The Hall has some unusual parameters that make understanding their picks tricky. "Influence" and "Innovation" are two of those, and I think of the Sex Pistols in that regard. The Pistols only had one album and a year of touring, really, but they are seen as the band who launched punk rock, and who influenced a lot of musicians, so they got in.

It may be that there are rappers who were the equivalent.

So to sum it up. If it is a rapper that Marley says should be in then it is OK and if Marley doesn't like them then no.

Just write that, Marley.

We won't use sales at all. How were BIG's tour sales?

if we don't use sales for many of the rappers then they would not exist. they don't tour.

WTF do you want to use? No sales debate, no tour debate - what are you judging by?

Oh I forgot - The Marley Meter. LOL

Still too easy Marley . Thanks for stopping by.

50 Cent got shot and lived to spend his money. That has to be worth some consideration by the HOF. Survival.

This is just ridiculous. I’m not sure your actually listen to or like rap. Can we start with that? Do you? Because the answer to that question would help frame this discussion.

Your paradigm seems out of whack. I’m not sure of any other human being who would put Big and 50 in the same sentence (to just touch on the oddities of your “argument”).

Why would they not be in the same sentence? 50 Cent has had more success in every possible way.

That is the funny part is that people such as Marley believe that I know nothing about rap.

First I used to have to sell it and promote it. I made my living trying to get stores to purchase albums. There are thousands of them as the cost involved is so minimal.

Second I guarantee that I hear as much rap as anyone of this board and I would bet I top the list. My son is high level basketball and currently highly ranked and scouted. All of my son's friends are black. My van is full of kids going to and from gyms and tournaments constantly. 10 hour drives with tunes cranking.

I let them play whatever they like. Don't want to be a control freak like my Dad was. I also turn them on to some of the early rap stuff as the artists don't keep going like classic rock bands did. Kids want what is new.

We currently have two boys living with us from the Bahamas that are also high level ball players. Add them to my son and that is a freaking Rap Brady Bunch shit going on at my place.

So at the very minimum I have 3 kids aged 17-18 either at home, van or a gym and they play rap constantly. Usually add a few friends so the music is louder. Add my house is constantly full of 7 foot tall kids that eat non-stop.

Do I hear and know rap music? Only a few hours or more a day - seven days a week.

Have I heard it since pretty much the beginning - yes. It was my job. Not every album/artist that had to be sold was some great rock band. Had to sell lots of artists that I didn't like.

So while some assume incorrectly, I do know rap. Some I like and some I don't. But to think I don't know the music is just another fact Marley got wrong despite what he may believe. Kids aging all through rap.

Do I think that every major artist deserves HOF status? No. Am I bent out of shape over anyone they let in? No.

Every rapper coming up is bigger than he was.

Let me know when they pass on one. PC world - Will not happen now.

Opinions differ.

I never said once that I don't like rap, or hear rap or know nothing about it. I wish I didn't know a 1/10th of what I do about rap.

I have taught one of the kids from the Bahamas to play some drums so we jam.

Let's talk next year. They will pass on metal, prog, old school punk and any other band that didn't share their coke and women. But that rapper is getting in.

All those that hear/listen to 30+ hours of loud rap per week, hands up please? (Sound of crickets)

Thought so. I just keep telling myself........they move out one day.

The Hall has some unusual parameters that make understanding their picks tricky. "Influence" and "Innovation" are two of those, and I think of the Sex Pistols in that regard. The Pistols only had one album and a year of touring, really, but they are seen as the band who launched punk rock, and who influenced a lot of musicians, so they got in.

It may be that there are rappers who were the equivalent.

Jim, stop being reasonable or I'll call the internet police. (And in broad terms, this is pretty close to what's happened. These guys didn't invent a genre or style, but they're considered key figures in how it evolved and its rise in the public consciousness, and they're both still very respected and are cultural icons for that reason.) Somehow the guy who admits he doesn't know much about hip hop figured this out, but CanadianMule, who says he's an expert, is confounded by it.

So to sum it up. If it is a rapper that Marley says should be in then it is OK and if Marley doesn't like them then no.

I haven't said who should get in or who shouldn't. I've made some guesses about who will probably get in - and, OK, that Hammer and Vanilla Ice probably won't - but I don't have that kind of emotional investment in what happens. The other thing I've said is that your rules and metrics don't makes sense.But of course it's opinions. By precedent, and maybe by definition, the Hall of Fame project is completely arbitrary. Name anything close to a possible rule and you'll find tons of inductees who don't meet it.

That is the funny part is that people such as Marley believe that I know nothing about rap.

You keep getting basic facts about it wrong, so what am I supposed to think? You know some guys' names and sales figures, but don't seem to have any understanding about the music or what the facts mean when you do get them correct. You know some rappers who got big and made you angry, but that's not exactly expertise. I'm nowhere near an expert either, but at least I'm not angrily trying to turn a taste preference into a rule. For example if I said the Hall shouldn't induct Creed and Nickelback in the next few years because, even though they were both extremely commercially successful, their music is absolutely awful, that's my opinion and I wouldn't have to concoct some rule to try to prove the institution loses all credibility if they get in. (It has no credibility, or the closest thing to none.) Debating taste isn't very interesting but at least it's honest if you acknowledge it for what it is. And I don't care if those bands do get inducted, but I do think they're terrible.

Alex Lifeson sums up it all up pretty much. I agree!

You tossed out a couple of facts in all this. They were wrong.

Then question what I know and then whether I am capable of understanding what I get right. You are funny.

So what gets BIG in? You don't want sales. We can't include touring. So is it street cred? Lots of people have that. Really has nothing to do with the music industry. But even including that, all the rappers that are coming up over the next 20+ years all have it too.

Not a single reason here unless you included "you don't know rap" as a reason to induct him.

Talk to me next week when they pass on a rapper. I hope I am wrong.

Maybe they should Induct By Genre at this point. And just let some artist from each one in.

You tossed out a couple of facts in all this. They were wrong.

Then question what I know and then whether I am capable of understanding what I get right. You are funny.

So what gets BIG in? You don't want sales. We can't include touring. So is it street cred? Lots of people have that. Really has nothing to do with the music industry. But even including that, all the rappers that are coming up over the next 20+ years all have it too.

Not a single reason here unless you included "you don't know rap" as a reason to induct him.

Talk to me next week when they pass on a rapper. I hope I am wrong.

Maybe they should Induct By Genre at this point. And just let some artist from each one in.

James..check your pm's. Thanks

I was listening to a podcast awhile back, and I think Dennis DeYoung was being interviewed and he was asked about the RNRHOF and he mentioned that it should be just called the Music Hall Of Fame to include all genres.

So what gets BIG in?

What got him in, more or less, is this: he was one of the biggest stars in the genre during his lifetime and helped expand the popularity of hip hop, he's still one of its most respected artists long after he died, and in the years since he died he's become a cultural icon.

Not a single reason here unless you included "you don't know rap" as a reason to induct him.

Because I haven't been arguing about who belongs and who doesn't. I think it's a waste of time, and it's not something I have an emotional investment in. What I have said is that your arguments against him - like the argument that he represents a lowering of standards for hip hop, or that he's just some guy who sold a million singles in the 90's, or that he would be basically forgotten if not for the way he died - are wrong on their face.

That's part of the "intangible" nature of the HOF. Qualities such as "innovative" or "influential" are hard to measure, yet we know that they do have significance.

Awards in any medium face some of the same challenge, of course.

The Hall has some unusual parameters that make understanding their picks tricky. "Influence" and "Innovation" are two of those, and I think of the Sex Pistols in that regard. The Pistols only had one album and a year of touring, really, but they are seen as the band who launched punk rock, and who influenced a lot of musicians, so they got in.

It may be that there are rappers who were the equivalent.

Last time I listened to that Sex Pistols album I thought it sounded similar to an Aerosmith record.

Is it just me or has the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame always been a Pop Music Hall of Fame. As far as I'm concerned all forms of Pop music should be eligible.

I was listening to a podcast awhile back, and I think Dennis DeYoung was being interviewed and he was asked about the RNRHOF and he mentioned that it should be just called the Music Hall Of Fame to include all genres.

That would make more sense from a certain point of view. They won't do it because there are tons of other musical halls of fame and it would probably be bad for marketing, and they would completely have to redo everything and induct thousands of other artists and build a bunch of bigger buildings. But it would end some of these debates. Although now I'm wondering if he meant all popular music or if he thought they should start adding classical composers, too.

That's part of the "intangible" nature of the HOF. Qualities such as "innovative" or "influential" are hard to measure, yet we know that they do have significance.

Awards in any medium face some of the same challenge, of course.

And it's part of the challenge in evaluating any kind of art. It's also why trying to measure these things in numbers is ultimately impossible. The bigger reason is that almost everything about enjoying art is intangible when you get down to it. There's kind of an extra sub-argument that giving out critical awards based on commercial success is redundant and misses the point because commercial success is its own reward, and the point of any kind of artistic award is that it departs from the commercial in some way. Otherwise why bother having awards? Things like album sales and tour grosses are measured by Billboard or listed on Wikipedia, and you don't need awards to see who sold the most or grossed the most.

You guys have impressive stamina...and too much free time 😉 😛

What got him in, more or less, is this: he was one of the biggest stars in the genre during his lifetime and helped expand the popularity of hip hop, he's still one of its most respected artists long after he died, and in the years since he died he's become a cultural icon.
quote:

And yet I was able to show easily how many pass his popularity (I know sales mean nothing, right?), he made an album (didn't even really put it together) and he is now an icon? He got shot. Now base his popularity and influence without the attachment to Tupac - he is a guy who got shot. He and many others will get in based on race and PC society.

Biggest star on the genre? And yet sales do not back that up. During his lifetime? He made one album. Helped expand it? Load of crap - it would be exactly what it is if he had never been born. Still respected by who?

The actual facts bury any reason that you have. They will all gain entry if this guy did.

Because I haven't been arguing about who belongs and who doesn't. I think it's a waste of time, and it's not something I have an emotional investment in.

Ummmmm ok. Then why continue wasting your time? Still that desperate to try and prove me wrong on something. Well just saying "you are wrong" doesn't work for you any better now than it did before.

Keep trying. Your "because I said so" side of the debate is comical.

It amazes me on the number of PMs I got about you. You seem to have turned off quite a few here over the years. Who knows maybe both of us get shot and Inducted as rappers?

I can't believe the Hall hasn't read this thread and changed the way they do EVERYTHING! What could they possibly be thinking, what with all this knowledge here being bandied about??

It amazes me on the number of PMs I got about you.

PMs? That's nothing. I'm getting letters, telegrams, faxes, telegraphs and homing pigeons about you. Hundreds of people, maybe thousands, all of them telling me how wrong you are and how they agree with me. This is definitely true. Stop laughing.

I'll admit that as a Giants fan, I have mixed feelings about Eli Manning getting in. Getting 2 Super Bowl MVPs is an impressive feat, but...

I'll admit that as a Giants fan, I have mixed feelings about Eli Manning getting in. Getting 2 Super Bowl MVPs is an impressive feat, but...

Yeah..they were talking about that here in Indy the other day on local radio sports show.

You guys have impressive stamina...and too much free time 😉 😛

No kidding! Wildly entertaining though.

😮

It amazes me on the number of PMs I got about you.

PMs? That's nothing. I'm getting letters, telegrams, faxes, telegraphs and homing pigeons about you. Hundreds of people, maybe thousands, all of them telling me how wrong you are and how they agree with me. This is definitely true. Stop laughing.

People must love/hate me to go to all that trouble. Touched - No F'N Smoke Signals?

The PMs I get are just people saying that they can't stand you. Never have. I never paid much attention one way or the other as I never saw much value or entertainment. While you seem drawn to mine. As usual, you added nothing of substance to alter my opinion. But do feel welcome to keep trying.

Myself - I just stated an opinion. Hall put itself in a corner by allowing him entry. Some don't like it which is cool. No worries - he is in. Tupac was a HOFer. This guy just got shot. Every rapper coming up over the next 10+ years had careers that make BIG's absolutely pale in comparison. And it will lean heavily West Syde.

Well we got a dozen posts on the forum this week which must be a record of late.

Hey Dino - Love The Odd Surprise Appearance - I used to get all sorts of West side love back in those trading days. None of it rap mind you. But it all kicked ass.

You guys have impressive stamina...and too much free time 😉 😛

In between typing up Jack White labels for my CDs. Leaves lots of spare time. LOL

Hey Dino - Love The Odd Surprise Appearance - I used to get all sorts of West side love back in those trading days. None of it rap mind you. But it all kicked ass

Yea, I meant to include a Biggie show in one of those packages! Sorry!

Hey Dino - Love The Odd Surprise Appearance - I used to get all sorts of West side love back in those trading days. None of it rap mind you. But it all kicked ass

Yea, I meant to include a Biggie show in one of those packages! Sorry!

So it is your fault that I don't know anything. Blaming West Syde

Someday I will post my Snoop Dogg stories. Rivals meeting Peter Tosh and Willie Nelson. Smoking my way through music Elite. Snoop accused us of hiding Canadian Bud from him during his youth. Canada's Full Of All You Fuc*ed Up White Motherf*ckers who all smoke like Willie. You sure Willie's not Canadian?". LOL

Snoop makes a killing. Almost no production costs, small entourage and packs places. Learned how to make money from the rock guys. Tour and sell merchandise.

Snoop is a HOFer. It should be the elite.

It amazes me on the number of PMs I got about you. You seem to have turned off quite a few here over the years.

This is a joke right ? , if not how sad .

 

Hey folks!Lets just celebrate some rock n roll!!!

Encore