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Author: Subject: Fire Them All!

Maximum Peach





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  posted on 9/16/2012 at 08:29 PM
If there's any example to prove that public sector unions should all be abolished, it has to be the current Chicago teachers strike. I hope the voters of Chicago turn on these ingrates and punish them all. Unfortunately that's doubtful given the political alignment of the state. How the voters can stomach all the political and fiscal mismanagement there is beyond understanding.

So now they're not returning to work because they don't like the provisions on assessments? For all those who have worked in the private sector; when did you ever have a job where you negotiated how you would be evaluated, rated, fired, etc. These people are lucky to be employed. Their results are beyond abysmal, so no wonder they're trying to rig their assessment process.

How much worse does it have to get before the malignant relationship between the teachers unions and the Democrats they support is universally condemed for the failure it is? With their disdain for the taxpayers and their children so evident, these people deserve no mercy.


quote:
Chicago Teachers Union Won't Vote on Contract Deal; Strike Continues

Chicago teachers union delegates declined to vote today on a tentative agreement reached in negotiations this week, so the city's first teachers' strike in over two decades will now continue into a second week.

Karen Lewis, the president of the Chicago Teachers Union, said at a news conference held after a meeting of the union's delegates that the earliest public school classes will take place will be Wednesday. The delegates will meet again Tuesday.

"A clear majority wanted to stay out. That's why we're staying out," Lewis said of the delegates at today's meeting.

"Our members are not happy," she said. "They want to know if there is anything more they can get."

Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel said this evening that the strike was illegal, and that he would seek a court order to force teachers back to the classroom.

"I will not stand by while the children of Chicago are played as pawns in an internal dispute within a union," Emanuel said in a written statement. "This was a strike of choice and is now a delay of choice that is wrong for our children. Every day our kids are kept out of school is one more day we fail in our mission: to ensure that every child in every community has an education that matches their potential."

He said students should be back in the classroom "while the union works through its remaining issues."

Board of Education President David Vitale said there was no reason classes should not resume while the union reviews the tentative deal to end the walkout.

"I know that the vast majority of our teachers want to be in the classroom with their kids and so do our kids, we all need to put, we all need to put our children first," he said.

"While the CTU continues to delay ending the strike, we will do whatever we can can and whatever is needed to support our parents and our children," Vitale said.

There had been hope that the strike would end this weekend after a five-day lockout full of heated negotiations resulted in both sides reaching a "tentative agreement" that could put about 29,000 public school teachers and 350,000 students back in the classroom Monday.

Representatives from both the teachers' union and the city announced Friday that they had agreed on the framework of a deal and that they hoped to finalize it by Sunday, at which time the union's members would vote on it.

Robert Bloch, the attorney for the teacher's union, said negotiators had reached "the outlines of an agreement on the major issues."

"We are hopeful that we will have a complete agreement done by Sunday," he said.

That sentiment was echoed by David Vitale, the president of the Chicago Board of Education, who noted that "the framework" of a deal was in place.

Signs of a potential resolution had first emerged Thursday morning when the tone of top negotiators turned from angry bitterness to cautious optimism.

"We had what we think is pretty good movement, but of course the board always has to do a little bit of backsliding," Lewistold reporters Thursday outside the Hilton on Michigan Ave., the site of the negotiations.

After a marathon bargaining session Thursday, Barbara Byrd-Bennett, the chief education officer for Chicago Public Schools, told reporters Friday morning that it had been a "beneficial night" that had brought the two sides "closer."

The two main sticking points in the talks had been the city's new proposed teacher evaluation system and the process for re-hiring laid off teachers.

The teachers' union has argued that the proposed evaluation system would emphasize students' standardized test scores too heavily and unfairly penalize teachers, while the district countered that the system already includes input from teachers and can be adjusted to change the weighting of the test scores.

That is just what the district did Friday, reducing the emphasis on student testing and making the evaluation system more forgiving for teachers.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Parenting/chicago-teachers-refuse-vote-contract-de al/story?id=17247513



 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/16/2012 at 09:30 PM
My children have been subjected to a number of sub-par teachers that should have been let go do to lousy performance. If they can't speak using good grammar, they don't need to be teaching it to our kids. If they think the moon landing was a fake....get the hell out of the classroom. That being said, there have been far more excellent teachers...some of whom were fired when cuts had to be made while the bad teachers stayed. I think they should be subjected to reasonable evaluation...laid out not arbitrary. It would make for better education. All that being said, teachers have my utmost admiration....I couldn't do their jobs.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 9/16/2012 at 09:44 PM
quote:
My children have been subjected to a number of sub-par teachers that should have been let go do to lousy performance. If they can't speak using good grammar, they don't need to be teaching it to our kids. If they think the moon landing was a fake....get the hell out of the classroom. That being said, there have been far more excellent teachers...some of whom were fired when cuts had to be made while the bad teachers stayed. I think they should be subjected to reasonable evaluation...laid out not arbitrary. It would make for better education. All that being said, teachers have my utmost admiration....I couldn't do their jobs.

Teachers have my admiration as well. Teachers unions, not so much.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/16/2012 at 10:04 PM
quote:
teachers have my utmost admiration....I couldn't do their jobs.


Chicago student results according to the USDOE...

-- 79% of 8th graders not reading at grade level

-- 80% do not have math skills commensurate with their grade level

-- Chicago public schools have a 40% drop out rate

So apparently not many Chicago teachers are doing their jobs either.

However that's not stopping them from asking for more money and - in the greatest exhibit of chutzpah and taxpayer insult in a long time - greater job security. While their employers - the taxpayers - are facing uncertainty at unprecedented levels, they ignore fiscal reality and their own miserable results and demand more. Do we really want people this out of touch with reality to be teaching kids?

Rahm would do well to go straight to the citizens with the teacher's pathetic record and their outrageous demands for "more", and build public sentiment for going back to the negotiating table with less - not more.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/16/2012 at 11:51 PM
There is a reason our youngest (although not so young any more) grandchldren are being homeschooled.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 12:12 AM
That's a growing trend Ann - and for very good and obvious reasons. When that option started to be available, people who did so were looked upon a bit strangely. I think that's stopped now since it's a path that more and more have taken


Oh - another thing about this Chicago strike - why aren't the negotiations on TV? Shouldn't the taxpayer see how they are being represented and how their employees are working through this issue?

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 05:15 AM
It is impossible for any teacher to be successful if the pupils parents or in most cases single parent isn't engaged and supportive. The root cause of the failures in the Chicago public school system is the break down of the supportive family/parent/parents structure.

[Edited on 9/17/2012 by Peachypetewi]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 06:00 AM
That's the root cause everywhere, IMHO. Couple that with the incredible cost in time and money of standardized testing, then tying teacher evaluations, pay, and continued employment to the results of that testing, the lack of courage administrators have in discipline and teacher support, and the overwhelming amount of paperwork teachers have to do mandated by the No Child Left Behind fiasco, and yu have one big, steaming mess.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 07:45 AM
quote:
It is impossible for any teacher to be successful if the pupils parents or in most cases single parent isn't engaged and supportive. The root cause of the failures in the Chicago public school system is the break down of the supportive family/parent/parents structure.

[Edited on 9/17/2012 by Peachypetewi]


Bingo.....I would go one step further. Is it possible our educational demise on a national level directly correlates to the slow, steady destruction of the middle class?

One other important fact to consider is that teachers in states that received "Race To The Top" funding from the Obama administration are REQUIRED to negotiate a PORTION of their overall evaluation score. It's this required portion that is obviously the sticking point. Additionally, a big part of the problem is that these evaluations are based, yet again, on standardized testing which do not accurately assess for intelligence. In other words, the same fatal flaw is still inherent in every reform we attempt. As a school superintendent from Maryland so aptly put it, "We're merely moving the chairs around on the deck of the Titanic."

It is possible that these teachers and their union are finally standing up to this false idea that standardized testing should be given such weight in determining everything from student, teacher and school district success, to compensation and teachers keeping their job?

What could solve much of this stand off is agreement on an actual effective evaluation process and not test, test, test in order to meet the requirements of some horse sh*t piece of reform legislation developed by a bunch of politicians and "consultants," think tanks, etc. who haven't sat in a elementary, primary, or secondary school classroom since they themselves were students decades ago.

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 10:24 AM
teachers can't teach today. They are being handcuffed by the government and PC politics.

Teachers are retiring if they can and getting out. There is a reason we are now 16th in the world in education. Your government at work again, brilliant.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 11:28 AM
"teachers can't teach today. They are being handcuffed by the government and PC politics."

Absolutely....It may shock some among us, but teachers have no problem with be evaluated. In fact, many invite it as working alongside lazy and ineffective teachers who get away with it for years because of tenure policies makes everyone's job that much more difficult. It's just the failed mechanism that's being proposed that they have an issue with. And it isn't just personal with many of them as they understand better than anyone that it's the students who are being short changed the most with our obsession on standardized testing.

It could be argued, although I'm sure the usual suspects will dismiss it right away, that the teachers are risking their careers and livelihoods and even freedom, for the sake of their pupils too.


[Edited on 9/17/2012 by Chain]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 01:13 PM
As mentioned by somehere, the parents have to be held accountable for it also. A kid didn't make it to grade 8 before someone realized that his language and/or math skills are below average.

My wife and I spend an average of 1- 2 hours daily of extra study. Not their homework but ours. We may add or subtract times each day depending on the situation. You can't leave the future of your kids up to the teachers and education system and then look back and complain.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 02:08 PM
So this has gone from the absurdity of the teachers union demands ( which are bullsh*t as usual) to the reason the kids are dumb is because of the parents. Genies!

Just out of curiosity, of those blaming parents, how many of you have school age kids? Yes there are parents that are sorry out their no doubt. Then there are parents both single and married (who's received the same shi**y education that their kids are, in a lot of cases by the same shi**y teachers) working multiple jobs that are doing the best they can to help their Kids. Then there are the parents that work 12 hrs a day come home and teach their kids what should have been taught in class that day, just so their kids can complete that nights homework which when all is said and done it's 10-11 at night. But yeah the majority of the blame falls on the parent............... More like the majority of the responsibility to educate the child falls on the parent........ And yes this is my opinion based on real time experience.......







[Edited on 9/17/2012 by er1016]

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 02:35 PM
No solution is right for every child. There are different realms of intelligence, and different ways of learning successfully. Some of it is genetics, some early childhood development, and some personality and socialized comfort zones for structure or its absence.

My daughter is 8 years old and has never attended school. We don't sit home and do "school" either. She has been surrounded by books her entire life. She was read to almost endlessly as a baby/toddler and spent hours looking through books and then reading them by herself in addition. We've done our best to surround her with interesting and stimulating games and toys and taken time to share in those with her. We've always avoided "baby talk", used sign language before she could speak, and answered thousands of questions. We travel, we research things together, and have always encouraged mental exercises to pass the time. She has watched very little TV/movies to this point. other than a few responsibilities we've asked of her, a few regular social meet-ups with other children, soccer practice, or violin lessons, she has most of the week with which to do as her interests and imagination dictates. She is a sponge and enjoys learning about anything. School or our attempts to emulate it at home would simply serve only to detract from that fire. she does like the challenge of activity books and quizzes, etc., so we'll throw some structure out there once in a while, but freedom to chase whims is at the heart of her learning.

More to the point of this thread; unfortunately there are not many families prepared or determined to make this kind of thing happen. I certainly don't think many in those Chicago neighborhoods (for which Fuji quotes statistics) are doing this. As many have already noted, the family is where it begins and is nourished....whatever family means in your world. Simply the caregivers @ home must care. they can't just send the kid off to school and expect that the teachers will take care of it. In the most troubled schools, the teachers spend most of the day putting out fires and trying to model common decency to one another....or even worse perpetuating the very things that are the problem by virtue of their own upbringing. But you can't lure teachers that had the fortune of another upbringing into these communities without adequate compensation for the stressful days, the sense of shaking a garden hose at an inferno, and the headache of dealing with standardized tests for a bulk of the year when so many other, far more fundamental obstacles to effective learning are at play. It is a demoralizing environment. So as annoyingly political as the unions are, they do have a function here, as I believe these under performing schools would be a bigger mess without some of this security. I do agree that "burned-out" teachers and those that are coasting without trying to improve themselves do need to be honestly evaluated and removed if necessary.
But as long as most people can't afford to anything but send their children to the zoned school, or as long as most families continue to prioritize optimal income over optimal child rearing, then there will be a need for "teachers" that have to stand in front of large classrooms of children, many unfit to learn in groups for emotional, intellectual, or biological reasons, and hope to impart enough skills upon them before they go home to whomever and watch TV all night. It's too easy to cast judgement even on the mediocre among those teachers when looking only at test scores. Is there a long line of well-qualified people lining up to deal with this cultural problem and stressful bureaucracy for 40-80G/year?



[Edited on 9/17/2012 by Vanistheman]

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 02:45 PM
I have little doubt that parents and the home environment contribute to student success. Just as a community full of responsible parents would likely establish higher expectations overall. And if we're going down this road, we can open the debate of genetics vs enviroment. There's plenty of examples of siblings raised in poor enviroments where some are self-driven and emerge hugely successful while others go nowhere.

But that's not what this is about.

This is about public servants who have come to believe they are now public masters. It's about an attitude of entitlement and arrogance amid a declining economy, falling govt revenues, and growing debt. It's about union thugery aimed towards the politicians they expect to comply with their wishes (in trade for campaign cash), and against the very people who pay their salaries.

This issue of how the teachers are assessed was previously settled, this past summer, during earlier negotiations. The test score component was agreed to as 30% of their overall rating. Now they've decided to move the goalposts. It's not as if their whole rating will be based on test results. Just 30%. But that's now too much.

But it's all for the kids, right?

 

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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 02:51 PM
quote:
So this has gone from the absurdity of the teachers union demands ( which are bullsh*t as usual) to the reason the kids are dumb is because of the parents. Genies!

Just out of curiosity, of those blaming parents, how many of you have school age kids? Yes there are parents that are sorry out their no doubt. Then there are parents both single and married (who's received the same shi**y education that their kids are, in a lot of cases by the same shi**y teachers) working multiple jobs that are doing the best they can to help their Kids. Then there are the parents that work 12 hrs a day come home and teach their kids what should have been taught in class that day, just so their kids can complete that nights homework which when all is said and done it's 10-11 at night. But yeah the majority of the blame falls on the parent............... More like the majority of the responsibility to educate the child falls on the parent........ And yes this is my opinion based on real time experience.......


[Edited on 9/17/2012 by er1016]


When our oldest daughter was in middle school she had a math instructor who wouldn't teach. She was getting confused about something in math and the teacher told her it was in the book and to figure it out. I called my dad...the math guru...and he drove over from work to 'conference' with the teacher. He ended up telling the guy that if the teacher ever refused to help our daughter again when she asked he'd see the guy was fired. Dad could back people down that way. But it was like that here even then...it took everything everyone in the family could do to get our kids out of some of the grades because of disinterested teachers in the higher classes. I totally feel sorry for parents who didn't have that great of an education and are having to work, like er said, and still have to try to suppliment the lack of teaching some of their kids were experiencing.

 

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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 03:15 PM
quote:
I have little doubt that parents and the home environment contribute to student success. Just as a community full of responsible parents would likely establish higher expectations overall. And if we're going down this road, we can open the debate of genetics vs enviroment. There's plenty of examples of siblings raised in poor enviroments where some are self-driven and emerge hugely successful while others go nowhere.

But that's not what this is about.

This is about public servants who have come to believe they are now public masters. It's about an attitude of entitlement and arrogance amid a declining economy, falling govt revenues, and growing debt. It's about union thugery aimed towards the politicians they expect to comply with their wishes (in trade for campaign cash), and against the very people who pay their salaries.

This issue of how the teachers are assessed was previously settled, this past summer, during earlier negotiations. The test score component was agreed to as 30% of their overall rating. Now they've decided to move the goalposts. It's not as if their whole rating will be based on test results. Just 30%. But that's now too much.

But it's all for the kids, right?


Why should it be all for the kids?? They are fighting to make a good living while trying to do something honorable with their lives. The folks building cars are willing to fight and move the goal posts, right? Agents ask multi-million dollar athletes to hold out for more $$. So these are public servants.....just means the employer that they have to negotiate with is us (or the city of Chicago/state of Illinois in this case.) That doesn't mean you don't want to have ideal working conditions...or want to fight for them. I don't think that most of the teachers believe the standardized tests serve the children. It's not simply that they are afraid to be held accountable.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 03:21 PM
quote:
So this has gone from the absurdity of the teachers union demands ( which are bullsh*t as usual) to the reason the kids are dumb is because of the parents. Genies!

Just out of curiosity, of those blaming parents, how many of you have school age kids? Yes there are parents that are sorry out their no doubt. Then there are parents both single and married (who's received the same shi**y education that their kids are, in a lot of cases by the same shi**y teachers) working multiple jobs that are doing the best they can to help their Kids. Then there are the parents that work 12 hrs a day come home and teach their kids what should have been taught in class that day, just so their kids can complete that nights homework which when all is said and done it's 10-11 at night. But yeah the majority of the blame falls on the parent............... More like the majority of the responsibility to educate the child falls on the parent........ And yes this is my opinion based on real time experience.......
[Edited on 9/17/2012 by er1016]


I never said to blame the parent. But as a parent, you can't just sit around and do nothing. You can bitch about teachers and the education system all day long but it won't teach your kid to read.

I can't change the education system and I can't make a bad teacher good but I can monitor my kids and decide for myself if they are in need of help.

Sure there are some that work a 12 hour day but they are not the majority. Sometimes I do and more so I get that people do. But most come home from work and turn on a TV. Let's at least be honest about it. Should you have to teach them what the school should have already? No but to me the important thing is whether they learn it or not.

I could sit and bitch each night or just buckle down and do some extra. If you start that when they are young, it will lead to far less work for both the parents and kids later.

My wife is far better at getting the extra done than myself si I luck out with a great partner. One kid is in college and another grade 5. We have done this all along and won't stop. If I get the chance, I will help my grandkids if need be.

If you are watching TV and your kids can't read, write or do math then your priorities are screwed and no teacher or school system can save your kids.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 04:37 PM
quote:
quote:
So this has gone from the absurdity of the teachers union demands ( which are bullsh*t as usual) to the reason the kids are dumb is because of the parents. Genies!

Just out of curiosity, of those blaming parents, how many of you have school age kids? Yes there are parents that are sorry out their no doubt. Then there are parents both single and married (who's received the same shi**y education that their kids are, in a lot of cases by the same shi**y teachers) working multiple jobs that are doing the best they can to help their Kids. Then there are the parents that work 12 hrs a day come home and teach their kids what should have been taught in class that day, just so their kids can complete that nights homework which when all is said and done it's 10-11 at night. But yeah the majority of the blame falls on the parent............... More like the majority of the responsibility to educate the child falls on the parent........ And yes this is my opinion based on real time experience.......
[Edited on 9/17/2012 by er1016]


I never said to blame the parent. But as a parent, you can't just sit around and do nothing. You can bitch about teachers and the education system all day long but it won't teach your kid to read.

I can't change the education system and I can't make a bad teacher good but I can monitor my kids and decide for myself if they are in need of help.

Sure there are some that work a 12 hour day but they are not the majority. Sometimes I do and more so I get that people do. But most come home from work and turn on a TV. Let's at least be honest about it. Should you have to teach them what the school should have already? No but to me the important thing is whether they learn it or not.

I could sit and bitch each night or just buckle down and do some extra. If you start that when they are young, it will lead to far less work for both the parents and kids later.

My wife is far better at getting the extra done than myself si I luck out with a great partner. One kid is in college and another grade 5. We have done this all along and won't stop. If I get the chance, I will help my grandkids if need be.

If you are watching TV and your kids can't read, write or do math then your priorities are screwed and no teacher or school system can save your kids.


I don't see where I called you out by name ........ (reminds me of the old saying, the bit dog hollers loudest) I generalized just as you have in your statement. Nor have I said that parents should not be a part of their children s education.

I happen to be one of those parents that works 12 hrs a day and then comes home and prepares dinner for my daughter and myself. Then I begin the nightly ritual of teaching my daughter what wasn't taught in class that day to insure that she learns the lesson and can complete her homework. I take a very active role in my daughters education, including meeting on numerous occasions with her under inspired, improper grammar speaking teachers, so I can get the lesson plans so I can make sure my daughter gets what she needs, just as a helluva lot of other parents both single and married, out there do. More than you think......

This discussion turned from pointing out the absurdity of the teachers unions request and tactics too, it's on the parents. So if you (general term) have said it's on the parents then why do teachers or unions need more money and less accountability.......I mean after all they're just glorified babysitters right, they shouldn't be held accountable given the fact that parents aren't doing their jobs. If that's the case I think I as a taxpayer can find a cheaper babysitter in a far safer environment and continue to teach her when I get home from work........but that's just my 2 cents.



[Edited on 9/17/2012 by er1016]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 05:09 PM
quote:
I don't see where I called you out by name ........ (reminds me of the old saying, the bit dog hollers loudest) I generalized just as you have in your statement. Nor have I said that parents should not be a part of their children s education.



Sorry didn't mean to imply that you did. I spoke out about parents and was right before your post so I assumed that I was part of it. Didn't take it personally nor did I mean to imply anything against yourself.

Glad to hear that you are one of the parents that cares and takes it upon yourself. Like you, I do those long days and still make time. I agree with you that many others do to. But lots just sit and watch TV and then bitch that their kids are failing and blame the schools. the schools and systems may be crap but it isn't an excuse for bad parenting. If we can do it then everyone can.

Society changes and unfortunately some things just don't improve. Even good teachers have their hands tied as they are not allowed to use some techniques and are forced to use others. I have had all the arguments over the years with teachers, principals and board of education. Battles involving lawyers so I am pretty experienced and I won each round. What did all that change? Not a thing sadly.

The one thing that I do when my kids have a good teacher is to let the teacher know that we feel that way. Everyone likes to be appreciated.

For bad ones, write letters and get other parents on board also. Unions make it harder to get rid of bad teachers but not impossible. Hard to defend people that are terrible at what they do and they will always provide the rope needed to hang themselves.

 

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  posted on 9/17/2012 at 08:15 PM
quote:
quote:
I don't see where I called you out by name ........ (reminds me of the old saying, the bit dog hollers loudest) I generalized just as you have in your statement. Nor have I said that parents should not be a part of their children s education.



Sorry didn't mean to imply that you did. I spoke out about parents and was right before your post so I assumed that I was part of it. Didn't take it personally nor did I mean to imply anything against yourself.

Glad to hear that you are one of the parents that cares and takes it upon yourself. Like you, I do those long days and still make time. I agree with you that many others do to. But lots just sit and watch TV and then bitch that their kids are failing and blame the schools. the schools and systems may be crap but it isn't an excuse for bad parenting. If we can do it then everyone can.

Society changes and unfortunately some things just don't improve. Even good teachers have their hands tied as they are not allowed to use some techniques and are forced to use others. I have had all the arguments over the years with teachers, principals and board of education. Battles involving lawyers so I am pretty experienced and I won each round. What did all that change? Not a thing sadly.

The one thing that I do when my kids have a good teacher is to let the teacher know that we feel that way. Everyone likes to be appreciated.

For bad ones, write letters and get other parents on board also. Unions make it harder to get rid of bad teachers but not impossible. Hard to defend people that are terrible at what they do and they will always provide the rope needed to hang themselves.




No problem and I agree you.

 

Universal Peach



Karma:
Posts: 6535
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Registered: 8/11/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 9/18/2012 at 07:40 AM
quote:
I have little doubt that parents and the home environment contribute to student success. Just as a community full of responsible parents would likely establish higher expectations overall. And if we're going down this road, we can open the debate of genetics vs enviroment. There's plenty of examples of siblings raised in poor enviroments where some are self-driven and emerge hugely successful while others go nowhere.

But that's not what this is about.

This is about public servants who have come to believe they are now public masters. It's about an attitude of entitlement and arrogance amid a declining economy, falling govt revenues, and growing debt. It's about union thugery aimed towards the politicians they expect to comply with their wishes (in trade for campaign cash), and against the very people who pay their salaries.

This issue of how the teachers are assessed was previously settled, this past summer, during earlier negotiations. The test score component was agreed to as 30% of their overall rating. Now they've decided to move the goalposts. It's not as if their whole rating will be based on test results. Just 30%. But that's now too much.

But it's all for the kids, right?


That doesn't change the fact that standardized test results are meaningless with regard to teacher effectiveness. Even agreeing to 30% is still basing nearly 1/3 of a teachers evaluation on a incorrect premise. And the waste of time and money it takes to create and gather that data, which is arguably worthless data, is the crux of the problem.

Who said it was all for the kids? I merely stated that many teachers realize that it's the students who are paying the biggest price for the time and money wasted on this reliance on standardized testing and that it's PART of the issue for some of them.

 

Zen Peach



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Posts: 46803
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Registered: 7/8/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 9/18/2012 at 08:54 AM
Oh, the ironies within.

 

____________________
"Live every week like it's Shark Week." - Tracy Jordan

 

Sublime Peach



Karma:
Posts: 7168
(7166 all sites)
Registered: 4/7/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 9/18/2012 at 09:17 AM
Teachers can't even have parents come in and help grade papers because the parent my see someone elses kids grades? Are you kidding me? Tell little Johnny to step it up and do better and then he wouldn't have to worry about Billy's mom grading his "F".

teachers have no control in the clasroom anymore. You cannot discipline these kids and they know it. The kids are running the show, not the teachers.

There is more red tape and bull$hit that teachers have to do today that they don't have time to prepare and teach the way it should be done.

Standardized testing dumbs down our kids and does nothing to help improve their education. They are teaching to the test, not teaching for excellence.

If we were the #1 country in the world, we would have computers on every school desk in America. Instead we blow it on wars. Brilliant.

 

____________________
"If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace."

- John Lennon

 

Maximum Peach



Karma:
Posts: 8395
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Registered: 3/22/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 9/18/2012 at 09:21 AM
quote:
quote:
I have little doubt that parents and the home environment contribute to student success. Just as a community full of responsible parents would likely establish higher expectations overall. And if we're going down this road, we can open the debate of genetics vs enviroment. There's plenty of examples of siblings raised in poor enviroments where some are self-driven and emerge hugely successful while others go nowhere.

But that's not what this is about.

This is about public servants who have come to believe they are now public masters. It's about an attitude of entitlement and arrogance amid a declining economy, falling govt revenues, and growing debt. It's about union thugery aimed towards the politicians they expect to comply with their wishes (in trade for campaign cash), and against the very people who pay their salaries.

This issue of how the teachers are assessed was previously settled, this past summer, during earlier negotiations. The test score component was agreed to as 30% of their overall rating. Now they've decided to move the goalposts. It's not as if their whole rating will be based on test results. Just 30%. But that's now too much.

But it's all for the kids, right?


That doesn't change the fact that standardized test results are meaningless with regard to teacher effectiveness. Even agreeing to 30% is still basing nearly 1/3 of a teachers evaluation on a incorrect premise. And the waste of time and money it takes to create and gather that data, which is arguably worthless data, is the crux of the problem.

Who said it was all for the kids? I merely stated that many teachers realize that it's the students who are paying the biggest price for the time and money wasted on this reliance on standardized testing and that it's PART of the issue for some of them.

Lets turn your premise around. Test results have no meaning in regard to teacher effectiveness? So if we take the better teachers, whose work engages their students, and whose classes routinely outscore their peers on tests because of that engagement, how is it unrealistic to say that those better test scores were not due to better teaching? Shouldn't they be rewarded for that?

Like it or not, tests are and will remain a vital component of assessing students. Over the years, many here have quoted our nation's falling educational standings vs other countries. How was that determined? Test scores.

Without some part of the teachers performance rating being test results, what objective measurement remains to gauge what they are producing? Should their performance just be subjective feelings from their management? What important job evaluates performance like that?

Here's what this boils down to: typical union tactics of lowering the bar for everyone so that mediocrity becomes the standard. When you can't fire the mediocre, then all standards plunge. I know from personal experience in managing a team that the acceptance of mediocre performers lowers the expectations for your best workers. They eventually see these peers, getting paid the same (or more, given tenure) for producing lesser results, and eventually their passion dims since their superior effort isn't rewarded. So either they dial back, or they leave for private institutions where their passion to succeed can be rewarded.

Objective measurements are necessary. The students will be evaluated on them all their lives, why not the teachers? What isn't measured and held accountable for won't get fixed.

 

____________________
Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured

uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,

so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 
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