@robertdee My algebraic (?) logic is that Heritage is to Gibson as G&L is to Fender.
Both Heritage and G&L basically bought the real estate, the building and even the shop tools of the former manufacturer and resumed production. Both new companies did make slight cosmetic alterations, especially the headstocks. Both also make fine musical instruments that (at least) match the quality of the former tenant.
But both Fender and Gibson have a very strong name identification with players. It's like that Coke analogy that I used earlier - another bottler could steal the formula and make the exact soft drink, but it just wouldn't be the same to loyal Coke drinkers. I own a G&L and it is a great guitar. I've had ideas of maybe buying a Heritage ... but something in my mind keeps telling me, "it ain't a Gibson!".
I think I've seen several artists playing Heritage guitars. Seems like the last Steely Dan show that I saw, Jon Herrington was playing a Heritage ... 335-looking guitar. The best advertising a guitar company can get is for a real guitar hero to be seen playing one of its instruments. I've never played a Heritage but by all accounts they're on par with Gibson.
@jszfunk I know that rig! I saw that guitarists once and the drums and bass drowned him out. Hard to hear his solos.
No just joking. With that much fire power he'll crack the walls and break the plumbing!!
@rusty I've heard good things about Heritage guitars. They have some new ones at the big music store here. Sunburst Les Paul style looks just like a LP with the body but they made the headstock distinctly different than Gibson. So when I saw one as my eyes glanced at the neck it was a quick giveaway. It is NOT a Gibson. They probably keeps them from being sued. Maybe Gibson has a steak in this?
I read Gibson lost their suit against Dean guitars.
The Heritage LP H-150 standard headstock is different and also the shape of the horn on the cutaway. The horn is a bit more rounded and smaller on the Heritage to my eyes.
I was looking at new prices on ebay for the H-150 Les Paul models and they seem comparable to new Les Paul's. The LP standards prices for both companies are around $2400 new. Used Heritage can be had for $3-500 less than a Gibson from what I see on reverb and eBay.
Never played one but they get good reviews.
Apparently, like Gibson (Epiphone) and Fender (Squire) Heritage has an "import line" called Prestige.
https://www.prestigeguitars.com/
When I said that Heritages could be bought cheaper used - I based this on a listing I saw for what turned out to be a Prestige guitar. Prestige - "built in 3 steps between Canada and South Korea. The initial phase is carried out in Vancouver, BC, middle phase at our partner facility in South Korea, and final phase back out our shop in Vancouver. ..."
Even Paul Reed Smith has an import line. Seems like all the big companies are trying to compete with the cheap imports and knock-offs. Kinda like the big rock bands that are charging mega-bucks in an effort to compete with scalpers! 😉
@rusty Yes Jack Pearson has good things to say about G & L. I think the deal here was Leo Fender and his partner George Fullerton sold Fender Music Instrument Corporation to, was it Columbia Broadcasting System, and the two men then began a new company (G)eorge Fullerton and (L)eo Fender Inc.
Leo Fender was also involved with launching Music Man guitars and basses but Ernie Ball bought him out.
Here is Jack Pearson on a George and Leo Strat type and Dickey with his old 1956 Fender Stratocaster hardtail.
Paul Reed Smith standard gets a top review. Tauted as a workhorse guitar for the working player who needs to cover a lot of music genres on the same guitar.
I remember when this guitar was launched in the mid 1980's, it was also advertised for the working player who covers a lot of ground on each show and instead of needing to change from say a Les Paul to a Strat during a genre and tone change, you can do away with that and just use your new Paul Reed Smith Standard on everything and made adjustments with your tone controls.
https://www.guitarworld.com/reviews/prs-se-standard-24-08-review
Apparently, like Gibson (Epiphone) and Fender (Squire) Heritage has an "import line" called Prestige.
https://www.prestigeguitars.com/
When I said that Heritages could be bought cheaper used - I based this on a listing I saw for what turned out to be a Prestige guitar. Prestige - "built in 3 steps between Canada and South Korea. The initial phase is carried out in Vancouver, BC, middle phase at our partner facility in South Korea, and final phase back out our shop in Vancouver. ..."
Even Paul Reed Smith has an import line. Seems like all the big companies are trying to compete with the cheap imports and knock-offs. Kinda like the big rock bands that are charging mega-bucks in an effort to compete with scalpers! 😉
Makes sense Rusty that they would make a less expensive import model like Gibson and Fender. Not everyone can spring for a $2.4k guitar
Would love to try both someday to see the differences
Fender Twin Reverb Neo
https://killerguitarrigs.com/fender-65-twin-reverb-neo-review/
How to use a Fender Twin Reverb
https://www.fuelrocks.com/how-to-use-a-fender-twin-reverb-amp/
More Twin Reverb
Heritage H-535 review which is their take on a Gibson ES-335. Nice looking guitar with Seymour Duncan buckers
https://guitar.com/review/electric-guitar/heritage-standard-collection-h-535-review/
@bill_graham I imagine the name Heritage was selected as an unofficial nexus to Gibson.
With that name and manufacturing location it seems to be the case.
There is no chance they will ever displace Gibson in sales like Taylor did to Martin in the acoustic market, but I see them growing over the coming years.
It is interesting than many smaller guitar companies rather than develop their own unique look and style, want to make guitars with such obvious body styles as Gibson and Fender.
Paul Reed Smith avoided that for the most part. PRS's John Mayer signature guitars have the distinctive PRS neck, headstock and inlay designs but the body looks exactly like a Strat to me.
Maybe Fender hasn't moved to sue because of John Mayer's long relationship with Fender and they hope to get him back someday.
I remember seeing the Derek Trucks Band when Derek had a deal with Washburn and indeed Derek played a Washburn more that night than an SG but when that deal ended, Derek was back using ONLY an SG.
Mayer does play an ES-335 Gibson on a few songs but after he left Fender with much fanfare, his PBS model really surprised me. I haven't seen one in person but on videos the body looks exactly like a Fender Stratocaster to me.
@robertdee Here's a comparison article:
https://guitarspace.org/electric-guitars/prs-silver-sky-vs-strat/
A lot of those Strat-shaped guitars vary -if only very slightly on contour and pickguard shape. Having said that, the Mayer PRS most certainly looks a lot like a Strat from the neck down!
@rusty Well it seems the John Mayer signature was well thought out and designed by Paul Reed Smith. And certain improvements were incorporated over the John Mayer signature Fender Stratocaster which it says was largely based on how Steve Ray Vaughn's main Strat was set up.
But as the article points out a Fender Stratocaster is a vast instrument with dozens of modifications and variations over the years. You can buy Strats new from the factory now with pickups other than single coil. And many people who use a Strat part time and other guitars the rest of the time or usually just play a Strat made their own modifications.
Strats were originally designed for western swing and Ventures/ Dick Dale/Shadows type rock and roll were finger vibrato and string bending isn't used. But like with the Gretsch guitars back then the whammy bar was used to bend a note or put a touch of vibrato on the end of a passage but most of those players were like T. Bone Walker and jazz players, little if any finger vibrato.
Here is a Strat Jimmy Herring ordered from the Fender custom shop with only two pickups, both Humbuckers.
No Bassman???Five iconic amps that define our music
Apparently, like Gibson (Epiphone) and Fender (Squire) Heritage has an "import line" called Prestige.
https://www.prestigeguitars.com/
When I said that Heritages could be bought cheaper used - I based this on a listing I saw for what turned out to be a Prestige guitar. Prestige - "built in 3 steps between Canada and South Korea. The initial phase is carried out in Vancouver, BC, middle phase at our partner facility in South Korea, and final phase back out our shop in Vancouver. ..."
Even Paul Reed Smith has an import line. Seems like all the big companies are trying to compete with the cheap imports and knock-offs. Kinda like the big rock bands that are charging mega-bucks in an effort to compete with scalpers! 😉
Yikes!! I thought the Prestige line would be more in line with Epi and Squire. Thanks for the heads up though. Did not know Heritage had a "sister" company like this.
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
Getting the most out of a Fender Twin. A monster of an amp. I got to wank through a friend's once and they are deafening loud with all four power tubes installed.
Even with an overdrive pedal pushing the front end it was hard to get the amp to start to breakup at reasonable volumes. Never got to try one with two power tubes pulled.
Silver face versions of these vintage monsters can be had for less $$$ than a Deluxe Reverb at times as nobody can deal with the volume or weight now that there are decent P.A.'s in most clubs and venues
https://www.premierguitar.com/diy/silver-black/classic-fender-twin
Why Eric Clapton stopped playing Gibson's
Fender Deluxe Reverb
https://www.fuelrocks.com/the-perfect-guitar-to-pair-with-your-fender-deluxe-reverb/
PRS sub $1000 guitar review
Single pickup vintage SG's
https://www.premierguitar.com/pro-advice/vintage-vault/double-header-single-pickup-gibsons
@bill_graham Once I saw an interview with Clapton and he said it was because of Jimi Hendrix and Hank Marvin. But I have never seen Clapton use or even have a whammy bar on his Stratocasters.
As a sidebar, Clapton then said he still uses a 335 on certain blues songs and indeed he does or did.
No pick either this time.
Another reason that a lot of players moved from Les Pauls to Strat's is the sheer weight of a Les Paul. A typical, "real' Les Paul Standard weighs in at between 9 - 9.5 lbs. Maybe not body-builder heft, but enough to wear you out while standing for 2 - 3 hours. Especially if you're an old man! Strat's typically weigh 2 - 3 lbs less and are more forgiving over a night of jamming. 😉
Another reason that a lot of players moved from Les Pauls to Strat's is the sheer weight of a Les Paul. A typical, "real' Les Paul Standard weighs in at between 9 - 9.5 lbs. Maybe not body-builder heft, but enough to wear you out while standing for 2 - 3 hours. Especially if you're an old man! Strat's typically weigh 2 - 3 lbs less and are more forgiving over a night of jamming. 😉
I heard that as well Rusty. That is one of the reasons Gibson was making chambered and/ or weight relief Les Paul's.
https://gearaficionado.com/blog/les-paul-solid-vs-chambered-vs-weight-relieved/
http://www.gibsontraditional.com/body-construction/
My 2000 Les Paul Standard weighs 9.4lbs on our digital scale at home. Doesn't seem heavy to me but then again I am not playing it for 2hrs on stage. I thought it had no weight relief but based on the articles I linked maybe it does have traditional relief?
From what I have read Gibson uses the lightest Mahogany bodies and maple tops for the custom shop Les Paul's these days.
@bill_graham Well often you hear a hot Stratocaster with stronger pickups you spec and other mods to the guitar or a good Paul Reed Smith, Ibanez, G & L , Music Man or even an SG is better all the way around than a Les Paul for a working musician on stage most nights for two or three sets and the weight is one reason.
I have an old Strat with a Humbucker in the bridge position someone routed out and installed and it does sound real fine especially on slow blues. And I have an SG with two Humbuckers. I've had Les Pauls plugged into my Fender amp a couple of friends brought over and Bill you know what I mean. As good as a hot Strat or SG or Ibanez etc can sound, a Paul Reed Smith I've tried at the music store here, to me they fail to sound exactly like a Les Paul.
Jack Pearson never claimed his G and L he used in the Allman Brothers sounded better or just like a Les Paul. He always said he liked it better than a Les Paul especially late into the show.
Dickey said it. It's the wood. And the old Les Pauls from the late 1950's give the guitar that sound and tone we all love. The Wood and it being very aged.
Dickey quit playing his Les Pauls in 1994 because he was mad a Gibson for ignoring him. I'm not entirely sure how they were ignoring him. Probably he was getting skipped for a Les Paul signature model. But that is what Dickey said in two interviews I saw. Mad at Gibson for ignoring him.
Dickey tried Paul Reed Smith after he quit the Les Paul and I thought he sounded good but the tone was somewhat different. A year later he was back with a Gibson but an ES-335 dot neck. Then he took an old 1956 Fender Stratocaster hardtail he had for occasional rhythm guitar in the studio and a yellow Stratocaster he picked up and had a hot rail pickup put in the neck position and the tone knob closest to the strings removed and played Strats the last half of the 1990's. Gibson did come out with two custom Les Paul Dickey Betts signature models, gold top and red top, in 2001 and 2 and Dickey resumed being a Les Paul player for the most part. He stayed with the Stratocasters for slide and when he played "Nobody Left To Run With" which gave him more of a Bo Diddley tone.
I especially like this Blue Sky solo on his ES-335 dot neck in 1995 while Dickey was mad a Gibson Les Pauls.
Those chambered and routed models are fodder for the die-hard Les Paul snobs! For them, it's the thickness and density of the wood that creates that classic Gibson Les Paul sound! To borrow a phrase from a now departed CEO that I once worked for, "they're pickin' pepper outta $hit!"Another reason that a lot of players moved from Les Pauls to Strat's is the sheer weight of a Les Paul. A typical, "real' Les Paul Standard weighs in at between 9 - 9.5 lbs. Maybe not body-builder heft, but enough to wear you out while standing for 2 - 3 hours. Especially if you're an old man! Strat's typically weigh 2 - 3 lbs less and are more forgiving over a night of jamming. 😉
I heard that as well Rusty. That is one of the reasons Gibson was making chambered and/ or weight relief Les Paul's.
https://gearaficionado.com/blog/les-paul-solid-vs-chambered-vs-weight-relieved/
http://www.gibsontraditional.com/body-construction/
My 2000 Les Paul Standard weighs 9.4lbs on our digital scale at home. Doesn't seem heavy to me but then again I am not playing it for 2hrs on stage. I thought it had no weight relief but based on the articles I linked maybe it does have traditional relief?
From what I have read Gibson uses the lightest Mahogany bodies and maple tops for the custom shop Les Paul's these days.
As I mentioned earlier, these LP snobs pretty much opine that if it ain't a 58, 59 or a 60 - it's crap. I guess the only LPs I've ever played are from the ill-reputed Norlin era. They all played and sounded fine to my fingers and ears. In the modern era of stomp boxes and modeling amps - you can get a decent sound out of anything. Not every player has $40K to spend on a guitar!
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
@jszfunk I particularly liked the LP '59 vs Heritage vs PRS video. All of 'em too rich for my blood! 😉 I really widh they'd played all of these guitars straight into the amp. I don't know what pedals they were using (if any?) but both players had a large assembly of effects/unit. Obviously, all are great guitars. They mention the resale value on the LP '59 (Custom Shop Reissue). If I did buy one, I doubt I'd want to sell it.
@jszfunk I guess Gretsch is in big trouble if Gibson is in trouble.
Fender struggled by when Leo Fender and George Fullerton sold it to CBS. The suites did what suites always do. Cut back on building standards and numbers of experienced workers, make them for less with less people and pressure the sales department to sell more.
It's all about bottom line profit. That is how the suites always operate whether it's selling guitars and amps, automobiles, shampoo or lumber. The suites are bottom line focused and determined to cut costs and increase sales which is suppose to equal more money and bigger bonuses.
Fender has outsold Gibson since 1955 every year haven't they?
Then there is so much competition. Ibanez, Kramer, Jackson, Charvel, B. C. Rich, ESP and on and on.
What kind of players are the young players Gibson seems to be missing out for potential sales? Solos like Van Halen or Clapton or Warren Haynes? That kind of playing?
I'm a fan of good righteous guitar playing and the make of guitar is secondary. Strats, Teles, SGs, ES-355s, Ibanez etc, I like them. I like a good sounding Strat for a lot of songs. But my favorite is the tone of a good Les Paul.
And it seems you have to have a good Les Paul to get the exact tone. Not the pickups exclusively. You can take the pickups out of a Les Paul, rout out a Strat or Tele or put them in a PRS or even a SG and the tone is changed a little. It's the wood and how aged it is PLUS the Humbuckers than make that tone I like.
Here is that tone!
All of 'em too rich for my blood!
I hear ya , me too! It's just nice to hear what they all can do compared to each other.
I really wish they'd played all of these guitars straight into the amp.
THANK YOU AND AMEN!!!!
That is one of my BIGGEST pet peeves when it comes to some demo videos. For some unknown reason they put effects on these guitars. Drives me nuts!!! I just want to hear it straight into the amp and DO NOT color it. If you want to do pedals that's fine , but give me a clean tone straight into the amp and some overdriven tones at least and then go nutty with all of the effects. Just few chords and some lead licks is all I need.
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
