I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?
Yes, as long as they are not at work.
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?
Yes, as long as they are not at work.
Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?
Yes, as long as they are not at work.
Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?
There are consequences for everyone receiving a Paycheck who decides to disobey the rules put forth by the Boss.
True or false?
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I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?Yes, as long as they are not at work.
Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?
This could potentially go all the way to the Supreme Court. I don't believe there is legal precedence for this issue. What I DO know is that the Supreme Court has already ruled years ago that an employer has a right to fire someone who tests positive for marijuana even if marijuana is outright legal in that state. The court ruled that a company is the employer's private entity and they have a right to demand a clean drug test.
I'm assuming that if the protest issue did go that far, the court would rule that if an employer wishes to keep political protests out of their business they have every right to do so.
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I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?Yes, as long as they are not at work.
Ditto. Seems a bit too complex for some here to understand though, Vince.
There are consequences for everyone receiving a Paycheck who decides to disobey the rules put forth by the Boss.
True or false?
Yes, a fine apparently. Point?
Yes, as long as they are not at work.
Why do you speak for business owners?
Ditto. Seems a bit too complex for some here to understand though, Vince.
LOL, hilarious. "Too complex", yet you bailed on responding to me because you have nothing. It's not illegal in any way. The only consequence is to get fired. The players are willing to take that chance. The NFL and owners have done nothing until now....why? Because they need the players. No law is being broken. Sounds like you are mostly upset with the NFL and the owners for not doing anything about it until now. But you claim its "too complex" for others....don't make me laugh.
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I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?Yes, as long as they are not at work.
Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?
This could potentially go all the way to the Supreme Court. I don't believe there is legal precedence for this issue. What I DO know is that the Supreme Court has already ruled years ago that an employer has a right to fire someone who tests positive for marijuana even if marijuana is outright legal in that state. The court ruled that a company is the employer's private entity and they have a right to demand a clean drug test.
I'm assuming that if the protest issue did go that far, the court would rule that if an employer wishes to keep political protests out of their business they have every right to do so.
I guess that means that if an employee had a political bumper sticker on his car that the employer did not approve of, he could fire the employee if he parks the car in the company parking lot.
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?
Yes, as long as they are not at work.
Where in the Constitution does it state that you have the right to free expression or free speech everywhere but at work?
There are consequences for everyone receiving a Paycheck who decides to disobey the rules put forth by the Boss.
True or false?
No. An illegal rule can not get an employee fired. Courts have ruled that way many times.
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I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?Yes, as long as they are not at work.
Ditto. Seems a bit too complex for some here to understand though, Vince.
Everything BigV posts is an absolute with no room for negotiation. But we are the ones who find this too complex. Hysterical.
LOL, hilarious. "Too complex", yet you bailed on responding to me because you have nothing. It's not illegal in any way. The only consequence is to get fired. The players are willing to take that chance. The NFL and owners have done nothing until now....why? Because they need the players. No law is being broken. Sounds like you are mostly upset with the NFL and the owners for not doing anything about it until now. But you claim its "too complex" for others....don't make me laugh.
As mentioned I believe that this will eventually go to court. And based on the marijuana issue, I believe I know what the court will decide. You and I can debate all day but it's not going to effect the outcome much.
LOL, hilarious. "Too complex", yet you bailed on responding to me because you have nothing. It's not illegal in any way. The only consequence is to get fired. The players are willing to take that chance. The NFL and owners have done nothing until now....why? Because they need the players. No law is being broken. Sounds like you are mostly upset with the NFL and the owners for not doing anything about it until now. But you claim its "too complex" for others....don't make me laugh.
As mentioned I believe that this will eventually go to court. And based on the marijuana issue, I believe I know what the court will decide. You and I can debate all day but it's not going to effect the outcome much.
Two separate issues. The companies won by basing the fact that marijuana could produce less productivity and be a possible danger if employees were under the influence. That is not even close to a comparison with this situation.
If it becomes law, then I'll concede that they have no right to do it. But until then, the players have done nothing wrong, and the full onus is on the NFL and the owners to discipline them how they see fit, until a law is in place. My only point. My family owns a small business, and if an employee brings a protest to the store, I'd hope my family fires them immediately for creating a financial risk. But the NFL and the team owners have chosen not to go that route. It's on them. It's on democracy.
Two separate issues. The companies won by basing the fact that marijuana could produce less productivity and be a possible danger if employees were under the influence. That is not even close to a comparison with this situation.
Disagree, in fact I see lots of similarity. Marijuana is legal in California, yet the court has given companies ultimate power. Political protest is legal...........but IS it legal in your place of employment if your employer tells you not to do it? The court may give companies the exact same power, and I believe that they will.
I see. So it's the players' right to protest ANYTHING they see fit, correct?
Yes, as long as they are not at work.
So when people picket their work conditions they should do it where?...there is peaceful protest at job sites and has been for the entire American experiment...
The idea that kneeling is disrespectful is a joke. I took a knee before my wife when I asked her to marry me. I kneel at the coffin of a lost loved one. When I visit the cemetery I spend a lot of time kneeling at my grandparents and parents graves. I was brought up catholic and we kneel multiple time during mass. We kneel when we take confession and when we say our prayers.
Only in the Azzxwipe world of Donald Trump and his neo-nazi supporters does kneeling become disrespectful. If anyone has been following, it was a former vet that told Kap to kneel because that's what they do for their fallen to show "Respect"
Are they going to shut down the concessions and close the restroom too?...will the Dictator tell us all we "MUST" stand. Is everyone going to turn their phones off and stand? Are we all at home going to stand??? do you now???
Has anyone here ever picketed their place of employment??? Has anyone seen protests going on outside of private businesses
Ya all have forgotten what our families fought for in the those 2 world wars....we're too far removed from what they set up for us and what is now being destroyed.
Donald Trump is not king and little to nothing of what he bring to the table is worth a moments thought....
[Edited on 5/27/2018 by goldtop]
Two separate issues. The companies won by basing the fact that marijuana could produce less productivity and be a possible danger if employees were under the influence. That is not even close to a comparison with this situation.
Disagree, in fact I see lots of similarity. Marijuana is legal in California, yet the court has given companies ultimate power. Political protest is legal...........but IS it legal in your place of employment if your employer tells you not to do it? The court may give companies the exact same power, and I believe that they will.
The pot one, just like a lot of things, is complicated. I can certainly see not wanting, say, truck drivers high, or people that work for the electric utility up in a bucket around electric wires high..... there are certain jobs that are dangerous enough without adding someone being high while doing those jobs. There are also many jobs where it doesn't really matter...... like I said, more complicated than black and white.
So when people picket their work conditions they should do it where?...there is peaceful protest at job sites and has been for the entire American experiment...
The idea that kneeling is disrespectful is a joke. I took a knee before my wife when I asked her to marry me. I kneel at the coffin of a lost loved one. When I visit the cemetery I spend a lot of time kneeling at my grandparents and parents graves. I was brought up catholic and we kneel multiple time during mass. We kneel when we take confession and when we say our prayers.
Only in the Azzxwipe world of Donald Trump and his neo-nazi supporters does kneeling become disrespectful. If anyone has been following, it was a former vet that told Kap to kneel because that's what they do for their fallen to show "Respect"
Are they going to shut down the concessions and close the restroom too?...will the Dictator tell us all we "MUST" stand. Is everyone going to turn their phones off and stand? Are we all at home going to stand??? do you now???
Has anyone here ever picketed their place of employment??? Has anyone seen protests going on outside of private businesses
Ya all have forgotten what our families fought for in the those 2 world wars....we're too far removed from what they set up for us and what is now being destroyed.
Donald Trump is not king and little to nothing of what he bring to the table is worth a moments thought....
Just an FYI Ron, I've made a lot of comments here and in fact I started this thread. And I never ONCE had anything that Donald Trump has done or said in mind when discussing this issue. So to me, your post is a bit off base. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is between the owners and the players (and quite possibly the court) and it was an issue before Donald Trump ever got involved.
[Edited on 5/27/2018 by robslob]
My family owns a small business, and if an employee brings a protest to the store, I'd hope my family fires them immediately for creating a financial risk.
And if the owners start firing these guys?
Here is a very interesting spin on this from a post by a friend of mine on Facebook. I think he really hits home:
"Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does."
Player conduct is collectively bargained. The only recourse for ownership is not putting a guy on the field of play, fines, or outright release.
As this is an entertainment industry, the truest form of protest would be if players simply refused to play.
So when people picket their work conditions they should do it where?...there is peaceful protest at job sites and has been for the entire American experiment...
The idea that kneeling is disrespectful is a joke. I took a knee before my wife when I asked her to marry me. I kneel at the coffin of a lost loved one. When I visit the cemetery I spend a lot of time kneeling at my grandparents and parents graves. I was brought up catholic and we kneel multiple time during mass. We kneel when we take confession and when we say our prayers.
Only in the Azzxwipe world of Donald Trump and his neo-nazi supporters does kneeling become disrespectful. If anyone has been following, it was a former vet that told Kap to kneel because that's what they do for their fallen to show "Respect"
Are they going to shut down the concessions and close the restroom too?...will the Dictator tell us all we "MUST" stand. Is everyone going to turn their phones off and stand? Are we all at home going to stand??? do you now???
Has anyone here ever picketed their place of employment??? Has anyone seen protests going on outside of private businesses
Ya all have forgotten what our families fought for in the those 2 world wars....we're too far removed from what they set up for us and what is now being destroyed.
Donald Trump is not king and little to nothing of what he bring to the table is worth a moments thought....
Just an FYI Ron, I've made a lot of comments here and in fact I started this thread. And I never ONCE had anything that Donald Trump has done or said in mind when discussing this issue. So to me, your post is a bit off base. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is between the owners and the players (and quite possibly the court) and it was an issue before Donald Trump ever got involved.
[Edited on 5/27/2018 by robslob]
I never said you made a comment about Trump...he is the one that escalated this to the level it got to. He's the one that spun it to be about the flag and not human rights. Kneeling is a sign of respect in so many ways. If anyone goes to church and they kneel during their service I guess now that means you're disrespecting god...
The issue about talent is mute to me...he's has enough to be on a team...maybe not start but he has skills...
Protesting at work can cause anyone to lose a job but we have the right to do it...just as we have the 1a right to say what we wish...even if it shows us to be ignorant and we get back lash for it...are their limits yes and were testing them. But to "Demand" people to stand for a song is authoritarianism at its highest. Again does any one here stand at home??...are they going to close the concessions demand every stand? why is it just a demand on the players and not everyone at the stadium? Should the NFL put on the ticket that you are required as spectator to stand for the anthem. They put on the ticket that they release themselves from any legal liability from situations that happens to you at the stadium...if you read the fine print on your ticket.
It got to this point from the rhetoric from DT
[Edited on 5/27/2018 by goldtop]
Here is a very interesting spin on this from a post by a friend of mine on Facebook. I think he really hits home:
"Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does."
Your argument makes no sense. What is correct in that statement is that free speech applies to the government as to what is covered by the term free speech. If I were to call you a criminal racist, that is not covered by free speech. If I call Trump a racist or say that Congress is corrupt, that is covered by free speech. The taking of the knee is covered by the First Amendment as it is a protest against the government (in the case police departments). There is nothing in that amendment that says where and when it is applicable.
BTW, when NFL owners close concession stands when the anthem is played, I will believe that they are serious about this.
The solution to this was to revert back to the policy of 2008 and prior where the players took the field after the Anthem.
Why are the players in Baseball & Basketball not kneeling?
The solution to this was to revert back to the policy of 2008 and prior where the players took the field after the Anthem.
Why are the players in Baseball & Basketball not kneeling?
Players have knelt in the NBA. One player in MLB knelt. He was Bruce Maxwell of Oakland who came from a military family. For whatever reason, MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.
And if the owners start firing these guys?
They’d probably get picked up by another owner who has a need. This is capitalism working as intended.
Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does.
It sounds like this person is confusing the issue of what free speech covers legally and professionally. People face professional consequences for what they say all the time - people get fired for tweets, statements, or actions that can potentially reflect poorly on their employer. But they can still say it, the "right to free speech" allows people to say stuff without facing legal consequences. So the idiot Nazis that marched last year can do so legally, but their employer can fire them when they see them yelling on TV and realize their H.R. guy's haircut is a 40s throwback and not a modern hipster style.
Kap was never fired, he opted out of his own contract to become a free agent and was never re-signed by another team so I'm not sure what this person thinks Kap's potential First Amendment case would even be. No one is saying the NFL or teams can't have a policy (Yankees can't even grow beards which are still legal), people are saying that they disagree with this policy. But rules are made to be broken - a protest that follows all the rules wouldn't get much attention. However, professional sports teams invest millions of dollars and time into players, so they'd have to do something pretty egregious to face discipline or losing their job (and in some cases, not even then).
Honestly, if the kneeling was just ignored, it would all go away. It's such a misdirected protest with a good message by a dumb athlete, and even dumber people are getting mad because they don't understand the dumb athlete's worthwhile message.
MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.
I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.
Actually looking at constitutional law, the first amendment only applies to the government. A business owner, ( a private entity) has the right to implement policy and procedures, codes of conduct and behavior on and off the field. If there was a violation of constitutional law, you can bet your last buck that Kap would already have this in court suing for first amendment violation, but that isn't the case. The First Amendment doesn't give us the right of free speech to the degree most believe it does.
It sounds like this person is confusing the issue of what free speech covers legally and professionally. People face professional consequences for what they say all the time - people get fired for tweets, statements, or actions that can potentially reflect poorly on their employer. But they can still say it, the "right to free speech" allows people to say stuff without facing legal consequences. So the idiot Nazis that marched last year can do so legally, but their employer can fire them when they see them yelling on TV and realize their H.R. guy's haircut is a 40s throwback and not a modern hipster style.
Kap was never fired, he opted out of his own contract to become a free agent and was never re-signed by another team so I'm not sure what this person thinks Kap's potential First Amendment case would even be. No one is saying the NFL or teams can't have a policy (Yankees can't even grow beards which are still legal), people are saying that they disagree with this policy. But rules are made to be broken - a protest that follows all the rules wouldn't get much attention. However, professional sports teams invest millions of dollars and time into players, so they'd have to do something pretty egregious to face discipline or losing their job (and in some cases, not even then).
Honestly, if the kneeling was just ignored, it would all go away. It's such a misdirected protest with a good message by a dumb athlete, and even dumber people are getting mad because they don't understand the dumb athlete's worthwhile message.
MLB players seem to lean more to the right than in other sports.
I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.
The kneeling for the anthem has been mostly done by black players. There are not many black players in baseball.
I think it's mostly because it's not their fight. The kneeling had mostly gone away last season until Trump threw some kerosene on the issue for the sake of a few cheers from his choir. Also, the MLB is much more diverse, nationality-wise, than any of the other major sports (Puig and Tanaka aren't likely to take a knee). The NFL is the most American in that regard.
The focus has shifted from being about Black Americans taking a stand against Police Departments nationwide that choose to "Enforce the Law" as they see fit versus the politics of whether or not people have the right to protest by kneeling during the Anthem. If the original idea was to bring that plight into the public eye, then why are not Baseball and Basketball players following suit? Surely there are Black players in both sports who take this issue very seriously, very possibly because it has happened to them or someone they know personally. Either it is an issue affecting the Black community or it is not. If you wear the uniform of an NBA franchise, or you represent a MBL team and you are Black, this topic hits you. Either way, you have a huge national audience and if this issue means anything to you and you are Black....then....
This is the Rule in the NBA: "Players, coaches and trainers are to stand and line up in a dignified posture along the sidelines or on the foul line during the playing of the national anthem."
The NBA suspended Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf in 1995 for one game without pay, a loss of $31,707. Afterward, he agreed to stand -- but pray -- during the anthem.
Baseball has no rule
The NFL now has 6 rules
The kneeling for the anthem has been mostly done by black players. There are not many black players in baseball.
But there sure are in Basketball, approx 8% more. Is the NBA wrong for having a rule in place?...and then enforcing it?
Or maybe it's just an NFL thing
Either it is an issue affecting the Black community or it is not.
Dude, an entire group of people aren't bound to each others' way of protest just because of the color of their skin. There are different ways of working for change and against prejudice, and it doesn't have to enter every person's professional life. Choosing not to protest in a counter-productive way doesn't prove that other athletes don't care about the issue.
