if people are allowed to study the Quran, and can easily obtain one, some of the wrong ideas about Islam would be dispelled.
Actually, for me it was reading the Quran that made me realize what a crock Islam is. Same thing for the Bible. Contradicts itself into vapor. And it is funny, I've read more of it than most Christians I know. They just don't read anything at all, period, and pretty much accept whatever their priests tell them.
I love how it is up to anyone to decide which things in the Bible are to be taken literally, or as metaphors. Like, you aren't REALLY supposed to gouge out your eye, or chop off your right hand, that's just a metaphor, but it is REALLY TRUE that witches should all be killed. Or vice versa, if that is your interpretation.
My recommendation to Bible thumpers is always "Read it from cover to cover all by yourself, not in a study group with someone telling you what they think it means, then we'll talk." And of course they never will.
if people are allowed to study the Quran, and can easily obtain one, some of the wrong ideas about Islam would be dispelled.
Actually, for me it was reading the Quran that made me realize what a crock Islam is. Same thing for the Bible. Contradicts itself into vapor. And it is funny, I've read more of it than most Christians I know. They just don't read anything at all, period, and pretty much accept whatever their priests tell them.
I love how it is up to anyone to decide which things in the Bible are to be taken literally, or as metaphors. Like, you aren't REALLY supposed to gouge out your eye, or chop off your right hand, that's just a metaphor, but it is REALLY TRUE that witches should all be killed. Or vice versa, if that is your interpretation.
My recommendation to Bible thumpers is always "Read it from cover to cover all by yourself, not in a study group with someone telling you what they think it means, then we'll talk." And of course they never will.
Here's the thing. The Bible Thumpers are not going to kill you for ridiculing them. The Jihadists might. Hell they don't limit it to people who ridicule them. I don't think the Jews in the Kosher market ridiculed anybody. or that British sioldier who got his head cut off. Or the reporters beheaded by the Islamic State.
We've been here before, and yes, you are correct, at the present time it is the Jihadists who are chopping off heads. We've had some outbreaks of Christian-driven extremism in recent times, murder of abortion providers, Oklahoma City, and of course the Ku Klux Klan, but nothing on the scale of Islam. However, the Bible Thumpers will revert to savagery given half a chance. Witch burning, homosexual persecution, wholesale slaughter of heathens, they can't wait.
Christian terror plots all around us! 😮
Hopefully moderates like you will keep your people in check when the time comes
We've been here before, and yes, you are correct, at the present time it is the Jihadists who are chopping off heads. We've had some outbreaks of Christian-driven extremism in recent times, murder of abortion providers, Oklahoma City, and of course the Ku Klux Klan, but nothing on the scale of Islam. However, the Bible Thumpers will revert to savagery given half a chance. Witch burning, homosexual persecution, wholesale slaughter of heathens, they can't wait.
Hey, don't underestimate the Christian extremist too. We've had one right here in the USA try to chop off a head of a non-believer:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/man-charged-in-near-decapitation-that-killed-troopers-son/
STILLWATER, Okla. - Prosecutors in Oklahoma have charged a 21-year-old man with first-degree murder in the killing of a man who was nearly decapitated.
Isaiah Marin of Stillwater was charged Thursday in the attack that killed 19-year-old Jacob Andrew Crockett a day earlier. Police say Marin was arrested Wednesday afternoon after he called authorities and said he had murdered someone. They say they were able to track him down after receiving a number of phone calls from people who reported seeing a man covered in blood carrying a large knife, reports CBS affiliate KWTV.
According to the station, after his arrest, Marin informed police of the location of the crime scene. Police say in an affidavit that Crockett was located at an apartment in Stillwater. They say he had multiple stab wounds and that his head was "mostly severed" from his body.
According to the affidavit, a witness told police that Marin and Crockett previously had disagreements because Crockett allegedly practiced witchcraft and Marin "had strong Christian beliefs." Crockett was the son of an Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper.
Police say Marin admitted to fantasizing about committing multiple homicides, reports KWTV.
Marin is being held in the Payne County jail without bond. Court records don't list an attorney.
Looks like the work of a well-organized Christian terror cell. Stillwater is under siege!
Looks like the work of a well-organized Christian terror cell. Stillwater is under siege!
But on the bright side, that damn witch got what was coming to him, and Stilkwater has one less witch to worry about.
Looks like the work of a well-organized Christian terror cell. Stillwater is under siege!
Yeah really. Muslims and Christians have nothing in common. Could never happen here. Christians would never revert to barbarism, despite the Ralph Reeds. Still, if you could have heard my mainstream Lutheran friend going on yesterday about how the Pope is the Antichrist... man I couldn't even begin to engage the subject it was so downright bloodcurdling and psychotic. These guys are going to start fighting again the second the secular govt starts to wobble. Who needs witches when you've got Catholics?
Sick puppies, one and all.
Looks like the work of a well-organized Christian terror cell. Stillwater is under siege!
Yeah really. Muslims and Christians have nothing in common. Could never happen here. Christians would never revert to barbarism, despite the Ralph Reeds. Still, if you could have heard my mainstream Lutheran friend going on yesterday about how the Pope is the Antichrist... man I couldn't even begin to engage the subject it was so downright bloodcurdling and psychotic. These guys are going to start fighting again the second the secular govt starts to wobble. Who needs witches when you've got Catholics?
Sick puppies, one and all.
It's supposition that they would condone slaughter. With the radical Islamists we see it happening over and over and over again before our eyes. I certainly don't agree with Ralph Reed but have never heard him call for the death of anyone.
I certainly don't agree with Ralph Reed but have never heard him call for the death of anyone.
I don't know if he has been specific, but if the following are just metaphors you have to admit they are certainly sinister:
I want to be invisible. I do guerrilla warfare. I paint my face and travel at night. You don't know it's over until you're in a body bag. You don't know until election night.-- Ralph Reed, Norfolk Virginian-Pilot (November 9, 1991)
It's like guerrilla warfare. If you reveal your location, all it does is allow your opponent to improve his artillery bearings. It's better to move quietly, with stealth, under cover of night. You've got two choices: You can wear cammies and shimmy along on your belly, or you can put on a red coat and stand up for everyone to see. It comes down to whether you want to be the British army in the Revolutionary War or the Viet Cong. History tells us which tactic was more effective. Ralph Reed, Los Angeles Times (March 22, 1992), admitting that he wants to deceive us regarding his true aims.
Tell you what, since you actually read and think for yourself, read The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, then we can revisit this subject. I can't figure why you keep trying to assert that the cult that has been responsible for the mass murder and persecution of Jews throughout history is benign, and that it is not wired for barbarity.
I certainly don't agree with Ralph Reed but have never heard him call for the death of anyone.
I don't know if he has been specific, but if the following are just metaphors you have to admit they are certainly sinister:
I want to be invisible. I do guerrilla warfare. I paint my face and travel at night. You don't know it's over until you're in a body bag. You don't know until election night.-- Ralph Reed, Norfolk Virginian-Pilot (November 9, 1991)It's like guerrilla warfare. If you reveal your location, all it does is allow your opponent to improve his artillery bearings. It's better to move quietly, with stealth, under cover of night. You've got two choices: You can wear cammies and shimmy along on your belly, or you can put on a red coat and stand up for everyone to see. It comes down to whether you want to be the British army in the Revolutionary War or the Viet Cong. History tells us which tactic was more effective. Ralph Reed, Los Angeles Times (March 22, 1992), admitting that he wants to deceive us regarding his true aims.
Tell you what, since you actually read and think for yourself, read The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, then we can revisit this subject. I can't figure why you keep trying to assert that the cult that has been responsible for the mass murder and persecution of Jews throughout history is benign, and that it is not wired for barbarity.
I read the Handmaide's Tale. It's entertaining dystopian fiction. I have no idea what relevance it has to the present discussion. Those quotes from Ralph Reed are nasty and highly inappropriate for someone professing to be a religious leader but they are obviously metaphorical and as far as I know nobody has been killed as a result. I am not defeding this kind of Fundamentalist Christianity. I think it is noxious. It's definitelty not for me. I refuse, however, to accept that there is some sort of similarity between the Radical iIslam that is causing mass turmoil and death throughout the world and any modern form of Christianity. Believe me the dystopian future for billions is much more likely to be a horrible form of Islamic rule than Christian.
I read the Handmaide's Tale. It's entertaining dystopian fiction. I have no idea what relevance it has to the present discussion.
Now we are actually communicating. Atwood used fundamentalist Islam as her model for a radical Christian American dystopia. The point I keep hammering on is that social conditions dictate the extent to which these cults manifest their power. Islam and Christianity are identical, both hardwired for tyranny and bigotry and bloodshed. The only thing keeping Christians in check right now is a healthy rationalism and educated population, supported by a decent cash flow.
Give unlimited power back to the Christians and they will have stoning, beheading, burning, you name it, thumbscrews, iron maidens, and a neo-Inquisition to stomp on gays, witches, Jews, and people who like to listen to the blues.
I agree that an Islamic dystopia is a horrifying possibility, but it is dangerous to focus on Islam, with Christianity waiting in the wings to do the exact same thing it once did, exactly the way Islam is doing now. Religious authorities calling the shots will always be a horror show.
I read the Handmaide's Tale. It's entertaining dystopian fiction. I have no idea what relevance it has to the present discussion.
Now we are actually communicating. Atwood used fundamentalist Islam as her model for a radical Christian American dystopia. The point I keep hammering on is that social conditions dictate the extent to which these cults manifest their power. Islam and Christianity are identical, both hardwired for tyranny and bigotry and bloodshed. The only thing keeping Christians in check right now is a healthy rationalism and educated population, supported by a decent cash flow.
Give unlimited power back to the Christians and they will have stoning, beheading, burning, you name it, thumbscrews, iron maidens, and a neo-Inquisition to stomp on gays, witches, Jews, and people who like to listen to the blues.
I agree that an Islamic dystopia is a horrifying possibility, but it is dangerous to focus on Islam, with Christianity waiting in the wings to do the exact same thing it once did, exactly the way Islam is doing now. Religious authorities calling the shots will always be a horror show.
Give that power to athiests and you can have the same thing. See e.g. Communist Cuba, China, Russia. The point is that what you are describing is an aspect of human nature and nothing to do with religion in general. Most religious people and that includes Muslims are peaceful and decent. There are bad apples in every lot.
Give that power to athiests and you can have the same thing. See e.g. Communist Cuba, China, Russia. The point is that what you are describing is an aspect of human nature and nothing to do with religion in general.
Perhaps, but would you consider that the athiests you mention aren't exactly the same in that context? The regimes that ran/run those countries aren't exactly motivated by athiesm in the same way a ruling body would be motivated by its own religious spiritualism. Those regimes merely intend to replace a spiritual being with the State. No?
Human nature and religion have come to a confluence of terrible results throughout history, no shortage of examples there.
"'Respect for religion' has become a code phrase meaning 'fear of religion.' Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."
Wrong. It would be a true statement if the last 3 words were deleted. No religion or culture "deserves" disrespect. It might deserve criticism, but not disrespect. It's the disrespect towards a religion that is the root of the problem. If we learned to be respectful in our criticisms, we'd get a lot further. But blatant mockery and disrespect is the first act of aggression.
Give that power to athiests and you can have the same thing. See e.g. Communist Cuba, China, Russia. The point is that what you are describing is an aspect of human nature and nothing to do with religion in general.
Perhaps, but would you consider that the athiests you mention aren't exactly the same in that context? The regimes that ran/run those countries aren't exactly motivated by athiesm in the same way a ruling body would be motivated by its own religious spiritualism. Those regimes merely intend to replace a spiritual being with the State. No?
Human nature and religion have come to a confluence of terrible results throughout history, no shortage of examples there.
To the contrary. I would argue that in the case of totalitarian ideologies like Soviet and Chinese communism the faith in the "dialectic" is as strong or stronger than any religious person's faith in God. In fact ideologies like this are, in fact, religions except without the humanizing morality that the Western religions, at least in theory, have. Soviet styleCommunism doesn't even pretent to have that.
Those regimes merely intend to replace a spiritual being with the State. No?
Yes.
To further complicate things, the persecution and mass slaughter of the Jews under Stalin was an expression of Russian Orthodox Catholicism, despite the ostensibly atheistic pretense of Soviet Communism.
Re Chinese communism, like all revolutionary movements it was a humanistic reaction to appalling social conditions. Certainly not forgiving their awful human rights record, and their cultural genocide in Tibet. Point being, the "humanizing morality" is in their theory as well.
Those regimes merely intend to replace a spiritual being with the State. No?
Yes.
To further complicate things, the persecution and mass slaughter of the Jews under Stalin was an expression of Russian Orthodox Catholicism, despite the ostensibly atheistic pretense of Soviet Communism.
Re Chinese communism, like all revolutionary movements it was a humanistic reaction to appalling social conditions. Certainly not forgiving their awful human rights record, and their cultural genocide in Tibet. Point being, the "humanizing morality" is in their theory as well.
I would certainly not say that Chinese communism "like all revolutionary movements was a humanistic reaction to apalling social conditions." Maybe an inumanistic reaction. By the very nature of this ideology the individual means nothing. Awful human rights record? That's like saying the sun is a hot place. It minimizes the situation by a magnitude. Cultural Genocide? Awful. How about the ACTUAL murder of more than 100 million people carried out under the direction of Chairman Mao? More people have been murdered under the banner of utopian communism than anything else in human history by a LOT.
Read Fanshen, a Documentary of Revolution in a Chinese Village by William Hinton, you have zero clue what was happening to the Chinese peasantry before the revolution. These people were hungry. Hungry in a way you or I could never understand. Mao just stepped in and led something that was going to happen by itself. If it hadn't been organized it would have been chaos. I am afraid you are unable to view matters in historical context.
My recommendation to Bible thumpers is always "Read it from cover to cover all by yourself, not in a study group with someone telling you what they think it means, then we'll talk." And of course they never will.
You've missed many a Whipping Post thread over the years then. 
Read Fanshen, a Documentary of Revolution in a Chinese Village by William Hinton, you have zero clue what was happening to the Chinese peasantry before the revolution. These people were hungry. Hungry in a way you or I could never understand. Mao just stepped in and led something that was going to happen by itself. If it hadn't been organized it would have been chaos. I am afraid you are unable to view matters in historical context.
Way to justify mass murder and genocide.
Way to justify mass murder and genocide.
Nice try. Not taking the bait, but I'll respond anyway...
I was simply talking about what got the Chinese Revolution rolling. It was something that had to happen. It wasn't some academic theory implemented by ideological hotheads, it was a natural reaction to social conditions. No justification at all, just an objective statement. I pointed out that Mao stepped into the vacuum with Marxism, and fully agree that things went horribly wrong. At the start, collectivization worked well for the disenfranchised millions, however. Got food in their bellies anyway.
As long as we are pointing fingers about justifying mass murder and genocide, what is your view of the European assault on the Native Americans? If you can answer that in a manner that doesn't somehow justify it, I will be surprised.
President Obama caused a stir at the National Prayer Breakfast yesterday with this comment:
“Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ,” Mr. Obama said. “In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”
Way to justify mass murder and genocide, Barak !
President Obama caused a stir at the National Prayer Breakfast yesterday with this comment:
“Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ,” Mr. Obama said. “In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”
Way to justify mass murder and genocide, Barak !
Even taken out of context from a larger speech, this little clip is not trying to justify anything. Murder and other atrocities in the name of religion is nothing new and historically has not been limited to Islam. That is a fact.
President Obama caused a stir at the National Prayer Breakfast yesterday with this comment:
“Lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ,” Mr. Obama said. “In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”
Way to justify mass murder and genocide, Barak !
Even taken out of context from a larger speech, this little clip is not trying to justify anything. Murder and other atrocities in the name of religion is nothing new and historically has not been limited to Islam. That is a fact.
It's a bad analogy to what I said. Brer Rabbit said in responding to my comment about 100 million murders under Chinese communism that such was inevitable which is basically the apologetic communists use to justify it. If it wasn't meant that way that's how it came across. Obama is not justifying anything. He is condemning Islamic violence (though of course it's not really Islamic) but at the same time lecturing us not to get "on our high horse" because Christianity also slaughtered a lot of people which is also bad.
Far from justifying it he is saying those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. And I agree. If Richard the Lion-heart, Frederick Barbarossa and Pope Innocent came back and railed against Islamic violence I would tell them hey dudes, the crusades. If Torquemada came back and railed against Islamic violence I would say "Dude like...Inquisition?"
But these things happened between 500 and one thousand years ago. So for Obama to raise them to tell us not to get on our high horse (well not me since I'm not Christian anyway) in condemning Islamic violence today? Well not only is he a condescending school marm but he is wrong. The fact that he dredges up ancient history just shows that what is a problem in the world today is caused by Islam not any other faith at this point. What he SHOULD do if he wants to lecture anybody is tell the world of Islam that we in the West overcame our violent medieval tendencies and we expect you to do the same. But he would never. Imagine him at his Ramadan observance telling Muslims that?
And his remarks about Chrsitainity and slavery are deeply unfair given that both the abolitionist movement AND the civil rights movement were deeply stteped in Christianity (and Judaism)
But these things happened between 500 and one thousand years ago.
“In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.” << how long ago was this?
[Edited on 2/6/2015 by gondicar]
But these things happened between 500 and one thousand years ago.
“In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.” << how long ago was this?
Juxtapose that with the number of Americans alone that have died in the name of "Freedom" in the last seventy years in Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Not even close.
