For my money, Page was way too often smashed & sloppy beyond belief to be considered the greatest ever. Of those mentioned, I'll take McLaughlin, Django, Jimi, Beck, Winter, Morse & Warren over Page + Larry Coryell, Charlie Hitchcock (Particle), Herring & Bireli Lagrene (I've seen all of them except Hendrix 2 to many times), but it really doesn't matter in the end. They're all amazing.

Others not mentioned who deserve to be: Roy Buchanan, Steve Howe, Mike Stern, Kazumi Watanabe, Wes Montgomery, Paco DeLucia, Dorado Schmitt, Leo Kottke, Roy Rogers, Allan Holdsworth, Alvin Lee, Buddy Guy, Freddie King, Walter Trout, Trey.

The one thing that Page has that none of those do. His sales out number all of their sales combined.

Besides there is no greatest, it is all a matter of taste. Add to that all the various styles and skill set and one could never be able to judge. People on here will tell you that Warren/Derek are the greatest and yet there are thousands playing classical pieces that they could not. A guy like DiMeola can play like lightening, knows theory like few others and plays chords where fingers do unnatural things but he can't create a song that moves people like Page.

Throwing names out there

Chet does it for me. He played his own over dubs at the same time as the other tracks. I gave seen him play three parts at the same time. His own guitar army.

The one thing that Page has that none of those do. His sales out number all of their sales combined.

Besides there is no greatest, it is all a matter of taste. Add to that all the various styles and skill set and one could never be able to judge. People on here will tell you that Warren/Derek are the greatest and yet there are thousands playing classical pieces that they could not. A guy like DiMeola can play like lightening, knows theory like few others and plays chords where fingers do unnatural things but he can't create a song that moves people like Page.

Throwing names out there

Chet does it for me. He played his own over dubs at the same time as the other tracks. I gave seen him play three parts at the same time. His own guitar army.

what does his sales mean to how well he can play his instrument? does that mean kurt cobain is a better guitar player then jeff beck, leslie west and johnny winter combined since nirvanas sales are greater than all 3 of the artists i named put together?

Sales mean nothing ! Page is/was an admitted ripoff artist. And what has he done with his talents for the last 35 years. Unfortunately not much. Players should play. Page just rested on his laurels. He should be on any list of "greatest" but no where near the top. End of story

Sales mean nothing?

If you consider that it is the goal for making an album, I think it means quite a bit. It also represents the number of people that enjoy your music enough to buy it which in Page's case is a huge chunk of the planet.

Again you can get caught up in some who is better game which is pretty comical. Did Cobain solo as well as any of the three Matt mentioned? Not for a second but then Beck could never write a song. They are different aspects of playing.

Countless players can solo away for hours in all sorts of styles/genres but very few can convince millions upon millions to buy each and every release, rule radio, have millions try and get a ticket for the one show, huge demand over 30 years later and produced the whole thing.

Matt praises hacks like Traci Guns and rips Page. That is funny.

Sales, success, accomplishments and most important pleasing people means nothing. Page sucks. LMAO

I usually dont indulge in these threads about " greatest of all time" and etc. But Jimmy as in the title of the thread so I had to jump in.

I really dont believe in lists of top guitar players.
To many genres, styles,techniques to judge and say one is better than the other. Jimmy is my favorite all time and always will be. That does not mean he is the best though.
I like Angus,Charlie Christian, Django,Steve Morse, Blackmore,
Leo Kottke. Warren,Dickey , Ronnie Wood, EVH,Chris Whitley,Rich Robinson,John Lee Hooker and so on.They are all great in my mind...but is one better than the other?
No.

Canadian Mule had a nice point.
quote :"People on here will tell you that Warren/Derek are the greatest and yet there are thousands playing classical pieces that they could not. A guy like DiMeola can play like lightening, knows theory like few others and plays chords where fingers do unnatural things but he can't create a song that moves people like Page."Very true words there.

I remember reading a an article about 15-20yrs ago with Malcolm Young about his playing and what some of the younger generation of players might be lacking.
He said they just dont have any swing in their music and playing, let the song breathe.

Kinda funny too. I was listening to Brian Johnson on the BBC
network yesterday. He was being interviewed about the new release today. He said something along the lines of Malcolm.
He was asked about the bands music and genere and he said they are just a rock and roll band. Not metal, not hard rock. rock and roll. He explained more about the roll having "swing " in the music and stressed that. Nothing like an AC/DC song to get your head bouncing,foot tapping, and body moving.

There are a few older guys that I have played with and they are
bluegrass boys. They can pick the heck out of guitar and do things that I could never do. More talent in their little fingers
that I would have in my whole body.

Leo Kottke is an outstanding player. I could watch him for hours. If I could study under someone ,he would definetly be one of them.

Leo Kottke- Times Twelve

[Edited on 12/2/2014 by jszfunk]

Hey Mule, can I borrow your Madonna and Lady Gaga CD's . Pretty please.

lots of greats mentioned here.

as far as Weir goes, listen to fall 72, when for some reason he was up higher in the mix. His rhythm playing is quite complex and interesting - sounds more to me like a jazz musician comping. For what he does / did, he was quite good. Not as a headliner, never on slide but imo an under-appreciated rhythm player

Hey Mule, can I borrow your Madonna and Lady Gaga CD's . Pretty please.

Sure if you like but considering how many millions that they have sold, someone much closer to you owns them.

See the trouble is that you would like to decide what people should listen to or like but no one got the memo informing them that your opinion is all that matters. You think that because you don't like Madonna then it is crap. But obviously millions of people disagree and enjoy her music. They do not require your permission/consent to enjoy it nor do they need to explain themselves to you. Disliking something doesn't make it bad, just not for you.

The debate against sales is always comical as is people thinking their opinion is right for everyone and anyone who enjoys something else is wrong. All mindless sheep who just went and bought something that they didn't enjoy.

Clearly selling over a hundred million albums means that an artist sucks and was just having a lucky day.

So Mule let me see if I got this right. Selling lots of albums equates to being a great musician/entertainer. I disagree ( if I may be so bold ). In fact I believe there are millions of mindless sheep in this world. This leads us to Kiss, Bieber, J-Lo..............so throw some of their CD's in there too if you don't mind. I am done with this now.

Um, ah, never mind.

So Mule let me see if I got this right. Selling lots of albums equates to being a great musician/entertainer. I disagree ( if I may be so bold ). In fact I believe there are millions of mindless sheep in this world. This leads us to Kiss, Bieber, J-Lo..............so throw some of their CD's in there too if you don't mind. I am done with this now.

Funny as some think that you are a dinosaur sheep for liking bands such as the ABB. I know I know. You are right and they are wrong. Good thing the ABB could only manage one release in twenty years to compete with them.

And yes you do have it right, a sale means that the person liked the music and bought it. Disagree if you like but now you are trying to convince us of what others should like or buy. Not your choice and it doesn't matter what you think about it. You can't change what others like, you are not the Good Music Nazi who decides.

You guys are aware that you are debating one of the most successful musicians and his abilities? That sure is a lot of sheep. Do you own any Zeppelin? Baaaaa Baaaaaaa

Where is Susan T in this discussion? Wharfy are you out there???

Sales mean nothing ! Page is/was an admitted ripoff artist. And what has he done with his talents for the last 35 years. Unfortunately not much. Players should play. Page just rested on his laurels. He should be on any list of "greatest" but no where near the top. End of story

Not quite that simple -- to call Jimmy Page a ripoff artist based on something involving two songs that happened nearly 50 years ago is ignorant -- "is/was"? -- who's he ripped off since then??

yes they effed up on that 1st album taking credit for those 2 songs -- it was fixed shortly after that to say By Willie Dixon, they paid the piper etc

as a songwriter & guitarist Page had few peers -- this is not news, millions of people felt/feel Zeppelin was a brilliant band still relevant today

Stephen, I agree that LZ was one of the most celebrated bands of all time. I saw them twice in the 70's. And yes they sold millions of LP's. Yet it was much more than 2 songs. In fact some claim most of the 1st album was a ripoff . Plant and Page have admitted it. So my point is that Page just doesn't rate as high as most have him. And he has not done much in 35 yrs.
So yes he is a great guitarist. Yes LZ is a great band, but what have you done for me lately.
The fact that Plant wants nothing to do with a reunion speaks volumes.
And if albums sales was the only benchmark we used , the ABB would be way down the list. Any one who thinks the ABB was a mediocre band should go back to the Yukon Territory and listen to Madonna all winter.

Any one who thinks the ABB was a mediocre band should go back to the Yukon Territory and listen to Madonna all winter.

Does this look like a Madonna fan to you?

Any one who thinks the ABB was a mediocre band should go back to the Yukon Territory and listen to Madonna all winter.

Does this look like a Madonna fan to you?

LMAO! Looks more like Celine's husband to me but I guess he may like Madonna too.

What some fail to see is that different artists have a different intended artist. Why some feel the need to judge is beyond me? Jerry doesn't like Madonna which is cool as he is not the intended audience anyway. No harm or foul except for the fact that some feel that because they don't like it that means it is no good. In her field, Madonna dominated for a long time. People enjoy her music and love her shows. Being at the top of her genre means she attained top sales for that genre. Just as in the early 70s, the ABB topped the southern rock bands of the time which is why their sales were higher. The cream of the crop of each genre almost always rises to the top.

Page wrote well over 100 classic rock songs and people bring up a few songs from the first album. Again there is no 8 minute long versions by Dixon. Those songs were credited long ago and Dixon's estate has made more from those songs then his entire career. Worked out well in the end I think. What about all those other songs? The legions of guitarists inspired by Page? 10 Of the biggest selling albums of all time plus he produced it all. Let's overlook all of that.

Well, just to add MY opinion....I sure have been enjoying the first 5 album 180 gram vinyl remasters by Jimmy Page I bought this year!
And you are correct CM. The Dixon estate made much more money out of the lyrics pilfered by Plant in the end, and I'm sure the estate is making even more now because of the re-releases.
Anyway...it was John Bonham's band, and Jimmy was just lucky enough to play in it. 😉

Willie Dixon only received what he deserved no more no less. He already was a wealthy man having been the main song writer for Chess record also it's #1 bass session man, producer of most of Sonny Boy Williamsons catalog and wrote quite a few cross overs like Johnny Rivers version of 7th son. How many bands covered his songs before Zep....many He wasn't hurting when they stole his tunes....which also include Lemon Song (Killing Floor) and Whole lotta love....

Stephen, I agree that LZ was one of the most celebrated bands of all time. I saw them twice in the 70's. And yes they sold millions of LP's. Yet it was much more than 2 songs. In fact some claim most of the 1st album was a ripoff . Plant and Page have admitted it. So my point is that Page just doesn't rate as high as most have him. And he has not done much in 35 yrs.
So yes he is a great guitarist. Yes LZ is a great band, but what have you done for me lately.
The fact that Plant wants nothing to do with a reunion speaks volumes.
And if albums sales was the only benchmark we used , the ABB would be way down the list. Any one who thinks the ABB was a mediocre band should go back to the Yukon Territory and listen to Madonna all winter.

i agree. i was told years ago chart positions and album sales are a poor argument to how great someone can play an instrument. like you said tons of great musicians would not be able to be mentioned based off of sales.

here are the songs zeppelin has had writing credits changed:
dazed and confused
when the levee breaks
whole lotta love
how many more times
babe i'm gonna leave you
black mountain side
the lemon song
bring it on home

some of these were credited to page when they are traditional songs

Interesting discussion. If you are ever in Chicago and have some time, check this place out. It is pretty cool.

http://www.bluesheaven.com/

And this whole discussion (argument?) is totally subjective. For instance, the first poster mentions Robert Fripp and John McLaughlin.

I have seen both of them live. Fripp opened the G3 tour years ago with Kenny Wayne Shepard, Jonny Lang and whoever the other guy was at the time. Anyway, I thought Fripp was weird as hell.

When I saw McLaughlin I thought he was terrible.

Different strokes.

These make for good bar arguments. 😉

Stephen, I agree that LZ was one of the most celebrated bands of all time. I saw them twice in the 70's. And yes they sold millions of LP's. Yet it was much more than 2 songs. In fact some claim most of the 1st album was a ripoff . Plant and Page have admitted it. So my point is that Page just doesn't rate as high as most have him. And he has not done much in 35 yrs.
So yes he is a great guitarist. Yes LZ is a great band, but what have you done for me lately.
The fact that Plant wants nothing to do with a reunion speaks volumes.
And if albums sales was the only benchmark we used , the ABB would be way down the list. Any one who thinks the ABB was a mediocre band should go back to the Yukon Territory and listen to Madonna all winter.

i agree. i was told years ago chart positions and album sales are a poor argument to how great someone can play an instrument. like you said tons of great musicians would not be able to be mentioned based off of sales.

That is because those musicians can't write songs that appeal. There is much more to playing an instrument then just soloing. Thousands of guys can solo away but when it came time for a song - nothing. Then many of them just ripped off Page and Zeppelin. Especially all the metal guys that Matt praises. They spent hours musically masturbating a million notes per minute and never learned to write a song.

Some play well and can't write so they find someone who can such as Duane.

Funny to hear about blues guys getting ripped off when the songs in question were "borrowed" from blues artists before them. Do you guys really think Dixon invented the 1- 4 - 5 blues progression?

Funny to hear about blues guys getting ripped off when the songs in question were "borrowed" from blues artists before them. Do you guys really think Dixon invented the 1- 4 - 5 blues progression?

I think everyone has pinched from everyone else at one time or another.
It all goes back to Grog the caveman playing some funky beat !!!

Song writing and playing guitar are two entirely different things.

"Writing songs that appeal'? Appeal to who? If you're talking about "success" in this area, you're likely talking about Top 40/Pop people.

I'n not the biggest 'Zep fan on these pages, but it seems to me that he's a studio genius rather than a great live player. There aren't many of the "Classic Rock" guys from the 70's who still turn out new material. That's also another conversation.

Jimmy Page certainly deserves to be mentioned in discussions about great rock and roll guitar players. Back in the day, I always thought Steve Howe (and a few others) were superior players. Yes still puts out new music and continues to tour on a fairly regular basis.

... Funny to hear about blues guys getting ripped off when the songs in question were "borrowed" from blues artists before them. Do you guys really think Dixon invented the 1- 4 - 5 blues progression?

This per a music history/appreciation class that I took in college: The 1-4-5 thing is actually the white mans contribution to what became popular blues music. Blues grew from the "field holler" of the slaves - which was atonal and had no real structure. It was refined into a more musical form when the singers began to hear English and other European folk music - especially the Child Ballads.

Consider:

"Froggie went a courtin and he did ride, Mhmm.
Froggie went a courtin and he did ride, Mhmm.
A sword and a pistol by his side, Mhmm."

compared to (for example)

"Wake up mama, turn your lamp down low,
wake up mama, turn your lamp down low
you got enough nerve to turn uncle John from your door"

Still, fair to say that Led Zepplin "borrowed" ... extensively from Willie Dixon and others. This is typically called being inspired ... until you sign your own name to it! 😉

I'm with Rusty on this.

Cool discussion & to my ears, Except for in its basic blues structure, the Lemon Song bears little resemblance to Killing Floor -- all those titles, Dz&Cfsd, WLottaLv, the others mentioned -- Zep made its own thru brilliant collective musicianship -- the originators might've adored what Zeppelin did with their songs & said they were as much Zep's as they were theirs -- just like Dylan did w/AATWtchtwr & LARStone

the chameleon like aspect of music make it All Good

Stephen, I agree that LZ was one of the most celebrated bands of all time. I saw them twice in the 70's. And yes they sold millions of LP's. Yet it was much more than 2 songs. In fact some claim most of the 1st album was a ripoff . Plant and Page have admitted it. So my point is that Page just doesn't rate as high as most have him. And he has not done much in 35 yrs.
So yes he is a great guitarist. Yes LZ is a great band, but what have you done for me lately.
The fact that Plant wants nothing to do with a reunion speaks volumes.
And if albums sales was the only benchmark we used , the ABB would be way down the list. Any one who thinks the ABB was a mediocre band should go back to the Yukon Territory and listen to Madonna all winter.

i agree. i was told years ago chart positions and album sales are a poor argument to how great someone can play an instrument. like you said tons of great musicians would not be able to be mentioned based off of sales.

That is because those musicians can't write songs that appeal. There is much more to playing an instrument then just soloing. Thousands of guys can solo away but when it came time for a song - nothing. Then many of them just ripped off Page and Zeppelin. Especially all the metal guys that Matt praises. They spent hours musically masturbating a million notes per minute and never learned to write a song.

Some play well and can't write so they find someone who can such as Duane.

Funny to hear about blues guys getting ripped off when the songs in question were "borrowed" from blues artists before them. Do you guys really think Dixon invented the 1- 4 - 5 blues progression?

then duane allman can not be listed as a great guitar player according to you because he doesn't really have any song writing credits. again silly argument because there are songwriters who can play instruments just well enough to write a song. billy powell from lynyrd skynyrd is easily a better piano player than randy newman but newman writes songs so to you that means something i guess

It was you that brought in the songwriting ability, Matt. You chose to overlook all that he has written and brought up the same old crap. Even then the focus on those songs you mention was the lyrical content. What about the other 100+ songs? The legendary solos that had millions playing air guitar and still do to this day.

But instead of giving credit where it is obviously due, you try and be smug about it. As if your opinion throws doubt on his career and accomplishments.

Questioning Page's pedigree is like questioning whether or not a Ferrari is a good car. It may not be your favorite but it is high performance regardless.

Of course people can play well and not write. But they now rely on others to provide them material to play. It was definitely an aspect of Duane's abilities that was lacking. In fact, it is rare that someone of his abilities didn't write. Jeff Beck is another example. It forced Beck to go the fusion route. What did his talent do in fusion? He had some of the best selling albums of that genre. Another example that the cream will rise and sales follow. But when compare to Clapton or Page, he lacks the classic songs. He couldn't write them.

If you don't like him, that is fine but to deny the talent/skill is comical. The man changed the way rock records were made.