what center that did nothing on other teams did kobe win a ring with? all star shaq who a ring after kobe or all star pau gasol?
I mentioned that one of the greatest centers, Shaq, needed Kobe and Wade to win championships pretty clearly. As dominant as he was, he couldn't do it without another strong scoring threat in Kobe. Without Shaq, Kobe won a championship in 2009 with Andrew Bynum at center, who went on to become a couch shortly after (Gasol was the PF). Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington peaked beyond themselves while playing next to Jordan.
My point is that SG and Forwards are typically the cornerstones of a quality basketball team. It is rare that a center is the pillar without an equally strong back court option (how many college teams have quality centers?). Bill Russell is probably the greatest player in the history of the league but he was an undersized center who averaged 15 points a game - the offense still went through his teammates first. Wilt didn't win anything until he teamed with Greer after getting TRADED to the 76ers and then got TRADED to the Lakers and teamed with West. The 1986 Houston Rockets lost 4-2 to the Celtics even though the Rockets had 2 HOF centers.
Because a lot of teams these days go small ball to score quickly in the final minutes, and centers are often FT liabilities, coaches take them in and out at the end of games in a way guys like Curry and Harden don't.
disagree with this statement: Bill Cartwright, Will Perdue, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington peaked beyond themselves while playing next to Jordan. they were there to do exactly what they did. phil has a system and he already had his 2 main guys in jordan and pippen. in l.a. he had his 2 main guys in shaq and kobe and then in kobe and gasol. the other positons are useless because phil worked in what he needed. defense guy, rebounder, guard who doesn't make mental mistakes, 3 point shooter, etc. if look at the bulls or his 2 stints with the lakers the teams are built exactly the same just with positions swapped for certain roles
also if you look bill cartwrights best years were with the knicks before ever joining the bulls when he averaged about 17ppg is you eliminate the season he played just 2 games due to a foot injury.
i'd also like to point out shaq made the nba finals in orlando and had he stayed they could have gone back to the finals again. lets not even mention though how kobe wasn't even a starter his first 2 years in the league
[Edited on 5/29/2015 by matt05]
The 2004 Finals proved that Shaq needed help. He had a good series (26.6 ppg while shooting 63%) while Kobe had a not so good finals (22 ppg while shooting 38% and 17% from three). That and they faced a really good and deep Pistons team :D.
Back to this series I'm pulling for Golden State because they are fun to watch and aren't as reliant on one person to succeed.
So,on offense,by your reasoning,I wouldn't call chandler the centerpiece on defense.Should I call Nowitzki a centerpiece on offense or a huge part of it?
On the Jason terry point I have no clue what you are talking about or the relevance to the discussion...my misunderstanding perhaps of what you're saying?
Larry Johnson was effective in ny? Yes,he hit a big shot.Was he really effective? How do you define effective on the Knicks?
Chandlers lack of effect in ny proves my point...you can have a centerpiece on defense and Tyson was that in ny and Dallas.When they won in Dallas there was team defense.(perhaps your Terry reference?)Was there team defense in ny?Were Amare and Melo helping out? Thus the difference even with a centerpiece.
Was Jordan not a centerpiece like wilt who needed Greer because he needed Pippen.
I think your logic is inconsistent and faulty as they used to say in logic or philosophy classes!
But nevertheless a fun discussion....
Call Chandler what you want, it's all hyperbole either way - you called him a "not that great center", but now he's a centerpiece? You are all over the place.
I'm just saying the defense didn't revolve around him, it was a huge effort by a lot of role players (as opposed to stars like Lebron and Wade). Jason Terry was on that Mavs team and helped stifle LeBron and Wade and come back from 0-2 (we are talking about the 2011 Mavs-Heat series, right?). Chandler's stats in NY are better, but he wasn't nearly effective. Every Knicks fan I know couldn't wait to see him leave, but that's because no one has been effective on the Knicks since Dolan took over (exaggerating, yes), which is all I meant by the LJ comment (who was more effective than Ewing in 1999, the Knicks got better when Ewing went down).
"Was Jordan not a centerpiece like wilt who needed Greer because he needed Pippen."
Ok, in a nutshell, in the post-showtime era, Jordan needed Pippen, yes, and Wennington/Perdue/Cartwright were invaluable each, but interchangeable at the Center position each season. In the days when big men ruled the most in the 60's and 70's, Wilt needed Greer to finally get past a stacked and dominant Celtics team. It still takes more than a Center to make a team, just as Dwight Howard and James Harden proved: Howard had a great game the other night, but it didn't matter because Harden had a horrible night. So in a smaller nutshell, James Harden>Dwight Howard.
My logic is pretty consistent, I've been saying the same thing over and over, and occasionally you have been agreeing with me. I'm not really getting your point at all, I think you are just being contrarian, so I'm going to move on and get back to talking about the finals.
not a big NBA fan but why are they waiting a week to start the finals..Has been very boring playoffs thus far but why wait another week to begin? people want to get on with their summer already. if the series are over start again in 2 or 3 days to maintain the interest and level of competitiveness. IMO
not a big NBA fan but why are they waiting a week to start the finals..Has been very boring playoffs thus far but why wait another week to begin? people want to get on with their summer already. if the series are over start again in 2 or 3 days to maintain the interest and level of competitiveness. IMO
Because of TV.
So,on offense,by your reasoning,I wouldn't call chandler the centerpiece on defense.Should I call Nowitzki a centerpiece on offense or a huge part of it?
On the Jason terry point I have no clue what you are talking about or the relevance to the discussion...my misunderstanding perhaps of what you're saying?
Larry Johnson was effective in ny? Yes,he hit a big shot.Was he really effective? How do you define effective on the Knicks?
Chandlers lack of effect in ny proves my point...you can have a centerpiece on defense and Tyson was that in ny and Dallas.When they won in Dallas there was team defense.(perhaps your Terry reference?)Was there team defense in ny?Were Amare and Melo helping out? Thus the difference even with a centerpiece.
Was Jordan not a centerpiece like wilt who needed Greer because he needed Pippen.
I think your logic is inconsistent and faulty as they used to say in logic or philosophy classes!
But nevertheless a fun discussion....
Call Chandler what you want, it's all hyperbole either way - you called him a "not that great center", but now he's a centerpiece? You are all over the place.
I'm just saying the defense didn't revolve around him, it was a huge effort by a lot of role players (as opposed to stars like Lebron and Wade). Jason Terry was on that Mavs team and helped stifle LeBron and Wade and come back from 0-2 (we are talking about the 2011 Mavs-Heat series, right?). Chandler's stats in NY are better, but he wasn't nearly effective. Every Knicks fan I know couldn't wait to see him leave, but that's because no one has been effective on the Knicks since Dolan took over (exaggerating, yes), which is all I meant by the LJ comment (who was more effective than Ewing in 1999, the Knicks got better when Ewing went down).
"Was Jordan not a centerpiece like wilt who needed Greer because he needed Pippen."
Ok, in a nutshell, in the post-showtime era, Jordan needed Pippen, yes, and Wennington/Perdue/Cartwright were invaluable each, but interchangeable at the Center position each season. In the days when big men ruled the most in the 60's and 70's, Wilt needed Greer to finally get past a stacked and dominant Celtics team. It still takes more than a Center to make a team, just as Dwight Howard and James Harden proved: Howard had a great game the other night, but it didn't matter because Harden had a horrible night. So in a smaller nutshell, James Harden>Dwight Howard.
My logic is pretty consistent, I've been saying the same thing over and over, and occasionally you have been agreeing with me. I'm not really getting your point at all, I think you are just being contrarian, so I'm going to move on and get back to talking about the finals.
Sorry this is upsetting.
My intent,rather than contrarian perhaps,is in having what I thought was an interesting exchange of different ways of looking at the game.
So,rather than respond,I'll simply apologize for acting in a way that upsets you.
Klay Thompson has a concussion and will not practice until released by a physician. So weird how The Splash Brothers have both taken head hits in consecutive games. Both involved Trevor Ariza of the Rockets, but both were basketball plays that were not in any way intentional.
Klay's health is all that matters, and it was a very nasty hit. It just reinforces how rough NBA ball can be............huge, athletic guys going at each other at massive speeds with no equipment to protect them. As a fan, I'm just glad the Warriors don't start the championship series until Thursday 6/4. Klay should hopefully be recovered by then. We'll obviously need him.
[Edited on 5/30/2015 by robslob]
Klay Thompson has a concussion and will not practice until released by a physician. So weird how The Splash Brothers have both taken head hits in consecutive games. Both involved Trevor Ariza of the Rockets, but both were basketball plays that were not in any way intentional.
Klay's health is all that matters, and it was a very nasty hit. It just reinforces how rough NBA ball can be............huge, athletic guys going at each other at massive speeds with no equipment to protect them. As a fan, I'm just glad the Warriors don't start the championship series until Thursday 6/4. Klay should hopefully be recovered by then. We'll obviously need him.
[Edited on 5/30/2015 by robslob]
While I'm rooting for the cavs(a desperate Knicks fan!),for a range of reasons,I really want both teams as close to 100% healthy as possible.So I am hopeful Klay,Curry,Irving and Lebron are at their best.
Well, you couldn't ask for a better Game 1. Neck and neck, with Cleveland just a half step ahead (thanks to 44 from LeBron) until they got absolutely smoked in OT. I don't think they scored until LeBron got an easy layup in the closing minute.
I really want both teams as close to 100% healthy as possible.So I am hopeful Klay,Curry,Irving and Lebron are at their best.
Hopefully Irving is able to recovery quickly. The Cavs really looked dazed and confused without him in OT.
Harden should have been MVP. i don't understand the hate. Realize Harden carried Houston the whole year. He was beat down by the end. Golden State just clogged the lane and he doesn't have a #2, much less a Splash Brother, or a Greene or...well you get the picture. Switch Curry and Harden and see how far Houston would have gotten.
I really want both teams as close to 100% healthy as possible.So I am hopeful Klay,Curry,Irving and Lebron are at their best.
Hopefully Irving is able to recovery quickly. The Cavs really looked dazed and confused without him in OT.
Irving out 3-4 months. Doesn't look good for the Cavs. LeBron needs options, it doesn't matter if he scores 44, his supporting cast needs to step up in a big way. When he went cold in OT, his team was no where.
[Edited on 6/5/2015 by porkchopbob]
Harden should have been MVP. i don't understand the hate. Realize Harden carried Houston the whole year. He was beat down by the end. Golden State just clogged the lane and he doesn't have a #2, much less a Splash Brother, or a Greene or...well you get the picture. Switch Curry and Harden and see how far Houston would have gotten.
You obviously don't live in the Bay area, then, and didn't watch Curry all season long. I agree he's got a better supporting cast than Harden does. Let's not forget something here, though: The Rockets have other guys who can play besides Harden. Patrick Beverly missed the playoffs but he was a solid point in the regular season. And look at the rest of Harden's supporting cast: Dwight Howard, Trevor Ariza, Corey Brewer, Josh Smith, Terence Jones, Jason Terry. That's not exactly a collection of garbage time guys, and Brewer and Smith REALLY came on in the playoffs and had a big hand in the Rockets knocking the Clippers out in the second round. Remember that Clippers team? The one that knocked off the World Champion San Antonio Spurs in the first round? Harden didn't beat The Clippers by himself, you know.......one player NEVER beats a team that good. Yet, despite knocking the Clippers out, the Rockets managed only ONE win against the Warriors, the series only went five games.
He may have a great supporting cast, but Curry is what makes the Warriors tick. They wouldn't have even been close to a 67-15 record without him (by the way, one of the best regular season records in history). And he's rescued them time and again in the playoffs when they looked dead in the water. How about that impossible game winning three pointer in New Orleans to win game 3 of the first round? The Warriors had NO business winning that game, they got their ass kicked throughout until Curry took over with 5 minutes left to play. N.O. wins that game, they've got their confidence.............instead of a Warriors sweep it could easily have gone six or seven.
[Edited on 6/6/2015 by robslob]
Harden should have been MVP. i don't understand the hate. Realize Harden carried Houston the whole year. He was beat down by the end. Golden State just clogged the lane and he doesn't have a #2, much less a Splash Brother, or a Greene or...well you get the picture. Switch Curry and Harden and see how far Houston would have gotten.
You obviously don't live in the Bay area, then, and didn't watch Curry all season long. I agree he's got a better supporting cast than Harden does. Let's not forget something here, though: The Rockets have other guys who can play besides Harden. Patrick Beverly missed the playoffs but he was a solid point in the regular season. And look at the rest of Harden's supporting cast: Dwight Howard, Trevor Ariza, Corey Brewer, Josh Smith, Terence Jones, Jason Terry. That's not exactly a collection of garbage time guys, and Brewer and Smith REALLY came on in the playoffs and had a big hand in the Rockets knocking the Clippers out in the second round. Remember that Clippers team? The one that knocked off the World Champion San Antonio Spurs in the first round? Harden didn't beat The Clippers by himself, you know.......one player NEVER beats a team that good. Yet, despite knocking the Clippers out, the Rockets managed only ONE win against the Warriors, the series only went five games.
He may have a great supporting cast, but Curry is what makes the Warriors tick. They wouldn't have even been close to a 67-15 record without him (by the way, one of the best regular season records in history). And he's rescued them time and again in the playoffs when they looked dead in the water. How about that impossible game winning three pointer in New Orleans to win game 3 of the first round? The Warriors had NO business winning that game, they got their ass kicked throughout until Curry took over with 5 minutes left to play. N.O. wins that game, they've got their confidence.............instead of a Warriors sweep it could easily have gone six or seven.
[Edited on 6/6/2015 by robslob]
I have to agree, Harden was a well-deserved #2 in the voting, but what Curry has done with the Warriors is pretty insane this season. Obviously great players need to be surrounded by great supporting talent (the injuries in Cleveland are stacking up for LeBron), but Curry has been Mr. Clutch all year. If Game 5 of the Western Conference Finals isn't proof that Curry is MVP over Harden, who looked like Mr Bean for most of the game, I don't know what is. Harden will still have his day, but if OKC can get their team back on track next season (I'd take Durant or Westbrook over Harden every day of the week), it's only going to get harder for Houston.
Another classic game last night, another OT. This time Curry disappeared, but GS managed to claw their way back. Cleveland has to feel good going back home with a win on the road. This is shaping up to be a great series, I wouldn't be surprised if they split the next two.
Go Cavs !!!!!
Hell of a game but I'm pulling for the Golden State Curry's.
Much depends on what LeBron gets for help -- no Irving is a biggie -- LeBron IMO is one of the greatest athletes of this-or-any era
Looked like Pro Wrasslin' to me
After Irving's injury in game one, everyone, including me, was saying that the series was over. Well, surprise, surprise. First playoff series in history to go into overtime in both of the first two games.
Curry had an off night. If he hadn't, the Warriors would be up 2-0. But give the Cavs and Matthew Delladova plenty of credit for that. Thompson was spot on, or the Cavs would have won by 10 or more in regulation. Curry gets all the publicity, but they aren't called The Splash Brothers for nothing.
It's shaping up to be a classic series, and despite being a huge Warriors fan, I'm glad. Who wants to watch a sweep and a bunch of 20 point victories?
I look for the Warriors to dig in and take game #3 in Cleveland. They're a great road team.
Nice slide tackle by Lebron awhile back. How that wasn't a foul is beyond me.
Nice slide tackle by Lebron awhile back. How that wasn't a foul is beyond me.
lebron for years has gotten away with putting his head and shoulder down and just ramming into the defender in front of him
Nice slide tackle by Lebron awhile back. How that wasn't a foul is beyond me.
lebron for years has gotten away with putting his head and shoulder down and just ramming into the defender in front of him
Agreed and that is why I don't like him but he was the defender in this situation. Came in sliding knocked the ball out and took out Curry. Reckless play IMO that could of injured Curry.
Nice slide tackle by Lebron awhile back. How that wasn't a foul is beyond me.
lebron for years has gotten away with putting his head and shoulder down and just ramming into the defender in front of him
Agreed and that is why I don't like him but he was the defender in this situation. Came in sliding knocked the ball out and took out Curry. Reckless play IMO that could of injured Curry.
really though either team could win and i'd be fine. the cavs and warriors don't make the finals too often so nice to see a team that doesn't get here all the time take home a ring. kevin love and kyrie irving will both still get rings if the cavs win
They could blow the whistle anytime and there would be some kind of flagrant altercation taking place, so how do they identify a foul in this series? The refs must carry preset timers in their pockets and alternate blowing their whistles when their timer goes off.
This series begs the question, if they gave pro wrasslers a ball would it increase their tv ratings?
Check in from the Bay area by a huge Warriors fan.
I could not be more impressed with Cleveland's will to win. It's not just LeBron.........their defense is absolutely smothering us! Passes that the Warriors routinely made all through the regular season and playoffs are now regularly being deflected. Cleveland may not have a bunch of great basketball players left with Love and Irving out. What they DO have is a bunch of athletes who are supremely conditioned and who are leaving it out on the floor. As an ex-basketball player I know that defense is all about conditioning, heart and desire.
I just read that Matthew Dellavedova was taken to the hospital by ambulance last night after the game to get an IV, he had severe cramps. I watched the guy on TV a LOT during his college games because he played at St. Mary's in Moraga, a suburb of Oakland. He wasn't drafted, and to be honest I never thought in my wildest dreams that he would be an NBA player. But you can't measure heart, can you? Add the fact that he had 20 points last night and made some unbelievable shots. I'm stunned, and so are the Warriors.
Don't count us out just yet. The Memphis series in the second round went exactly like this one: We won game one at home, then Memphis took game two in Oakland and game three in Memphis. The Warriors then won three straight to take the series. But with Curry being double-teamed ALL the time, someone else is going to have to step up offensively, and not just Klay Thompson. Harrison Barnes and Draymond Green are bricklayers on offense right now and that needs to change. And what in the hell is Green doing going straight up to the hoop with a 7 footer named Mosgov right in his face? Green will lose that battle every time. If the shot's not there, pass the ball! We need to go to Andre Igoudala and David Lee more.............Lee got in for the first time in this series last night and affected the game. Look for more minutes from him tomorrow night. Andrew Bogut needs to be the force in the lane that he has been all year, and switch more often to help guard LeBron when LeBron drives to the hoop. No one else on the Warriors has the ability to affect James' shot on a drive to the hoop. Bogut does. I think getting him more involved offensively as a passer would help immensely as well.
Pundits were saying Golden State's shot would eventually abandon them, that jump shooting teams don't go the distance. I still think they can win it, but last night, at least, that was true. The Warriors went cold from the floor and it looked like every time Green or Ezeli went up for a hoop under the rim they were trying to draw a foul rather than going strong for a bucket. Once their shot came back, Curry & co. were nearly unstoppable, but it seemed like it was a little too late - they ran out of time.
And who knew Cleveland had this left in them? LeBron turned it on the past two games after going cold when it mattered in OT in game 1. Every great team needs a Dellavedova who can scramble for those loose balls (my Milwaukee Bucks' early 2000s run was over when they traded away Scott Williams and got Anthony Mason - it wasn't because they broke up the "Big 3" of Allen, Bid Dawg, and Cassell). The Cavs put a blanket on the perimeter, but they followed it up by keeping the Warriors' big guys from getting easy baskets under the rim to keep them in it.
This is shaping up to be an excellent series. Should be interesting to see how the Warriors respond - they really need to win the next one.
I'm a Cav's fan but so far this has been a very entertaining series! It will go to 7 games and I am sure they all will be a barn burner and get my BP up in overdrive!
Really dont have a vested interest in either team. I guess all the Heat fans are haters now, huh?!?! 😛 😛 😛 .
Lebron is playing great over the last three games. He has to being without Kyrie and Love. Probably one of the best performances in three games during a final series. Cant get much better than that. Not really a fan of his , but I do respect what he is doing. I think It will go 7 games.
Who do I want to win? I like Steph Curry, but it would be something else if LeBron keeps playing this way and wills them to win with them being down two very important players.
I wonder if GS would be where they are if Jackson was still coaching? I guess Steve made the right choice by not going to the Knicks. Dodged a bullet !!
[Edited on 6/11/2015 by jszfunk]
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
Gonna be a war tonight!
as great as this series was the cavs just look exhausted. maybe an extra days rest will help before next game but their short bench looks like its caught up to them
The Warriors turned it on last night, after 3 close games this is the first route of this series. The Warriors got their shot back and were able to shut down pretty much everyone on the Cavs except Mosgov who couldn't carry them all on his back. By the 4th quarter it looked like the Cavs ran out of steam. This is starting to look like a heavyweight fight - a true back and forth.
