I am all for people getting vaccinated. That said, I am not into this vaccinated people get to go here and unvaccinated people don't. I have my card, I'm not taking it with me anywhere. We do want to go to a baseball game Indians or Pirates in June. Not sure how that is going to go. I'm not going to be all like 'I'm vaccinated show me preferential treatment' I will not be taking my card anywhere and anywhere that requires proof of vaccination I will just choose not to attend. If you aren't vaccinated, then bad on you. I did my part. I've bought tickets to 3 concerts and no mention of any vaccination requirements to attend or special seating. This was the end game, it's here now.
I work in a hospital.
If you think your 'magic belief' system protects you from covid you need to install a brain.
We've seen family members hospitalized unable toto say goodbye to their loved ones in person. They say the goodbye of a lifetime over FaceTime. They lie in the ICU and know their spouse is dying alone in another room.
They had no idea they had the virus and got 9 of 10 family members at the grandson's graduation party. Grandpa died. The pregnant daughter nearly lost the born with covid premie baby. I won't forget a nurse going down the hall saying 'we need more body bags'. I won't forget the lady who went home with a trach hoping it could come out off she could just breathe better. She still can't walk more than 3 blocks without getting winded
People who don't die and may not have bad symptoms sometimes just don't get well and are left with long haul covid. They lose their jobs. They can't think. They have no energy. They're are risk for strokes, and they have them! 🙁
I may get thrown off this board for asking why you selfish assholes pass up a vaccine with a hell of a lot less side effects than covid so you can run your bully pulpit on the rest of us?
You cost us our loved ones and our lives, our livelihoods.
And when you get sick you want the best medical care that you turned your backs on so you could have your utterly selfish and completely Batshit choice. I'd like to see you all sign a form stating you don't want care from any hospital, doctor or clinic. And then don't come to the ER. You made your choice, your fearful, mewling, pants pissing choice but you don't have the backbone to even stick to it.
Polio was eradicated because of a vaccine. Well that was back when getting sick was bad for you and vaccines were good for you.
Now i think I'll spin some dead and allmans because the non existant microchip i got has yet to ward off 5G or interfere with the rest of my life as it has been.
I am all for people getting vaccinated. That said, I am not into this vaccinated people get to go here and unvaccinated people don't. I have my card, I'm not taking it with me anywhere. We do want to go to a baseball game Indians or Pirates in June. Not sure how that is going to go. I'm not going to be all like 'I'm vaccinated show me preferential treatment' I will not be taking my card anywhere and anywhere that requires proof of vaccination I will just choose not to attend. If you aren't vaccinated, then bad on you. I did my part. I've bought tickets to 3 concerts and no mention of any vaccination requirements to attend or special seating. This was the end game, it's here now.
Just over a year ago, people accepted that the only way to slow/stop the pandemic was a vaccine. There was a race to create, produce, & distribute it. Masking, hand washing, & social distancing were the short-term solutions. The country shut down.
In the interim, vaccines & masks became political issues due to misinformation, conspiracy theories, & ignorance. The CDC predicts the US will never reach the 70-75% vaccination rate needed to achieve the goal of herd immunity because anti-vaxxing became an "issue" not a medical solution.
We're in the early stages of opening up. To a reasonable business owner, a vaccinated person is a safe customer/patron. To reasonable attendees, a vaccinated person is a safe person to socialize with or sit next to. These factors will shake out over time & will be influenced by what insurers, landlords, & operating financing require of specific businesses. Taking a stand of boycotting businesses that give preferential treatment to the vaccinated is harsh, especially when we don't know nor should we know the reasons behind the business owner's policy.
Baseball stadiums are outdoors & we've been told being outside w/o masks is safe as of yesterday so this isn't the best example of a conundrum.
My take is keep a photo of proof of vaccination on your phone & produce it when asked. If we've learned anything in 2020 it's that ALL of us are affected when only 50% of us comply w/fact-based regulations. As someone (I can't remember who) said this week, we can't debate solutions if we're down in the mud wrestling whether a fact is a fact.
@cylone88, do you have a legal opinion on what a ruling might be if an unvaccinated person sued a business for discrimination? Making up an example, Walt Disney World is only allowing entry to their park to people who could show proof of vaccination. What might the courts say there?
I may get thrown off this board for asking why you selfish assholes pass up a vaccine with a hell of a lot less side effects than covid so you can run your bully pulpit on the rest of us?
Who on this board has said they aren't getting vaccinated? I don't think anyone posting here has said that.
@cylone88, do you have a legal opinion on what a ruling might be if an unvaccinated person sued a business for discrimination? Making up an example, Walt Disney World is only allowing entry to their park to people who could show proof of vaccination. What might the courts say there?
Whew! It's the weekend plus Disney already is wrestling with their latest theme park ride Snow White not giving consent to Prince Charming to kiss her. Did he sexually assault her? Should they keep the ride?
The law is struggling to keep up w/ramifications of Covid in many areas, including vaccinations. All 50 states have some sort of legislation being drafted & federal rules cover a lot. Most of the questions are related to employment (can employers require employees to be vaccinated?) and less so for entry (can Disneyland only admit vaccinated).
Employment is fairly easy. Yes, private businesses can have a policy that divides vaxxed v. non-vaxxed but it has to treat every single person in each group the same way. A policy could be the in-office employees have to be vaxxed but remote employees don't. The EEOC discrimination guidelines also come into play so that the company doesn't force all LGBTQs to work remotely & can be unvaxxed, leaving only straight vaxxed people in the office. The usual exceptions - disability & religion - apply.
Attendance also triggers basic constitutional protections, especially discrimination due to race or some other protected class under federal & state law. If blacks are less likely to have had access to vaccinations, their being turned away would be a violation. Otherwise, business owners right now are allowed to have vaxx-only admittance policies. So far, there haven't been any cases to test the policy. FL Gov DeSantis issued an Exec Order prohibiting businesses for requiring proof of vaccination, but his reasoning is flawed so who knows whether that would survive in court.
Medical record privacy applies only to medical institutions. People frequently say asking about vaccination violates HIPAA. That's incorrect. Your local bar can ask you about your vaxx status; your doctor can't tell the local bar if you've been vaccinated.
Practically, business owners don't want to be in the vaxx enforcement business so the Proof of Vaccination card aka Vaccine Passport is appealing. That's a grey area - the US doesn't have a national picture ID card & the current card alone doesn't prove that the person presenting the card is actually the person who was vaxxed w/o additional proof - picture ID of some sort. Naturally, big data companies like IBM are working to produce such passports. Other countries already have some sort of entry card based on vaxx status.
AND, should someone win a discrimination attendance lawsuit, the award is gaining admission to that venue not monetary compensation.
I'm not the only lawyer here & this is just my response to your post; someone else may have a different or better answer.
I'm sure there is no answer to this, and adverse reactions have been fortunately rare, but what if someone had an adverse reaction to the 1st vaccine?
(yes, I know someone who did)
Always like you moving discussions along.
Like everything else w/Covid, the vaxx/mask requirements are going to constantly change as things re-open, new cases occur or not, legislation passes, & businesses decide how they want to operate. The passport idea is much like the TSA Fast Pass - available & people can choose whether to enroll.
I'm sure there is no answer to this, and adverse reactions have been fortunately rare, but what if someone had an adverse reaction to the 1st vaccine?
(yes, I know someone who did)
There had been some suggestion that a person could get the J&J shot several weeks after having a reaction to the first shot of one of the mRNA vaccines. That hadn't been tested but speculated by somebody at the CDC back in March.
I'm sure there is no answer to this, and adverse reactions have been fortunately rare, but what if someone had an adverse reaction to the 1st vaccine?
(yes, I know someone who did)
If you're looking for a legal answer, right now that person would probably be considered vaccinated. Adverse reaction or not, they still got the 1st dose & their reason for not getting the 2nd would broadly be considered a disability for which they can't be penalized.
Always like you moving discussions along.
Like everything else w/Covid, the vaxx/mask requirements are going to constantly change as things re-open, new cases occur or not, legislation passes, & businesses decide how they want to operate. The passport idea is much like the TSA Fast Pass - available & people can choose whether to enroll.
I have a general reluctance to having businesses be in the position to regulate and verify the vaccinated status of their customers. On one hand, it is an extension of the mask wearing "must wear a mask to enter" - "must be vaccinated to enter". The mask requirement was assumed temporary and pretty easy to just look and see...where mask ok, no mask not ok. The vaccinated status of somebody could be perpetual and more difficult to verify. If you aren't current in your shots, lose your card, don't have a smart phone to have an app or photo of your card...can somebody just tell the White Sox they have a religious objection and then the Sox make them sit in the unvaccinated section and thereby discriminated against them due to their religious view? Personally, I get vaccinated, most of my friends and family I interact with are vaccinated so it doesn't effect me personally. Beyond that segregating or discriminating against unvaccinated people opens up another can of worms....like everything always does.
By the way, I am a TSA-Pre enrollee. A difference in comparing the two is that I go through one line and nonTSA-pre goes through a different line but we end up in the same place. A vaccine passport concept would either make different groups of people go different places or outright exclude entry to unvaccinated.
By the way, I am a TSA-Pre enrollee. A difference in comparing the two is that I go through one line and nonTSA-pre goes through a different line but we end up in the same place. A vaccine passport concept would either make different groups of people go different places or outright exclude entry to unvaccinated.
Right now, patrons & employees are divided into 2 classes - vaxxed & not vaxxed. The question is do you want the government or the private sector to determine what each class can do. Until now, there are very few types of discrimination that government prohibits - race being the most protected. Who knows what the current composition of SCOTUS will decide if there's a case that makes it there.
The analogy w/TSA is that there is a "pass" that allows people who are already ticket holders to bypass long security lines should they choose to get one. This link re how the Yankees test segregated seating & use of a pass is pretty good but it's a month old - ancient in Covid terms.
Right now, patrons & employees are divided into 2 classes - vaxxed & not vaxxed. The question is do you want the government or the private sector to determine what each class can do.
I actually do not want either the government or the private sector to determine what these new classes can and can not do. Unvaccinated and vaccinated should be able to do the same things if they choose. Vaccinated people are protected, unvaccinated people and those without antibodies are not protected so then they assume any risks that come with that.
If it is legal to deny entry to unvaccinated persons, then it is legal.
I wonder what is to stop anyone from lying, "I'm not vaccinated because of my religion" - any anti-vaxxer could say that and who is to say if they are telling the truth or not?
Showing test results, vaccine status, vaccine passport to gain entry into this place or that place - it sure is a whole new world.
Testing Excelsior Pass, what surprised me most was how easy it is to fake.
No doubt, I believe the best thing is for everyone to be vaccinated for several reasons. But not everyone is going to do it and I don't think that those who choose to not be vaccinated should be treated like some sort of pariah denied rights and benefits.
On another point that was being raised in the thread if we were to deny unvaccinated medical treatment for covid for those choosing not to be vaccinated I would fully support that. Might be the best motivating factor if all. Unless some states were going to implement a vaccine lottery...get vaccinated and earn a chance at a million dollars....or get vaccinated and earn a chance at free college tuition...carrot or stick? Why reward what people should do without outside incentive, I'd rather punish those who don't.
You're overthinking this. Like it or not, there are 2 classes of people right now - vaxxed & unvaxxed - & someone is going to decide who is allowed to do what theoretically in the interest of public health. I chalk it up to a short term problem that will sort itself out in time based on how/if Covid continues to spread.
Arguments like religious exemption are used in court cases w/very specific language & circumstances. A "bouncer" & a private citizen aren't going to have the "my religion..." conversation at the entrance to a stadium. Remember, it's not just any religion; it's a recognized religion w/a long history of refusal of medical interventions like Jehovah's Witness & Christian Science. The minimum wage ticket taker doesn't care; he's going to enforce his employer's policy.
It is illegal to withhold medical treatment to any patient. I'm sure @StormyRider can expound on that. Rumors to contrary are just that rumors - not based on fact.
An example of private organizations making decisions is NYC co-ops (not condos or rentals). The shareholders are generally upper-middle class to wealthy vaxxed persons while the non-union maintenance/custodial staff are mostly non-white & possibly illegal persons who are unvaxxed - out of fear of any medical treatment, the contents of the vaccine, & that their immigration status will be revealed. That puts 2 classes of people in close proximity on a daily basis. The solution for many co-ops is to continue to require masks, social distancing, & hand washing precautions & not to fire all the unvaxxed.
Get out of the trees & look at the forest. 😀
You are correct. Witholding necessary medical treatment for any reason other than patient refusal is unethical and illegal.
Thanks for the legal info.
The question about switching from mRNA vaccine to J&J is a difficult one - it depends on what the reaction was from. If it is from a component of the vaccine, then switching should be fine. If it was from the body's immune response to the spike protein causing an off target effect (like an auto immune reaction) then the same problem may recur with whichever vaccine is used. It's interesting that many reactions to vaccines in general (other than hives or anaphylaxis) are because of the bodies immune response and are known to occur from virus infection, example Bells palsy, Guillan Barre, or transverse myelitis after flu shot can all occur with influenza infection. The clotting disorder associated with J&J has also been observed after Covid infection
Get out of the trees & look at the forest
I enjoy both being in the trees and looking at the forest!
There is this sentiment that people who choose not to get vaccinated shouldn't then burden the health care system if they become infected. I echo that feeling.
Of course then you have people who can't receive the vaccine who could become infected. Those people must take every precaution they deem necessary, or not - I don't think we should alter society for the small percentage of people who fall into the category of can't receive or have some conscientious or religious objection to it.
The example of a bouncer at a club not having the conversation about religious objection to being vaccinated is kind of my point. They shouldn't be having any conversation about vaccination period. So if somebody has a legitimate objection to the vaccination or a BS objection to the vaccine that they call religious, what happens with that person...let in or not?
Vaccinated people are protected from other vaccinated and in an extraordinarily high percentage from other non-vaccinated people. So there is no need to keep vaccinated people separate from nonvaccinated people. Non-vaccinated people are vulnerable to infection from other non-vaccinated people, so if those people put themselves in a situation whereby they could contract the virus, we are expecting our business and sports leagues to prevent that for them? They need to do it themselves. If an unvaccinated person wants to dine in a restaurant, why shouldn't they be allowed to do so? For fear of them infecting vaccinated people? No. For fear of them infecting themselves? If that is a yes, why does the entire country need to worry about unvaccinated people putting themselves at risk of infection? For fear of them infecting other unvaccinated people? Same thing, why aren't those unvaccinated people responsible for their own decisions to put themselves in a situation whereby they might have increased infection? I do not think there should be any vaccine passport or subclass of people and we create an entire procedure on how to effectively deal with each group.
As for those who fear medical treatment, or who fear the ingredients of the vaccine or might be illegal and fear getting the vaccine and being discovered - that is on them to do the benefit analysis, if they think staying unvaccinated is the right move for them, so be it. If they get sick because of that choice, that is the consequence of their action. I don't think those kind of workers in the example need fired. They should continue to be employed, nothing different needs done. Those people either protect themselves or they don't.
We are pushing and continue to push for this vaccine to be spread and encouraged, but not it seems like we are making excuses for the smaller percentage of people who fear it or don't want to be found out to be illegal...then there are the anti-vaxer crowd, the religous objection lot and the allergic or ineligible persons - we can't make every single accommodation for all these groups of people. Get vaccinated and if not it is up to those people to take their own precautions to try and avoid infection.
I suspect researchers will have full employment for the next decade analyzing the ramifications of Covid, treatment, disabilities from the virus, & side effects from the various vaccines w/global subjects. The law usually lags far behind looking to medicine for guidance.
Yes, getting vaccinated is the goal. However, it became politicized, misinformation & fear spread, & now 30% (I think) of the population who have access to one refuses it. There was always going to be a very small % of religious objectors & anti-vaxxers that would not prevent herd immunity.
The original question was is it discriminatory to treat the 2 classes differently. Right now, it isn't, but that may change as the number of cases rises or not under an re-opened society.
You're correct. The ticket holder/patron conversation shouldn't happen because the non-vaxxed potential patron knows the stadium policy. Commenters have mentioned what warnings & disclaimers are shown for purchasing sports ticket. I've seen the same for salons, medical facilities, restaurants, and retailers. So, if a non-vaxxed person has notice that they won't be allowed entry & deliberately goes somewhere, they're spoiling for a fight. A futile one.
Your opinion re withholding medical treatment for someone who chose not to be vaccinated & became sick is your opinion. It's illegal to do so & the same logic would then have to be applied to withholding treatment for diseases that are caused by a person's decisions - lung cancer/lifetime smoker, cirrhosis/lifetime drug & alcohol abuse, diabetes/obese, heart disease/obesity, inactivity, improper diet, fetal rubella/pregnant woman refused vaccine, HIV/bareback. Not a slippery slope anyone in law or health care is going to go down.
There are massive campaigns to debunk myths & encourage more vaccinations. The vaccine passport is a political football, but the success of it in other countries counters most objections. We're all entitled to our opinions & to express them, but they're not necessarily going to translate into change.
Absolutely! It's all opinion. That's what we come to the message board to express. I might be right, I might be wrong, I might be partially right...or right or wrong isn't always the way to put it, but it is conversation and ideas. You know mine, I know yours and one of us might be crazy or misguided and the other one might be highly educated and grounded...but any public message board should make up various characters and different lines of thinking. And what I hope, and quite honestly what I get is to test my feelings with somebody else's thoughts and they get to either deny or affirm the subject and maybe take away a different idea or perspective. The last thing I will ever think is that I am always right, but respectfully I will never award anyone else with that label either.
I think this question of how to treat vaccinated vs unvaccinated is going to fester for quite a while. I don't like it, but I can't change it and I'm not going to somehow let it alter anything that shouldn't be altered by it.
As for the denial of coverage for anti-vaccine covid patients, and the slippery slope you mention, I do have some consistency there...what I'll say is that if resources are stressed and finances are limited, then those who do harm to themselves by smoking, improper diet, lifestyle choices that lead to an unhealthy condition, well, I do think that those people should be treated differently than the ones who become sick through no fault of their own or some hereditary condition. More of a general health care discussion.
Three examples of some conservative friends of mine ...
1) Guy is 52 and has MS. Won't take vaccines because he had a bad reaction to a flu vaccine that caused an MS flare-up
2) Guy is 64 - said he hasn't gotten sick and won't take it. Next time I saw him he said he had gotten his first dose - said he wanted to travel, and it was pretty clear other countries are going to require it.
3) Guy 67, who I thought would have an issue said 'what's the big deal, we have been getting vaccines our whole life". His other reason though was that his mom is in a nursing home, and he couldn't visit unless vaccinated.
Next couple of months or so should be interesting ....
So that is good Sang, 2 of your 3 potentially anti-vax friends have gotten it.
I have 6 that I believe have yet to be vaccinated. 2 or 3 are complete lost causes, I think the other 3 will eventually, or even already might have since I spoke to them last. Some of us will be getting together coming up, with one friend and his wife attending being huge progressives. I'd like to see them talk about vaccines because Brian is going to get absolutely grilled why he hasn't gotten vaccinated and I can see a surrender and retreat coming. In fact we all have high respect for this one particular progressive couple, so much so that I wouldn't be surprised if Brian may have already done it ahead of this gathering so he wouldn't have to face the questions and criticism.
NYT reports that over 59% of the US has received atleast one dose or single dose, Joe Biden rounded up and said 60%. 60% doesn't seem that bad just because last I remember reading not long ago we were down below 50%. Providers are vaccinating 1.83 million people per day on average according to NYT (down from peak of 3.38 million). The President had a goal of 70% by July 4th.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html
Massachusetts Governor is lifting basically all COVID restrictions May 29th here so restaurants and other public venues can go to full capacity. Aligning with the CDC masks will be optional for those vaccinated while unvaccinated are urged to we masks and keep social distancing.
Some concerns I have
1. Does anyone really expect some of the unvaccinated to continue to wear masks once there is no longer a mask requirement? Also how will business handle this? Will they continue to be able to require masks for customers? My teenage daughter works at a well known chain restaurant as hostess seating customers and they require masks for service and she battles with customers now to wear masks so what happens when masks are not required for the vaccinated?
2. Considering they just opened up vaccination for children under 16 I think the State is jumping the gun on loosening the mask requirements at a minimum. My 17 year old received her first shot and my 15 year old goes this weekend but they are still at risk until fully vaccinated.
I hope this works out but I fear there is going to be spikes in COVID cases as we move into summer.
I hope your teen daughter who works as a hostess is getting guidance & support from management. Because she works for a well known chain perhaps there is a chain-wide policy. Your daughter, of course, has no way of knowing who is vaccinated & who isn't unless the chain is requiring proof of vaccination (unlikely).
Agree that this is going to take a while to shake out as the # of new cases rises or not w/re-opening. In the meantime, it's people like your teen who is charged w/enforcement & dealing w/disgruntled patrons. Hope she's getting a raise!
I live in MA also and have the same concerns. My gut feeling is that in the NE the vaccination rate is pretty good, I don't think it is where it should be to just open up.
Also, many of the same people who refuse to get vaccinated are the same people who refuse to mask. There will be some altercations.
I have a friend similar to Sang - he has lupus and is appropriately afraid of a flair after the vaccine. The problem is that he is more likely to get ill if he gets covid, and now that things are opening up the chance of that happening are higher.
I hope your teen daughter who works as a hostess is getting guidance & support from management. Because she works for a well known chain perhaps there is a chain-wide policy. Your daughter, of course, has no way of knowing who is vaccinated & who isn't unless the chain is requiring proof of vaccination (unlikely).
Agree that this is going to take a while to shake out as the # of new cases rises or not w/re-opening. In the meantime, it's people like your teen who is charged w/enforcement & dealing w/disgruntled patrons. Hope she's getting a raise!
Well, so far they refuse to seat anyone not wearing a mask and she has to play bad cop several times a night with stubborn customers when she is working. We will see what the new policy is now that the State is opening up and allowing full occupancy and no mandatory masks.
Once both my daughters are fully vaccinated, by end of June based on a two shot schedule, I will feel better but there is still risk of breakthrough infection which will require us to quarantine which is tough as my wife is a flight attendant so it is difficult for her if she has to miss work.
Even if fully vaccinated we all can still get COVID and transmit it though the health risks are much lower for us.
JMO but I think the Governors here in NE are opening up things a little too quickly without thought on how businesses will manage this change. If I owned a business I would still insist on masks but then how can you enforce it with the CDC and State saying masks are not required for the vaccinated?
Breakthroughs remain incredibly rare. Per the CDC, as of 4/26 there were 95 million fully vaccinated people and 9,245 breakthrough cases. That is less than .010%. One hundredth of a percent. Yes it happens, yes some people go to the hospital and yes some people die. But we are talking about incredibly small numbers as a percentage. So much so that the CDC is going to change how the track breakthrough cases - they are only going to monitor cases that result in hospitalization and death.\
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/past-breakthrough-data.html
We are in a transition period. I see political operatives on the right taking aim at conflicting messages and confusion from the administration. None of this is easy, but I will defend where the CDC guidance has gone on masks and the data that has led them to that decision.
