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Author: Subject: Skynyrd. Dowd bashing

Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 07:18 PM
quote:
My apologies Old dog. Born in 1946 and need to get my glasses updated. I thought your handle was oldcoot. Isn't there an Old Coot on this weboard?

Anyway sorry for the oversight and mistake.


I was confused as well.

Yes, there is an oldcoot on this site.

Steve Cogley from kneebraska.

Great guy who I got the pleasure of meeting at the first BoboFest in Pixberg, 7/16/05.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 09:21 PM
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The first time I heard "Layla" I was on a hallucinogen and I had just been through having my heart broken. It was a shattering experience. In the years since, I have also thought that it was muddy in the recording and the mix, but I saw the Tom Dowd movie in which Jaimoe said that before Dowd would roll tape, he'd come out of the booth as the band played, stand by each musician, then go into the booth and reproduce as closely as he could the way they sounded in the room. Maybe that's the way the Dominoes sounded - lots of powerful powdered drugs, booze, a disgruntled Whitlock, a future murderer on drums, Clapton in a phase in which he wouldn't stop drinking until the last bottle was empty…and 22 or 23 year-old Duane Allman, as explosive a musician as I ever heard and a very powerful personality, dropped in like a grenade as he played with one of his idols. Maybe that record sounds hazy because a heavy and heady haze was swirling in Criteria Studios and Dowd nailed it.


I think that's the most accurate summary of the Layla record anyone has come up with in this thread.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by robslob]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 08:59 AM
quote:
Marley what is not respectful about it? Let me know and I will apologize. Are you saying I'm being disrespectful to Derek and Warren?

It's a little disrespectful to them, but it's probably more disrespectful to the people you're talking to. The 'problem' isn't that you like the first lineup best because 99% of fans probably do. It's that every time someone makes a pretty basic observation about the final version of the band, you have to chime in and say that it fell short of the original somehow and wasn't as good and everybody should agree with you. And even if people just say it was a very good band in its own right, you get sarcastic like you just did. Everybody has favorites, but this isn't a fun way to talk about music.
quote:
I am very fond of Derek and Warren.

I have to ask - are you? It feels like every time they're mentioned, especially with Derek, you feel obliged to say someone else was better.
quote:
Derek and Warren didnt create the twin guitar way of playing those songs the way the Allman Brothers do it

We know all this. Everybody knows all this. It's not going to be forgotten if you give us a little credit and assume we know this.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 10:57 AM
Marley to me Duane Allman had more swagger, drive and engegy than the others in his stage presence and playing. And the band, while several lineups were very good, was never the same after Duane died. But I posted earlier somewhere on here about Gregg saying Jack Pearson was the closest to Duane but it was actually Jaimoe. And I said wonder if Gregg quoting Jaimoe in his book was before Derek joined? Because to me, Derek Trucks is the seconding coming of Duane Allman.

Also yesterday on the Jesse Ed Davis - Statesboro Blues thread, I linked Derek and Warren doing excellent playing on Statesboro Blues.

I disagree with some I've met here that the last lineup is the best and better than the first and that Derek is the best guitar player the band ever had. I say Duane Allman was and Dickey was the most creative and came up with wonderful melodies and songs too that are huge for the band's legacy.

I object to those who say the last lineup was not recreating anything. Had no concern for what the original band did and the last lineup forged it's own sound, it's own music and wasn't copying or recreating anything. Standing on their own feet with their own way, covers and sets. That when they think of the Allman Brothers Band it's the last band which was the lineup that defined the band's sound and outlasted any other band using the ABB name.

I'm not saying you take that position and feel that way but to me I feel the legacy of the band, it's founding and the arrangements and original compositions of the band and the contribution of Duane and Dickey and Berry is being insulted.

To me, one can say those things about Govt Mule and TTB and it is TRUE about those bands. But NOT the Allman Brothers!! The Allman Brothers, it's arrangements, sound and how the old songs are played was created by the original lineup and the Chuck/Lamar band. Even The Brothers at MSG this past March was RECREATING what was original way before. Blue Sky, Jessica, Whipping Post etc followed a pattern, a musical arrangement created long before the last lineup.

I'm betting Derek and Warren agree with me. Derek and Warren are excellent musicians with tremendous talent. Both men were crucial in extending the Allman Brothers well beyond it's experiation date with very good RECREATIONS of what was created years ago.

Maybe I was imagining it but on the old stuff and even on the studio album Hitting The Note, I would hear Derek and Warren including Duane and Dickey licks. On the Fox Box if Warren isn't added licks Dickey often used on Jessica and Blue Sky etc, I would be shocked. Derek, Warren and Otiel were the ones looking for opportunities for Dickey to sit in or come back. Dickey wanted a personal call from Gregg and he and Butch didn't want to be on the same stage again, but I've always felt Dickey knew age and lifestyle had taken it's toll and he couldn't stand toe to toe and play on that level like he could with Derek in 1999, Warren in 1988, 89, 90-94. And Duane Allman 1969-1971. Back then Dickey could deliver the goods with his unique and melodic style.

No sir Marley. I have ears and I've seen Warren and Derek lots of times. They are two of the best gutarists I've seen. Can they play those live tracks on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach better than Duane and Dickey? I say no. I don't see how it could be improved. Those tracks are perfect. Like the Mona Lisa. But they could play those leads !! It would be different not better. I've heard Derek and Warren leave a trail of smoke on the stage. I think they are fantastic!!!

I apologise to anyone who thinks I'm being disrespectful to the last lineup. All the musicians in the last lineup are heros of mine. I was born in 1946 and got hooked on this band in 1970 and it was almost two years later before Duane died. To me, other lineup were carrying on a family tradition not creating it from scratch. If I had gotten bitten by this music in 2004 instead of 1970, maybe the last band would feel like they created this to me too. But if I becane a huge fan in 2004, I imagine I would be curious and buy Fillmore East and Eat A Peach and notice the old stuff is what I hear on classic rock stations.

Again I apologise to anyone who thinks I don't have tremendous respect for Warren and Derek. I've always seen their bands when they are close. I saw Warren in 1992 on his first solo tour and got him to autograph my copy of his new CD. He is a very nice man and a tremendous player and seems to have more songs memorized than anyone.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 11:13 AM
quote:
Original ABB = great!

Every musician who ever played in this band = great!!!

Leave it at that.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 03:16 PM
quote:
I'm not saying you take that position and feel that way but to me I feel the legacy of the band, it's founding and the arrangements and original compositions of the band and the contribution of Duane and Dickey and Berry is being insulted.

I appreciate that you acknowledged that. I don't know if there's anything I can say that would change your mind about this, but it's too bad you feel that way. It's kind of sad because everyone here has enormous respect and appreciation for what they brought to the band and what it did while they were in it. I don't know if you would enjoy this site more if you recognized that no one is insulting or diminishing them, but you might. Respecting later versions of the band and complimenting them for having their own strengths and identities doesn't bring down the first lineup in any way.





To me, one can say those things about Govt Mule and TTB and it is TRUE about those bands. But NOT the Allman Brothers!! The Allman Brothers, it's arrangements, sound and how the old songs are played was created by the original lineup and the Chuck/Lamar band. Even The Brothers at MSG this past March was RECREATING what was original way before. Blue Sky, Jessica, Whipping Post etc followed a pattern, a musical arrangement created long before the last lineup.

I'm betting Derek and Warren agree with me. Derek and Warren are excellent musicians with tremendous talent. Both men were crucial in extending the Allman Brothers well beyond it's experiation date with very good RECREATIONS of what was created years ago.

Maybe I was imagining it but on the old stuff and even on the studio album Hitting The Note, I would hear Derek and Warren including Duane and Dickey licks. On the Fox Box if Warren isn't added licks Dickey often used on Jessica and Blue Sky etc, I would be shocked. Derek, Warren and Otiel were the ones looking for opportunities for Dickey to sit in or come back. Dickey wanted a personal call from Gregg and he and Butch didn't want to be on the same stage again, but I've always felt Dickey knew age and lifestyle had taken it's toll and he couldn't stand toe to toe and play on that level like he could with Derek in 1999, Warren in 1988, 89, 90-94. And Duane Allman 1969-1971. Back then Dickey could deliver the goods with his unique and melodic style.

No sir Marley. I have ears and I've seen Warren and Derek lots of times. They are two of the best gutarists I've seen. Can they play those live tracks on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach better than Duane and Dickey? I say no. I don't see how it could be improved. Those tracks are perfect. Like the Mona Lisa. But they could play those leads !! It would be different not better. I've heard Derek and Warren leave a trail of smoke on the stage. I think they are fantastic!!!

I apologise to anyone who thinks I'm being disrespectful to the last lineup. All the musicians in the last lineup are heros of mine. I was born in 1946 and got hooked on this band in 1970 and it was almost two years later before Duane died. To me, other lineup were carrying on a family tradition not creating it from scratch. If I had gotten bitten by this music in 2004 instead of 1970, maybe the last band would feel like they created this to me too. But if I becane a huge fan in 2004, I imagine I would be curious and buy Fillmore East and Eat A Peach and notice the old stuff is what I hear on classic rock stations.

Again I apologise to anyone who thinks I don't have tremendous respect for Warren and Derek. I've always seen their bands when they are close. I saw Warren in 1992 on his first solo tour and got him to autograph my copy of his new CD. He is a very nice man and a tremendous player and seems to have more songs memorized than anyone.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 05:19 PM
Sure Marley. Thank you for the advice. I haven't seen the 4 guys I recall specifically here in the last few weeks and 1 in a year or more. To them the Allman Brothers is the last lineup only. After 2001 they forged their own sound, style, songs and identity that is separate from the original band. I felt it was an insult to even Gregg. The last band was still doing Gregg's songs the way the original band arranged and recorded them. And slowly more and more of Dickey's songs were being played the way the band did them years ago. Even old covers such as Statesboro Blues and Done Somebody Wrong are arranged the way the original band arranged them.

There are two classic rock stations I can pick up and they don't play the ABB in heavy rotation but when they, do it's always the original band or Brothers and Sisters. On deep cuts day I have heard Good Clean Fun, Seven Turns, Nobody to Run With and Soulshine. And those aren't by the last lineup.

Yes the last lineup and all the lineups wrote some new songs and added a few new covers but the big guns in this band has always been off albums from the original band and Brothers and Sisters.

The last lineup had great players and Derek Trucks is the second coming of Duane Allman to me and as you know, Duane Allman was Derek's biggest influence. He said just a few years ago in an interview its Duane Allman, Elmore James and some Eastern musicians. Derek also said these days he doesnt listen to other guitar players but horn players for inspiration.

To me its false and a red herring to claim the last lineup paved their own way with their own style and with their own music and sets and are not emulating or recreating anything...
but paving their own musical roadway and identity. That has to be impossible in a band like the ABB or Little Feat or Lynyrd Skynyrd. The big hits had already happened. I'm sure Warren and Derek and the current guys in Little Feat and Skynyrd don't feel they are severed from the original band and are paving their own musical identity albeit using the name of a diffent band from the 1970's!!

My zeal for the original lineup and how it felt when I heard them when I was 24 and 25 years old may have triggered an exaggerated push back from those guys I won't name because they thought I didn't like Derek and Warren. If so I apologise to them. I really like Derek and Warren and they have made it clear they love the original band and Duane Allman too.

Yeah guys I want to put this behind me. More of a misunderstanding I think.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 05:55 PM
I liked Ed King. I didnt always agree with him [On Tom Dowd, politics etc] but I will say this, Lynyrd Skynyrd would would have been much lesser of a band without his contributions. He was a fine guitarist, he had a hand in writing: Sweet home Alabama, Swamp Music, The ballad of Curtis Lowe, Sat. Nite Special, Whiskey Rocka Roller, Workin for MCA, Poison Whiskey. now do you think they would have made the big time without those tunes in their cannon?. Ed left the band after a drunken and enraged Ronnie Van Zant held a broken lamp to his throat and threatened to kill him after he broke 2 strings during "Freebird". Ed said he would have come back if Ronnie asked him, and apologized to him, he did not. the rest is history.
 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 06:13 PM
Did king come up with on the hunt?, great song and riff., very Kossoff like
 

True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 08:24 PM
quote:
Did king come up with on the hunt?, great song and riff., very Kossoff like
I believe Allen Collins took Ed's riff from [MCA] and inverted it for On the hunt. thats what I remember about that tune.

 

True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 08:43 PM
Ed King had the utmost respect for Duane Allman [huge fan] and he saw The Original ABB @ The Whiskey a Go-Go in L.A. in 1971 a few weeks before Duane's Accident.
 

Peach Master



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 08:51 PM
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Ed King had the utmost respect for Duane Allman [huge fan] and he saw The Original ABB @ The Whiskey a Go-Go in L.A. in 1971 a few weeks before Duane's Accident.


As did I.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 5/20/2020 at 08:52 PM
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quote:
Ed King had the utmost respect for Duane Allman [huge fan] and he saw The Original ABB @ The Whiskey a Go-Go in L.A. in 1971 a few weeks before Duane's Accident.


As did I.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 5/21/2020 at 11:19 AM
Two of my favorite concerts ever were the back to back nights I saw the Lynyrd Skynyrd Tribute Tour in 1987. Ed, Gary, Leon, Artimus and Billy back together. I give Ed credit because he jumped in and played the Steve Gaines parts and many of the Allen Collins parts from the first album....a talented eam player and he had the chops to pull it off.

Ed helped give Skynyrd that "pickin" strat sound between the Gibsons, much like Gaines did when he joined. Ed also played some memorable slide parts. He was much more than just a famous riff.

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 5/21/2020 at 11:48 AM
Ed King played a Strat everytime I saw Skynyrd. Great playing too. I think Gary was on a Les Paul and Allen was on a Gibson Explorer. I used to know a guy who swore he saw Clapton in concert many years ago and he played a Gibson Explorer.

The only time I saw Steve Gaines, he was playing a Strat. I've seen pictures of Ed and Steve playing Les Pauls.

 

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