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Author: Subject: Skynyrd. Dowd bashing

True Peach



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  posted on 5/17/2020 at 04:59 PM
Separated by 40 years as they are, it’s tough for me to conclude/compare who was better on the songs both bands played
I hear ya, nothing tops the original band for me either

But my gosh, the Dreams from 1998 Beacon - the whole band is feelin it, but Dickey is the star of my copy (doesn’t have a date) - it’s blissful playing - Jack’s is too, but awesome that Dickey got a chance to shine on it too

The TNMore from Meadowbrook 2009 - he sang it a million times, & all I hear in Gregg’s singing is how unsick & tired he is of it

I adore Instrumental Illness - their first one w/out Dickey & its fantastic - different, & ABB thru & thru - it showed how comfortable in their own skin they were

So each lineup was great & the comparisons, while fun, are also often futile for me
Yes those boys were trailblazers in every possible sense of the word alright - they paved the road, did the grunt work - beyond compare


[Edited on 5/18/2020 by Stephen]

 

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  posted on 5/17/2020 at 06:34 PM
One thing I do wonder is had Tom Dowd not been present for the recording of the one Derrick and The Dominoes album, would Duane Allman ever been involved? We all know the legend is Tom Dowd was the person who made the connection between Clapton and Duane.

Had it been a some other producer, with no history with the Allman Brothers Band, would Clapton and/or other members of the Dominoes attended the ABB show where the famous meeting occurred? Without the involvement of Tom Dowd there most likely would have been no Duane Allman. Ponder that for a moment....

 

True Peach



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  posted on 5/17/2020 at 06:53 PM
Duane was a well respected session guy by then, and The Allman Brothers Band was touring their asses off, and Duane found time to play live with Delaney and Bonnie, and the time of [Layla] maybe Duane and Clapton would have not played on that album together if it werent for Tom Dowd, no doubt about that.
 

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  posted on 5/17/2020 at 07:12 PM
No Chain I seriously doubt Duane would have. If it wasn't for Tom Dowd , Eric Clapton and the others wouldn't have gone down to the ABB show. Of course Eric a few years earlier called Atlantic Records' Jerry Wexler to find out who is playing guitar on Wilson Pickett's Hey Jude. And was told Skydog Allman.

Yes Stephen Instrumental Illness is very good. I think Warren and Otiel wrote that. Butch Trucks was pushing the guys to come up with instrumentals to replace Jessica, Liz Reed etc. Butch said on this website he himself would be involved in the writing of new instrumentals, so I was expecting to see his name of the album and was surprised it was just Warren and Otiel.

The last lineup certainly had the talent to make the latter day Allman Brothers all their own but never really put it together. They could have erased the original band to a big extent with 3 or 4 new albums of originial material including instrumentals on each album. Well I'm not sure anyone in the last lineup would have wrote some stuff that would sunset Jessica and Elizabeth Reed from the band's legacy and fan demand as Butch wanted. And when they returned Blue Sky, the audience reaction was incredible. It was clear expunging Dickey from the band's legacy or not...people expected to hear Blue Sky at a show called the Allman Brothers Band. A lot of the original band stuff is so good and long part of the band's musical legacy it would be real hard to remove it from the band's fanbase as Fleetwood Mac did with the Stevie Nix era. The fans who bought the albums with Stevie Nicks on them cared little about the original band and the original band was basically erasee from that band's legacy to me.

Derek and Warren assumed they would sunset the band in 2009 but Butch talked then into going another 5 years and on Butch's blog by 2011 he was getting complaints about Gregg's subpar performances at the Beacon. But Butch said he had NO control over how Gregg Allman sounds so don't come if you don't like it. In short the last lineup never shifted the legacy and reputation of the band's catalog forward and away from the original band and the Brothers and Sister's lineup. I think Warren and Derek was willing but they just couldn't get another album done not to mention 3 or 4 after Hitting The Note. But it would still be a tall order because the old stuff by the ABB is so popular with the fans and from their best selling albums not to mention how good the original band played on those albums and how groundbreaking what Duane and Dickey did in creating that ABB twin lead style.

[Edited on 5/18/2020 by blackey]

[Edited on 5/18/2020 by blackey]

 

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  posted on 5/17/2020 at 08:25 PM
quote:
No Chain I seriously doubt Duane would have. If it wasn't for Tom Dowd , Eric Clapton and the others wouldn't have gone down to the ABB show. Of course Eric a few years earlier called Atlantic Records' Jerry Wexler to find out who is playing guitar on Wilson Pickett's Hey Jude. And was told Skydog Allman.

Yes Stephen Instrumental Illness is very good. I think Warren and Otiel wrote that. Butch Trucks was pushing the guys to come up with instrumentals to replace Jessica, Liz Reed etc. Butch said on this website he himself would be involved in the writing of new instrumentals, so I was expecting to see his name of the album and was surprised it was just Warren and Otiel.

The last lineup certainly had the talent to make the latter day Allman Brothers all their own but never really put it together. They could have erased the original band to a big extent with 3 or 4 new albums of originial material including instrumentals on each album. Well I'm not sure anyone in the last lineup would have wrote some stuff that would sunset Jessica and Elizabeth Reed from the band's legacy and fan demand as Butch wanted. And when they returned Blue Sky, the audience reaction was incredible. It was clear expunging Dickey from the band's legacy or not...people expected to hear Blue Sky at a show called the Allman Brothers Band. A lot of the original band stuff is so good and long part of the band's musical legacy it would be real hard to remove it from the band's fanbase as Fleetwood Mac did with the Stevie Nix era. The fans who bought the albums with Stevie Nicks on them cared little about the original band and the original band was basically erasee from that band's legacy to me.

Derek and Warren assumed they would sunset the band in 2009 but Butch talked then into going another 5 years and on Butch's blog by 2011 he was getting complaints about Gregg's subpar performances at the Beacon. But Butch said he had NO control over how Gregg Allman sounds so don't come if you don't like it. In short the last lineup never shifted the legacy and reputation of the band's catalog forward and away from the original band and the Brothers and Sister's lineup. I think Warren and Derek was willing but they just couldn't get another album done not to mention 3 or 4 after Hitting The Note. But it would still be a tall order because the old stuff by the ABB is so popular with the fans and from their best selling albums not to mention how good the original band played on those albums and how groundbreaking what Duane and Dickey did in creating that ABB twin lead style.

[Edited on 5/18/2020 by blackey]

[Edited on 5/18/2020 by blackey]
Duane had the backing of Ahmet Ertegun, Jerry Wexler, and Phil Walden, he most certainly would have "made it" without Tom Dowd, but Tom did help put Eric and Duane together.

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 07:26 AM
From Dana Dowd on facebook:

quote:
Wow, just wow are we really re-addressing this?!?! The Steve Hoffman Forum and Ed King all in one! hahahaha....... I have so much to say and truly very little. I will let Uncle Butch's words hold true to my fathers defense. And as I said at Uncle Butch's memorial the man was loyal to a fault. The guy who wrote one famous song in the 60's "Peppermint and Incense" and one famous guitar riff in the 70's and never actually worked in the studio with my father has what creditability? He doesn't (god bless his dead pathetic soul). The ONLY time Ed King ever worked in the studio with my father was "Lynyrd Skynyrd 1991" and he wrote him very kind words in thanks to him after (which I have). My assumption is that Ed was friends with Al Kooper who got angry because Al claimed my father said he discovered Lynyrd Skynyrd in my fathers documentary, which was never said. But Al's ego clearly interpreted it that way. Re: Ronnie getting angry with my father was not the case. It is very personal and my father walked away from the Street Survivors project because of a very personal dispute, but he actually saved the project when it was in the mixing stages as they had messed it up. The less personal part my father talks about in his memoirs which will be published in approximately 2022. The personal stuff remains personal. It was taken to Ronnie's and my fathers grave along with a few of us in the know. I will say that the only producer Ronnie's widow Judy thanks at the Skynyrd R&RHOF induction was my father,, so that speak mountains to that.
Bobby Whitlock bashing my father and claiming he and Eric Produced Layla? HAHAHA (NO COMMENT). What do Eric and Duane say? I think I'll trust those accounts.
As far as the Steve Hoffman Forum goes, there is so much Tom Dowd bashing on there it is hysterical how guys who come up in the industry on automated Neve boards and such want to bash the man who started with rotary knobs and direct to disc and at Atlantic has to move office furniture to make a makeshift studio at night until Atlantic finally let him build a proper studio where he conceptualized the linear fader console and racking systems in the late 1950's that are still used as industry standards today. There was minimal sound isolation when most of those records they initially bash were made and the recording technology was 2 and 4 track onto 8 track in makeshift studios with NO automation in most cases. So let them all bash their silly heads around. None of them invented linear faders or knew how to shellac a room to prevent sound bleed let alone cut direct to disk. I will pray for them!

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 09:24 AM
quote:
Stephen the 21st century Allman Brothers created and forged it's own sound and idenity? And irrespective of what the original band and Duane and Dickey did? So to you the Allman Brothers is the 21st century band and the original band was a different, separate unit that just happened to use the same name?

Well what was the deal with pictures of the original band on the screen behind them? And what are they doing playing all those songs from the original band or the Chuck Lamar lineup? Why didn't they created their own just as Butch wanted ( except with Butch it was only Dickey's songs he wanted axed).

I guess that is why Derek and Warren never topped what Dickey and Duane did with those songs on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach. Derek and Warren were trying to forge and create the new band's sound from scratch and it just fell a little short.

Link me a One Way Out, Statesboro Blues, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, You Don't Love Me etc by the 21st century band that tops what is on those live tracks from 1971 and 72. Love to hear it.

And I say that with all due respect to Derek and Warren who are fantastic players.

This isn't respectful even though you threw in a "with all due respect" at the end.

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 09:42 AM
I guess that is why Derek and Warren never topped what Dickey and Duane did with those songs on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach. Derek and Warren were trying to forge and create the new band's sound from scratch and it just fell a little short.
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________

I really don't understand your reasoning sometimes. I don't believe they were trying to top them, they were carrying the torch in addition to creating some incredible new music that is the ABB sound to some. To me it is all the same. Just different players continuing the sound, my mood dictates which version of the band to listen to but it is all the ABB.

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 09:51 AM
Marley, Blackey could turn a post about cornflakes into the original ABB being better than anyone and that there is no comparison to later editions. No matter how hard you try to say beauty is in the ear of the beholder he will just continue on his way. He simply can't conceive of anyone disagreeing with him. I have said on more than 1 occasion that IMHO Derek trucks is the best guitar player ever in the ABB. Does that mean he is "better" , no, it just means I like him better. With regard to the material, what seems left out is that both Warren and Derek had their own bands during their ABB tenure and I would say most of their material went to those bands, not ABB. Another point to note was the original guys were in their 60's approx. when the last guys played with them. If it wasn't for the family connection I don't think Derek would have stayed on near as long as he did. I say this as a person who saw the original band twice with one being the seminal Fillmore concert. I love the original band but they require no defense nor a put down of the later editions. The ABB was lucky to get Warren and Derek and they created some beautiful music. I will leave it at that as these " best " arguments leave me cold.
 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 11:47 AM
Marley what is not respectful about it? Let me know and I will apologize. Are you saying I'm being disrespectful to Derek and Warren?

I am very fond of Derek and Warren. Just the facts ma'am. Derek and Warren didnt create the twin guitar way of playing those songs the way the Allman Brothers do it...it was Duane and Dickey. And they didn't write ANY of the songs on Fillmore East, Eat A Peach and Brothers and Sisters. Isn't it obivious their job was to RECREATE Duane and Dickey's parts with the freedom of putting their own stamp on the solos? But the structure of those classic songs sounded the same to me whether original band or last lineup.

Derek and Warren didn't top what Duane and Dickey did on the live tracks on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach because Duane and Dickey played perfectly with fire and energy ( especially Duane) and set an awfully high bar on those songs. It would be like Derek and Warren being asked to improve the Mona Lisa if they were painters. It's already perfect. How would one decide where the guitars on Statesboro Blues on Fillmore East be improved? How could the singing Gregg does be improved. How could Humphrey Bogart's performance in Casablanca be improved even if you think Tom Cruise is a better actor??

All they could do is the same Jack Pearson could do. Put their own spin on it and give their interpretation of classic playing on classic songs.

Would a young Dickey and an alive Duane top what Warren did in Gov't Mule or Derek in TTB? No. Or Lowell George in Little Feat? No. It's already done to perfection. Ready to play and listen.

When I say Warren and Derek fell a little short of Duane and Dickey I'm actually talking about Gregg and Dickey. Firing Line, Bag End etc etc are real good. But the last lineup never came up with something that tops Dreams, Whipping Post, Blue Sky, Jessica, Southbound, Ain't Waisting Time No More etc etc. That is what I'm addresing. Not talking licks. That is subjective and as Old Coot pointed out is different to each person. There are people who think Fillmore East and all lineups are boring or too heavy or just not their kind of music. I knew a guy from Minnesota who only liked Guy Lombard and Poka Music and could stand the ABB or J. Gilles.

And I may add Dickey had Seven Turns and Dickey and Warren had True Gravity but Gregg and Dickey didn't top what they wrote back then either to me. And Dickey didn't play as well as Dickey as the band got around the 40th anniversary except some nights he could still bring it pretty good.

Old Coot it's fine you think Derek is the best guitar player ever in the ABB. I like Duane Allman the best for really putting the petal to the metal. Link me a Liz Reed solo from Derek so I can listen then listen to Duane on Liz Reed from Fillmore East. No doubt it would be a close hores race because Derek is that good. Indeed Duane was a huge influence on Derek was he not?

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 11:58 AM
Why would anyone link you to any solo or performance blackey? Every single one of us KNOWS exactly what you would post no matter what was linked so talk about a waste of time. We all have our opinions. You seem to be the one who confuses your opinion as though they were actual facts.
 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 12:00 PM
quote:
As far as the Steve Hoffman Forum goes, there is so much Tom Dowd bashing on there it is hysterical how guys who come up in the industry on automated Neve boards and such want to bash the man who started with rotary knobs and direct to disc and at Atlantic has to move office furniture to make a makeshift studio at night until Atlantic finally let him build a proper studio where he conceptualized the linear fader console and racking systems in the late 1950's that are still used as industry standards today. There was minimal sound isolation when most of those records they initially bash were made and the recording technology was 2 and 4 track onto 8 track in makeshift studios with NO automation in most cases. So let them all bash their silly heads around. None of them invented linear faders or knew how to shellac a room to prevent sound bleed let alone cut direct to disk. I will pray for them.


Waaaahhooooo! Excellent smackdown, puttin the baby to BED! Dont waste your prayers on em tho, Steve Hoffman Forum was conceded to the underworld years ago.

Layla shmayla, moot point for me - my favorite Tom Dowd work by miles is Dusty In Memphis

 

True Peach



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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 12:30 PM
God bless ya blackey for your passion
your posts today are Identical to past years, & in years to come - no different, & that’s a good thing -

Too heavy on the comparing tho - can’t begrudge people their tastes - I dig my 2004 shows, & other new-century ABB, as much as any, & Nobody Knows is the best studio thing they ever did - to my ears

Saying how much you like W & D, then following with “falling short” “not as good” “recreating” & generally dismissing them etc, doesn’t sit well

Respects to you, one of few here who saw the original band

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 01:37 PM
Stephen Old Coot saw the original band including one of the shows used on the Fillmore Album and OC thinks Derek is the best guitar to ever be in the band.

You see when I saw the ABB those times back then they and me were early 20's. I'm 73 now. I had never heard a band play like that or those songs , Dreams, Whipping Post, Elizabeth Reed etc etc before. What I experienced was new and made a huge impression on me. And to me. Duane Allman had so much swagger, drive and energy in his playing. Just set the stage on fire and the other 5 right there with him.

When I went to see other lineups except the Chuck/Lamar Brothers and Sisters lineup, that was a different vibe in many ways using the ABB name...one guitar, two keyboards, different style on bass...took awhile to take to it but Gregg, Dickey, Butch and Jaimoe were still there and it sounded like the ABB in places...but when I heard the Warren/Dickey lineup or the last lineup, I was hearding a recreation of the sound and songs I first experience 50 years ago! So to me it's a recreation of what was new and transformational for me musically and spiritual for me....and it's real good to experience it again by later lineups but it's not as good to me as the lineup I saw 50 years ago several times, a lineup that invented the Allman Brothers and those songs and their way of playing the covers on those albums and shows. No lineup can top the original to me maybe because it was the first for me with the ABB way of playing and vibe. You know no other band has that sound and vibe that stretched from 1969 to 2014. It hit me like a freight train in 1970 and it was new and spiritual.

My position is probably personal and mine only but in no way reflects on Derek and Warren or any of the great musicians who played in this band. The original band invented this band and those classic songs and that is what I fell in love with. But the original band died October 1971 and later lineups recreated and extended the ABB very very well and Derek and Warren brought that wonderful experience and music to a close in 2014 in fine order with reverence to the legacy.

Then we got that vibe again this year with the The Brothers at MSG. Only one original left but Derek, Warren, Chuck, Reese, Duane Trucks, Otiel, Marc knew what to do and they brought to goods to the stage. I thought it brought that special and unique Allman Brothers spiritual experience to my ears. I was extremely impressed and satisfied.

But 1970 and 1971 apparently will never be equaled to me. And it has no disrespect to Derek and Warren at all. I'm sorry it seems that way. They were not in the band in 1970 and that's all it means. And I don't buy the position the last lineup didn't recreated anything, they paved their own path with their own ideas and creation. To me that is BS. How can somebody listen to any subsequent lineup including the last play Jessica, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, Whipping Post, Dreams and say that??? I heard an ABB play all that in 1970. That is when it was created from scratch. Not in the 21st century which was RECREATING what was written and arranged years ago. At MSQ this year didn't they use the same arrangements on Jessica and Blue Sky from the 1970's??? Well?

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 01:44 PM
Original ABB = great!

Every musician who ever played in this band = great!!!

Leave it at that.

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 02:17 PM
Ed King was stupid in the way he criticized Tom, so I get Dana’s point...but she’s way off that Ed was simply 1 song in the 60s and 1 famous riff in the 70s.

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 07:30 PM
As long as we are on the topic of Tom Dowd and his work I will say I'm blessed to have seen the band half dozen times in '71 including the 3/11/71 F.E.show ( the added show, w/ horns, etc.) Adrian Barber who produced the first album got a sound out of those guys that has never been duplicated and me personally I'm glad for it.The material on the first album is "heavy" at least heavier than Idlewild and Mr. Barber did justice to all those tunes. I really have no idea what the first album would have been like if Tom Dowd did it., I'm just pleased with Barbers' work which does get overlooked. BTW Barber recorded the Beatles in Hamburg, not the F. E. but historical none the less.

 

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  posted on 5/18/2020 at 07:41 PM
That first record is scary good
 

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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 07:24 AM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Allman_Brothers_Band_(album)

Interesting info on the first album here. Now some Wikipedia info on any subject could be incorrect.

Apparently they were expecting to work with Tom Dowd but he wasn't available so Atlantic put them with Andrian Barber who has other interesting credits including the Beatles live in 1962, Cream's Goodbye, Velvet Underground's Loaded and Barber plays drums on two tracks. The Rascals Freedom Suite. Buffalo Springfield, Bee Gees and Aerosmith also produced by Barber.

Also I didn't know Tom Dowd remixed the first album for it's 1973 rerelease with Idlewild South as Beginnings. The individual releases of the first two were not successful but Beginnings was earning a gold record for sales in excess of 500,000 copies.

Gregg didn't like his vocals and wished later he had not given in to Barber that they didn't need to be redone. I like Gregg's singing on the first album. Gregg also was spooked by a red light that came on when he began to sing so he unscrewed the bulb.

Dickey, Jaimoe and Berry were inexperienced with a big recording studio but not intimidated.

Surprisingly Duane struggled with his solo on Dreams. Duane finally turned off all the lights and sat alone behind his amp and recorded. Butch said it was so beautiful it brought tears to his eyes and Everytime they played music on that level, it just came out of nowhere, on the spot and unrehearsed.

There is Please Call Home on Idlewild South that was recorded at Regency Studio in New York and produced by Joel Down. They were said to have been in New York but Tom Dowd again was unavailable so they went in in July 1970 without Tom. I use to hear Dickey doesn't play on the track. It's all Duane. Perhaps this is the studio with no windows.

Dowd said the band was determined to build a following and Duane and Gregg were not interested in getting involved with a record compay that wanted to micromanage the studio looking for top 40 hits. Dowd said they didn't want a hit and would be happy with moderate record sales and build a following so they could earn 3 to 4 thousand dollars a show. Dowd said so they were on the road doing over 300 nights in 1970 so they popped in and out to record the second album in Macon, Miami and one track in New York City.

 

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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 08:10 AM
Very cool info blackey, thx for sharing - yeah to say Beginnings gave the 1st two records a new lease on life would be an understatement - nice essay by Jean Costa w/it

 

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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 08:22 AM
quote:
There is Please Call Home on Idlewild South that was recorded at Regency Studio in New York and produced by Joel Down. They were said to have been in New York but Tom Dowd again was unavailable so they went in in July 1970 without Tom. I use to hear Dickey doesn't play on the track. It's all Duane. Perhaps this is the studio with no windows.


I always thought Gregg was crazy to want to re-record the first album, he sounds great. But I totally understand an artist seeing the warts on their early work.

However, I can't think of a better example of Tom Dowd's expertise as a music engineer than Idlewild South. "Please Call Home" sticks out like a sore thumb, sonically. I'm not sure if it's really bad tape hiss, or if the mic is picking up the vibration of a snare, but it's present through out the track and mars an otherwise great performance. The piano sounds like mud. The rest of the album is nice and clean, can only imagine how much better it would have sounded had Tom Dowd been in the room.

 

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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 10:25 AM
Blackey you refer to me twice as Old Coot. Are you trying to tell me something? If so I'm not getting it.
 

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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 11:00 AM
But Gregg never sounded better than on Please Call Home.

 

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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 02:17 PM
My apologies Old dog. Born in 1946 and need to get my glasses updated. I thought your handle was oldcoot. Isn't there an Old Coot on this weboard?

Anyway sorry for the oversight and mistake.

 

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  posted on 5/19/2020 at 02:57 PM
The first time I heard "Layla" I was on a hallucinogen and I had just been through having my heart broken. It was a shattering experience. In the years since, I have also thought that it was muddy in the recording and the mix, but I saw the Tom Dowd movie in which Jaimoe said that before Dowd would roll tape, he'd come out of the booth as the band played, stand by each musician, then go into the booth and reproduce as closely as he could the way they sounded in the room. Maybe that's the way the Dominoes sounded - lots of powerful powdered drugs, booze, a disgruntled Whitlock, a future murderer on drums, Clapton in a phase in which he wouldn't stop drinking until the last bottle was empty…and 22 or 23 year-old Duane Allman, as explosive a musician as I ever heard and a very powerful personality, dropped in like a grenade as he played with one of his idols. Maybe that record sounds hazy because a heavy and heady haze was swirling in Criteria Studios and Dowd nailed it.

 

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White supremacists constitute the most compelling evidence against white supremacy.

 
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