Thread: Virginia Does Healing Right - Thwarted Not Thwarted

cyclone88 - 6/4/2020 at 11:09 AM

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/03/robert-e-lee-statue-r ichmond-removed-governor-ralph-northam/3138433001/

Kudos to Virginia. Richmond, the capital of the Confederacy, will have its statue of Robert E. Lee removed from its famous Monument Ave. by the governor. Lee's statue is on state-owned land. The remaining statues of Confederate figures will also be removed according to a plan by the city's mayor because they are situated on city-owned land.

Removal of these statues (as they should be in all states) signifies that leaders "get" that they're nothing but flashpoints for racism. They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves, oppressed after the war to free them was won, treated as lesser citizens until the Civil Rights Act 100 years after the war, and targeted by White Supremacists in the 21st century. Removing these archaic symbols of hate are one step in quelling race relations.

[Edited on 6/9/2020 by cyclone88]

[Edited on 6/11/2020 by cyclone88]


lukester420 - 6/4/2020 at 03:54 PM

Here here


Rusty - 6/4/2020 at 04:06 PM

I've done a lot of reading about confederate monuments.

A lot of folks down here (deep south) seem to think that these monuments went up immediately after the Civil War and that they are somehow, sanctioned by the American government as memorials to those who fell serving their country (or something that twisted).

These monuments actually did not start showing up until around 1940 - about 80 years after the Civil War and at about the same time that "Jim Crowe" arrived. Some other interesting trivia:

* many of these monuments were put up in black neighborhoods
* many of the soldiers depicted are typically facing north (see Stone Mountain carving) - a gesture towards "damned yankees"
* many - even though they are supposed to represent a particular soldier - are made from the same castings


gina - 6/6/2020 at 06:30 PM

Why remove them when they are part of history?

History cannot be rewritten.


Bhawk - 6/6/2020 at 06:40 PM

quote:
Why remove them when they are part of history?

History cannot be rewritten.


Why should there be monuments to treason?

So, if you take down a Confederate statue, the Confederacy will simply vanish from history?

What does a Confederate statue teach you about history, gina?


BrerRabbit - 6/6/2020 at 06:46 PM

cmon man, you really want that door opened?


lukester420 - 6/6/2020 at 06:54 PM

quote:
Why remove them when they are part of history?

History cannot be rewritten.

Here we go again.
Applying the same logic: Why don't we have monuments commemorating the legacy of the Lee Harvey Oswald, Japanese internment camps, Ted Kaczynski, The DC sniper... etc

Nobody's trying to erase history, just trying to send a message that it is the 21st century and monuments to white supremacy don't belong in public spaces.
I expect some of the Diet Racism sales reps to check in here eventually. Heritage not hate my a$$


BrerRabbit - 6/6/2020 at 07:03 PM

This place is starting to look like Custard's Last Stand


lukester420 - 6/6/2020 at 07:14 PM

Bury my heart at wounded knee


lukester420 - 6/6/2020 at 07:27 PM

It's ironic this topic has come back around.... I'm about to dawn my mask and venture to the next county over to remind the travelling League of the South Yahoos that drove from 3 hours away in VA to wave Confederate flags in front of a middle school named after an African American poet in protest of their precious monument being torn down by the town, that they aren't welcome here.
Good day to all.

Disclaimer-peaceful demonstration is my goal


BrerRabbit - 6/6/2020 at 07:34 PM

^ Good going and Godspeed - better to light a candle than curse the darkness.


LeglizHemp - 6/6/2020 at 08:39 PM

Indianapolis is too

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Soldiers_and_Sailors_Monument_(In dianapolis)

[Edited on 6/6/2020 by LeglizHemp]


cyclone88 - 6/6/2020 at 09:19 PM

quote:
These monuments actually did not start showing up until around 1940 - about 80 years after the Civil War and at about the same time that "Jim Crowe" arrived. Some other interesting trivia:

* many of these monuments were put up in black neighborhoods
* many of the soldiers depicted are typically facing north (see Stone Mountain carving) - a gesture towards "damned yankees"
* many - even though they are supposed to represent a particular soldier - are made from the same castings


You're right. The monuments weren't put up by survivors of the Civil War in honor of war dead. Funds were raised by political & "civic" organizations 50 years later. They were put up between 1900s - 1950s with the largest spike in the 1920s-50s mirroring the Jim Crow era in town centers or other locales where blacks were likely to see them as intimidation & warnings. The 1960s was when they were first called what they were - symbols of White Supremacy. The hatred & violence that have surrounded them since the Civil Rights era make them archaic.

Prior to that, markers, not statues, memorialized Confederate soldiers who died in the Civil War in southern cemeteries or families buried their war dead in their own plots w/o reference to the generals who lost the war.


Jerry - 6/6/2020 at 09:25 PM

quote:
quote:
These monuments actually did not start showing up until around 1940 - about 80 years after the Civil War and at about the same time that "Jim Crowe" arrived. Some other interesting trivia:

* many of these monuments were put up in black neighborhoods
* many of the soldiers depicted are typically facing north (see Stone Mountain carving) - a gesture towards "damned yankees"
* many - even though they are supposed to represent a particular soldier - are made from the same castings


You're right. The monuments weren't put up by survivors of the Civil War in honor of war dead. Funds were raised by political & "civic" organizations 50 years later. They were put up between 1900s - 1950s with the largest spike in the 1920s-50s mirroring the Jim Crow era in town centers or other locales where blacks were likely to see them as intimidation & warnings. The 1960s was when they were first called what they were - symbols of White Supremacy. The hatred & violence that have surrounded them since the Civil Rights era make them archaic.

Prior to that, markers, not statues, memorialized Confederate soldiers who died in the Civil War in southern cemeteries or families buried their war dead in their own plots w/o reference to the generals who lost the war.


Do you know why there were no statues erected right after the war of 1861-65?


Jerry - 6/6/2020 at 09:26 PM

did you know that Robert E. Lee never owned a slave?


lukester420 - 6/6/2020 at 11:25 PM

^ False.

And you accuse everyone else of following revisionist history as it pertains to the civil war


cyclone88 - 6/6/2020 at 11:41 PM

quote:
did you know that Robert E. Lee never owned a slave?

Not true & irrelevant. Virginia has recognized that statues of Confederate generals are a symbol of racial injustice (& for some, white supremacy) & is removing them from public land.


Jerry - 6/7/2020 at 12:07 AM

quote:
^ False.

And you accuse everyone else of following revisionist history as it pertains to the civil war

lukester420, IF you were referring to my posts, here's the truth.

1) During Reconstruction there was no money available to build monuments. Excessive taxes, confiscation of property, and almost all of the Souths' infrastructure had been destroyed.

2) Robert E. Lee never owned a slave. His father had several, but sold them due to bad finances. His mother did own several and passed them down to R. E. Lee, but he never took possession and they were passed to his wife's family as that he had no need for slaves while engaged in his military career. So those belonged to the Custis family, not R.E. Lee.
When Custis died, he left the plantation and all property to Mary Lee (great grand-daughter to Martha Washington). The will stated that all slaves would be manumitted as soon as economically feasible, or within 5 years.

So, NO, Robert E. Lee never owned a slave.


lukester420 - 6/7/2020 at 12:45 AM

quote:


So those belonged to the Custis family, not R.E. Lee.
When Custis died, he left the plantation and all property to Mary Lee (great grand-daughter to Martha Washington). The will stated that all slaves would be manumitted as soon as economically feasible, or within 5 years.

So, NO, Robert E. Lee never owned a slave.




https://acwm.org/blog/myths-misunderstandings-lee-slaveholder/

Whatever I guess it's a waste if time linking a source that disproves your uncited claims since you won't read anything about that time period that wasn't written by your Great Gran Pappy. I suppose those carpet baggin yanks at the American Civil War Museum are all liars.

A story through a single lens is never the whole story


Jerry - 6/7/2020 at 01:26 AM

never a waste of time to read someones view of history.

Here's one for you to read:
https://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Lee_Robert_E_and_slavery


Jerry - 6/7/2020 at 01:34 AM

Here's one from the Park Service

https:www.nps.gov/arho/learn/historyculture/slavery.htm

Again, while his mother did will her slaves to Robert, he gave them to the Custis family, not needing them.
He did later become the custodian of the slaves when Custis died and R.E. Lee was the executor of the estate.

While he did have control over the slaves, he did not own them, nor did he ever personally own one.


cyclone88 - 6/7/2020 at 01:48 AM

quote:
American Civil War Museum are all liars.

The Civil War Museum is just one source of reputable historians that contradict the myth that Lee never owned slaves. The Lee-As-Saint mystique is deeply embedded in confederate mythology & no one on this message board is likely to convince anyone to the contrary if they want to believe.

It misses the point that the statues in Richmond are being removed for racist connotations in the 21st century & the timing is one of healing when the president of the US (not of the confederacy) is calling for US troops to "dominate" US citizens on US soil.




lukester420 - 6/7/2020 at 02:12 AM

Cyclone is right, whether or not he owned slaves is irrelevant to why his or any other Confederate statues donít need to be preserved. That being said, he had slaves willed to him and gave them away, that doesnít constitute ownership? How does one give something away that isnít their property?

The man grew up in a slave owning family, had slaves willed to him and oversaw an estate that included slaves and did not allow them to go free until he was more or less forced to, that should outweigh the semantics of if he owned slaves or not (he did). And again this is all a moot point anyway as it is not really relevant the original post.


Jerry - 6/7/2020 at 04:13 AM

quote:
Cyclone is right, whether or not he owned slaves is irrelevant to why his or any other Confederate statues donít need to be preserved. That being said, he had slaves willed to him and gave them away, that doesnít constitute ownership? How does one give something away that isnít their property?

The man grew up in a slave owning family, had slaves willed to him and oversaw an estate that included slaves and did not allow them to go free until he was more or less forced to, that should outweigh the semantics of if he owned slaves or not (he did). And again this is all a moot point anyway as it is not really relevant the original post.


Again lukester, he never owned a slave. He had use of slaves from his mother, he was willed those his mother owned, but never took possession of them transferring his right of ownership to his father-in-law.
He became the custodian of the slaves as the executor of the Custis estate, he did not own any of the slaves.
yes, he did work slaves until the specified time period was up, he and Mary also worked to get them ready for their freedom.
Since I presume you read the articles, you know about the illegal Sunday school they established so the slaves would know the three R's (readin', writin', and rithmatic), and you know of the dreadful way they treated maria Syphax, freeing her and her husband and making them live on the sixteen acres given to them by the family.
just really mean, bad people those Lee and Custis families.

The lee and Custis families were so mean to blacks that they backed the Liberian movement of freed slaves back to Africa, which also included Abe Lincoln as a proponent.

I'm going to give you a modern example of how he did not own slaves.


Jerry - 6/7/2020 at 04:17 AM

Decided not to do the "modern example" since it might (might hell, would) cause some decidedly vile remarks thrown my way about comparing blacks to*********.


fanfrom-71 - 6/7/2020 at 12:26 PM

Well, there is this about Mr Lee.
Fake news I'm sure...

The Myth of the Kindly General Lee
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly -general-lee/529038/


cyclone88 - 6/7/2020 at 12:58 PM

quote:
Again lukester, he never owned a slave.

Lukester, this dogged belief in southern myths in spite of decades of scholarly, 1st source research goes to the heart of perpetuating racism. Lee wasn't a saint. He was a slave owner who managed 4 plantations w/slave labor. As a soldier, his letters express his disappointment that not only was he not allowed to bring 3 slaves w/him on campaigns, he wasn't allowed even 1. After retirement, he became president of Washington & Lee University in Lexington VA where a chapter of the KKK was founded during his tenure & where Lee turned a blind eye to violence against blacks by students, including rape of black girls/women & lynchings. He was indecisive at best about the major issues of the day, his personal life, & career choices. A reluctant general is hardly who one wants as commander of the armed forces in a war.

The characters of Lee, Jackson, Davis, Maury, or Stuart are irrelevant. It's that the monuments were erected starting in 1890 to intimidate blacks & remind them of the white male supremacy that remained in place until the Civil Rights movement 70 years later. Now, 130 years later, the statues are being removed. They serve no purpose except to antagonize & humiliate the black citizens of Virginia. They're being appropriated by the resurgence of the white supremacy movement. Removal is long overdue.

Virginia's announcement was made swiftly after the death of George Floyd & before the arrest of his killer. Yes, there were early protests in Richmond, but state & city leadership took action toward healing - something their predecessors failed to do.


lukester420 - 6/7/2020 at 01:25 PM

quote:
Well, there is this about Mr Lee.
Fake news I'm sure...

The Myth of the Kindly General Lee
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly -general-lee/529038/


I read that one too, but knowing the audience for this discussion I figured anything from the Atlantic would illicit scoffs since the paper was founded in Boston.

quote:

Decided not to do the "modern example" since it might (might hell, would) cause some decidedly vile remarks thrown my way about comparing blacks to*********.


Gee thanks for showing restraint. Again if you are willed something and transfer OWNERSHIP, that means you owned it, what is the point of trying to use technicalities to prove a false point that Lee was somehow this wonderful man. I just find it highly hypocritical and suspect that Mr. Jerry pretends to be the authority on Civil War history around here but subscribes to all the historical whitewashing that mirrors the beliefs of the Klan and the Neo Confederate scumbags then wonders why his remarks are construed has being racist.


lukester420 - 6/7/2020 at 01:31 PM

quote:
The characters of Lee, Jackson, Davis, Maury, or Stuart are irrelevant. It's that the monuments were erected starting in 1890 to intimidate blacks & remind them of the white male supremacy that remained in place until the Civil Rights movement 70 years later. Now, 130 years later, the statues are being removed. They serve no purpose except to antagonize & humiliate the black citizens of Virginia. They're being appropriated by the resurgence of the white supremacy movement. Removal is long overdue.

X2
That statement makes this false argument Jerry is making pointless but I'm sure it will continue to be made, I'm done addressing it since it is false as well as completely superfluous in the context of this thread.


MartinD28 - 6/7/2020 at 01:55 PM

quote:
quote:
The characters of Lee, Jackson, Davis, Maury, or Stuart are irrelevant. It's that the monuments were erected starting in 1890 to intimidate blacks & remind them of the white male supremacy that remained in place until the Civil Rights movement 70 years later. Now, 130 years later, the statues are being removed. They serve no purpose except to antagonize & humiliate the black citizens of Virginia. They're being appropriated by the resurgence of the white supremacy movement. Removal is long overdue.

X2
That statement makes this false argument Jerry is making pointless but I'm sure it will continue to be made, I'm done addressing it since it is false as well as completely superfluous in the context of this thread.


There have been previous attempts to remove the statues in Richmond, Va, but all failed. There were the typical push pulls on aspects of what the statues represent or don't represent, impact to tourism, how city council members would vote, state vs local politics, etc.

Then there was George Floyd which was the probably the single most impacting catalyst to have Lee and others removed quickly. Many who were previously against have jumped on board. I wonder if they see it as not being holdouts or last man standing, or if they truly have seen the impacts. The protests in Richmond followed the course as in other major cities across the country and are still ongoing with many of these at the base of Lee and Jeb Stuart.

The other night a statue was pulled down in Monroe Park. See below:

UPDATE: Protesters pull down Confederate statue in Richmond's Monroe Park of Confederate Gen. Williams Carter Wickham, which has stood in the park since 1891

https://www.richmond.com/news/local/update-protesters-pull-down-confederate -statue-in-richmonds-monroe-park/article_8e071910-e47f-5114-bb05-325e39fc20 fd.html


BIGV - 6/7/2020 at 02:17 PM

quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves


So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?


cyclone88 - 6/7/2020 at 02:27 PM

quote:
There have been previous attempts to remove the statues in Richmond, Va, but all failed.


My original point is kudos to the Virginia governor & Richmond mayor who are finally making it happen.


lukester420 - 6/7/2020 at 02:35 PM

quote:
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves


So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?


Some of the same people petitioning the removal of these statues have been asking that same question for 20+ years, usually met with pushback from the same crowd thats crying about these statues.

Our money looks like baseball cards for slave owners
-Dave Chappelle


cyclone88 - 6/7/2020 at 02:41 PM

quote:
both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money

The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.

Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.


BIGV - 6/7/2020 at 02:41 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves


So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?


Some of the same people petitioning the removal of these statues have been asking that same question for 20+ years, usually met with pushback from the same crowd thats crying about these statues.

Our money looks like baseball cards for slave owners
-Dave Chappelle


So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well


cyclone88 - 6/7/2020 at 02:46 PM

quote:
So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well


How about starting a new thread re the selection process for US currency. This thread is limited to applauding the Virginia leaders for taking steps towards healing race relations by removing Confederate monuments. Once in a while, it's good to have a positive thread that doesn't deteriorate into off-topic gibberish.


lukester420 - 6/7/2020 at 02:58 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves


So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?


Some of the same people petitioning the removal of these statues have been asking that same question for 20+ years, usually met with pushback from the same crowd thats crying about these statues.

Our money looks like baseball cards for slave owners
-Dave Chappelle


So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well


Sure why not? While we're at it, hurry up and get Andrew Jackson's face out of my wallet. The new $20 with Harriet Tubman on the front that was to be put in circulation this year was pushed back to 2028 thanks to Steve Mnuchin.

Here are some I think an easy case could be made for as replacemens, Frederick Douglas, JFK, MLK, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Jackie Robinson, Woody Guthrie maybe. Or here's an idea, don't put anyone's face on the currency.


lukester420 - 6/7/2020 at 03:11 PM

quote:
quote:
So, let's add the Quarter and the Nickel to that list as well


How about starting a new thread re the selection process for US currency. This thread is limited to applauding the Virginia leaders for taking steps towards healing race relations by removing Confederate monuments. Once in a while, it's good to have a positive thread that doesn't deteriorate into off-topic gibberish.


Agreed, sorry for contributing to talking points of those who like to steer the topic off course. I'll keep any of my posts in this thread on topic


cyclone88 - 6/7/2020 at 03:28 PM

quote:
Agreed

I was hoping there'd be examples from other cities - like Indianapolis per LegalHemp - that are doing things like renaming streets not necessarily to honor George Floyd, but to let people know that subtle & not so subtle reminders of racism & oppression are everywhere & should be removed.

I know Cuomo wanted to change the name of 2 streets named after Confederate generals at the Ft. Hamilton Army base in Brooklyn after Charlottesville. I don't know whether that happened, but it did spark the removal of busts of Lee & Jackson from Bronx Community College's sculpture garden of Great Americans & a Brooklyn Episcopal congregation's removal of a plaque for Lee.

[Edited on 6/7/2020 by cyclone88]


BIGV - 6/8/2020 at 03:43 AM

quote:
quote:
both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money

The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.

Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.


OMG.....Exactly, the Legislature, NOT the people of Virginia...And if the men on currency were slave owners, it has EVERYTHING to do with the topic.


2112 - 6/8/2020 at 07:29 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money

The topic is congrats to the Virginia governor, Richmond mayor, & any other leaders who are voluntarily removing monuments of traitorous leaders against the US built for the express purpose of denigrating black residents as one of several steps in healing the rift between races in 2020. As previously mentioned, the character of the monument figures is irrelevant.

Feel free to start a thread on the selection criteria for US Presidents & Revolutionary War leaders on circulating currency.


OMG.....Exactly, the Legislature, NOT the people of Virginia...And if the men on currency were slave owners, it has EVERYTHING to do with the topic.


I don't think the people on the currency lost a war fought against the US. Slavery aside, why honor those responsible for a war against the US. I will never understand those who fly both an American and a Confederate flag.


cyclone88 - 6/8/2020 at 11:18 AM

quote:
I will never understand those who fly both an American and a Confederate flag.

Me, either. A person was either a Confederate or an American - they were mutually exclusive. I don't get the support for states who seceded from the US & were defeated as something to exist 150 years later.

I haven't been to Germany in 2 years, but as I recall, there aren't statues of Hitler, Goering, Eichmann, Hess, & Himmler because they were banned along w/swastikas immediately after the war. Even buildings used by Nazis were torn down to prevent them from becoming attractive shrines to Neo-Nazis.

It took Germany 4 years (1949) to rid itself of symbols of a regime built on hate; the US still can't seem to do that.


BIGV - 6/8/2020 at 02:57 PM

quote:
Slavery aside


You have got to be kidding, right?...."Slavery aside"...How in the hell do you bring up the evils of the Confederacy, suggest they are traitors to the Union and then write "slavery aside". Is that not the argument for why the war was fought in the first place? Slavery?...And what could be more nefarious than owning someone? Jesus if you are going to heap false praise on the State of Virginia for destroying statues that are part of our history and ignore the people who actually participated in this stain, you may need to return to the classroom.


BrerRabbit - 6/8/2020 at 04:29 PM

^ Muleman.


cyclone88 - 6/8/2020 at 06:56 PM

quote:
^ Muleman.

You're a bloodhound, although he does leave a rather heavily scented trail.


cyclone88 - 6/8/2020 at 07:21 PM

quote:
using this same logic

Your posts demonstrate that you aren't using logic & don't understand the title & purpose of the thread.

Since Floyd was killed, do you know of any cities that have renamed streets previously named for Confederates or torn down Confederate monuments in a gesture of solidarity w/the protesters or as a tribute to George Floyd or because it's the right thing to do? If so, please enumerate. That's the purpose of this thread - healing & commending those who are healing very old wounds. It's a positive thread.




cyclone88 - 6/8/2020 at 08:01 PM

quote:
I was enjoying the thread and hoping to hear you continue. I wouldn't censor your knowledge of history because a few people might find it objectionable.


I see you're new here, so a tip is that except for WP political threads, we tend to stay on topic. BigV is not someone who needs advice as to when to censor himself; he can handle himself.

If you're enjoying the thread, I hope you can add some instances of Confederate relics that have been destroyed, removed, or renamed post-Floyd to continue the conversation.


cyclone88 - 6/9/2020 at 01:23 PM

So, of course, the Virginia plan to remove a symbol of divisiveness & hate in an effort to show unity has been delayed by the action of one man - William Gregory, a descendant of the family from whom the land on which the statue stands was annexed in 1890. That's 130 years ago. Claiming the state has a duty to "faithfully guard" & "affectionately protect" the statue, Gregory went to court against the state. The judge ordered a 10-day injunction until the lawsuit can be heard.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/ 06/09/872707016/virginia-judge-blocks-plan-to-remove-statue-of-robert-e-lee

Guess Mr. Gregory missed the news of George Floyd's death & the global protests that followed & are now in their third week.

The good news is that the governor's plan inspired the city of Fredericksburg to remove a slave auction block from its downtown (imagine keeping THAT as a symbol of what a great place Fredericksburg is), a Confederate statue was removed by the city of Alexandria, & protesters knocked down another Confederate general statue in Richmond.

Give it up, Mr. Gregory. Lee lost the war. The statue doesn't make him a winner.




lukester420 - 6/9/2020 at 01:56 PM

quote:
If you're enjoying the thread, I hope you can add some instances of Confederate relics that have been destroyed, removed, or renamed post-Floyd to continue the conversation.


It's not a Confederate relic, but did you see this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/world/europe/edward-colston-statue-brita in-racism.html
I'm kind of surprised at the ripple effect that has taken place internationally from the Floyd incident.


porkchopbob - 6/9/2020 at 02:01 PM

quote:
quote:
They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves

So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?

The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves so they represent racism and slavery directly. Yes, the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and that's awful and how we revere them is worth a conversation (just as Columbus-worship has been for decades). But that's a different conversation than southern states continuing to lionize Confederates.


cyclone88 - 6/9/2020 at 02:21 PM

quote:
It's not a Confederate relic, but did you see this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/08/world/europe/edward-colston-statue-brita in-racism.html
I'm kind of surprised at the ripple effect that has taken place internationally from the Floyd incident.

It is kind of amazing that finally, there is a case that is so heinous that the outrage is global. Who thinks a 5-century old monument to a slave trader should still be standing? Good for the protesters in Bristol who rid their city of this abomination. As the writer for The Guardian said they've been debating for years; now, they're acting.

Great Britain is who first imported African slaves to its American colonies. They're right to be thinking about their role.


cyclone88 - 6/10/2020 at 03:26 PM

https://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/watch-now-two-lawsuits-challenge-lee -statues-removal-northam-says-divisive-monument-needs-to-come/article_ab073 021-aea5-55f0-96e4-c8ccc47cd361.html

And here I thought something positive might actually happen. Now, there's a second lawsuit by man who has nothing whatsoever to do w/the statue beyond disliking the graffiti that plagues it on the grounds that it violates the historic preservation status of the entire avenue on which it stands. A spokesperson for that organization has said its classification has nothing to do w/removing it. That jerk is representing himself - no doubt because he couldn't find a lawyer who would take a case for a client who doesn't even live in the city of Richmond trying to jump in.

Really, it makes me wish the state would just take a wrecking ball to the 20 foot high 12 ton statue & be done w/it.


cyclone88 - 6/10/2020 at 05:01 PM

In the "this is the 21st century in the US" spirit, two Confederate monuments were removed last week in AL - Birmingham & Mobile.

Elsewhere in Virginia, a county board decided to rename its recreation center from "Confederate Hills." Parents are asking school districts in another county to retitle schools named for famous Confederates. It's mind-boggling to me that Confederate-named anything has been allowed to exist 150+ years after the Confederate states were defeated & by proclamation were considered to be "of the whole United States."


BIGV - 6/10/2020 at 05:15 PM

quote:
It's mind-boggling to me that Confederate-named anything has been allowed to exist


"Been allowed"?

Is this not a free country?


BIGV - 6/10/2020 at 05:18 PM

quote:
quote:
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They serve no purpose beyond reminding black people that they were once slaves

So, using this same logic, both Washington and Jefferson were slave OWNERS and their images are on paper money which has far more exposure than a statue could ever dream of, When are they being removed from circulation?

The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves so they represent racism and slavery directly. Yes, the Founding Fathers owned slaves, and that's awful and how we revere them is worth a conversation (just as Columbus-worship has been for decades). But that's a different conversation than southern states continuing to lionize Confederates.


quote:
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves


No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...


porkchopbob - 6/10/2020 at 06:25 PM

quote:
quote:
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves

No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...

Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?


MartinD28 - 6/10/2020 at 11:14 PM

Was warching TV today and the topic was Trump's resistance on renaming military bases that were named after Confederate generals.

Steve Schmidt referred to Tump as the 2nd Confederate President. Seems like a good fit.

Trump: ďWonít ConsiderĒ Changing Base Names Honoring Confederates Who Fought for Slavery

https://www.newsandguts.com/trump-wont-consider-changing-base-names-honorin g-confederates-who-fought-for-slavery/


BIGV - 6/11/2020 at 01:15 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves

No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...

Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?


You call it semantics, as a Civil War buff, I will refer to it as accuracy


cyclone88 - 6/11/2020 at 12:49 PM

A real Whipping Post is gone. One Confederate statue situated on the site of a slave whipping post in Portsmouth VA was pulled down & 4 others were beheaded last night after the city council delayed a vote on removing the monuments. One protester in his 30s was injured when a piece of the statue hit him in the head when the rope pulling the statue down broke & he was taken to the hospital. The police had been ordered to stand by not to preserve property but life; they stepped in when the man was injured & the protesters disbanded w/o incident.

Later last night in Richmond, a 1907 paint-spattered statue of President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis was knocked down on Monument Ave in Richmond VA.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/us/richmond-jefferson-davis-statue-pulled-do wn-trnd/index.html

Although the mayor had announced plans to remove all Confederate statues on city land on the avenue ("Richmond is no longer the capitol of the Confederacy" per the mayor) following George Floyd's death & work had begun to ready the statue of Robert E. Lee for removal from state land on the avenue, two lawsuits were filed to prevent Lee's statue from being removed.


porkchopbob - 6/11/2020 at 01:32 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The distinction here is Confederates fought to keep their slaves

No, the "Confederacy" fought for this, less than 5% of individual Confederate soldiers actually owned slaves. Most fought for the defense of their states and a lot of units did not like leaving their own states to defend another...

Dude, seriously. This is semantics, goes to representation, this is a stretch. Lots of Confederate soldiers have statues do they?

You call it semantics, as a Civil War buff, I will refer to it as accuracy

While completely missing the point, so it's semantics.

[Edited on 6/11/2020 by porkchopbob]


BrerRabbit - 6/11/2020 at 04:04 PM

forgive cross threading and repeat posting, but here is another take on "Confederates did not own slaves" theme.

The Southern Confederacy was elite white privilege rallying their serfs to fight for a cause that would gain them nothing, victory nothing but a guarantee of strife for the enlisted.

I have been hearing a lot of the old "rank and file Confederates did not own slaves" stuff of late. And I agree. Unfortunaty, far from forgiving the poor Southern soldier the sins of his master (remember, massah was massah over all, not just blacks! In fact the truth is the average white man was more often than not WORTH LESS THAN A SLAVE. Hell, worth less than a horse! So yes, the masses rebelyelling themselves into bloody piles of rags straight into Union cannon fire - yes they were not slave owners. All this proves is they were being used by the wealthy elite as cannon fodder to protect slavery.

Slavery may have served its purpose in wrestling agriculture from raw wilderness on such a massive scale - possibly unachievable through more civilized means in that age. A lot of Africans died cutting out rice plantations from primordial swamp and cotton fields from choking jungle - but at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution that primitive and barbaric "peculiar institution" virtually guaranteed strife for all but the richest whites and the merchant class that served them.

Am trotting out this old Mark Twain warhorse, sorry to bore any who have seen my 20 other posts where I quoted this:

Mr. Twain, please put this baby to bed, thank you:

. . . the "poor whites" of our South who were always despised, and frequently insulted, by the slave lords around them, and who owed their base condition simply to the presence of slavery in their midst, were yet pusillanimously ready to side with the slave lords in all political moves for the upholding and perpetuating of slavery, and did also finally shoulder their muskets and pour out their lives in an effort to prevent the destruction of that very institution which degraded them. And there was only one redeeming feature connected with that pitiful piece of history; and that was, that secretly the "poor white" did detest the slave lord, and did feel his own shame. That feeling was not brought to the surface, but the fact that it was there and could have been brought out, under favoring circumstances, was something--in fact it was enough; for it showed that a man is at bottom a man, after all, even if it doesn't show on the outside.
- A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

[Edited on 6/11/2020 by BrerRabbit]


cyclone88 - 6/11/2020 at 04:20 PM

quote:
forgive cross threading and repeat posting, but here is another take on "Confederates did not own slaves" theme...Slavery may have served its purpose in wrestling agriculture from raw wilderness on such a massive scale - possibly unachievable through more civilized means in that age. A lot of Africans died cutting out rice plantations from primordial swamp and cotton fields from choking jungle - but at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution that primitive and barbaric "peculiar institution" virtually guaranteed strife for all but the richest whites and the merchant class that served them.

As was mentioned earlier, it is the British who started the importation of Africans after Native Americans proved unsuitable for the elite white colonialists' purpose either by refusal, war, or death from the diseases brought by the colonists. Per Lukester's post, even some Englishmen tossed a slave trader's statue into the Bristol harbor over the weekend because they were fed up w/debate not action on removing these hated symbols.


porkchopbob - 6/11/2020 at 04:29 PM

Yeah, "ownership" is not the root of the issue, and arguing it is an attempt to excuse while missing the broader issue. Hardly any wealthy owners actually fought at all. It's the culture and profiteering from slavery that the Confederacy, its Generals and those who fought under them, represent. Not to say the Union was without racism (many northern states are still filled with prejudice) and I'm sure there are those who see only an old white man who owned slaves when they see the Jefferson Memorial or a statue of Julius Caesar.


BrerRabbit - 6/11/2020 at 04:31 PM

^ Now we are into the mechanics of colonialism - pretty deep waters to navigate via the surface-skimmer of thread blurb. But yeah - and it is all still in play - and gotta say I am happy to see folks striking back at the ancient beast again.


2112 - 6/11/2020 at 08:53 PM

I'm finding it fascinating watching the GOP trying to decide whether they are the protector of the Confederacy or the "Party of Lincoln," finally realizing that they can't be both.


blackey - 6/11/2020 at 09:35 PM

It's interesting when I was growing up and a teen and young adult, the clearly racist politicians were Democrats. Richard Russell of Alabama was a horrible racist and close friend of President Johnson. Russell strongly opposed ending segregation and he and Johnson had a shouting match on the phone. A Senate office building in Washington continues to bear his name. George Wallace was a Democrat. Robert Byrd of West Virginia, close friend of Bill Clinton was a racist and once was in the KKK.

Most blacks in the 50's and 60's were Republicans because of Lincoln.

What I am curious about is the destruction of statues of Christopher Columbus. Christopher Columbus is too famous worldwide to erase. Here in America we have Washington, District of Columbia. Look up Columbia. Means Land of Columbus. Columbus, Ohio, Columbia, South Carolina, Columbus, Georgia, Columbus Circus in Manhattan. A province in Canada is British Columbia etc etc etc.

CC is far more famous than Robert E. Lee. Confederate flags and monuments are misplaced. They perhaps should be in museums. The Confederate States of America lost what they called " the war of northern aggression " and the fed's violation of states rights. But if a state is to be in the union, there are some things that membership requires and the free states and Lincoln found slavery to be brutal, immoral and unconstitutional. As President Lincoln said " We say all men are created equally and endowed with certain rights from their creator. But in practice not if you are a negro or a jew or a catholic ".


cyclone88 - 6/11/2020 at 11:02 PM

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CC is far more famous than Robert E. Lee. Confederate flags and monuments are misplaced. They perhaps should be in museums.

This seems to be the moment when Americans stand up & say, "the CSA lost the Civil War, there are 50 states in the US, and the time for symbols of/monuments to a CSA that existed for only 4 years before being defeated to come down is now." They're intimidating, divisive, & appealing symbols for white supremacists. They shouldn't be on public display anywhere in the US. As Rusty pointed out, most of them have no artistic value - having been made from the same mold w/just a different face - & don't belong in museums. Private collectors are welcome to them.

Columbus is an entirely separate issue that is, as you say, of global importance but isn't immediately critical to promoting unity & healing in the US. It doesn't bear as directly on the US except as you note in the etymology of geographic locations. The same could be said for many cities, towns, & states. The name of the state of Hawaii is from a polynesian mythological figure. Most of the 13 colonies were named to represent English/French figures & geography - Charles, Elizabeth, Raleigh, Georgia, York, Hampshire, de la Warre, Louis.


BrerRabbit - 6/11/2020 at 11:28 PM

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Columbus is an entirely separate issue that is, as you say, of global importance but isn't immediately critical to promoting unity & healing in the US. It doesn't bear as directly on the US except as you note in the etymology of geographic locations.


You must not have ever known any Native Americans. Columbus is a despised symbol to them. Columbus and Columbus day are salt in old wounds, to this day. Part and parcel of the same issue.

As long as we are cleaning house, might as well ditch that Columbus bastard while we are at it. He was a murderous slaving monster.

Time to knock em down! Glad I got to see this in my lifetime, and hope my lifetime of being against these symbols of depravity contributed to this.

Good going America!


[Edited on 6/12/2020 by BrerRabbit]


cyclone88 - 6/12/2020 at 01:02 AM

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quote:
As long as we are cleaning house, might as well ditch that Columbus bastard while we are at it. He was a murderous slaving monster.

I don't disagree, but no Native Americans died w/a white cop's foot on his neck for 9 minutes in the past month that has sparked outrage throughout the world. Today, people are focused on removing Confederate symbols created by Americans to be used against other Americans. Native Americans' biggest problem right now is getting the state of South Dakota to allow them check points to monitor visitors who might be sick w/ or carriers of COVID19.

Columbus was a European who came in & enslaved Native Americans. The Civil was was internal.

If Columbus statues are torn down - especially the one in Columbus Circle - along w/Confederate monuments, works for me.


cyclone88 - 6/12/2020 at 01:14 PM

Another statue down in Virginia. This morning at 7 am, a confederate statue in Norfolk VA was professionally removed at the mayor's direction. It was so nondescript that no one knows exactly how long it had been there & was known only as "Johnny Reb." It was moved to a cemetery of confederate soldiers.

The mayor ordered it removed ASAP after protesters' attempt to remove 4 statues in neighboring Portsmouth VA resulted in a broken piece of a statue hitting a man in the head & causing him to lose consciousness. He's reported to be in a medically induced coma w/life-threatening injuries.

Couldn't they all be professionally removed? People are tearing down statues both here & abroad; they're tired of debate & court shenanigans. The statues are coming down/being defaced one way or another.


Rusty - 6/12/2020 at 01:46 PM

Who's going to design the new American flag?


lukester420 - 6/12/2020 at 02:16 PM

quote:
Virginia, Nascar, Philadelphia, will reap what they have sown. If these institutions think that taking down a few statues is going to stop the Trump train, then I've got news for the left - we will win again in November riding a wave of the best economy this country has ever seen.


^HahahahahahahahahahHah Ahhhhhahahahaha. Very subtle


blackey - 6/12/2020 at 04:44 PM

You can't erase Christooher Columbus by removing his statues. Washington, D. C., Columbus, Ohio, British Columbia, the Columbia River, Columbus, Georgia etc etc etc. Statues in Spain, Ireland etc. Columbus is too famous to remove.

Mayor of New York promised to remove Christopher Columbus from Columbus circle then a group of Italian citizens raised hell and uninvited him to their annual celebration in Manhattan and de Blasio chucked out.

Columbia Records, Columbia Pictures, CBS...the Columbia Broadcasting System. Columbia University in New York City.

Columbia is a Latin toponym in use since 1730 with reference to the 13 Colonies which would go on to form The United States of America. It is a toponym from the name of the Italian explorer Christopher Columbus and means Land of Columbus.

Washington, District of Columbia or Land of Columbus.

How in hell could any protesters erase Chris' name or toppling 4 or 5 statues put a dent in Chris having a huge spot in U.S. and world history. It's like trying to drain a swamp with a tea spoon!!


BrerRabbit - 6/12/2020 at 05:45 PM

quote:
Columbus is too famous to remove.


Nobody is too famous to remove. We don't see Julius Caesarville much in England these days. Or Hitlerbahn in Germany.

Columbus is toast.


BrerRabbit - 6/12/2020 at 05:56 PM

quote:
Native Americans' biggest problem right now is getting the state of South Dakota to allow them check points to monitor visitors who might be sick w/ or carriers of COVID19.


Can't let this pass - won't further derail thread, but will just point out that you may want to brush up on your Native American history and current events. South Dakota pipeline ring a bell? Cops setting dogs on kids? Peabody Coal in Arizona gutting Navajo/Hopi land? Uranium mining? Strife at Pine Ridge? And on and on.




2112 - 6/12/2020 at 06:19 PM

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Virginia, Nascar, Philadelphia, will reap what they have sown. If these institutions think that taking down a few statues is going to stop the Trump train, then I've got news for the left - we will win again in November riding a wave of the best economy this country has ever seen.


Yeah, I think the Trump train jumped the tracks a while back. I'm not saying that he couldn't pull a miracle out of his hat by cheating his way to an electoral college win, but it really seems to be as unlikely as Coronavirus being gone by April.


BrerRabbit - 6/12/2020 at 06:25 PM

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Good riddance to the Columbus statues. Not sure why a European who found the Dominican Republic gets credit for discovering America. The people who deserve that credit are the Founding Fathers who made America great.


Agree on Columbus, I won't miss that murdering bastard in the least.

So, tell me which of the Founding Fathers should get the most credit for discovering America? Or should we just give them all equal credit for their heroic discovery of this great land?


cyclone88 - 6/12/2020 at 06:38 PM

quote:
Can't let this pass - won't further derail thread, but will just point out that you may want to brush up on your Native American history and current events. South Dakota pipeline ring a bell? Cops setting dogs on kids? Peabody Coal in Arizona gutting Navajo/Hopi land? Uranium mining? Strife at Pine Ridge? And on and on.


Pull yourself together, Mr. Rabbit. Muleman1994 or whatever he's calling himself is driving you off the rails. I was pointing out TODAY, 6/12/00, the most immediate problem for the Native American population is protecting themselves against COVID19 given that colonists & western "settlers" brought them almost every other disease known to Europeans that they couldn't survive. They're still getting heat about monitoring the entry/exit of possible carriers on the state highway; the governor finally conceded that she couldn't do anything about federal highways. So, although I'm well versed in history, I didn't see the need to drag that into what was originally a positive thread about municipalities finally realizing that Confederate monuments are abhorrent & coming down after the death of George Flloyd.

I'm also well aware of the Columbus problem - especially the NY politicians who crumble every single time they pretend they're going to remove the monument at Central Park South - & the history behind it. I pass the loathsome thing every single day.

You've become quite arrogant in the "you must've missed, forgotten, don't know" approach since the arrival of the mysterious new member that is most unlike you. Get a grip.




BrerRabbit - 6/12/2020 at 06:47 PM

^ Criticism fair and accepted. You don't know me, if you did you would know that I dedicated much of my life to the Native American cause - so yes I am springloaded on this - it isn't "arrogance" it is simply a matter I feel more strongly about, and have studied and directly experienced more than 99.99999 % per cent of Americans.

It is as relevant and timely as the rest of this revolution against White-washed history.

That said - I will bow out of your thread, which you have made clear is for discussion of Civil War monuments, and I apologize for expanding upon the topic.


cyclone88 - 6/12/2020 at 07:14 PM

quote:
^ Criticism fair and accepted. You don't know me, if you did you would know that I dedicated much of my life to the Native American cause - so yes I am springloaded on this - it isn't "arrogance" it is simply a matter I feel more strongly about, and have studied and directly experienced more than 99.99999 % per cent of Americans.

It is as relevant and timely as the rest of this revolution against White-washed history.

That said - I will bow out of your thread, which you have made clear is for discussion of Civil War monuments, and I apologize for expanding upon the topic.


No, I don't know you & am glad to hear of your expertise in Native American causes. You didn't bring Columbus or Washington/Jefferson or any other non-Confederate topics into the thread. The thread was started during the protests when Confederate monument heads literally started to roll. It's long overdue & I'd like to celebrate one thing before we (as much as this arcane music forum does anything) attack other issues. I personally can't do any more than COVID19, Confederate monuments, & get a handle on #Defundthepolice w/an occasional foray into Island Allman. I come here to get away from the bickering & one upsmanship of legal sites.

I used the term "arrogance" because starting off a thread w/"you must've missed, forgotten, don't know" is reminiscent of some other posters who do attack w/misplaced arrogance & I don't think that is your intention.

All good.


BrerRabbit - 6/12/2020 at 07:46 PM

^ I get it. Honestly man I in no way meant ignorant or stupid or don't care - You are possibly our most conscientious and well-rounded contributor. My approach was overconfident because I was assuming a trust. Which mostly does not translate well in Battlespace Cyberia. All good x2.

Nuf said - would like to add that this is great topic and I could not be happier that these changes are occurring. For me, a cause for celebration, not a controvery, and I fully concur it is a postive bright side to the more sinister developments.


MartinD28 - 6/12/2020 at 10:07 PM

quote:
quote:
Virginia, Nascar, Philadelphia, will reap what they have sown. If these institutions think that taking down a few statues is going to stop the Trump train, then I've got news for the left - we will win again in November riding a wave of the best economy this country has ever seen.


Yeah, I think the Trump train jumped the tracks a while back. I'm not saying that he couldn't pull a miracle out of his hat by cheating his way to an electoral college win, but it really seems to be as unlikely as Coronavirus being gone by April.


Well as long as there's voter suppression, he might have a slim chance, but each day looks worse for 1 term Trump. Will be one more reason for him to be jealous of Obama.


blackey - 6/13/2020 at 11:29 AM

You guys saying good riddance to Christopher Columbus Chris is still here. I said Chris IS TOO FAMOUS to expunge.

Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio said yesterday COLUMBUS CIRCLE AND THE STATUE OF CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS WILL NOT BE REMOVED!!!!!! The circle and statue have been in Manhattan since 1892, the 400th anniversary of Columbus' first voyage by ITALIANS living in New York City.

Mayor de Blasio agreed to change the name of Columbus Circle and remove the statue in response to a group of citizens who found the circle offensive and the Italian community in New York raised hell!!! They informed de Blasio they would NOT vote for him again and uninvited him to the yearly Italian celebration in New York City. De Blasio quickly changed his mind and Columbus Circle isn't going anywhere!!!!!

It is a total JOKE if anyone thinks Christopher Columbus has been removed.

Oh and Columbia University in Manhattan HAS NO PLANS TO CHANGE ITS NAME, NEITHER DOES WASHINGTON DC, COLUMBUS OHIO, COLUMBIA, SOUTH CAROLINA, BRITISH COLUMBIA AND THE COLUMBIA RIVER STILL FLOWS.

Christopher Columbus is TOO FAMOUS TO BE EXPUNGED!! His name is plastered all over North America and Europe. Too famous!


cyclone88 - 6/13/2020 at 05:39 PM

In a Sat morning session, an appeals court in Dallas granted the city's request to remove a 65' Confederate statue ASAP. The city has been bogged down in legal actions for a while, but the impetus (& winning argument) was that it's now a public safety issue. Because monuments have been toppled throughout the US & England, there is a danger that someone could be hurt should people decide there's been enough debate & it's time for action. A 30-yr-old man who was hit by a piece of a falling statue in Portsmouth VA is in a medically induced coma in life-threatening condition. The atrocity will be put in storage while further court appeals meander along.


BrerRabbit - 6/13/2020 at 05:54 PM

^ Starting to look like they are ALL gonna get taken down!


cyclone88 - 6/13/2020 at 06:08 PM

CSA President1 aka Jefferson Davis's statue in the KY capitol rotunda was removed this morning. A special meeting was held Friday to vote to remove the 12' 5 ton statue that has been an issue for years, but the killing of Briona Taylor in Louisville as well as the protests following the killing of George Floyd caused the governor to act quickly.

An empty bottle of Glenmore Kentucky straight bourbon was found in the base of the monument. Other "artifacts" include a note inside the bottle as well as a newspaper from the day of placement.

Interesting how years of court battles, preservation rulings, & stalled debates are quickly usurped by the danger that protesters are going to do the work themselves or current politicians are made to look out-of-touch & racist if these monuments aren't removed ASAP.


BrerRabbit - 6/13/2020 at 06:15 PM


Wonder what the note said?


cyclone88 - 6/13/2020 at 06:24 PM

quote:

Wonder what the note said?


THAT requires scientific analysis in a safe environment...Guess it's important to preserve a 1936 bourbon bottle in KY.


blackey - 6/13/2020 at 07:35 PM

Confederate monuments should be put in museums. Most of these were erected long after the Civil War. And they are only in southern states for the most part. Places in cemeteries would be okay where Confederate soldiers lay. Columbus, Ohio has one where a civil war prison camp once was located and the enemy soldiers were given decent burials as hundreds died of disease, some just teenagers.

Christopher Columbus is nationwide and worldwide. Chris is too big and famous to be removed plus it will piss off the Italians as it did in Manhattan


cyclone88 - 6/14/2020 at 02:27 PM

quote:
Confederate monuments should be put in museums. Most of these were erected long after the Civil War. And they are only in southern states for the most part. Places in cemeteries would be okay where Confederate soldiers lay.

There are more than 700 of these monstrosities throughout the country, including CA, MT, AZ, CO, HI, ID, NM, OK, UT, & WY in addition to all the states that participated in both sides of the Civil War. As far as I can tell, only AK & MA don't have any so it's a national problem. As they were rarely commissioned, they were all cast from the same molds & have no artistic value. I don't care where they end up as long as it's not public space.


BrerRabbit - 6/14/2020 at 07:21 PM

^ 700! Damn. Just read (Smithsonian) the US taxayer is maintaining these and funding Confederate heritage groups to the tune of 40 million $ a year.

I couldn't find any in Oregon. Surprising, as Oregon is the most racist state in the Union. There were Black Exclusion laws written into the Oregon Constitution , blacks (the few that dared to live here) were not allowed to own property until the 1920s. To this day blacks avoid Oregon - we only have 2% black population here. Big KKK in the early 20th century, Whites Only signs into the 1960s, lots of Aryan Nation and White Identity groups today.

So the new hipster Oregonians from elsewhere like to think they are progressive - but the native white Oregonians where I live are worse racists than you find anywhere else.

So I wish we had a monument to tear down, bring attention to Oregon's shameful secret.


BrerRabbit - 6/14/2020 at 09:22 PM

quote:
Boston holds the bloodlines of our origins


(Sorry cyclone, off topic, but this guy took a dump on your thread and needs to be called out while it is still steaming). "Our origins" . . . Of course you are just working on your White Supremacist pig-holler here, but another angle on this is that yes, America's many bloodlines are well-represented in Boston, a multi-ethnic city.



[Edited on 6/14/2020 by BrerRabbit]


cyclone88 - 6/14/2020 at 11:00 PM

quote:
^ 700! Damn. Just read (Smithsonian) the US taxayer is maintaining these and funding Confederate heritage groups to the tune of 40 million $ a year. I couldn't find any in Oregon. Surprising, as Oregon is the most racist state in the Union.

So I wish we had a monument to tear down, bring attention to Oregon's shameful secret.


Sorry, I missed the lack of one in OR on the Map of Hate (So. Poverty Law Center). In addition to monuments, there are 100s more parks, roads, streets, natural features, etc. that have Confederate names & maintained by taxpayers. I omitted them because it's the monuments that are the most visible, were specifically placed to be intimidating, & most divisive.


cyclone88 - 6/14/2020 at 11:06 PM

quote:
quote:
Boston holds the bloodlines of our origins

(Sorry cyclone, off topic, but this guy took a dump on your thread and needs to be called out while it is still steaming). "Our origins" . . . Of course you are just working on your White Supremacist pig-holler here, but another angle on this is that yes, America's many bloodlines are well-represented in Boston, a multi-ethnic city.
[Edited on 6/14/2020 by BrerRabbit]


I don't have proprietary threads, but I do run off the tired old scuffles some of the usual suspects get into over semantics & rhetorical questions that make threads hard to read. I skip anything posted by that newbie so didn't notice what he said. Have at him.


porkchopbob - 6/15/2020 at 12:51 PM

quote:
hence why Boston is our oldest city that started everything.

Boston was founded in 1630, after European-founded cities St Augustine, Albany, Plymouth, Hopewell, and New Amsterdam.


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 03:01 PM

quote:
Boston was founded in 1630, after European-founded cities St Augustine, Albany, Plymouth, Hopewell, and New Amsterdam.

Speaking of Virginia, Jamestown was settled by the 1st English speakers in 1607 followed by Polish & German speakers w/in 2 years. Of course, the Powhatan tribes had been there for at least a century beforehand.


blackey - 6/15/2020 at 03:03 PM

Interesting. I thought only states that left the union and joined the Confederacy put up Confederate monuments. And most of those were installed in the 20th century to heal their wounds from loosing the war of northern aggression and to protect states rights as they called it. But often the memorials and the Confederate Flag was used to signal to blacks not to get out of line during segregation and Jim Crow. I remember when President Johnson signed the civil rights law in 1964 abolishing segregation in all 50 states as unconstitutional.

Many operations in the south suddenly became private clubs. Private bars, nightclubs, country clubs and blacks and Jews were denied membership.

But many restaurants, hotels and movie theaters obeyed the law and began allowing blacks in.

I'm not sure how Christopher Columbus got his name on so many things but in Manhattan his statue and circle near Central Park will remain. Mayor de Blasio got heavy push back from the Italian population. Columbus sailed for Spain but he was Italian.

Many Jews must not have a problem with Columbus. I think it was people from Latin America in New York who wanted Columbus removed. Harry Cohn, a Jew, named his motion picture studio Columbia Pictures and CBS television network stands for Columbia Broadcasting System.

One person on CNN suggested changing Washington, DC to Obama, IP. Drop the first President for the first black President and replace DC ( District of COLUMBIA) with IP (Indigenous People).

Good luck!!! It would take an act of Congress to rename the nation's capital. It was established by the U.S. Constitution. Then 2/3rds of the states would have to approve. Don't hold your breath. I predict not even your grandchildren will see Washington, DC get a name change. It's way, way too late and the name is too famous.


BIGV - 6/15/2020 at 03:15 PM

Funny how the left can conveniently look at the main issue here of Slavery which the DEMOCRATS are responsible for in the 1860's as something from the past and then in the same breath preach that the removal of STATUES commemorating that same period of time "Fixes" everything!


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 03:26 PM

quote:
Interesting. I thought only states that left the union and joined the Confederacy put up Confederate monuments. And most of those were installed in the 20th century to heal their wounds from loosing the war of northern aggression and to protect states rights as they called it. But often the memorials and the Confederate Flag was used to signal to blacks not to get out of line during segregation and Jim Crow. I remember when President Johnson signed the civil rights law in 1964 abolishing segregation in all 50 states as unconstitutional.

There's never been anything healing about Confederate monuments. It's exactly as you said - installed in the 1890s through the 1950s to intimidate blacks.

There have been debates for decades about removing them given what we know to be true, but George Floyd's killing seems to have spurred people to action. Either they'll be knocked down by civilians or carefully removed w/precautions by local governments. As I've said before - amazing how quickly all those lengthy procedures were bypassed to get them down in less than a day in some places.

The latest ones include:

A 59' foot tall monument in Hemmings Park, Jacksonville (sorry, Trump, it won't be there in August)
Nashville
Murray KY (pending)


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 03:36 PM

quote:
Funny how the left can conveniently look at the main issue here of Slavery which the DEMOCRATS are responsible for in the 1860's as something from the past and then in the same breath preach that the removal of STATUES commemorating that same period of time "Fixes" everything!

I normally don't respond to your gibberish, but the English brought slaves to the US to supplement the Native Americans enslaved by colonists who either fought them, relocated, or died of European diseases. No one here is preaching anything. This thread celebrates the fact that some of the 700 Confederate monuments built throughout the US to intimidate blacks are coming down after decades of BS arguments about historic preservation. It's ONE tiny step towards racial healing in this country about 150 years too late. The fact that anyone opposes the removal of an object meant to taunt one race that another is superior seems counter to both the constitution & the Civil Rights Act enacted 55+ years ago. No political affiliation addressed beyond being an American.


BrerRabbit - 6/15/2020 at 03:38 PM

quote:
Speaking of Virginia, Jamestown was settled by the 1st English speakers in 1607


I am directly descended from a settler of Jamestown - Elizabeth Stout. Herstory is the stuff of legend. Kidnapped by Indians as a little child - hidden in a hollow tree - survived on grubs snd whatever she found - was found by another tribe, raised Indian, as a young woman the Jamestown colonists located her - she did not want to return - she came back and during her life was a strong go between negotiator with the Indians. A well written account of her life can be found in the book "Women In A Violent Time" also it has been fictionalized in several novels.

Also my great x ? grandfather was in Washington's Cabinet as the First Postmaster General of the USA .

Way off topic and has nothing to do with anything other than maybe showing that like PattyG I am oldschool Liberal America, love this country, and these mouth breathing White Supremacist trogs who want to whine about statues and grasp at Leif Erickson straws can go sail off the edge of the world for all I care.


[Edited on 6/15/2020 by BrerRabbit]


porkchopbob - 6/15/2020 at 03:42 PM

quote:
Funny how the left can conveniently look at the main issue here of Slavery which the DEMOCRATS are responsible for in the 1860's as something from the past and then in the same breath preach that the removal of STATUES commemorating that same period of time "Fixes" everything!

Democrats aren't "responsible" for slavery. It wasn't a partisan issue, the slave trade was international and precedes the founding of the Democratic Party in 1828.

And no one said it fixes "everything". But it helps.


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 03:44 PM

quote:
Good luck!!! It would take an act of Congress to rename the nation's capital.

As I've mentioned before, this thread is about the good news that Confederate monuments are coming down.

Columbus has nothing to do w/this thread. If someone wants to start one about him, feel free.

As for Jews of which I am one, you might find an old (1988) book called An Empire of Their Own by Neal Gabler (also Jewish) about how the film industry was theoretically invented by Jews.


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 03:59 PM

quote:
I am directly descended from a settler of Jamestown - Elizabeth Stout.

You ARE an interesting commenter. I'll find the book for cont'd lockdown reading.


2112 - 6/15/2020 at 04:29 PM

quote:
Funny how the left can conveniently look at the main issue here of Slavery which the DEMOCRATS are responsible for in the 1860's as something from the past and then in the same breath preach that the removal of STATUES commemorating that same period of time "Fixes" everything!




You can repeat over and over that Democrats are responsible for slavery, but political party platforms have changed a bit in the last 150 years. At least today's Democrats seem to know where they stand. Meanwhile the Republicans are still trying to figure out if they are the "Party of Lincoln" or "The defenders of the Confederacy." You literally can't be both, as much as Republicans seem to want to claim both.


porkchopbob - 6/15/2020 at 04:41 PM

quote:
Meanwhile the Republicans are still trying to figure out if they are the "Party of Lincoln" or "The defenders of the Confederacy." You literally can't be both, as much as Republicans seem to want to claim both.

Yeah, the Republican Party's platform has changed a little since 1864. In addition to condemning slavery, they referred to the Confederacy as "traitors" - probably not an endorsement for hundreds of statues.
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/republican-party-platform-1864

Other highlights that are still relevant:

quote:
That foreign immigration, which in the past has added so much to the wealth, development of resources and increase of power to the nation, the asylum of the oppressed of all nations, should be fostered and encouraged by a liberal and just policy.

quote:
That the National faith, pledged for the redemption of the public debt, must be kept inviolate, and that for this purpose we recommend economy and rigid responsibility in the public expenditures, and a vigorous and just system of taxation;

quote:
That we approve the position taken by the Government that the people of the United States can never regard with indifference the attempt of any European Power to overthrow by force or to supplant by fraud the institutions of any Republican Government on the Western Continent


BrerRabbit - 6/15/2020 at 04:52 PM

quote:
If they think removing statues is going to stop our movement, they can go pound sand. #MAGA!!


OK, instead of all these cryptic hints and thinly veiled allusions, how about telling us what exactly your movement is?

Let's see, to deduce from the statement that removal of Confederate monuments can't stop this mystery movement . . . hmm . . .

What if I said that getting rid of statues of Hitler in Germany after WW2 was not going to stop my movement? What would the simple deduction be? You would think I was a Nazi, correct?

The most obvious conclusion is you are a White Supremacist.



[Edited on 6/15/2020 by BrerRabbit]


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 05:06 PM

quote:
Who's going to design the new American flag?

Melania.


MartinD28 - 6/15/2020 at 05:39 PM

quote:
quote:
Who's going to design the new American flag?

Melania.


I hope that turns out better than her cyber bullying initiative.


Jerry - 6/15/2020 at 06:30 PM

quote:
quote:
Decided not to do the "modern example" since it might (might hell, would) cause some decidedly vile remarks thrown my way about comparing blacks to*********.


I was enjoying the thread and hoping to hear you continue. I wouldn't censor your knowledge of history because a few people might find it objectionable.


Appreciate the thought BMack9911.

Still, there are some here that can't understand that if you don't take, or refuse, possession of something willed to you, you don't own it.
So here is a modern example:
You are willed a dump truck by a well meaning relative. You don't want it, or need it. You tell the executor you don't want it. The executor finds some one who will take possession of the truck.
Now, did you ever own the truck?


Jerry - 6/15/2020 at 06:35 PM

quote:
CSA President1 aka Jefferson Davis's statue in the KY capitol rotunda was removed this morning. A special meeting was held Friday to vote to remove the 12' 5 ton statue that has been an issue for years, but the killing of Briona Taylor in Louisville as well as the protests following the killing of George Floyd caused the governor to act quickly.

An empty bottle of Glenmore Kentucky straight bourbon was found in the base of the monument. Other "artifacts" include a note inside the bottle as well as a newspaper from the day of placement.

Interesting how years of court battles, preservation rulings, & stalled debates are quickly usurped by the danger that protesters are going to do the work themselves or current politicians are made to look out-of-touch & racist if these monuments aren't removed ASAP.




I wonder why there was a statue of Jefferson Davis in the Kentucky Capitol. While Kentucky was a slave state, it was also a Union state and was never in the C.S A.

Which kinda counteracts the theme "The war was fought to free slaves."


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 07:29 PM

quote:
I wonder why there was a statue of Jefferson Davis in the Kentucky Capitol. While Kentucky was a slave state, it was also a Union state and was never in the C.S A.


Davis was born in Fairview KY. The statue was placed in the Rotunda in 1936 by the UDC to "reaffirm white supremacy amid threats of lynchings and segregation that were prevalent at the time," according to the Historic Properties Advisory Committee. Although he requested to be buried in his native Kentucky, his widow accepted Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond VA's offer to bury him along w/28 Confederate generals.


Jerry - 6/15/2020 at 08:48 PM

quote:
quote:
I wonder why there was a statue of Jefferson Davis in the Kentucky Capitol. While Kentucky was a slave state, it was also a Union state and was never in the C.S A.


Davis was born in Fairview KY. The statue was placed in the Rotunda in 1936 by the UDC to "reaffirm white supremacy amid threats of lynchings and segregation that were prevalent at the time," according to the Historic Properties Advisory Committee. Although he requested to be buried in his native Kentucky, his widow accepted Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond VA's offer to bury him along w/28 Confederate generals.




I had forgotten he was born there since he spent most of hid life around Mississippi and Louisiana.
What I remember about his burials was that his wife didn't want him buried on their plantation due to frequent flooding, he was first buried in Metier at New Orleans.
She later took petitions from places that wanted him buried there, and Macon was one of those places.

Interesting note for those who care: Davis was captured on one of the family farms close to where I was born.


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 10:41 PM

quote:
I had forgotten he was born there since he spent most of hid life around Mississippi and Louisiana.
Interesting note for those who care: Davis was captured on one of the family farms close to where I was born.


It's interesting that he was captured near where you were born. Although he went to Congress from Mississippi, he seemed to have wanderlust both before & after the war - ranging from Montreal, Liverpool, Memphis to Cuba & lots of places in between. He expressed in writing several times that he wanted to be buried on his family's plantation near Vicksburg, but as you say, it was out of the question due to flooding (& estate litigation). His second choice was KY - either Louisville or next to a church that he'd dedicated built on the site of his birthplace. Apparently, he was ruined financially & his widow would only accept charity through a trust that preferred Richmond given its status as capitol of the Confederacy. So, his body was moved from Metarie LA to Richmond. Interesting that he was pardoned for treason by Pres Andrew Johnson but didn't have his US citizenship restored until 1978 through an act of Congress signed by Carter.


Jerry - 6/15/2020 at 11:09 PM

Did you ever watch a History series called "Curse of Civil War Gold"?
The episode where they searched a field close to where Davis was captured (actually across the road from there)
belongs to one of my 3rd or 4th cousins, my Dad and I did a lot of Quail hunting there.
I've wanted so many times to e-mail the show and tell them the legend of the gold never leaving Macon, but hidden in a cave close to the river.


cyclone88 - 6/15/2020 at 11:19 PM

quote:
Did you ever watch a History series called "Curse of Civil War Gold"?
The episode where they searched a field close to where Davis was captured (actually across the road from there)
belongs to one of my 3rd or 4th cousins, my Dad and I did a lot of Quail hunting there.
I've wanted so many times to e-mail the show and tell them the legend of the gold never leaving Macon, but hidden in a cave close to the river.


I'll add it to my Covid Viewing list. Thanks.
Definitely write the producer/director if there's more to the story.


lukester420 - 6/16/2020 at 02:49 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Decided not to do the "modern example" since it might (might hell, would) cause some decidedly vile remarks thrown my way about comparing blacks to*********.


I was enjoying the thread and hoping to hear you continue. I wouldn't censor your knowledge of history because a few people might find it objectionable.


Appreciate the thought BMack9911.

Still, there are some here that can't understand that if you don't take, or refuse, possession of something willed to you, you don't own it.
So here is a modern example:
You are willed a dump truck by a well meaning relative. You don't want it, or need it. You tell the executor you don't want it. The executor finds some one who will take possession of the truck.
Now, did you ever own the truck?


WEAK! If an executor finds a new owner for you, it was indeed yours on paper. Whether you wanted it or not it was willed to you, it was yours.

You're really grasping at straws anyway with that argument but what of the slaves included in the estate Mr. Lee was the executor of? Why did Mr. Lee petition to keep them as slaves rather than setting them free?

That modern example doesn't make you racist, if someone wanted to call you out on that they would point out that you think its ok to use the N word because Al Sharpton said it.....that and you go a diatribe of whitewashed history anytime the Confederate monument subject comes up.


BrerRabbit - 6/16/2020 at 03:44 AM

It makes no difference if Robert E. Lee was bloody Ghandi, uniting all in peace and simplicity - the statues are a symbol, they generate certain reactions as the world changes, and now they are toast. They mean nothing. Let's face it, statues are kinda dumb anyway.

After Trump and your Neo-CSA win Civil War ll you can have a White Lives Matter thing and tear down MLK's statue, sound fair? Gotta be an MLK statue someplace, that's strange, I just realized I have no idea where a monument to a famous black peacemaker is - see? I am a frekin racist, I should know that!


blackey - 6/16/2020 at 12:26 PM

BrerRabbit. There is a big statue of Dr. King in my hometown. There are buttons one can push and hear excerpts from sermons.
It is at one end of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Pedestrian Bridge. The bridge isn't very wide but it use to carry traffic over 5 or 6 railroad tracks one way and was built in 1891 as the Henry Street bridge for Patrick Henry. The street that now stops where the bridge begins is still called Henry Street. There is also Jefferson St, Franklin Rd, Washington Ave and King George Ave. These names date back to the 1800's for these streets.

cyclone88. Yes Jewish men started the motion picture industry. All 4 Warner Brothers, Samuel Goldwyn, Marques Lowe, Louie B. Mayer, Harry Cohn ( Columbia Pictures), Adolph Zucker ( Paramount) etc were all Jews.

As a teen I work in the local theaters in my hometown changing signs, movie posters and ushering and the 4 I was with were owned by Elmore Hines who was Jewish and a great guy. He was a baseball player when he was young. He also had pool halls, a bowling alley and 2 cigar stores with soda fountains and drugs.


cyclone88 - 6/16/2020 at 02:51 PM

quote:
cyclone88. Yes Jewish men started the motion picture industry. All 4 Warner Brothers, Samuel Goldwyn, Marques Lowe, Louie B. Mayer, Harry Cohn ( Columbia Pictures), Adolph Zucker ( Paramount) etc were all Jews.


Just thought you'd find the book interesting. The major industries on the East Coast were dominated by WASPs. The combination of sunny California & the brand new field of making movies led to what was referred to as a Jewish Empire in the early 20th century.


cyclone88 - 6/17/2020 at 02:29 PM

No confederate pulldowns in Atlanta despite the killing of Rayshard Brooks. On Friday, however, a DeKalb County (which includes some part of Atlanta) judge ordered the removal of its Confederate obelisk by no later than 6/26. Seems public safety is the winning argument for circumventing various ordinances, preservation status, & other obstacles to get rid of these monuments.

The city commissioned a report about how to deal w/monuments & street names in 2017 after Charlottesville. Streets have been renamed. Many of the statues are already in cemeteries w/Confederate soldiers which was deemed acceptable. No action has been taken on Jim Crow & Civil Rights era monuments.




BIGV - 6/17/2020 at 06:08 PM

Some moron set the National Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus, Ga. on fire destroying a sh*tload of history.

Where is the line drawn as to where history is deemed offensive?


porkchopbob - 6/17/2020 at 06:26 PM

quote:
Some moron set the National Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus, Ga. on fire destroying a sh*tload of history.

Well that's just dumb and ignorant of him. Statues and public displays are how we honor those we revere. Museums are how we preserve our history, warts and all.


porkchopbob - 6/17/2020 at 06:32 PM

Meanwhile, Santa Fe military cosplayers incite a dumpster fire.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/ap/man-arrested-in-shooting-during-albuqu erque-statue-protest/article_38c5c2c0-03e0-5946-9036-9f9611fefeae.html


BIGV - 6/17/2020 at 06:39 PM

quote:
quote:
Where is the line drawn as to where history is deemed offensive?


Brother BIGV, donít insinuate that the criminalís line is the same as anyone elseís, otherwise it will give those libs ammunition to use against us. We canít let our guard down and make stupid mistakes like this. Just follow my lead brother.


Thanks Boynton Brother!....

I'll be sure to let the Administrators know you have returned!


cyclone88 - 6/17/2020 at 07:55 PM

quote:
Some moron set the National Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus, Ga. on fire destroying a sh*tload of history. Where is the line drawn as to where history is deemed offensive?

Can't answer that question, but for all we know it was the name Columbus that triggered the arson.

There was a time when even elementary students knew that museums preserved & protected the art & artifacts of a culture. It was a safe place where scholars & curious citizens came to enjoy or learn or expand their points of view. I don't think people recognize that now. People see a buzz word - Confederate - & charge ahead w/o consideration or deliberation.

This thread focuses on statues of no intrinsic value that were deliberately placed in high visibility locations to remind blacks of their subservient position to white men. Evidence provided by those who erected them note that there is nothing honorable about them; their purpose is purely intimidation.

Some of those statutes - like the ones in Atlanta - are already in cemeteries for Confederate soldiers and/or have plans to be removed to museums where they'll serve an educational purpose.

Apparently, the most valuable pieces in the naval collection weren't affected. There's a reward for information leading to the arsonist who caused damage to the outbuilding of the museum & 2 ships.

https://www.wrbl.com/news/crime/reward-being-offered-in-arson-case-at-natio nal-civil-war-naval-museum/


blackey - 6/17/2020 at 08:48 PM

A statue of an abolitionist was defaced and jerked down too. Some of these people just want to burn and destroy anything. Why burn down the Wendy's in Atlanta were Mr. Brooks was shot and killed by Atlanta police? Now 36 people don't have a job because their restaurant was destroyed. Atlanta Police is trying to identify the arsonists and arrest them. The people destroying these statues need to be arrested too. In Virginia the Governor is having them removed by professionals safely. A protester was seriously injured by a statue being toppled. They are heavy.

Check Wikipedia to see how many things are named for Robert E. Lee in this country. I was astonished. In Virginia there is Washington and Lee University. Named for George Washington originally and Lee's name was added in the 1800's.

Columbus, Georgia going to change its name? Columbus, Ohio?, Columbia, South Carolina?, Washington, District of Columbia?, British Columbia?, Columbia River?, Columbia Pictures?, Columbia University?, CBS Columbia Broadcasting System.

NONE of these will be changed. Columbus Circle in Manhattan and the big statue of Christopher Columbus in the middle isn't going anywhere!!! New York mayor Bill de Blasio was open to removing it and changing the name of the circle which was erected by New York Italians in 1892 on the 400th anniversary of Columbus's voyage. But city Italians hit the ceiling. De Blasio was uninvited to their annual Manhattan parade and informed they would no longer support him. De Blasio and Governor Cuomo agreed Columbus is going nowhere in New York City. The Italian's won't stand for it. De Blasio was prodded to remove Columbus by some Latian American people but the Italian people yelled louder and that was that. Columbus Circle isn't going anywhere. Columbus was financed by Spain but was an Italian as you know.


porkchopbob - 6/17/2020 at 08:57 PM

"Once you carve it in stone, it is written forever"
- Constantine the Great

Well, I made that up. But you get the point.


cyclone88 - 6/17/2020 at 09:04 PM

quote:
Some of these people just want to burn and destroy anything. Why burn down the Wendy's in Atlanta were Mr. Brooks was shot and killed by Atlanta police? Now 36 people don't have a job because their restaurant was destroyed.

I understand the frustration re the monuments, but it is dangerous. As one person in England said - "enough debate; time for action." When 4 monuments were beheaded in Portsmouth VA last weekend, a falling piece of the monument hit a bystander who is in critical condition in the hospital w/a head injury. The next day, the mayor of the neighboring city Norfolk had crews out at 7 am removing their monument. Statutes in both Louisville & DeKalb were/are being removed ASAP for public safety reasons.

Some of these statues are enormous which is why I include height & weight where it's available. The one in Dallas was 65 feet tall!!!!!

There are more than 700 of these statues throughout the US w/only 3 states w/none - OR, AK, MT. I'm only posting about Confederate monuments because they're immediately relevant now. They were erected specifically to intimidate blacks.

Columbus is a whole other matter I don't know enough about to even mention although I understand there have been incidents involving statues to him & other western "conquerors" in southwestern states. I think it's a mistake to lump Confederate & Columbus together.

[Edited on 6/17/2020 by cyclone88]


Jerry - 6/17/2020 at 10:27 PM


WEAK! If an executor finds a new owner for you, it was indeed yours on paper. Whether you wanted it or not it was willed to you, it was yours.


NOPE, did that in caps so you would see it.
Have you never heard of disclaiming an inheritance? If not, look it up.



MartinD28 - 6/17/2020 at 11:46 PM

quote:
quote:
Some of these people just want to burn and destroy anything. Why burn down the Wendy's in Atlanta were Mr. Brooks was shot and killed by Atlanta police? Now 36 people don't have a job because their restaurant was destroyed.

I understand the frustration re the monuments, but it is dangerous. As one person in England said - "enough debate; time for action." When 4 monuments were beheaded in Portsmouth VA last weekend, a falling piece of the monument hit a bystander who is in critical condition in the hospital w/a head injury. The next day, the mayor of the neighboring city Norfolk had crews out at 7 am removing their monument. Statutes in both Louisville & DeKalb were/are being removed ASAP for public safety reasons.

Some of these statues are enormous which is why I include height & weight where it's available. The one in Dallas was 65 feet tall!!!!!

There are more than 700 of these statues throughout the US w/only 3 states w/none - OR, AK, MT. I'm only posting about Confederate monuments because they're immediately relevant now. They were erected specifically to intimidate blacks.

Columbus is a whole other matter I don't know enough about to even mention although I understand there have been incidents involving statues to him & other western "conquerors" in southwestern states. I think it's a mistake to lump Confederate & Columbus together.

[Edited on 6/17/2020 by cyclone88]


Maybe the ones that haven't been destroyed can be moved to Mar A Lago. Seems like a good fit.


Jerry - 6/18/2020 at 12:06 AM



[Edited on 6/17/2020 by cyclone88]




Maybe the ones that haven't been destroyed can be moved to Mar A Lago. Seems like a good fit.


To MartinD28, I see no problem if the monuments are moved to private property with the property owners, or local organizations, responsible for the upkeep.


lukester420 - 6/18/2020 at 03:03 AM

quote:
Why did Mr. Lee petition to keep them as slaves rather than setting them free?


Crickets. I guess you missed that part since it wasnít all caps, but please continue to give us all your justifications of why you get all crotchety every time a monument to White Supremacy falls. I get it, your family didnít own slaves, the Civil War wasnít about slavery for all enlisted partyís it was perceived self preservation, but to continue to deny that for the elites of the South there was any one issue more important than continuing the practice of chattel slavery falls into the category of whitewashed history.


blackey - 6/18/2020 at 08:17 PM

Once Lincoln remarked after hearing a southern politition speak to a group of men about the benefits of slavery. "My dear man. If slavery affords such benefits, then submit to being a slave yourself then report to us".

Revelation 3:20 " I am at the door knocking. If anyone opens, I will go in and dine with them and they with me".

Some scholars doubt Jesus even existed as a historical character. Many more reject many New Testament claims about him. I don't know whether they are right or wrong. But whoever wrote these words attributed to Jesus 2,000 years ago ignored secterian concerns and racial or sexual superiority. It is agreed the words were originally written in Greek. In the Greek the word translated "anyone" or some translations "man" means MANKIND. Male, female, red, yellow, black or white.

Thus the character Jesus, made up or historical, human or divine, knocks on my door, your door in this story wanting to dine with us and be our friend no matter male, female, or what color or race. 2,000 years later how many have that kind of heart? Maybe Jaimoe would be one.


Stephen - 6/18/2020 at 11:17 PM

quote:


Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio said yesterday COLUMBUS CIRCLE AND THE STATUE OF CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS WILL NOT BE REMOVED!!!!!! The circle and statue have been in Manhattan since 1892, the 400th anniversary of Columbus' first voyage by ITALIANS living in New York City.



I donít know blackey - the statue in front of city hall in his namesake city of Columbus, (the capitol of) Ohio is coming down tomorrow & going into storage

Wonder if pressure from the PC crowd, coupled w/political expediency, will cause an about-face by the mayor & governor

[Edited on 6/18/2020 by Stephen]


cyclone88 - 6/18/2020 at 11:36 PM

quote:
I donít know blackey - the statue in front of city hall in his namesake city of Columbus, (the capitol of) Ohio is coming down tomorrow & going into storage
Wonder if pressure from the PC crowd, coupled w/political expediency, will cause an about-face by the mayor & governor


Hey Stephen. BrerRabbit has started a Columbus thread so as not to commingle current Confederate protests and Columbus debates & activism. He's quite knowledgeable on the topic.


cyclone88 - 6/18/2020 at 11:39 PM

quote:
NONE of these will be changed. Columbus Circle in Manhattan and the big statue of Christopher Columbus in the middle isn't going anywhere!!! New York mayor Bill de Blasio was open to removing it and changing the name of the circle which was erected by New York Italians in 1892 on the 400th anniversary of Columbus's voyage. But city Italians hit the ceiling. De Blasio was uninvited to their annual Manhattan parade and informed they would no longer support him. De Blasio and Governor Cuomo agreed Columbus is going nowhere in New York City. The Italian's won't stand for it. De Blasio was prodded to remove Columbus by some Latian American people but the Italian people yelled louder and that was that. Columbus Circle isn't going anywhere. Columbus was financed by Spain but was an Italian as you know.


Hey blackey. BrerRabbit just started a thread on Columbus. He's much more equipped to discuss it. All I know is that I pass the one at Columbus Circle on a daily basis & it's been a contentious issue for at least 30 years.


cyclone88 - 6/19/2020 at 03:13 AM

2 Confederate statues were removed yesterday from Houston's city parks ahead of the Juneteenth celebrations. Both will be put in storage although there's a bizarre suggestion that one be put in Houston's Museum of African American Culture over the objection of the state NAACP Director.

The University of Mississippi got approval today to remove its Confederate statue from its entrance to the university's cemetery at some as yet to be determined date. It was erected in 1906 & dedicated by a political candidate for governor wearing a Confederate uniform. In 1906. Gubernatorial candidate in a Confederate uniform.

In both Houston & Oxford, the reasons for removing the statues was public safety.

[Edited on 6/19/2020 by cyclone88]


cyclone88 - 6/20/2020 at 03:29 PM

Seems like a good place to stop.

The Robert E Lee statue which the governor planned to remove is now being litigated in 3 cases - homeowners along the avenue are worried about losing the prestigious Monument Avenue luster & more importantly, favorable tax treatment. Concrete barriers have been installed around the statue but this morning, an armed man at the monument was taken into custody.

By the end of Juneteenth night, a statue in DC had been toppled as well as one outside the Raleigh capitol building.

There's definitely support that the monuments now are a threat to public safety. Thanks for indulging my interest.


porkchopbob - 6/23/2020 at 10:17 PM

quote:
quote:
I donít know blackey - the statue in front of city hall in his namesake city of Columbus, (the capitol of) Ohio is coming down tomorrow & going into storage

Sign the petition! Get Involved, Internet: Help rename Columbus, Ohio "Flavortown"

https://news.avclub.com/get-involved-internet-help-rename-columbus-ohio-fla -1844139064


This thread come from : Hittin' The Web with the Allman Brothers Band
https://allmanbrothersband.com/

Url of this website:
https://allmanbrothersband.com//modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&fid=127&tid=150091