Tomorrow, Friday 1-8-21
CIA - Gina Haspell reportedly will resign.
Elaine Chou - Mitch McConnell's wife, resigned from her Transportation position.
All the staff will resign before 1-20-21 so that Biden can bring in his own team.
Biden wants Merrick Garland for Attorney General. I think he's a good choice.
Rats jump from a sinking ship ... but they're still rats.
Rats jump from a sinking ship ... but they're still rats.
And they wait to within the "end of the line". Wow...so impressive with their new found sense of & respect for ethics & honesty. It's not like these people haven't seen Trump in action and an entire lauundry list of justifiable reasons for anyone with self respect to have resigned a long tine ago. Pick any one of Trump's actions over the last four years, and that alone would have provided an offramp with anyone with self respect.
You are right. "They're still rats"
@martind28 They're just tryin' to get that last 2 weeks paycheck before they jump ship! Dishonor among liars, thieves and cheats! I think Dylan said it best, "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings ..." Maybe change "patriotism" to "greed-based loyalty".
I'm not directly knowledgeable of admin & WH supt staff HR policies, but I suspect they have provisions for accumulated leave. Assuming this is the case, I suspect most of these staff will walk out with full paychecks and probably paid for leave not used. That is how many gov't entities work.
Some - like the WH Counsel - claim to want to resign but are staying to mind Trump. Mind Trump. That a POTUS needs minders like the tantrum-prone child playing w/matches he is should be sufficient to invoke the 25th Amendment.
Of course, w/cabinet members fleeing, it would be hard to get a majority to vote in favor of it. They're side-stepping the issue by leaving. STILL, no one will take a stand.
Some - like the WH Counsel - claim to want to resign but are staying to mind Trump. Mind Trump. That a POTUS needs minders like the tantrum-prone child playing w/matches he is should be sufficient to invoke the 25th Amendment.
Of course, w/cabinet members fleeing, it would be hard to get a majority to vote in favor of it. They're side-stepping the issue by leaving. STILL, no one will take a stand.
Some - like the WH Counsel - claim to want to resign but are staying to mind Trump. Mind Trump. That a POTUS needs minders like the tantrum-prone child playing w/matches he is should be sufficient to invoke the 25th Amendment.
Of course, w/cabinet members fleeing, it would be hard to get a majority to vote in favor of it. They're side-stepping the issue by leaving. STILL, no one will take a stand.
25th will all likely not happen - little time, doubtful Cabinet will go along, and doubtful Pence would take this on.
Impeachment - GOP Senators will never go along. Also time constraints.
Best option is the calendar.
No, neither will happen, but there's still the option of resignation I mentioned before. Today, the WSJ called for him to resign.
In Trump's mind, he could just walk away from all those "enemies" & let Pence go through the motions of the transition to Biden. I don't see him being gracious on 1/20. Pence could also pardon him sickening as that is for what he did.
Also, who knows what his gangs have planned for the coming days & Inauguration Day. I doubt very few of them have seen the light that they were lied to & they believed the lies because of their ignorance of basic civics. The rest of them - the white supremacists - can still use theft of the election & Pence's betrayal as cover. Presumably, Pence would accept intelligence agency info from SM to thwart such plans.
Cyclone,
Maybe you can clarify this and correct me if I’m wrong, but one thing to keep in mind regarding the 25th Amendment is that once Pence and the Cabinet invoke it and then send it to Congress, Trump loses his official capacity to act as President.
That is until Congress either approves and supports the invocation thereby removing him, or denies it, and returns him to his role as president....In other words, Trump’s hands could be tied so to speak until Biden takes office without completion of the Article 25 process. Am I correct on this anyone?
Some - like the WH Counsel - claim to want to resign but are staying to mind Trump. Mind Trump. That a POTUS needs minders like the tantrum-prone child playing w/matches he is should be sufficient to invoke the 25th Amendment.
Of course, w/cabinet members fleeing, it would be hard to get a majority to vote in favor of it. They're side-stepping the issue by leaving. STILL, no one will take a stand.
I was being just a tad snarky and facetious - but only a tad! Everyday I try to wrap my head around the idea or notion of a President even needing to be considered pardoned - of anything! I guess we don't ask or require much of our statesmen these days.
Congress has no role unless Trump objects. It's Pence & a majority of the shrinking cabinet.
If Trump objects, he sends a letter to Congress who has 4 days to respond & requires 2/3 of both houses to affirm it (unlikely even now).
The section has never been used. In the past, it's the earlier section that have transferred power to the VP while the P was under anesthesia.
We don't exactly have too many statesmen in the executive or legislative branches these days, but one wouldn't expect even an average person to think storming & looting the Capitol while Congress was going about their business was acceptable behavior. Getting the nod well in advance from the president - calling on the Proud Boys to stand by & others to come to DC on 1/6 - doesn't excuse it.
There seems to be agreement that Trump incited the attack on another branch of government. I don't think there should be a pardon for that, especially when 4 or 5 people, including a Capitol policeman, was killed.
Since Trump announced his plans not to attend the Inauguration, he may be leaning towards resignation. It's the best face-saving option for an egoist like him. Turn his back on the whole mess & walk away.
Since Trump announced his plans not to attend the Inauguration, he may be leaning towards resignation. It's the best face-saving option for an egoist like him. Turn his back on the whole mess & walk away.
If Trump does that, then Pence will pardon him. Didn't Ford pardon Nixon? Compared to Trump, Nixon is a choir boy.
It would be fascinating to be a fly on the wall to see what advice his attorneys and advisors are giving him. Between his strong arm tactics with SOS in Georgia and his terrorist activities leading up to the attempted coup, one would think there's ample cause to go after him. No doubt there are plenety of other potential illegalities.
I might be wrong, but I think his ego is too big for him to resign. But he may prove me wrong.
What a cluster f Trump is and has perpetrated on this country in just 4 years. These last 2 months of Trump remind me of General Sherman's march from Atlanta to Savannah and perpetrating a scored earth policy. The difference is Trump has done this to the entire USA and our democracy.
This will make me sound like a small minded and backwards thinking hillbilly (coastal rat?) - but since impeachment and/or removal from office seems so remote - and that I doubt he'll ever really serve any time in any facility that doesn't have air conditioning, 166 channels of hi-def and an 18 hole Jack Nicklaus-designed golf course- I'd just like to see somebody kick his a$$! I don't mean one of those "celebrities in 16 oz gloves" events like they use to have on TV from time to time. I mean somebody just mopping an alley with his big fat @ss. There! I said it! I don't feel nearly as bad about it as I thought I would! 😉
Right. I said that in a previous post about resignation. It's a win/win for his ego.
He'll spin it that his enemies, election-stealers, or whatever else he conjures up aren't worth his time & he'll walk away. He's done it before when he doesn't get what he wants. He's turning his back on something not worthy of him AND gets pardoned by Pence.
IMO, that's why Pence is stalling on the 25th; he's expecting a resignation & pardon negotiation.
The thing about Pence is he’s already done with the Trump cult for defying dear leader and actually doing what the Constitution required of him Wednesday. He’s now excommunicated from Trump world. So be an even bigger hero and maybe have a political future by NOT pardoning Trump.
It seems to me even a pardon will not get him a mulligan and an invite back into the cult. So do what’s right, Mike, and allow the scales of justice to finally make Trump accountable. If for no other reason than to discourage similar behavior from happening in future elections.
Pence was backed into a corner. Nowhere to go. He did his job in the end, and he doesn't get ata boys for that. Like Lindsey, Ted, and many others, Pence supported Trump & his "great leadership" over the years in spite of everything that transpired. Hopefully Pence is finished in politics along with Trump. Pence's values on multiple fronts are questionable.
The Republicans are like a landlord who had a very, very bad tenant in a 4 year lease that they could not get out of. One who threw incredibly loud and raucous parties and did substantial physical damage to the building and property. They're going to have to gut down to the studs and bones and rebuild completely. I don't think he'll be getting his deposit back.
Since Trump announced his plans not to attend the Inauguration, he may be leaning towards resignation. It's the best face-saving option for an egoist like him. Turn his back on the whole mess & walk away.
He will never resign. I honestly think he still wants to run again in 4 years and thinks he will win. Although I think they should invoke the 25th Ammendment, they won't. And although I think he should be impeached, there isn't enough time and probably isn't worth throwing gasoline on the fire.
I think the best course of action is to wait for the 20th, and then enjoy seeing Trump indicted by NY on the 21st.
You mean Trump is done w/him. There was absolutely nothing Pence could've done - had he been inclined - nothing. He was a master of ceremonies over a final vote count that is supposed to be a ritual in our democracy. Nothing would change the outcome of the election.
The value of being associated w/Trump may be declining. IMO "Art of the Deal" Trump is going to try to negotiate a resignation for a pardon. If not, he'll stay through his term, potentially wreak havoc, & self-pardon before leaving office.
You mean Trump is done w/him. There was absolutely nothing Pence could've done - had he been inclined - nothing. He was a master of ceremonies over a final vote count that is supposed to be a ritual in our democracy. Nothing would change the outcome of the election.
The value of being associated w/Trump may be declining. IMO "Art of the Deal" Trump is going to try to negotiate a resignation for a pardon. If not, he'll stay through his term, potentially wreak havoc, & self-pardon before leaving office.
And if he does, where does this whole "self pardon" thing go? I believe I've read it's never been tested???? But we've never been tested either prior to a white nationalist & terrorist occupying the WH.
How does this all play out? Is it up to the new AG & DOJ to pursue. I just don't know the protocol. Am not familiar with this entire thing / process.
I just hope either at federal, state, or local level that Trump is held accountable in a meaningful way. I realize that the pardon route doesn't protect him at state & local levels.
A lot to ponder with self pardon.
Wall Street Journal reported a half hour ago the Democrats are filing Impeachment Articles on Monday despite the fact that they are in recess till after the Inauguration. Pelosi wants them to reconvene.
Well, he either self-pardons or steps aside long enough for Pence to pardon him because Biden certainly isn't going to. You're right; it's never been done before, but Nixon's lawyers concluded he could self-pardon. Legal scholars disagree but it essentially comes down to whether "grant" in the power to grant pardons means grantor/grantee be 2 separate people - the kind of legal argument Scalia-types love.
It would be raised should he be charged w/a fed crime for inciting this act or sedition or something similar. I don't know how other jurisdictions could charge him unless, for example, his rally on the streets of DC would be considered a local DC matter. He's been talking about the election being stolen from him & the opportunity for "the people" to stop it on 1/6 since the election - he may have said something inciting in another state where he could be charged.
The easiest way for him to be pardoned would be exactly as Nixon did - resign on the condition that Ford pardon him ASAP.
Or, a prosecutor w/cojones could ignore the DOJ memo that states a sitting president can't be indicted because it is just that - an internal memo not law - & indict him tonight.
I agree w/you. This is so antithetical to democracy that he should be held accountable for the first time in his life.
I just watched an interview with George Conway, Republican and co-founder of the Lincoln Project, regarding Article 25 and a second potential impeachment. He made clear a couple things.
With regard to Article 25, if it’s invoked by Pence and a majority of the Cabinet, the President immediately loses authority for four days. If after those four days the president disagrees and objects, his formal appeal is sent to the Congress which has up to 21 days to rule on his appeal.
So, in essence the President could be essentially powerless until January 20th and the end of his term should Pence, the Cabinet, and Congress cooperate to make it happen. I’m not saying they will, but Article 25 an give them a way to ham string Trumps until his term ends.
Also, an interesting thing about a second impeachment is that the Senate could take up the vote to impeach after Trump leaves office and when a new Dem. controlled Senate is seated. Obviously the numbers would then be slightly more encouraging that the Senate could vote to impeach. If they did so, Trump having now been impeached even after leaving office, is now never able to hold federal office ever again...That means no Trump 2024 run for President. An idea some Republicans might truly support and get behind for selfish reasons and to save the party...Thoughts?
He loses power immediately, but I guarantee Trump has a letter in opposition to the 25th Amendment drafted & ready to be sent to Congress should Pence/Cabinet act. He can send it 5 minutes afterward; he doesn't have to wait 4 days. Its Pence/Cabinet who have 4 days to notify Congress again that he's unfit if Trump objects. Except for tweeting & watching TV, Trump has spent the week w/lawyers. Pence isn't going to act. His big defiance of Trump was actually doing his job of presiding over a vote count.
Pelosi delayed sending Impeachment #1 to the Senate because McConnell was screwing w/the rules re witnesses. Her stated reason for Impeachment #2 is to get Trump out & away from the nuclear codes. If she waits until the dems control the Senate, that will be moot. The sanction of prohibition from holding federal office does help Republicans who have mid-terms or contemplating a 2024 run because it removes Trump from the equation. Delay hurts Dems by pushing back Biden confirmations & starts off his administration dealing w/Trump detritus - not a good look.
No doubt Trump would immediately appeal the 25th process but it still can leave him powerless for a number of days if the Congress has any balls. It seems to me it’s an out for everyone accept Trump, especially those Republicans who need the political cover to stand up to him.
As far as impeachment procedures by the Senate after Trump leaves, I think more and more citizens understand that there has to be a price paid by Trump for his actions. If for no other reason than sending a clear message to others in the future that there are consequences.
Back look or not, I have no doubt some Republicans would jump on board a bi-partisan effort to impeach Trump simply to get rid of a 2024 Trump run..
There are no real options. Pence isn't going to act once much less twice so Trump would get his powers back w/time still left in office. Impeachment can be done immediately & the idea of getting Trump out of the way of midterms/2024 has appeal to the Republicans NOW. Would it lead to a 2/3 vote to remove him from office ASAP? Doubtful, but Pelosi should try now.
I disagree that citizens are going to "understand" the need for Trump to be held accountable by Congress or Pence after he's out of office. This man had 70mm votes from people who'll see it as persecution after he's left office. Hawley has doubled down on his stance. Calls for violence before 1/20 are escalating according to those who monitor such things. I don't know what "others" would need a message to understand that inciting violence to overthrow another branch of government is a crime. Trump is a singular madman. He's the kind of man the founders had in mind 250 years ago, but no one has ever come close to turning democracy into an autocracy until Trump.
I absolutely agree that Trump needs to be held accountable. Five people are dead. To me, as I said before, a prosecutor w/cojones would've arrested him during the riots - DOJ memo re no indictment of a sitting president or not. It's not law; it's an internal memo. A memo.
Pelosi's fears are real. He's talked about martial law & nuking Iran. The military can refuse to carry out an illegal order, but is an order from a sitting president illegal? His army of thugs have violent plans. He doesn't need twitter to talk to them.
I think we agree he needs to go before the end of his term. My position has always been for every illegal act he's done is that DOJ memo shouldn't stop an indictment/arrest. Waiting for a GOP Senate or a sycophant VP to act is dreaming.
