It’s called politics. It’s called debate. I think where you are getting confused is that you are trying to lump political beliefs in with all other categories of beliefs. Sure…we can all respect and appreciate the diversity of opposing viewpoints in religion, culture, ethnicity, art, philosophy and lots of other areas…and it does not affect us. I can even respect and appreciate opposing political beliefs in the same way…up to a point. What you don’t seem to understand is that political beliefs get converted into monetary policy, laws/regulations, foreign policy (wars), school curriculums, ad infinitum…and then they do literally affect millions, if not billions, in this nation and around the world. So when an opposing belief has the potential to become law and be forcefully imposed on an entire nation…and if it has the potential to negatively impact/harm me, my family, my community or the world…yes, I do deem it a problem. And if deeming that a problem means that I am the problem…well, then…yes, absolutely count me as part of the problem. I will gladly accept that label.
Holding contempt and denigration is how you define politics? Interesting. It seems as though our differences lie within the fact that a political belief cannot and will not affect nor harm me and my family because we won't allow it to. I believe our country has more than enough resources to prevent that from happening. You sound a little paranoid, which explains your contempt.
Holding contempt and denigration is how you define politics? Interesting. It seems as though our differences lie within the fact that a political belief cannot and will not affect nor harm me and my family because we won't allow it to. I believe our country has more than enough resources to prevent that from happening. You sound a little paranoid, which explains your contempt.
Nope, never said that. I wasn’t offering any kind of precise definition of politics. I was saying that politics and political debate is characterized by those things. And it most definitely is. Always has been, always will be. This last election season was a perfect example, and both candidates were heartily engaged it. Or just flip on CNN, Fox or MSNBC at this very moment if you need additional evidence.
So…let’s look at this…“a political belief cannot and will not affect nor harm me and my family because we won't allow it to.”
This is so naïve and out of touch with reality. You are affected by political beliefs everyday. How much of your income the government allows you to keep is determined by someone’s political beliefs. How fast you can drive to work, whether or not you must wear your seat belt, are you allowed to carry a gun in your car, must you be insured to drive your car, can your employer fire you without cause, can you smoke a cigarette at your favorite bar, what kind of healthcare can you get, which bath room can you use, can you smoke a joint, who are you allowed to marry, can you get an abortion…every decision and action of your life, your prosperity and safety, your freedom…from very small details to life changing moments…is affected by someone’s political beliefs, and they will either be your beliefs or someone else‘s making that determination. If none of it matters…if none of it affects you…then why vote, why protest, why come on a forum to discuss politics?
Perfect example…Obamacare. Before Obamacare, I had a great health care plan. Because of Obamacare my company had to get rid of that great health care plan and replace it with a very sh**ty one. So much for the “if you like your policy, you can keep it” promise. So don’t tell me that other people’s political beliefs don’t harm me and my family. Obama’s signature policy, the one he will be remembered for, harmed a lot of people that I know…but I have yet to come across a single person that it helped. So…looking forward to seeing that get dismantled.
And how about the hundreds of thousands of people killed, displaced, orphaned, maimed etc. in Iraq because of Bush’s foreign policy. Tell those folks that a political belief cannot and will not affect them…
So…let’s look at this…“a political belief cannot and will not affect nor harm me and my family because we won't allow it to.”
This is so naïve and out of touch with reality. You are affected by political beliefs everyday. How much of your income the government allows you to keep is determined by someone’s political beliefs. How fast you can drive to work, whether or not you must wear your seat belt, are you allowed to carry a gun in your car, must you be insured to drive your car, can your employer fire you without cause, can you smoke a cigarette at your favorite bar, what kind of healthcare can you get, which bath room can you use, can you smoke a joint, who are you allowed to marry, can you get an abortion…every decision and action of your life, your prosperity and safety, your freedom…from very small details to life changing moments…is affected by someone’s political beliefs, and they will either be your beliefs or someone else‘s making that determination. If none of it matters…if none of it affects you…then why vote, why protest, why come on a forum to discuss politics?
But why let it affect you is my point. If the gov't raises taxes, it's such a miniscule amount for the middle class, so why worry about it? It's not going to affect how much income you can make. Hard work does that. Even in the more serious examples of abortion and marraige, you can still travel to a different state to get it done, not the worst thing in the world considering the state of many other countries. The point is, where's there's a will, there's a way. We have an over abundance of resources to get anything we want, so there's no reason to get upset over policy. Why vote or protest? Go participate, just don't be hostile and denigrate because it won't accomplish or solve anything, and will only compound the problem.
Perfect example…Obamacare. Before Obamacare, I had a great health care plan. Because of Obamacare my company had to get rid of that great health care plan and replace it with a very sh**ty one. So much for the “if you like your policy, you can keep it” promise. So don’t tell me that other people’s political beliefs don’t harm me and my family. Obama’s signature policy, the one he will be remembered for, harmed a lot of people that I know…but I have yet to come across a single person that it helped. So…looking forward to seeing that get dismantled.
Describe the harm, as if you were in a court of law.
And how about the hundreds of thousands of people killed, displaced, orphaned, maimed etc. in Iraq because of Bush’s foreign policy. Tell those folks that a political belief cannot and will not affect them…
Not because of a murderous dictator named Saddam who controlled the entire region? A sociopath in the Middle East caused that, not our President's political beliefs. Sometimes stopping a madman goes beyond political beliefs.
[Edited on 1/22/2017 by BoytonBrother]
It's not a matter of "letting it" affect me...it affects me whether I let it or not...it is imposed upon me by force, by the power of the government...right? Pay your taxes or go to jail. I don't volunteer to pay more taxes. So when you use the phrase "letting it" as if it is something that I can avoid...well, that makes zero sense. If I could avoid it, I most certainly would. But I can't and it will affect me either way. If I pay the tax it affects me by decreasing the amount of my income that I get to keep, so less money in my pocket. If I don't pay it, some thugs in government uniforms come and drag me off to jail. The affect on me is unavoidable...and not something I voluntarily "let" happen to me...and the affect is negative and harmful either way, i.e. a choice between less money or jail.
I now pay more...and pay more for sh**ty insurance. I consider that harm. Paying more, getting less. That is a negative in my book. What don't you get?
Believing that we had the right to intervene in another country's affairs, and invade and occupy that country IS A POLITICAL BELIEF!!...it was Bush's political belief...I do not share that belief. Lot's of people died because of Bush's political beliefs...I guess they shouldn't have "let" those bombs affect them?
[Edited on 1/22/2017 by Redfish7]
I don't think you know the definition of a political belief. On to the next thread for me.
I don't think you know the definition of a political belief. On to the next thread for me.
Or maybe you don't...
Here’s a good definition…and one that corresponds to how I am using the term “political belief”:
A political ideology is a certain set of ethical ideals, principles, doctrines, myths or symbols of a social movement, institution, class, and/or large group that explains how society should work, and offers some political and cultural blueprint for a certain social order. A political ideology largely concerns itself with how to allocate power and to what ends it should be used. Political ideologies have two dimensions:
Goals: How society should be organized.
Methods: The most appropriate way to achieve this goal.
(Source is wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_ideologies)
Do you have a different definition? If so, I’d be interested to hear what your concept of a political belief is and how it differs from the definition above.
But assuming that the definition above is accurate…basically what you’ve been trying to convince me of is that I should not “let” any of those things affect me. After all, these beliefs only determine things like how society should be organized, and the most appropriate way to achieve this goal. These beliefs determine how to allocate power in society and to what ends it should be used. No need to concern myself with any of that…I shouldn’t “let” any of it affect me…right? Unfortunately we live in a society that is shaped by political ideology, and it affects everyone who lives in that society whether they like it or not.
The Bush Doctrine - foreign interventionism, regime change, etc. - was one of these political beliefs/ideologies…and a very deadly one at that.
[Edited on 1/22/2017 by Redfish7]
And this is a big thing when we have our properly regulated US companies building and operating here to produce a product for sale, and then we allow in a foreign produced good for sale in our market, but that company did not bear the cost of the same regulations we did. So not only do they have a lower labor cost advantage going into their product, they have lower overhead costs overall. The answer isn't for us to drop our regulations dangerously low, the answer is to impose a tarriff tax on those goods that come into our market that undermine safety and environmental concerns we care about.
Here's a very small example of what drives me nuts, personally.
The very noble, honorable and shared goal of buying American products first is one that should be undertaken by all of us. However, that is not always the case because purchasing and business decisions are made completely outside of that notion.
My local grocery store seems to only ever stock Chinese garlic. Seems pretty inconsequential, right? Thing is, millions and millions of pounds annually of some of the best garlic anywhere is grown in Texas.
OK, so, who is the stopgap here? The importer that ordered it? The local produce distributor that ordered it from the importer? The produce manager at the grocery store that ordered it from the local produce distributor? Me or anyone else for buying it in the end?
Most consumers don't care. We've been inundated with millions and millions of foreign goods for decades now. In what is almost now a purely consumer culture, "Made in China" or "Made in Taiwan" is just a given that most people just ignore.
I know this is a miniscule example of an item that costs 75 cents, but, one could ask these same questions about anything imported.
Then...there's this inconvenient question...are all foreign-made products bad? I buy gin and scotch made in England and Scotland, wine made in Italy and France. Am I and everyone else at the liquor store traitors to the Republic?
This is where, IMO, the extreme populism of the political season and the extreme populism that drives the new administration will fall short quickly. Big statements and platitudes and bumper sticker solutions to complex problems don't actually solve anything. You have to do the work. Is America up to it in the matter of trade by making a commitment to American made products?
To that end, take the big ticket item of cars. What if a foreign-made car is of better quality? Does nationalist pride take precedence to value of purchase?
Regardless of who is President, everyone has to buy in, pun intended.
Sorry, didn't see this in here. So many side conversations ongoing.
Looking at country of origin at the grocery store. I remember the first time I told my wife she bought toothpaste made in Taiwan, she says "now I have to start reading labels at the grocery store too!". She is actually very good about supporting me on this. In fact she goes clothes shopping and tells her daughter "Scott won't care how much I spent because it is all made in USA!" She actually finds a good bit of her clothes in stores made in USA. I have to buy my USA clothes online almost exclusively.
You are right, most people do not care. Although when I talk about it with people, which you can imagine I do very often, they always politely agree. Like you said, most people know it is atleast not a bad thing and often a good thing to try and buy stuff made here. Unfortunately people by and large just don't care enough, or honestly, have enough time to do the research it requires to search for and find USA made products instead of just buying what is convenient.
I've said it before, that businesses are not going to do it on their own. Sure there is some good PR that can come with it and maybe they can roll out an ad campaign to boost perception of their brand. But most decisions are made with the profit and loss statement in mind. It's not business' fault, business does what it has in order to survive and grow.
It is really government's fault. A broader discussion needed than we may want to do in a Liberal Angst and Russia thread. But American government has to show the commitment to American workers rather than multinational corporations or workers in foreign countries. And not everyone can be a winner here. Some people involved in the importation of goods may be hurt, but that should be offset by people involved in domestic production gaining. Currently we've had too much hurt of the US worker at the gain of the foreign worker or foreign country. The goal is more thriving towns, cities and communities, less reliance on state and federal government for things that people struggle or can't provide for on their own. The best social program after all is a good paying job.
Yes, I think nationalist pride, as you put it, does take precedent over perceived better quality a foreign made product may have. I mean, I would not knowingly buy a product destined to fail just because it is US. I have made sacrifices in some features and benefits though to buy the US product over the foreign product. The key is the foreign product is not going to be banned. We don't ban Porsches because they don't meet our CAFE standards, we just fine them. It is the same with any imported product subjected to a tariff. If you think that a washing machine made in Korea is of better quality than a Maytag made in Wisconsin, you can still buy that Samsung or LG machine, nobody will stop you. But that company will be passing on the tariff to you in the price. Unless of course it incentives LG or Samsung to start building appliance here in the US to avoid the tariff. That really is the key, getting more things made here. And if not then the federal government has a new revenue stream thanks to the import tariff.
So that is the stop gap, policy from the federal level. Like you said, it isn't just autos and garlic. A whole host of items that are imported, some we can produce here and others are specific to different regions of the world in terms of climate and culture. So I'm not saying we tariff coffee or bananas. Both of which are grown in the US on a limited basis, but domestic production could never satisfy demand. So a whole set of policy needs drafted to set the rules.
Happy shopping! Beware of frozen salmon "wild caught in the US processed in China". Some things just make you shake your head.
I kind of get the 'Buy American' argument, but I get different perspectives. According to my financial guy, we are very much a consumer economy - we are not the producers as much anymore, but consumers. That is why our trade deficit is so high - and why the dollar is so strong.
Like most consumers, I want things fairly priced - I don't have to have the 'best' of everything, just something that does what I need it to do. When I start hearing of tariffs, all I think of is higher priced goods that many people can't afford, and the beginnings of inflation. Not sure everybody really wants that out of these trade deals Trump is talking about.
And yes, until he and Ivanka start producing their lines in the US, I call BS on what he is selling......
I kind of get the 'Buy American' argument, but I get different perspectives. According to my financial guy, we are very much a consumer economy - we are not the producers as much anymore, but consumers. That is why our trade deficit is so high - and why the dollar is so strong.
Like most consumers, I want things fairly priced - I don't have to have the 'best' of everything, just something that does what I need it to do. When I start hearing of tariffs, all I think of is higher priced goods that many people can't afford, and the beginnings of inflation. Not sure everybody really wants that out of these trade deals Trump is talking about.
And yes, until he and Ivanka start producing their lines in the US, I call BS on what he is selling......
There are so many variables.
Sometimes a USA item isn't really that much more, or even cheaper. And yes sometimes it is more. Just depends. Nothing is across the board true all the time on that.
A different group of people (and some of the same) wanted out of the trade deals when Bernie Sanders was talking about it. Sure not everyone wants the same thing always, but there are Democrats and there are Republicans that want something different on trade. There is definite crossover here, it is rare, but it is not a partisan issue for once. More Republicans in theory want status quo. More Democrats in theory want something along the lines of what their union supporters clamor for.
I look at it as a shift away from a the corptocracy and giving workers and labor more of the power.
And I look at it like this, if we have more jobs chasing the workers the demand for labor goes up as do wages and benefits - if the tariffs have the desired effect...which is to incentivize more domestic jobs at the expense of jobs in foreign countries. Instead of downward pressure on wages as well as a downward flow of prices, what is really the difference if we have upward pressure on wages and perhaps have some pressure on prices? Make less pay less? Or make more pay more? There will still be competition. People will still be trying to build a better mousetrap and gain market share. The playing field with just be level from an overhead cost standpoint.
Like I said, not everyone is going to win in this scenario. Depending on your particular situation or profession a more focused made in America strategy with tariffs may be a bad thing for you. But when I look at the impact it can have for the country as a whole, independent of who may win or who may lose, I look at it as an overall win for the nation as a whole.
There are all kinds of ways to do it.
Say like cars made in Mexico for instance. The same could apply to Canada or Korea, but the auto industry isn't expanding in Canada much these days like they are in Mexico and Korea because the Canadians have wages and benefits similar to that of US auto workers. But they could say "any autos imported over x% of sales is subject to y% tariff". Or they could even not tariff an auto if made in out of the country, they could say that "content of imported autos must be no less than z% US content"...meaning that something like 65% of the car made in Mexico must have products that were sourced in the US and sent to Mexico for assembly. Alot of that already goes on, but the content percentage may not be that high currently.
Again, so many ways to skin the cat. So many different directions to go. Alot of scare tactics will get used. You know the good old Smoot-Hawly tariff thing. Scaring people about prices going up and all that. People invested in one side or the other will have their propaganda, just like anything. And just like anything seeing through it to the big picture impact can be a challenge.
[Edited on 1/23/2017 by nebish]
Let's just use jeans as an example. I buy jeans for $50-60 online. These jeans last me probably close to 10 years probably in normal use. They are good quality. I see on Amazon you can buy jeans for $15-40. So these US jeans I buy are more than that. But then I look at Urban Outfitters and they have jeans $50-80, which are imported and more expensive than my US ones.
Levis or any company could have an import allowance, either in dollars or units that are tariff free and then anything over that dollar amount gets the tariff. So it isn't a sudden shock to the manufacturer or the labor and sales markets they operate (or plan to operate).
USA jeans are a niche, they don't do the volume of the large imported brands. If the volume of the existing US jean manufacturer increases, maybe they can drop the price if they can buy material in greater amounts (and at a greater discount) and maybe they get more efficient in production as sales volume goes up leading to a price drop. Maybe they get picked up in a major retailer equaling more sales because now US made product can compete with jeans made in China because the prices are more equal and then the consumer can make the decision on the quality of the product or the style.
https://www.rokform.com/pages/about-us
Made in USA smart phone cases...same price as their imported counterparts at the cell phone stores.
Made in USA isn't always more.
Ten years use out of a pair of jeans? What? Maybe if they are sitting in a drawer! Takes me about a year to ruin a pair.
Maybe you should try some of these!
http://www.allamericanclothing.com/made-in-usa/jeans.html
https://www.gusset.com/store/jeans
http://www.allusaclothing.com/american-made-mens-jeans-s/1858.htm
Those are the 3 sources I buy from. I've seen others though.
One of the pairs I wear in the shop lasted 3-4 years. Dirty greasy automotive work. On the ground alot. The ones I wear in normal non-work times last a long time. I mean I have 4 nonwork pair I rotate. Pretty sure I bought one or two of the ones I have now when Bush was President so I'd say pretty long. I like the Diamond Gusset and the All American Clothing ones best. One of those companies gives you a code you can go online and even see what farm the cotton comes from! Probably too much info for you LOL sorry.
Thx - will check those. been paying good money for wranglers that rip before they even fade
[Edited on 1/23/2017 by BrerRabbit]
Great, I hope you like whatever you buy. As with all the online purchases, once you buy something you get constant promotional emails. Here are some discount codes from my recent inbox.
This link will take you to a page with currently 50% off items. If your size or style isn't on the 50% discount offerings, there is a 10% off code for regular inventory.
Shop the discount rack and save on discontinued items, close-outs, overstocks and 'seconds'. Seconds may have some slight flaws in the fabric or stitching but they still work great for lounging around or working outside! This sale is very popular and we will run out of the popular items/sizes/colors very fast! If you cannot find your preferred size/color here, please feel free to use coupon code: DCRTEN to save 10% on any of our regularly priced inventory items. Shop our regular inventory >
http://www.unionlabel.com/
Save MONEY by entering the coupon code below for a 5% DISCOUNT on your ENTIRE purchase.
BUYUSA
Last code I had for Diamond Gusset is expired.