Interesting theory and attempt at making it seem as though it has already been accepted in the annals of time as being the right thing to do.
Unk say: "Ana wana kava pipi". It took thousands of years for loin covering to be recognized as common sense.
"Common sense" or socially unacceptable?
Thought experiment: Given your resistance-based outlook, back in the mid-1800s when germ theory was developing, would you have been interested at all or would you have rejected it automatically?
Times change, personality types do not .
Haha! "resistance-based outlook"....
Would all people have worn face masks everywhere in the 1800's?
Would you have been part of the "drag population" laughing at handwashing in 1867? Surely you know yourself well enough to know which type of reaction you would have experienced in any era given your present mindset.
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so with no definitive proof that it is helping. I can not speak to the mores of what people believed in 1867 anymore than you can.
So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.
I don't care about the slowcoaches's positions. They can do whatever they want & accept the consequences to themselves & others. I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst.
So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.
I don't care about the slowcoaches's positions. They can do whatever they want & accept the consequences to themselves & others. I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst.
I am curious as to why you've labeled it as "Liberal shaming"?
You're asking me?
I was not.
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .
You're asking me?
I was not.
Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?
It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?
"Liberal shaming"?
I'm guessing this protester is almost out of smoke and not looking forward to resin hits.
One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.
Is that how you greet a member we haven't seen for 5 years?
One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.
Is that how you greet a member we haven't seen for 5 years?
Is that what a member who hasn't been here for five years posts upon his return?
OK, fine. Welcome back Bruce. My 90+ year old family members, affectionately referred to as "geezers", sure are glad about your return
Better?
Have you seen that person, driving in a car by themselves, wearing a mask?
Follow the money.
To all y'all, QUIT STARING AT ME.
I am sure it makes their day when you glare and stare in judgement of the sheeple at the red light stop.
Yep, that's what I was doing alright.....Glancing and noticing is now equated with...."Staring in Judgement".....
So cut the "persecuted minority" act. You are the majority.
In choosing to not wear a mask?...Whad'ya know about that!....LOL, I have never claimed to be part of a "persecuted minority" and just because you have applied a label, does not make it so. Just chuckling over the amount of people who've forgotten how to think for themselves...
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .
You're asking me?
I was not.
Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?
It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?
"Liberal shaming"?
Bill Maher, YouTube. Liberal shaming. You'll love it.
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .
You're asking me?
I was not.
Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?
It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?
"Liberal shaming"?
Bill Maher, YouTube. Liberal shaming. You'll love it.
Looked. I see fat shaming and people who are ashamed to be white, but no "Liberal shaming" videos
. . .chuckling over the amount of people who've forgotten how to think for themselves...
How do you know they are not thinking for themselves?
I don't. Just a guess based on the populace's current skill set at "follow the leader"
Just a guess based on the populace's current skill set at "follow the leader"
In a word - prejudice.
Your definition not mine and yes... I am getting used to your having to label everything.
Would all people have worn face masks everywhere in the 1800's?
Well, some doctors in Europe did, though styles have certainly changed.
To wrap up my feelings on the masks, if that is what we should do in order to start coming out of our shells and open businesses then I'm fine with that. All other issues and concerns noted.
Ohio is extending the stay at home order until the end of May. As businesses open, there will be exceptions for activity related to those businesses. Today we have medical facilities and offices, veterinary places and dentists opening. May 4th distribution centers, manufacturing and construction that may've been closed or halted can resume. Same with general office locations. May 12th retail can open. Exceptions will be allowed for those on top of the already allowed exceptions for essential workers and essential needs plus exercise allowance.
I'm fine with a slow approach to reopen businesses with the precautions that are being put into place. But at this point, what does stay home mean now anyway? They want to keep people from congregating in parks and playing sports with close physical contact...that's fine. Hospitals and long term care and prisons are going to restrict visitation regardless of a stay at home order. I feel like those things can, and are addressed on their own without this broad stay at home order all while less and less people are going to be staying at home this month as they open businesses.
It makes me think of a seat belt sign on the airplane. I heard a pilot describe it once like this - you have to take the seat belt sign off occasionally because if you leave it on too long people are going to ignore it and get up and move around with the sign on. So you take it off every now and then and then put it back on and people are more likely to follow it.
There's going to be so many exceptions in it now, really it's going to get where the exception is staying at home.
More and more people have started to tune Dewine out. I guess I'm falling into that camp now. You tell people to stay at home all while activity is going to be increasing in the state this month...really the stay at home order is going to apply to fewer and fewer people in the coming days and weeks. It's run it's course and essentially become meaningless.
A simple objective observation, no more, no less. Prejudice means to pre-judge. When you assume someone driving with a mask on is a sheeple not thinking for his or her self that is a pre-judgement.
Calling people sheep is bigotry.
[Edited on 5/1/2020 by BrerRabbit]
0
Here we go again, you with your need to label and help others understand what they really mean when they post things you disagree with. Maybe you can once again explain how California is really operating Concentration camps at the border?
Thanks in advance
It’s About Time - thank you Mr McConnell
“The Country Needs Sports”
“We’ve all missed that during the pandemic, and the sooner we can get at least some of our sports - and I think the one eligible to begin first would be baseball - it would be a great morale booster for the country & an indication that we’re going to begin to get back to normal”
I don’t see how anyone could disagree
We’ve done our part, now it’s time to have our lives back
It will be downright lunacy not to have hoop/puck seasons - have conceded no baseball, but if there’s been no change in this thing by say summer, the only change is to give normal life a go again
Sports is the way to start the process of opening up America again! 
[Edited on 5/1/2020 by Stephen]
"now it's time to have our lives back"
It's important that we don't negate everything we have done and every sacrifice people have made up to this point, or it was all for nothing. Everyone wants to be back, and I want to get on the road to recovery. We're going to walk before we run. A lot of people are going to throw caution to the wind, but most people I believe will be responsible. We have to trust people with some judgement. Not everyone is going to be careful, some people will be extra careful. We can't make everyone do the same thing. Like I said, we'll get what we get out of it. If more of us act appropriately than otherwise we can get through this and continue with further openings and relaxing. One step at a time.
My statement is as apolitical as I can make it: We're not ready. Georgia Governor Simp is pretty much forcing this on our state. Restaurateurs from Atlanta to Savannah are advising so.
I know everybody is in a hurry for our lives to get back to normal, but the measures that are in place (self-quarantine, 6' social distancing and (for now ... maybe a little longer) no congregating in public ARE WORKING! As bad as this sucks, I firmly believe we need another few weeks (at least) of this.
I predicted weeks ago - and have since been "agreed with" by Dr. Birx - we are going to experience a new spike that will likely cause the shutdown of stores and malls - and overload the livin' $hit out of "on-line" establishments - that will likely result in another economy crash due to THE LOSS OF CHRISTMAS/HOLIDAY RETAIL. You have no idea how much I'd love to be wrong on this.
"now it's time to have our lives back"
It's important that we don't negate everything we have done and every sacrifice people have made up to this point, or it was all for nothing. Everyone wants to be back, and I want to get on the road to recovery. We're going to walk before we run. A lot of people are going to throw caution to the wind, but most people I believe will be responsible. We have to trust people with some judgement. Not everyone is going to be careful, some people will be extra careful. We can't make everyone do the same thing. Like I said, we'll get what we get out of it. If more of us act appropriately than otherwise we can get through this and continue with further openings and relaxing. One step at a time.
+1 Well said Nebish. Agree with your mask take on your other recent post.
An ESPN analysis predicted that
“The sudden disappearance of sports will cost $12 billion in revenue and hundreds of thousands of jobs, an economic catastrophe that could more than double if the college & NFL schedules are shut down this fall”
& that’s just in sports - so that’s the other very upsetting part of the virus -
We’re walking w/eyes wide open into an abyss of economic disaster worse than the Great Depression
[Edited on 5/2/2020 by Stephen]
Just back from a beach drive-by.
Despite the signage on the causeway that reads (in English): BEACHES OPEN FOR EXERCISE ONLY. NO CHAIRS, COOLERS. TENTS OR TABLES ... the beach is packed with "tourons" doing these and other activities. A drive through the village (area with pier, restaurants, bars etc) revealed more tourons lined up tightly to enter establishments that are now open for business as per our Unstable Genius Governor.
I'd bet a testicle that most of these tourons are the very folks who were stating that this virus was nothing more than the flu several weeks ago.
I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.
Any takers? I've only got two testicles!
Just back from a beach drive-by.
Despite the signage on the causeway that reads (in English): BEACHES OPEN FOR EXERCISE ONLY. NO CHAIRS, COOLERS. TENTS OR TABLES ... the beach is packed with "tourons" doing these and other activities. A drive through the village (area with pier, restaurants, bars etc) revealed more tourons lined up tightly to enter establishments that are now open for business as per our Unstable Genius Governor.
I'd bet a testicle that most of these tourons are the very folks who were stating that this virus was nothing more than the flu several weeks ago.
I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.
Any takers? I've only got two testicles!
This shouldn't surprise anyone. These are the people that rank their "freedoms", economy, and health in that order. That's assuming they even think instead of just act or react. No doubt some of these will learn that a few minutes in the sun didn't reward them well if they contract Covid. One person in a crowd can do significant damage to many.
Have the GA numbers met the prez's 14 day guidelines?
It will be an interesting observation to see how the numbers play out in the next several weeks as more & more people come out. I hope the numbers drop, but would it surprise anyone if there is cause and effect of more cases and death? It's a hard price to pay. The good doctors say what they do for a reason. Trump and governors say what they do for a different reason.
I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.
Good luck with any lawsuit filed against any business where the core is "not enough steps were taken to protect them."..Dining out is a choice and diners should be well aware of the risks after 75 days of the media bombarding them with the death tolls.
All this hand wringing and fear about getting the virus, spreading the virus, keeping the country shut down, waiting for a cure, etc. will almost certainly be seen in hindsight as one of the stupidest reactions mankind has ever had to a threat. We've let fear overcome reason, and we over-reacted to something that is turning out to be no worse for the majority than an average seasonal flu. While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu. The difference this time is that our insane over-reaction by shutting down most of the world's economy will have more devastating impact to the lives and well being of far more people than the actual illness itself.
The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation
The tragedy of the COVID-19 pandemic appears to be entering the containment phase. Tens of thousands of Americans have died, and Americans are now desperate for sensible policymakers who have the courage to ignore the panic and rely on facts. Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function.
Five key facts are being ignored by those calling for continuing the near-total lockdown.
Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19.
The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies.
In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 10 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000.
Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.
Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding.
We can learn about hospital utilization from data from New York City, the hotbed of COVID-19 with more than 34,600 hospitalizations to date. For those under 18 years of age, hospitalization from the virus is 0.01 percent, or 11 per 100,000 people; for those 18 to 44 years old, hospitalization is 0.1 percent. Even for people ages 65 to 74, only 1.7 percent were hospitalized. Of 4,103 confirmed COVID-19 patients with symptoms bad enough to seek medical care, Dr. Leora Horwitz of NYU Medical Center concluded "age is far and away the strongest risk factor for hospitalization." Even early WHO reports noted that 80 percent of all cases were mild, and more recent studies show a far more widespread rate of infection and lower rate of serious illness. Half of all people testing positive for infection have no symptoms at all. The vast majority of younger, otherwise healthy people do not need significant medical care if they catch this infection.
Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem.
We know from decades of medical science that infection itself allows people to generate an immune response — antibodies — so that the infection is controlled throughout the population by “herd immunity.” Indeed, that is the main purpose of widespread immunization in other viral diseases — to assist with population immunity. In this virus, we know that medical care is not even necessary for the vast majority of people who are infected. It is so mild that half of infected people are asymptomatic, shown in early data from the Diamond Princess ship, and then in Iceland and Italy. That has been falsely portrayed as a problem requiring mass isolation. In fact, infected people without severe illness are the immediately available vehicle for establishing widespread immunity. By transmitting the virus to others in the low-risk group who then generate antibodies, they block the network of pathways toward the most vulnerable people, ultimately ending the threat. Extending whole-population isolation would directly prevent that widespread immunity from developing.
Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections.
Critical health care for millions of Americans is being ignored and people are dying to accommodate “potential” COVID-19 patients and for fear of spreading the disease. Most states and many hospitals abruptly stopped “nonessential” procedures and surgery. That prevented diagnoses of life-threatening diseases, like cancer screening, biopsies of tumors now undiscovered and potentially deadly brain aneurysms. Treatments, including emergency care, for the most serious illnesses were also missed. Cancer patients deferred chemotherapy. An estimated 80 percent of brain surgery cases were skipped. Acute stroke and heart attack patients missed their only chances for treatment, some dying and many now facing permanent disability.
Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures.
The overwhelming evidence all over the world consistently shows that a clearly defined group — older people and others with underlying conditions — is more likely to have a serious illness requiring hospitalization and more likely to die from COVID-19. Knowing that, it is a commonsense, achievable goal to target isolation policy to that group, including strictly monitoring those who interact with them. Nursing home residents, the highest risk, should be the most straightforward to systematically protect from infected people, given that they already live in confined places with highly restricted entry.
The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.
Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center.
All this hand wringing and fear about getting the virus, spreading the virus, keeping the country shut down, waiting for a cure, etc. will almost certainly be seen in hindsight as one of the stupidest reactions mankind has ever had to a threat. We've let fear overcome reason, and we over-reacted to something that is turning out to be no worse for the majority than an average seasonal flu. While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu. The difference this time is that our insane over-reaction by shutting down most of the world's economy will have more devastating impact to the lives and well being of far more people than the actual illness itself.
The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation
The tragedy of the COVID-19 pandemic appears to be entering the containment phase. Tens of thousands of Americans have died, and Americans are now desperate for sensible policymakers who have the courage to ignore the panic and rely on facts. Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function.
Five key facts are being ignored by those calling for continuing the near-total lockdown.
Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19.
The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies.
In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 10 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000.
Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.
Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding.
We can learn about hospital utilization from data from New York City, the hotbed of COVID-19 with more than 34,600 hospitalizations to date. For those under 18 years of age, hospitalization from the virus is 0.01 percent, or 11 per 100,000 people; for those 18 to 44 years old, hospitalization is 0.1 percent. Even for people ages 65 to 74, only 1.7 percent were hospitalized. Of 4,103 confirmed COVID-19 patients with symptoms bad enough to seek medical care, Dr. Leora Horwitz of NYU Medical Center concluded "age is far and away the strongest risk factor for hospitalization." Even early WHO reports noted that 80 percent of all cases were mild, and more recent studies show a far more widespread rate of infection and lower rate of serious illness. Half of all people testing positive for infection have no symptoms at all. The vast majority of younger, otherwise healthy people do not need significant medical care if they catch this infection.
Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem.
We know from decades of medical science that infection itself allows people to generate an immune response — antibodies — so that the infection is controlled throughout the population by “herd immunity.” Indeed, that is the main purpose of widespread immunization in other viral diseases — to assist with population immunity. In this virus, we know that medical care is not even necessary for the vast majority of people who are infected. It is so mild that half of infected people are asymptomatic, shown in early data from the Diamond Princess ship, and then in Iceland and Italy. That has been falsely portrayed as a problem requiring mass isolation. In fact, infected people without severe illness are the immediately available vehicle for establishing widespread immunity. By transmitting the virus to others in the low-risk group who then generate antibodies, they block the network of pathways toward the most vulnerable people, ultimately ending the threat. Extending whole-population isolation would directly prevent that widespread immunity from developing.
Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections.
Critical health care for millions of Americans is being ignored and people are dying to accommodate “potential” COVID-19 patients and for fear of spreading the disease. Most states and many hospitals abruptly stopped “nonessential” procedures and surgery. That prevented diagnoses of life-threatening diseases, like cancer screening, biopsies of tumors now undiscovered and potentially deadly brain aneurysms. Treatments, including emergency care, for the most serious illnesses were also missed. Cancer patients deferred chemotherapy. An estimated 80 percent of brain surgery cases were skipped. Acute stroke and heart attack patients missed their only chances for treatment, some dying and many now facing permanent disability.
Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures.
The overwhelming evidence all over the world consistently shows that a clearly defined group — older people and others with underlying conditions — is more likely to have a serious illness requiring hospitalization and more likely to die from COVID-19. Knowing that, it is a commonsense, achievable goal to target isolation policy to that group, including strictly monitoring those who interact with them. Nursing home residents, the highest risk, should be the most straightforward to systematically protect from infected people, given that they already live in confined places with highly restricted entry.
The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.
Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center.
Totally agree and I have been saying it for weeks. Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip. The other day the state of Maine had like 35 patients TOTAL with covid-19 in their hospitals yet their Governor extended much of their lockdown. I am stunned at the willing acceptance of Governor, Mayoral and health director edicts often with no constitutional or scientific basis and anecdotal stories about random cities in 1918 are not a scientific basis for such drastic measures. We turned a 79 year old scienstist into a reality star who can't pass up an interview all the while a 79 year old man who works 19 hours a day gets to tell everyone over the age of 60 they are in danger. Yet none of these measures protected our folks in nursing homes. Everyone wants to complain about Trump ( and I am no fan ) yet all the Governors and Mayors as well spend all their time telling all of us what an amazing job they and their teams are doing. It is all remarkable.
[Edited on 5/2/2020 by tbomike]
Have never fully understood the correlation of shutting down commerce and as a way to fight the virus
Aren’t we just making it twice as hard on ourselves? What benefit does a ruined economy have in stopping the spread?
Good read, & re the 1st paragraph, FDR’s words come to mind
“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself”
I say reopen everything Memorial Day wknd - people can still wear masks etc, they can just remove them when they go out to eat, cheer at a game etc, & do social distancing on their own etc
The 6 feet apart/self quarantining/stay at home approach hasn’t been effective - resuscitating/restarting the economy must now take equal priority w/finding a cure imo
