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Author: Subject: I Call Bullsh!t, or.........does Trump really take Hydrochloriquine?

True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 08:49 AM
I am reminded of the comedic line, "the operation was a success but the patient died". Hydrochloriquine just might kill ya - but then you won't get the virus. I can see where some might declare victory.

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 09:13 AM
quote:
You can take the information to date as the be all end all, I take a more open look that more information and data is yet to come. I didn't say any results would be in tomorrow or next week or next month. I'm just trying to say that more results on the effectiveness of this drug for different uses are yet to come. I don't know what they will all yield. I don't think anyone should suggest they know what all the results of the pending trials will yield, good, bad or indifferent.


As professional who works in this field, I consider data we know to date. Hydroxychlorquine has not proven effective as anything vis a vis COVID19 but it has definitely been reported to cause cardiac problems & fatalities. Fact. It is a high risk thing for Trump as POTUS to do. First & foremost, it is dangerous to his health. Further, his use of it despite all medical evidence to the contrary confuses the American public & unsettles other world leaders. Between that & his bleach comment, he sounds irresponsible at best & unhinged at worst.

I can't speak to every study you find on google, but I can say there are federal laws that govern human research trials from funding to informed consent by the participants to ethical guidelines to liability to oversight to factors that must be reported & when a trial must be ended. There are equivalents in most other countries. Heads roll when a non-starter is allowed to continue past the checkpoint of likelihood of success.

The most important research issues for COVID19 are a vaccine, antibody tests, & treatment(s). Right now, we have nothing - no more than when this started. We're on a tight timeframe. The logical thing to do is follow the courses that are the most promising.

You state the obvious that in the future, vaccines & drugs may be developed that address COVID19. Or there may not; there still isn't a vaccine for HIV even though there is a non-lethal prophylaxis that is sometimes effective. Obviously, researchers & drug manufacturers make their living study prevention & treatments for every disease on the planet. What's your point? You're not going to say you don't know the results of every trial for every drug in the world? Has anyone ask you to do so? No one else - especially those who allocate resources to researchers - should rank probabilities of success for COVDI19 as of today when decisions have to be made?

Intentionally or not, you sound like a Trump apologist.

 

True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 09:24 AM
You said:

quote:
What we do know is that it doesn't work as a prophylaxis


I'm saying we don't know.

How do you know so confidently to put it in bold?

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 09:25 AM
quote:
When questioned about hydrochloriquine for details, his response was he's been "hearing really good things". He makes these genralizations all the time. Who knows if there is any truth to his paint brush strokes. By all means - "hearing really good things" is a great reason for Dr. Trump to take the drug and try to sell the public.


Yes, he's been saying "hearing really good things" since he read the French anecdotes about 20 people which the doctor who wrote it has said has no scientific value. It was really more a journal of his patients. The other favorite line is "I've got a really good feeling."

He's been exposed. Maybe he genuinely believes in the drug & is willing to risk making his heart condition worse. I still think he or one of his handlers has a stake in the manufacturer. Trump doesn't do anything that doesn't feed his ego or offshore bank account.


 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 09:28 AM
quote:
You said:

quote:
What we do know is that it doesn't work as a prophylaxis


I'm saying we don't know.

How do you know so confidently to put it in bold?


This is getting tiresome & insulting.

Rusty answered your question - it worked but it killed the patient.

 

True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 09:36 AM
How many people died where hydroxychloroquine was used in a study for prophylaxis? How do you know so boldly it doesn't work for prophylaxis use?

I am providing evidence we don't yet know the effectiveness of this drug for that use because studies are ongoing.

If you make such a bold definitive statement please be prepared to back it up...or else it will grow tiresome for you.


 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 12:09 PM
So now they are using malaria pills for prophlactics? Now ive heard it all
 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 12:43 PM

President Trump disclosed that he was taking hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) with zinc to protect himself against COVID-19—with the approval of his physicians. Although some in the media may find this startling or concerning, the Association of American Physicians & Surgeons (AAPS) states that thousands and probably millions of people worldwide are doing likewise.

In the U.S., however, patients and physicians who wish to use this long-approved drug, taken safely by 100 million patients over 70 years, are running into barriers set up by the FDA, governors, and state bureaucracies. Among the reports brought to the attention of AAPS is that of a family physician who cannot obtain HCQ for his nursing-home patients.

“It is perfectly legal for physicians to prescribe an approved drug for a newly discovered indication, and very frequently done,” states AAPS. “It is unprecedented for licensure boards to threaten pharmacists who dispense or physicians who prescribe ‘off-label.’”

“Basic science research from 15 years ago provides solid reason to expect that HCQ could be effective early in COVID-19, preventing hospitalization and death, and clinical experience from the U.S. and around the globe bears this out,” states AAPS. “It is not likely to work well in seriously sick patients, the only ones who can get it under the FDA’s emergency use authorization (EUA).”

In late April, the FDA issued a new special warning about potential heart problems from use of HCQ in COVID-19—which advises patients with other conditions to continue taking it because benefits exceed the risks.

“The benefit of potentially preventing thousands of hospitalizations and deaths vastly exceeds the risks of HCQ, which has an outstanding safety record,” states AAPS. “And if President Trump’s doctor can prescribe it, why can’t yours?”

The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) has represented physicians of all specialties in all states since 1943. The AAPS motto is omnia pro aegroto, meaning everything for the patient.

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 12:45 PM
Turkish company develops hydroxychloroquine drug
Hydroxychloroquine is being used by doctors to treat COVID-19 symptoms

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/turkish-company-develops-hydroxychloroquine -drug/1834022



 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 12:46 PM
French doctors renew bid to clear HCQ to treat Covid-19 ahead of lockdown exit

http://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20200505-french-doctors-renew-push-to-clear-mal aria-drug-hydroxychloroquine-to-secure-covid-19-lockdown-exit


 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 01:02 PM
So I think Trump is a moron but I have included the 3 articles above to ask how did this drug discussion become all about Trump? Amd to show I don't have any agenda here beyond asking that question here is an article why New York doctors have moved away from using it.

from the article linked below.

It wasn’t just Trump: Governor Andrew Cuomo also expressed optimism about hydroxychloroquine’s potential. But studies, including one that looked at 600 patients in the New York City area, were inconclusive.

“Basically it was not seen as a positive. Not seen as a negative. And didn’t really have much of an effect on the recovery rate,” Cuomo said of the results during a CNN town hall on April 23.

https://www.ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2020/05/07/hospitals-in-nyc-aband on-hydroxychloroquine-treatment-touted-by-trump-

 

True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 01:13 PM
hopefully this will kill him, could we be that lucky?.
 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 01:19 PM
The drug has been around for decades. It is not going to kill Trump.
 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 01:49 PM
My buddies wife was put on it for lupus, caused a serious Cardiac Arythmia in her?.........joe


 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 03:04 PM
I have a little knowledge here in that when I am not posting on message boards, my day job is a cardiologist.

Chloroquine can cause changes in the EKG that can lead to lethal arrhythmias. People taking it should have ekgs monitored on a semi regular basis. If they are taking 2 drugs that cause the same thing, for example azithromycin, the drug that was initially used with chloroquin, then the risks are higher. Other drugs or other conditions can increase the risk.

Is it a dangerous drug? In the grand scheme of things, when given properly, no. Certain situations are riskier than others and more caution is required.

Have people died from it? yes

Should Trump be taking it? Studies are being done to see what the benefit of it is. Right now, it shouldn't be given for covid 19 unless the patient is part of a clinical trial.

Personally, I don't give a **** if he is taking it. I don't think he, or anyone, should be espousing it publicly because we just don't know. That's not a political statement (discolsure - I hate him) but we just can't state one way or the other if there is a benefit. The initial report was promising, later data less so. There have been MANY times where initial data looked good, but when put to the proper test it didn't pan out. We don't know. It's not benign.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by stormyrider]

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 03:11 PM
quote:
I have a little knowledge here in that when I am not posting on message boards, my day job is a cardiologist.

Chloroquine can cause changes in the EKG that can lead to lethal arrhythmias. People taking it should have ekgs monitored on a semi regular basis. If they are taking 2 drugs that cause the same thing, for example azithromycin, the drug that was initially used with chloroquin, then the risks are higher. Other drugs or other conditions can increase the risk.

Is it a dangerous drug? In the grand scheme of things, when given properly, no. Certain situations are riskier than others and more caution is required.

Have people died from it? yes

Should Trump be taking it? Studies are being done to see what the benefit of it is. Right now, it shouldn't be given for covid 19 unless the patient is part of a clinical trial.

Personally, I don't give a **** if he is taking it. I don't think he, or anyone, should be espousing it publicly because we just don't know. That's not a political statement (discolsure - I hate him) but we just can't state one way or the other if there is a benefit. The initial report was promising, later data less so. There have been MANY times where initial data looked good, but when put to the proper test it didn't pan out. We don't know. It's not benign.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by stormyrider]


I get all that and agree ( heck we can even take Trump's name out entirely ) that no President should be advocating for a particular drug in this way. Do you agree though that it is unfortunate that this drug is now largely being discussed only though a filter of Trimp says blah blah? There are clearly doctors who are not crazy quacks who do still think this is useful in early treatment of covid patients.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 03:12 PM
^ @stormyrider . Kind of a buzzkill when once every few years someone posts and actually knows what they are talking about. Kills the whole Bedlam idiot say whatever the hell BS we want feel of the place that makes it so much fun.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by BrerRabbit]

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 03:14 PM
It's becoming more and more obvious that this whole thing is an elaborate hoex by Trump to sell Hydrochloiriqine.
 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 03:18 PM
Now we are talking. Damn, was making me nervous there for a sec - people actually making sense.
 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 03:36 PM
quote:
quote:
I have a little knowledge here in that when I am not posting on message boards, my day job is a cardiologist.

Chloroquine can cause changes in the EKG that can lead to lethal arrhythmias. People taking it should have ekgs monitored on a semi regular basis. If they are taking 2 drugs that cause the same thing, for example azithromycin, the drug that was initially used with chloroquin, then the risks are higher. Other drugs or other conditions can increase the risk.

Is it a dangerous drug? In the grand scheme of things, when given properly, no. Certain situations are riskier than others and more caution is required.

Have people died from it? yes

Should Trump be taking it? Studies are being done to see what the benefit of it is. Right now, it shouldn't be given for covid 19 unless the patient is part of a clinical trial.

Personally, I don't give a **** if he is taking it. I don't think he, or anyone, should be espousing it publicly because we just don't know. That's not a political statement (discolsure - I hate him) but we just can't state one way or the other if there is a benefit. The initial report was promising, later data less so. There have been MANY times where initial data looked good, but when put to the proper test it didn't pan out. We don't know. It's not benign.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by stormyrider]


I get all that and agree ( heck we can even take Trump's name out entirely ) that no President should be advocating for a particular drug in this way. Do you agree though that it is unfortunate that this drug is now largely being discussed only though a filter of Trimp says blah blah? There are clearly doctors who are not crazy quacks who do still think this is useful in early treatment of covid patients.


agree - the conversation has been taken to the wrong place. imo that's partlu Trumps fault, but partly all of us and the media.
and yes, I'm sure there are well intentioned docs who are prescibing it. I'm not being critical of them per se.
There was a huge rush on the drug when this first hit the news. Everyone wanted it, so people like crazyjoe's wife who have been on it and needed it couldn't get it.
The Gov of NH actually prohibited docs from prescribing it to new patients who weren't in a trial.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 03:50 PM
quote:

The Gov of NH actually prohibited docs from prescribing it to new patients who weren't in a trial.


That doesn't seem fair. They are going to make Trump declare bankruptcy again.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 05:09 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I have a little knowledge here in that when I am not posting on message boards, my day job is a cardiologist.

Chloroquine can cause changes in the EKG that can lead to lethal arrhythmias. People taking it should have ekgs monitored on a semi regular basis. If they are taking 2 drugs that cause the same thing, for example azithromycin, the drug that was initially used with chloroquin, then the risks are higher. Other drugs or other conditions can increase the risk.

Is it a dangerous drug? In the grand scheme of things, when given properly, no. Certain situations are riskier than others and more caution is required.

Have people died from it? yes

Should Trump be taking it? Studies are being done to see what the benefit of it is. Right now, it shouldn't be given for covid 19 unless the patient is part of a clinical trial.

Personally, I don't give a **** if he is taking it. I don't think he, or anyone, should be espousing it publicly because we just don't know. That's not a political statement (discolsure - I hate him) but we just can't state one way or the other if there is a benefit. The initial report was promising, later data less so. There have been MANY times where initial data looked good, but when put to the proper test it didn't pan out. We don't know. It's not benign.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by stormyrider]


I get all that and agree ( heck we can even take Trump's name out entirely ) that no President should be advocating for a particular drug in this way. Do you agree though that it is unfortunate that this drug is now largely being discussed only though a filter of Trimp says blah blah? There are clearly doctors who are not crazy quacks who do still think this is useful in early treatment of covid patients.


agree - the conversation has been taken to the wrong place. imo that's partlu Trumps fault, but partly all of us and the media.
and yes, I'm sure there are well intentioned docs who are prescibing it. I'm not being critical of them per se.
There was a huge rush on the drug when this first hit the news. Everyone wanted it, so people like crazyjoe's wife who have been on it and needed it couldn't get it.
The Gov of NH actually prohibited docs from prescribing it to new patients who weren't in a trial.


Thank you for professional perspective. My contention is that no one would know about the drug except lupus & malaria pts were it not for Trump & his TV Dr Oz flogging it based on Trump's "good feeling."

My day job for the past 20 years as legal counsel includes supervising drug trials at 4 Manhattan hospitals, 2 in the Bronx, selected DOD hospitals & sitting on the IRBs for human research trials. I know what stops trials, I know what gets shredded, & I know what #s get "massaged." So, I'm more cynical & blunt that a physician.

In this case, the best that can be said about it is exactly what you said - "it's not benign."

After Dr. Bright was fired for not throwing $ at the drug & the 1st halted trial due to cardiac complications/deaths in April, it (& Dr. Oz) disappeared from Fox news. Other more promising drugs were given more research money & attention.The public heard nothing more until Trump announced he was taking it - after his exposure to COVID19 through his valet - & Dr. Bright's whistleblower testimony on the same day.

I was stunned that a man who has 3 categories of COVID19 risk - age, obesity, cardiac arrhythmia - would be prescribed the drug. His doctor - who may or may not be a cardiologist - released the statement that he & Trump had the customary risk/benefit analysis discussion.

As POTUS, Trump will be closely monitored. No one is concerned he'll die from the drug. What I believe to be the more likely outcome is that Trump's arrhythmia will worsen & he'll quietly stop taking the drug. As you said, we know that it shouldn't be given to people for COVID19 outside of a hospital or clinical trial.

I despise Trump going back to his alleged heydays in the 1980s in NYC. However, I don't think the US should have both a Prez & a VP sick w/COVID19. I've never understood why the two weren't separated from Day 1, why masks weren't mandatory in the WH, & why Pence's promise to wear a mask lasted 2 days. Both seem cavalier even after exposure.

The topic of this thread is whether Trump is really taking the drug or is it puffery. [I still don't understand Trump's fixation on the drug - & hence the puffery - unless he or his friends have a monetary interest in its success.] I found it alarming that the POTUS w/all his risk factors would take an at best "not benign" & at worst, potentially lethal drug knowing full well that what he does is copied by his MAGA supporters. He knows how influential he is to his supporters & the shortage of the drug for lupus pts is an example of that.

I don't think it's a good idea for the 2 leaders of the US to be at risk for COVID19 as a general principle. What I find egregious is his "what's the harm?" suggestion to his supporters when that most certainly is not the case.

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 06:33 PM
"What I find egregious is his "what's the harm?" suggestion to his supporters when that most certainly is not the case."

My PCP is also one of my best friends so I texted him (jokingly) as to whether I should start taking the stuff. His reply in all caps: HELL NO!!! He then proceeded into a bunch of DocTalk about cardiac stuff and I and a couple others (group text) had to tell him to ease up. Just kidding.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 5/21/2020 at 08:43 AM
40,000 medical workers to start taking it in the UK. Oxford study. A bunch of quacks.

UK healthcare workers begin COVID-19 hydroxychloroquine trial

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/uk-healthcare-workers-begin-co vid-19-hydroxychloroquine-trial/ar-BB14pbbA?li=BBnb7Kz


 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 5/21/2020 at 10:22 AM
^ Sounds like a solid unbiased study. Looking forward to the results.
 
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