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Author: Subject: Virginia Does Healing Right - Thwarted Not Thwarted

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 07:26 AM
Well, there is this about Mr Lee.
Fake news I'm sure...

The Myth of the Kindly General Lee
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly -general-lee/529038/

 

____________________
Well 30 years of heart and soul,lord we took it further than rock and roll.
We stood together thru thick and thin,yeah we made the best of it all back then.
Then I guess time took it's toll,cut me deep,cut me cold.
Brother against brother....

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 07:58 AM
quote:
Again lukester, he never owned a slave.

Lukester, this dogged belief in southern myths in spite of decades of scholarly, 1st source research goes to the heart of perpetuating racism. Lee wasn't a saint. He was a slave owner who managed 4 plantations w/slave labor. As a soldier, his letters express his disappointment that not only was he not allowed to bring 3 slaves w/him on campaigns, he wasn't allowed even 1. After retirement, he became president of Washington & Lee University in Lexington VA where a chapter of the KKK was founded during his tenure & where Lee turned a blind eye to violence against blacks by students, including rape of black girls/women & lynchings. He was indecisive at best about the major issues of the day, his personal life, & career choices. A reluctant general is hardly who one wants as commander of the armed forces in a war.

The characters of Lee, Jackson, Davis, Maury, or Stuart are irrelevant. It's that the monuments were erected starting in 1890 to intimidate blacks & remind them of the white male supremacy that remained in place until the Civil Rights movement 70 years later. Now, 130 years later, the statues are being removed. They serve no purpose except to antagonize & humiliate the black citizens of Virginia. They're being appropriated by the resurgence of the white supremacy movement. Removal is long overdue.

Virginia's announcement was made swiftly after the death of George Floyd & before the arrest of his killer. Yes, there were early protests in Richmond, but state & city leadership took action toward healing - something their predecessors failed to do.

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 08:25 AM
quote:
Well, there is this about Mr Lee.
Fake news I'm sure...

The Myth of the Kindly General Lee
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly -general-lee/529038/


I read that one too, but knowing the audience for this discussion I figured anything from the Atlantic would illicit scoffs since the paper was founded in Boston.

quote:

Decided not to do the "modern example" since it might (might hell, would) cause some decidedly vile remarks thrown my way about comparing blacks to*********.


Gee thanks for showing restraint. Again if you are willed something and transfer OWNERSHIP, that means you owned it, what is the point of trying to use technicalities to prove a false point that Lee was somehow this wonderful man. I just find it highly hypocritical and suspect that Mr. Jerry pretends to be the authority on Civil War history around here but subscribes to all the historical whitewashing that mirrors the beliefs of the Klan and the Neo Confederate scumbags then wonders why his remarks are construed has being racist.

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 08:31 AM
quote:
The characters of Lee, Jackson, Davis, Maury, or Stuart are irrelevant. It's that the monuments were erected starting in 1890 to intimidate blacks & remind them of the white male supremacy that remained in place until the Civil Rights movement 70 years later. Now, 130 years later, the statues are being removed. They serve no purpose except to antagonize & humiliate the black citizens of Virginia. They're being appropriated by the resurgence of the white supremacy movement. Removal is long overdue.

X2
That statement makes this false argument Jerry is making pointless but I'm sure it will continue to be made, I'm done addressing it since it is false as well as completely superfluous in the context of this thread.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 08:55 AM
quote:
quote:
The characters of Lee, Jackson, Davis, Maury, or Stuart are irrelevant. It's that the monuments were erected starting in 1890 to intimidate blacks & remind them of the white male supremacy that remained in place until the Civil Rights movement 70 years later. Now, 130 years later, the statues are being removed. They serve no purpose except to antagonize & humiliate the black citizens of Virginia. They're being appropriated by the resurgence of the white supremacy movement. Removal is long overdue.

X2
That statement makes this false argument Jerry is making pointless but I'm sure it will continue to be made, I'm done addressing it since it is false as well as completely superfluous in the context of this thread.


There have been previous attempts to remove the statues in Richmond, Va, but all failed. There were the typical push pulls on aspects of what the statues represent or don't represent, impact to tourism, how city council members would vote, state vs local politics, etc.

Then there was George Floyd which was the probably the single most impacting catalyst to have Lee and others removed quickly. Many who were previously against have jumped on board. I wonder if they see it as not being holdouts or last man standing, or if they truly have seen the impacts. The protests in Richmond followed the course as in other major cities across the country and are still ongoing with many of these at the base of Lee and Jeb Stuart.

The other night a statue was pulled down in Monroe Park. See below:

UPDATE: Protesters pull down Confederate statue in Richmond's Monroe Park of Confederate Gen. Williams Carter Wickham, which has stood in the park since 1891

https://www.richmond.com/news/local/update-protesters-pull-down-confederate -statue-in-richmonds-monroe-park/article_8e071910-e47f-5114-bb05-325e39fc20 fd.html

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 09:17 AM
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves


So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?

 

____________________
"Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this". - Joe Biden, 1977

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 09:27 AM
quote:
There have been previous attempts to remove the statues in Richmond, Va, but all failed.


My original point is kudos to the Virginia governor & Richmond mayor who are finally making it happen.

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 09:35 AM
quote:
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves


So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?


Some of the same people petitioning the removal of these statues have been asking that same question for 20+ years, usually met with pushback from the same crowd thats crying about these statues.

Our money looks like baseball cards for slave owners
-Dave Chappelle

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 09:41 AM
quote:
both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money

The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.

Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 09:41 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves


So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?


Some of the same people petitioning the removal of these statues have been asking that same question for 20+ years, usually met with pushback from the same crowd thats crying about these statues.

Our money looks like baseball cards for slave owners
-Dave Chappelle


So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well

 

____________________
"Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this". - Joe Biden, 1977

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 09:46 AM
quote:
So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well


How about starting a new thread re the selection process for US currency. This thread is limited to applauding the Virginia leaders for taking steps towards healing race relations by removing Confederate monuments. Once in a while, it's good to have a positive thread that doesn't deteriorate into off-topic gibberish.

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 09:58 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves


So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?


Some of the same people petitioning the removal of these statues have been asking that same question for 20+ years, usually met with pushback from the same crowd thats crying about these statues.

Our money looks like baseball cards for slave owners
-Dave Chappelle


So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well


Sure why not? While we're at it, hurry up and get Andrew Jackson's face out of my wallet. The new $20 with Harriet Tubman on the front that was to be put in circulation this year was pushed back to 2028 thanks to Steve Mnuchin.

Here are some I think an easy case could be made for as replacemens, Frederick Douglas, JFK, MLK, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Jackie Robinson, Woody Guthrie maybe. Or here's an idea, don't put anyone's face on the currency.

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 10:11 AM
quote:
quote:
So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well


How about starting a new thread re the selection process for US currency. This thread is limited to applauding the Virginia leaders for taking steps towards healing race relations by removing Confederate monuments. Once in a while, it's good to have a positive thread that doesn't deteriorate into off-topic gibberish.


Agreed, sorry for contributing to talking points of those who like to steer the topic off course. I'll keep any of my posts in this thread on topic

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 10:28 AM
quote:
Agreed

I was hoping there'd be examples from other cities - like Indianapolis per LegalHemp - that are doing things like renaming streets not necessarily to honor George Floyd, but to let people know that subtle & not so subtle reminders of racism & oppression are everywhere & should be removed.

I know Cuomo wanted to change the name of 2 streets named after Confederate generals at the Ft. Hamilton Army base in Brooklyn after Charlottesville. I don't know whether that happened, but it did spark the removal of busts of Lee & Jackson from Bronx Community College's sculpture garden of Great Americans & a Brooklyn Episcopal congregation's removal of a plaque for Lee.

[Edited on 6/7/2020 by cyclone88]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/7/2020 at 10:43 PM
quote:
quote:
both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money

The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.

Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.


OMG.....Exactly, the Legislature, NOT the people of Virginia...And if the men on currency were slave owners, it has EVERYTHING to do with the topic.

 

____________________
"Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this". - Joe Biden, 1977

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 02:29 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money

The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.

Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.


OMG.....Exactly, the Legislature, NOT the people of Virginia...And if the men on currency were slave owners, it has EVERYTHING to do with the topic.


I don't think the people on the currency lost a war fought against the US. Slavery aside, why honor those responsible for a war against the US. I will never understand those who fly both an American and a Confederate flag.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 06:18 AM
quote:
I will never understand those who fly both an American and a Confederate flag.

Me, either. A person was either a Confederate or an American - they were mutually exclusive. I don't get the support for states who seceded from the US & were defeated as something to exist 150 years later.

I haven't been to Germany in 2 years, but as I recall, there aren't statues of Hitler, Goering, Eichmann, Hess, & Himmler because they were banned along w/swastikas immediately after the war. Even buildings used by Nazis were torn down to prevent them from becoming attractive shrines to Neo-Nazis.

It took Germany 4 years (1949) to rid itself of symbols of a regime built on hate; the US still can't seem to do that.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 09:57 AM
quote:
Slavery aside


You have got to be kidding, right?...."Slavery aside"...How in the hell do you bring up the evils of the Confederacy, suggest they are traitors to the Union and then write "slavery aside". Is that not the argument for why the war was fought in the first place? Slavery?...And what could be more nefarious than owning someone? Jesus if you are going to heap false praise on the State of Virginia for destroying statues that are part of our history and ignore the people who actually participated in this stain, you may need to return to the classroom.

 

____________________
"Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this". - Joe Biden, 1977

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 11:29 AM
^ Muleman.
 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 01:56 PM
quote:
^ Muleman.

You're a bloodhound, although he does leave a rather heavily scented trail.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 02:21 PM
quote:
using this same logic

Your posts demonstrate that you aren't using logic & don't understand the title & purpose of the thread.

Since Floyd was killed, do you know of any cities that have renamed streets previously named for Confederates or torn down Confederate monuments in a gesture of solidarity w/the protesters or as a tribute to George Floyd or because it's the right thing to do? If so, please enumerate. That's the purpose of this thread - healing & commending those who are healing very old wounds. It's a positive thread.




 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/8/2020 at 03:01 PM
quote:
I was enjoying the thread and hoping to hear you continue. I wouldn't censor your knowledge of history because a few people might find it objectionable.


I see you're new here, so a tip is that except for WP political threads, we tend to stay on topic. BigV is not someone who needs advice as to when to censor himself; he can handle himself.

If you're enjoying the thread, I hope you can add some instances of Confederate relics that have been destroyed, removed, or renamed post-Floyd to continue the conversation.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 6/9/2020 at 08:23 AM
So, of course, the Virginia plan to remove a symbol of divisiveness & hate in an effort to show unity has been delayed by the action of one man - William Gregory, a descendant of the family from whom the land on which the statue stands was annexed in 1890. That's 130 years ago. Claiming the state has a duty to "faithfully guard" & "affectionately protect" the statue, Gregory went to court against the state. The judge ordered a 10-day injunction until the lawsuit can be heard.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/ 06/09/872707016/virginia-judge-blocks-plan-to-remove-statue-of-robert-e-lee

Guess Mr. Gregory missed the news of George Floyd's death & the global protests that followed & are now in their third week.

The good news is that the governor's plan inspired the city of Fredericksburg to remove a slave auction block from its downtown (imagine keeping THAT as a symbol of what a great place Fredericksburg is), a Confederate statue was removed by the city of Alexandria, & protesters knocked down another Confederate general statue in Richmond.

Give it up, Mr. Gregory. Lee lost the war. The statue doesn't make him a winner.




 

Peach Master



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  posted on 6/9/2020 at 08:56 AM
quote:
If you're enjoying the thread, I hope you can add some instances of Confederate relics that have been destroyed, removed, or renamed post-Floyd to continue the conversation.


It's not a Confederate relic, but did you see this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/world/europe/edward-colston-statue-brita in-racism.html
I'm kind of surprised at the ripple effect that has taken place internationally from the Floyd incident.

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 6/9/2020 at 09:01 AM
quote:
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves

So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?

The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves so they represent racism and slavery directly. Yes, the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and that's awful and how we revere them is worth a conversation (just as Columbus-worship has been for decades). But that's a different conversation than southern states continuing to lionize Confederates.

 

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