Joe Biden “ Don’t worry that I sank the ship, just look how I’m managing the life boats!”
Yet another illustration of why we should leave and never have attempted to occupy and “nation build” a place like Afghanistan in the first place.
The Taliban are but one militant group attempting to control this complicated and diverse part of the Middle East. No matter who is president this struggle between various factions was inevitable with the American pull out.
This internal struggle and violence has only begun and was as predictable as the right wing media complex arm chair quarterbacking, blame gaming, and hyperbole we see and hear on the usual outlets....Fuax news, Newsmax, etc...
I’m sure the families of the 4 Marines confirmed killed give a fuck about the right wing, faux news spouted by the sycophants of this current leader who initiated this chaos w/ no apparent comprehension of what would ensue. These Marines are American put in harms way to try to guide Biden’s lifeboats w/ out any navigation. No comments from him as of 1:22pm today.
There are no happy endings with things like this. None of us want it, the answer can't be continued and forever presence in countries we don't belong risking more US lives in the process.
Biden and his administration has made miscalculations and mistakes. Show me one President and administration that hasn't. So many variables where planners are expecting and assuming one thing and then it can all change in a second. It's messy. It's tragic. Unfortunately it is the world the way it is.
I’m sure the families of the 4 Marines confirmed killed give a fuck about the right wing, faux news spouted by the sycophants of this current leader who initiated this chaos w/ no apparent comprehension of what would ensue. These Marines are American put in harms way to try to guide Biden’s lifeboats w/ out any navigation. No comments from him as of 1:22pm today.
A PM has been sent directly to this user but let this be a reminder to all that profanity of the type in the above post can lead to immediate removal from the website. Opinions and comments need not contain that type of profanity.
I’m sure the families of the 4 Marines confirmed killed give a fuck about the right wing, faux news spouted by the sycophants of this current leader who initiated this chaos w/ no apparent comprehension of what would ensue. These Marines are American put in harms way to try to guide Biden’s lifeboats w/ out any navigation. No comments from him as of 1:22pm today.
I couldn't agree more in that the families of these Marines care little about the right wing media complex......Many people know such a complex spouts mostly rubbish. As does a large part of the left wing media complex. No issue as complicated as Afghanistan can be whittled down to the 30 second sound bite culture dominated by 24 hours news channels.
Unfortunately this loss of life is a continuation of a very bad foreign policy decision made in 2002. Since then we've merely stalled what we're witnessing at present.
Biden no doubt bungled the initial pull out, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's doing what the majority of Americans want. I dare say most in the military itself support this pull out.
I predict in the coming years Biden will get credit for having the courage to do what three presidents before him couldn't. It perhaps will be the greatest achievement of his entire career as an elected official.
I predict in the coming years Biden will get credit for having the courage to do what three presidents before him couldn't. It perhaps will be the greatest achievement of his entire career as an elected official.
I predict you couldn't be more wrong. Leadership often times is refraining from what you WANT to do in order to do what us right. Both former Presidents wanted to get out but made the correct choices to not depart THIS way.
This is the single greatest Int'l blunder by the US in 50 years, and has vast int'l repercussions with our allies. How do you think Taiwan feels after watching these events that drugged speech.
Biden is doing what is right...Warts and all. To think we can garrison Afghanistan indefinitely for the sole purpose of preventing a civil war is lunacy. Frankly, America has no real strategic purpose to remain in Afghanistan.
As far as our allies are concerned, they too knew this day was inevitable and so could have better prepared for this chaos. For too long we have carried far, far too large a burden in trying to stabilize the Middle East for not only our allies, but the nations that border Afghanistan. Let the nations that border this paper nation take on the role of stabilizing the region.
As far as the biggest American foreign policy blunder in the past half century, that honor goes to the feet of George Bush and Dick Cheney for taking this nation into Iraq for a second time.
As far as the biggest American foreign policy blunder in the past half century, that honor goes to the feet of George Bush and Dick Cheney for taking this nation into Iraq for a second time.
Wow, you are a special kind of ignorant considering the 20 year anniversary of 09/11 is in 2 weeks.
As far as the biggest American foreign policy blunder in the past half century, that honor goes to the feet of George Bush and Dick Cheney for taking this nation into Iraq for a second time.
Wow, you are a special kind of ignorant considering the 20 year anniversary of 09/11 is in 2 weeks.
The pretext for the 2003 US Invasion of Iraq was in regards to compliance with UN weapons inspections, not 9/11. The W Administration never attempted to directly link Saddam to Al-Queda or 9/11 attacks. Colin Powell has since admitted that the information he presented to the UN was incorrect. Not saying we shouldn't have toppled Saddam, but the reasons had virtually nothing to do with 9/11 and more to do with fabricating an opportunity. But that's all old news now...
We invaded Afghanistan in 2001 with the aim to dismantle Al Queda who were responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
Invading Iraq had nothing to do with 911.....The irony is that by invading Iraq the Bush administration may very well have allowed the Taliban to survive beyond the initial success of the invasion of Afghanistan....Which was directly related to 911 since the architect of the attack on 911 was in fact in Afghanistan.....I don't know how anyone can't grasp this....So if my opinion is in fact ignorant as you say, Buckeye, then I'll gladly agree with you that i'm ignorant.
@Buckeye - Chain is one of the best members we have here. I don't always agree philosophically but I will 100% come to his defense, in no way shape or form is he ignorant on most any subject he engages in.
The invasion of Iraq was most certainly a mistake with the benefit of hindsight. Even without the benefit of hindsight, many questioned the motives at the time. I supported that invasion. Doesn't matter what I support, but I was wrong.
The United States has the best military intelligence and capability in the world. It has some flaws, but I trust it to do what intelligence and military should do. Our problem always lies with what do we do after the objectives are achieved, how do we end wars, we really don't win wars any more because what it takes to really really win a war is not popular or tolerable any more. So the military objectives can be achieved, but then what?
The United States can not and should not have military engagement in every country around the world that isn't friendly to us. We can not and should not support bases guarding various parts of the world when the countries in those regions should be doing it.
Debatable, some say this approach is successful in preventing global warfare. I see the argument. Frankly, if Pakistan and Afghanistan want war, let them have it. If China wants to retake Taiwan, so be it. The US has over extended ourselves ever since the end of WWll and I honestly question the net benefit. Global commerce has been good. Is that why we do it? Promote freedom and democracy around the world? We can not do for those who do not or can not do for themselves.
THIS way is not what the Biden administration wanted either. Variables change. Maybe unforeseen circumstances should have been foreseen. Fair. But you play the hand you are dealt.
I didn't vote for Biden, I didn't vote for Trump. And I think it is pretty clear to see that those who are politically aligned on one side have the knives out. I'm so damn sick and tired of this two American outlook, the one from the right and the one from the left. You and I and everyone here is not aware of all the particulars that go into this situation. There have been failures. There will be questions and there must be answers. But I support this President and what he is doing with regard to withdrawing from Afghanistan.
I agree we shouldn't be the world's 'cops' or nation build BUT we were attacked. Multiple times. 1000's died. This is not a symmetrical war against a uniformed foe. Fight them "there" or flight them "here". Not sure why this is so hard to grasp.
Pulling out of Afghanistan may have been correct, but how it was executed by this administration could not have been more poorly executed and people died. A weaker US in not a good thing as there is a very real evil that wants us converted or dead.
I agree we shouldn't be the world's 'cops' or nation build BUT we were attacked. Multiple times. 1000's died. This is not a symmetrical war against a uniformed foe. Fight them "there" or flight them "here". Not sure why this is so hard to grasp.
Pulling out of Afghanistan may have been correct, but how it was executed by this administration could not have been more poorly executed and people died. A weaker US in not a good thing as there is a very real evil that wants us converted or dead.
You are right and I do not disagree with the sentiment and have in fact myself used the fight them there rather than fight them here logic.
But who are we fighting in Afghanistan now? Should the US have troops on the ground in any number of countries in Africa and the middle east just because there might be a threat that at some point emerges in the future? Should we be everywhere we can, a physical presence? Legitimate question, and not necessarily a black and white one. Here is a better question. Would you support, 5000, 10000 or some number of thousand more troops to be sent to Afghanistan right now? You are entitled to any opinion you have and can state and defend such.
I think there comes a time where the US needs to pull up and go home. We should've done it in Germany, we should've done it in Korea. But we don't. And if you think these outposts are needed and necessary around the world, including Afghanistan, or in Iraq, you are not alone. I think it gets hard to justify and the wear and tear it takes on the military emotionally, physically and financially reaches a point of a questionable plan.
The Biden administration has made mistakes. Mistakes at this level are deadly. That is part of it. I think that I have a different outlook than you because while it should've and could've been done better, I don't know if any other administration might've done it better. Maybe they do it worse, then what? It's messy. It's difficult. And it is easy to second guess.
There are many threats to the US around the world and at home. We had chances to get Bin Laden, we didn't. Our intelligence is more aware of threats than I am. All I can do is defer to them and hope they recognize and act accordingly to thwart any global threats to US lives and property. I don't think staying in Afghanistan is a necessary means to that end. I continue to have faith in our military and intelligence agencies and they will get it right much more than they will miss and they will be able to protect America without America in Afghanistan.
I think there comes a time where the US needs to pull up and go home. We should've done it in Germany, we should've done it in Korea. But we don't. And if you think these outposts are needed and necessary around the world, including Afghanistan, or in Iraq, you are not alone. I think it gets hard to justify and the wear and tear it takes on the military emotionally, physically and financially reaches a point of a questionable plan.
There are strategic reasons (quick military response) and other reason for maintaining bases. We don't have the intel justifying where/why, but this withdrawal was tragically poorly planned/executed.
After 8 hours of silence, that speech was a frightening display. He is obviously getting poor counsel and is of diminished mental capacity. I fear for all of us...Who do you think is really in charge?
Thanks for the kind words Nebish. I feel the same about you and others on this site in that we all have interesting insights and observations about many topics. Even if we disagree I still learn a great deal about all manner of subjects from you and many other bright posters. It's why I still come here years after the band the site is named after has ended. I appreciate that many far brighter folks than I, you included, have taught me a great deal about many things simply by reading your posts.
Buckeye, no one in this thread disagrees that Biden has bungled this pullout very badly. We've all stated this in this thread and the other one titled "Afghanistan." I also see common agreement that the United States in this century no longer can play the role of the world's police. The reasons for this are numerous, but the three of us: you, Nebish, me, are in agreement on this.
Biden, for all his faults, felt the same in 2009 when Obama authorized a second surge. Biden did not support this effort and publicly stated so even then. He knew then it was a fools errand to stay in Afghanistan much less attempt a surge based around the concept of counter-insurgency.
One last thing, maintaining and supplying over 750 bases around the world is not only incredibly expensive, but serves no strategic purpose in many cases. It's not 1965 or 1999 or even 2010. Our enemies no longer need to even be close to us or our allies we've protected for 75 years in order to inflict significant damage to America or those allies. Cyber warfare and interconnected communications have changed the entire paradigm of modern warfare. It's time we leave this legacy of countless forward bases behind.
I think there comes a time where the US needs to pull up and go home. We should've done it in Germany, we should've done it in Korea. But we don't. And if you think these outposts are needed and necessary around the world, including Afghanistan, or in Iraq, you are not alone. I think it gets hard to justify and the wear and tear it takes on the military emotionally, physically and financially reaches a point of a questionable plan.
There are strategic reasons (quick military response) and other reason for maintaining bases. We don't have the intel justifying where/why, but this withdrawal was tragically poorly planned/executed.
After 8 hours of silence, that speech was a frightening display. He is obviously getting poor counsel and is of diminished mental capacity. I fear for all of us...Who do you think is really in charge?
I'm not the person to give you what you want on your final question.
They said Dick Cheney was in charge. George Bush was the President. They said nobody was in charge...Donald Trump was the President. They say that Joe Biden can't possibly be mentally fit to be in charge, Joe Biden is the President. That is what it is for me. Anything else is conjecture at best and lies at worst. Joe Biden's experience and knowledge on international affairs, relationships and conflicts is an asset. Doesn't mean he is infallible, but it puts the planning further ahead than a less experienced leader. And yes, his age and how a 78 year old processes and analyzes all that knowledge and information can be and frankly is at times concerning. I'm not the one to play games and pretend there is somebody behind the curtain. Every President has assistants and handlers, but I believe that Joe Biden is in charge, just as Donald Trump was in charge as was Barack Obama and George Bush. People predisposed to not like and be ideologically against a given President will find the reinforcement they seek whether it is always true or not.
Presidents give directives. They say what they want. They don't, and I don't think should, say how to do it. There are hundreds of nameless and faceless people behind the scenes in the White House, in the Pentagon and at command centers everywhere that make it happen using their own knowledge and experience in their given specialties. The President will get blame or credit for something gone wrong or success, but in reality a lot more goes into it than that. That is the way it is though and I think people especially at the highest level of politics accepts it for what it is. President Biden says he bears responsibility for everything that has happened. Would our last President have said that if something went wrong on his watch? Don't need to answer because that answer is well known.
If the exact-same actions taken by this administration in Afghanistan, that people find so praise-worthy, had been taken by the previous one, those same people would be singing a Very different tune
sympathetically worded support & understanding now, would previously have rendered one a minion/disciple/syncophant blah blah
Pelosi & other dickhead politicians would have been clamoring for impeachment
the previous president would have been called a war mongering scumbag, just for starters
but enough of all that, that was then, this is now, time for a glass of the Instant Smile the new administration has given America “that the previous administration brutally denied Americans & others over four horrible years of totalitarian rule…”
& other such drivel
unbelievable
with malice toward none - am neither Republican or Democrat, just an American telling the truth as I see it - who tries to be supportive no matter who is president - never-once resorted to trashing people, never would & am not now
thankful the poisonous bile that Trump elicited, is no more - am not saying he should’ve been exempt from criticism or not held accountable, but this was unfair & there was no reason for it
Buckeye, no one in this thread disagrees that Biden has bungled this pullout very badly. We've all stated this in this thread and the other one titled "Afghanistan." I also see common agreement that the United States in this century no longer can play the role of the world's police. The reasons for this are numerous, but the three of us: you, Nebish, me, are in agreement on this.
chain, you seem like a good dude. I apologize if I came on too strong; I will always fiercely defend my faith, family, and country.
Where is the balance between not going isolationist (pre WW1) and being the world's cop? I don't know, but nature abhors a vacuum and if we don't take a leadership role, then our enemies will. Most disturbing is watching us devolve into an oligarchy and most people are too blind or distracted to see it.
Take care
@Stephen, I see a stark difference in how some media is reporting and I, and you know full well, how they would've reported previously. Now, a lot goes into that, Trump earned a lot, A LOT, of bad-will which did influence some of the way in which his administration was covered. The other part of it was the media generally dislikes Republicans and offers a harsher more cynical lens when covering such. On the other hand, if you listen to Fox, I don't think they are covering the current President very fairly either. So it goes both ways.
Regardless, everyone believes aspects of this withdrawal have been botched. You are right, exactly how they express that is different for many people depending on how one feels about who is the current President.
No need to apologize, buckeye....You're clearly passionate about your opinions and so am I. I respect that actually. As I suggested earlier, we, like probably most Americans, agree more on many issues then we probably realize.
As Nebish mentioned earlier, we've become so tribal as a nation that we fail to realize this commonality and agreement. It too often get's lost. Somewhere along the line we've lost our ability to empathize with people we have actually more in common with than we disagree with.
To your very good question about a proper balance between isolationism and strategic military presence, I wish I knew. But I think this nation needs another BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) process that is targeted toward base closures that aren't in the United States but specific to foreign bases exclusively. That would be a good start. Although, politics and profit would, I think, inevitably enter the picture as has been the case in past BRAC efforts.
One thing I give Obama and Trump credit for is that they both pressured our allies around the world to start taking responsibility for and spending more on their own defense. That would be a good thing to continue. There's no reason wealthy and large economic powerhouses like Great Britain, France, Germany, and Japan can't take on a larger role militarily. It's not 1945 anymore, let them take on a greater burden.
I would add India, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, etc. to this list as it pertains to Central Asia and the Middle East.
