"MOHAMMAD ANIMATION MOVIE AND PROMOTIONAL ACTION FIGURINE CREATING FUROR"
Just kidding.
Where we seem to differ is in holding Geller somehow responsible because she correctly surmised that violence would be the response. I do not hold her responsible for the actions of the others even in that case.
I don't hold her responsible for the actions of others either. I hold her responsible for her actions.
There is a lot of nuance here, and that creates room for differing opinion, all of which may be right on some level (or at least not completely wrong). If someone intentionally incites violence, that alone is an act that they should be held responsible for.
All that said, I continue to appreciate your civil discussion of issues on this board.
I believe intelligent, caring, and responsible people can come to different conclusions and hold different opinions even while looking at the same information.
Right back at ya. 
free speech is one thing. Harrassment is another. Wave a red cape and the bull's gonna charge. I think these cartoon people are being a bunch of d*cks. Forget religion, how long would you last if you put a big "F*ck (your state football team name)" sticker on your car? Protected by free speech sure, but someone will retaliate eventually. The cartoon thing is idiotic, and only served to draw out the idiotic opposition.
If you stood outside a conservative Christian church openly mocking their religion for long enough, someone would put a bullet in you. Free speech is great, and our right, but don't go belly aching when you get what you deserve.
you are expecting violence? why?
Pam Keller expected violence, at least that's what I heard her say in an interview, and lo and behold violence happened.
So, the mere threat of violence is enough to quell free speech?
Who said anything about quelling free speech? As has been pointed out countless times in this thread, no one here, not one single person as far as I can tell, has challenged her CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to say whatever she wants and organize whatever event she wants, within the bounds of the law. That is not in question here.
My point is that, by her own admission, she knowingly put the well being of other people, including law enforcement, bystanders and others in the community where the event took place, in danger in order to exercise her free speech rights. That is something I do have an issue with and I will continue to criticize her for, even though she was within her constitutional rights.
Clearly this is not a cut-and-dried issue, but I would ask you this: do you believe that rights come with responsibilities, whether they be legal or moral or ethical? I do. I also believe that freedom without responsibility is just anarchy. Along with the right to free speech comes a responsibility to exercise that right in way that does not endanger others. I think that most people understand this, and the fact that Islam is at the center of this particular incident clouds the issue significantly.
Let's sum it up like this. If someone says to me So and so wants to stage a protest but that protest might lead to an unreasonable violent reaction from Muslims so should we discourage the protest, I would say that is the very reason to hold the protest. Otherwise we are allowing the threat of violence to influence our free expression and we can never do this.
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
you are expecting violence? why?
Pam Keller expected violence, at least that's what I heard her say in an interview, and lo and behold violence happened.
So, the mere threat of violence is enough to quell free speech?
Who said anything about quelling free speech? As has been pointed out countless times in this thread, no one here, not one single person as far as I can tell, has challenged her CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to say whatever she wants and organize whatever event she wants, within the bounds of the law. That is not in question here.
My point is that, by her own admission, she knowingly put the well being of other people, including law enforcement, bystanders and others in the community where the event took place, in danger in order to exercise her free speech rights. That is something I do have an issue with and I will continue to criticize her for, even though she was within her constitutional rights.
Clearly this is not a cut-and-dried issue, but I would ask you this: do you believe that rights come with responsibilities, whether they be legal or moral or ethical? I do. I also believe that freedom without responsibility is just anarchy. Along with the right to free speech comes a responsibility to exercise that right in way that does not endanger others. I think that most people understand this, and the fact that Islam is at the center of this particular incident clouds the issue significantly.
Let's sum it up like this. If someone says to me So and so wants to stage a protest but that protest might lead to an unreasonable violent reaction from Muslims so should we discourage the protest, I would say that is the very reason to hold the protest. Otherwise we are allowing the threat of violence to influence our free expression and we can never do this.
She didn't organize a protest. But for the sake of discussion, if someone organizes a protest (or any other kind of event) and inciting violence "is the very reason" it is being held, that is NOT the right thing to do, even though the person have the right to do it. IMHO.
do you believe that rights come with responsibilities, whether they be legal or moral or ethical?
yes.
If you stood outside a conservative Christian church openly mocking their religion for long enough, someone would put a bullet in you. Free speech is great, and our right, but don't go belly aching when you get what you deserve.
So if you participate in a cartoon contest you deserve to get shot by a terrorist? What the hell are you talking about?
[Edited on 6/5/2015 by alloak41]
If you stood outside a conservative Christian church openly mocking their religion for long enough, someone would put a bullet in you. Free speech is great, and our right, but don't go belly aching when you get what you deserve.
Maybe this is where we differ. I don't believe anyone anywhere deserves to be murdered for expressing their opinion, however much I might disagree with their opinion.
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
"If you stood outside a conservative Christian church openly mocking their religion for long enough, someone would put a bullet in you. Free speech is great, and our right, but don't go belly aching when you get what you deserve."
Does Geller have the right to do and say what she wants and to do it again? Yes.
Do I agree with her? No.
Should the threat of violence be a reason to not hold another event? No.
Will I be surprised if there's another event and violence ensues? No.
The violence belongs solely to the perpetrator of the violence. The person drawing the picture, no matter how vile, is in no way responsible for the actions of the person perpetrating the violence. In no way. The "she made me do it" victim orientation to the situation does not hold any water, even if it is "watered down" (sorry, couldn't resist!) with "well, she only kinda made me do it."
This sounds nice and all, but seems to discount impulsive reactions.
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
"If you stood outside a conservative Christian church openly mocking their religion for long enough, someone would put a bullet in you. Free speech is great, and our right, but don't go belly aching when you get what you deserve."
That's not how I read that at all. Nowhere was it said that someone couldn't mock that religion. That statement merely refers to the reaction.
You are walking down the street with your wife. I walk up to you and insult her. No spoken threat, no physical threat, I just insult her. You punch me.
Did I have the right to insult her? Was it right for you to punch me?
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
If you participate and someone gets upset and shoots you, you're getting what you deserve. From where I sit, that's not much of an endorsement.
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
If you participate and someone gets upset and shoots you, you're getting what you deserve. From where I sit, that's not much of an endorsement.
Or put another way, if you act like an ahole long enough, someone is apt to treat you like an ahole.
[Edited on 6/5/2015 by gondicar]
you are expecting violence? why?
Pam Keller expected violence, at least that's what I heard her say in an interview, and lo and behold violence happened.
So, the mere threat of violence is enough to quell free speech?
Who said anything about quelling free speech? As has been pointed out countless times in this thread, no one here, not one single person as far as I can tell, has challenged her CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to say whatever she wants and organize whatever event she wants, within the bounds of the law. That is not in question here.
My point is that, by her own admission, she knowingly put the well being of other people, including law enforcement, bystanders and others in the community where the event took place, in danger in order to exercise her free speech rights. That is something I do have an issue with and I will continue to criticize her for, even though she was within her constitutional rights.
Clearly this is not a cut-and-dried issue, but I would ask you this: do you believe that rights come with responsibilities, whether they be legal or moral or ethical? I do. I also believe that freedom without responsibility is just anarchy. Along with the right to free speech comes a responsibility to exercise that right in way that does not endanger others. I think that most people understand this, and the fact that Islam is at the center of this particular incident clouds the issue significantly.
Let's sum it up like this. If someone says to me So and so wants to stage a protest but that protest might lead to an unreasonable violent reaction from Muslims so should we discourage the protest, I would say that is the very reason to hold the protest. Otherwise we are allowing the threat of violence to influence our free expression and we can never do this.
She didn't organize a protest. But for the sake of discussion, if someone organizes a protest (or any other kind of event) and inciting violence "is the very reason" it is being held, that is NOT the right thing to do, even though the person have the right to do it. IMHO.
I disagree completely. If I want to protest something and my opponents say if I protest it they will react violently perhaps threaten to kill me or others it would might intimidate me into silence (I am not especially brave) or it might not but it would make me want to hold the protest just to expose the kind of barbarism that has no place in a free society.
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
I don't see anywhere in my above statement where I used the word "suppress." Can you point it out?
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
If you participate and someone gets upset and shoots you, you're getting what you deserve. From where I sit, that's not much of an endorsement.
Or put another way, if you act like an ahole long enough, someone is apt to treat you like an ahole.
[Edited on 6/5/2015 by gondicar]
Unless you are a Muslim ahole. Then you will be able to say or do whatever you like confident that polite society will either cover it up or defend you.
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
I don't see anywhere in my above statement where I used the word "suppress." Can you point it out?
I wasn't being hostile. I didn't understand your response re:convenience.
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
If you participate and someone gets upset and shoots you, you're getting what you deserve. From where I sit, that's not much of an endorsement.
Or put another way, if you act like an ahole long enough, someone is apt to treat you like an ahole.
[Edited on 6/5/2015 by gondicar]
Unless you are a Muslim ahole. Then you will be able to say or do whatever you like confident that polite society will either cover it up or defend you.
All kinds of aholes get defended in our society, every day.
There's two issues in play on this topic, IMO. One is the rights and responsibilities (or lack thereof, or somewhere in between) of free expression, and the other is how extremist fundamentalist Muslims react to things.
The violence belongs solely to the perpetrator of the violence. The person drawing the picture, no matter how vile, is in no way responsible for the actions of the person perpetrating the violence. In no way. The "she made me do it" victim orientation to the situation does not hold any water, even if it is "watered down" (sorry, couldn't resist!) with "well, she only kinda made me do it."
This sounds nice and all, but seems to discount impulsive reactions.
Ah yes, the victim orientation.
"It's not my fault. There's nothing I could do about it, it just happened. What they did made me do what I did. It was just impulse. I didn't actually make a decision to act a certain way."
The violence belongs solely to the perpetrator of the violence. The person drawing the picture, no matter how vile, is in no way responsible for the actions of the person perpetrating the violence. In no way. The "she made me do it" victim orientation to the situation does not hold any water, even if it is "watered down" (sorry, couldn't resist!) with "well, she only kinda made me do it."
This sounds nice and all, but seems to discount impulsive reactions.
Ah yes, the victim orientation.
"It's not my fault. There's nothing I could do about it, it just happened. What they did made me do what I did. It was just impulse. I didn't actually make a decision to act a certain way."
Nope, not what I'm saying at all.
Oh well.
"If you stood outside a conservative Christian church openly mocking their religion for long enough, someone would put a bullet in you. Free speech is great, and our right, but don't go belly aching when you get what you deserve."
That's not how I read that at all. Nowhere was it said that someone couldn't mock that religion. That statement merely refers to the reaction.
A reaction that you deserve, which means is justified by yur actions. as I said, I disagree that murdering someone for expressing their opinion is justified or deserved.
You are walking down the street with your wife. I walk up to you and insult her. No spoken threat, no physical threat, I just insult her. You punch me.
Did I have the right to insult her? Was it right for you to punch me?
You have the right to express your opinion about her. If I punch you, I am guilty of assault, which means I have broken the law and am liable to criminal prosecution, which means I absolutely do night have the right to punch you. Just as the the guys were gunned down by the police in the Geller incident. She was within her rights, they wee not. I am in agreement with the rights and laws in these matters as they are written, and believe the rights should be protected and the laws enforced. What about you?
The violence belongs solely to the perpetrator of the violence. The person drawing the picture, no matter how vile, is in no way responsible for the actions of the person perpetrating the violence. In no way. The "she made me do it" victim orientation to the situation does not hold any water, even if it is "watered down" (sorry, couldn't resist!) with "well, she only kinda made me do it."
This sounds nice and all, but seems to discount impulsive reactions.
Ah yes, the victim orientation.
"It's not my fault. There's nothing I could do about it, it just happened. What they did made me do what I did. It was just impulse. I didn't actually make a decision to act a certain way."Nope, not what I'm saying at all.
Oh well.
Okay, I'll bite. What are you saying? What do you mean by "impulsive reaction?"
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
If you participate and someone gets upset and shoots you, you're getting what you deserve. From where I sit, that's not much of an endorsement.
Or put another way, if you act like an ahole long enough, someone is apt to treat you like an ahole.
[Edited on 6/5/2015 by gondicar]
Unless you are a Muslim ahole. Then you will be able to say or do whatever you like confident that polite society will either cover it up or defend you.
What do you mean? Do you mean defend as in defend in court as a defense lawyer? What cover up are you referring to? Not sure I get this statement at all.
[Edited on 6/5/2015 by gondicar]
If it's anti white, jew, or Christian, it's bigotry and ignorance. When it's anti-Muslim, it's freedom of expression.
It's sad that many here don't have the courage of their convictions about their anti-Muslim feelings, and choose to instead hide behind their "freedom of expression". I'm not anti-gay, I just believe in the Bible. I'm not anti-Muslim, I just believe in freedom of expression - please. Stop with the b.s., stop being a bunch of p*ssies. Stop hiding.
Why don't you admit that you are a coward who only believes in free epxression when it is convenient?
I've read over this thread several times and can't find where anyone has actually been in favor of suppressing free expression. Can you point it out?
If you participate and someone gets upset and shoots you, you're getting what you deserve. From where I sit, that's not much of an endorsement.
Or put another way, if you act like an ahole long enough, someone is apt to treat you like an ahole.
[Edited on 6/5/2015 by gondicar]
Unless you are a Muslim ahole. Then you will be able to say or do whatever you like confident that polite society will either cover it up or defend you.
All kinds of aholes get defended in our society, every day.
There's two issues in play on this topic, IMO. One is the rights and responsibilities (or lack thereof, or somewhere in between) of free expression, and the other is how extremist fundamentalist Muslims react to things.
I'll add a third issue that is at play on this topic, IMO: how Americans reaction to anything that has to do with Islam, or if you want to use the current buzzword, Islamophobia.
A reaction that you deserve, which means is justified by yur actions. as I said, I disagree that murdering someone for expressing their opinion is justified or deserved.
I disagree as well. However, in the actual action of the moment, that's irrelevant.
"If you go looking for trouble, you'll find it."
That does not exclude responsibility from whoever gives you trouble. Unfortunately, it does not make you any less beat up or shot, either.
You have the right to express your opinion about her. If I punch you, I am guilty of assault, which means I have broken the law and am liable to criminal prosecution, which means I absolutely do night have the right to punch you.
But you did punch me. And in the heat of that moment, you didn't measure out the consequences, you just did it. That's what I mean about impulse. Whether or not you are held legally responsible for it doesn't make me any less punched.
Just as the the guys were gunned down by the police in the Geller incident. She was within her rights, they wee not. I am in agreement with the rights and laws in these matters as they are written, and believe the rights should be protected and the laws enforced. What about you?
Of course I do. Why on earth would you believe otherwise?
The presumptions everyone is making on this topic based on how they think others think because of their presumed political stance is comically ridiculous.
Doughron, how is it cowardly? I don't see how that applies. A little selfish and arrogant? Sure, maybe I can concede that, but it's not cowardly as far as I can see. I'm not afraid to admit I have flaws. Now will the Geller supporters be honest about their true convictions? I won't hold my breath.
You know its wrong before you do it. You make a decision to do it anyway. You are responsible for that decision. I did not cause you to do it. In the Geller case, the perpetrators were willing to use violence to quell the free expression of ideas on US soil. They were certainly not acting on impulse, but it doesn't matter. I don't care about the party, religion, nationality, gender, or any other identifiers one wants to use, the perpetrators broke the law and are dead for it. Geller did not, she is going about her business. I don't like or agree with the nature of her business, but it is her business. If someone wants to insult my wife, my religion, my political beliefs, my football team, my taste in music, that's their business. How I respond to that is mine, as are the consequences. If someone attempts to suppress my expression of any of those beliefs with the threat of violence, that is a violation of my rights as a US citizen. If I decline to express my opinions because I'm afraid of the the threat of violence, that is also my right. I don't see what there is to debate about any of that.
