How courageous of the Republican Senators....Of course they’ll show their weak, self-serving selves when the vote really matters in a few days....Bunch of cowards that’ll do whatever necessary to hold onto power and the republic be damned!
How any senator - one of the linchpins of American democracy - can vote that there is no incitement proves you are correct. The prosecution case is leading them by the hand w/audio & video using simple words in chronological order from pre-election claims that if he lost, it would be due to fraud to telling his supporters to stop the count when he lost to ultimately "stop the steal" just feet away from the Capitol.
These senators are definitely saying the republic be damned because there will be presidents who will use Trump's blueprint to stay in power despite the vote of the people.
Somehow we need to make the actions of Trump, and any future president, illegal and grounds for removal and criminal prosecution....Outside of impeachment, that is. How we do so is beyond my limited knowledge...
Laws actually passed by Congress and possibly upheld by the SCOTUS? Something that negates the Justice Dept. interpretation that a sitting president can’t be indicted? A constitutional amendment? Thoughts cyclone and others?
Somehow we need to make the actions of Trump, and any future president, illegal and grounds for removal and criminal prosecution....Outside of impeachment, that is. How we do so is beyond my limited knowledge...
Laws actually passed by Congress and possibly upheld by the SCOTUS? Something that negates the Justice Dept. interpretation that a sitting president can’t be indicted? A constitutional amendment? Thoughts cyclone and others?
One thing that struck me was the precise laying out of how successfully public officials denied Trump's preposterous imaginary claim that he'd won the election - from local election boards, every single state senior election official, state courts, federal courts, state governors, the Electoral College, the DOJ & Barr, and finally, Pence.
Some of them, along w/their families, received death threats. GA Secretary of State Raffensberger wasn't the only one to be publicly excoriated by Trump. Every single avenue to overturn a legal election was thwarted by people who did their job whether they agreed w/the results or not. Every single entity upheld the constitution. The holdouts are GOP senators who will essentially say when all constitutional means are exhausted, violence is ok.
The constitution has worked. Trump was impeached for his incitement to insurrection & the trial is going on. Like any other trial, the jury is a crap shoot.
I have no idea how to force people to grow a conscience. I've no idea of how to make victims of a crime - the senators - stand up & say "Trump, you caused this. The most we can do is keep you out of office, but we will say you put our lives at risk because you didn't get what you wanted."
I wish more people were interested in the topic, but I think there's a general feeling of Trump's gone, let's move on. There will be no precedent to stop another egomaniac or self-centered guy like Cruz & Hawley to pull the same kind of stunt.
I am more interested to know why deadly force was not used against persons who breached the Capitol. That needs corrected.
Agreed - hard to accept the excuses they have used so far for why more police or national guard weren't there.....
There are ongoing investigations, but the National Guard doesn't show up w/o an order & the Proud Boys' plan discussed today revealed that Trump would hold off on them & they'd only have fat ass Capitol Police, some of whom were girls. Trump never did call the NG; Pence did.
Are all Capitol Police officers armed with firearms?
Bunch of these guys are now speaking up and saying they were just following Trump’s wishes. Question - Cyclone. Is that something that can standup in court for defendant in any level of consideration? Also, does that hurt Trump’s case should he face legal issues (not talking impeachment)?
Don't know if you're watching or care at this point. The house managers presented a compelling case v. Trump (essentially a documentary on how it all came together on 1/6) and made it clear that they're not proving the criminal term "incite" but are going for Trump's cumulative high crimes & misdemeanors from before the election through 1/6. As part of that multi-pronged approach, they established his use of existing armed groups as his army - from refusing to condemn them, giving them a slogan - "Proud Boys Stand Back & Stand By" - and using organizers of a week-long rally in DC as well as his own tweets to "invite" these armed groups to DC at a specific time & place. His administration monitored several groups on various traditional & fringe SM where they quite publicly laid out their plans for that day - weapons, assessment of resistance, & Trump's indications that he would hold back on the National Guard - should they not get the patriotic response from the Senate & Pence they expected. Trump wound them up for days & by the time he'd finished his speech on 1/6, they were already in the Capitol watching him on their phones looking for the non-patriot Pussy Pence.
Seems like the answer to your question is that Trump's weaponizing groups/militias into his private mob, call to arms, & instructions on what to do is how it's being described in the impeachment trial. The house managers are still presenting it as just one of the several ways Trump was absurdly trying to "Stop the Steal."
Bunch of these guys are now speaking up and saying they were just following Trump’s wishes. Question - Cyclone. Is that something that can standup in court for defendant in any level of consideration? Also, does that hurt Trump’s case should he face legal issues (not talking impeachment)?
Don't know if you're watching or care at this point. The house managers presented a compelling case v. Trump (essentially a documentary on how it all came together on 1/6) and made it clear that they're not proving the criminal term "incite" but are going for Trump's cumulative high crimes & misdemeanors from before the election through 1/6. As part of that multi-pronged approach, they established his use of existing armed groups as his army - from refusing to condemn them, giving them a slogan - "Proud Boys Stand Back & Stand By" - and using organizers of a week-long rally in DC as well as his own tweets to "invite" these armed groups to DC at a specific time & place. His administration monitored several groups on various traditional & fringe SM where they quite publicly laid out their plans for that day - weapons, assessment of resistance, & Trump's indications that he would hold back on the National Guard - should they not get the patriotic response from the Senate & Pence they expected. Trump wound them up for days & by the time he'd finished his speech on 1/6, they were already in the Capitol watching him on their phones looking for the non-patriot Pussy Pence.
Seems like the answer to your question is that Trump's weaponizing groups/militias into his private mob, call to arms, & instructions on what to do is how it's being described in the impeachment trial. The house managers are still presenting it as just one of the several ways Trump was absurdly trying to "Stop the Steal."
Yes, I've watched a good bit of this except when in work meetings. I agree with your depiction of "compelling case". I'm impressed with the methodical nature & presentation chronologically laid out.
I'm also not surprised by the responses / talking points of Lindsay Graham, Hawley, Cruz, etc. They're just along for the ride & want this to be over. Their votes are already in for Team Trump. I don't think there is anything that would have made them change their mind. They are loyal to a "T", fear the base, and care about their reelections. As to democracy and The Constitution, these GOPQ senators are giving their middle fingers.
As much as I enjoy watching this and feel it is somewhat educational for someone like me, I'm ready to also have it over because the outcome is predetermined sad to say.
Trump has been quiet but will feel emboldened by this time next week, will begin to attack the few in the House & Senate who voted against him, and will assert himself in control of HIS party. This is what the former GOP has become.
I don't think Trump has ever shown / spoken any remorse for any of his actions and the destruction, injuries, & deaths that resulted. I've always said he's a despicable human being, and this is only further evidence. He is the leader & king of the GOPQ.
No, he'll never concede that the election wasn't stolen so he'll never show any remorse. I don't even bother w/what the Trump acolytes have to say.
I just thought the way the house managers used the mob/militias belief/excuse that that they were acting in accordance with or even at the direction of Trump as part of a larger strategy w/multiple persons other than Trump built over 6 months was expertly done. I find it educational, too, as to how they put together a case that could've focused on the elements of a single crime, but they didn't do that. They also got the constitutionality question out of the way before the body of the case was presented.
Don't think the "Trump invited me" defense will work for trials of single members of a militia group, especially since Trump will be acquitted.
I, too, am thrilled to be rid of Trump & just wanted to see this last bit play out; I was satisfied that he was impeached. I'm done w/politics for 4 years.
I do wonder what is going through the minds of Senators like Romney, Markowski, Collins, etc...that are now secure in their seats for another term. Are their constituents making their feelings known? Will they vote their conscience and uphold their oaths?
One thing for sure is any Republican Senator facing election in the next few years can expect a barrage of ads from their opponent depicting the mob scene and their lack of action in the impeachment trial.
Any Dem. challenging them is salivating as we speak as are campaign advisors, pundits, operatives, etc....They can expect a constant reminder of their inaction for the rest of their careers....
I do wonder what is going through the minds of Senators like Romney, Markowski, Collins, etc...that are now secure in their seats for another term. Are their constituents making their feelings known? Will they vote their conscience and uphold their oaths?
One thing for sure is any Republican Senator facing election in the next few years can expect a barrage of ads from their opponent depicting the mob scene and their lack of action in the impeachment trial.
Any Dem. challenging them is salivating as we speak as are campaign advisors, pundits, operatives, etc....They can expect a constant reminder of their inaction for the rest of their careers....
I do wonder what is going through the minds of Senators like Romney, Markowski, Collins, etc...that are now secure in their seats for another term. Are their constituents making their feelings known? Will they vote their conscience and uphold their oaths?
One thing for sure is any Republican Senator facing election in the next few years can expect a barrage of ads from their opponent depicting the mob scene and their lack of action in the impeachment trial.
Any Dem. challenging them is salivating as we speak as are campaign advisors, pundits, operatives, etc....They can expect a constant reminder of their inaction for the rest of their careers....
The problem is that some of the GOPQ Senators are in red states & that regardless of the realities of the last 4 years will, in all likelihood, vote GOPQ reelections. Maybe there might be an exception or two states, but the partisan divide is there, and the voters accept Trump,his belligerence, give him a pass on failed Covid response, and inaction on Russia. Expect little movement.
You’re probably right but i suspect some Trump supporters know he went too far with inciting the riot and also feel those who enabled him should pay a price for doing so.
Attack ads targeting such a voter may prove very effective in those states where a sitting Rep. Senator doesn’t have a tremendous lead in an election. Take for example some states that are beginning to trend purple or even blue right now and even more so in a few years...
I do wonder what is going through the minds of Senators like Romney, Markowski, Collins, etc...that are now secure in their seats for another term. Are their constituents making their feelings known? Will they vote their conscience and uphold their oaths?
One thing for sure is any Republican Senator facing election in the next few years can expect a barrage of ads from their opponent depicting the mob scene and their lack of action in the impeachment trial.
Any Dem. challenging them is salivating as we speak as are campaign advisors, pundits, operatives, etc....They can expect a constant reminder of their inaction for the rest of their careers....
I can't imagine what's going through the minds of most of the GOP senators. The expected ones will vote to convict.
As to the others, I don't know how they can sit there are human beings, listening to the horrors inflicted not just in a political way, but on people - janitorial staff, food service, clerical workers - who just went to work that day during a pandemic because they needed the money. How can anyone let Trump who grew up in privilege dare set a mob on them because he didn't get what he wanted? Trump household & office staff have been fired due to his whims, but this isn't his house. It's a government building w/civil servants & low level employees; it's not just legislators. He's too stupid to know that.
I don't believe they're afraid of losing Trump's base - if that mob represents his base - at some point in the future. If every other GOP office holder has in some way rejected the "steal" theory, why can't they?
You’re probably right but i suspect some Trump supporters know he went too far with inciting the riot and also feel those who enabled him should pay a price for doing so.
Attack ads targeting such a voter may prove very effective in those states where a sitting Rep. Senator doesn’t have a tremendous lead in an election. Take for example some states that are beginning to trend purple or even blue right now and even more so in a few years...
Yep - no doubt. I'm aware of that, but I chose the angle to my original post. I hope you are right and that there are reasonable minds in the conservative movement that are not ok with the direction & violence that Trump has advocated for & taken over the former GOP. I would like to see the true republicans at least stand up for the principles that the party supposedly represents. I have to believe that there is a big enough % that don't feel comfortable with Trump, Q, The Poor Boys, White Nationalism, etc. But then again, Trump got 70+ million votes...so the new order of the GOPQ is here to stay until at least proven differently. Do people like Romney & Collins mean anything, or are characters like Hawley, Cruz, Trump, Trump Jr, and the QAnon Shaman the faces of what used to be something called the GOP?
If you're a hard-core, devout Democrat you can take heart in the fact that Trump has pretty much crashed the Republican vehicle head-long into a liquid petroleum facility, leaving it in a fiery wad of twisted metal. These scratches will not buff out.
But when the noise of this impeachment hearing settles down, Trump will suffer no worse punishment than having melted ice cubes in his drink as he sits around a Mar A Lago swimming pool. Talentless television actresses received stiffer punishment for the gaul of attempting to purchase their children's way into a southern California university. Anybody who posts on this site would receive greater admonishment for spitting on a Washington, D.C. sidewalk.
It is what it is ... or is it?
I think a strong 2-party system is necessary for good government. The GOP lost any credibility w/me when it embraced evangelicals & couldn't see beyond abortion. If Ted Cruz is what's left of the GOP, then I hope someone w/intelligence & leadership abilities starts another party.
As was made very clear today, the point of impeachment isn't to punish - there's no jail time, no fine - it's not a criminal trial. It's a mechanism to remove tyrants & keep them out. That's it. So, why 17 senators can't say "yes, this whole dangerous mob storming Congress was created by Trump because he couldn't stand losing & we can't let that pass lest someone do this in the future" is beyond me.
@cyclone88 Well Trump's lawyers have just proved this is nothing more than absolute and deep seated HATE for Donald Trump. And they played clips of Democrat after Democrat saying the same crazy things that Trump said.
Joe Biden: " Get out there and fight like hell and take this country back" " I'd like to take Donald Trump out back and beat the hell out of him"
Videos of Nancy Pelosi and Hilary Clinton saying Trump stole the 2016 election and cheated and is not a legitimate president. Clinton said " The 2016 election WAS STOLEN FROM ME and Donald Trump knows he is not a legitimate president".
Maxine Waters in several videos inciting violence against Trump supporters and once saying " I'm going to take Trump out tonight ".
Chuck Schumer on video threatening a member of the Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh.
And dozens more. Are you watching?
I'm a moderate Democrat. Not a Trump man. But I believe in fairness. This country is so far apart now than at anytime since the civil war.
Trump's lawyers just one this thing for him. Doubt one Republican will vote to convict now.
It's over so let's move on to more pressing matters facing this country. I'm sick of Trump continuing to be the focus of the Democratic party.
@cyclone88 Well Trump's lawyers have just proved this is nothing more than absolute and deep seated HATE for Donald Trump. And they played clips of Democrat after Democrat saying the same crazy things that Trump said.
Joe Biden: " Get out there and fight like hell and take this country back" " I'd like to take Donald Trump out back and beat the hell out of him"
Videos of Nancy Pelosi and Hilary Clinton saying Trump stole the 2016 election and cheated and is not a legitimate president. Clinton said " The 2016 election WAS STOLEN FROM ME and Donald Trump knows he is not a legitimate president".
Maxine Waters in several videos inciting violence against Trump supporters and once saying " I'm going to take Trump out tonight ".
Chuck Schumer on video threatening a member of the Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh.
And dozens more. Are you watching?
I'm a moderate Democrat. Not a Trump man. But I believe in fairness. This country is so far apart now than at anytime since the civil war.
Trump's lawyers just one this thing for him. Doubt one Republican will vote to convict now.
It's over so let's move on to more pressing matters facing this country. I'm sick of Trump continuing to be the focus of the Democratic party.
Yes, let's take all of them and have them face charges of inciting violence, spreading false information, and just being plain liars.
if one person is facing charges for doing it, all of them should do the same.
Correct, or is there going to be that "well, they said it because" defense?
@jerry Well what to you say about the Nancy Pelosi videos from 2005 and 2016 and five other Democrats protesting the electoral college results and demanding it not be accepted and Joe Biden was running the Senate proceedings in those videos and rejected all those Democrats? Biden did back then what Mike Pence did on January 6th. Certified the will of the people.mk
The ONLY difference between the actions and statements of the two parties is a right wing mob attacked the Capital. Leftwing mobs attacked, defaced and set fires at the FEDERAL courthouse in Portland, Oregon last summer.
Extremists from either side are a danger to the rule of law and the constitution.
Portland allowed a group of leftist thugs just as dangerous and violent as the right wing thugs in Washington on January 6th to occupy an entire section of downtown Portland. Then the question of what about all the merchandise stolen from the downtown stores and the very left leaning politicians running Portland said if it was items the people actually needed and were not able to afford because of racial discrimination and disadvantage, they will not be prosecuted.
How is that fair to the store owners and the rule of law?
EXTREMISM from the far right or left is akin to religious extremism. It is dangerous if you ask me.
No, I'm not watching. I watched the house managers because I wanted to see how well-educated experienced prosecutors put together a case of this type. It was interesting & informative from a professional standpoint.
@cyclone88 But remember you saw a partisan political bias ingrained in the house managers presentation. Something one would have to steer clear of if you are operating as a prosecutor. As a prosecutor you would charge a law breaker regardless of their political leanings.
Well I'm done here. I generally don't enjoy discussing politics or religion. It can create problems between friends.
I'm well aware of what I watched & it wasn't partisan. Did they use clips of Republican responses? Yes, it was a tactic designed to show that members of both parties responded w/fear & anger to having their lives put in danger.
You seem to not realize that a presidential impeachment trial doesn't follow the same rules as a criminal trial. The trial is that the president - of whatever party - takes an entirely different oath of office from any other public office holder in the country. The president is held to the highest standard of protecting, defending, and upholding the constitution. It doesn't matter what some senator, representative, mayor, candidate, or ordinary citizen said. Unless Trump's lawyers showed examples of other presidents telling their armed supporters to interrupt work being done at the Capitol while standing within walking distance of the Capitol, you just wasted 2 hours.
Frankly, smart attorneys would've stood & said "The Defense has no witnesses. The Defense rests" as soon as it was their turn.
OK, so again, it's good for the Dems to incite violence, but not the GOP. No double standard here so, move along folks.
I'm pretty sure the Dems felt fine with the crosshairs on their photos back when the beauty queen from Alaska did it. Right?
No, I'm not watching. I watched the house managers because I wanted to see how well-educated experienced prosecutors put together a case of this type. It was interesting & informative from a professional standpoint.
I agree, and as I told you the other day, I consider it educational. I like to understand politics, the legal system, and The Constitution as much as possible. Hearings like these are good for layman like myself, as these were not my fields of study. However, I like to be informed & not be swayed. Independence of thought is a positive thing.
In my opinion, the case presented today by Trump's team was far from impressive. It seemed to be a political presentation and light on legal defense. Many of the issues & relevant questions raised by the House Mangers were ignored. Also, I am trying to remove my partisan bias in my analysis which is not easy. I'll leave analysis to legal scholars to critique more than I can.
I do believe the House Managers made quite the case. Their evidence and chronology of events seemed to line up with what many many lay types could have garnered since the election through Jan 6 insurrection...actually prior to the election when Trump laid the seeds for his loss claiming that the election would be fraudulent. A good set of ears & eyes listening to & watching Trump over the months can provide a reasonable foundation of what transpired, why, and how. The legalities are again, left to those skilled to explain and argue the points.
@cyclone88 Well Trump's lawyers have just proved this is nothing more than absolute and deep seated HATE for Donald Trump. And they played clips of Democrat after Democrat saying the same crazy things that Trump said.
Joe Biden: " Get out there and fight like hell and take this country back" " I'd like to take Donald Trump out back and beat the hell out of him"
Videos of Nancy Pelosi and Hilary Clinton saying Trump stole the 2016 election and cheated and is not a legitimate president. Clinton said " The 2016 election WAS STOLEN FROM ME and Donald Trump knows he is not a legitimate president".
Maxine Waters in several videos inciting violence against Trump supporters and once saying " I'm going to take Trump out tonight ".
Chuck Schumer on video threatening a member of the Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh.
And dozens more. Are you watching?
I'm a moderate Democrat. Not a Trump man. But I believe in fairness. This country is so far apart now than at anytime since the civil war.
Trump's lawyers just one this thing for him. Doubt one Republican will vote to convict now.
It's over so let's move on to more pressing matters facing this country. I'm sick of Trump continuing to be the focus of the Democratic party.
So, did any violence result from any of those Democrats rhetoric? Did it result in a mob trying to overtake Congress?
And no, what happened in Portland and other places last summer were not the same. I don't remember any Democrats calling for burning, looting, or violence. If they did, then they should be removed. I seem to remember Democrats supporting peaceful protests and condemning violence. If it was only peaceful protests of Trump supporters on January 6th, we wouldn't have this impeachment. They are in no way similar.
I actually think the house managers' presentation would be a good documentary for anyone interested in history. It's really not a legal case; it's much more a political science/history presentation As you say, they pulled all the pieces together clearly & concisely.
For the incitement itself, they didn't just concentrate on one speech on one day; they went back to the incumbent planting the seed that if he didn't win, it would be due to fraud and sent that message straight up to the election & cried fraud from that day on. I found the subtext that has been running throughout this administration of white supremacy going back to Charlottesville VA (not WV as the manager said) "fine people on both sides" to the Proud Boys "Stand back, Stand By chilling. Intelligence re "war" plans shared by armed militant groups just waiting for the word on 1/6 is impossible to refute.
As I said earlier, there was a listing of every local to federal election official & entity that found no fraud who were deemed traitors ending w/Pence writing a well-crafted, constitutionally based letter to the president that he could not do what he'd been asked that resulted in "Hang Pence."
The historic reminders of how determined the founders were not to let a tyrant get a stranglehold on the government & actual constitutional language they used to prevent that were well laid out. 21st century Americans probably don't realize just how well the founders knew what guys who stamped their feet when they didn't get what they wanted could do to an unprotected populace & they'd fought a war to gain freedom from that. The constitution really is a remarkable document & its history really can't be presented in a partisan way. Perhaps because I grew up in Virginia & heard about the founders complete w/field trips to their homes & other sites from K-8, I'm still a bit awestruck at their intelligence & foresight despite their reprehensible private lives.
The profession that might find a wealth of information is psychiatry/behavioral science - that only 1 guy in 245 years went to such extremes to cling to a position that was no longer rightfully his.
Thank you for pointing out the differences 2112.....For a minute there I was almost swayed by the expert way Trump’s attorney’s “proved” that those dastardly and hypocritical Dems. just hate Trump to the extreme and daw gone it there’s nothing more to this than that.....That’s what Limbaugh keeps telling me....Oh, and that Barack Obama is really the man pulling the strings behind the scenes and running this entire impeachment prosecution....
Sarcasm aside, I’ve come to the conclusion that right wing media has perhaps benefited the most from the slow, steady demise of critical thinking skills in the American populace as a whole. But I digress...It’s Friday, I have a four day weekend ahead of me, and three hours ago got the first shot of the Moderna vaccination (thank you Joe Biden, Andrew Cuomo, and the fine folks at my county Public Health Dept.), so life is good... 
