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Author: Subject: Virginia Does Healing Right - Thwarted Not Thwarted

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/9/2020 at 09:21 AM
quote:
It's not a Confederate relic, but did you see this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/world/europe/edward-colston-statue-brita in-racism.html
I'm kind of surprised at the ripple effect that has taken place internationally from the Floyd incident.

It is kind of amazing that finally, there is a case that is so heinous that the outrage is global. Who thinks a 5-century old monument to a slave trader should still be standing? Good for the protesters in Bristol who rid their city of this abomination. As the writer for The Guardian said they've been debating for years; now, they're acting.

Great Britain is who first imported African slaves to its American colonies. They're right to be thinking about their role.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 10:26 AM
https://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/watch-now-two-lawsuits-challenge-lee -statues-removal-northam-says-divisive-monument-needs-to-come/article_ab073 021-aea5-55f0-96e4-c8ccc47cd361.html

And here I thought something positive might actually happen. Now, there's a second lawsuit by man who has nothing whatsoever to do w/the statue beyond disliking the graffiti that plagues it on the grounds that it violates the historic preservation status of the entire avenue on which it stands. A spokesperson for that organization has said its classification has nothing to do w/removing it. That jerk is representing himself - no doubt because he couldn't find a lawyer who would take a case for a client who doesn't even live in the city of Richmond trying to jump in.

Really, it makes me wish the state would just take a wrecking ball to the 20 foot high 12 ton statue & be done w/it.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 12:01 PM
In the "this is the 21st century in the US" spirit, two Confederate monuments were removed last week in AL - Birmingham & Mobile.

Elsewhere in Virginia, a county board decided to rename its recreation center from "Confederate Hills." Parents are asking school districts in another county to retitle schools named for famous Confederates. It's mind-boggling to me that Confederate-named anything has been allowed to exist 150+ years after the Confederate states were defeated & by proclamation were considered to be "of the whole United States."

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 12:15 PM
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It's mind-boggling to me that Confederate-named anything has been allowed to exist


"Been allowed"?

Is this not a free country?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 12:18 PM
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They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves

So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?

The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves so they represent racism and slavery directly. Yes, the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and that's awful and how we revere them is worth a conversation (just as Columbus-worship has been for decades). But that's a different conversation than southern states continuing to lionize Confederates.


quote:
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves


No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 01:25 PM
quote:
quote:
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves

No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...

Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 06:14 PM
Was warching TV today and the topic was Trump's resistance on renaming military bases that were named after Confederate generals.

Steve Schmidt referred to Tump as the 2nd Confederate President. Seems like a good fit.

Trump: “Won’t Consider” Changing Base Names Honoring Confederates Who Fought for Slavery

https://www.newsandguts.com/trump-wont-consider-changing-base-names-honorin g-confederates-who-fought-for-slavery/

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/10/2020 at 08:15 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves

No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...

Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?


You call it semantics, as a Civil War buff, I will refer to it as accuracy

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 07:49 AM
A real Whipping Post is gone. One Confederate statue situated on the site of a slave whipping post in Portsmouth VA was pulled down & 4 others were beheaded last night after the city council delayed a vote on removing the monuments. One protester in his 30s was injured when a piece of the statue hit him in the head when the rope pulling the statue down broke & he was taken to the hospital. The police had been ordered to stand by not to preserve property but life; they stepped in when the man was injured & the protesters disbanded w/o incident.

Later last night in Richmond, a 1907 paint-spattered statue of President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis was knocked down on Monument Ave in Richmond VA.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/richmond-jefferson-davis-statue-pulled-do wn-trnd/index.html

Although the mayor had announced plans to remove all Confederate statues on city land on the avenue ("Richmond is no longer the capitol of the Confederacy" per the mayor) following George Floyd's death & work had begun to ready the statue of Robert E. Lee for removal from state land on the avenue, two lawsuits were filed to prevent Lee's statue from being removed.


 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 08:32 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves

No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...

Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?

You call it semantics, as a Civil War buff, I will refer to it as accuracy

While completely missing the point, so it's semantics.

[Edited on 6/11/2020 by porkchopbob]

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 11:04 AM
forgive cross threading and repeat posting, but here is another take on "Confederates did not own slaves" theme.

The Southern Confederacy was elite white privilege rallying their serfs to fight for a cause that would gain them nothing, victory nothing but a guarantee of strife for the enlisted.

I have been hearing a lot of the old "rank and file Confederates did not own slaves" stuff of late. And I agree. Unfortunaty, far from forgiving the poor Southern soldier the sins of his master (remember, massah was massah over all, not just blacks! In fact the truth is the average white man was more often than not WORTH LESS THAN A SLAVE. Hell, worth less than a horse! So yes, the masses rebelyelling themselves into bloody piles of rags straight into Union cannon fire - yes they were not slave owners. All this proves is they were being used by the wealthy elite as cannon fodder to protect slavery.

Slavery may have served its purpose in wrestling agriculture from raw wilderness on such a massive scale - possibly unachievable through more civilized means in that age. A lot of Africans died cutting out rice plantations from primordial swamp and cotton fields from choking jungle - but at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution that primitive and barbaric "peculiar institution" virtually guaranteed strife for all but the richest whites and the merchant class that served them.

Am trotting out this old Mark Twain warhorse, sorry to bore any who have seen my 20 other posts where I quoted this:

Mr. Twain, please put this baby to bed, thank you:

. . . the "poor whites" of our South who were always despised, and frequently insulted, by the slave lords around them, and who owed their base condition simply to the presence of slavery in their midst, were yet pusillanimously ready to side with the slave lords in all political moves for the upholding and perpetuating of slavery, and did also finally shoulder their muskets and pour out their lives in an effort to prevent the destruction of that very institution which degraded them. And there was only one redeeming feature connected with that pitiful piece of history; and that was, that secretly the "poor white" did detest the slave lord, and did feel his own shame. That feeling was not brought to the surface, but the fact that it was there and could have been brought out, under favoring circumstances, was something--in fact it was enough; for it showed that a man is at bottom a man, after all, even if it doesn't show on the outside.
- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

[Edited on 6/11/2020 by BrerRabbit]

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 11:20 AM
quote:
forgive cross threading and repeat posting, but here is another take on "Confederates did not own slaves" theme...Slavery may have served its purpose in wrestling agriculture from raw wilderness on such a massive scale - possibly unachievable through more civilized means in that age. A lot of Africans died cutting out rice plantations from primordial swamp and cotton fields from choking jungle - but at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution that primitive and barbaric "peculiar institution" virtually guaranteed strife for all but the richest whites and the merchant class that served them.

As was mentioned earlier, it is the British who started the importation of Africans after Native Americans proved unsuitable for the elite white colonialists' purpose either by refusal, war, or death from the diseases brought by the colonists. Per Lukester's post, even some Englishmen tossed a slave trader's statue into the Bristol harbor over the weekend because they were fed up w/debate not action on removing these hated symbols.


 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 11:29 AM
Yeah, "ownership" is not the root of the issue, and arguing it is an attempt to excuse while missing the broader issue. Hardly any wealthy owners actually fought at all. It's the culture and profiteering from slavery that the Confederacy, its Generals and those who fought under them, represent. Not to say the Union was without racism (many northern states are still filled with prejudice) and I'm sure there are those who see only an old white man who owned slaves when they see the Jefferson Memorial or a statue of Julius Caesar.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 11:31 AM
^ Now we are into the mechanics of colonialism - pretty deep waters to navigate via the surface-skimmer of thread blurb. But yeah - and it is all still in play - and gotta say I am happy to see folks striking back at the ancient beast again.
 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 03:53 PM
I'm finding it fascinating watching the GOP trying to decide whether they are the protector of the Confederacy or the "Party of Lincoln," finally realizing that they can't be both.
 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 04:35 PM
It's interesting when I was growing up and a teen and young adult, the clearly racist politicians were Democrats. Richard Russell of Alabama was a horrible racist and close friend of President Johnson. Russell strongly opposed ending segregation and he and Johnson had a shouting match on the phone. A Senate office building in Washington continues to bear his name. George Wallace was a Democrat. Robert Byrd of West Virginia, close friend of Bill Clinton was a racist and once was in the KKK.

Most blacks in the 50's and 60's were Republicans because of Lincoln.

What I am curious about is the destruction of statues of Christopher Columbus. Christopher Columbus is too famous worldwide to erase. Here in America we have Washington, District of Columbia. Look up Columbia. Means Land of Columbus. Columbus, Ohio, Columbia, South Carolina, Columbus, Georgia, Columbus Circus in Manhattan. A province in Canada is British Columbia etc etc etc.

CC is far more famous than Robert E. Lee. Confederate flags and monuments are misplaced. They perhaps should be in museums. The Confederate States of America lost what they called " the war of northern aggression " and the fed's violation of states rights. But if a state is to be in the union, there are some things that membership requires and the free states and Lincoln found slavery to be brutal, immoral and unconstitutional. As President Lincoln said " We say all men are created equally and endowed with certain rights from their creator. But in practice not if you are a negro or a jew or a catholic ".

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 06:02 PM
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CC is far more famous than Robert E. Lee. Confederate flags and monuments are misplaced. They perhaps should be in museums.

This seems to be the moment when Americans stand up & say, "the CSA lost the Civil War, there are 50 states in the US, and the time for symbols of/monuments to a CSA that existed for only 4 years before being defeated to come down is now." They're intimidating, divisive, & appealing symbols for white supremacists. They shouldn't be on public display anywhere in the US. As Rusty pointed out, most of them have no artistic value - having been made from the same mold w/just a different face - & don't belong in museums. Private collectors are welcome to them.

Columbus is an entirely separate issue that is, as you say, of global importance but isn't immediately critical to promoting unity & healing in the US. It doesn't bear as directly on the US except as you note in the etymology of geographic locations. The same could be said for many cities, towns, & states. The name of the state of Hawaii is from a polynesian mythological figure. Most of the 13 colonies were named to represent English/French figures & geography - Charles, Elizabeth, Raleigh, Georgia, York, Hampshire, de la Warre, Louis.


 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 06:28 PM
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Columbus is an entirely separate issue that is, as you say, of global importance but isn't immediately critical to promoting unity & healing in the US. It doesn't bear as directly on the US except as you note in the etymology of geographic locations.


You must not have ever known any Native Americans. Columbus is a despised symbol to them. Columbus and Columbus day are salt in old wounds, to this day. Part and parcel of the same issue.

As long as we are cleaning house, might as well ditch that Columbus bastard while we are at it. He was a murderous slaving monster.

Time to knock em down! Glad I got to see this in my lifetime, and hope my lifetime of being against these symbols of depravity contributed to this.

Good going America!


[Edited on 6/12/2020 by BrerRabbit]

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/11/2020 at 08:02 PM
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As long as we are cleaning house, might as well ditch that Columbus bastard while we are at it. He was a murderous slaving monster.

I don't disagree, but no Native Americans died w/a white cop's foot on his neck for 9 minutes in the past month that has sparked outrage throughout the world. Today, people are focused on removing Confederate symbols created by Americans to be used against other Americans. Native Americans' biggest problem right now is getting the state of South Dakota to allow them check points to monitor visitors who might be sick w/ or carriers of COVID19.

Columbus was a European who came in & enslaved Native Americans. The Civil was was internal.

If Columbus statues are torn down - especially the one in Columbus Circle - along w/Confederate monuments, works for me.


 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/12/2020 at 08:14 AM
Another statue down in Virginia. This morning at 7 am, a confederate statue in Norfolk VA was professionally removed at the mayor's direction. It was so nondescript that no one knows exactly how long it had been there & was known only as "Johnny Reb." It was moved to a cemetery of confederate soldiers.

The mayor ordered it removed ASAP after protesters' attempt to remove 4 statues in neighboring Portsmouth VA resulted in a broken piece of a statue hitting a man in the head & causing him to lose consciousness. He's reported to be in a medically induced coma w/life-threatening injuries.

Couldn't they all be professionally removed? People are tearing down statues both here & abroad; they're tired of debate & court shenanigans. The statues are coming down/being defaced one way or another.


 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/12/2020 at 08:46 AM
Who's going to design the new American flag?

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 6/12/2020 at 09:16 AM
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Virginia, Nascar, Philadelphia, will reap what they have sown. If these institutions think that taking down a few statues is going to stop the Trump train, then I've got news for the left - we will win again in November riding a wave of the best economy this country has ever seen.


^HahahahahahahahahahHah Ahhhhhahahahaha. Very subtle


 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/12/2020 at 11:44 AM
You can't erase Christooher Columbus by removing his statues. Washington, D. C., Columbus, Ohio, British Columbia, the Columbia River, Columbus, Georgia etc etc etc. Statues in Spain, Ireland etc. Columbus is too famous to remove.

Mayor of New York promised to remove Christopher Columbus from Columbus circle then a group of Italian citizens raised hell and uninvited him to their annual celebration in Manhattan and de Blasio chucked out.

Columbia Records, Columbia Pictures, CBS...the Columbia Broadcasting System. Columbia University in New York City.

Columbia is a Latin toponym in use since 1730 with reference to the 13 Colonies which would go on to form The United States of America. It is a toponym from the name of the Italian explorer Christopher Columbus and means Land of Columbus.

Washington, District of Columbia or Land of Columbus.

How in hell could any protesters erase Chris' name or toppling 4 or 5 statues put a dent in Chris having a huge spot in U.S. and world history. It's like trying to drain a swamp with a tea spoon!!

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/12/2020 at 12:45 PM
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Columbus is too famous to remove.


Nobody is too famous to remove. We don't see Julius Caesarville much in England these days. Or Hitlerbahn in Germany.

Columbus is toast.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/12/2020 at 12:56 PM
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Native Americans' biggest problem right now is getting the state of South Dakota to allow them check points to monitor visitors who might be sick w/ or carriers of COVID19.


Can't let this pass - won't further derail thread, but will just point out that you may want to brush up on your Native American history and current events. South Dakota pipeline ring a bell? Cops setting dogs on kids? Peabody Coal in Arizona gutting Navajo/Hopi land? Uranium mining? Strife at Pine Ridge? And on and on.



 

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