I keep hearing, and seeing, blurbs about "Stay with (insert network) until all the votes are counted."
With the mail in and absentee votes coming in, just how long do you think the broadcasters will stay on air, and when will the networks start to "call" the states as won and lost?
I don't actually think that all votes will be accounted for till Thursday and anybody who can "call it" is just fooling themselves.
Days? Weeks?
I think I heard Trump say years? He must not be planning on leaving!
I'll play along ... briefly.
I can't see an honest, full count of votes taking more than a week at longest. Trump whined like a little baby after the last election until he realized that he'd only "lost" by enough votes to actually emerge as a victor via the (archaic) Electoral College system.
Suppose Trump does "lose"? How long should he be allowed to cry before being escorted to a time-out corner?
"YEARS"??? Seriously??? If a recount went into (what should be) the next administration - should Biden (if he turns out to be declared the victor) be entitled to a "pro-rated" term? Should the next election be moved forward to allow him his full 4 year term?
I believe states must legally seat their electors for the electoral college by December 9th. Or maybe December 12th...One of those dates anyway.
Barring any credible law suit filed by either campaign, the seating process most likely will happen on the required date and so we could have a winner by early December. Of course all sorts of challenges could throw that way off.
Personally I think Trump will piss and moan and lie about all sorts of perceived fraud but the question is whether the courts will take up any lawsuits and whether he’ll win any of them..
I think it may take up to a week for all the states to count everything. That doesn't mean we won't know the winner sooner. I think networks will call the states when the number of uncounted votes is unlikely to change the outcome.
Come election day, we might have results from Florida and/or Texas. Realistically, if Biden wins either, then it's over. If it all comes down to Pennsylvania, then we may have to wait between a few days and a week.
Hopefully this time the networks will remember that Florida is in TWO time zones.
Could ask; how long until extreme supporters on either losing side protest the results in the streets? Because that is coming by whoever loses.
Could ask; how long until extreme supporters on either losing side protest the results in the streets? Because that is coming by whoever loses.
I think you may be right. Especially if the winner loses the popular vote by a big percentage.
Florida sent out the absentee ballots early so theirs will be counted by election night. Wisconsin said theirs will not be all counted till December. Each state has different procedures and time frames, there needs to be order to the process as it was documented that some early voting ballot boxes in Boston were burned. Philadelphia will have problems due to the rioting going on. In metro NY if you physically go to vote early you have to wait hours. One person I know went last weekend and waited three hours just to vote. I put mine in the mail and that's that. Texas is calling out their state National Guard in their major cities, Dallas, Houston, Fort Worth, San Antonio and Austin [Alex Jones land]. Like they say, don't mess with Texas.
Now on Election: Day TWO!
And then after GOP suppression strategies along with Postmaster General antics, Trump will reach out to the courts. If you can't get the votes, then eliminate votes. Democracy in some eyes doesn't mean everyone should have a vote even if they are entitled.
And then after GOP suppression strategies along with Postmaster General antics, Trump will reach out to the courts. If you can't get the votes, then eliminate votes. Democracy in some eyes doesn't mean everyone should have a vote even if they are entitled.
Which is precisely why I never shared your optimism about this election. There are way too many people who think Trump is the world's best leader for this to have been anything but the closest of races w/Trump laying the foundation to negate votes months beforehand. The election process is just one of the many inconveniences that the administration has stumbled upon. My conversations today w/like-minded people have been "wow, I can't believe there are that many people who still don't see him for who he is." I still haven't watched/read the 1st thing about the election so I'll leave it to those of you who are following it to dissect it. I'll tune in in mid-January to see who'll be inaugurated.
... Democracy in some eyes doesn't mean everyone should have a vote even if they are entitled.
Uhhh ... I believe that's EXACTLY what "Democracy" means.
... Democracy in some eyes doesn't mean everyone should have a vote even if they are entitled.
Uhhh ... I believe that's EXACTLY what "Democracy" means.
"a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state"
And then after GOP suppression strategies along with Postmaster General antics, Trump will reach out to the courts. If you can't get the votes, then eliminate votes. Democracy in some eyes doesn't mean everyone should have a vote even if they are entitled.
Which is precisely to have Joewhy I never shared your optimism about this election. There are way too many people who think Trump is the world's best leader for this to have been anything but the closest of races w/Trump laying the foundation to negate votes months beforehand. The election process is just one of the many inconveniences that the administration has stumbled upon. My conversations today w/like-minded people have been "wow, I can't believe there are that many people who still don't see him for who he is." I still haven't watched/read the 1st thing about the election so I'll leave it to those of you who are following it to dissect it. I'll tune in in mid-January to see who'll be inaugurated.
I too have had many conversations like yours - "My conversations today w/like-minded people have been "wow, I can't believe there are that many people who still don't see him for who he is."
I never moved off of my optimism and won't change that in spite of Trump's shenanigans and lies. I also believe there is "fate" to have Joe as next POTUS to rid this country of all of the horrible things that Donald Trump is, has said, and has done. We are better and deserve better than Donald Trump.
Looks like the winner will be known by the end of the week - Joe won former GOP strongholds AZ & Michigan - could the challenger be en route to victory???
”Even If He Loses, Trump Has Won”
that was the deeply moving heavy duty headline earlier today attributed to the LA Times
Hopefully it won’t have to be decided by the Supreme Court - after 100 & 100 of millions of votes, what if it came down to a best 5 of 9
I've waited four years - wotts another week? 
I too have had many conversations like yours - "My conversations today w/like-minded people have been "wow, I can't believe there are that many people who still don't see him for who he is."
I never moved off of my optimism and won't change that in spite of Trump's shenanigans and lies. I also believe there is "fate" to have Joe as next POTUS to rid this country of all of the horrible things that Donald Trump is, has said, and has done. We are better and deserve better than Donald Trump.
To clarify, the popular vote should be shocking, but it's not. As of now, 69mm voters think white supremacy, inhumane immigration policies, & ignorance is fine, science & experts are fairy tales, lying & corruption are SOP, denigrating women & the disabled is ok, the best course of action against a pandemic is to do nothing, allies are useless, & licking Russia, China, & N. Korea is a fine activity. 72mm voters, including me, disagree. We have a deeply divided country. The US as a whole may NOT deserve better than Donald Trump.
Trump detected & exploited this divide in this term. He didn't create racists, religious zealots, isolationists, & philistinism; he exploited them. That says more about Americans than it does Trump.
Your optimism that moral & humane outrage will deliver us from Trump isn't quite so well-founded when looking at the popular vote. A landslide for Biden would've shown that voters in 2016 were hoodwinked, they now see clearly, & want to stop the hate & corruption. I still hope you're right in the outcome, but the divide remains.
@cyclone88 Currently, Biden currently holds 50.4% (about 3 million more votes) than Trump. That's not too far from where Hillary sat in 2016.
I made a biological analogy in another thread: all tortoises are turtles but all turtles are not tortoises. All Republicans aren't racist/hater-supremacists - yet there are few(any?) Klansmen/Proud Boys et al voting Democrat. I have some FISCAL Conservative in me. I get the idea of protecting your 401K and your market investments. Like it or not, you can't depend on "passbook interest" to keep up with inflation. I even get the idea of being tough on crime (I wish that this would include "white collar" crime).
The problem that I see - in certain friends, associates and even relatives is that a lot of Trump's support come from people who dislike or fear folks with darker skin and brown eyes - period.. Most of these types are not CONSERVATIVE at all - in terms of being religious or in spending/investing. A lot of 'em ain't got a "pot or a window" (southerners will understand this adage 😉 ).
It's the last part of your statement - the highly visible display of hatred of brown, black, women, disabled, & anyone else that isn't white & straight & willingness - even eagerness - to turn a blind eye to their healthcare, job, or housing needs that is troublesome. 69 million Americans don't care about those fellow Americans.
What the average voter doesn't understand is that fiscal conservatism isn't about individuals; it's about big business (microsoft not the now-closed family-owned restaurant), financial institutions, & public spending. The president isn't going to protect anyone's 401(k); that's the job of Congress.
Anyone who was looking for a repudiation of Trump's corruption, illegal tactics, belief in white supremacy, & dismissal of experts didn't get it. Although I understand your bio analogy & agree that not every GOP vote signals a corrupt racist, about 1/2 the voters still think Trump's incompetence, corruption, volatility, & self-enrichment is ok. That's disturbing.
Moreover, we should all be concerned about a lame duck Trump. Never one to do the right thing, he's going to wreak as much havoc & carry out personal vendettas (like firing Fauci) as he can before the Inauguration.
I too have had many conversations like yours - "My conversations today w/like-minded people have been "wow, I can't believe there are that many people who still don't see him for who he is."
I never moved off of my optimism and won't change that in spite of Trump's shenanigans and lies. I also believe there is "fate" to have Joe as next POTUS to rid this country of all of the horrible things that Donald Trump is, has said, and has done. We are better and deserve better than Donald Trump.
To clarify, the popular vote should be shocking, but it's not. As of now, 69mm voters think white supremacy, inhumane immigration policies, & ignorance is fine, science & experts are fairy tales, lying & corruption are SOP, denigrating women & the disabled is ok, the best course of action against a pandemic is to do nothing, allies are useless, & licking Russia, China, & N. Korea is a fine activity. 72mm voters, including me, disagree. We have a deeply divided country. The US as a whole may NOT deserve better than Donald Trump.
Trump detected & exploited this divide in this term. He didn't create racists, religious zealots, isolationists, & philistinism; he exploited them. That says more about Americans than it does Trump.
Your optimism that moral & humane outrage will deliver us from Trump isn't quite so well-founded when looking at the popular vote. A landslide for Biden would've shown that voters in 2016 were hoodwinked, they now see clearly, & want to stop the hate & corruption. I still hope you're right in the outcome, but the divide remains.
Note that my optimism all along and my recent moral addition that Joe would win never specified margins or percentages of victory. As much as I would like a big factor difference here, given the divide in this country I realize that's not practical. A win is a win is a win. If Trump is not reelected, then that is a start. Changes to societal views are slow coming and maybe not practical. Certain views never change with pockets of the population. An additional question which will go a ways in determining how much reconciliation can occur is seeing how much of Trumpism dies off & hopefully quickly for the good of the country.
I know; you never specified a margin. This isn't personal.
The point I'm making is that even now - after 4 years of corruption, self-enrichment, hatred, frightening foreign policy, & white supremacy - almost 1/2 the voters think Trump's an acceptable leader of the US. What he - along w/radical right media - have done is emboldened those societal views that were not "the norm" 4 years ago. Positive societal change may have come slowly - specifically the Civil Rights movement, but it seems to come pretty rapidly for those looking for a reason to hate. There are Trump voters surrounding a Biden bus to slow it, run it off the road, or worse in TX. There are armed groups plotting the kidnapping of state governors - the boldness it takes to do that emerged fairly quickly.
Biden isn't going to snuff it out. It's there & if Trump finds an outlet to encourage his supporters (through acquisition of a media organization) in between facing criminal charges withheld until he was no longer president, those emboldened haters aren't going away anymore than Covid is. At least, there's work for a vaccination against Covid; no vaccine for blind hatred. Trump isn't going to miss any opportunities in his last days in office to promotion divisiveness not healing.
I know; you never specified a margin. This isn't personal.
The point I'm making is that even now - after 4 years of corruption, self-enrichment, hatred, frightening foreign policy, & white supremacy - almost 1/2 the voters think Trump's an acceptable leader of the US. What he - along w/radical right media - have done is emboldened those societal views that were not "the norm" 4 years ago. Positive societal change may have come slowly - specifically the Civil Rights movement, but it seems to come pretty rapidly for those looking for a reason to hate. There are Trump voters surrounding a Biden bus to slow it, run it off the road, or worse in TX. There are armed groups plotting the kidnapping of state governors - the boldness it takes to do that emerged fairly quickly.
Biden isn't going to snuff it out. It's there & if Trump finds an outlet to encourage his supporters (through acquisition of a media organization) in between facing criminal charges withheld until he was no longer president, those emboldened haters aren't going away anymore than Covid is. At least, there's work for a vaccination against Covid; no vaccine for blind hatred. Trump isn't going to miss any opportunities in his last days in office to promotion divisiveness not healing.
cyclone - I didn't take anything personally. Actually I agree with you about 95% of the time & am onboard with your quoted post. I don't take anything personally on this site because there are only a few here who know me.
I think the sunshine right now is that it certainly looks like we only have 2 more months or so of Trump in the WH. Of course, it's now over until it's over...so fingers crossed. Trump has given plenty of light, cover, and has emboldened factions of the population and many of those you have alluded to. There will never be perfect society, but a good start is cutting off the snake's head. Trump loves to pit one vs the other. He always looks in terms of winners vs losers. Things are not so simplistic to always have binary choices in the terms he thinks. As I mentioned before, we can and do better - sort of like the "Be Best", but more than just a slogan from another enabler of Trump.
If there is a silver lining to the Trump administration it is that he has flushed the haters out of hiding and into the open via his condoning them. His refusal to condemn the ranks of the "Proud-Boogaloo-Qanon Boys" and others emboldened them to step out into the daylight. We know exactly who they are now!
I think more importantly Trump's shenanigans the past four years have showed that we need codified written laws to prevent the outright felonies and abuses of Trump world from happening by any president or his/her family and administration.
For instance, mandatory release of tax returns and if they refuse the IRS is required to release them as well as any audit a president may be under.
Written laws that strengthen the Emoluments clause of the constitution to prevent self enrichment by any sitting president. Actual accountability of supposed blind trusts that a president places his/her businesses in. Such as annual reporting and actual proof that a third party controls the business and assets.
Perhaps most important would be a change to the procedures and laws that govern the use of nuclear weapons by a sitting president. While obviously important for deterrence, we need additional safeguards and required processes in which a president can use nuclear weapons. Trump's flippant threat to nuke North Korea is just such an example of a clueless president using the threat of nuclear annihilation because his ego was bruised.
Some sort of reform of the Justice Department and the Attorney General's office to prevent it from becoming the personal attack dog for the president. The same goes for the pardon process. There should be stricter limits on how this power is used by a sitting president to infringe upon investigations into them personally or people in their administration.
While we made efforts at some of the aboce after the Nixon administration, many of these efforts were never codified in actual law and it was 50 years ago. The time has come for Congress to revisit and strengthen these "norms" with actual laws with actual teeth.
Yesterday morning I said to my wife how depressed I was that regardless who wins, roughly 1/2 of the country voted for a lying, racist, mysogonistic, homophobic, narcissistic pig. How can America become like that
Then I talked to a bunch of people at work and heard that people are concerned about taxes, their 401K, etc. Personally, I think that the President has little to do with performance of 401K, but not everyone agrees. Many of these people don't like the fact that Trump is a lying, mysoginistic, racist, etc but don't have the luxury to worry about that. They need the returns on their 401K, or their job or business to eat, so nothing else matters, and they think (wrongly imo) that Trump will help them. I get it. So things may not be as bad as they seem.
Although, plenty of people love that Trump is a racist, homophobic, power hungry pig. I hope that most Trump voters do not.
Here's to America
Not buying it unless 69 million Americans are so financially illiterate that they believe the president affects their 401(k). As Rusty said, not all 69 million fit your description that matches mine, but a significant percentage do. Until we admit that we have a deeply divided country, there isn't going to be any healing or bipartisan efforts to move forward. Biden or anyone else can't undo what Trump has unleashed, especially if he continues to play a role in firing up his disciples through a media acquisition.
I’m not saying everyone is like that. You could also argue that they are tacitly allowing racism to happen and I agree
i agree that the country is divided. People that get their news only from Fox only hear the lies that Trump tells them, and they believe. The country needs to heal and it would be great if everyone took a deep breath and listened carefully and critically to what our leaders say (pessimistic)
im just saying the same thing I say to those that say- you leftists all ...
you can’t paint everyone with the same brush
We're saying the same thing. No one has said all 69 million are racists, misogynists, haters except for a few who are mistakenly protecting their 401(k), but there's no denying there are Trumpsters, MAGAs, & Fox News watchers. My point - augmented by rusty & martind28 - is that it's unfortunate that there wasn't more of a repudiation against Trump's leadership of/hate & lies & an affirmation that the US is a democracy not an autocratic state.
Growing up in the south, I remember George Wallace standing in the door of one of the University of Alabama buildings proclaiming, "... segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!"
Later on, Wallace (and some of his cabinet members and others) defended his speech. They said that Wallace didn't really feel that way himself and that his speech was to reflect what the electorate (Alabamians and other deep southerners) wanted to hear. In other words, he was saying this $hit because he knew it would help with his popularity.
I actually bought into this idea ... for a while. Then it dawned on me that anybody who was not a racial bigot - who actually really believed that all men were created equal but would stoop to such rhetoric was actually WORSE than a racist. A person like this is selling out his own very soul just to keep political power!
So it occurs to me now - no, not all of the Republican supporters ARE actual racist-sexist-bigots. But the ones who are not - yet continue to support someone like Donald Trump are willing to lie in the same bed as those who would otherwise disgust them.
I've got a 401K and some market shares that mean a lot towards my continued retirement. But I'm willing to suffer a down cycle if it means disassociating myself from these types.
Weird thing: a lot of these supporters DO NOT have investments ... or even a health insurance plan. I know a few who are even on disability or Social Security. They do not realize that when Republican elected official speaks of "getting rid of all the dead wood" that THEY are among the people being talked about. I have more than one such relative who will call me on the phone and call me a Pinko-Commie-Yellow livered-Socialist one day ... and call me back the next week asking for a sizeable loan so that they don't lose their giant tire SUV or their double-wide to the bank. ... and it's never a "loan".
Peace, y'all.
R
