Okay, I am very rarely correct about anything. Ask my wife.
Back in January ... I was offering my $.02 to anybody who was willing to listen. Most were not. Probably due to my rarely being correct. What I advised then was - close up the shops, bars and restaurants - sacrifice (forfeit) the Spring Break business and possibly recover the much larger Summer business. This advice flew like a $hit balloon. Nobody saw any sense in my idea.
So now - a whole lotta people who are likely a whole lot smarter than me want to hurry up and reopen these establishments. Ready or not.
Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.
Once again, it appears you are describing temporary scenarios that in no way insinuate permanent change.
"While covid19 is rampant, I have been asked to stay at home..."Is this the new normal"? Or a temporary fix?
We are not in a temporary fix. We are in a stop-the-spread period in a pandemic.
May 1 is when re-opening is supposed to start to happen. No antibody test, vaccination, or treatment planned to roll out by then. Estimates for those are anywhere from 2 months to 2 years or beyond. There's no guarantee that anything will be identified, approved, & made widely available so re-opening guidelines are all based on anyone can transmit the COVID19 virus to others.
We live in the present. Even w/stimulus packages & other aid, there are businesses & industries that will close because they simply can't hang on until the fix arrives. There are certain businesses where tele-working will replace life in the cubicle. We will not return to life as it was in summer 2019. We'll return to some new iteration.
You asked for examples. I gave examples of what industry leaders - some of whom are informal advisers to Trump on re-opening - are saying. Can't do more than that.
Once again, it appears you are describing temporary scenarios that in no way insinuate permanent change.
"While covid19 is rampant, I have been asked to stay at home..."Is this the new normal"? Or a temporary fix?We are not in a temporary fix. We are in a stop-the-spread period in a pandemic.
And when the spread is stopped and the virus contained?
You asked for examples. I gave examples
Thanks and I disagree with your conclusions
You did provide good examples cyclone.
And BigV, I agree, there is no one-size fits all approach. A lot of people think there should be and a lot of others think there should not be. So what are we going to do? I am thankful that the mayors and governors close to their constituents are responsible for the decisions. Some might make good decisions and some might make bad decisions, but this is what we have. NY and NYC will do what is right for them and they will reap the benefit or sacrifice of that, as will other states.
And to Rusty's point, I just think we need a little more time. I don't want to appear like I'm on both sides of this. We need some economic activity, we need some mental relief to be able to get out and do stuff. But we have come this far. By and large, state to state, cases are not going down yet, or down enough or sustained trajectory. A little more time hopefully will get us further away from the hump and then we'll have to see how it goes. We can look to Europe and other places for examples as they go through this. We already saw some places in Asia try. These places were ahead of us with their infection, so they should try their relaxing and reopening before we do. And let's learn from what happens there, dos and don'ts.
I think we are on the cusp of trying this, but some people are pushing it too soon. And the President feeds it. The President should say and do a lot of things he doesn't. But on this, we have a 30 days to stop the spread that his administration put forth. OK. And his administration put forth opening guidelines. OK. I actually think the opening guidelines are pretty responsible, clearly some smart people inputted greatly on it. It might actually make it impossible to get through the gates, technically with the testing open to interpretation, but that is the map for states to try and follow. It was well done. Some states will have their own ideas. But the President is undermining everything. The 30 days to stop the spread runs until April 30th. He should say, we need to stay the course, we are winning, it's not over. Stick it out a little longer and when your states feel they can meet the criteria of relaxing restrictions, we will do so slowly and smartly, but if the 30 days to slow the spread is still in place, don't tell people to start opening now. He encouraging people to "free" themselves now, still with over a week to go in his own plan to slow the spread. He's a joke and he is making things worse right now. We have to start to try and relax the restrictions, but you have to follow some kind of plan and data as to when to do that...and some people aren't with these protests at the encouragement of the President.
[Edited on 4/20/2020 by nebish]
Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.
Agree w/you, but not to give the virus a little more time. Time is needed for the scientific/medical community to invent antibody testing, a vaccine, & treatments. If businesses are re-opened immediately w/o those things & everyone rushes out to that re-opening, we'll be right back where we were.
Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.
Agree w/you, but not to give the virus a little more time. Time is needed for the scientific/medical community to invent antibody testing, a vaccine, & treatments. If businesses are re-opened immediately w/o those things & everyone rushes out to that re-opening, we'll be right back where we were.
I agree, there is no one-size fits all approach
Agreed, there is not. But I for one am growing weary of the newscasts making NYC the headquarters of this extremely difficult time for everyone in this country. Governor Cuomo, does not speak for this nation, he has the interests of the people of New York at stake, period. Perhaps N.Y. should seal off its borders while the rest of the Country figures out what is the best way to get up and moving again.
As falls New York, so falls the USA
If you live in NYC, I understand how you might choose to believe that.
I have not heard Andrew Cuomo presume to speak for anyone other than NY or dictate what anyone outside of NY does.
NYC gets a lot of coverage because, well it’s NYC. NY also has the most cases and deaths. That’s going to make the news.
Cuomo gets a lot of coverage because he’s been widely lauded for providing very transparent, timely, fact-based updates on the situation in NY in general.
You can always change the channel... 😉
You did provide good examples cyclone.
I think we are on the cusp of trying this, but some people are pushing it too soon. And the President feeds it. The President should say and do a lot of things he doesn't. But on this, we have a 30 days to stop the spread that his administration put forth. OK. And his administration put forth opening guidelines. OK. I actually think the opening guidelines are pretty responsible, clearly some smart people inputted greatly on it. It might actually make it impossible to get through the gates, technically with the testing open to interpretation, but that is the map for states to try and follow. It was well done. Some states will have their own ideas.
But the President is undermining everything. The 30 days to stop the spread runs until April 30th. He should say, we need to stay the course, we are winning, it's not over. Stick it out a little longer and when your states feel they can meet the criteria of relaxing restrictions, we will do so slowly and smartly, but if the 30 days to slow the spread is still in place, don't tell people to start opening now. He encouraging people to "free" themselves now, still with over a week to go in his own plan to slow the spread. He's a joke and he is making things worse right now. We have to start to try and relax the restrictions, but you have to follow some kind of plan and data as to when to do that...and some people aren't with these protests at the encouragement of the President.
The examples aren't mine. I just repeated what business/industry leaders are saying about re-opening when there's no prevention or cure in sight.
I agree w/you. From what I've read, we've learned 3 things about COVID-19 since it arrived: 1) it affects people of all ages so everyone is vulnerable, 2) people can have the virus more than once, & 3) people can transmit the virus before they have symptoms. None of that sounds like we should rush to re-open w/o precautions.
We do have other countries ahead of us & we are learning what does/doesn't work from them.
There's no one size fits all re-open. A good leader would say everything you suggested. I've been saying for weeks that the prez's daily briefings shouldn't be televised in full because he lies, touts unproven cures, & mocks governors who are proceding at the pace models in their states show. He contradicts himself, takes valuable time from Drs. Fauci & Birx & even Pence to correct him, & generally confuses people. Journalism isn't just turning the camera on; journalism is filming, editing, & conveying information the public needs to know. Televise the experts not the political bluster.
One of the ironic things about his LIBERATE VIRGINIA! tweet is that Virginia is under an order through June 10 - probably one of the longest in the country - in part because its northern cities are DC commuting suburbs. More importantly, the governor is a PHYSICIAN who has repeatedly said that science not politics will dictate when/how to re-open. Granted, the governor is a Democrat, but he's also someone who knows more about medicine & science than Trump. Ergo, the stable genius must belittle him.
One of the ironic things about his LIBERATE VIRGINIA! tweet is that Virginia is under an order through June 10 - probably one of the longest in the country - in part because its northern cities are DC commuting suburbs. More importantly, the governor is a PHYSICIAN who has repeatedly said that science not politics will dictate when/how to re-open. Granted, the governor is a Democrat, but he's also someone who knows more about medicine & science than Trump. Ergo, the stable genius must belittle him.
Yeah but , there needs to be data to guide decision making. No doubt. There needs to be a clear plan in place. No doubt. Responsible leadership. Of course. But if you totally rely on the science it could be like NY saying they needed 140,000 hospital beds and they needed 30,000 ventilators at minimum. Science can be wrong, you can be too reliant on it to a detriment.
Everything changes, evolves day to day. It all needs weighed and evaluated and assumptions, expectations all need evaluated with risks and rewards. Solely relying on the science isn't enough. Solely relying on economics isn't enough. Strike the balance. We'll have some Democrat governors that I think will be playing politics in the sense they are reluctant to relax and open because Trump is pushing for it and their base wants to be more cautious. Just like we have some Republican governors are going too soon because Trump and their base wants them to. Politics is almost impossible to keep out of everything now.
I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state. They have to figure it out. It's just that solely relying on the science can be misguided as well.
I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state.
X2
Georgia, Tennessee announce plans to reopen some businesses, wind down coronavirus stay-at-home orders
Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp said certain businesses including restaurants, gyms and hair salons can reopen beginning this Friday. Meanwhile, Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee confirmed his state's stay-at-home order, previously extended to April 30, will end that day.
My gut tells me that this is too soon, especially in Georgia where they still have a significant number of new cases and deaths. But, it should be an interesting experiment for the other states to see what happen in a couple weeks after the reopening. If there isn't a big second wave, well then maybe some other states can think of reopening sooner than expected. If the number of new cases jump, well we will know what not to do. As I go to a music festival in Georgia ever September, I hope they can reopen things earlier than later and I can save my trip. If there is a big setback, then my trip will be doomed.
I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state. They have to figure it out. It's just that solely relying on the science can be misguided as well.
Clarification: The Virginia governor didn't say he was relying solely on science. He said in the choice between politics & science, science is the determining factor. I have family there & follow his daily briefings that present models similar to those Fauci/Birx use on a county by county basis in the state. It's updated daily. There are daily reports of available resources, economic indicators, & other pertinent data to decision-making. Politics are less important to Virginia governors as they have a 4 yr term limit.
Kentucky sees highest spike in coronavirus cases after lockdown protests
https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/kentucky-sees-highest-spike-in-coronavirus-cases-after-protests/
Kentucky experienced its highest single-day spike in coronavirus cases after protests broke out in the state to lift lockdowns, according to reports.
Gov. Andy Beshear announced there were 273 new cases Sunday, bringing the total to 2,960, news station WCPO reported.
“We are still in the midst of this fight against a deadly and highly contagious virus,” Beshear said. “Let’s make sure, as much as we’re looking at those benchmarks and we’re looking at the future, that we are acting in the present and we are doing the things that it takes to protect one another.”
The Bluegrass State is among the regions that have seen demonstrators take to the streets last week to call for the end of lockdown restrictions.
Around 100 protesters gathered Wednesday on the lawn of the Capitol building in Frankfort during Democrat Beshear’s coronavirus briefing, shouting “Open up Kentucky!” and “King Beshear,” the Lexington Herald-Leader reported.
The same group returned Friday to the Capitol building, where they were met by barricades, the newspaper reported.
Instead, they circled the area in cars for a drive-through protest of Beshear’s coronavirus restrictions, the report said.
It’s unclear whether the protests had any impact on the surge of deaths reported Sunday in the state.
Beshear said at least 13 percent of cases reported in Kentucky have been nursing home residents.
Of the 273 new cases, there were 33 patients who were residents of nursing homes and eight more who were staffers, he said.
Beshear insisted Sunday he wouldn’t budge yet on easing lockdown restrictions despite the calls from protesters, according to the newspaper.
“We’re not in the 14 days of decreasing under the White House guidelines to do certain things,” Beshear said.
Modify message
[Edited on 4/21/2020 by stormyrider]
Things are getting weird. A health crisis and building civil unrest.
More stories of businesses in Ohio making plans to reopen regardless of what Dewine's plans are on May 1.
The great re-open experiment has begun in some southern states:
SC allows dept stores & retailers who sell furniture, books, music, flowers, clothing/accessories, & sporting goods to open today at 20% capacity or 5 people/1,000 sf. Beaches will also open today at noon.
The questions are how many retailers will open, how many people will shop, who will police the capacity cap, & will there be a spike in cases in 14 days?
GA will allow tattoo parlors, hair, nail, & massage salons, bowling alleys, & gyms to re-open Friday with restaurants & movie theatres re-opening Monday. The governor expects to see a spike in cases but the state is "better prepared to handle it."
Questions here are how is GA & its front line workers "better prepared" given that there's no antibody test, vaccine, or treatment? The bigger question is how many Georgians are going to rush out to get a tattoo? Probably a lot of people will be rushing out to hair & nail salons. Even so, how many business owners are going to open w/o any change in preparation or treatment of the virus. The governor seems to think the risk of increased cases & health risks to medical staffs are worth the political capital he's making w/Trump.
These openings go against the recommendations of Fauci/Birx & Trump's official position. Trump's made no secret that he wants businesses open. Are these the kinds of businesses that are going to jump start the economy at the risk of lives? It's one thing for people to take the risk; it's another to expect medical workers to take that risk w/them.
It's one thing for people to take the risk; it's another to expect medical workers to take that risk w/them
thank you
not to mention the other innocent people that the risk takers may expose
The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.
Things are getting weird. A health crisis and building civil unrest.
Never say the mass media hasn't done its part...
This would have never played out the way it has were this April 2021 instead of April 2020.
The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.
I saw interviews with 3 mayors of GA - Atlanta & I believe the other 2 were Augusta & Albany? None said that the gov of GA had consulted with them on this. None were in favor of this.
I also saw the graphic of Covid cases, and the chart was stil rising, and that only takes into account the small % of tests consducted to population. I don't believe the stats even meet Trump's guidlines. The gov opens up some of the most least social distancing businesses. So politics and economics first with health somewhere a distant third on the priority chart. Glad Gov Kemp is not the gov of my state.
The gov is going to either look like a pathway leader or an utter fool. Time will tell.
Yeah, I don't understand the choices for businesses either. Seems like small businesses and shops that don't service a ton of customers at a time should come first, especially businesses where customers would not touch all of the products while browsing. Things like craft stores, furniture stores, game stores, antique shops, etc. But movie theaters? They should be among the last businesses to reopen.
South Carolina is trending down. Although I do not think anyone has yet to meet the full 14 day threshold. But those are guidelines, maybe some Governors will want more evidence than 2 weeks, obviously some Governors are going with less.
As has been mentioned, it really comes down to the medical capacity these states and communities within the states have. Nobody wants to willingly create more workload for health care workers and facilities, but it always comes back to what is acceptable risk? If we keep a stay at home order longer and then open up gradually, cases are going to go down and then they will rebound some when they open up. Or...they can open up gradually now rather than staying at home so the cases won't experience a drop, but maybe will stay steady instead of going down and coming back up? Maybe it's the same net result?
It's not just the Republican Governors now either.
Colorado (Polis, D) on April 27 is going to allow tattoo parlors, hair salons, one-on-one real estate home showings (no open houses), dental procedures as well as all retail may open for curbside pick-up and then allow in store retail May 1. And they are allowing child care to start back up April 27th. Naturally there are going to be certain protocols and restrictions, but these are big steps when there isn't evidence that now is the time to do it.
Colorado does not meet the criteria either:
Polis is giving his counties the ability to be more open or more restrictive as they see fit. It is going to spread, if infections reach a certain point, restrictions will have to be implemented again. How many will comply at that point?
“Now it enters the time of individual responsibility and choices,” he said. “And I trust the people of Colorado to make good choices.”
I saw interviews with 3 mayors of GA - Atlanta & I believe the other 2 were Augusta & Albany? None said that the gov of GA had consulted with them on this. None were in favor of this.
And they're speaking out urging residents to ignore re-openings because it goes against "logic" & public health expert policies. Business owners themselves are refusing to re-open, especially in Atlanta where restaurant owners cite the health & safety of their staffs & patrons as a primary reason for not re-opening. Outlets of national chains of restaurants & gyms aren't re-opening. Kemp can allow businesses to re-open to give a false sense of economic resurrection but he can't force to them do so.
Never had a clue how critical and important Bowling Alleys, Massage Parlors and Tatoo Parlors to some of our Southern States?.............get em open!!!........I will take a rain check........joe
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.
Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.
In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.
[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]
As of today Georgia has 19,398 KNOWN cases, 774 deaths.
Without massive testing the real numbers of infections are unknown and they can infect others. Florida is now up to 27,058 and opening those beaches will raise that number.
People need to be patient to be safe.
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.
Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.
In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.
[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]
Yes and no maybe! Colorado while in the continental us seems to me like BFE? I have been to Georgia? If indeed the case, then IMO the Dem Gov is mistaken and possibly weak kneed, ignorant etc, much like the Georgia Gov? .......Peace.......joe
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.
In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.
You pointed out the difference & it has nothing to do w/politics - GA isn't allowing counties/local leadership to make decisions based on pertinent data whereas CO is.
Data shows that African-Americans have been hit harder by COVID-19 than any other ethnicity & the mayor of Atlanta pointed to that as one reason she's concerned about re-opening there. Atlanta is more than 50% black according to 2020 census data (GA is 35% black) whereas CO is 4% black.
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.
Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.
In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.
[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]
Yes and no maybe! Colorado while in the continental us seems to me like BFE? I have been to Georgia? If indeed the case, then IMO the Dem Gov is mistaken and possibly weak kneed, ignorant etc, much like the Georgia Gov? .......Peace.......joe
Some rural areas of Colorado got extremely strict with their orders due to their lack of ICU beds and medical capacity to handle any kind of surge. When I say strict, I mean, like if you drove into a neighboring county and parked at a trailhead to cross country ski, if you did that in San Juan county, your car could be towed. And many mountain communities implemented "locals only" policy - like in Gunnison County non-residents were told to leave! Like get out, we don't care if you own property here, leave. So this is important context to understand the state has taken this very seriously, up til now. Colorado does not have better testing ability than anywhere else. And Colorado does not have 14 days of declining cases either. And yet they are relaxing. Importantly, the Governor does give local areas the ability to tailor their own restrictions as necessary, which is very good. But here, Colorado is not being led by science. It isn't just Republicans that are "rushing to open", granted, there are more of them and more Democrat Governors are in the wait-it-out cautious approach. Even though NY has opened golf courses and marinas. My Mom is in Florida. Their golf courses were open "with restrictions" to. Restrictions like 1 golfer per cart. Great and guess what, when they get out to actually golf it's a group of people bunched together like nothing is wrong. Will NY golfers be any different?
Here was my Colorado source by the way:
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/04/20/colorado-coronavirus-covid-stay-at-home-order-ends/
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/colorado-is-planning-to-reopen-even-without-widespread-testing-which-experts-stressed-is-necessary
Colorado is taking "calculated risk". At some point we are all going to have to do it. Right? I want it, I just worry that some are moving it too soon. There's no way to control it nationally. Governors are going to do what they want. And people within those states are going to do what they want. All we can hope is that people and businesses take the appropriate precautions. Some will. Some won't. We'll get what we get out of it.
[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]
