Just like drugs, legislation cannot stop gun violence.
Legislation w/o enforcement is toothless.
Nowhere are these statements more tragic and true than when it comes to guns -- like the drug war, it's impossible to win -- you can adopt all the laws in the world, but as long as guns are out there, massacres will continue
Another side of this particular tragedy that I find truly impressive is the attitude of the family members of the victims and of so many of the residents of Charleston. There are still strong, good hearted people in this world.
True.
Unfortunately there also seems to be more & more of the wack jobs - neighborhood watch cop wannabes who kill innocent teens, movie theater mass murder types, elementary school mass murder types, church mass murder types. Sad to say but these examples described are becoming a regular thing.
I know. And I feel discouraged that the only way we seem to want to combat this is by having everybody become a killer at the touch of a trigger.
Many of these outbursts of violence have been linked to the use of SSRI drugs. I wonder if Roof was on anti-depressant meds?
Roof was arrested for suboxy which, like meth, is used to combat heroin addiction. There are many claims by former users that sudden withdrawal from it causes near-term violent outbursts. I haven't seen any studies supporting this and no reports that Roof actually used it or was merely selling it.
I don't see it having much chance as a mental impairment defense if it goes to federal trial as a hate crime.
Nothing to do with mental defense, just pointing to a possible common link between all these bizarre killing sprees. Looking at what these people are on and the roots of racism and hatred are a better tree to bark up than guns.
Nothing to do with mental defense, just pointing to a possible common link between all these bizarre killing sprees. Looking at what these people are on and the roots of racism and hatred are a better tree to bark up than guns.
Good point.
Making burglary and murder illegal hasn't stopped them from happening. Maybe we should forget about those laws too?
Burglary and murder are not Rights granted by the Constitution. Owning a gun is, a fact seemingly forgotten by the gun control nuts.
Maybe that is forgotten by "gun control nuts" but people who aren't nuts can clearly see that there is a need for regulation. In fact, the Constitution itself says "well-regulated" and therein lies the rub, i.e. how to define "well-regulated." And you don't have to be a nut to understand that.
I shouldn't have used that term. You guys are entitled to your opinions on the matter without being called a name. I apologize. I know you're nothing close to being a nut.
I agree there is a need for regulation, but perhaps even a bigger need for enforcement. This incident could have been prevented.
I agree there is a need for regulation, but perhaps even a bigger need for enforcement. This incident could have been prevented.
I can certainly agree with that. The odds of getting guns out of the hands of the citizenry in the US are about zero. So if we are going to have them , let's enforce the hell out of the laws we already have on the books, make it a really big deal in our culture to be responsible gun owners and hammer those who aren't. Then if we need to change or add laws we can, but I don't see how we can determine that need without first enforcing what we have.
That's the whole problem IMO -- how can anything on paper be enforced when a twisted person comes into possession of a gun -- we've changed/added the laws many times, esp in response to slaughters like this --
no laws/legislation can regulate what people do with guns in their hands -- but that to me is secondary to the upcoming "temporary insanity" his lowlife public defender will file in proclaiming this assshole's innocence & seeking to dismiss all charges
All prayers to the devastated loved ones of the victims --
[Edited on 6/23/2015 by Stephen]
This discussion has taken place word for word many times in recent years -- 32 dead in W.Va college massacre, more dead in Denver movie theatre massacre -- going back to Columbine, Kip Kinkel etc....
...and will take place many more times in the future
as long as there are guns, massacres will occur -- the human track record, aka history, proves itI still say, the people who commit these crimes forfeit their right to "due process" "right to a legal trial" .... Neo-Nazi skinheads, KKK types, types who kill in the name of racial supremacy -- isn't that what Hitler was all about?
furnishing these people with rights only makes it worse for the loved ones of the victims
This is perhaps the most radical statement I have ever seen expressed on this board and I hope you don't actually mean it. Rights are not "given" by the state. Rights exist and are endowed by the creator and cannot be taken away by the state. And one of the rights is to be presumed innocent and to be convicted by a jury of his peers.
This discussion has taken place word for word many times in recent years -- 32 dead in W.Va college massacre, more dead in Denver movie theatre massacre -- going back to Columbine, Kip Kinkel etc....
...and will take place many more times in the future
as long as there are guns, massacres will occur -- the human track record, aka history, proves itI still say, the people who commit these crimes forfeit their right to "due process" "right to a legal trial" .... Neo-Nazi skinheads, KKK types, types who kill in the name of racial supremacy -- isn't that what Hitler was all about?
furnishing these people with rights only makes it worse for the loved ones of the victims
This is perhaps the most radical statement I have ever seen expressed on this board and I hope you don't actually mean it. Rights are not "given" by the state. Rights exist and are endowed by the creator and cannot be taken away by the state. And one of the rights is to be presumed innocent and to be convicted by a jury of his peers.
There will always be exceptions, many of them justified by some.
The people of Charleston handled the tragedy in a peaceful and thoughtful manner.
Looks like that might change:
New Black Panthers Announce Two Charleston Rallies for This Week
June 22, 2015
Malik Zulu Shabazz, the national President of the New Black Panther Party, has announced two rallies in Charleston, South Carolina in the wake of shooting deaths of nine black Christians that prosecutors say was committed by America-hating white racist Dylann Roof.
The first rally is called In Defense of the Black Church scheduled for Tuesday, June 23rd at 5;30 in Charleston’s Marion Square, just down the street from the scene of the shooting.
The second rally is scheduled for Saturday, June 27th and is called the Rally To Burn White Supremacy and is planed for4pm, also in Marion Square.
The events are being held in conjunction with groups such as the Nation of Islam, the Huey Newton Gun Club, and the Charleston chapter of Black Lives Matter.
One of the featured speakers will be Sister Solove, who went viral in two videos featured last week on Breitbart News. In one, she heckled CNN hosts live on the air, and in the other, she called for a race war in front of the Emanuel AME church that was the scene of the Charleston Massacre.
Shabazz posted on his Facebook Page:
ALL ROADS LEAD TO SOUTH CAROLINA.
That’s where the hot action is now. The locals are blowing my phone up every minute saying they need our aid and advocacy.
ALL ROADS LEAD TO SOUTH CAROLINA. THAT PLANTATION STATE WITH THE BLOOD OF GODS CHOSEN ON ITS WICKED HANDS.
Shabazz and the New Black Panther Party have been active in protests about the death of Trayvon Martin as well as the events in Ferguson and Baltimore.
[Edited on 6/23/2015 by Muleman1994]
This discussion has taken place word for word many times in recent years -- 32 dead in W.Va college massacre, more dead in Denver movie theatre massacre -- going back to Columbine, Kip Kinkel etc....
...and will take place many more times in the future
as long as there are guns, massacres will occur -- the human track record, aka history, proves itI still say, the people who commit these crimes forfeit their right to "due process" "right to a legal trial" .... Neo-Nazi skinheads, KKK types, types who kill in the name of racial supremacy -- isn't that what Hitler was all about?
furnishing these people with rights only makes it worse for the loved ones of the victims
This is perhaps the most radical statement I have ever seen expressed on this board and I hope you don't actually mean it. Rights are not "given" by the state. Rights exist and are endowed by the creator and cannot be taken away by the state. And one of the rights is to be presumed innocent and to be convicted by a jury of his peers.
I agree with your statement here. However, it seems like you didn't feel that way about those locked away in Guantanamo. Didn't you say those prisoners didn't have rights to a trial because they were not US citizens? Do rights endowed by the creator somehow not apply to everyone?
then again, a flag is just an intimate cloth object
True enough. And moreover had nothing to do with __________ going on his tragic shooting spree. The flag didn't cause him to pull the trigger.
In reality, this flag controversy is just another diversion. Who cares about China hacking our databases, Iran nukes, the trade deal, questions about the Clinton foundation, or contracting economy when the media is consumed by a flag, a white black woman, or a transgender decathlete?
This flag frenzy also has an added benefit. It provides another opportunity to talk about racism! Yes, and we need to have a serous conversation about that...
Ever valuable, because there's always a chance to attach Republicans to it! Never pass up that tactic, especially with an election campaign starting to heat up (even though it was SC Democrats who put the damn flag up in the first place.)
then again, a flag is just an intimate cloth object
True enough. And moreover had nothing to do with __________ going on his tragic shooting spree. The flag didn't cause him to pull the trigger.
In reality, this flag controversy is just another diversion. Who cares about China hacking our databases, Iran nukes, the trade deal, questions about the Clinton foundation, or contracting economy when the media is consumed by a flag, a white black woman, or a transgender decathlete?
This flag frenzy also has an added benefit. It provides another opportunity to talk about racism! Yes, and we need to have a serous conversation about that...
Ever valuable, because there's always a chance to attach Republicans to it! Never pass up that tactic, especially with an election campaign starting to heat up (even though it was SC Democrats who put the damn flag up in the first place.)
______________________________________________________________________
Any “symbol” can be adapted and perverted by anyone for any reason.
Even making a statement like “All Lives Matter” is considered racists by the hate groups.
The in your face race baiting by some just fuels the fire.
The identity politics, class warfare and pandering by the politicians while despicable is just the way of the modern politician.
Only when people realize and admit that the problem lies in people’s hearts and minds will progress begin.
when will you pay them back?
This discussion has taken place word for word many times in recent years -- 32 dead in W.Va college massacre, more dead in Denver movie theatre massacre -- going back to Columbine, Kip Kinkel etc....
...and will take place many more times in the future
as long as there are guns, massacres will occur -- the human track record, aka history, proves itI still say, the people who commit these crimes forfeit their right to "due process" "right to a legal trial" .... Neo-Nazi skinheads, KKK types, types who kill in the name of racial supremacy -- isn't that what Hitler was all about?
furnishing these people with rights only makes it worse for the loved ones of the victims
This is perhaps the most radical statement I have ever seen expressed on this board and I hope you don't actually mean it. Rights are not "given" by the state. Rights exist and are endowed by the creator and cannot be taken away by the state. And one of the rights is to be presumed innocent and to be convicted by a jury of his peers.
I mean every last word of it
Numerous people have been unfairly handed life sentences -- of heart skickness -- their loved ones were methodically executed while attending church --
while some smile and shrug their shoulders at this, to me it's a heinous crime of the most despicable sort that deserves the most exacting standards of justice -- death, no questions asked
I know that many are sticking up for this serial killer in the belief that he deserves rights, and may have been on drugs at the time so that he can't be held responsible for his mass murders --
would you feel the same way if something like this occured in your family???
[Edited on 6/23/2015 by Stephen]
This discussion has taken place word for word many times in recent years -- 32 dead in W.Va college massacre, more dead in Denver movie theatre massacre -- going back to Columbine, Kip Kinkel etc....
...and will take place many more times in the future
as long as there are guns, massacres will occur -- the human track record, aka history, proves itI still say, the people who commit these crimes forfeit their right to "due process" "right to a legal trial" .... Neo-Nazi skinheads, KKK types, types who kill in the name of racial supremacy -- isn't that what Hitler was all about?
furnishing these people with rights only makes it worse for the loved ones of the victims
This is perhaps the most radical statement I have ever seen expressed on this board and I hope you don't actually mean it. Rights are not "given" by the state. Rights exist and are endowed by the creator and cannot be taken away by the state. And one of the rights is to be presumed innocent and to be convicted by a jury of his peers.
I agree with your statement here. However, it seems like you didn't feel that way about those locked away in Guantanamo. Didn't you say those prisoners didn't have rights to a trial because they were not US citizens? Do rights endowed by the creator somehow not apply to everyone?
X2...good point.
I'm also thinking that those individuals murdered in that church didn't have rights (as in the right to life) because the racist murderer appointed himself jury and executioner.
This discussion has taken place word for word many times in recent years -- 32 dead in W.Va college massacre, more dead in Denver movie theatre massacre -- going back to Columbine, Kip Kinkel etc....
...and will take place many more times in the future
as long as there are guns, massacres will occur -- the human track record, aka history, proves itI still say, the people who commit these crimes forfeit their right to "due process" "right to a legal trial" .... Neo-Nazi skinheads, KKK types, types who kill in the name of racial supremacy -- isn't that what Hitler was all about?
furnishing these people with rights only makes it worse for the loved ones of the victims
This is perhaps the most radical statement I have ever seen expressed on this board and I hope you don't actually mean it. Rights are not "given" by the state. Rights exist and are endowed by the creator and cannot be taken away by the state. And one of the rights is to be presumed innocent and to be convicted by a jury of his peers.
I mean every last word of it
Numerous people have been unfairly handed life sentences -- of heart skickness -- their loved ones were methodically executed while attending church --
while some smile and shrug their shoulders at this, to me it's a heinous crime of the most despicable sort that deserves the most exacting standards of justice -- death, no questions asked
I know that many are sticking up for this serial killer in the belief that he deserves rights, and may have been on drugs at the time so that he can't be held responsible for his mass murders --
would you feel the same way if something like this occured in your family???[Edited on 6/23/2015 by Stephen]
I have not heard very much, if any, support for this guy. No matter how you feel about this, Roof is entitled to the same considerations as any other accused criminal. I really don't think that his mental state will enter into the equation as he admitted to the crime.
I'm also thinking that those individuals murdered in that church didn't have rights (as in the right to life) because the racist murderer appointed himself jury and executioner.
THIS is what's hard to believe -- I don't know if you're serious or not
In the WW II era there was a facist by the name of Adolf Hitler, who as jury and executioner was responsible for the deaths of millions
BUT, like the church goers in SC, the people of jewish faith who died in gas chambers and furnaces had no rights either, to hear people on the boards here tell it
Is there ANYTHING to be said for the people suffering because of this? Who speaks for them anyway?
I'm also thinking that those individuals murdered in that church didn't have rights (as in the right to life) because the racist murderer appointed himself jury and executioner.
THIS is what's hard to believe -- I don't know if you're serious or not
In the WW II era there was a facist by the name of Adolf Hitler, who as jury and executioner was responsible for the deaths of millions
BUT, like the church goers in SC, the people of jewish faith who died in gas chambers and furnaces had no rights either, to hear people on the boards here tell itIs there ANYTHING to be said for the people suffering because of this? Who speaks for them anyway?
________________________________________________________________________
Their congregation and the people of Charleston are speaking for them, listening to each other and standing strong in peace and forgiveness.
It is a beautiful thing.
Is there ANYTHING to be said for the people suffering because of this? Who speaks for them anyway?
Absolutely. The federal/state prosecutors speak for the people.
The families also have opportunities to make victim impact statements and the families in Charleston did so at the earliest opportunity and gracefully and in good faith forgave the murdering SOB.
Is there ANYTHING to be said for the people suffering because of this? Who speaks for them anyway?
Absolutely. The federal/state prosecutors speak for the people.
The families also have opportunities to make victim impact statements and the families in Charleston did so at the earliest opportunity and gracefully and in good faith forgave the murdering SOB.
And if this goes to trial, and he is found guilty, the families will be able to speak at his sentencing.
We should give credit to where credit is due. Kudos to the Republican leaders in SC that led to the flag removal, and to the retailers that followed. Democracy at work. No laws needed - just the voice of the people to make a long-needed change.
like the church goers in SC, the people of jewish faith who died in gas chambers and furnaces had no rights either, to hear people on the boards here tell it
It's to your credit that you are upset and worked up, feeling the pain and indignation, but I have no idea where you get the idea that anyone here does not feel awful about this thing, or thinks the victims have no rights... The reason this thread is so huge is because everyone is very upset, and trying to make sense out of something so senseless. Back off.
It's a bad mistake giving this mass shooter's opinions any consideration. The crazed lunatic gets the attention, and his disposition is somehow important?
Now we've got people out saying that this shooting proves that racism still exists (duhhh), and proves we need a conversation on race, and that the Confederate flag needs to come down, ect, ect.
THIS LONE KILLER SHOULD BE IGNORED!!!
Now the next isolated nutcase with a beef feels like if he just goes and shoots some people and 1) he's instantly famous, and 2) his feelings on a given topic are given enough weight to dominate the media for days on end.
This is terribly wrong IMO.
It's a bad mistake giving this mass shooter's opinions any consideration. The crazed lunatic gets the attention, and his disposition is somehow important?
Now we've got people out saying that this shooting proves that racism still exists (duhhh), and proves we need a conversation on race, and that the Confederate flag needs to come down, ect, ect.
THIS LONE KILLER SHOULD BE IGNORED!!!
Now the next isolated nutcase with a beef feels like if he just goes and shoots some people and 1) he's instantly famous, and 2) his feelings on a given topic are given enough weight to dominate the media for days on end.
This is terribly wrong IMO.
I agree with most of that. I also think we give far too much publicity to ISIS and others that promote an agenda through violence. That is exactly what they want.
Roof killed more Americans in this one heinous act than ISIS has killed in two years.
If we committed a tenth of the resources we commit to battling ISIS to mass shootings I bet we could save a lot of American lives.
It's a bad mistake giving this mass shooter's opinions any consideration. The crazed lunatic gets the attention, and his disposition is somehow important?
Now we've got people out saying that this shooting proves that racism still exists (duhhh), and proves we need a conversation on race, and that the Confederate flag needs to come down, ect, ect.
THIS LONE KILLER SHOULD BE IGNORED!!!
Now the next isolated nutcase with a beef feels like if he just goes and shoots some people and 1) he's instantly famous, and 2) his feelings on a given topic are given enough weight to dominate the media for days on end.
This is terribly wrong IMO.
I understand your point, but what you are calling for is akin to burying our collective heads in the sand and that is worse, IMO.
It is also reflective of living in a free society. People are free to discuss whatever they want, that includes the press and individuals. If the overwhelming amount of gun violence in this country is an acceptable by-product of our right to bear arms, then aren't these conversations about race and the confederate flag and yes even Dylan Roof and his belief system all acceptable by products of our rights to free speech and freedom of the press?
I think you would advocate that people are generally responsible for their own actions, but here you seem to be blaming the next "lone killer" on the words of other people and the media in response to Roof's actions. Can't have it both ways.
PS - what makes Roof a "crazed lunatic" and the convicted marathon bomber and his dead brother terrorists rather than "crazed lunatics" themselves? In both cases they were acting to kill people on behalf of their beliefs, in both cases they intended to send a political message, and in neither case were the perpetrators acting in concert with any organization even though in both cases the perpetrators were influenced by the words and teachings of organizations that helped to form their beliefs. A real "crazed lunatic" would obviously have a slam-dunk insanity defense, a cold calculated killer acting on his own beliefs, as misguided as they are, would not. It will be interesting to see how Roof's defense plays out.
[Edited on 6/24/2015 by gondicar]
Roof killed more Americans in this one heinous act than ISIS has killed in two years.
If we committed a tenth of the resources we commit to battling ISIS to mass shootings I bet we could save a lot of American lives.
_________________________________________________________________________
Are you kidding?
Now if you would have said “in the last two minutes” you might have been accurate.
The main stream media has been down playing the mass murder and atrocities of ISIS but the responsible press has been meeting their responsibilities reporting the actual news.
Your information source choice is not serving you well.
Following your theme:
How many veterans has the Obama administration killed in the VA system waiting for the care they earned?
BTW – RIP Capt’n Skipper
