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Why is everyone still manic about Covid?  

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wearly89
(@wearly89)
Member

About 2.5% of Americans have tested positive - about 8.78 million people - with 226000 deaths. According to CDC stats, 90% of the “cases” or positive test results don’t have enough of the virus to transmit to another human. Also, CDC stats indicate that 94% of the 226000 deaths had “other contributing factors”, so how many of those people would’ve died anyway if they never had the covid virus? Conversely, only 6% of all the deaths are solely attributable to covid. The overwhelming majority of infected people have moderate to no symptoms and there are now effective treatments even at the severe stages of the virus. 

Just seems to me that this is a relatively low risk factor condition compared to all the other things that can go wrong in your life. I’m sure glad I’m not in a locked down state where I’d be going broke and unable to take care of my family. 

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Posted : October 27, 2020 1:21 am
Rusty
(@rusty)
Peach Extraordianire

226,000 deaths.  That doesn't answer your question?

I'm extremely happy for you since you apparently haven't had a case or death among your own family or loved ones.  Congratulations on this.  

Russian Roulette is played with only one bullet in a six round cylinder.  The odds of losing are only one in 6 (15% chance?  My math sucks these days) - yet, not a lot of sane people are dying (pun?) to play.

I've had several cases in my family.  Two deaths - one a close friend (and fellow Peach Head), another - the husband of a close associate.  I'm not feeling your particular brand of luck, I guess.

Some folks (like you) point out the age or "underlying condition" of many who contract and perish from the virus.  I know many people who are older and less healthy than I am who still make valuable contributions to society daily. 

I have an 82 year old aunt whom I take care of daily.  She's still got all her smarts about her.  She had a large hand in raising me.  She points out stuff to me all the time that I might have missed without the advantage of her years of wisdom.  In addition to 82 birthdays, she has Lupus and Diabetes.  Using a baseball analogy, she's got two strikes and four foul balls.

"Underlying conditions"?  I have a very young grand-niece.  Freakish little thing!  One of those who were speaking in complete sentences by the time she was 18 months old!  She's about 12 now - could probably kick your a$$ in Trigonometry, Calculus and other deep math.  Probably reads more books in a month than you do in a year.  She suffers from an illness that I can't spell or pronounce that makes it impossible for her to digest most foods.  A good bit of her nutrition comes through a feeding tube - yet, she's among the happiest souls you'd ever meet.  Because of all this, she is susceptible to pretty much every cold, virus or germ that comes her way. 

I'd hate to know that I was the asymptomatic carrier that brought a deadly virus to either of these two amazing people - or to anybody that I don't even know.

According to your logic, people like these are sacrifice-able.  Is that what I'm hearing?

I hope your lucky streak stays in tact.

 

Peace.

RB

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Posted : October 27, 2020 8:55 am
cyclone88, Randall, DOVETAIL and 1 people liked
DOVETAIL
(@dovetail)
Extreme Peach
Posted by: @wearly89

About 2.5% of Americans have tested positive - about 8.78 million people - with 226000 deaths. According to CDC stats, 90% of the “cases” or positive test results don’t have enough of the virus to transmit to another human. Also, CDC stats indicate that 94% of the 226000 deaths had “other contributing factors”, so how many of those people would’ve died anyway if they never had the covid virus? Conversely, only 6% of all the deaths are solely attributable to covid. The overwhelming majority of infected people have moderate to no symptoms and there are now effective treatments even at the severe stages of the virus. 

Just seems to me that this is a relatively low risk factor condition compared to all the other things that can go wrong in your life. I’m sure glad I’m not in a locked down state where I’d be going broke and unable to take care of my family. 

Comments like this reaffirm my growing realization the U.S. may very well be the most  spoiled, insensitive and selfish country on Planet Earth. I'm no mathematician, but I can comprehend the correlation between % of deaths and total cases, not to mention the mortality rate, (pre-existing conditions or not); if those numbers alone don't awaken more than just a mere modicum of  caution, then I might suggest the head(s) in question aren't just stuck in the sand, but in an otherwise anatomically-compromised position!?!

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Posted : October 27, 2020 9:55 am
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
World Class Peach

Well put, @Rusty

A small percentage of a lot of people is still a lot of people. I grew up in a city of about 250K people, that's not a percentage to me. And those number are just "so far" - remember when it was 100K deaths?

People with cancer, AIDS, or other afflictions often die from other complications due to their weakened state. They still wouldn't have died had it not been for cancer or what have you. One of my wife's co-workers had diabetes and died of COVID last month - she was in her 40s and left behind an 8 year-old daughter. She would not have died had it not been for COVID.

People keep forgetting that one of the primary reasons to curb the spread is because our hospitals couldn't handle such an influx of cases on top of what they already deal with on a daily basis. It's a domino effect - more COVID cases means others afflicted get less attention or moved to another facility. My wife's uncle had a stroke in April and had to be re-routed upstate. A friend of mine had to have major lung surgery and was forced to move to Atlanta because Arizona was too busy with COVID cases for her to be able to safely recover.

Yes, it absolutely sucks some businesses have been hit harder due to the nature of the virus, just as people afflicted have been. But taking precautions is not mania, it's a respect for the possible danger. We are far more prepared than we were in March, but it's still spreading and people are still dying.

 

 

 

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Posted : October 27, 2020 10:30 am
Rusty
(@rusty)
Peach Extraordianire

@porkchopbob - So sorry to hear of your misfortunes.  Yeah - a lot of people might/would survive in their current "underlying conditions" for many years to come if they don't contract this virus.  Sadly, it's just not real for some until it lands close to (their) home.

The son of one of my life-long friends is a Covid nurse.  He has traveled all over the U.S. (and beyond) taking care of nothing but Covid/Corona patients.  He has some heartbreaking stories.  I won't go into great detail, but dying face-down while entubed (sp?) with no loved ones near you - just ain't no way to go.  

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Posted : October 27, 2020 10:39 am
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
World Class Peach

@rusty totally understand, it's unnerving how quickly some people (President included) are willing to offer up those weaker just so they can go to a party. A good friend mine was working as a nurse in an NYC hospital last Spring and went through the same thing. Her phone calls were heartbreaking. And she's tough - she worked in emergency rooms in Youngstown and pediatric surgery, she's seen it all but working COVID was devastating.

 

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Posted : October 27, 2020 10:58 am
Rusty liked
wearly89
(@wearly89)
Member

@rusty

  • If you’re in a high risk category or in the company of someone at risk, definitely protect yourself. And my sincere condolences for the loss of your family members as well. Nevertheless, if you’re a critical thinker and able to remove your politics from your analysis, 2.5% of Americans have tested positive, 2.5% of the “cases” have died, 75% of the deaths are over age 65 and 75% of those are over age 75. It’s very easy to treat even the most serious cases now. For this you want millions of people to lose their businesses and put people out of work? For children to get behind in their education or even remain uneducated? Rising alcoholism and domestic abuse? 
  • call me insensitive if you wish, but it seems very plausible to me to focus assets to protect people who are at high risk for COVID, while still opening up our economy and going back to a more normal life. If the rest of you want to needlessly quake in fear over something that’s really not what it’s hyped up to be, fare thee well.
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Posted : October 27, 2020 1:04 pm
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Peach Extraordianire

I've read nothing political in this thread. It's based on first hand experience as well as medical & epidemiological facts.

When Covid19 first arrived in the US when we knew nothing about it, there was speculation that there was a specific "vulnerable population" - people over 60 w/underlying conditions. That was wrong. What we now know is that NO ONE IS IMMUNE. Infants, children, teens, adults (old & young), and the elderly, including the POTUS, are all susceptible to this virus. What we also know now is that Covid19 LEAVES RESIDUAL EFFECTS - including neurological, cardiac, endocrinological, ophthamological, & renal conditions. Only time will indicate how permanent the damage is.

There is no vaccine. There is no treatment available to the general population other that standard respiratory & viral therapies; there are medication & antibody therapies given to patients who have given their informed consent in clinical trials & some tightly controlled exceptions that must be approved in specific cases. There has never been a declaration of "easy treatment" by any government, medical, or academic agency.

Moreover, this is a global virus - a pandemic. Not one country has announced successful preventative or treatment advances & many had a head start on the US. Countries & certain regions in the US have pulled back after attempting to re-open to pre-pandemic standards. 

Economic & educational activity hasn't halted in the US; it's being delivered in a new form. People who are following the clinical guidelines known prevent spread of the virus - mask wearing, social distancing, & hand washing are acting reasonably & prudently. They are not "quaking in fear." 

This post was modified 1 month ago by cyclone88
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Posted : October 27, 2020 2:02 pm
Rusty
(@rusty)
Peach Extraordianire

@wearly89  First of all, thanks for being civil on your end.  Where do you live where everything isn't opened?  Here on the Georgia coast (all over Georgia, Florida ...) pretty much EVERYTHING is opened back to full capacity - thanks in no small part to Governors "Simp" (Georgia) and "DeSATAN" (Florida).  The only things that I know of that are not open to maximum capacity are the football stadiums.  If DeSantis had his way, this would already have been done.  

Neither of these Gov's are willing to look anybody in the face and tell them that these dine-eat eateries, bars and even minimal football crowds are SAFE.  They just won't do it!  They're leaving it up to anybody who's willing to take personal risks to stabilize their economies.  

For the reasons I've already given, I am willing to wait for the vaccine - hopefully, by year's end.  I do support several of the mom and pop restaurants with take-out orders.  

Lastly, I honestly believe you should be leery of your own statistics.  Wishful thinking by certain politicos only SUGGEST that numbers are going down.  In actuality, they seem to be on a steady incline.   

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Posted : October 27, 2020 2:03 pm
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
World Class Peach

Nevertheless, if you’re a critical thinker and able to remove your politics from your analysis, 2.5% of Americans have tested positive, 2.5% of the “cases” have died, 75% of the deaths are over age 65 and 75% of those are over age 75.

I see you're a "death is half full" type. That's 25% of people under 65. Percentages are still people. That's 2.5% of people so far. That's still a lot of people. Statistics are people. My 73 year-old mother has asthma, sorry for the inconvenience. She's trying very hard to keep from being one of the lambs to an over-hyped virus.

The economy isn't a switch to be turned on and off, that's an oversimplification. Folks are just trying to protect themselves and each other, and our medical professionals. Many of those who died were unable to breath and died alone. It's not fear, it's a healthy respect for a present threat. Most of us have been able to adapt, including K12 education. Other nations were able to cope with safety measures.

But if the economy is such a concern, you can always volunteer at a hospital or medical facility to help protect those high-risk people who are holding you back.

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Posted : October 27, 2020 2:03 pm
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
World Class Peach

Just to put the percentages in another perspective, US casualties during over 15 years of the Vietnam conflict were 58K.

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Posted : October 27, 2020 3:40 pm
Rusty and cyclone88 liked
Sang
 Sang
(@sang)
World Class Peach

An 18-year old kid from a nearby suburb just died from covid - was at the University of Dayton.   No underlying conditions.  I pretty much tune out anybody that says to 'stop living in fear'.  My oldest son's girlfriend had it - got it from the owner of the restaurant/bar she is working at while going to nursing school - luckily just had some body aches and was eventually able to go back to school.  My youngest son just had it - lost his sense of taste and smell - got it from a roommate who worked at a restaurant that was asymptomatic.   He has regained taste and smell, but has not been retested yet.

Illinois was doing pretty well at containing things - but the numbers have just exploded after they opened things up again (even with limited capacities) over the last couple of weeks.  They are shutting down indoor dining again in all of the Chicago suburbs.  I for one am informed about what is going on, I am not 'living in fear', even though I will be 65 next month and I am overweight.  I am being cautious - I would like to live to watch my son get married .... 

I read too much social media, and I am horrified at the stupidity that people actually put on display everyday in this country.  The local papers all report the numbers everyday - number of positive tests, positivity factor, number of tests, number in the hospital, numbers on ventilators.  Just read the comments from people who have to go online everyday and show how stupid they are.  They don't read the whole article and don't understand the numbers, but love to mention rioters, looters, how rich and fat our governor is for trying to protect them, etc.  It's enough to lose hope in humanity.   Think I need to go on a Facebook hiatus ....

 

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Posted : October 27, 2020 4:47 pm
cyclone88, JodyGirl, Rusty and 1 people liked
Jerry
(@jerry)
Peach Extraordianire

Remember when i posted about my brother-in-law?  He was in intensive care for several days until he got stable, got the experimental treatments (what treatment for Covid-19 isn't "experimental").  he still can only work a few hours a day (at a desk), has to have supplemental oxygen, and has last week been ruled able to drive himself around.  Still has lesions in his legs, and sometimes has difficulty breathing.

My son and daughter tested positive and self quarantined.  Both said it wasn't really much worse that an average cold except for the really sore throat.

Some get over it quickly, some not so much.  Protecting yourself from/to others is the only way we have to battle this right now.  Careful is as careful does should be the mantra for these days.

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Posted : October 27, 2020 6:35 pm
cyclone88 and Rusty liked
amyjared
(@amyjared)
Extreme Peach
Posted by: @wearly89

For this you want millions of people to lose their businesses and put people out of work? For children to get behind in their education or even remain uneducated? Rising alcoholism and domestic abuse? 

I don't know anyone who wants these things?  Nor do I even know if the numbers are correct.  But compared to people losing their lives, it sounds feasible.  I mean, if you lose your business, you can start another one.  If you lose your job, you can find another one.  If you lose your life, it's much harder.  We could also provide more stimulus relief like many other countries are doing for those who become unemployed, but we've chosen not to?  I mean, if it comes to your grandparent, parent, sibling, child, etc. losing their life so someone could stay in business, does that work for you?

As for children getting behind in their education, as a teacher, we are doing everything we can to prevent this.  Learning takes place in many ways and on many levels.  Education is still being given, just via different vehicles.  I am working much harder on Distance Learning than I did in the classroom.  I have to.  My students are worth it.  

Rising alcoholism and abuse?  It seems that you are throwing out these buzz words to try to "scare" people onto your side of the argument?  I think people here have made succinct rebuttals and I too, appreciate the cordial nature of this discussion.  Stay healthy and safe!  

 

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Posted : October 27, 2020 7:08 pm
wearly89
(@wearly89)
Member

No sense arguing with an idiot too stupid to even consider the statistical evidence. Are you also a member of the flat earth society?

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Posted : October 27, 2020 10:21 pm
Sang
 Sang
(@sang)
World Class Peach

Not sure who you are talking too.  Math major here, focus on stats.  Tell whatever you have to say about stats to the 18 year old kid that just died.   As porkchopbob said the difference is you see numbers and we see PEOPLE.   Good luck with your crusade.

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Posted : October 28, 2020 12:09 am
BIGV
 BIGV
(@bigv)
World Class Peach
Posted by: @rusty

226,000 deaths.  That doesn't answer your question?

 

 

 

To all of you preachers of science, show us undisputable facts that each and everyone of the fatalities are related solely to Covid. 

Do you really for an instant believe that wearing a mask for another two years, is the answer? That a Federally enforceable mandate is the road you want to travel?

Careful what you wish for.

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Posted : October 28, 2020 12:54 am
stormyrider
(@stormyrider)
Peach Extraordianire

I’ve seen the data about co existing conditions and only very few die of Covid alone. If you look at what the other illnesses were, the most common are pneumonia, respiratory failure, cardiac failure, multi organ system failure, sepsis. Guess what- those are all complications of Covid. 

I have had the unfortunate task of filling out many death certificates. I don’t think I ever listed 1 cause. It’s typically something like cardiac arrest due to heart failure and atherosclerotic heart disease. 

Covid can be deadly. Or you can survive and be debilitated. The number of those people is currently unknown. I’ve seen it as have others on this thread and I remain very cautious 

This post was modified 1 month ago by stormyrider
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Posted : October 28, 2020 7:37 am
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Peach Extraordianire

@amyjared

Thank you for your perspective as a teacher that education has NOT disappeared; it's merely being delivered in a different format. Distance learning isn't some half-baked idea that was thought up due to Covid; it's a delivery system that has been in use for more than 2 decades for college, university, & continuing education. Time/resources should've been & still could be spent preparing teachers, students, & administration - including access to computers & other resources - for this rather than hand-wringing over reconfiguring buildings, student schedule shifts, overworking custodial/cleaning staff, & demanding that teachers also become distance monitors so things can return to "normal."

I do disagree w/your assessment of this being a civil thread where posters are being called stupid & idiots who quake in fear.

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Posted : October 28, 2020 8:35 am
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Peach Extraordianire

@sang

I don't wish anyone luck on a crusade to ignore science & known preventative measures in favor of recklessly sacrificing lives - whether it's 25% under 65 or 75% over 65 from some untitled, undated source - because their work & social lives have been disrupted. 

The fearmonger is the one that's citing Covid as the cause of domestic abuse, alcoholism, & ignorance. 

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Posted : October 28, 2020 8:50 am
Rusty
(@rusty)
Peach Extraordianire

V - if you want to pick pepper outta $hit, go ahead and do so.

Quite often when people die ... of anything - there are often numerous ... 'extracurricular" circumstances involved.  I've known a couple of folks who died MAINLY because they had HIV.  Their death certificate named (for instance) Pneumonia as the CAUSE of death.  Again, Covid exasperates the "underlying cause".  To iterate, the people (that I know about) would've probably lived a longer life with their "underlying issues" (COPD, Emphysema, Diabetes, even HIV) had they not been exposed to Covid.  Using yet another analogy - it's just like dousing a flaming house with gasoline.  

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Posted : October 28, 2020 8:55 am
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
World Class Peach

There's "cause of death" and "contributing factors". If someone has diabetes and contracts COVID, the latter is the cause and the former is the contributing factor.

I'm not sure why some people are so eager to minimize the situation, without any evidence to the contrary. All you have to do is talk to a nurse or a doctor or a widow to hear the reality. Hospitals aren't filling up because of bronchitis. WI just built a hospital on its State Fair Grounds. The entire planet is dealing with this, not just the US. That would have to be some conspiracy. We can compare responses - New Zealand has aggressively shut down and has very few cases. Canada disbursed $2000/month stimulus to keep residents and businesses afloat. Masks are not what people in the US should be upset about. If you haven't yet been affected, you should be thankful rather than butt hurt that your concerts got canceled.

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Posted : October 28, 2020 8:57 am
Rusty liked
Stephen
(@stephen)
Peach Extraordianire
Posted by: @stormyrider

I’ve seen the data about co existing conditions and only very few die of Covid alone. If you look at what the other illnesses were, the most common are pneumonia, respiratory failure, cardiac failure, multi organ system failure, sepsis. Guess what- those are all complications of Covid. 

I have had the unfortunate task of filling out many death certificates. I don’t think I ever listed 1 cause. It’s typically something like cardiac arrest due to heart failure and atherosclerotic heart disease. 

Covid can be deadly. Or you can survive and be debilitated. The number of those people is currently unknown. I’ve seen it as have others on this thread and I remain very cautious 

This is how I look at it as well - I’ve yet to see a news headline that didn’t say:

”Covid deaths soaring”

”Covid positive tests set one day record”

”Covid jamming hospitals, causing alarm as infection spreads” 

it dawned on me that most who are said to have passed on from it, had other infirmities & likely would’ve passed on regardless 

It simply doesn’t make sense that it’s always reported to be spreading like wildfire - nor that wearing masks will help contain it - masks have proven virtually useless, again, IF what the media reports is accurate 

there’s a political element to cv 19 imo - lack of trustworthy information has not helped

 

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Posted : October 28, 2020 9:02 am
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
World Class Peach

masks have proven virtually useless

The doctors and nurses who are treating COVID patients on a daily basis would disagree. Even though it is far less likely, it is still possible to die in an automobile accident while wearing a seat belt.

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Posted : October 28, 2020 9:20 am
jszfunk
(@jszfunk)
World Class Peach

It will be interesting to see where all this will end up at.....even if it does. I have worked in the medical field for my whole adult life. When it first came down about 7-8 mons it really hit hard in the hospital where I work. A little scary at first. We are starting to see more cases come in over the last month. It will be interesting to see when the flu bug starts hitting . It may not be quite as bad due to all the masks,social distancing and the other precautions we are taking. The covid symptoms I have witnessed lately appear to be very mild to pretty rough. We have had a few that where all gastrointestinal , nothing respiratory at all. People test negative one day, get tested again a few days later, they got it. Some folk tested multiple times, nothing.

Numbers facts, figures can be thrown out to support all aspects of the impact of this virus. So make whatever you want out of it.

Personally, I dont know what to think anymore. I take my precautions at work in the clinical setting and in public, but I am not letting it control my life either. People just need to be smart,use common sense.

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Posted : October 28, 2020 9:33 am
Stephen
(@stephen)
Peach Extraordianire

Should add that trustworthy, accountable information in reporting on a brand new, and quite fluid, situation such as CV, is challenging, perhaps not even possible, & that blaming should have no place in it - we all want to live normal lives again

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Posted : October 28, 2020 9:58 am
stormyrider
(@stormyrider)
Peach Extraordianire
Posted by: @stephen
Posted by: @stormyrider

I’ve seen the data about co existing conditions and only very few die of Covid alone. If you look at what the other illnesses were, the most common are pneumonia, respiratory failure, cardiac failure, multi organ system failure, sepsis. Guess what- those are all complications of Covid. 

I have had the unfortunate task of filling out many death certificates. I don’t think I ever listed 1 cause. It’s typically something like cardiac arrest due to heart failure and atherosclerotic heart disease. 

Covid can be deadly. Or you can survive and be debilitated. The number of those people is currently unknown. I’ve seen it as have others on this thread and I remain very cautious 

This is how I look at it as well - I’ve yet to see a news headline that didn’t say:

”Covid deaths soaring”

”Covid positive tests set one day record”

”Covid jamming hospitals, causing alarm as infection spreads” 

it dawned on me that most who are said to have passed on from it, had other infirmities & likely would’ve passed on regardless 

It simply doesn’t make sense that it’s always reported to be spreading like wildfire - nor that wearing masks will help contain it - masks have proven virtually useless, again, IF what the media reports is accurate 

there’s a political element to cv 19 imo - lack of trustworthy information has not helped

 

You said this is how I look at it but then missed the point

these people didn’t have pneumonia or respiratory failure or cardiac failure or sepsis before they got Covid. They got Covid and died of those other things that Covid caused. They all get put on the death certificate because that’s how it’s done

there actually is data saying that masks are helpful. They are not perfect 

the major hospitals in Boston cut work related transmission from > 100 cases to near zero since mandating that everyon wears masks at all times (initially masks were only worn dealing with suspected or confirmed cases). There are other articles in the medical literature demonstrating the benefit of masks. The studies are imperfect (not double blind, randomized etc) but pretty convincing. 

if you think Covid is fake or exaggerated- I will gladly forward you the TOC of major medical journals discussing the international experience with it. The topic has dominated the literature since February

This post was modified 1 month ago by stormyrider
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Posted : October 28, 2020 10:13 am
BIGV
 BIGV
(@bigv)
World Class Peach
Posted by: @rusty

V - if you want to pick pepper outta $hit, go ahead and do so.

Quite often when people die ... of anything - there are often numerous ... 'extracurricular" circumstances involved.  I've known a couple of folks who died MAINLY because they had HIV.  Their death certificate named (for instance) Pneumonia as the CAUSE of death.  Again, Covid exasperates the "underlying cause".  To iterate, the people (that I know about) would've probably lived a longer life with their "underlying issues" (COPD, Emphysema, Diabetes, even HIV) had they not been exposed to Covid.  Using yet another analogy - it's just like dousing a flaming house with gasoline.  

Nice intro.

"Underlying issues"...Which ones? Are there "Underlying issues" when one is struck by a car? Or was the impact the sole cause of death? How about Electrocution

"Mainly"

Do you believe the 200,000+ number to be accurate?

I am done with this thing. No more masks. not for another two years, or months. Let the business owner decide. No more lockdowns or ridiculous "Mandates" about having your mask on while you chew your food outside. No more masks while walking down an empty street by yourself.

 

Madness 

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Posted : October 28, 2020 10:41 am
Stephen
(@stephen)
Peach Extraordianire

I read your post to say that that the other infirmities you mentioned, often play a part in covid deaths 

I don’t believe CV itself is fake - do believe the casualties associated w/it are exaggerated - also that the benefit of masks are slim or none - not when this thing is running as rampant/amok as all the experts say it is - am real glad they had the opposite effect in the major Boston hospitals

would like to believe the sketchy info is legitimately b/c it’s as new to ‘the experts’ as it is to everyone 

 

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Posted : October 28, 2020 10:42 am
stormyrider
(@stormyrider)
Peach Extraordianire

The other infirmities I mentioned are caused by Covid 

yes, being elderly and having severe medical issues put you at higher risk for Covid complications (and everything else)

Covid causes pneumonia, it causes shock, it causes respiratory and cardiac failure. Not the other way around

 

that I know of, there were no election s in Italy or Spain, and those countries got ravaged in February and March. 

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Posted : October 28, 2020 11:05 am
cyclone88 liked
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