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Author: Subject: Racism - this is a very difficult subject in this day and age

Maximum Peach





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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 10:36 AM
Did you hear what Geraldine Ferraro said recently? Well here it is:

"I got up and the question was asked, 'Why do you think Barack Obama is in the place he is today" as the party's delegate frontrunner.

Ferraro said "If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept," Ferraro told the newspaper.

Obama himself has called the comments "patently absurd," and his chief strategist, David Axelrod, has called for Clinton to cut ties with the former New York congresswoman, who serves on her campaign's finance committee. Clinton has said that she does not agree with Ferraro's remarks.

Clinton campaign spokesman Mo Eleithee told CNN's Sasha Johnson Tuesday evening that "Ms. Ferraro is speaking for herself. We have made clear that we do not agree with her remarks."


Now here is what I wish to discuss in this thread. Her comments are basically true in my opinion. But our country has gotten to the point where one cannot say a single thing about it without being labeled a racist.

This is what we have become and you know it's true. We are so 180 degrees that we treat it with kid gloves and you aren't allowed to even discuss it.

I risk being labeled a racist simply by opening this thread and asking the question.

This is subjective...but do you think Obama would be quite as big as he is if he was a white guy?

What can be done about racism in this country, when a question like that essentially can't even be asked and expect to get a rational discussion?

I realize this is hypothetical, but can you imagine if John McCain had said that same thing...without a doubt, he would not be running for President come November.

I won't be voting for Obama, but I have listened to a few of the debates and have come to the conclusion that he will probably be our next President....and it all will be fine.

But, what has to happen to move forward on this topic in this country? Is this one of those topics that simply will not be resolved until a few generations pass?

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 11:07 AM
I wrote a thesis paper on Reverse Discrimination many moons ago. The basis was that society would eventually try and make up for injustice against minorities and women and by doing so would screw over the while male. I wrote that over twenty years before it started to actually happen.

Some industries are/were worse than others. Working in the media, it became a huge joke. Only women or minorities were being hired and often they were not qualified but were given the edge because of previous hiring practices against them. Two wrongs do not make a right.

In the case of Obama, I am sure he is qualified but perhaps he reached this stage faster than normal which is obvious if you look at the ages of others running. If he was white, would he be in the same position? Hard to say but is he qualified is the more important question and only our fellow US brothers and sisters can answer that with their votes.

[Edited on 3/12/2008 by CanadianMule]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 11:10 AM
Me and Bluedad handle it by taking road trips, listening to good live music, or making some of our own music, and drinking beer.....lots of beer.

Seriously though, if we can't have open and frank dialog about race relations or race related issues, how can we resolve the issues?

I personally don't think Obama is where he is simply because he is an articulate black man. He is a man of substance, and while I don't believe he is the candidate I will vote for (based on his POLITICS,) I have a lot of respect for him. He's gone farther than any other black presidential candidate, because the others before him were playing the race card (maybe not in their presidential campaigns, but in other arenas in the news...of course, I'm taking about Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.) If Obama does become the first black US President, I hope he'll do us a great job.

I'll tell you this....if Colin Powell were ever to run for President, he'd have my vote. He's ate up with class.

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 11:20 AM
I find Ferraro's premise completely flawed. You don't graduate from Harvard Law school get elected to the Illinois State Senate and then get elected Senator in Illinois without being an exceptional individual. What were Ferraro's credentials and accomplishments when she ran for office?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 11:29 AM
Geraldine Ferraro - Ferraro received her undergraduate degree from Marymount Manhattan College, and a J.D. degree from Fordham University School of Law, going to classes at night while working as a second-grade teacher in public schools during the day. Ferraro graduated from law school in 1960, one of only two women in her graduating class.

Ferraro was a teacher, lawyer, and member of the Queens County District Attorney's Office prior to being elected the United States Congress in 1978. In 1984 former Vice President and Presidential candidate Walter Mondale selected Ferraro to be his running mate in the upcoming election.

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 11:38 AM
So Mondale picked her because she was a woman and they proceeded to get their collective clocks cleaned by a B grade actor who everyone thought was a dim wit. Pot/Kettle.

[Edited on 3/12/2008 by Peachypetewi]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 11:42 AM
Pete, in 1984, Reagan was a sitting president, and quite popular. THAT is why they got their collective clocks cleaned.

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 12:03 PM
Happen to believe that Ferraro is correct. Has there in modern times been a candidate who within "three years" has gone from being a State Senator to becoming a U.S. Senator to running for the President of United States? Wonder if Sen. Kennedy and Sen. Daschle would have encouraged Obama to run if he would have been white and/or a female? Read recently that Obama considers the Senate "to slow", and certainly has a freshman senator he would have to "pay his dues" in the senority oriented Senate. I certainly believe this "dues paying" is something that interfers with "Obama's ambitions" to overhaul the political structure that he sees so much wrong with.
 
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True Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 12:29 PM
quote:
I wrote a thesis paper on Reverse Discrimination many moons ago. The basis was that society would eventually try and make up for injustice against minorities and women and by doing so would screw over the while male. I wrote that over twenty years before it started to actually happen.

Some industries are/were worse than others. Working in the media, it became a huge joke. Only women or minorities were being hired and often they were not qualified but were given the edge because of previous hiring practices against them. Two wrongs do not make a right.

In the case of Obama, I am sure he is qualified but perhaps he reached this stage faster than normal which is obvious if you look at the ages of others running. If he was white, would he be in the same position? Hard to say but is he qualified is the more important question and only our fellow US brothers and sisters can answer that with their votes.

[Edited on 3/12/2008 by CanadianMule]
a little wishful thinking there... votes have very little to do with qualification... maybe more accurately put as perception of qualifictaion...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 12:32 PM
quote:
Her comments are basically true in my opinion. But our country has gotten to the point where one cannot say a single thing about it without being labeled a racist.

I don't think that's true at all. I think that when it comes to race, a lot of people just don't know what they're saying. It's a communication issue for the most part, and people are uncomfortable talking about it.
quote:
This is what we have become and you know it's true.

"You know it's true!" Always a terrific and persuasive argument.
quote:
I risk being labeled a racist simply by opening this thread and asking the question.

No, you don't.
quote:
This is subjective...but do you think Obama would be quite as big as he is if he was a white guy?

No, I don't. From a white guy, some of his themes about transcending old divisions would be just words, and his race proves to some people that he has lived that. So it helps him in that regard.
But I think Ferraro's comments went quite a ways beyond "he wouldn't be as popular if he was a white guy." She basically said the press and voters are sexist and racist, and favor him because he's a black male. Here is a slightly longer quote:

quote:
"I think what America feels about a woman becoming president takes a very secondary place to Obama's campaign - to a kind of campaign that it would be hard for anyone to run against," she said. "For one thing, you have the press, which has been uniquely hard on her. It's been a very sexist media. Some just don't like her. The others have gotten caught up in the Obama campaign.

"If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position," she continued. "And if he was a woman (of any color) he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept."

Is it racist? Maybe. I'd say it's stupid and insulting to a lot of people. It's also stupid to say "oh, he's lucky, he's got all the advantages - he's a black man in America" when Ferraro's chosen candidate is married to a two-term President. I guess that's not an advantage? Also, apparently Ferraro said similar things about Jesse Jackson a long time ago. So that's kind of dumb.

Race is a very difficult subject and always has been. It helps when you're not whining or aggressively shoving your foot in your mouth, as she did.

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 12:39 PM
quote:
quote:
I risk being labeled a racist simply by opening this thread and asking the question.



No, you don't.
Not by you at least, but I can imagine some having a difference of opinion... people label each other all the time, even if it's not warranted...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 12:45 PM
quote:
quote:
I wrote a thesis paper on Reverse Discrimination many moons ago. The basis was that society would eventually try and make up for injustice against minorities and women and by doing so would screw over the while male. I wrote that over twenty years before it started to actually happen.

Some industries are/were worse than others. Working in the media, it became a huge joke. Only women or minorities were being hired and often they were not qualified but were given the edge because of previous hiring practices against them. Two wrongs do not make a right.

In the case of Obama, I am sure he is qualified but perhaps he reached this stage faster than normal which is obvious if you look at the ages of others running. If he was white, would he be in the same position? Hard to say but is he qualified is the more important question and only our fellow US brothers and sisters can answer that with their votes.

[Edited on 3/12/2008 by CanadianMule]
a little wishful thinking there... votes have very little to do with qualification... maybe more accurately put as perception of qualifictaion...


I think that the fact that he reached this level is proof that he qualifies to at least be considered. I guess the number of votes will show whether or not a majority believe that he is.

For myself, I always questioned what the possiblity of two people in the same family being qualified to be President is. Out of the entire population of the USA, I fail to believe that the most qualified person would be a son of a former President or brothers (Kennedy) or a husband and wife combo (Clinton). What are the odds of that? To me that is proof that there is money, power and a select group of people behind US politics and not really the will of the people. This is a time for change IMO and I hope that as a nation you all get the leader that you deserve. That is obviously up to all of you to decide. I think that both your Govt and ours here in Canada have created a faulty system based on political parties. You should vote Rep or Dem but rather vote for the person that you believe will help your areas and country. This system was set up to be a two horse race with no chance of other entries.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 01:04 PM
quote:
Not by you at least, but I can imagine some having a difference of opinion... people label each other all the time, even if it's not warranted...

Sure. But I think there is really no chance anyone here would call him a racist for bringing up the subject.

CUH, what about Abraham Lincoln?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 01:35 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I risk being labeled a racist simply by opening this thread and asking the question.
No, you don't.
Not by you at least, but I can imagine some having a difference of opinion... people label each other all the time, even if it's not warranted...

SAY IT LOUD!!! I'M HAYSEED AND I'M PROUD!

Good gawd!! Hit me! Owwwww!

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 01:47 PM
quote:
Or FDR. His highest elected office prior to the presidency was NY State Senator. He lost elections for the US Senate and US VP. He was an Assistant Secretary Of The Navy, but that is appointed.

FDR was governor of New York.

It's worth noting that Ferraro didn't exactly have a wealth of experience either when Mondale chose her - I think she was a three-term Representative. And she admits she only got the offer because she was a woman. Good thing she didn't get resentful about stuff like that until now.

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 01:48 PM
"Still hayseed enough to say, 'Look who's in the big town.' " ~ J. C. Mellencamp

[Edited on 3/12/2008 by BigDaveOnBass]

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 01:54 PM
Reverse discrimination? I think there are just as many people who still will not consider voting for Obama because he is black, or Clinton because she is a woman, as there are voting for them because it's en vogue or the PC thing to do.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 01:57 PM
quote:
Reverse discrimination? I think there are just as many people who still will not consider voting for Obama because he is black, or Clinton because she is a woman, as there are voting for them because it's en vogue or the PC thing to do.
If my mother was still alive, I wonder which one she'd vote for. Her career was in EEO matters. I'm sure she'd be torn...

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 02:04 PM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
Or FDR. His highest elected office prior to the presidency was NY State Senator. He lost elections for the US Senate and US VP. He was an Assistant Secretary Of The Navy, but that is appointed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----


FDR was governor of New York.

It's worth noting that Ferraro didn't exactly have a wealth of experience either when Mondale chose her - I think she was a three-term Representative. And she admits she only got the offer because she was a woman. Good thing she didn't get resentf


Govenor of New York (1928 -1932) and Assistant Secretary of the Navy (1913 - 1920) under Woodrow Wilson during WWI. That's a helluva lot of experience.

As for Ferraro, her "three terms" as a member of the House would have gven her six years of experience, which is twice as much as Obama.


 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 02:15 PM
Quote:
Now here is what I wish to discuss in this thread. Her comments are basically true in my opinion. But our country has gotten to the point where one cannot say a single thing about it without being labeled a racist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------

Couldn't agree more. We live in an era where nobody talks politics anymore. Rather than risk offending someone, people keep their thoughts to themselves. So here comes Barack Obama, No political History to speak of, no definitive stance on anything....just a stuffed shirt in my opinion. An articulate stuffed shirt, but a stuffed shirt all the same. So, say someting to that effect and watch the sparks fly. My hat's off to Geraldine Ferraro. maybe if more career politicians said what they truly believed, we'd all be much better off.

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 02:25 PM
quote:
IMO, Asst SecNav doesn't have a lot of impact on policy. He is more of a type that carries out what others wish to have done. And, with all due respect, in your opinion, how much experience does one need to run for president?


Some of FDRs accomplishments has Asst Secretary of the Navy.

. Worked to expand the Navy
. Founded the United States Navy Reserve
. Wrote the constitution which the U.S. imposed on Haiti in 1915.
. Negotiated with Congressional leaders and other government departments to get budgets approved.
. An early advocate of the submarine warfare and also of means to combat the German submarine menace to Allied shipping.
. In charge of demobilization of the Navy after WWI, although he opposed plans to completely dismantle the Navy.

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 02:41 PM
quote:
As for Ferraro, her "three terms" as a member of the House would have gven her six years of experience, which is twice as much as Obama.

That's a very selective definition of experience. I think that's the only elected office she ever held, while he spent about seven years as a state senator in Illinois. The House also has 435 members and the Senate has 100, so you could say he has more of a voice in what happens... but whatever.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 03:36 PM
quote:
CUH, what about Abraham Lincoln?


OTF,

Ask, and ye shall receive.

quote:
The "Abraham Lincoln was unqualified to be president, so it's ok that Obama is also unqualified" argument must be rebutted, because it has been repeated far too much.

First, Lincoln had been a national figure for 15 years - he had been in the House of Representatives for 14 years prior to being named president.

Second, Lincoln showed particularly poor judgment when he was a representative by opposing the Mexican/American War and calling the president a murderer. It would be strange to argue that poor judgment in public office is a prerequistate towards being a successful president.

Third, the era is just too different. Today America has a fiscal crisis caused by our out of control entitlements, and we are the global leader in an age of terror and WMD proliferation.

In Lincoln's day, there was no income tax prior to the Civil War, and during the Civil War the income tax was minimal. Moreover, America was a 3rd rate power. Lincoln was our nation's greatest president, but the office of the presidency has grown in complexity exponentially since his day.

Fourth, Lincoln showed his intellect and mastery of the issues of the day through his nationally renowned Lincoln/Douglas debates, speeches that would last hours and intricately delve into history, law, politics, philosophy, and religion. Obama is a brilliant man and a great speaker, but his speeches are more platitude than insight.

Moreover, Lincoln is being used as the exception to prove the rule. If indeed anyone who showed poor judgment and who has a minimal resume is presidential material, why stop at Obama? Why not include 90% of America?


My thoughs exactly.

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 03:49 PM
quote:
First, Lincoln had been a national figure for 15 years - he had been in the House of Representatives for 14 years prior to being named president.



Whoever wrote that needs to check their facts again.

quote:
Second, Lincoln showed particularly poor judgment when he was a representative by opposing the Mexican/American War and calling the president a murderer. It would be strange to argue that poor judgment in public office is a prerequistate towards being a successful president.


That doesn't make much sense.

quote:
Today America has a fiscal crisis caused by our out of control entitlements


Wow, that's certainly one way of looking at it.

quote:
Lincoln was our nation's greatest president, but the office of the presidency has grown in complexity exponentially since his day.



Does this mean that President Bush has a greater grasp of the complexities than Lincoln? Wow, W is smarter than I thought.

quote:
Fourth, Lincoln showed his intellect and mastery of the issues of the day through his nationally renowned Lincoln/Douglas debates, speeches that would last hours and intricately delve into history, law, politics, philosophy, and religion.


Douglas got re-elected after the L/D debates, incidentally.

quote:
Obama is a brilliant man and a great speaker, but his speeches are more platitude than insight.



Pure, unadulterated opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that, though.

quote:
Moreover, Lincoln is being used as the exception to prove the rule. If indeed anyone who showed poor judgment and who has a minimal resume is presidential material, why stop at Obama?


In the spirit of the thread, we've had 43 white guys in a row over a span of 200 years. How can race not come up in the discussion?

 

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  posted on 3/12/2008 at 04:57 PM
Lincoln was in the U.S. House for one term.

 

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