CC is far more famous than Robert E. Lee. Confederate flags and monuments are misplaced. They perhaps should be in museums.
This seems to be the moment when Americans stand up & say, "the CSA lost the Civil War, there are 50 states in the US, and the time for symbols of/monuments to a CSA that existed for only 4 years before being defeated to come down is now." They're intimidating, divisive, & appealing symbols for white supremacists. They shouldn't be on public display anywhere in the US. As Rusty pointed out, most of them have no artistic value - having been made from the same mold w/just a different face - & don't belong in museums. Private collectors are welcome to them.
Columbus is an entirely separate issue that is, as you say, of global importance but isn't immediately critical to promoting unity & healing in the US. It doesn't bear as directly on the US except as you note in the etymology of geographic locations. The same could be said for many cities, towns, & states. The name of the state of Hawaii is from a polynesian mythological figure. Most of the 13 colonies were named to represent English/French figures & geography - Charles, Elizabeth, Raleigh, Georgia, York, Hampshire, de la Warre, Louis.
As long as we are cleaning house, might as well ditch that Columbus bastard while we are at it. He was a murderous slaving monster.
I don't disagree, but no Native Americans died w/a white cop's foot on his neck for 9 minutes in the past month that has sparked outrage throughout the world. Today, people are focused on removing Confederate symbols created by Americans to be used against other Americans. Native Americans' biggest problem right now is getting the state of South Dakota to allow them check points to monitor visitors who might be sick w/ or carriers of COVID19.
Columbus was a European who came in & enslaved Native Americans. The Civil was was internal.
If Columbus statues are torn down - especially the one in Columbus Circle - along w/Confederate monuments, works for me.
Another statue down in Virginia. This morning at 7 am, a confederate statue in Norfolk VA was professionally removed at the mayor's direction. It was so nondescript that no one knows exactly how long it had been there & was known only as "Johnny Reb." It was moved to a cemetery of confederate soldiers.
The mayor ordered it removed ASAP after protesters' attempt to remove 4 statues in neighboring Portsmouth VA resulted in a broken piece of a statue hitting a man in the head & causing him to lose consciousness. He's reported to be in a medically induced coma w/life-threatening injuries.
Couldn't they all be professionally removed? People are tearing down statues both here & abroad; they're tired of debate & court shenanigans. The statues are coming down/being defaced one way or another.
Who's going to design the new American flag?
Virginia, Nascar, Philadelphia, will reap what they have sown. If these institutions think that taking down a few statues is going to stop the Trump train, then I've got news for the left - we will win again in November riding a wave of the best economy this country has ever seen.
^HahahahahahahahahahHah Ahhhhhahahahaha. Very subtle
You can't erase Christooher Columbus by removing his statues. Washington, D. C., Columbus, Ohio, British Columbia, the Columbia River, Columbus, Georgia etc etc etc. Statues in Spain, Ireland etc. Columbus is too famous to remove.
Mayor of New York promised to remove Christopher Columbus from Columbus circle then a group of Italian citizens raised hell and uninvited him to their annual celebration in Manhattan and de Blasio chucked out.
Columbia Records, Columbia Pictures, CBS...the Columbia Broadcasting System. Columbia University in New York City.
Columbia is a Latin toponym in use since 1730 with reference to the 13 Colonies which would go on to form The United States of America. It is a toponym from the name of the Italian explorer Christopher Columbus and means Land of Columbus.
Washington, District of Columbia or Land of Columbus.
How in hell could any protesters erase Chris' name or toppling 4 or 5 statues put a dent in Chris having a huge spot in U.S. and world history. It's like trying to drain a swamp with a tea spoon!!
Virginia, Nascar, Philadelphia, will reap what they have sown. If these institutions think that taking down a few statues is going to stop the Trump train, then I've got news for the left - we will win again in November riding a wave of the best economy this country has ever seen.
Yeah, I think the Trump train jumped the tracks a while back. I'm not saying that he couldn't pull a miracle out of his hat by cheating his way to an electoral college win, but it really seems to be as unlikely as Coronavirus being gone by April.
Can't let this pass - won't further derail thread, but will just point out that you may want to brush up on your Native American history and current events. South Dakota pipeline ring a bell? Cops setting dogs on kids? Peabody Coal in Arizona gutting Navajo/Hopi land? Uranium mining? Strife at Pine Ridge? And on and on.
Pull yourself together, Mr. Rabbit. Muleman1994 or whatever he's calling himself is driving you off the rails. I was pointing out TODAY, 6/12/00, the most immediate problem for the Native American population is protecting themselves against COVID19 given that colonists & western "settlers" brought them almost every other disease known to Europeans that they couldn't survive. They're still getting heat about monitoring the entry/exit of possible carriers on the state highway; the governor finally conceded that she couldn't do anything about federal highways. So, although I'm well versed in history, I didn't see the need to drag that into what was originally a positive thread about municipalities finally realizing that Confederate monuments are abhorrent & coming down after the death of George Flloyd.
I'm also well aware of the Columbus problem - especially the NY politicians who crumble every single time they pretend they're going to remove the monument at Central Park South - & the history behind it. I pass the loathsome thing every single day.
You've become quite arrogant in the "you must've missed, forgotten, don't know" approach since the arrival of the mysterious new member that is most unlike you. Get a grip.
^ Criticism fair and accepted. You don't know me, if you did you would know that I dedicated much of my life to the Native American cause - so yes I am springloaded on this - it isn't "arrogance" it is simply a matter I feel more strongly about, and have studied and directly experienced more than 99.99999 % per cent of Americans.
It is as relevant and timely as the rest of this revolution against White-washed history.
That said - I will bow out of your thread, which you have made clear is for discussion of Civil War monuments, and I apologize for expanding upon the topic.
No, I don't know you & am glad to hear of your expertise in Native American causes. You didn't bring Columbus or Washington/Jefferson or any other non-Confederate topics into the thread. The thread was started during the protests when Confederate monument heads literally started to roll. It's long overdue & I'd like to celebrate one thing before we (as much as this arcane music forum does anything) attack other issues. I personally can't do any more than COVID19, Confederate monuments, & get a handle on #Defundthepolice w/an occasional foray into Island Allman. I come here to get away from the bickering & one upsmanship of legal sites.
I used the term "arrogance" because starting off a thread w/"you must've missed, forgotten, don't know" is reminiscent of some other posters who do attack w/misplaced arrogance & I don't think that is your intention.
All good.
Virginia, Nascar, Philadelphia, will reap what they have sown. If these institutions think that taking down a few statues is going to stop the Trump train, then I've got news for the left - we will win again in November riding a wave of the best economy this country has ever seen.
Yeah, I think the Trump train jumped the tracks a while back. I'm not saying that he couldn't pull a miracle out of his hat by cheating his way to an electoral college win, but it really seems to be as unlikely as Coronavirus being gone by April.
Well as long as there's voter suppression, he might have a slim chance, but each day looks worse for 1 term Trump. Will be one more reason for him to be jealous of Obama.
You guys saying good riddance to Christopher Columbus:) Chris is still here. I said Chris IS TOO FAMOUS to expunge.
Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio said yesterday COLUMBUS CIRCLE AND THE STATUE OF CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS WILL NOT BE REMOVED!!!!!! The circle and statue have been in Manhattan since 1892, the 400th anniversary of Columbus' first voyage by ITALIANS living in New York City.
Mayor de Blasio agreed to change the name of Columbus Circle and remove the statue in response to a group of citizens who found the circle offensive and the Italian community in New York raised hell!!! They informed de Blasio they would NOT vote for him again and uninvited him to the yearly Italian celebration in New York City. De Blasio quickly changed his mind and Columbus Circle isn't going anywhere!!!!!
It is a total JOKE if anyone thinks Christopher Columbus has been removed.
Oh and Columbia University in Manhattan HAS NO PLANS TO CHANGE ITS NAME, NEITHER DOES WASHINGTON DC, COLUMBUS OHIO, COLUMBIA, SOUTH CAROLINA, BRITISH COLUMBIA AND THE COLUMBIA RIVER STILL FLOWS.
Christopher Columbus is TOO FAMOUS TO BE EXPUNGED!! His name is plastered all over North America and Europe. Too famous!
In a Sat morning session, an appeals court in Dallas granted the city's request to remove a 65' Confederate statue ASAP. The city has been bogged down in legal actions for a while, but the impetus (& winning argument) was that it's now a public safety issue. Because monuments have been toppled throughout the US & England, there is a danger that someone could be hurt should people decide there's been enough debate & it's time for action. A 30-yr-old man who was hit by a piece of a falling statue in Portsmouth VA is in a medically induced coma in life-threatening condition. The atrocity will be put in storage while further court appeals meander along.
CSA President1 aka Jefferson Davis's statue in the KY capitol rotunda was removed this morning. A special meeting was held Friday to vote to remove the 12' 5 ton statue that has been an issue for years, but the killing of Briona Taylor in Louisville as well as the protests following the killing of George Floyd caused the governor to act quickly.
An empty bottle of Glenmore Kentucky straight bourbon was found in the base of the monument. Other "artifacts" include a note inside the bottle as well as a newspaper from the day of placement.
Interesting how years of court battles, preservation rulings, & stalled debates are quickly usurped by the danger that protesters are going to do the work themselves or current politicians are made to look out-of-touch & racist if these monuments aren't removed ASAP.
Wonder what the note said?
THAT requires scientific analysis in a safe environment...Guess it's important to preserve a 1936 bourbon bottle in KY.
Confederate monuments should be put in museums. Most of these were erected long after the Civil War. And they are only in southern states for the most part. Places in cemeteries would be okay where Confederate soldiers lay. Columbus, Ohio has one where a civil war prison camp once was located and the enemy soldiers were given decent burials as hundreds died of disease, some just teenagers.
Christopher Columbus is nationwide and worldwide. Chris is too big and famous to be removed plus it will piss off the Italians as it did in Manhattan
Confederate monuments should be put in museums. Most of these were erected long after the Civil War. And they are only in southern states for the most part. Places in cemeteries would be okay where Confederate soldiers lay.
There are more than 700 of these monstrosities throughout the country, including CA, MT, AZ, CO, HI, ID, NM, OK, UT, & WY in addition to all the states that participated in both sides of the Civil War. As far as I can tell, only AK & MA don't have any so it's a national problem. As they were rarely commissioned, they were all cast from the same molds & have no artistic value. I don't care where they end up as long as it's not public space.
^ 700! Damn. Just read (Smithsonian) the US taxayer is maintaining these and funding Confederate heritage groups to the tune of 40 million $ a year. I couldn't find any in Oregon. Surprising, as Oregon is the most racist state in the Union.
So I wish we had a monument to tear down, bring attention to Oregon's shameful secret.
Sorry, I missed the lack of one in OR on the Map of Hate (So. Poverty Law Center). In addition to monuments, there are 100s more parks, roads, streets, natural features, etc. that have Confederate names & maintained by taxpayers. I omitted them because it's the monuments that are the most visible, were specifically placed to be intimidating, & most divisive.
Boston holds the bloodlines of our origins
(Sorry cyclone, off topic, but this guy took a dump on your thread and needs to be called out while it is still steaming). "Our origins" . . . Of course you are just working on your White Supremacist pig-holler here, but another angle on this is that yes, America's many bloodlines are well-represented in Boston, a multi-ethnic city.
[Edited on 6/14/2020 by BrerRabbit]
I don't have proprietary threads, but I do run off the tired old scuffles some of the usual suspects get into over semantics & rhetorical questions that make threads hard to read. I skip anything posted by that newbie so didn't notice what he said. Have at him.
hence why Boston is our oldest city that started everything.
Boston was founded in 1630, after European-founded cities St Augustine, Albany, Plymouth, Hopewell, and New Amsterdam.
Boston was founded in 1630, after European-founded cities St Augustine, Albany, Plymouth, Hopewell, and New Amsterdam.
Speaking of Virginia, Jamestown was settled by the 1st English speakers in 1607 followed by Polish & German speakers w/in 2 years. Of course, the Powhatan tribes had been there for at least a century beforehand.
Interesting. I thought only states that left the union and joined the Confederacy put up Confederate monuments. And most of those were installed in the 20th century to heal their wounds from loosing the war of northern aggression and to protect states rights as they called it. But often the memorials and the Confederate Flag was used to signal to blacks not to get out of line during segregation and Jim Crow. I remember when President Johnson signed the civil rights law in 1964 abolishing segregation in all 50 states as unconstitutional.
Many operations in the south suddenly became private clubs. Private bars, nightclubs, country clubs and blacks and Jews were denied membership.
But many restaurants, hotels and movie theaters obeyed the law and began allowing blacks in.
I'm not sure how Christopher Columbus got his name on so many things but in Manhattan his statue and circle near Central Park will remain. Mayor de Blasio got heavy push back from the Italian population. Columbus sailed for Spain but he was Italian.
Many Jews must not have a problem with Columbus. I think it was people from Latin America in New York who wanted Columbus removed. Harry Cohn, a Jew, named his motion picture studio Columbia Pictures and CBS television network stands for Columbia Broadcasting System.
One person on CNN suggested changing Washington, DC to Obama, IP. Drop the first President for the first black President and replace DC ( District of COLUMBIA) with IP (Indigenous People).
Good luck!!! It would take an act of Congress to rename the nation's capital. It was established by the U.S. Constitution. Then 2/3rds of the states would have to approve. Don't hold your breath. I predict not even your grandchildren will see Washington, DC get a name change. It's way, way too late and the name is too famous.
Funny how the left can conveniently look at the main issue here of Slavery which the DEMOCRATS are responsible for in the 1860's as something from the past and then in the same breath preach that the removal of STATUES commemorating that same period of time "Fixes" everything!
Interesting. I thought only states that left the union and joined the Confederacy put up Confederate monuments. And most of those were installed in the 20th century to heal their wounds from loosing the war of northern aggression and to protect states rights as they called it. But often the memorials and the Confederate Flag was used to signal to blacks not to get out of line during segregation and Jim Crow. I remember when President Johnson signed the civil rights law in 1964 abolishing segregation in all 50 states as unconstitutional.
There's never been anything healing about Confederate monuments. It's exactly as you said - installed in the 1890s through the 1950s to intimidate blacks.
There have been debates for decades about removing them given what we know to be true, but George Floyd's killing seems to have spurred people to action. Either they'll be knocked down by civilians or carefully removed w/precautions by local governments. As I've said before - amazing how quickly all those lengthy procedures were bypassed to get them down in less than a day in some places.
The latest ones include:
A 59' foot tall monument in Hemmings Park, Jacksonville (sorry, Trump, it won't be there in August)
Nashville
Murray KY (pending)
Funny how the left can conveniently look at the main issue here of Slavery which the DEMOCRATS are responsible for in the 1860's as something from the past and then in the same breath preach that the removal of STATUES commemorating that same period of time "Fixes" everything!
I normally don't respond to your gibberish, but the English brought slaves to the US to supplement the Native Americans enslaved by colonists who either fought them, relocated, or died of European diseases. No one here is preaching anything. This thread celebrates the fact that some of the 700 Confederate monuments built throughout the US to intimidate blacks are coming down after decades of BS arguments about historic preservation. It's ONE tiny step towards racial healing in this country about 150 years too late. The fact that anyone opposes the removal of an object meant to taunt one race that another is superior seems counter to both the constitution & the Civil Rights Act enacted 55+ years ago. No political affiliation addressed beyond being an American.
Funny how the left can conveniently look at the main issue here of Slavery which the DEMOCRATS are responsible for in the 1860's as something from the past and then in the same breath preach that the removal of STATUES commemorating that same period of time "Fixes" everything!
Democrats aren't "responsible" for slavery. It wasn't a partisan issue, the slave trade was international and precedes the founding of the Democratic Party in 1828.
And no one said it fixes "everything". But it helps.
Good luck!!! It would take an act of Congress to rename the nation's capital.
As I've mentioned before, this thread is about the good news that Confederate monuments are coming down.
Columbus has nothing to do w/this thread. If someone wants to start one about him, feel free.
As for Jews of which I am one, you might find an old (1988) book called An Empire of Their Own by Neal Gabler (also Jewish) about how the film industry was theoretically invented by Jews.
I am directly descended from a settler of Jamestown - Elizabeth Stout.
You ARE an interesting commenter. I'll find the book for cont'd lockdown reading.
Funny how the left can conveniently look at the main issue here of Slavery which the DEMOCRATS are responsible for in the 1860's as something from the past and then in the same breath preach that the removal of STATUES commemorating that same period of time "Fixes" everything!
You can repeat over and over that Democrats are responsible for slavery, but political party platforms have changed a bit in the last 150 years. At least today's Democrats seem to know where they stand. Meanwhile the Republicans are still trying to figure out if they are the "Party of Lincoln" or "The defenders of the Confederacy." You literally can't be both, as much as Republicans seem to want to claim both.
Meanwhile the Republicans are still trying to figure out if they are the "Party of Lincoln" or "The defenders of the Confederacy." You literally can't be both, as much as Republicans seem to want to claim both.
Yeah, the Republican Party's platform has changed a little since 1864. In addition to condemning slavery, they referred to the Confederacy as "traitors" - probably not an endorsement for hundreds of statues.
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1864
Other highlights that are still relevant:
That foreign immigration, which in the past has added so much to the wealth, development of resources and increase of power to the nation, the asylum of the oppressed of all nations, should be fostered and encouraged by a liberal and just policy.
That the National faith, pledged for the redemption of the public debt, must be kept inviolate, and that for this purpose we recommend economy and rigid responsibility in the public expenditures, and a vigorous and just system of taxation;
That we approve the position taken by the Government that the people of the United States can never regard with indifference the attempt of any European Power to overthrow by force or to supplant by fraud the institutions of any Republican Government on the Western Continent
Who's going to design the new American flag?
Melania.
