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Author: Subject: Opening Up America Again

True Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 08:19 AM
More stories of businesses in Ohio making plans to reopen regardless of what Dewine's plans are on May 1.
 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 08:41 AM
The great re-open experiment has begun in some southern states:

SC allows dept stores & retailers who sell furniture, books, music, flowers, clothing/accessories, & sporting goods to open today at 20% capacity or 5 people/1,000 sf. Beaches will also open today at noon.

The questions are how many retailers will open, how many people will shop, who will police the capacity cap, & will there be a spike in cases in 14 days?

GA will allow tattoo parlors, hair, nail, & massage salons, bowling alleys, & gyms to re-open Friday with restaurants & movie theatres re-opening Monday. The governor expects to see a spike in cases but the state is "better prepared to handle it."

Questions here are how is GA & its front line workers "better prepared" given that there's no antibody test, vaccine, or treatment? The bigger question is how many Georgians are going to rush out to get a tattoo? Probably a lot of people will be rushing out to hair & nail salons. Even so, how many business owners are going to open w/o any change in preparation or treatment of the virus. The governor seems to think the risk of increased cases & health risks to medical staffs are worth the political capital he's making w/Trump.

These openings go against the recommendations of Fauci/Birx & Trump's official position. Trump's made no secret that he wants businesses open. Are these the kinds of businesses that are going to jump start the economy at the risk of lives? It's one thing for people to take the risk; it's another to expect medical workers to take that risk w/them.






 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 09:09 AM
quote:
It's one thing for people to take the risk; it's another to expect medical workers to take that risk w/them


thank you

not to mention the other innocent people that the risk takers may expose

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 09:58 AM
The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 10:06 AM
quote:
Things are getting weird. A health crisis and building civil unrest.


Never say the mass media hasn't done its part...

This would have never played out the way it has were this April 2021 instead of April 2020.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 10:26 AM
I tend to believe the "Experts" Doctors, scientists, and those who echo their facts. not trump or his enablers, struggling to hold on to power, even if it means YOUR family and loved ones dying for their selfish actions. Hearing "Ive got a hunch" from a know nothing, pumpkin head, like trump just doesnt do it for me.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by pops42]

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 11:45 AM
quote:
The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.


I saw interviews with 3 mayors of GA - Atlanta & I believe the other 2 were Augusta & Albany? None said that the gov of GA had consulted with them on this. None were in favor of this.

I also saw the graphic of Covid cases, and the chart was stil rising, and that only takes into account the small % of tests consducted to population. I don't believe the stats even meet Trump's guidlines. The gov opens up some of the most least social distancing businesses. So politics and economics first with health somewhere a distant third on the priority chart. Glad Gov Kemp is not the gov of my state.

The gov is going to either look like a pathway leader or an utter fool. Time will tell.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 01:43 PM
Yeah, I don't understand the choices for businesses either. Seems like small businesses and shops that don't service a ton of customers at a time should come first, especially businesses where customers would not touch all of the products while browsing. Things like craft stores, furniture stores, game stores, antique shops, etc. But movie theaters? They should be among the last businesses to reopen.
 

True Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 02:08 PM




South Carolina is trending down. Although I do not think anyone has yet to meet the full 14 day threshold. But those are guidelines, maybe some Governors will want more evidence than 2 weeks, obviously some Governors are going with less.

As has been mentioned, it really comes down to the medical capacity these states and communities within the states have. Nobody wants to willingly create more workload for health care workers and facilities, but it always comes back to what is acceptable risk? If we keep a stay at home order longer and then open up gradually, cases are going to go down and then they will rebound some when they open up. Or...they can open up gradually now rather than staying at home so the cases won't experience a drop, but maybe will stay steady instead of going down and coming back up? Maybe it's the same net result?

It's not just the Republican Governors now either.

Colorado (Polis, D) on April 27 is going to allow tattoo parlors, hair salons, one-on-one real estate home showings (no open houses), dental procedures as well as all retail may open for curbside pick-up and then allow in store retail May 1. And they are allowing child care to start back up April 27th. Naturally there are going to be certain protocols and restrictions, but these are big steps when there isn't evidence that now is the time to do it.

Colorado does not meet the criteria either:



Polis is giving his counties the ability to be more open or more restrictive as they see fit. It is going to spread, if infections reach a certain point, restrictions will have to be implemented again. How many will comply at that point?

ďNow it enters the time of individual responsibility and choices,Ē he said. ďAnd I trust the people of Colorado to make good choices.Ē

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 05:10 PM
quote:
I saw interviews with 3 mayors of GA - Atlanta & I believe the other 2 were Augusta & Albany? None said that the gov of GA had consulted with them on this. None were in favor of this.

And they're speaking out urging residents to ignore re-openings because it goes against "logic" & public health expert policies. Business owners themselves are refusing to re-open, especially in Atlanta where restaurant owners cite the health & safety of their staffs & patrons as a primary reason for not re-opening. Outlets of national chains of restaurants & gyms aren't re-opening. Kemp can allow businesses to re-open to give a false sense of economic resurrection but he can't force to them do so.


 

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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 05:54 PM
Never had a clue how critical and important Bowling Alleys, Massage Parlors and Tatoo Parlors to some of our Southern States?.............get em open!!!........I will take a rain check........joe
 

True Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 06:09 PM
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governorís order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area thatís not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 06:20 PM
As of today Georgia has 19,398 KNOWN cases, 774 deaths.

Without massive testing the real numbers of infections are unknown and they can infect others. Florida is now up to 27,058 and opening those beaches will raise that number.

People need to be patient to be safe.

 

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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 07:03 PM
quote:
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governorís order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area thatís not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]


Yes and no maybe! Colorado while in the continental us seems to me like BFE? I have been to Georgia? If indeed the case, then IMO the Dem Gov is mistaken and possibly weak kneed, ignorant etc, much like the Georgia Gov? .......Peace.......joe

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 07:05 PM
quote:
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

You pointed out the difference & it has nothing to do w/politics - GA isn't allowing counties/local leadership to make decisions based on pertinent data whereas CO is.

Data shows that African-Americans have been hit harder by COVID-19 than any other ethnicity & the mayor of Atlanta pointed to that as one reason she's concerned about re-opening there. Atlanta is more than 50% black according to 2020 census data (GA is 35% black) whereas CO is 4% black.


 

True Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 09:37 PM
quote:
quote:
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governorís order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area thatís not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]


Yes and no maybe! Colorado while in the continental us seems to me like BFE? I have been to Georgia? If indeed the case, then IMO the Dem Gov is mistaken and possibly weak kneed, ignorant etc, much like the Georgia Gov? .......Peace.......joe


Some rural areas of Colorado got extremely strict with their orders due to their lack of ICU beds and medical capacity to handle any kind of surge. When I say strict, I mean, like if you drove into a neighboring county and parked at a trailhead to cross country ski, if you did that in San Juan county, your car could be towed. And many mountain communities implemented "locals only" policy - like in Gunnison County non-residents were told to leave! Like get out, we don't care if you own property here, leave. So this is important context to understand the state has taken this very seriously, up til now. Colorado does not have better testing ability than anywhere else. And Colorado does not have 14 days of declining cases either. And yet they are relaxing. Importantly, the Governor does give local areas the ability to tailor their own restrictions as necessary, which is very good. But here, Colorado is not being led by science. It isn't just Republicans that are "rushing to open", granted, there are more of them and more Democrat Governors are in the wait-it-out cautious approach. Even though NY has opened golf courses and marinas. My Mom is in Florida. Their golf courses were open "with restrictions" to. Restrictions like 1 golfer per cart. Great and guess what, when they get out to actually golf it's a group of people bunched together like nothing is wrong. Will NY golfers be any different?

Here was my Colorado source by the way:
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/04/20/colorado-coronavirus-covid-stay-at-ho me-order-ends/
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/colorado-is-planning-to-r eopen-even-without-widespread-testing-which-experts-stressed-is-necessary

Colorado is taking "calculated risk". At some point we are all going to have to do it. Right? I want it, I just worry that some are moving it too soon. There's no way to control it nationally. Governors are going to do what they want. And people within those states are going to do what they want. All we can hope is that people and businesses take the appropriate precautions. Some will. Some won't. We'll get what we get out of it.

[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]

 

True Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 09:55 PM
quote:
quote:
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

You pointed out the difference & it has nothing to do w/politics - GA isn't allowing counties/local leadership to make decisions based on pertinent data whereas CO is.

Data shows that African-Americans have been hit harder by COVID-19 than any other ethnicity & the mayor of Atlanta pointed to that as one reason she's concerned about re-opening there. Atlanta is more than 50% black according to 2020 census data (GA is 35% black) whereas CO is 4% black.




You are right, I did point out the difference. And also what I didn't say is that we know Georgia is going just beyond hair salons and tattoo parlors. So it isn't quite apples to apples, but the apples and oranges are on the same shelf at least.

I will admit, I am guilty of watching too much CNN and MSNBC. I'm a news junkie and those networks are good at what they do, it appeals to me. And I just get used to seeing stories of Republicans doing things wrong and Democrats being the saviors. It's just stories about how, ok, testing...Trump touts all these tests, whatever the total accumulated total is, he boasts about it. And the media, correctly I might add, points out that it is not per capita, it isn't comparable to our population size and that of other countries. But then at the very same time, one of Rachael Maddow's favorite things to do (tongue in cheek, as in she appears to like running the numbers but I'm not saying she takes enjoyment in it), she often shows how many total cases we have in the US, a very large number on whatever night she is showing it. Then she shows all the countries of Europe to show just how many more cases we have, like cherry pick European countries and add it up and we have more cases. Know what she doesn't do? Put it in per capita context or as a % of overall population. If she did that then the US would be in line with European infections, but that doesn't fit the narrative. Per capita testing is the issue, but per capita infection rate isn't discussed. Or the meat packing outbreaks. South Dakota of course. Everyone is going to report that it is such a huge outbreak...and the Governor is a Republican who hasn't implemented stay at home orders when everyone said she should have. But while the Smithfield outbreak in Souix Falls is a lead story...similar outbreaks, like the one in Greely Colorado that infected hundreds, or the 4 meat packing plants in PA that had to close due to coronavirus infections aren't reported or mentioned with the same frequency or dare I say enthusiasm because...well some states have Republican Governors and some states have Democrat Governors. And some media outlets, some journalists and some opinion news "entertainers" have leanings and bias one way or the other.

It's fine. I watch it. I enjoy the programs. I just see stuff like that and it comes across in some of the things I post here.

So when Debra Birx gets asked tattoo parlors or hair dressers reopening, she is asked about it related to Georgia. They could've just asked about those businesses in general and her feelings on that, but no they said it about Georgia, as if Georgia is the only state doing this. Point being Georgia has a stupid Republican Governor and the other states, well they might have a smart Democrat Governor.

That is all.

Your point about risk groups among certain populations and the increased vulnerability they have to this virus is worrisome. Colorado may only have 4% black population, but they have a 22% Hispanic population. Hispanics in NYC made up 34% of the deaths (higher than blacks). So Colorado has vulnerable populations too.


[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/21/2020 at 11:15 PM
quote:
So when Debra Birx gets asked tattoo parlors or hair dressers reopening, she is asked about it related to Georgia. They could've just asked about those businesses in general and her feelings on that, but no they said it about Georgia, as if Georgia is the only state doing this. Point being Georgia has a stupid Republican Governor and the other states, well they might have a smart Democrat Governor.

I don't own a TV so don't watch any of the interview shows & I limit my news reading to twice/day. You have much broader knowledge as to specific reporters, questions asked, & media bias so I defer to you on that.

I do think the media misses fundamental questions. For example, I didn't see any analysis of the demand side of re-opening. Sure, a governor can say certain businesses can re-open but that doesn't mean the business owners & patrons are going to make it happen. Models from China show how the virus is transmitted in restaurants from one table to people 3 tables away. Restauranteurs are saying no way are they re-opening w/o testing for staff & patrons. Salons, spas, & tat shops require close contact - the opposite of the social distancing we know has flattened the curve. Not all business owners are willing to expose their staff or patrons to that. More importantly, how many customers need a manicure, tat, or restaurant meal so as to risk getting a deadly virus & passing it on? So how big a deal is it that a governor allows re-opening of some businesses?

The biggest question to me is why those businesses? If the point is to jump start the economy, those businesses are unlikely to have a big impact.


 

True Peach



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  posted on 4/22/2020 at 07:53 AM
You've correctly identified one of my flaws, watching TV! We all have vices.

You are right in that some or even most of these businesses who do open are going to have low level sales and activity. It's not going to Have much of an impact from a tax revenue aspect for the states either. Some of these self employed business owners say they have no money and for all the safety nets and aid either can't access or don't qualify. I've heard some call into our local radio show. People say they are dying financially. They might not care their income is going to be a fraction of what normal is. Right now it is zero.


 

True Peach



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  posted on 4/22/2020 at 08:20 AM
I did see that restaurant diagram yesterday of how a Chinese family infected other diners.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/health/airflow-coronavirus-restaurants.h tml

One thing I found interesting though is none of the 8 servers working the room got infected.

And the only ones who did get infected were immediately next to the seeders' table.

Clearly there is risk...there is some risk in the currently permitted activities under stay home order. Risk is going to increase as activity increases.

It might give some optimism though that by removing tables and spacing customers apart it reduces that otherwise increased risk, again since in the example only close tables got infected and there were a total of 81 other people (including the 8 workers) in the room that day who didn't get infected. And given the people at table A may've infected themselves before entering the restaurant, still 5 people got it. Will precautions restaurants take be enough? Will customers go? Will servers want to work? Would I go? I would consider eating at a large outdoor patio with spaced apart tables. But not now, not soon, at some point I will. Just have to weigh the risk and make a judgement.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/22/2020 at 08:44 AM
quote:
You've correctly identified one of my flaws, watching TV! We all have vices.

You are right in that some or even most of these businesses who do open are going to have low level sales and activity. It's not going to Have much of an impact from a tax revenue aspect for the states either. Some of these self employed business owners say they have no money and for all the safety nets and aid either can't access or don't qualify. I've heard some call into our local radio show. People say they are dying financially. They might not care their income is going to be a fraction of what normal is. Right now it is zero.

Watching TV isn't a vice. You're probably one of the best-informed posters. I've just always been a BBC-NPR/newspaper person.

The updates re COVID-19 programs from the bar association I get say employee relief is working & includes workers who normally wouldn't qualify for unemployment benefits. The relief programs for the businesses themselves aren't as successful.

From the interviews I've read & granted it's a small sample, business owners of the type allowed to open have expressed more concerns about risk than money. Most say their employees are covered through one of the many programs & have income through July 31. They're more concerned that there's no testing for who might be contagious & have to shut down in days or weeks so they'd rather maintain the status quo. They also have start-up costs that they don't want to see evaporate if they have to close again IF they can even get supplies. Some have just said they can't give a manicure, pedicure, or massage & be 6' away from their client & they know social distancing is what's saved us. Retailers would just be selling off current inventory as orders for summer/fall merchandise haven't been placed or have been cancelled. In cities like Atlanta, major department stores aren't going to re-open unless the headquarters opens stores nationwide; Neiman Marcus is set to file for bankruptcy this week (less to do w/COVID-19 than overleveraging).

https://atlanta.eater.com/2020/4/21/21228934/atlanta-restaurant-owners-reac t-reopening-dining-rooms-covid19

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/businesses-reopen-c losed-plaza-theatre-theater-theaters-cuttz-barber-chris-escobar-jayln-sizem ore-coronavirus-covid/85-298dc845-a4a3-4b5a-86d6-bfeb13910766

The flip side is small businesses along the GA coast that are eager to open for tourists as Rusty mentioned.

When I said these types of businesses aren't going to give the economic boost that Trump craves, I meant the stock market. A tee shirt shop on the beach & a tat parlor in Atlanta aren't making a dent there.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 4/22/2020 at 09:32 AM
Up here in the Watertown, NY area a local grocery store chain of some size and prominence was the location for volunteer anti-body testing yesterday. Public Health officials randomly asked patrons as they entered the store if they would like to volunteer to be tested.

I don't know the exact number, but the local news outlet that reported it and filmed some of the folks doing the testing i believe indicated the health officials goal was a sample size of 1,000 tests. There appeared to be lines of people waiting to take the test.

One thing I'm sure we're all witnessing beyond the death and sickness and economic destruction is the coming together by a lot of people to fight this pandemic. It's encouraging to me and I'm sure many others out there too....And it's not lip service on my part, I really mean it.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/22/2020 at 02:12 PM
quote:
NY rescinds do-not-resuscitate guideline during coronavirus pandemic


Thank you for providing accurate information. Not sure why that particular topic was posted on this thread other than trolling. It has nothing to do w/states re-opening certain businesses.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 4/22/2020 at 02:23 PM
The model used by Trump's experts indicates that no state should open before May 1 & most should wait longer. Specifically, based on current cases, Georgia shouldn't re-open until June 19, South Carolina June 5, & Colorado May 25. The model is based on the assumption states will have measures in place - aggressive testing, contact tracing, isolation, limits on the size of gatherings. If states don't have those protections in pace, a resurgence of cases is projected.

Projections for every state:
http://www.healthdata.org/covid/updates

 

True Peach



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  posted on 4/22/2020 at 05:28 PM
It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I'm not asserting that the states must follow the White House guidelines to a T in opening, but essentially, no state planning on opening is following the White House guidelines.


[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]

 
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