Taliban take over Afghanistan: What we know and what’s next
Analysis: Defiant Biden is face of chaotic Afghan evacuation
https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-afghanistan-taliban-5abab9d1a552dc93b10a76973a8b3d25
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
On one hand, it's good to get our people out of a place we never, ever should have stuck our nose into. On the other, we've deserted people whom we emboldened to stand up to their oppressors (Taliban). The right thing to do in a wrong situation? No way that this appeases everybody. The bad to come out of this is that we may suddenly find it difficult to form allies and strategic bonds with other countries - especially in the mid east.
Many point to 911 as the impetus for our involvement. To be fair and accurate, we must look into the history that led to that event. Biden is correct when he states that we weren't (or shouldn't have been) there for "nation building", but that is precisely what countries like the United States and Great Britain have been doing for most of the 20th-21st centuries. Just look at a map of the area from say, the 1700s. Most of the countries that we know of now didn't exist.
As with virtually every war or skirmish that we've stuck our noses into, there were corporate sponsors and beneficiaries who made big money by coopting crude oil, precious metals or other resources. Were there human injustices going on in Afghanistan? You bet your sweet @$$ there was. But there are human injustices ranging from trafficking to child labor to actual slavery happening in many places that do not have valuable assets and natural resources. We do not meddle in those places.
I can't point fingers at Joe Biden and say he did the wrong thing. There are plenty of others who will do this. Fact is, there was probably never going to be a good time to pack up and go home.
Did we fail to adequately train their military (goat army?) to establish and protect boundaries? Did these people ever have an ounce of fight in them? Regardless, it's a sad state of international affairs happening there right now. This will not paint us in a favorable light with anybody. Though I don't really blame him, Biden's death knell might be already ringing loudly.
Agree, it was perhaps the right thing to do done in the wrong way. If their forces weren't able to hold their ground after 20 years of training, what can be done short of the US escalating into a war? That sounds disingenuous since we invaded 20 years ago, but no one would have tolerated an increase in force. It was either fight, stay, or pull out.
There are too many wheels in motion for there to be a good answer. All of the progress the country and its people had gained gets wiped out in a few days. I don't envy Biden's position, there's no win when a President inherits a war that both sides want to be over. This is a failure of at least 4 Presidents. It's tragic and hopefully as many people can get out of there as possible. People complain about refugees, well, they are often of our own making and we owe them.
I grew up during the Vietnam War so it is something that interest me and there are plenty of parallels so that this sure does look like a similar failure to me. We learned nothing from that disaster.
There was never going to be a painless exit plan from Afghanistan for the US. The Taliban were never really defeated and they were just bidding their time slowly expanding their territory until they controlled a large portion of the country waiting for the US to finally leave. The negotiations on their part were just stalling tactics waiting for us to finally pull the plug.
I don't fault Biden for the collapse as it was inevitable as soon as the US pulled our troops out but where he failed IMHO is not having an exit plan for the locals who supported us over the past 20 years. The US backed Afghan government was doomed the minute Trump negotiated an exit date for the US pull out which killed any chance the Taliban were going to seriously negotiate.
Biden also made a big political mistake coming out with his statement on how long it would take for the Taliban to threaten Kabul which is now haunting him and the Democrats. Biden was handed a no win turd sandwich by Trump and his predecessors but JMO but I don't think this will have a major impact on his Presidency as we are very far away form the 2024 election and the American public have a short memory. Besides it does not really impact their lives so will be long forgotten or minimized by then.
Will it impact the midterm elections? Again I am not sure it will make much of a difference as the voters who hate Biden and the Democrats will continue to hate and as long as the economy is still doing well I am not sure undecided voters will care about this issue a year from now.
Interesting article on the wealth of minerals countries will be jockeying for a piece of in the future.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/18/business/afghanistan-lithium-rare-earths-mining/index.html
They have a poor woman beaten to death by a Taliban man for being on the street without a burka. Lying in a pool of blood on CNN right now. The CNN correspondent has a black head covering and black robe on now but she reported they told her she will be whipped if she doesn't cover her face. Others said she is with the press don't do it!! She is scared though. They are firing automatic weapons in the air.
So it is doing God's will in that interpretation of Islam to beat a woman to death???? THAT IS NUTS! These people, the Taliban, want to live like it 1321 instead of 2021.
That version of Islam has to be false. If there is a heaven....to believe you can access heaven by strapping on a suicide vest or flying an airplane in a building killing scores of people is....well...INSANE!!
I'm 74 years old and gave up everything in my 60's. But I need some medical weed today.
What's disheartening is they knew this would happen once Trump "negotiated" the withdrawal, they just didn't think it would happen as quickly.
Here's a good perspective on a situation that's hard to have any perspective on.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-america-failed-in-afghanistan?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Good read, thanks for posting
As a child of the Viet Nam era and a stepfather of someone in the Army, I’m glad we’re out. We have proven time and time again we can’t create western style democracies in other complex cultures, especially with war. Plenty of blame to go around.
I remember someone (ex Marine) telling me the “Powell doctrine” - don’t start a war unless our national interest is threatened, have clear objectives, and have a good exit strategy. we didn’t have the latter 2
I think the process of leaving could have been handled better, but who knows. Biden will hear the blame for that, understandably
My heart goes out to Afghan people
What we know is that no matter how this admin points fingers or denies intel, they chose this outcome. They can say that the pressure packed first weeks of transition did not lend itself to dealing w/ what the previous admin “negotiated” They apparently had time to initiate 60 executive orders in his first 100 days 24 of which were intended to overturn Trump policies. But he couldn’t attend to this even though he was the “most” experienced in foreign policy. He should have known the Taliban would never stick to their agreement regardless of who led America at the time. A prime reason Trump had backed off on the negotiation. Yes, the Chinese bucks stop here.
I just saw an interview with Biden by George Stephanopoulos, I believe it occurred only yesterday. I wish I could find the exact version of the interview I saw, I would have posted it here, but I can't.
Anyway, Biden said something that I thought was very pertinent and very true: "The idea that we can deal with the rights of women by military force is not rational. There are injustices to women all around the world."
It's sad, and I feel for the Afghanistan women right now. But how can America make right every injustice around the globe? It's just not feasible.
The author of the New Yorker article posted above is today’s guest on NPR’s “Fresh Air” at this moment....Very enlightening discussion as to why, in Steve Coll’s opinion, we’re in the mess we’re in at present in Afghanistan.....
My own opinion is we should have left the moment Bin Laden escaped Tora Bora and never occupied this European carved out “ nation.” That said, Biden is right to get us out of there. But the plan to do so, knowing full well the Taliban would take over in very short order, is a mess...
We knew the Afghanistan leadership would cut deals with the Taliban so how we weren’t aware how quick this would happen boggles the mind...Especially since the Afghanistan gov’t and military were left completely out of the Trump administrations “negotiations” to get us out of there....
This piece aligns with my thoughts earlier in that I don't think this issue will be successfully weaponized by the GOP and impact the 2022 midterms or 2024 Presidential race.
I know it's been said by many, but I truly did feel like I was watching the fall of Saigon.
@cyclone88 I know it’s been said by none but I felt I was watching the demise of Jimmy Carter. ( helicopters, desert, failure to protect Americans )
Yes
This piece aligns with my thoughts earlier in that I don't think this issue will be successfully weaponized by the GOP and impact the 2022 midterms or 2024 Presidential race.
Wow.
This piece aligns with my thoughts earlier in that I don't think this issue will be successfully weaponized by the GOP and impact the 2022 midterms or 2024 Presidential race.
Wow.
Quote's from the article:
Given that we are in the middle of August 2021, with the next presidential election taking place in November 2024, it is difficult to see how Afghanistan will hold as a primary political force so many months into the future.
But the collapse of Afghanistan is unlikely to be a decisive political issue.
Key words are "unlikely" and "primary". May be true, depending on how this all works out. But this situation will come into view,no doubt. How it will affect the election? I am sure Harris will be the Democratic nominee and how it reflects onto her is way to far in the future to know. This is just has to play out to see how much of an impact it will be.
I thought Biden's strong suit was supposed to be foreign policy?
Not a Trump supporter by any means. But I just sit back and chuckle thinking if this whole thing went down the same way it did with him in office. This message board would be giving him a verbal lynching like one never seen before along with the liberal biased media.
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
Disbelief and betrayal: Europe reacts to Biden’s Afghanistan ‘miscalculation’
https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-reacts-bidens-afghanistan-withdrawal/
BERLIN — Until Sunday, Europe thought Joe Biden was an expert on foreign policy.
Now, the American president’s decision to allow Afghanistan to collapse into the arms of the Taliban has European officials worried he has unwittingly accelerated what his predecessor Donald Trump started: the degradation of the Western alliance and everything it is supposed to stand for in the world.
Across Europe, officials have reacted with a mix of disbelief and a sense of betrayal. Even those who cheered Biden’s election and believed he could ease the recent tensions in the transatlantic relationship said they regarded the withdrawal from Afghanistan as nothing short of a mistake of historic magnitude.
“I say this with a heavy heart and with horror over what is happening, but the early withdrawal was a serious and far-reaching miscalculation by the current administration,” said Norbert Röttgen, chairman of the German parliament’s foreign relations committee. “This does fundamental damage to the political and moral credibility of the West.”
Röttgen, a senior member of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democrats, is no flamethrower. He has known Biden for decades and was optimistic about his prospects.
While Merkel has avoided direct criticism of Biden, behind the scenes she has made it clear that she considered the hasty withdrawal a mistake.
“For those who believed in democracy and freedom, especially for women, these are bitter events,” she told a meeting with officials from her party late Monday, according to German media reports.
In the U.K., which like Germany supported the U.S. engagement in Afghanistan from the beginning, the sentiment was similar. “Afghanistan is the biggest foreign policy disaster since Suez. We need to think again about how we handle friends, who matters and how we defend our interests,” tweeted Tom Tugendhat, the Conservative chair of the U.K. parliament’s foreign affairs committee.
At a time when some European leaders, including French President Emmanuel Macron, have been pushing for the bloc to pursue a security policy less dependent on America, Afghanistan is bound to be used as evidence for why “strategic autonomy” is necessary.
“Naturally this has damaged American credibility, along with that of the intelligence services and of the military,” said Rüdiger Lentz, the former head of the Aspen Institute in Berlin.
“One can only hope that the damage to America’s foreign policy leadership can be quickly contained.”
While dismay over the course of events in Afghanistan was widespread across Europe, it is particularly pronounced in Germany. For Germans, the Afghan campaign wasn’t just about coming to an ally’s aid or “nation-building,” it was about proving, both to the world and itself, that Germany had changed.
The Afghanistan mission was the first major deployment of German troops since World War II. When then-Chancellor Gerhard Schröder asked the German parliament to approve the mission in the fall of 2001 following the September 11 terror attacks, he faced resistance from his own Social Democrats and decided to put his political survival on the line by linking the decision to a confidence vote. (Schröder would later complain to associates that U.S. President George W. Bush never appreciated the risk he had taken, which might help explain why the chancellor refused to join the U.S. war in Iraq a year later.)
Once the troops were in Afghanistan, then-Defense Minister Peter Struck urged Germans to stand behind the mission for the long-term with what has become one of the most memorable passages in a parliamentary speech in recent decades: “The security of the Federal Republic of Germany is also being defended in the Hindu Kush,” he said.
Over the years, Germany felt the effects of the Afghanistan mission in more ways than one. Though its troops were stationed in the relatively peaceful northern part of the country, nearly 60 German soldiers lost their lives there. The German army’s medal of valor, a rarely bestowed honor, has only ever been given to soldiers active in Afghanistan.
Germany also invested untold billions in Afghanistan during that period and took in thousands of refugees.
Though successive German governments remained committed to the Afghanistan operation, it was always controversial.
That tension filtered into the cultural sphere, including the 2014 film “Inbetween Worlds,” the story of a German soldier and his Afghan interpreter.
“Sometimes I ask myself,” the soldier tells the young interpreter after surviving an attack, “do we ever make a difference or is it just a fucking waste?”
Germany now has the answer.
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
This piece aligns with my thoughts earlier in that I don't think this issue will be successfully weaponized by the GOP and impact the 2022 midterms or 2024 Presidential race.
Wow.
I thought Biden's strong suit was supposed to be foreign policy?
Not a Trump supporter by any means. But I just sit back and chuckle thinking if this whole thing went down the same way it did with him in office. This message board would be giving him a verbal lynching like one never seen before along with the liberal biased media.
My response was sarcasm that anyone actually believes that article. Like you said, if the "orange guy" was in office, there would be cyber lynching here and in the press.
The single greatest threat to this Republic is our awful press, and media censorship, keeping the people divided and misinformed. Does DC run the press, or does the press run DC? Goebbels would be proud.
The NYT and CNN have both been critical of Biden. Time has been as well.
the biggest threat to our democracy IMO is a public that is not informed, doesn’t think critically. Another threat is the continued trend to see things as purely black and white, when in fact there is a ton of gray. Democracy works when people can compromise and meet in the middle. We are failing, as a nation at that
as far as Goebbels goes, look no further than the administration that coined the term “ alternative facts” and spread numerous other lies, including the “big lie”.
Back on topic, Presidents from both parties haven’t learned the lessons of Viet Nam, nor have the military planners. Afghanistan was doomed from the beginning. The country has been at war for ages and just because we’re America doesn’t mean we can fix that
The current administration, the former administration the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and all military intelligence all knew this would likely go down poorly, but I don't think any thought it would go so far south as fast as it did. The Taliban inherited a huge cache of military hardware and weaponry that far exceeds mere rifles and ammunition. The reports of Afghanis dropping to their deaths from airplanes as they took off is heartbreaking. Again, I don't mean to throw any unwarranted criticism towards Joe Biden. I do wonder how well thought out this operation was and why the decision became so urgent so quickly. The bandage has been ripped off. Hopefully the hemorrhaging will be minimal.
All that new weaponry ... I'm guessing we'll be back ... in some form to recollect or deactivate .... probably sooner than later.
This piece aligns with my thoughts earlier in that I don't think this issue will be successfully weaponized by the GOP and impact the 2022 midterms or 2024 Presidential race.
Wow.
I thought Biden's strong suit was supposed to be foreign policy?
Not a Trump supporter by any means. But I just sit back and chuckle thinking if this whole thing went down the same way it did with him in office. This message board would be giving him a verbal lynching like one never seen before along with the liberal biased media.
My response was sarcasm that anyone actually believes that article. Like you said, if the "orange guy" was in office, there would be cyber lynching here and in the press.
The single greatest threat to this Republic is our awful press, and media censorship, keeping the people divided and misinformed. Does DC run the press, or does the press run DC? Goebbels would be proud.
If you actually believe the American public is going to care about this in 2+ years you obviously have not been paying attention to how short a memory American society has these days. That and the fact that this event has little to no impact on the lives of the average American.
The midterms are more than a year away and by then this issue will be a distant memory for most Americans and the GOP will be looking for other issues to weaponize against the Democrats.
IMHO the events that Americans will care about in the midterms and 2024 Presidential election are the economy and COVID. If the economy is strong by 2024 few voters other than Trump supporting Biden haters will care about the collapse of Afganistan. And if COVID is still a major issue we have bigger problems to worry about.
You seem to think this will hurt Biden and the Dems in the upcoming elections so please tell me what the author and I got wrong in the article I posted.
This piece aligns with my thoughts earlier in that I don't think this issue will be successfully weaponized by the GOP and impact the 2022 midterms or 2024 Presidential race.
Wow.
Quote's from the article:
Given that we are in the middle of August 2021, with the next presidential election taking place in November 2024, it is difficult to see how Afghanistan will hold as a primary political force so many months into the future.
But the collapse of Afghanistan is unlikely to be a decisive political issue.
Key words are "unlikely" and "primary". May be true, depending on how this all works out. But this situation will come into view,no doubt. How it will affect the election? I am sure Harris will be the Democratic nominee and how it reflects onto her is way to far in the future to know. This is just has to play out to see how much of an impact it will be.
I thought Biden's strong suit was supposed to be foreign policy?
Not a Trump supporter by any means. But I just sit back and chuckle thinking if this whole thing went down the same way it did with him in office. This message board would be giving him a verbal lynching like one never seen before along with the liberal biased media.
Of course the author says unlikely as no one can predict the future but he makes good historical points on why he believes this event will have minimal impact on our elections.
I agree the liberal press would have been tougher on Trump just as the Conservative press is being tough on Biden now. You don't really believe we have unbiased press in this day and age do you?
IMHO, Biden's mistake was not that he pulled the troops out but rather not having an exit plan to get the Americans and native supporters out before he did.
Nothing short of a permanent US military presence was going to prevent or at least slow down the Taliban retaking the country as they already controlled most of it already outside the big cities. The local Afghan military was never going to hold off the Taliban without our support.
Trump doomed the US backed government as soon as he started negotiating with the Taliban without our puppet Afghan government involved and then set a date of May for withdrawal of US troops. After that the Taliban had no motivation to negotiate and could just bide their time as they knew we were going eventually.
Biden inherited a turd sandwich and made mistakes with the hasty withdrawal no doubt but the outcome was inevitable so the only question was when would the Taliban retake the country not if.
The midterm elections are usually a referendum on what is happening in Congress and within our borders, not typically foreign policy. I don't see people holding our exit from Afghanistan (something many conservatives wanted) over the heads of Tammy Duckworth and Patrick Leahy, et al.
Oh no - he's got MEMES!
Interesting you'd use a quote from a moderate socialist lefty like Bertrand Russell to attempt to discredit what Bill wrote (which didn't seem "emotional" at all), rather than actually respond to what he wrote.
Regarding Russell, he was a a staunch pacifist who claimed the US committed war crimes in Vietnam, and likely would have been for the US leaving Afghanistan.
Let's all remember, the issue isn't so much whether the US should have pulled out of Afghanistan (it was pre-determined), the issue is we should have had a better plan on getting our people and allies out before the city fell.
Let's all remember, the issue isn't so much whether the US should have pulled out of Afghanistan (it was pre-determined), the issue is we should have had a better plan on getting our people and allies out before the city fell.
You are right bob. This exit plan was handled well. Also the last 7 months have been a great improvement. There is no inflation, increase in food prices, southern border crisis, loss of respect on the global scene, better race relations, decrease in inner city crime, & the 3rd booster will fix covid.
Where is that pesky 'head in the sand' meme...lol!
Let's all remember, the issue isn't so much whether the US should have pulled out of Afghanistan (it was pre-determined), the issue is we should have had a better plan on getting our people and allies out before the city fell.
You are right bob. This exit plan was handled well. Also the last 7 months have been a great improvement. There is no inflation, increase in food prices, southern border crisis, loss of respect on the global scene, better race relations, decrease in inner city crime, & the 3rd booster will fix covid.
Where is that pesky 'head in the sand' meme...lol!
Memes, sarcasm, AND broad platitudes. You forgot to mention we still haven’t found Jimmy Hoffa.
Feel free to start a thread on any issues you are concerned about, there’s always a lot to unpack in regard to cause and effect (and not every issue listed is immediately solvable by any President). I happen to think we are infinitely better off than we were 7 months ago (even before the insane attempted coup carried carried out by selfish idiots with their heads in each other’s butts). I think Afghanistan would be better off had the previous President not negotiated with and capitulated to terrorists.
Let's all remember, the issue isn't so much whether the US should have pulled out of Afghanistan (it was pre-determined), the issue is we should have had a better plan on getting our people and allies out before the city fell.
You are right bob. This exit plan was handled well. Also the last 7 months have been a great improvement. There is no inflation, increase in food prices, southern border crisis, loss of respect on the global scene, better race relations, decrease in inner city crime, & the 3rd booster will fix covid.
Where is that pesky 'head in the sand' meme...lol!
Nice try at a deflection buck. You still have not responded to the topic in my posts. Why not show us how smart you are and refute what Bob and I posted and what was in the article I posted?
