Thread: Joe Said

OriginalGoober - 5/23/2020 at 02:05 AM

So its probably a few gaffes too late but I think its time for a thread to capture all of the jumbles and mis-speaks and failed one-liners.

Biden Apologizes for Saying Black Voters ‘Ain’t Black’ if They’re Considering Trump

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/22/us/politics/joe-biden-black-breakfast-cl ub.html


MartinD28 - 5/23/2020 at 02:17 AM

Yep - Joe being Joe. Can't help himself. But in the end it doesn't matter. The latest poll I saw showed minority vote of Joe at 90% and Trump at 3%. Looks like Trump is making it competitive.


nebish - 5/23/2020 at 04:21 AM

Heard him on CNBC this morning. He said he wants to transport coal and wind energy across the country. You get one of those screw ups, atleast, per interview. Trump, you get like 20. Although they aren't really screw ups in Trumps case.

Regarding the thread topic and Joes comments, what's the big deal, how was that offensive except for people looking out for stuff that is offensive - honestly we need to just offend everyone all the time seriously. People get over being offended. It's never stopping.


tcatanesi - 5/23/2020 at 10:18 PM

If you listen to the context in which the comment was made, it makes perfect sense.


Rusty - 5/23/2020 at 10:57 PM

Maybe Joe was taking a page from Warren Beatty? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA62refAB2w


PhotoRon286 - 5/24/2020 at 10:15 PM

What next, Joe repeats the lie about being named Michigan's Man of the Year?

Oh, wait.....


Rusty - 5/25/2020 at 01:20 PM

quote:
If you listen to the context in which the comment was made, it makes perfect sense.


Oh, hell no! Listen - I grew up attending inner-city schools in a couple of deep south cities (Atlanta and Birmingham). I attended grade school, high school and college - where I worked a menial service job (moving and storage) alongside a lot of "brothers". One thing I learned early on - NO white man gets to question the blackness of an African American person. We don't get to question their blackness or tell them how to BE black. We can me empathetic - even sympathetic - but we cannot challenge their being by "seeing the "perfect sense"" of Joe's statement.

Maybe Joe was taking his cues from Hollywood (the "Bulworth" clip - and even Billy Bob Thornton's character in "Primary Colors" ("Hell, I'm blacker than you!"). Regardless, he probably shouldn't have gone this route. I'm sure he'll be forgiven/forgotten by November.

Sorry for the lecture.


BIGV - 5/25/2020 at 01:28 PM

quote:
I'm sure he'll be forgiven/forgotten by November.


Well, if you are in the "Anybody but Trump" camp, I can see how you would certainly wish for this to be true. Maybe you should be asking yourself, "Is Joe Biden really the best the Democrats have to offer"?


Rusty - 5/25/2020 at 02:08 PM

quote:
quote:
I'm sure he'll be forgiven/forgotten by November.


Well, if you are in the "Anybody but Trump" camp, I can see how you would certainly wish for this to be true. Maybe you should be asking yourself, "Is Joe Biden really the best the Democrats have to offer"?


Anybody but Trump ... so long as they also ain't Joe.


2112 - 5/25/2020 at 08:30 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
I'm sure he'll be forgiven/forgotten by November.


Well, if you are in the "Anybody but Trump" camp, I can see how you would certainly wish for this to be true. Maybe you should be asking yourself, "Is Joe Biden really the best the Democrats have to offer"?


Anybody but Trump ... so long as they also ain't Joe.


One of those two will be the president. A vote for anybody else really just means you have no preference between those two choices.


BrerRabbit - 5/25/2020 at 08:58 PM

quote:
One of those two will be the president. A vote for anybody else really just means you have no preference between those two choices.


Exactly - and it subtracts a vote from whoever you would have voted for if you were holding your nose.


StratDal - 5/25/2020 at 09:58 PM

It wasn't the smartest thing to say that's for sure. Joe can be Joe. That being said, I'm okay with President Biden.


Rusty - 5/25/2020 at 10:17 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I'm sure he'll be forgiven/forgotten by November.


Well, if you are in the "Anybody but Trump" camp, I can see how you would certainly wish for this to be true. Maybe you should be asking yourself, "Is Joe Biden really the best the Democrats have to offer"?


Anybody but Trump ... so long as they also ain't Joe.


One of those two will be the president. A vote for anybody else really just means you have no preference between those two choices.


What it MEANS is that the Democrats picked their representative before my state held its primary. Yes, I can and did write-in my candidate of preference. Do you honestly believe that my vote carried anywhere near the same weight that it would have in an election with a full slate of candidates? Yes, I can choose but the CHOICES were made without my vote or input. As far as "having no preference between Donnie and Joe" - as SNL Weekend Update co-host, Colin Jost said, "Trump or Biden - either way, we're up for at least 4 years of comedy gold!" Colin is much more of an optimist than I am!


BrerRabbit - 5/25/2020 at 10:45 PM

Nobody cares if folks waste their vote. I think it is a good idea. I bet most of the votes tossed in the trash but for pride vanity self-delusion and denial would have been Trump votes, so go ahead, write in Charlie Daniels!


2112 - 5/25/2020 at 10:52 PM

Of course how much your individual vote means depends on where you live. Your individual vote in solid blue NY or California or solid red Oklahoma or North Dakota will almost certainly have zero impact on the outcome of the election compared to a vote in Florida or Pennsylvania. Let's be honest here. Unless you live in a swing state, your vote has already been decided for you.


BrerRabbit - 5/25/2020 at 11:14 PM

quote:
Let's be honest here. Unless you live in a swing state, your vote has already been decided for you.


I don't like this logic. This dynamic only holds true at a certain point in time during a given election. I suppose you could say ok my state is set as blue or red and not vote - however you want to keep your state blue or red you have to vote, or your state could turn purple, or shift opposite.

For example, most folks think Oregon is true-blue, it is not, at all, many counties teeter on the fence, while many others are fire engine red.
Another tectonic demographic shift is we have a massive influx of people pouring in from failing red states - it's like the Grapes of Wrath - I see Louisiana, Mississippi, Kentucky, plates all the time, more by the day - and they are bringing their votes and the values that killed the states they are fleeing with them. I don't get it at all - they like the clean air, water, easygoing people and economic opportunity so they run here and the first thing they want to do is trash it. There is a reason there aren't Oregon plates showing up in other states in droves. If you want Louisiana ll the Sequel just stay in Louisiana!


[Edited on 5/25/2020 by BrerRabbit]


2112 - 5/25/2020 at 11:29 PM

quote:
quote:
Let's be honest here. Unless you live in a swing state, your vote has already been decided for you.


I don't like this logic. This dynamic only holds true at a certain point in time during a given election. I suppose you could say ok my state is set as blue or red and not vote - however you want to keep your state blue or red you have to vote, or your state could turn purple, or shift opposite.

For example, most folks think Oregon is true-blue, it is not, at all, many counties teeter on the fence, while many others are fire engine red.
Another tectonic demographic shift is we have a massive influx of people pouring in from failing red states - it's like the Grapes of Wrath - I see Louisiana, Mississippi, Kentucky, plates all the time, more by the day - and they are bringing their votes and the values that killed the states they are fleeing with them. I don't get it at all - they like the clean air, water, easygoing people and economic opportunity so they run here and the first thing they want to do is trash it. If you want Louisiana ll the Sequel just stay in Louisiana!


[Edited on 5/25/2020 by BrerRabbit]


I'm not suggesting not voting, especially since down ballot races are just as important as the race for president. But the fact remains that votes in swing states and low population states are weighted much higher than those in California and New York.


BrerRabbit - 5/25/2020 at 11:36 PM

I get that man, what I am failing to articulate is swing states are not swing states forever, demographics change. Arizona almost turned blue in the 90s, now it is back to red. It is always shifting.

So yeah during a given election the results are a forgone conclusion, but the tidal forces are still in play.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 01:15 AM

quote:
quote:
One of those two will be the president. A vote for anybody else really just means you have no preference between those two choices.


Exactly - and it subtracts a vote from whoever you would have voted for if you were holding your nose.


I absolutely disagree with this logic. If and when you vote for the Candidate of your choice, you are participating in the process, which is sooo much better than not casting a vote at all. Me?...I really don't care for either of the two mainstream parties and for three of the last four elections I have voted a Straight Libertarian ticket with the exception being my vote for Obama in '08. This year my Vote goes straight to President Trump because I can't even imagine this country with Joe Biden behind the wheel...


BrerRabbit - 5/26/2020 at 01:33 AM

quote:
If and when you vote for the Candidate of your choice, you are participating in the process, which is sooo much better than not casting a vote at all.


I concur. And will add that when brave folks vote independently it is in many ways a much more important and valid vote than the holdyournose lesser of two evils votes. I was not saying they are out of the process, just that if they lean one way or another their vote will not count. But that could be outweighed by the honor of an actual vote of confidence.

I am cynical and think the two party system sucks. My vote reflects that and probably just makes it all worse, but no way I am writing in Jorma Kaukonen this year, although I think we could all really benefit from a decent guitarist in the White House.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 01:46 AM

quote:
I was not saying they are out of the process, just that if they lean one way or another their vote will not count.


That is exactly what you are saying.

quote:
their vote will not count.


If you Vote, your ballot is part of the tally. Just take a closer look at the result from the 1992 Presidential Election and tell me that Perot's total, "did not count"


BrerRabbit - 5/26/2020 at 01:59 AM

You made my point when you said a fiercely independent voter such as yourself - a very admirable postion btw, and influenced me to learn about the Libertarian Party - is breaking down to vote for Trump, whom you don't highly regard.

When I see solid Libertarians buckling and voting mainstream, it tells me that anything other than voting lesser of two evils in a two party state is, for all practical purposes, a pipe dream.


nebish - 5/26/2020 at 02:49 AM

My wife thinks only the Democrats and Republicans are on the ballot each Presidential election. I tell her, "if you don't like either one you don't have to vote for either one and you can still vote for President". I dream of a day independent candidates get a higher % of the vote than the duopoly. Vote 3rd party if you don't like the choice, don't just pick the familiar face or the lesser of two evils.


2112 - 5/26/2020 at 04:26 AM

quote:
You made my point when you said a fiercely independent voter such as yourself - a very admirable postion btw, and influenced me to learn about the Libertarian Party - is breaking down to vote for Trump, whom you don't highly regard.

When I see solid Libertarians buckling and voting mainstream, it tells me that anything other than voting lesser of two evils in a two party state is, for all practical purposes, a pipe dream.


Well, when the Libratarian candidate every election is a person who changes political affiliation between Republican and Libratarian back and forth whenever it suits their current agenda, it really tells you that a Libratarian is nothing but a subcategory of the Republican party and makes it hard to take them seriously. Amash, Johnson, Ron Paul have all switched back and forth between Republican and Libratarian. Lose the Republican primary - no problem, I'll switch to the Libratarian party for a while before I go back.

Bernie Sanders does this too. Kind of hard to take him seriously as a Democrat when he is an independent, except when he decides to run for president. Either your a Democrat or your not.

By the way, on paper I hold a lot of the same values as the Libratarians. But when it comes down to having to make a choice between two candidates who actually have a chance of winning, and I truly care about the outcome, I find it harder and harder to pick a Republican, even if the Democrats are moving more left than I prefer. There doesn't appear to be any place for a moderate in the Republican party anymore.


BrerRabbit - 5/26/2020 at 04:30 AM

quote:
Vote 3rd party if you don't like the choice, don't just pick the familiar face or the lesser of two evils.


Gotta say Dems and Repubs are making me ill, always have, but 2020 is a joke. Thanks to BigV I started taking Libertarians seriously a few years back. Libertarians actually put up a good challenger a couple days ago
, Jo Jorgensen Might just vote for her actually. Big plus is she is against that idiotic border wall and is for fast tracking legal immigration.


tcatanesi - 5/26/2020 at 02:30 PM

quote:
Oh, hell no! Listen...

"It would be stupid for African-Americans to support Donald Trump after what the President has done even if you're an African-American Republican," says Ravi Perry, an activist, and chair of the political science department at Howard University in Washington.

Perry says people outraged at Biden's comments ignore the context and an unwritten rule about racial remarks. A white person can't instruct black people on their racial identity. No pontificating about you can't be black if you like opera or anything like that.

They can, however, question the political identity and choices of a black person who votes for a President that spread a birther conspiracy theory about the nation's first black president, and said there were "very fine people on both sides" of a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, Perry says.

Biden's remarks were clumsy and off-putting but he had the right to ask that question, Perry says.

"His point is if you're voting for Trump in 2020 after all you've seen and heard, and you're a black person that certainly calls into question your black political identity," Perry says. "I agree with that wholeheartedly."


stormyrider - 5/26/2020 at 02:46 PM

I live in MA so the presidential here is a foregone conclusion. But, this blue state has had a GOP governor more often than not the past 20 years, and we had a GOP senator. Not voting is not even a possibility. I voted for John Anderson in 80 even though I knew it "wouldn't count"

We need to abolish the electoral college

Back to the topic, it was a stupid comment. The unwritten rule regarding minorities, imo, is that you can make fun of yourself, but no one else can (disclosure, I'm Jewish).
Biden's comment was off. The sentiment behind it was reasonable, there are MUCH better ways to have said it. Better yet would have been someone who is African American say it for him.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 02:52 PM

quote:
We need to abolish the electoral college


No way, no how, not ever.


stormyrider - 5/26/2020 at 03:45 PM

Agree it will never happen, but twice this century the winner of the popular lost the electoral.
All because of an institution that was at least in part created to appease the slave states.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 04:55 PM

quote:
Agree it will never happen, but twice this century the winner of the popular lost the electoral.
All because of an institution that was at least in part created to appease the slave states.


Disagree. It is because it is a Federal Election and all of the States must have EQUAL representation. Montana should have the same opportunity at being heard as N.Y. People CHOOSE to live in one state over another because of that states legislature and how their elected officials stand up for them. It's different in individual states, in Florida the people in Miami-Dade county vote differently than the people residing in Okaloosa Cty. on the panhandle, you make the decision to accept that by choosing to live in Fla, and not Maine. The states are all individually spoken for in the Congress and the Senate where they have an equal voice, why not go ahead and abolish them as well. We could have only the voters in N.Y. & California make choices and establish laws for everyone.


Rusty - 5/26/2020 at 05:55 PM

Here are a few ideas that I honestly would eliminate some problems:

1. NATIONAL Primaries Day - Hold ALL/EVERY state primary on the SAME FREAKIN' DAY! This way - everybody (including those of us who live in "red-headed stepchild" states) get the same opportunities to vote for the candidates that we want.

2. Eliminate the Electoral College - This archaic "institution" has more than once awarded the Presidency to the candidate who actually received the fewest votes. Sugar-coat this anyway you want, but this is a smoke and mirrors trick on the voters if there ever was one!

Best for last ...

3. The United STATE of America! - EVERY citizen has the EXACT SAME rights and privileges. What's legal there is legal here - same benefits for EVERY citizen.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 06:15 PM

quote:
1. NATIONAL Primaries Day - Hold ALL/EVERY state primary on the SAME FREAKIN' DAY! This way - everybody (including those of us who live in "red-headed stepchild" states) get the same opportunities to vote for the candidates that we want.


Fair/Good idea


2. Eliminate the Electoral College - This archaic "institution" has more than once awarded the Presidency to the candidate who actually received the fewest votes. Sugar-coat this anyway you want, but this is a smoke and mirrors trick on the voters if there ever was one!


No way, no how, not ever.

quote:
3. The United STATE of America! - EVERY citizen has the EXACT SAME rights and privileges. What's legal there is legal here - same benefits for EVERY citizen.



States rights my friend. 10th Amendment.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 07:02 PM

quote:
Here are a few ideas that I honestly would eliminate some problems:

1. NATIONAL Primaries Day - Hold ALL/EVERY state primary on the SAME FREAKIN' DAY! This way - everybody (including those of us who live in "red-headed stepchild" states) get the same opportunities to vote for the candidates that we want.

2. Eliminate the Electoral College - This archaic "institution" has more than once awarded the Presidency to the candidate who actually received the fewest votes. Sugar-coat this anyway you want, but this is a smoke and mirrors trick on the voters if there ever was one!

Best for last ...

3. The United STATE of America! - EVERY citizen has the EXACT SAME rights and privileges. What's legal there is legal here - same benefits for EVERY citizen.



I'm on board for all of these.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 07:19 PM

Would it be fair to place "Anti-vaxxers" in the same category as "Anti-Constitutionalists"?


2112 - 5/26/2020 at 09:03 PM

quote:
quote:
Here are a few ideas that I honestly would eliminate some problems:

1. NATIONAL Primaries Day - Hold ALL/EVERY state primary on the SAME FREAKIN' DAY! This way - everybody (including those of us who live in "red-headed stepchild" states) get the same opportunities to vote for the candidates that we want.

2. Eliminate the Electoral College - This archaic "institution" has more than once awarded the Presidency to the candidate who actually received the fewest votes. Sugar-coat this anyway you want, but this is a smoke and mirrors trick on the voters if there ever was one!

Best for last ...

3. The United STATE of America! - EVERY citizen has the EXACT SAME rights and privileges. What's legal there is legal here - same benefits for EVERY citizen.



I'm on board for all of these.


I'm on board with 1 and 2, but not 3. Priorities and problems are different in rural areas than in big cities. An example might be driving age in farming areas. It seems reasonable that a kid helping on a farm be allowed to drive a couple miles on rural roads, but do we need younger people driving in downtown New York City?

But the whole electoral college is outdated. The Republicans like to say that it's not fair that NY and California get greater representation, of course until it effects them (remember Trump's rant in 2012?), but the reverse is true. Why should a vote in Wyoming count more than a vote in California? I could see it if there were only a few rural states, but there are a bunch of rural states where few people live. They already get greater representation in the senate than they should be entitled to, and I get that. It was put in place to even the playing field when the country was founded. But now, it just seems like a lot of empty land gets a disproportionate amount of influence.


porkchopbob - 5/26/2020 at 09:23 PM

quote:
But the whole electoral college is outdated. The Republicans like to say that it's not fair that NY and California get greater representation, of course until it effects them (remember Trump's rant in 2012?), but the reverse is true. Why should a vote in Wyoming count more than a vote in California? I could see it if there were only a few rural states, but there are a bunch of rural states where few people live. They already get greater representation in the senate than they should be entitled to, and I get that. It was put in place to even the playing field when the country was founded. But now, it just seems like a lot of empty land gets a disproportionate amount of influence.


EXACTLY THIS! I'm fine with the Electoral College in theory - candidates winning states as opposed to popular vote. However, it only works if each person's vote is equally weighted, and currently they are not.

And agree regarding Primaries, put them on a single day. Most of the candidates had dropped out by the time my state's election date arrived. Other states had already decided the matter.

[Edited on 5/27/2020 by porkchopbob]


stormyrider - 5/27/2020 at 02:28 PM

Good idea
We might need several primary days when there are >3 candidates l


Rusty - 5/27/2020 at 03:34 PM

quote:
... And agree regarding Primaries, put them on a single day. Most of the candidates had dropped out by the time my state's election date arrived. Other states had already decided the matter.

[Edited on 5/27/2020 by porkchopbob]


Iowa - pop. 3million (slightly +), Rhode Island - pop. 1 million (slightly +) Vermont - pop. 646K (or so) - yet all of these states - states that would just about fit in my living room - essentially get to decide the slate for all other states. This should be cast by the wayside ASAP.


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