Notifications
Clear all

Imbalance & Contradiction

31 Posts
7 Users
21 Likes
157 Views
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

Just a day after the Supreme Court strikes down the state of NY's ability to regulate where guns can be carried, the same court determines states should regulate abortion, thus striking down decades of women's rights. So which is it? Back-to-back cases stripping away rights to protect health and safety (at a time when both are fragile) isn't a coincidence, this is pure judicial activism. How far will it go? Alito has already referenced other cases for possible review. Cherry picking previous decisions is not how the court is supposed to operate.

Not to dwell on the previous administration, but let's not forget that three of the justices on the court were appointed by a man who attempted to obstruct our democracy and used politics for personal profit. The Jan 6 hearings have been progressively more damning, and the fruit from that spoiled tree continues to rot and directly affect peoples' lives.

Sure, these are heated topics with intense disagreement, but how we got to dismantling these decisions is completely contradictory to the judicial restraint that was once championed. It's a hot mess right now.

PorkchopBob Studio

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 4:53 pm
cyclone88 reacted
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

As one commentator said, "If women could shoot bullets out of their fallopian tubes, they'd be protected."

I don't consider this court to be legitimate - not that my opinion matters. Kavanaugh & the schoolmarm aren't legit legal scholars & their only job is to dismantle abortion and everything from which it sprung - contraception, gay sex, gay marriage - & put as many guns out there as possible even if they have to make up spurious reasons.

That's not to say SCOTUS is the only branch of government at fault. Instead of relying on a SCOTUS opinion for 50 years, Congress should've enacted a federal abortion law immediately - back when there were reasonable, intelligent people who could make bipartisan legislation.

 

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 5:06 pm
PorkchopBob reacted
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

@cyclone88 

The sheep fears the wolf only to be eaten by the shepherd.

Just a few years ago we were arguing about something as simple and innocent as Federal assistance for unaffordable health care, with extreme conservatives ringing the "socialism" dog whistle. What a simple time that was.

Since then, three justices lied under oath regarding their Roe v Wade intentions.

The pendulum swings back and forth, but now we have extremist judges with an agenda to target progressive laws that protect peoples' health and safety. The branches are supposed to balance each other, not conspire to secure a puppet court.

 

PorkchopBob Studio

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 5:32 pm
cyclone88 reacted
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

@porkchopbob 

We've never had extremist justices who so clearly announce their political intentions in opinions and ignore their judicial obligations. They blithely dismiss the basic principle of law that precedent is required for any sense of order in judicial matters - to provide a degree of certainty on which citizens can rely when making decisions and to acknowledge their predecessors as thoughtful judicial minds who considered many angles before making a ruling. They seemed to not only overrule Roe but stare decisis as well. 

Although Alito the Apologist claims that the court isn't going to turn back a couple's right to make decisions re contraception or the legality of gay sex or the constitutionality of gay marriage, Thomas in the majority opinion says that's exactly what is planned. Believe Thomas. 

Worse, this court is here to stay for a while - not only to make bad rulings but to be unable to foresee the chaos that tossing the backbone of judicial decision-making will cause.

 

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 7:08 pm
PorkchopBob reacted
goldtop
(@goldtop)
Prominent Member
 
Posted by: @cyclone88

@porkchopbob 

We've never had extremist justices who so clearly announce their political intentions in opinions and ignore their judicial obligations. They blithely dismiss the basic principle of law that precedent is required for any sense of order in judicial matters - to provide a degree of certainty on which citizens can rely when making decisions and to acknowledge their predecessors as thoughtful judicial minds who considered many angles before making a ruling. They seemed to not only overrule Roe but stare decisis as well. 

Although Alito the Apologist claims that the court isn't going to turn back a couple's right to make decisions re contraception or the legality of gay sex or the constitutionality of gay marriage, Thomas in the majority opinion says that's exactly what is planned. Believe Thomas. 

Worse, this court is here to stay for a while - not only to make bad rulings but to be unable to foresee the chaos that tossing the backbone of judicial decision-making will cause.

 

How is their testimony before the senate confirmation hearing not perjury?

 

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 7:39 pm
PorkchopBob reacted
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

@cyclone88 

Yeah, historically the Court has been a balanced rock. Over-turning decisions that no longer have merit happens over time as cases come before them, but the fact the Court is taking aim at specific high-profile political decisions now that they have the opportunity is concerning. They aren't elected officials drafting legislation, they are interpreters. The only hand the people had in this imbalance is via a corrupt politician. It's not representative.

I never liked the idea of expanding the court, it felt like a thumb on the scale and a dilution of the branch. But the Court was improperly imbalanced when Garland's appointment was blocked. I doubt it could be done, but there's no sense in looking backwards.

Again, not to dwell on the previous administration, but I said in Nov 2016 - so long as he doesn't affect the Court and there isn't an international disaster, maybe we'll be ok. Well, here we are.

PorkchopBob Studio

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 7:46 pm
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
Famed Member
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @goldtop

How is their testimony before the senate confirmation hearing not perjury?

I've thought that too - could they receive sanctions for their testimony? I bet someone somewhere is working on it. But I would assume they spoke generally enough to avoid jeopardizing their confirmation and to protect themselves in the event today actually happened.

PorkchopBob Studio

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 7:50 pm
cyclone88 reacted
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

@goldtop 

They'll say that was their opinion at the time. Once on the court & discussing w/other justices & the specifics of this case, they decided to overrule Roe. Kavanaugh is the most troublesome - he actually made the strongest case for his fervent belief in precedent. 

This post was modified 2 months ago by cyclone88
 
Posted : June 24, 2022 8:51 pm
PorkchopBob reacted
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

@porkchopbob 

I was totally caught off guard in 2016 - never in a million years did I think the former prez would win. I've also made strong pronouncements that Roe would never be overturned because Americans - its people, economy, social services, Medicaid, health care insurers & providers, Big Pharma, etc - have depended on that being the settled law for 50 years. I never ever thought a majority of justices would destroy their judicial integrity by simply tossing a basic legal premise w/o an explanation. In reality, I thought Roe would become moot because Big Pharma would get the abortion pill to the market sooner & medical abortions would become obsolete.

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 8:57 pm
PorkchopBob reacted
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

@goldtop

one more thing - Gorsuch is the author/editor of a book published in 2016 entitled "Law of Judicial Precedent" about how past decisions guide future ones. Guess it's time for the publisher to pull that one off the shelves.

 
Posted : June 24, 2022 11:26 pm
theotherbrothers
(@theotherbrothers)
Trusted Member
 

The most egregious part of both decisions on gun rights and abortion, is that the Republican party seems completely disingenuous in their rhetoric. I do not believe for one second that those judges truly believe their own decisions on these topics. Nor do I believe the Governors touting their excitement to ban abortion in their state. I saw a picture of some 20-something males cheering in front of a courthouse - does anyone really believe they were truly cheering about "saving children"? The judges, the governors, the voters - it's a cowardly act to pass off accountability onto a more vulnerable group. They don't want to challenge themselves to help vulnerable groups - they want to challenge the vulnerable and underprivileged to meet a standard that suits them. In the long run, the poor and disadvantaged girls in Red states will be the ones having more and more children, leading to more and more problems, while the rich and privileged girls in Red states get to abort as they please. As long as they are committed to expanding adoption and foster care through taxpayer dollars, then I guess all is fair. This is Red America. 

 
Posted : June 25, 2022 1:04 am
theotherbrothers
(@theotherbrothers)
Trusted Member
 

Don't fall into the "which is it" hypocrisy accusation trap. This is a tactic that Trump and his supporters continue to use to justify their disgraceful behavior - "the Dems do it too, so screw them."  The Republicans' actions this week are a glaring example of a party and its people who are desperate and fearful of natural progression and evolution of society. It doesn't work for them. Remember, they had it all - privilege, wealth, power, control, and natural born advantages which are now slowly eroding away. Some of us look forward to the change, and others are terrified of it. We are seeing a Republican party that is on the endangered species list with young people. And what does any being do when they are backed into a corner and about to die? They fight with everything they have. They don't care about babies and they don't care about giving Americans their 2nd amendment right - they're just attacking with anything they can find.   

 
Posted : June 25, 2022 1:18 am
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

One final note on how significant the Roe decision is - Big Law (the largest international firms mostly based in NYC & DC) sent lawyers home Friday after the decision "to reflect." Forget abortion. To legal professionals, stare decisis - the use of past decisions to determine the outcome of cases - was tossed in the opinion. It essentially said the basis of law is over - make up anything you want to suit your purpose. In addition, Thomas cited precisely what other rights are planned to be eliminated. A SCOTUS judge threatened the rights of American citizens in a published opinion.

I don't work on Fridays, but I certainly talked to other lawyers about how shocked we were at the blatant gutting of how law works and has worked since the US was a colony of England. I'm glad to be nearing the end of my career. Absolutely nothing is sacred or even respected. I'm not as affected as litigators or policy makers because I'm a transactional lawyer, but it does make me question how binding existing laws re securities (1933), healthcare (1914), and intellectual property/copyright (1790 w/refinements based on technological advancements) are.

 
Posted : June 25, 2022 11:58 am
Rusty
(@rusty)
Famed Member
 

Clarence Thomas wants same sex marriage and contraception to be reconsidered.  What about inter-racial marriage, Clarence?  Fockin' hypocrite! 

https://www.al.com/news/2022/06/same-sex-marriage-and-contraception-rules-should-be-reconsidered-justice-clarence-thomas.html

 

 
Posted : June 25, 2022 1:44 pm
cyclone88 reacted
stormyrider
(@stormyrider)
Noble Member
 

The irony is that in the past GOP complained about “activist judges” who would “ legislate from the bench”. That’s exactly what we have now
Gay marriage is next to go, and trans rights

After that will be separation of church and state- even though it is in the constitution. They bend it to whatever they want to believe. 
We are in danger of losing our democracy 

the only freedom left will be to arm ourselves to the teeth

This post was modified 2 months ago by stormyrider
 
Posted : June 25, 2022 1:59 pm
cyclone88 and Rusty reacted
Rusty
(@rusty)
Famed Member
 

Cynically (and really only making a joke in poor taste) SCOTUS bans abortions so that future school shooters will have more targets.  The concern over regulation-free firearms display much more concern for possible lunatics with guns than protecting 9 and 10 year-olds.  

Current SCOTUS wants to reset America to the exact hour of the Constitution.  When do slaves go on sale in the public squares? Yeah, sick stuff.  But they do seem to be aiming at cherry-picking laws and regulations that will lead to a new status quo.  

Digression:  watch as our infamous system of (two) party politics grows more and more unmanaged.  The crystal ball tells me that Trump will eventually will be charged and tried for his evils ... only to appeal all the way up to HIS Supreme Court - where he will be found not guilty of anything.  

This post was modified 2 months ago by Rusty
 
Posted : June 25, 2022 2:13 pm
cyclone88 reacted
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

@rusty 

I only disagree that the former prez will ever be charged for his crimes.

BTW: Saw that the VH shooter had something like 10-13 911 calls to his home in the last year. Something was definitely up w/him & law enforcement knew it.

This post was modified 2 months ago by cyclone88
 
Posted : June 25, 2022 3:09 pm
Rusty reacted
Rusty
(@rusty)
Famed Member
 
Posted by: @porkchopbob
Posted by: @goldtop

How is their testimony before the senate confirmation hearing not perjury?

I've thought that too - could they receive sanctions for their testimony? I bet someone somewhere is working on it. But I would assume they spoke generally enough to avoid jeopardizing their confirmation and to protect themselves in the event today actually happened.

I suppose that there is a prerequisite for SCOTUS - before becoming a Judge, one must first be a juror.  In this case, a perjuror.  😉 

 
Posted : June 25, 2022 7:00 pm
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
Famed Member
Topic starter
 
Posted by: @theotherbrothers

Don't fall into the "which is it" hypocrisy accusation trap. This is a tactic that Trump and his supporters continue to use to justify their disgraceful behavior

I'm not talking about a "yeah but" accountability for some random Congressman running his/her mouth trying to get elected - these are Judges, the top court, not politicians. There can be no hypocrisy.

Judges are interpreters and their decisions should be based on centuries of precedent and logic - if/then is inherent in our system of law. Precedent by definition directly or indirectly impacts related cases or arguments. There has always been differing interpretations of our Constitution, but if the judges are going to be so bold as to disregard precedent for one Constitutionally protected right, it makes other rights vulnerable. And if Supreme Court Judges are targeting which precedents they want to overturn just because they have the opportunity to, then we are subject to the Judges' collective ideology rather than their individual judgement. And without consistency, it makes their decisions meaningless and arbitrary.

PorkchopBob Studio

 
Posted : June 25, 2022 8:34 pm
cyclone88 reacted
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

@porkchopbob 

Eloquently put.

I don't think the majority of Americans who only see "Roe over-ruled" understand the only type of legal duplicity that could make that happen - the complete cavalier disregard for the fundamental principle of law. Without it, there is no established law. 12 out of the 15 justices from both parties appointed since Roe understood that.

To even get that vote, there had to be judges who lied to individual members of Congress w/whom they met privately as well as to the Judiciary Committee under oath. There's a difference between being conservative and being corrupt. Both O'Connor (Reagan) and Ginsberg (Clinton) had top notch legal minds and although they each thought Roe had its flaws, they both upheld it due to the principle of stare decisis. Even yesterday, Chief Justice Roberts (Bush Sr.) voted in favor of Dobb but didn't vote to over-rule Roe for the same reason. He's figuratively lost control of the court as a result.

SCOTUS is coming for everything we've depended on since 1965 (Griswold).

 
Posted : June 25, 2022 11:22 pm
PorkchopBob reacted
theotherbrothers
(@theotherbrothers)
Trusted Member
 

Sounds like anything can be changed after a generation of judges ends. In 30-40 years, the court will be liberal, and the country will pivot back to where it was before. It's sad that millions of women won't have say over their own health and bodies until then. In the meantime, let the red and blue states "proceed by their own design". I like the idea of people moving to states that suit their lifestyle. I wish the red states luck dealing with all their disadvantaged teens' babies populating their towns and cities. 

This post was modified 2 months ago by theotherbrothers
 
Posted : June 26, 2022 5:34 pm
theotherbrothers
(@theotherbrothers)
Trusted Member
 

If the right hated supporting families with 10 kids on welfare before, wait until 5 years from now when costs/taxes start rising even more, along with more broken homes, more foster care, a greater need for parents willing to adopt, and the list goes on. 

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by theotherbrothers
 
Posted : June 26, 2022 10:49 pm
robertdee
(@robertdee)
Famed Member
 

@theotherbrothers I voted for Bill Clinton years ago. President Clinton's position then was abortion should be legal, safe and RARE!. President Biden in an interview when Vice-President said abortion is horrible and should be a last resort. 

Trump promised in 2016 if you voted for him he would ONLY nominate judges who will overturn Roe v. Wade. Many conservative Catholics and other denominational Christians have found the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision state sponsored MURDER and the killing of unwanted human beings. I use to go to Catholic Church. Many conservatives predicted the liberal antichristian secularists will next begin killing old people who are now useless and taking up space and sucking up money in rest and nursing homes. Apparently that hasn't happened except perhaps in New York State ( my second home) Governor Como put hundreds of Covid patients in homes for the elderly infecting and killing them. I doubted that story until I saw a New York based Journalist, last name Dean, claiming that is exactly how her father in-law died. New York State put a Covid patient in her father in-law's nursing home room. 

Conservative Catholics and other Christians are elated over this decision from what I'm seeing online on Catholic sources and was expecting the Catholic justices now on the court to overturn. But I'm reading this weekend to many conservatives it didn't go far enough. At the moment this difficult decision is in the hands of state lawmakers. Through them the people in each state decide the abortion laws. Liberal states such as California and New York will continue to have abortion on demand. Conservative states such as Texas and Mississippi will ban it. 

Some liberals want abortion to be an option up to the day before the due date!!  Some conservatives want ALL abortions outlawed as to them even in cases of rape and insest it's still the taking of a human life who has no way to protect himself. 

What I struggle with is WHEN DOES HUMAN LIFE BEGIN?? The Catholic Church and their scientists posit human life BEGINS AT CONCEPTION!! The DNA is set and so is who this person is. Sex, eye color, hair etc. It is NOT part of the mother's body BUT ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL with half of her genetic blueprint and half of the father's. 

Liberals contend it's not a person but a fetus, a cluster of cells with the potential to become a separate and distinct human being. Generally that happens during the second trimester. 

So when IS abortion nothing more than removing a growth or cell cluster and when is it removing a human being separate and distinct from the mother?

These are deep decisions for most people. 

Should money be spent to council women in any state, red or blue, not to have unprotected sex or sex without birth control when they have no desire to have a child? Should the father be sat on and required to provide substantial child support? And to be more careful and mindful of unwanted outcomes when having sex. Put on a mask to protect from Covid and a condom to protect from the state giving him a big child support bill. 

 

 

 

 
Posted : June 27, 2022 7:13 pm
robertdee
(@robertdee)
Famed Member
 

Apparently the Catholic Church is running the Supreme Court now. We already know Trump put three conservative Catholics on the court. I checked yesterday and Justice Thomas is a Catholic too. 

And so are President Biden and Speaker Pelosi. But they, while claiming to take the teachings of the Catholic Church and Jesus seriously, they keep those positions to themselves and do not attempt to place Catholic teaching on people who are not Catholic or even a Christian. We have agnostics, atheists, Jews, Muslims and many religions which are not Christian and Catholic specifically. 

Speaker Pelosi and Biden are catching a lot of flack from the Catholics. Some Catholics stand at Biden's home church and hold up " HYPOCRITE" signs for him to see as he enters for Holy Communion. 

Speaker Pelosi has been denied Christ's table at her home church. Got this Catholic publication here plus the same copy was in USA Today newspaper. 

This is from Archbishop Salvatore J. Cordileone of Speaker Pelosi's California Parrish. 

" After numerous attempts to speak with Speaker Pelosi to help her understand the grave evil she is perpetrating, the scandal she is causing, and the danger to her own soul she is risking, I have determined that SHE IS NOT TO BE ADMITTED TO HOLY COMMUNION". 

How will this end? Red states and blue states separating into two different countries? Will be have another civil war but this time over social issues? I hope not. 

 
Posted : June 27, 2022 7:31 pm
Rusty
(@rusty)
Famed Member
 

@robertdee I think Jason Isbell said it best - "eggs ain't chickens!"  

 
Posted : June 27, 2022 8:04 pm
robertdee
(@robertdee)
Famed Member
 

@rusty But eventually there is a chicken in the egg. When the chicken pecks it's way out of the egg it is fully formed. Same with an alligator.

At some point is there a chicken in there? 

I don't practice a religion in recent years but are Catholics right about life begins at conception arguing the embryo has its own DNA profile separate from the mother? 

Or does the fetus become a human being at 12 weeks or 18 weeks or whatever? 

I assume most people would support banning abortion at that point. I'm torn between my previous religious teachings I never really kept and is it okay morally to terminate beyond 1st or 2nd trimester? 

These are very difficult and profound decisions. On TV today a woman in Mississippi has a 5 year old and a 3 year old and now has a third pregnancy that she said she simply can't afford. She planned to abort that one and now she may have to go to another state which she can't afford. 

This doesn't seem to have a black or white answer. I don't want to see the government nose into a woman's privacy and her personal rights. But I don't want a human being killed. 59 percent of people in a CBS News poll just conducted support reproductive rights. The further along one gets in a pregnancy the more that number comes down with just 11 percent supporting a right to abortion in the 8th or 9th month. 

Well I'm 75 and have a TILT sign on my back and OUT OF ORDER sign on my chest so perhaps I should stop thinking about it. 

 
Posted : June 27, 2022 8:55 pm
Rusty
(@rusty)
Famed Member
 

@robertdee An abortion ay 8 or 9 months - barring some form of medical emergency or risk to the mother seems drastic.  I'll give ya that.  Consider a method like the "abortion pill"  or "day after pill" (I do not know the name of any said drug) - which basically causes immediate menstruation (period).  At this point, the stage of life (if you can really call it that) isn't much more than a tablespoon of sperm and blood (forgive me for my street science terms).   This seems safe and practical.

 
Posted : June 27, 2022 9:11 pm
cyclone88 reacted
robertdee
(@robertdee)
Famed Member
 

@rusty It sounds as if a woman could take a "morning after pill" and never know if she got pregnant then. Perhaps having those available would work for most people on both sides on this. 

Some Democrats on TV today are so angry. They talk of impeaching the newest Justices for lying during their confirmation hearings

And expanding the number of Justices, adding 6 new ones that absolutely must demonstrate they support abortion rights and give the court 15 justices. 

Where would that stop? Change the rules by both sides when you don't get your way? Republicans today on the TV news channels are angry Trump was called not legitimate before he was sworn in, subjected to an Independent Council searching for evidence Trump worked with Putin to steal the election from Hillary, then two impeachment proceedings and now the Democrats have a rigged January 6th committee with the illusion it is by partisan with no one at the hearings pushing back on the charges as one would see in a court of law. Kevin McCarthy thinks certain Democrats want to put Trump in jail which will serve to move the country closer to civil war on the streets of many cities. So certain Republicans who are confident the high cost of gasoline, food, everything else, sharp rise in crime, the southern border in complete failure with thousands of illegal crossings etc etc will assure they will control the House and Senate this November so they plan to open hearing to impeach Biden!! 

This tit for tat developing between the two political parties I think is just making the country more and more polarized and closer to the country splitting in half into two countries. 

I hope my state is in the country I like because I'm too old to move!! 

 

 
Posted : June 27, 2022 10:18 pm
cyclone88
(@cyclone88)
Noble Member
 

@robertdee 

The questions you're posing are medical, philosophical, & religious not government policy ones. I hate the term "on demand" as though a woman is at a drive-thru ordering a burger. I think we have to assume women and couples give some thought and even prayer before making a decision to terminate.

I feel for married couples who learn through amniocentesis that if carried to term, their child will have a significant birth defect. Babies also die in the womb & removal is technically abortion, but its demise can risk the health of the mother if not removed. I find the callous approach to both rape & incest victims to be far from any religious teachings of love & compassion.

Catholics and evangelical Christians are not the only religions to oppose abortion. Some Jewish doctors refuse to perform abortions for religious reasons. Not all branches of Judaism concur on abortion - one interpretation is based on the teaching that a fetus is not a soul until it is born & denying abortion access for the health & well-being of the living Jewish woman raises one religious (Christian) doctrine over Judaism.

 

 
Posted : June 27, 2022 10:22 pm
Rusty reacted
PorkchopBob
(@porkchopbob)
Famed Member
Topic starter
 

Remember when Kennedy was elected and everyone wondered if he'd answer to Rome before the Constitution? Well, he didn't, but Justice Alito apparently does. He managed to do a victory lap during a speech to foreign Catholics in Rome.

"Religious liberty is under attack in many places because it is dangerous to those who want to hold complete power," Alito said. "It also probably grows out of something dark and deep in the human DNA -- a tendency to distrust and dislike people who are not like ourselves," he added.

People were suspicious of a Catholic in the White House, but we've come a long way in 60 years. Today practically nobody cares that Biden is a Catholic, but apparently Justice Alito feels...persecuted? Seriously?

Religious groups have never had more freedom to practice and less persecution, especially Christian sects because he certainly isn't speaking on behalf of Jewish and Muslims who actually have been persecuted in the US in recent years. Based on recent Supreme Court decisions, Alito's idea of "religious freedom" is state sponsorship (as if being tax-free isn't enough). This is kind of nuts coming from one of the highest Jurists in the country, and an interpreter of our Constitution.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/28/politics/samuel-alito-religious-liberty-notre-dame-rome/index.html

PorkchopBob Studio

 
Posted : July 29, 2022 12:56 pm
cyclone88 reacted
Page 1 / 2
Share: