both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money
The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.
Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves
So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?
Some of the same people petitioning the removal of these statues have been asking that same question for 20+ years, usually met with pushback from the same crowd thats crying about these statues.
Our money looks like baseball cards for slave owners
-Dave Chappelle
So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well
So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well
How about starting a new thread re the selection process for US currency. This thread is limited to applauding the Virginia leaders for taking steps towards healing race relations by removing Confederate monuments. Once in a while, it's good to have a positive thread that doesn't deteriorate into off-topic gibberish.
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves
So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?
Some of the same people petitioning the removal of these statues have been asking that same question for 20+ years, usually met with pushback from the same crowd thats crying about these statues.
Our money looks like baseball cards for slave owners
-Dave ChappelleSo, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well
Sure why not? While we're at it, hurry up and get Andrew Jackson's face out of my wallet. The new $20 with Harriet Tubman on the front that was to be put in circulation this year was pushed back to 2028 thanks to Steve Mnuchin.
Here are some I think an easy case could be made for as replacemens, Frederick Douglas, JFK, MLK, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Jackie Robinson, Woody Guthrie maybe. Or here's an idea, don't put anyone's face on the currency.
So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well
How about starting a new thread re the selection process for US currency. This thread is limited to applauding the Virginia leaders for taking steps towards healing race relations by removing Confederate monuments. Once in a while, it's good to have a positive thread that doesn't deteriorate into off-topic gibberish.
Agreed, sorry for contributing to talking points of those who like to steer the topic off course. I'll keep any of my posts in this thread on topic
Agreed
I was hoping there'd be examples from other cities - like Indianapolis per LegalHemp - that are doing things like renaming streets not necessarily to honor George Floyd, but to let people know that subtle & not so subtle reminders of racism & oppression are everywhere & should be removed.
I know Cuomo wanted to change the name of 2 streets named after Confederate generals at the Ft. Hamilton Army base in Brooklyn after Charlottesville. I don't know whether that happened, but it did spark the removal of busts of Lee & Jackson from Bronx Community College's sculpture garden of Great Americans & a Brooklyn Episcopal congregation's removal of a plaque for Lee.
[Edited on 6/7/2020 by cyclone88]
both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money
The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.
Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.
OMG.....Exactly, the Legislature, NOT the people of Virginia...And if the men on currency were slave owners, it has EVERYTHING to do with the topic.
both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money
The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.
Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.
OMG.....Exactly, the Legislature, NOT the people of Virginia...And if the men on currency were slave owners, it has EVERYTHING to do with the topic.
I don't think the people on the currency lost a war fought against the US. Slavery aside, why honor those responsible for a war against the US. I will never understand those who fly both an American and a Confederate flag.
I will never understand those who fly both an American and a Confederate flag.
Me, either. A person was either a Confederate or an American - they were mutually exclusive. I don't get the support for states who seceded from the US & were defeated as something to exist 150 years later.
I haven't been to Germany in 2 years, but as I recall, there aren't statues of Hitler, Goering, Eichmann, Hess, & Himmler because they were banned along w/swastikas immediately after the war. Even buildings used by Nazis were torn down to prevent them from becoming attractive shrines to Neo-Nazis.
It took Germany 4 years (1949) to rid itself of symbols of a regime built on hate; the US still can't seem to do that.
Slavery aside
You have got to be kidding, right?...."Slavery aside"...How in the hell do you bring up the evils of the Confederacy, suggest they are traitors to the Union and then write "slavery aside". Is that not the argument for why the war was fought in the first place? Slavery?...And what could be more nefarious than owning someone? Jesus if you are going to heap false praise on the State of Virginia for destroying statues that are part of our history and ignore the people who actually participated in this stain, you may need to return to the classroom.
^ Muleman.
You're a bloodhound, although he does leave a rather heavily scented trail.
using this same logic
Your posts demonstrate that you aren't using logic & don't understand the title & purpose of the thread.
Since Floyd was killed, do you know of any cities that have renamed streets previously named for Confederates or torn down Confederate monuments in a gesture of solidarity w/the protesters or as a tribute to George Floyd or because it's the right thing to do? If so, please enumerate. That's the purpose of this thread - healing & commending those who are healing very old wounds. It's a positive thread.
I was enjoying the thread and hoping to hear you continue. I wouldn't censor your knowledge of history because a few people might find it objectionable.
I see you're new here, so a tip is that except for WP political threads, we tend to stay on topic. BigV is not someone who needs advice as to when to censor himself; he can handle himself.
If you're enjoying the thread, I hope you can add some instances of Confederate relics that have been destroyed, removed, or renamed post-Floyd to continue the conversation.
So, of course, the Virginia plan to remove a symbol of divisiveness & hate in an effort to show unity has been delayed by the action of one man - William Gregory, a descendant of the family from whom the land on which the statue stands was annexed in 1890. That's 130 years ago. Claiming the state has a duty to "faithfully guard" & "affectionately protect" the statue, Gregory went to court against the state. The judge ordered a 10-day injunction until the lawsuit can be heard.
Guess Mr. Gregory missed the news of George Floyd's death & the global protests that followed & are now in their third week.
The good news is that the governor's plan inspired the city of Fredericksburg to remove a slave auction block from its downtown (imagine keeping THAT as a symbol of what a great place Fredericksburg is), a Confederate statue was removed by the city of Alexandria, & protesters knocked down another Confederate general statue in Richmond.
Give it up, Mr. Gregory. Lee lost the war. The statue doesn't make him a winner.
If you're enjoying the thread, I hope you can add some instances of Confederate relics that have been destroyed, removed, or renamed post-Floyd to continue the conversation.
It's not a Confederate relic, but did you see this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/world/europe/edward-colston-statue-britain-racism.html
I'm kind of surprised at the ripple effect that has taken place internationally from the Floyd incident.
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves
So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves so they represent racism and slavery directly. Yes, the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and that's awful and how we revere them is worth a conversation (just as Columbus-worship has been for decades). But that's a different conversation than southern states continuing to lionize Confederates.
It's not a Confederate relic, but did you see this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/world/europe/edward-colston-statue-britain-racism.html
I'm kind of surprised at the ripple effect that has taken place internationally from the Floyd incident.
It is kind of amazing that finally, there is a case that is so heinous that the outrage is global. Who thinks a 5-century old monument to a slave trader should still be standing? Good for the protesters in Bristol who rid their city of this abomination. As the writer for The Guardian said they've been debating for years; now, they're acting.
Great Britain is who first imported African slaves to its American colonies. They're right to be thinking about their role.
And here I thought something positive might actually happen. Now, there's a second lawsuit by man who has nothing whatsoever to do w/the statue beyond disliking the graffiti that plagues it on the grounds that it violates the historic preservation status of the entire avenue on which it stands. A spokesperson for that organization has said its classification has nothing to do w/removing it. That jerk is representing himself - no doubt because he couldn't find a lawyer who would take a case for a client who doesn't even live in the city of Richmond trying to jump in.
Really, it makes me wish the state would just take a wrecking ball to the 20 foot high 12 ton statue & be done w/it.
In the "this is the 21st century in the US" spirit, two Confederate monuments were removed last week in AL - Birmingham & Mobile.
Elsewhere in Virginia, a county board decided to rename its recreation center from "Confederate Hills." Parents are asking school districts in another county to retitle schools named for famous Confederates. It's mind-boggling to me that Confederate-named anything has been allowed to exist 150+ years after the Confederate states were defeated & by proclamation were considered to be "of the whole United States."
It's mind-boggling to me that Confederate-named anything has been allowed to exist
"Been allowed"?
Is this not a free country?
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves
So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves so they represent racism and slavery directly. Yes, the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and that's awful and how we revere them is worth a conversation (just as Columbus-worship has been for decades). But that's a different conversation than southern states continuing to lionize Confederates.
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves
No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves
No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...
Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?
Was warching TV today and the topic was Trump's resistance on renaming military bases that were named after Confederate generals.
Steve Schmidt referred to Tump as the 2nd Confederate President. Seems like a good fit.
Trump: “Won’t Consider” Changing Base Names Honoring Confederates Who Fought for Slavery
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves
No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...
Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?
You call it semantics, as a Civil War buff, I will refer to it as accuracy
A real Whipping Post is gone. One Confederate statue situated on the site of a slave whipping post in Portsmouth VA was pulled down & 4 others were beheaded last night after the city council delayed a vote on removing the monuments. One protester in his 30s was injured when a piece of the statue hit him in the head when the rope pulling the statue down broke & he was taken to the hospital. The police had been ordered to stand by not to preserve property but life; they stepped in when the man was injured & the protesters disbanded w/o incident.
Later last night in Richmond, a 1907 paint-spattered statue of President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis was knocked down on Monument Ave in Richmond VA.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/richmond-jefferson-davis-statue-pulled-down-trnd/index.html
Although the mayor had announced plans to remove all Confederate statues on city land on the avenue ("Richmond is no longer the capitol of the Confederacy" per the mayor) following George Floyd's death & work had begun to ready the statue of Robert E. Lee for removal from state land on the avenue, two lawsuits were filed to prevent Lee's statue from being removed.
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves
No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...
Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?
You call it semantics, as a Civil War buff, I will refer to it as accuracy
While completely missing the point, so it's semantics.
[Edited on 6/11/2020 by porkchopbob]
forgive cross threading and repeat posting, but here is another take on "Confederates did not own slaves" theme...Slavery may have served its purpose in wrestling agriculture from raw wilderness on such a massive scale - possibly unachievable through more civilized means in that age. A lot of Africans died cutting out rice plantations from primordial swamp and cotton fields from choking jungle - but at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution that primitive and barbaric "peculiar institution" virtually guaranteed strife for all but the richest whites and the merchant class that served them.
As was mentioned earlier, it is the British who started the importation of Africans after Native Americans proved unsuitable for the elite white colonialists' purpose either by refusal, war, or death from the diseases brought by the colonists. Per Lukester's post, even some Englishmen tossed a slave trader's statue into the Bristol harbor over the weekend because they were fed up w/debate not action on removing these hated symbols.
Yeah, "ownership" is not the root of the issue, and arguing it is an attempt to excuse while missing the broader issue. Hardly any wealthy owners actually fought at all. It's the culture and profiteering from slavery that the Confederacy, its Generals and those who fought under them, represent. Not to say the Union was without racism (many northern states are still filled with prejudice) and I'm sure there are those who see only an old white man who owned slaves when they see the Jefferson Memorial or a statue of Julius Caesar.
I'm finding it fascinating watching the GOP trying to decide whether they are the protector of the Confederacy or the "Party of Lincoln," finally realizing that they can't be both.
It's interesting when I was growing up and a teen and young adult, the clearly racist politicians were Democrats. Richard Russell of Alabama was a horrible racist and close friend of President Johnson. Russell strongly opposed ending segregation and he and Johnson had a shouting match on the phone. A Senate office building in Washington continues to bear his name. George Wallace was a Democrat. Robert Byrd of West Virginia, close friend of Bill Clinton was a racist and once was in the KKK.
Most blacks in the 50's and 60's were Republicans because of Lincoln.
What I am curious about is the destruction of statues of Christopher Columbus. Christopher Columbus is too famous worldwide to erase. Here in America we have Washington, District of Columbia. Look up Columbia. Means Land of Columbus. Columbus, Ohio, Columbia, South Carolina, Columbus, Georgia, Columbus Circus in Manhattan. A province in Canada is British Columbia etc etc etc.
CC is far more famous than Robert E. Lee. Confederate flags and monuments are misplaced. They perhaps should be in museums. The Confederate States of America lost what they called " the war of northern aggression " and the fed's violation of states rights. But if a state is to be in the union, there are some things that membership requires and the free states and Lincoln found slavery to be brutal, immoral and unconstitutional. As President Lincoln said " We say all men are created equally and endowed with certain rights from their creator. But in practice not if you are a negro or a jew or a catholic ".
