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Author: Subject: The NEW Impeachment Thread

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/21/2020 at 08:08 AM
For anyone willing to wade through them, the HR case for removal of office and Trump's defense case are both available online. Both are more than 100 pages, but the body of the HR case is in the first 50 pages. The defense ony has a few pages of Appendix.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/18/797600385/read-the-impeachment-managers-resp onse-to-the-senate-impeachment-trial-summons

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/read-president-trumps-attorneys -file-110-page-legal-brief-laying-out-impeachment-defense/2202064/

These written documents are essentially what each side will argue during the trial. The HR case lays out what Trump did that is impeachable, the evidence gathered in hearings that support it, and provides a history of impeachment & why the Founders were so adamantly in favor of having such a mechanism. It comes down to if the Justice Dept believes that a sitting president can't be indicted and the president refuses to comply w/subpoenas, then he considers himself above the law. The other key point is that the Founders feared interference by foreign governments in US governance & a president inviting foreign governments to interfere in elections is precisely why impeachment exists.

The defense case doesn't really address facts. It relies on the premise that the president did those things, but we don't believe it matters. It also repeats the fictional concept that the trial is about overturning election results; that is a complete fabrication. The election results put a president in office; impeachment is the mechanism by which a duly elected president who violates the constitution and/or his office can be removed. The Founders are very clear about that, having lived under mercurial kings with lifetime reigns & feared foreign governments interfering in governance when the king was weak.

Prof. Alan Dershowitz, who's been back-tracking about being on the defense team since accepting Trump's invitation to join, is trying to distance himself from the written defense case. He's even trying to pretend he's not part of the defense team - just a specialist on one topic. This is a man who defended Jeffrey Epstein, OJ Simpson, Klaus von Bulow, and Mike Tyson so he's not squeamish about his client; he's embarrassed by the weakness or lack of a credible defense argument.

I read the documents because even CSPAN coverage is unclear. Who knows what we'll actually see.




 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 1/21/2020 at 08:42 AM
quote:
So, McConnell's plan is for the senators to sleep through the trial according to his Organizing Rules. Each side gets 24 hours to present their arguments - over 2 days!!!! That's 12 hours of argument per day. Clinton's trial was 24 hours of arguments over 4 days for each side - 6 hours/day. Since the trial day starts at 1 pm that means they'll meet until 1 am. assuming there are no breaks.

I predict some pushback on that. I can't see 100 senators sitting silently in their seats w/o their phones for 12 hours/day.


Also saw where Mitch is working with Trump White House to take measures so that any potential testimony by Bolton is not seen by the public.

If Trump is so innocent, why are such measures being taken to not let the "picture of truth" be presented and seen by the American public and at reasonable hours of the day? Seems Mitch & the GOP are complicit in coverup and obstruction - no better than Trump.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/21/2020 at 09:39 AM
quote:
Also saw where Mitch is working with Trump White House to take measures so that any potential testimony by Bolton is not seen by the public.

If Trump is so innocent, why are such measures being taken to not let the "picture of truth" be presented and seen by the American public and at reasonable hours of the day? Seems Mitch & the GOP are complicit in coverup and obstruction - no better than Trump.

The defense isn't that Trump is innocent; it's that who cares? or as they desperately hunted for some legal reason to present, they came up w/the argument that an impeachable offense must be a crime - completely undercut by the writings of Hamilton, Mason, Madison, and Jefferson - never mind that obstructing justice IS a crime.

Indeed. By taking the "hide Bolton measure" in co-operation w/the WH, he's already violated the oath he took Friday to be impartial. Blatantly. McConnell is taking a very risky position to be Trump's lackey for someone who once was respected if not for his policies at least his leadership going back to Trump's earliest days in office. McConnell has money & can retire; why sully himself? This is when my imagination goes to he's afraid of Trump's ally Putin & how human obstacles to his goals end up dead.


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/21/2020 at 05:02 PM
I just listened to the amendment Schumer wants entered into the record. It was well written. After it was read, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell asked for a recess.

He wants the amendment tabled.

Some have complained about the trial starting at 1 pm and running for 12 hours. I see nothing wrong there. They can get sleep get up at a reasonable time, have breakfast between 10 and 11 or an early lunch, a dinner break and not deal with traffic and stress.

The House made compelling reasons why the State Department should be subpoenaed to turn over specific documents related to proving the first article of impeachment. The Senate voted against that. The State Department looks guilty of covering up for the President.

Pelosi has a kick ass group of Managers on this trial.



[Edited on 1/21/2020 by gina]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/21/2020 at 07:10 PM
You folks should be watching this trial. It is incredible.

Go to https://thehill.com

It's worse than Watergate in collusion allegations. It is scary.

Recess till 8 pm. Mitch McConnell just keeps wanting to table amendments Schumer is submitting to subpoena the entities of the State Dept., The OEMB [budget], Nick Mulvaney. Valerie Demings, Mr. Crow, and even Adam Schiff are on top of their stuff. The Republican lawyer, Mr. Sekulow could not adequately counter any of what was said. Out of desperation he said "where's that whistleblower?". This trial is like a grand jury/military court martial.





[Edited on 1/22/2020 by gina]

[Edited on 1/22/2020 by gina]

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/21/2020 at 07:41 PM
quote:
It's worse than Watergate in collusion allegations. It is scary.

America IS watching.

This isn't news. It's what has been said for months. What impeachment & now the trial has done is laid everything out for everyone to see w/o interruption by tweets or TV analysts or supporters. It's unadulterated facts. There are no valid defenses so all McConnell has is diversion. This is just the organizational phase. The actual case w/specifics won't start presentation until tomorrow.

What's scary is that the outcome is presumed to be predetermined to allow Trump to remain in office no matter how clear & strong the facts.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/21/2020 at 07:55 PM
People have to look at what he has done. His policies and ideas. Just this weekend he said he will not fund the seawall that NYC needs due to climate change. The Army Corps of Engineers spent considerable time submitting the proposal. His response was it was too expensive, bad for the environment so New Yorkers should just get their mops and buckets ready for the sea level rise and storm surge problems. It is even on his Twitter so we know he said it just the way it was reported. How do you write off 11+ million people effected by that?

 

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"Mankind is a single nation" "Allah did not make you a single people so he could try you in what he gave you, to him you will all return, he will inform you where you differed". Quran Chapter 2 Sura 213

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/21/2020 at 08:29 PM
quote:
People have to look at what he has done. His policies and ideas.

For the next two weeks, Americans & the world to some extent will be watching his trial. He has no policies or ideas. He has uncontrollable impulses & tantrums. That's who he is & has been before he was elected.

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 01:34 PM
Republicans are paving the way for future liberal candidates, like AOC, to work with other countries like Venezuela, to investigate Republican candidates. They are paving the way for the Senate to protect them. they are paving the way for the likes of Michael Moore or Al Sharpton to be viewed as perfectly qualified. I hope this tantrum and rebellion is worth it.
 

True Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 02:02 PM
quote:
People have to look at what he has done. His policies and ideas. Just this weekend he said he will not fund the seawall that NYC needs due to climate change. The Army Corps of Engineers spent considerable time submitting the proposal. His response was it was too expensive, bad for the environment so New Yorkers should just get their mops and buckets ready for the sea level rise and storm surge problems. It is even on his Twitter so we know he said it just the way it was reported. How do you write off 11+ million people effected by that?


"Stupid is, as stupid does". [Forrest Gump]

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 02:07 PM
Part of Trump’s evil genius is his projections of his crimes onto his opponents - now it’s the Democrats “rigging” the trial, despite McConnell stating he would work in conjunction with the White House counsel. Trump knows his followers will love hearing it.

Trump supporters are 100% unique in that they KNOW what they are doing is wrong - Like looters during a riot, they know it’s wrong but there won’t be any repercussions, so they do it anyway.

His biggest supporters know McConnel is rigging it, and they have fun accusing the other side of it just to troll. This will go down as the only time in American history when voters welcomed and helped a man who offered to turn the United States against one another and its own government. It’s one big terrorist organization, and they will all hide and deny their support in a few years out of shame. Many of his supporters are already ashamed to admit it in person.

I’m so thankful that I can be proud of my choices. Must suck to have to hide who you are.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 03:04 PM
quote:
This will go down as the only time in American history when voters welcomed and helped a man who offered to turn the United States against one another and its own government.


Could end up like Nazi Germany, with the free world coming in to liberate us. Like D-Day to end the Redhat Occupation.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 03:44 PM
IF the Republicans are innocent, they should answer the questions from the Democrats, and prove it.

Just refusing all the amendments offerred to the bill yesterday show they want to hide.

And all the Senators who just vote along party lines without giving any consideration to what has been presented are worse than liars, they do not represent the people. They only represent themselves. It is un-American.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 03:59 PM
He literally brags about keeping the evidence.

Trump Brags About Concealing Impeachment Evidence: ‘We Have All the Material, They Don’t’

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/trump-impeachment-evide nce-we-have-all-the-material-they-dont-941140/

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 04:18 PM
quote:
Many of his supporters are already ashamed to admit it in person. I’m so thankful that I can be proud of my choices. Must suck to have to hide who you are.

Schiff's opening statement was correct. The defense can't dispute any of the facts nor can they redefine impeachment. All they can say is "so what?" Yes, DJT's corrupt, he continues to ask for foreign interference in US elections, & the Senate refuses to remove him.

Whereas corruption & undue influence at the polls used to be domestic (poll taxes, literacy tests, deceased voters still on the rolls), the influence is now from sophisticated foreign meddling. What's that going to do to voter turnout? Why should I vote if the results are fixed by Russia or China or N. Korea? It really won't matter who votes.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 04:31 PM
quote:
And all the Senators who just vote along party lines without giving any consideration to what has been presented are worse than liars, they do not represent the people. They only represent themselves. It is un-American.

I get why Trump is scared - he leaves office & then goes straight to trial in any one of multiple jurisdictions investigating him.

What's w/the rest of them? Are their constituents going to reject them because they were Trump's lackeys rather than respected legislators? Big deal. Someone else will represent their state for 6 years; the world isn't going to end. No one is going to be as corrupt as that group of 52 glued to Trump/McConnell. It's not un-American; it's anti-American.


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 04:33 PM
Hillary is so pissed off with Sanders, she may run again and this time, she may win in 2020.

Meanwhile back at the Hill,

Republican Senator Rand Paul told the Washington Post on Wednesday that 45 Senators are prepared to dismiss impeachment charges against President Donald Trump.

"There are 45, with about five to eight wanting to hear a little more," Paul said. "I will push it at some point...The more Adam Schiff speaks, the more we become unified."

Republicans need 51 votes to dismiss the charges. Republican leadership has indicated they do not want to dismiss the charges.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/trump-impeachment-trial-day-latest-u pdates-200122140252975.html

 

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"Mankind is a single nation" "Allah did not make you a single people so he could try you in what he gave you, to him you will all return, he will inform you where you differed". Quran Chapter 2 Sura 213

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 04:39 PM
quote:
Hillary is so pissed off with Sanders, she may run again and this time, she may win in 2020.


No, she's just promoting her documentary.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 04:41 PM
It's like Hamilton was thinking of Trump back in 1792:

"When a man unprincipled in private life desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, possessed of considerable talents, having the ability of military habits—despotic in his ordinary demeanor—known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty—when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity—to join in the cry of danger to liberty—to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion—to flatter and fall in with all the nonsense of the zealots of the day—It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may 'ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.'"


 

Peach Master



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 05:32 PM
quote:
It's like Hamilton was thinking of Trump back in 1792:

"When a man unprincipled in private life desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, possessed of considerable talents, having the ability of military habits—despotic in his ordinary demeanor—known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty—when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity—to join in the cry of danger to liberty—to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion—to flatter and fall in with all the nonsense of the zealots of the day—It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may 'ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.'"


And there's never a denial by his own supporters that he fits this description - they simply say, "yeah, so what?" Do his supporters think they don't deserve better or something? If you choose to follow a person like Trump, aren't you saying that you don't think very much of yourself or the United States?

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 05:47 PM
quote:
It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may 'ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.'"

And there's never a denial by his own supporters that he fits this description - they simply say, "yeah, so what?" Do his supporters think they don't deserve better or something? If you choose to follow a person like Trump, aren't you saying that you don't think very much of yourself or the United States?


I maybe understood during the campaign that people who just saw the superficial reality TV star - brash rich womanizer - would eventually see that he was only a brash womanizer. Not rich. Not a great deal maker. Not even smart. OK. Maybe that gets him elected. Three years & dozens of examples of corruption & stupidity later, one would think they'd catch on. Apparently not.

The disheartening thing to me is that the entire GOP is willing to give him a pass even thought they see him deliberately "throwing things into confusion" at his whim. I'm beginning to think we don't deserve better because we're allowing a mafioso to run the country & hand it to Russia when he's done.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 06:11 PM
Wow that 1792 Hamilton quote is dead on. I wonder who he was thinking of at the time? Maybe a lot of people surfing the revolution wave.
 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 07:23 PM
Franklin's argument for including impeachment instead of waiting for the next election was more succinct: "assassination."

[Edited on 1/23/2020 by cyclone88]

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 08:40 PM
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Wow that 1792 Hamilton quote is dead on. I wonder who he was thinking of at the time? Maybe a lot of people surfing the revolution wave.


Well, he & Jefferson strongly disliked Burr....

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 1/22/2020 at 09:12 PM
seems pretty evident that the Founding Father's system of democracy can be compromised by corruption. it was never a fullproof plan. the only way the system can crumble is if bad corrupt people occupy the seats of power, and brainwash the masses to go along with it. and this is exactly what happened. i pray the deep state has Trump and McConnell under control.
 
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