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Author: Subject: Now we can impeach him - How long will it take

Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 09:03 AM
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The most interesting thing about this snoozefest of a "procedure" will be how many in the Senate cross party lines when it is time to Vote.


Nothing at all interesting about who crossed party lines as it was predetermined. McConnell decided who needed to do so to ensure their re-election (Collins from Maine) and who was immune from Trump's wrath as he was just elected to a 6 year term (Good ole Mitt Romney from Utah). The coward Lamar from Tennessee feared the wrath of the Republican machine and the Trump syndicate while the spineless one from Alaska is afraid of losing her seat.

McConnell of course blew the dog whistle a few days ago about "Not having the votes to prevent witnesses" just in time to get the Fox News crowd engaged enough to scare the you know what out of Lamar and Claire...In the end it's all about self preservation and to hell with the republic.




His name is Lamar Alexander, he is from Maryville, Tennessee. He previously was governor of Tennessee, President of the University of Tennessee, and Secretary of Education.


I would add coward and enabler to your list....Oh, and co-conspirator given he's failed in his duty to uphold the constitution.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 09:34 AM
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In all seriousness, why does the impeachment trial need witnesses? We’ve heard from Bolton. We know what he did. Everybody knows what he did. What more could witnesses add? It’s not a matter of whether he did it or not. It’s a matter of whether people care or not. Remember, he could shoot somebody in the middle of fifth Avenue and not lose a single vote. That is very very very true, so what is the point of witnesses?

It is not a cover-up at all by the Republicans. They are actually open and bragging about what they did. Nor are they denying any of the allegations. This is a direct and open statement to the world. The only way to fight back, per the constitution, is to vote him out. That is it. That is the only option for anything. The only thing we have to truly hope for, is that the United States government enforces a transition of power after his administration has ended. If there is one ounce of resistance from this administration when the time comes to transition the power over to the next president, then we are going to witness the end of the United States.



What anyone "knows" from media isn't the same as having it said under oath in the senate trial & preserved in the Senate record & record of the trial. When lawyers from either side looked back at other impeachment trials, they only had the written record. They didn't read the transcript & then say "oh, but my father told me (because I was 5 then) Monika Lewinsky said X on ABC news, too" or "My great-grandfather told me (because I wasn't born yet) everyone knew Nixon paid Rosemary Woods $$$ to lie about the tapes." The whole point of the trial is to be FAIR TO THE DEFENDANT. The facts are presented by witnesses who are then cross-examined. That was reason for impeachment - stop this rumor, lies, secrecy surrounding the Ukraine issue & have a trial where everything is on the record & under oath, the senators weigh the evidence & vote whether the prez should remain in office. The only official record of Trump's extortion from Ukraine is the impeachment trial transcript. The End. No Appeal.

So far, none of the senators have said anything in the trial - where it counts - that they "knew" Trump did it. They've said it via media but not where it counts. Starting Monday, each senator will be allowed 10 minutes to make a statement. Some may very well say "I believe the facts presented by the House Managers, the prez did it & tried to cover it up, but I don't think he should be removed from office." They could also say he did it & should be removed from office because it meets the constitutional standards or they don't believe he did it because John Bolton didn't come into the chamber & say under oath what the prez did. The issue was never whether the GOP tried to cover up; it was whether Trump - by ignoring subpoenas, refusing to provide documents, & threatening potential witnesses during the HR hearings - abused his position in order to cover it up.

There is an alternative - the judiciary. In this case, there were already trials underway about Trump's non-compliance w/the HR investigation. The HR decided NOT to pursue the issue of witnesses because it could take years for it to make its way through the courts. The president's lawyer told them he would tie them up for years & he admitted he said that in the trial.

The end of the US as we know it will be when ANY president says "I can do anything I want & Congress can't stop me because that's what was said in the Trump trial."




 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 09:38 AM
You can call him what you wish. I, in turn, think you are obviously blinded by hatred.To me, he is a principled man with a distinguished career. Read his statement. He offered no support for Trumps's actions.

"If this shallow, hurried and wholly partisan impeachment were to succeed, it would rip the country apart, pouring gasoline on the fire of cultural divisions that already exist. It would create the weapon of perpetual impeachment to be used against future presidents whenever the House of Representatives is of a different political party."

https://www.wate.com/news/national-world/sen-lamar-alexanders-full-statemen t-on-impeachment-trial-witnesses/

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 09:51 AM
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The end of the US as we know it will be when ANY president says "I can do anything I want & Congress can't stop me because that's what was said in the Trump trial."


Congress can, or can in the future, stop a President or remove him...it just depends who is in Congress.

I'm really not surprised that members of one political party are protecting their President. Why would partisan politics surprise anyone at this point? End the duopoly!

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 10:06 AM
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You can call him what you wish. I, in turn, think you are obviously blinded by hatred.To me, he is a principled man with a distinguished career. Read his statement. He offered no support for Trumps's actions.

"If this shallow, hurried and wholly partisan impeachment were to succeed, it would rip the country apart, pouring gasoline on the fire of cultural divisions that already exist. It would create the weapon of perpetual impeachment to be used against future presidents whenever the House of Representatives is of a different political party."

https://www.wate.com/news/national-world/sen-lamar-alexanders-full-statemen t-on-impeachment-trial-witnesses/


So because I observe that his loyalty lies with his party and not the constitution it must be hatred?

It's not hatred, just my opinion that his entire career has been enabled by his membership in the Republican party and in the end that's the group he sided with rather than the republic and the constitution he swore an oath to uphold. And the same party above the country attitude can be said for many Democrats too.



 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 10:14 AM
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The end of the US as we know it will be when ANY president says "I can do anything I want & Congress can't stop me because that's what was said in the Trump trial."


Congress can, or can in the future, stop a President or remove him...it just depends who is in Congress.

I'm really not surprised that members of one political party are protecting their President. Why would partisan politics surprise anyone at this point? End the duopoly!


I agree on the duopoly issue....I'm a registered Republican and am considering changing my registration to Independent as it's hypocritical of me to bitch about party devotion yet be a member of the same party.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 11:38 AM
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I agree on the duopoly issue....I'm a registered Republican and am considering changing my registration to Independent as it's hypocritical of me to bitch about party devotion yet be a member of the same party.

Excellent theory. If the party w/whom we're aligned ceases to represent our principles, then the affiliation should end. Congress seems to have lost the ability to produce bipartisan legislation it once had. It's worth considering whether elected representatives are acting in our interests or out of fear of party leadership's wrath. The only drawback of becoming Independent is the inability to vote in primaries in some states; that's a small price to pay.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 12:00 PM
I wonder how this situation would have been handled by the Founding Fathers. They were faced with extreme polarization of two sides as well. It would be interesting to see how they would have resolved the problem of a rogue executive.
 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 12:39 PM
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I agree on the duopoly issue....I'm a registered Republican and am considering changing my registration to Independent as it's hypocritical of me to bitch about party devotion yet be a member of the same party.

Excellent theory. If the party w/whom we're aligned ceases to represent our principles, then the affiliation should end. Congress seems to have lost the ability to produce bipartisan legislation it once had. It's worth considering whether elected representatives are acting in our interests or out of fear of party leadership's wrath. The only drawback of becoming Independent is the inability to vote in primaries in some states; that's a small price to pay.


Your last sentence is primarily the reason why i initially registered as Republican many, many years ago. Here in very rural, very upstate, NY, the Republican party rules local elections and most of local government and so I determined at the time that I wanted a small say in the primary process.

I did also believe in some of what the Republican party at that time at least represented but find the older I've gotten and the more the Republican party has drifted away from my beliefs the less I support it. Frankly I should have changed my affiliation a long time ago.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 01:01 PM
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I wonder how this situation would have been handled by the Founding Fathers. They were faced with extreme polarization of two sides as well. It would be interesting to see how they would have resolved the problem of a rogue executive.

They were snobs. They put impeachment in the hands of the most exclusive division of government - the Senate. They expected the Senate to be gentlemen who subscribed to codes of honor (good god, they still had duels), knew 1st hand what powerful monarchs were like, and were intellectuals. Almost all of them were lawyers & knew precisely why the constitution was worded as it was. [In fact, until the last decades most senators WERE lawyers (75%) - not that they're smarter than anyone else, but they know con law.] And, for good measure, they weren't likely to have any rogue executives electing affable guys like washington & drafting constitutional creators like jefferson when no one else would step up. An ungentlemanly businessman wouldn't have been considered for the presidency & in fact, Hoover was the 1st in 1928. In the event someone went rogue, the mere charge that he acted dishonorably would have him impeached & removed ASAP.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 01:12 PM
Has the NYTs decided what the Blockbuster revelation will be next Tuesday before the final vote?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 02:48 PM
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. . . Blockbuster . . .


The only Blockbuster I know of as a proper noun is Blockbuster Video. Blockbuster went out of business quite a while ago - matter of fact the last remaining Blockbuster is right here in Central Oregon, it has become a retro tourist attraction for millenials. I doubt they have much to reveal to the New York Times.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 04:32 PM
quote:
quote:
. . . Blockbuster . . .


The only Blockbuster I know of as a proper noun is Blockbuster Video. Blockbuster went out of business quite a while ago - matter of fact the last remaining Blockbuster is right here in Central Oregon, it has become a retro tourist attraction for millenials. I doubt they have much to reveal to the New York Times.


Maybe the Senate should go out of business like Blockbuster. That body no longer represents the "people" and abdicated its dutiful responsibilities to the Executive Branch. The Senate showed that that there are really only two branches - the Executive & the Judicial. If we blink, the Judicial may be gone too. That's what happens in autocratic societies.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 04:57 PM
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That's what happens in autocratic societies.


They know. No point in warning them - it is what they want. Trump is simply the figurehead of a grassroots fascist movement. More a return to monarchy. There was a demand vacuum for a dictator and Trump appeared. If not him it would have been someone else. They are done with democracy, it requires individual mind and conscience to function, and there is too much uncertainty. The main thing all Redhats want is certainty - even if what they are certain of is total bullsh!t.




 

Peach Master



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 05:41 PM
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The end of the US as we know it will be when ANY president says "I can do anything I want & Congress can't stop me because that's what was said in the Trump trial."


so you are saying that we've already seen the end of the United States? not to me. we've lost the United States the second there is any legal positioning to exceed 8 years in office. if Trump is able to sell the idea that a transition of power is a threat to national security, then democracy is gone. The right should remember that, despite "Russia if you're listening, I hope you find those emails", Democrats peacefully handed over power to Trump per the rules of the Constitution. I pray the right shows the same respect for the Constitution and their fellow Americans.

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 05:45 PM
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Starting Monday, each senator will be allowed 10 minutes to make a statement. Some may very well say "I believe the facts presented by the House Managers, the prez did it & tried to cover it up, but I don't think he should be removed from office."


this is what they all will say even with witnesses, is my point. they accept the charges by Democrats, but disagree that he should be removed; therefore, no need for witnesses. i do see why there is value to getting it on legal record, but it appears that the outcome would be exactly the same. i just don't see how or why witness testimony is relevant when the defense is admitting and accepting everything already.

 

Peach Master



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 05:56 PM
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I wonder how this situation would have been handled by the Founding Fathers. They were faced with extreme polarization of two sides as well. It would be interesting to see how they would have resolved the problem of a rogue executive.


i believe this is acting out exactly as the Founding Fathers intended - they just never imagined that the people of the United States would ever allow themselves to be brainwashed by an evil dictator. that's the only mistake the Founding Fathers made.

but this is exactly how it's supposed to work. this is democracy because it's what the people are voting for and continue to support in masses. trials have been held. due process is happening, and juries are deciding "not guilty". if the majority of the country was in fear and wanted Trump gone, then the Senate would have him behind bars already.

but the entire point of the United States and the Constitution is to build what the majority of the people vote for (the electorate v. popular vote is different story), and right now the majority supports Trump's vision and expanded powers. because the people are voting for it, because the Senators believe they will lose their jobs if they convict, it becomes perfectly legal, regardless of what's in the Constitution - because the Constitution can be amended with enough votes and support, which they have.

to manage a rogue evil President in the White House, they created the 8-year term limit. that's the last, final, only resort we have. it's the only thing left to protect. if we lose this, then we've seen the fall of the United States, and we'll all remember who the people were that wanted to destroy the free democracy the Fathers created.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 06:09 PM
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Starting Monday, each senator will be allowed 10 minutes to make a statement. Some may very well say "I believe the facts presented by the House Managers, the prez did it & tried to cover it up, but I don't think he should be removed from office."


this is what they all will say even with witnesses, is my point. they accept the charges by Democrats, but disagree that he should be removed; therefore, no need for witnesses. i do see why there is value to getting it on legal record, but it appears that the outcome would be exactly the same. i just don't see how or why witness testimony is relevant when the defense is admitting and accepting everything already.


I think you have a valid point. However, more witness testimony that supports the allegations against Trump may sway a few independents or even previous Trump supporters to vote against him this coming November.

But yes, Mitch McConnell and the spineless Republican Senators made up their mind that they'd exonerate Trump the second the House completed the Impeachment. The actual trial was in the bag immediately. I only hope the public remembers this travesty when they enter the voting booth.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 08:07 PM
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Looks like any President will now be allowed to do whatever he wants as long as his party controls the Senate.

Party over national interest.


I love this argument and point of view, the Democrats have accusations and "proof" lol, so therefore to disagree with us....

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 08:42 PM
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quote:
Looks like any President will now be allowed to do whatever he wants as long as his party controls the Senate.

Party over national interest.


I love this argument and point of view, the Democrats have accusations and "proof" lol, so therefore to disagree with us....


Don't forget witness testimony....From several people. A rather important thing to ignore in any trial.

If they were able to obtain it, I suspect there's documents, emails, texts, etc. to corroborate the witness testimony but little Caligula and his merry band of henchman (including the Senate majority leader) refused to allow such potential evidence to be provided to both the House and Senate....

Presume away that there's no real proof, but given the length dear leader has gone to suppress testimony and documentation from his inner circle, it seems pretty certain to me and many others that there certainly is...and probably a lot of it.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 09:13 PM
quote:
If they were able to obtain it


quote:
I suspect there's documents, emails, texts, etc.


quote:
Presume away that there's no real proof


quote:
it seems pretty certain to me


quote:
and probably


"if'
"I suspect"
"presumption of 'real' proof"
"pretty certain"
"probably"

"Pretty tough to argue with these points as they've been presented"

I "hope" you are not an Attorney

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 09:23 PM
Indications as of now point toward the same outcome as Clinton’s outcome 21 years ago almost to the day - acquittal - but there’s still time for more political football before next week’s Senate vote - that’s all it is - a political process

- if it’s indeed acquittal, the Democrats can then focus on Plan B, the election, as a means for removal

This is where I think Hillary Clinton could make a big-splash announcement of her entrance into the race

She went through the whole impeachment process w/Bill, she knows how the game is played, she almost beat Trump the 1st time, there’s no real Dem candidate of note right now, many still like the idea of a woman president, & her advisers might just be saying - “we could be the front runner almost right out of the gate”

But who knows

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 09:38 PM
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Don't forget witness testimony....From several people. A rather important thing to ignore in any trial.


They already forgot. And not ignored but an in-your-face upyours to this country. The behavior is worse than any of the impeachment charges. Anyone supporting all this obstruction and nonsense is on the wrong side of history.



 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 09:52 PM
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This is where I think Hillary Clinton could make a big-splash announcement of her entrance into the race


I've been saying this all along. She is truly the gift that keeps on giving....

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 2/1/2020 at 10:45 PM
Have another s'more, roast another marshmallow, tell another scary campfire story about THE BOOGEYWOMAN.

She is not coming back, relax.

[Edited on 2/2/2020 by BrerRabbit]

 
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