Thread: Opening Up America Again

nebish - 4/17/2020 at 12:06 AM

Plan unveiled, widely available online news outlets.

So what do we think?

I think it is pretty good.

Must overcome hurdle of 14 days declining trajectory of flu-like symptoms and coronavirus cases where hospitals are able to treat their patients without crisis care (does this mean not overwhelmed with extra capacity?), with testing and screening procedures before entering phase 1. Phase 1 has many of the things that most states are currently adhering to already. If there is no "rebound" and cases are still declining for 14 days, enter phase 2. No rebound with 14 days of declining cases, enter phase 3.

It sounds pretty responsible, I liked when Birx and Fauci explained it rather than Trump.

Some states have the talent and resources to develop their own guidelines, perhaps improving upon these. Some states may want to follow them as is. Governors and health professional in each state get to determine when and how they do this - exactly as it should be.

Some vague areas in the phase guidance, but this seems like a good way forward. The shortest timeframe out is 42 days if a state is ready to enter phase 1 today. If the hurdles haven't been met yet then is will be at least a 56 day process.

The most glaring issue is the fact that testing efficiency and availability is still pretty awful, that plays a key role in this.


nebish - 4/17/2020 at 12:09 AM

Here is one link with plan in pdf format.

https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/f70115f 7-a330-49d8-b0a9-ff6b3ce56ae1/note/8cb9b5df-b98d-4382-a7e8-9ca2fa6c9038.#pa ge=1


OriginalGoober - 4/17/2020 at 12:11 AM

I support this, and I also support Gov Cumo if he says that the timeline would compromise the safety of New Yorkers. I leave it to Cumo and his advisors if they say its too soon than its too soon. I dont care what Trump thinks should be done if he is outside of a hot zone. Leave it too the governors to manage their local hot zones.


nebish - 4/17/2020 at 12:18 AM

Dr Facui's comments on the plan:

My apologizes for the all caps, it is a C-Span copy and paste.

-edit - actually that looked awful and unreadable, let me see if I can find a normal version

-edit- I can't find a noncap version, even tried to change the format in word, but couldn't. Here is the link, Fauci starts talking at about the 35 minute mark where he describes this plan as a "natural evolution".

https://www.c-span.org/video/?471257-1/trump-administration-issues-guidelin es-reopen-economy&live=

[Edited on 4/17/2020 by nebish]


BIGV - 4/17/2020 at 12:24 AM

quote:
Some states have the talent and resources to develop their own guidelines, perhaps improving upon these. Some states may want to follow them as is. Governors and health professional in each state get to determine when and how they do this - exactly as it should be.


So, NO State to State travel at first?


nebish - 4/17/2020 at 12:32 AM

quote:
quote:
Some states have the talent and resources to develop their own guidelines, perhaps improving upon these. Some states may want to follow them as is. Governors and health professional in each state get to determine when and how they do this - exactly as it should be.


So, NO State to State travel at first?


State to state travel is not currently prohibited. It might be discouraged with a 2 week self quarantine request. Nothing here changes that. I think there would be some interstate commerce problems with prohibiting travel across state lines.


Chain - 4/17/2020 at 09:52 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Some states have the talent and resources to develop their own guidelines, perhaps improving upon these. Some states may want to follow them as is. Governors and health professional in each state get to determine when and how they do this - exactly as it should be.


So, NO State to State travel at first?


State to state travel is not currently prohibited. It might be discouraged with a 2 week self quarantine request. Nothing here changes that. I think there would be some interstate commerce problems with prohibiting travel across state lines.


Seems reasonable but as you said above, without enough testing, no plan to reopen will be a safe one.


alanwoods - 4/17/2020 at 12:32 PM

I live in a county that has had 1 new case in the last 6 days and 7 total active cases. It does border a county with 38 active cases. Our governor has extended the "safer at home" order until April 30. I think we could phase-in the easing of restrictions in the non-hotspot areas beginning pretty much immediately. I do realize that with increased mobility, the virus has an opportunity to put a hump in the curve, but you can't just flip a switch and say "tada!!" to restart things even now. It will take a lot longer to start it up than it did to shut it down.


LeglizHemp - 4/17/2020 at 02:16 PM

I won't feel safe until there is a vaccine.
I will continue to practice social distancing.
I will continue to have my groceries delivered. (Had never done before)
I will continue to do most of my shopping online.

That said, as soon as Australia opens its borders I'm heading back.


Rusty - 4/17/2020 at 02:35 PM

As I see it, there is one problem with this immediate plan. Americans.

In the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave - we tend to take things like social distance requirements personally - often as some sort of personal affront. Think of that scene in the Monty Python film (The Meaning of Life (I think)) where the Grim Reaper comes to call and is put off by the American's, "I'll have you know" attitude.

We either don't take this stuff seriously or we imagine that the dangers only apply to those who are less sophisticated than ourselves.

I've just returned from the grocery store. They've done a great job of urging customers to space out while shopping, but the cash register lines? Something about America? Whenever there's a line we tend to move forward to compress the line. This will make it move faster, right?

In a post in another thread, people argue that "concerts would be safe if the attendees would stay 7 feet apart." I laughed so hard reading that one that I may have to return to the grocery to see if they have any toilet paper! Y'all know for a fact that 2 minutes into the first song the audience would be jammed up against the stage. You DO know this, right?

Personally, I will not return to restaurants, bars or non-grocery shopping until I have seen a significant drop in new cases - at least in a 100 mile radius of my home. Y'all are free to pick your own poisons.

Peace.

RB


PhotoRon286 - 4/17/2020 at 02:40 PM

quote:
I support this, and I also support Gov Cumo if he says that the timeline would compromise the safety of New Yorkers. I leave it to Cumo and his advisors if they say its too soon than its too soon. I dont care what Trump thinks should be done if he is outside of a hot zone. Leave it too the governors to manage their local hot zones.


I agree with you.


stormyrider - 4/17/2020 at 03:47 PM

Looks like a good plan.
Unfortunately, not reality right now

I'm a physician in NH
Right now, we have enough PPE . We have this thanks to private donations and aggressive actions by our health system for purchasing and re sterilizing. Some local companies have also been very innovative in helping. We haven't gotten anything from the Feds. However 4 hospitals in our state have critical shortages of masks and gowns

There is clearly not enough testing. Until this week, testing was essentially only available to people who were sick enough to be hospitalized, or to health care or chronic care workers (for public health reasons). We have gotten some more kits and criteria for testing has been liberalized a bit, but not nearly enough.
The scary thing is that people are infectious before they have symptoms, and asymptomatic carriers may be infectious also. Without a vaccine, imo it won't be safe until we can test pretty much everyone on a regular basis and then trust them to self quarantine.

Hopefully, we will have enough testing (including serum testing) soon so we can all get on with life


nebish - 4/17/2020 at 04:41 PM

There just is not going to be testing on the scale that are going to make people 100% comfortable.

So then, do we wait...and how long will that take?

It will be interesting to see how the governors interpret the testing, screening and surveillance "gates" or hurdles before phase 1 can begin. I don't think by strict interpretation that many or any states would be able to pass that requirement would they?

Absent of that can we enter into phase 1, assuming flu-like symptoms and confirmed cases are on downward trajectory for 14 days?

I think it can be tried. A lot of this is going to come down to personal decisions and willingness to potentially be exposed and infected. You almost have to act like and assume that you could or would be infected any time you do something outside the home in a public type place. The gas station, anywhere. So I think with precautions, face masks, distancing, either gloves or hand sanitizer with frequent washing of hands - how many are willing to start to try and do things we haven't been able to do? It's going to depend on many variables that only individual people can answer. Should we be given that opportunity? It's up to our governors and their team of medical professionals and advisors that are looking at the data. There is danger and risk in being too protective and there is danger in risk in being too willing to open things up.

In the state I'm in, up to this point we have plenty of people going to work each day in essential business (which is somewhat open to interpretation). So either these workers, or their employers have already accepted the risk they are putting themselves at to service us and/or fulfill their duties for society - as have the customers and other commercial businesses that supply and interact with them. Acceptable risk decisions have already been made. Soon, based off the data, it will be time for the governors to decide how and when to expand that acceptable risk with relaxed restrictions and then everyone else will have to decide what they want.

I think the biggest thing that needs to be weighed in whatever the governors or us as individuals decide is what risk are we placing upon the health care system. The facilities, the equipment and the stress on the personnel that serve and help the sick. If county and regional and state hospitals and medical providers have the free capacity and supplies, then we can proceed with caution. When or if, infections get to the point where the system is going to be stressed, we should pause.

There are going to be new infections as we go through this. Fauci has said as much. If we can manage it properly, is this acceptable risk tolerable? There just isn't going to be the testing necessary in the short term. So if we wait solely for that we might be waiting a long time still.


stormyrider - 4/17/2020 at 05:51 PM

the new data on remdesivir, if it pans out, has the potential to change things


Chain - 4/17/2020 at 09:24 PM

I think Cuomo explained the testing dilemma pretty well in today's press conference.....The states simply haven't the ability to scale this requirement up enough to even make a dent in the required numbers needed.

His call to action by the federal government and Trump was met with the usually stupidity from Caligula in Chief....Maybe it's better that dear leader spends most of his time not actually doing anything but watching Faux news and texting. Less for him to f*ck up that way.

That's probably how his henchman handle him...Just give him his cell phone and place him in a room with a television and a McDonald's lunch.


stormyrider - 4/18/2020 at 01:37 AM

This afternoon's news- Covid rapidly becoming #1 killer in US

It is claimed we need 2-3x the testing capacity

ID LOVE For the country to be open for so many reasons
I’m concerned about people ill with things that have nothing to do with this virus not getting the health care they need, in addition to the obvious financial concerns
I just don’t think most of the country is close to getting there


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 11:55 AM

Great News! As part of opening up America again, some beaches have reopened in Florida - up here, Gov Scott said employees w/little contact w/others, like construction etc can return to work next week

Radio reported a festive scene at the beaches, w/people running, fishing, swimming, cycling, beach combing in a welcome return to normal -
outdoors & fresh air is the way to say goodby to the pandemic & that was just the atmosphere at the beaches, where there was no hint of virus worry, people interviewed on the radio said

People have cabin fever, they’re itching to get outdoors just like every spring - this fever is the right antidote & must be accommodated - ‘social distancing’ can be too

The economic devastation continues tho - three colleges in the Vt state system are set to consolidate next year, closing two of the campuses, in Lyndon and Johnson

Lyndon has basically been closed this spring, like many others - its campus is high on a hill w/spectacular views, dynamite riding trails etc - it’s major bad news, just as the closure of the ski areas & everything else has been - it’s been chilly & the ski conditions would have been sweet - what will become of those campuses, heaven only knows

Good wknd, all the best



[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Stephen]


Rusty - 4/18/2020 at 12:09 PM

Oh yeah - flocking to the beaches for some fun and sun and volleyball and stuff sounds great! Unless you live in a coastal resort area like I do. We were Corona-free until the Spring Break a few weeks ago. We had a couple of cases pop up immediately after - then the exponential build-up that often follows pandemic outbreak ensued.

So, hell yeah! Send us your bored and infected. By the end of summer we'll know just how good an idea this was.


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 01:39 PM

And yet, I’d bet most merchants & business community were glad to greet the kids on spring break & get it in under the wire - a win-win-lose this year, kids partied, local economy got its annual boost - & the coronavirus appeared also

Many happy stoked concert goers attended a show at MSG a short 5 weeks ago - also just b4 the pandemic began - hopefully the vibe of the awesome smoking show isn’t replaced by the worrisome possibility of having contracted what was at the time an active virus

Am Not Downplaying It - the stats are there, hundreds of thousands dead worldwide, tens of thousands in this country - but the desire for a return to normal is understandable too



[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Stephen]


nebish - 4/18/2020 at 02:46 PM

I'm hearing and reading A LOT of premature openings and planned openings.

Ohio has done a good job, we have really flattened the curve. They estimate we are now, currently, in the peak plateau time. Dewine says he plans to relax some restrictions May 1st. But we haven't experienced a 14 day trajectory of declining numbers yet. Maybe by May 1st we will be on that path, but it is hard to see it now. Same with other states that have yet to peak or are in their peak, with no evidence of declining cases a bunch of these states are already jumping to phase one.

So these governors can do what they want to unwind this, just as they could on the front side to mitigate. To me, it seems like there is a pretty decent federal guidance plan, I think the "gates" or the hurdles before you can get to phase 1 were key for health professionals like Fauci to get onboard, but it is like that is being ignored already.


Chain - 4/18/2020 at 02:50 PM

quote:
I'm hearing and reading A LOT of premature openings and planned openings.

Ohio has done a good job, we have really flattened the curve. They estimate we are now, currently, in the peak plateau time. Dewine says he plans to relax some restrictions May 1st. But we haven't experienced a 14 day trajectory of declining numbers yet. Maybe by May 1st we will be on that path, but it is hard to see it now. Same with other states that have yet to peak or are in their peak, with no evidence of declining cases a bunch of these states are already jumping to phase one.

So these governors can do what they want to unwind this, just as they could on the front side to mitigate. To me, it seems like there is a pretty decent federal guidance plan, I think the "gates" or the hurdles before you can get to phase 1 were key for health professionals like Fauci to get onboard, but it is like that is being ignored already.


It is being ignored....Which is not surprising given the President sends mixed messages every 5 minutes and contradicts everything that comes out of his mouth.


stormyrider - 4/18/2020 at 02:58 PM

Yep
It’s one thing if people were putting only themselves at risk. That’s their decision. But, if someone goes out, parties, gets infected, that person will likely infect some other innocent person (or people) in the next few days before he even knows he’s infected, putting innocent people at risk. And then someone will go to the hospital and put nurses and doctors at risk.
If I ski without a helmet and get a concussion, that’s all on me. This is different. One person infects other people, and lives are lost.
I hate this now- I do. But it’s too early to relax. Social distancing works.

[Edited on 4/18/2020 by stormyrider]


nebish - 4/18/2020 at 03:02 PM

I really really want some additional economic activity. I want to push for it. But I also see waiting for cases declining as being very prudent. It's a way to justify, a way to explain what is happening and why and what is not happening and why. I'm anxious too, but I understand this. Cases declining is a key metric.

Lots of protests now. Ohio has had protests outside the capital for 2 weeks now.


nebish - 4/18/2020 at 03:41 PM

Without trying to look at every state's graph, I found this which cites the IHME model for projecting 4 states having the ability to relax their orders. Even though they had a rather controversial projection of no covid-19 deaths after June, otherwise, I have found following data and projections from their model to be better than the rest.

quote:
At least four states may be able to loosen social distancing measures next month, an influential model tracking the coronavirus pandemic says.

The model's new projections show that Vermont, West Virginia, Montana and Hawaii could open as early as May 4.

While most states could open mid-to-late May, some states including Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Utah, Arkansas and Oklahoma may need to wait until late June or early July.

Dr. Christopher Murray, the model's maker and director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, said some of those states should not relax social distancing because the outbreak is still "unfolding."

"You gotta wait until the level of cases in the community is at a manageable level," he said.
Murray said the challenge will be figuring out how to reopen the US economy and allowing people to get back to work without sacrificing mitigation.

"Each state is different," Murray said. "Each state has a different public health system, and different capabilities. This is not a 'one decision fits all' situation."

The model is now estimating a total of 60,308 deaths in the US by August 4. That's about 8,500 fewer deaths than predicted on Monday.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/17/health/us-coronavirus-friday/index.html



BIGV - 4/18/2020 at 05:32 PM

quote:
So, hell yeah! Send us your bored and infected.


We should just send them all to California where they can be rewarded for their behavior just like the Illegal Aliens there who are receiving financial support on the Taxpayer's back.


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 05:39 PM

Yeah beaches reopening, ski areas/college campuses closing, cabin fever, getting outdoors, ecomic devastation....
Translated by/from the BS detector of skydog32103 to be, “veiled swipes at Democrats”
Party on bro & don’t overdo it

[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Stephen]


tbomike - 4/18/2020 at 05:52 PM

I am a Democrat who fully supports the reopening of this country and I sick to death of everyone on my side of the aisle thinking we are all in group think.


Jerry - 4/18/2020 at 05:57 PM

quote:
quote:
Great News! As part of opening up America again, some beaches have reopened in Florida - up here, Gov Scott said employees w/little contact w/others, like construction etc can return to work next week

Radio reported a festive scene at the beaches, w/people running, fishing, swimming, cycling, beach combing in a welcome return to normal -
outdoors & fresh air is the way to say goodby to the pandemic & that was just the atmosphere at the beaches, where there was no hint of virus worry, people interviewed on the radio said

People have cabin fever, they’re itching to get outdoors just like every spring - this fever is the right antidote & must be accommodated - ‘social distancing’ can be too

The economic devastation continues tho - three colleges in the Vt state system are set to consolidate next year, closing two of the campuses, in Lyndon and Johnson

Lyndon has basically been closed this spring, like many others - its campus is high on a hill w/spectacular views, dynamite riding trails etc - it’s major bad news, just as the closure of the ski areas & everything else has been - it’s been chilly & the ski conditions would have been sweet - what will become of those campuses, heaven only knows

Good wknd, all the best


I find this to be incredibly irresponsible, selfish, juvenile, and reckless. Your disingenuous veiled swipes at Democrats are sad to watch....why do you hide your contempt?



[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Skydog32103]


What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


BIGV - 4/18/2020 at 06:00 PM

quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Jerry - 4/18/2020 at 06:05 PM

quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Yeah. That's probably what we'll get, or a unveiled attack on the questioner.


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 06:15 PM

He must’ve meant when I was reckless selfish juvenile or all of the above

To clarify, the chancellor of the state college system Recommended the closure of those two campuses - the VSCS will consider the recommendation on Monday


tbomike - 4/18/2020 at 06:15 PM

quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Catch this yet? Awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ&feature=youtu.be


BIGV - 4/18/2020 at 06:30 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Catch this yet? Awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ&feature=youtu.be




Spot on and directly to the point!


nebish - 4/18/2020 at 07:25 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Catch this yet? Awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ&feature=youtu.be




Very good, thanks.


gina - 4/18/2020 at 09:57 PM

Florida opened Jacksonville Beach for 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours later. It is too soon to safely open Florida. June 1st is when Florida could safely ease restrictions. Doing it sooner can cause a surge in cases.

For Georgia the safe time is June 15.

For Louisiana May 18.

For NY it is June 1.

For Rhode Island June 8th.

For Vermont May 4th.

For California May 18th.

For Illinois May 25th.

For Washington DC June 8th.

South Dakota June 22.

Https://covid19.healthdata.org

Scroll down find your state.

If you do not believe it look at the real time day to day numbers for your state.

Https://theguardian.com

Here we have 10,000 + new cases each day. Another week or two we will have a quarter of a million cases identified.


Jerry - 4/18/2020 at 10:06 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Catch this yet? Awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ&feature=youtu.be




Sic 'em Bill.

Typical news show at 6:30 pm.

Lead off with deaths of victims.
Show empty streets and stores.
Show empty stadiums.
Show graph of stock market decline.
Have 10 minutes of news on other subjects.
Show empty school, with sideline of no graduation exercise for the seniors.
Show unemployment numbers (make sure you use the "possibly up to" phrase).
Talk about shortages of food and supplies at grocery stores (obligatory photo of empty paper aisle).
Close out with video of mass burials of unclaimed bodies (leave out figures of just how many died of Covid-19)
Remind viewers "We're all in this together."

Then comes on Family Feud, Jeopardy, Wheel of Fortune, or a local show about the Pandemic.


tbomike - 4/18/2020 at 10:20 PM

The commercials by companies wanting us not to use their products are driving me nuts.


Jerry - 4/18/2020 at 10:23 PM

quote:
The commercials by companies wanting us not to use their products are driving me nuts.


I keep asking the tv, "How does the pizza get cut if it goes from oven to box to me?"

Also, how do you "triple churn" palm kernel oil ?


piacere - 4/18/2020 at 10:53 PM

Come on 32103, Stephen? Stephen doesn't have a disingenuous bone in his body.


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 11:33 PM

quote:
i'm not one to hide. he's posted something along the lines before of "i know i'll have tomatoes thrown at me for this, but....", or "....attack away at me for saying this, but....", playing the victim in advance! Stephen likes to take passive aggressive swipes at the left - the horrors happening in liberal Vermont, while congrats to red Florida for being imbeciles! Just state your point without the theatrics.


Straight comedy - wasn’t thinking about the right or left, liberal or conservative in mentioning beach reopenings/ski area closures etc -

re playing the victim/posting w/a lot of theatrics etc - same thing (was laughing)
your posts are from the galactic beyond bro - maybe amping up, not easing back on whatever you’re taking will get you more grounded/connected......?

Am not hiding anything or posting w/some subliminal ulterior motive/meaning in mind


stormyrider - 4/18/2020 at 11:43 PM

I thought we were having a good discussion for a while
There was some disagreement but it was ok, non toxic

Oh well


Stephen - 4/19/2020 at 12:50 AM

Don’t want any tomatoes thrown at me
Know I’ll be attacked for this

But toxic the last few posts are not - funny as heck they are! - esp at 11:26 am, 12:39, & 6 pm
Also disingenuous, oh wait.....

[Edited on 4/19/2020 by Stephen]


Jerry - 4/19/2020 at 01:43 AM




I find this to be incredibly irresponsible, selfish, juvenile, and reckless. Your disingenuous veiled swipes at Democrats are sad to watch....why do you hide your contempt?
[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Skydog32103]


do you think these guys are selfish, irresponsible,juvenile, and reckless?
foxnews.com/lifestyle/ny-nj-connecticut-reopening-marinas-coronavirus


nebish - 4/19/2020 at 01:52 AM



Vermont does have the appearance of a good 7-day average.

quote:

First businesses allowed to reopen

Scott’s pledge to deliver relief to the newly unemployed came as he made the first step Friday toward reopening the Vermont economy.

Scott said he’s lifting his business-closure order, effective April 20, for one- to two-person crews in “construction or similar trades,” so long as those workers maintain six feet of distance and wear cloth masks. He said he’s also lifting the closure order for “low- or no-contact professional services,” including appraisers, realtors and attorneys.

Scott is also allowing farmers markets to open, beginning May 1. He said the Agency of Agriculture is in the process of drafting operational regulations for markets that choose to open.

“I don’t want to give the false impression that this is going to be the traditional farmers market where people come and gather and it’s an event,” Scott said. “This isn’t an event. This will be to get your goods and move along.”

Case growth rate slows

Scott said the decision to slowly “open the spigot” on the Vermont economy is driven by new modeling projections that suggest Vermont has turned the corner on new coronavirus cases.

The governor said the daily growth rate in new cases has averaged less than 4% over the past 12 days, and Commissioner of Financial Regulation Michael Pieciak said the seven-day average rate fell from 9% last week to 2% this week.

“It is now safe to assume that we have reached our peak for new confirmed cases in Vermont,” Pieciak said.

Pieciak warned, however, that despite the decline in new cases, “the virus is considerably more pervasive in Vermont than it was at any other point during the pandemic.”

“And relaxing our social distancing measures too quickly, or not continuing our collective good work of following those guidelines and following the hygiene guidelines, has the potential to quickly jolt us back toward a much more severe scenario,” Pieciak said.

Scott said that specter of another spike in COVID-19 cases will loom over Vermont’s economy “for the foreseeable future.” And he said Vermonters shouldn’t expect a return to the status quo until scientists develop a vaccine for the new coronavirus.

“Because the reality is, until we do have the vaccine, we’re still going to have this virus among us,” Scott said.

https://www.vpr.org/post/scott-promises-relief-jobless-vermonters-snagged-u nemployment-backlog#stream/0








nebish - 4/19/2020 at 01:55 AM



Texas does not yet appear ready by that graph, yet is moving forward with loosening restrictions and allowing some business activity and outpatient surgeries to begin.

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/17/texas-reopening-greg-abbott-coronav irus/


nebish - 4/19/2020 at 02:02 AM



The President said that Montana will start to lift restrictions Friday, Montana Gov says plan not finalized.

https://www.ktvq.com/news/coronavirus/trump-announces-montana-will-lift-res trictions-friday-bullock-says-plan-not-finalized


nebish - 4/19/2020 at 02:08 AM







Trump also listed Idaho, North Dakota and Ohio as making plans for a phased reopening May 1st...Idaho might be close. North Dakota and Ohio appear to need more time. May 1st might reveal that, but unsure how they can predict that looking at the current data on case count alone.


piacere - 4/19/2020 at 11:59 AM

It's good that a few states are opening, as much as I completely disagree with it. Let them be the nation's petri dish. Nice weather coming combined with people getting beyond impatient and low on deneros, not to mention their constitutional right to infect my ass makes for turbulent times indeed.
Have at it, just stay out of RI. Thanks.


alanwoods - 4/19/2020 at 12:15 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Great News! As part of opening up America again, some beaches have reopened in Florida - up here, Gov Scott said employees w/little contact w/others, like construction etc can return to work next week

Radio reported a festive scene at the beaches, w/people running, fishing, swimming, cycling, beach combing in a welcome return to normal -
outdoors & fresh air is the way to say goodby to the pandemic & that was just the atmosphere at the beaches, where there was no hint of virus worry, people interviewed on the radio said

People have cabin fever, they’re itching to get outdoors just like every spring - this fever is the right antidote & must be accommodated - ‘social distancing’ can be too

The economic devastation continues tho - three colleges in the Vt state system are set to consolidate next year, closing two of the campuses, in Lyndon and Johnson

Lyndon has basically been closed this spring, like many others - its campus is high on a hill w/spectacular views, dynamite riding trails etc - it’s major bad news, just as the closure of the ski areas & everything else has been - it’s been chilly & the ski conditions would have been sweet - what will become of those campuses, heaven only knows

Good wknd, all the best


I find this to be incredibly irresponsible, selfish, juvenile, and reckless. Your disingenuous veiled swipes at Democrats are sad to watch....why do you hide your contempt?



[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Skydog32103]


What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


Otie getting a tad sensitive. I think Vegas is basically shuttered.


Bhawk - 4/19/2020 at 03:25 PM

quote:
This afternoon's news- Covid rapidly becoming #1 killer in US

It is claimed we need 2-3x the testing capacity

ID LOVE For the country to be open for so many reasons
I’m concerned about people ill with things that have nothing to do with this virus not getting the health care they need, in addition to the obvious financial concerns
I just don’t think most of the country is close to getting there


Need more swabs and reagents!


Bhawk - 4/19/2020 at 03:47 PM

There is the question of when to "re-open" things, but maybe a deeper question is, how many will actually rejoin? It's not like everyone is going to charge right back in and the economy will be magically restored in 24 hours.

This experience has changed and challenged quite a few things long considered as normal. From online shopping (is this what finally kills off big box retail?) to working at home (is the M-F 8-5 paradigm in danger?), the adaptive nature of people forces change in all kinds of ways.

I've had several conversations with others in healthcare supply chain and we can't help but wonder if the just-in-time purchasing/distribution model is pure folly and left us on a large scale woefully under-prepared by getting so far away from stockpiling.

3M has a virtual international monopoly on premium masks as well as PAPR systems and hoods. Never knew just how dominant they are until the last six weeks...is that a good thing?

I get the political back and forth and I do get the nationalism (although I don't always understand it in the rational sense...it's a virus, it doesn't care where you were born). Until there's a vaccine, we will likely be spending the next year playing hotspot whack-a-mole. Everyone isn't going to stay home, anyway.


cyclone88 - 4/19/2020 at 04:42 PM

quote:
There is the question of when to "re-open" things, but maybe a deeper question is, how many will actually rejoin? It's not like everyone is going to charge right back in and the economy will be magically restored in 24 hours.

This experience has changed and challenged quite a few things long considered as normal. From online shopping (is this what finally kills off big box retail?) to working at home (is the M-F 8-5 paradigm in danger?), the adaptive nature of people forces change in all kinds of ways.


Agreed. This experience has accelerated trends that were already in the works - the death of brick/mortar retail, traditional work hours that were already moving toward work/life integration, & a shift toward tele-medicine.

Will everyone re-join? Workers w/a choice will exercise that choice if there is some workable solution re antibody tests, vaccines, & treatments. The workers who don't have a choice are going to continue to do what they're doing. The income/economic class gap widens.

Not everyone is eager to socialize under the new normal. Are people going to dash off to restaurants where they have to have their temperature taken before entering, limited to parties of 4, served by waiters in full PPE, & choose food from disposable menus? What's the restaurant owner to do if patrons don't comply w/new protective regulations? What about movie theatres? concert halls? sports? Although they're entertainment, they're businesses & no one is in business to lose money.

Trump seems to be acting under the assumption that a switch will flip & everything will be "normal." I don't think he's right.


nebish - 4/19/2020 at 08:54 PM

quote:
There is the question of when to "re-open" things, but maybe a deeper question is, how many will actually rejoin? It's not like everyone is going to charge right back in and the economy will be magically restored in 24 hours.

This experience has changed and challenged quite a few things long considered as normal. From online shopping (is this what finally kills off big box retail?) to working at home (is the M-F 8-5 paradigm in danger?), the adaptive nature of people forces change in all kinds of ways.

I've had several conversations with others in healthcare supply chain and we can't help but wonder if the just-in-time purchasing/distribution model is pure folly and left us on a large scale woefully under-prepared by getting so far away from stockpiling.

3M has a virtual international monopoly on premium masks as well as PAPR systems and hoods. Never knew just how dominant they are until the last six weeks...is that a good thing?

I get the political back and forth and I do get the nationalism (although I don't always understand it in the rational sense...it's a virus, it doesn't care where you were born). Until there's a vaccine, we will likely be spending the next year playing hotspot whack-a-mole. Everyone isn't going to stay home, anyway.


From the hip, 50% might come back. I think recreation has a chance to return with the economic benefits that come with that. Hiking gear, rafting stuff, ATVs, fishing. Traveling by car has a chance to come back. But many other areas are going to be damaged, some perhaps irreparably so.

Just in time delivery has definitely hampered availability of things we need.

There are going to be flare ups.

Most of us have done a good job listening to the advice. We’ve come a long way and flattened the curve. We need to stick it out a little longer. Let supplies build up, let cases go down. Then we need to be careful, smart and incremental.


PhotoRon286 - 4/19/2020 at 09:04 PM

My youngest son is an EMT in NY with AMR.

He just told me he's heading to work in NYC for two weeks, probably leaving Friday or Sunday.

I thought my sleepless nights ended when my daughter came home from the Army.


BIGV - 4/19/2020 at 11:09 PM

quote:
Not everyone is eager to socialize under the new normal.


"The new normal"

How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?

Not presumptive, no theories.....


PhotoRon286 - 4/20/2020 at 12:18 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
My youngest son is an EMT in NY with AMR.

He just told me he's heading to work in NYC for two weeks, probably leaving Friday or Sunday.

I thought my sleepless nights ended when my daughter came home from the Army.


That is scary. A parent's worries are never over. Brave good kids you got there.


I'm proud of him but scared as all hell about this.

He'd been off three weeks waiting on test results after transporting numerous covid patients in Syracuse.

He's feeling fine, likely it was sinus issues and work related exhaustion.

Not looking forward to the next month.

His sister survived a roadside bomb in Baghdad.

She had armor on her humvee, he's got nothing but cloth and soap.


cyclone88 - 4/20/2020 at 02:11 PM

quote:
"The new normal"How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?

I used CA Gov. Gavin Newsom's description of what restaurants will look like in my post. Almost any description of what businesses/workplaces will look like start w/taking the temperature of anyone who enters - worker or customer - until accurate antibody tests are available to everyone. So far, one hasn't even been developed.

We're living the new normal now in essential businesses that are open - workers (everyone from pharmacists to stockers) wearing masks, customers wearing masks, tape or painted markers at 6 foot intervals in check-out lines and in store aisles to remind customers to stand apart from each other, employees wearing disposable gloves, greeters stationed at the entrance wiping off the handle of a shopping cart w/a disinfectant wipe before allowing a customer to use it, & a refusal to accept cash.

Traditional campus-based colleges (e.g., BU) are planning to continue online-only classes for summer & fall semesters. Some state universities w/multiple campuses have announced plans to consolidate at the main campus & close satellite campuses.

Movie studio executives are in negotiations to forego theatrical releases for what would've been summer/Christmas blockbusters in favor of streaming services. Film festivals where movies garner prestigious awards & industry buzz that heightens earnings are being cancelled. Future production is halted while negotiations for financing w/o theatrical distribution are made. The Oscars organization is considering combing the Academy Awards for 2020 & 2021. The trade associations for movie distribution are forecasting grim financial projections much as brick/mortar retailers are shuttering stores in favor of online only sales & are addressing the issues of taking the temperature of every movie-goer prior to admission, disinfecting theatres after every show which would require staggering screenings, cordoning off seating in 6 foot intervals, eliminating concessions, & hiring security to enforce seating policies.

I get my examples from major newspapers & trade publications. The business sections of major newspapers regularly publish articles w/industry executives as to how their businesses would change when re-opening while there is no antibody testing, vaccine, or treatment for COVID-19.




nebish - 4/20/2020 at 03:35 PM

“we are weeks if not months away from having sufficient test capacity.”

Former CDC director Tom Friedman.

He also says if we were only testing the highest priority people we would need 3x more tests. We currently are at 150,000 per day a little over a million a week. If we try to test really extensively it would be 10-20x that.

With people making those statements, my question becomes, what is possible? I’d like to know, let’s just say we lived in fantasy land and everyone approved of our federal governments response and actions. Can somebody actually say that we can get to 10-20 million tests per week? And when could we even be at that point? Summer? Fall? 2021? What kind of country are we going to have by then?

It’s one thing to say what we need to be doing from people not responsible for actually doing it. It’s another thing to explain how the shortage of supplies and components gets where it needs to be in order to conduct 40-80 million tests per month. We test 4 million currently.

I’m sure the next great test and break through is right around the corner. But how long can we wait around for it? Indefinitely? And indefinite government rescue programs. Sounds like indefinite depression.

Let’s see where states case count, or better ratio positive/negative results go. If they are coming down over a 1-2 week period of time, we need to prepare for phase 1.


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 03:38 PM

quote:
quote:
"The new normal "How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?


================

quote:
"until accurate antibody tests are available to everyone"


California is nuts, absolutely nuts and the keyword here is "until" making this temporary.

quote:
a refusal to accept cash.


Have not witnessed this

quote:
Traditional campus-based colleges (e.g., BU) are planning to continue online-only classes for summer & fall semesters.


"Planning to continue"..temporary

quote:
Movie studio executives are in negotiations to forego theatrical releases for what would've been summer/Christmas blockbusters in favor of streaming services. Film festivals where movies garner prestigious awards & industry buzz that heightens earnings are being cancelled. Future production is halted while negotiations for financing w/o theatrical distribution are made. The Oscars organization is considering combing the Academy Awards for 2020 & 2021. The trade associations for movie distribution are forecasting grim financial projections much as brick/mortar retailers are shuttering stores in favor of online only sales & are addressing the issues of taking the temperature of every movie-goer prior to admission, disinfecting theatres after every show which would require staggering screenings, cordoning off seating in 6 foot intervals, eliminating concessions, & hiring security to enforce seating policies.


if your vision of a "new normal" means Hollywood and its "influence" might be going away or diminishing, I could not be happier about that.

quote:
while there is no antibody testing, vaccine, or treatment for COVID-19.


Once again, it appears you are describing temporary scenarios that in no way insinuate permanent change.

"While covid19 is rampant, I have been asked to stay at home..."Is this the new normal"?

Or a temporary fix?


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 03:44 PM

quote:
“we are weeks if not months away from having sufficient test capacity.”

Former CDC director Tom Friedman.

He also says if we were only testing the highest priority people we would need 3x more tests. We currently are at 150,000 per day a little over a million a week. If we try to test really extensively it would be 10-20x that.

With people making those statements, my question becomes, what is possible? I’d like to know, let’s just say we lived in fantasy land and everyone approved of our federal governments response and actions. Can somebody actually say that we can get to 10-20 million tests per week? And when could we even be at that point? Summer? Fall? 2021? What kind of country are we going to have by then?

It’s one thing to say what we need to be doing from people not responsible for actually doing it. It’s another thing to explain how the shortage of supplies and components gets where it needs to be in order to conduct 40-80 million tests per month. We test 4 million currently.

I’m sure the next great test and break through is right around the corner. But how long can we wait around for it? Indefinitely? And indefinite government rescue programs. Sounds like indefinite depression.

Let’s see where states case count, or better ratio positive/negative results go. If they are coming down over a 1-2 week period of time, we need to prepare for phase 1.


I have to add that the whole country and its need to get back to living & business and their readiness to best judge when that should happen, should not and can NEVER be based solely on what is happening in New York or any other huge American city.


Rusty - 4/20/2020 at 04:40 PM

Okay, I am very rarely correct about anything. Ask my wife.

Back in January ... I was offering my $.02 to anybody who was willing to listen. Most were not. Probably due to my rarely being correct. What I advised then was - close up the shops, bars and restaurants - sacrifice (forfeit) the Spring Break business and possibly recover the much larger Summer business. This advice flew like a $hit balloon. Nobody saw any sense in my idea.

So now - a whole lotta people who are likely a whole lot smarter than me want to hurry up and reopen these establishments. Ready or not.

Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.


cyclone88 - 4/20/2020 at 05:16 PM

quote:
Once again, it appears you are describing temporary scenarios that in no way insinuate permanent change.
"While covid19 is rampant, I have been asked to stay at home..."Is this the new normal"? Or a temporary fix?

We are not in a temporary fix. We are in a stop-the-spread period in a pandemic.

May 1 is when re-opening is supposed to start to happen. No antibody test, vaccination, or treatment planned to roll out by then. Estimates for those are anywhere from 2 months to 2 years or beyond. There's no guarantee that anything will be identified, approved, & made widely available so re-opening guidelines are all based on anyone can transmit the COVID19 virus to others.

We live in the present. Even w/stimulus packages & other aid, there are businesses & industries that will close because they simply can't hang on until the fix arrives. There are certain businesses where tele-working will replace life in the cubicle. We will not return to life as it was in summer 2019. We'll return to some new iteration.

You asked for examples. I gave examples of what industry leaders - some of whom are informal advisers to Trump on re-opening - are saying. Can't do more than that.


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 05:31 PM

quote:
quote:
Once again, it appears you are describing temporary scenarios that in no way insinuate permanent change.
"While covid19 is rampant, I have been asked to stay at home..."Is this the new normal"? Or a temporary fix?

We are not in a temporary fix. We are in a stop-the-spread period in a pandemic.


And when the spread is stopped and the virus contained?

quote:
You asked for examples. I gave examples


Thanks and I disagree with your conclusions


nebish - 4/20/2020 at 05:39 PM

You did provide good examples cyclone.

And BigV, I agree, there is no one-size fits all approach. A lot of people think there should be and a lot of others think there should not be. So what are we going to do? I am thankful that the mayors and governors close to their constituents are responsible for the decisions. Some might make good decisions and some might make bad decisions, but this is what we have. NY and NYC will do what is right for them and they will reap the benefit or sacrifice of that, as will other states.

And to Rusty's point, I just think we need a little more time. I don't want to appear like I'm on both sides of this. We need some economic activity, we need some mental relief to be able to get out and do stuff. But we have come this far. By and large, state to state, cases are not going down yet, or down enough or sustained trajectory. A little more time hopefully will get us further away from the hump and then we'll have to see how it goes. We can look to Europe and other places for examples as they go through this. We already saw some places in Asia try. These places were ahead of us with their infection, so they should try their relaxing and reopening before we do. And let's learn from what happens there, dos and don'ts.

I think we are on the cusp of trying this, but some people are pushing it too soon. And the President feeds it. The President should say and do a lot of things he doesn't. But on this, we have a 30 days to stop the spread that his administration put forth. OK. And his administration put forth opening guidelines. OK. I actually think the opening guidelines are pretty responsible, clearly some smart people inputted greatly on it. It might actually make it impossible to get through the gates, technically with the testing open to interpretation, but that is the map for states to try and follow. It was well done. Some states will have their own ideas. But the President is undermining everything. The 30 days to stop the spread runs until April 30th. He should say, we need to stay the course, we are winning, it's not over. Stick it out a little longer and when your states feel they can meet the criteria of relaxing restrictions, we will do so slowly and smartly, but if the 30 days to slow the spread is still in place, don't tell people to start opening now. He encouraging people to "free" themselves now, still with over a week to go in his own plan to slow the spread. He's a joke and he is making things worse right now. We have to start to try and relax the restrictions, but you have to follow some kind of plan and data as to when to do that...and some people aren't with these protests at the encouragement of the President.


[Edited on 4/20/2020 by nebish]


cyclone88 - 4/20/2020 at 05:45 PM

quote:
Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.

Agree w/you, but not to give the virus a little more time. Time is needed for the scientific/medical community to invent antibody testing, a vaccine, & treatments. If businesses are re-opened immediately w/o those things & everyone rushes out to that re-opening, we'll be right back where we were.


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 05:50 PM

quote:
quote:
Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.

Agree w/you, but not to give the virus a little more time. Time is needed for the scientific/medical community to invent antibody testing, a vaccine, & treatments. If businesses are re-opened immediately w/o those things & everyone rushes out to that re-opening, we'll be right back where we were.


quote:
I agree, there is no one-size fits all approach


Agreed, there is not. But I for one am growing weary of the newscasts making NYC the headquarters of this extremely difficult time for everyone in this country. Governor Cuomo, does not speak for this nation, he has the interests of the people of New York at stake, period. Perhaps N.Y. should seal off its borders while the rest of the Country figures out what is the best way to get up and moving again.


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 06:02 PM

quote:
As falls New York, so falls the USA


If you live in NYC, I understand how you might choose to believe that.


Brendan - 4/20/2020 at 06:18 PM

I have not heard Andrew Cuomo presume to speak for anyone other than NY or dictate what anyone outside of NY does.

NYC gets a lot of coverage because, well it’s NYC. NY also has the most cases and deaths. That’s going to make the news.

Cuomo gets a lot of coverage because he’s been widely lauded for providing very transparent, timely, fact-based updates on the situation in NY in general.

You can always change the channel...


cyclone88 - 4/20/2020 at 06:22 PM

quote:
You did provide good examples cyclone.

I think we are on the cusp of trying this, but some people are pushing it too soon. And the President feeds it. The President should say and do a lot of things he doesn't. But on this, we have a 30 days to stop the spread that his administration put forth. OK. And his administration put forth opening guidelines. OK. I actually think the opening guidelines are pretty responsible, clearly some smart people inputted greatly on it. It might actually make it impossible to get through the gates, technically with the testing open to interpretation, but that is the map for states to try and follow. It was well done. Some states will have their own ideas.

But the President is undermining everything. The 30 days to stop the spread runs until April 30th. He should say, we need to stay the course, we are winning, it's not over. Stick it out a little longer and when your states feel they can meet the criteria of relaxing restrictions, we will do so slowly and smartly, but if the 30 days to slow the spread is still in place, don't tell people to start opening now. He encouraging people to "free" themselves now, still with over a week to go in his own plan to slow the spread. He's a joke and he is making things worse right now. We have to start to try and relax the restrictions, but you have to follow some kind of plan and data as to when to do that...and some people aren't with these protests at the encouragement of the President.

The examples aren't mine. I just repeated what business/industry leaders are saying about re-opening when there's no prevention or cure in sight.

I agree w/you. From what I've read, we've learned 3 things about COVID-19 since it arrived: 1) it affects people of all ages so everyone is vulnerable, 2) people can have the virus more than once, & 3) people can transmit the virus before they have symptoms. None of that sounds like we should rush to re-open w/o precautions.

We do have other countries ahead of us & we are learning what does/doesn't work from them.

There's no one size fits all re-open. A good leader would say everything you suggested. I've been saying for weeks that the prez's daily briefings shouldn't be televised in full because he lies, touts unproven cures, & mocks governors who are proceding at the pace models in their states show. He contradicts himself, takes valuable time from Drs. Fauci & Birx & even Pence to correct him, & generally confuses people. Journalism isn't just turning the camera on; journalism is filming, editing, & conveying information the public needs to know. Televise the experts not the political bluster.

One of the ironic things about his LIBERATE VIRGINIA! tweet is that Virginia is under an order through June 10 - probably one of the longest in the country - in part because its northern cities are DC commuting suburbs. More importantly, the governor is a PHYSICIAN who has repeatedly said that science not politics will dictate when/how to re-open. Granted, the governor is a Democrat, but he's also someone who knows more about medicine & science than Trump. Ergo, the stable genius must belittle him.


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 02:15 AM

quote:
One of the ironic things about his LIBERATE VIRGINIA! tweet is that Virginia is under an order through June 10 - probably one of the longest in the country - in part because its northern cities are DC commuting suburbs. More importantly, the governor is a PHYSICIAN who has repeatedly said that science not politics will dictate when/how to re-open. Granted, the governor is a Democrat, but he's also someone who knows more about medicine & science than Trump. Ergo, the stable genius must belittle him.


Yeah but , there needs to be data to guide decision making. No doubt. There needs to be a clear plan in place. No doubt. Responsible leadership. Of course. But if you totally rely on the science it could be like NY saying they needed 140,000 hospital beds and they needed 30,000 ventilators at minimum. Science can be wrong, you can be too reliant on it to a detriment.

Everything changes, evolves day to day. It all needs weighed and evaluated and assumptions, expectations all need evaluated with risks and rewards. Solely relying on the science isn't enough. Solely relying on economics isn't enough. Strike the balance. We'll have some Democrat governors that I think will be playing politics in the sense they are reluctant to relax and open because Trump is pushing for it and their base wants to be more cautious. Just like we have some Republican governors are going too soon because Trump and their base wants them to. Politics is almost impossible to keep out of everything now.

I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state. They have to figure it out. It's just that solely relying on the science can be misguided as well.


BIGV - 4/21/2020 at 02:32 AM

quote:
I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state.


X2


2112 - 4/21/2020 at 03:09 AM

quote:
Georgia, Tennessee announce plans to reopen some businesses, wind down coronavirus stay-at-home orders

Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp said certain businesses including restaurants, gyms and hair salons can reopen beginning this Friday. Meanwhile, Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee confirmed his state's stay-at-home order, previously extended to April 30, will end that day.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/georgia-tennessee-announce-plans-to-reopen-some- businesses-wind-down-coronavirus-stay-at-home-orders



My gut tells me that this is too soon, especially in Georgia where they still have a significant number of new cases and deaths. But, it should be an interesting experiment for the other states to see what happen in a couple weeks after the reopening. If there isn't a big second wave, well then maybe some other states can think of reopening sooner than expected. If the number of new cases jump, well we will know what not to do. As I go to a music festival in Georgia ever September, I hope they can reopen things earlier than later and I can save my trip. If there is a big setback, then my trip will be doomed.


cyclone88 - 4/21/2020 at 05:06 AM

quote:
I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state. They have to figure it out. It's just that solely relying on the science can be misguided as well.


Clarification: The Virginia governor didn't say he was relying solely on science. He said in the choice between politics & science, science is the determining factor. I have family there & follow his daily briefings that present models similar to those Fauci/Birx use on a county by county basis in the state. It's updated daily. There are daily reports of available resources, economic indicators, & other pertinent data to decision-making. Politics are less important to Virginia governors as they have a 4 yr term limit.


stormyrider - 4/21/2020 at 11:26 AM

Kentucky sees highest spike in coronavirus cases after lockdown protests


https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/kentucky-sees-highest-spike-in-coronavirus-ca ses-after-protests/


quote:
Kentucky experienced its highest single-day spike in coronavirus cases after protests broke out in the state to lift lockdowns, according to reports.

Gov. Andy Beshear announced there were 273 new cases Sunday, bringing the total to 2,960, news station WCPO reported.

“We are still in the midst of this fight against a deadly and highly contagious virus,” Beshear said. “Let’s make sure, as much as we’re looking at those benchmarks and we’re looking at the future, that we are acting in the present and we are doing the things that it takes to protect one another.”

The Bluegrass State is among the regions that have seen demonstrators take to the streets last week to call for the end of lockdown restrictions.

Around 100 protesters gathered Wednesday on the lawn of the Capitol building in Frankfort during Democrat Beshear’s coronavirus briefing, shouting “Open up Kentucky!” and “King Beshear,” the Lexington Herald-Leader reported.

The same group returned Friday to the Capitol building, where they were met by barricades, the newspaper reported.

Instead, they circled the area in cars for a drive-through protest of Beshear’s coronavirus restrictions, the report said.

It’s unclear whether the protests had any impact on the surge of deaths reported Sunday in the state.

Beshear said at least 13 percent of cases reported in Kentucky have been nursing home residents.

Of the 273 new cases, there were 33 patients who were residents of nursing homes and eight more who were staffers, he said.

Beshear insisted Sunday he wouldn’t budge yet on easing lockdown restrictions despite the calls from protesters, according to the newspaper.

“We’re not in the 14 days of decreasing under the White House guidelines to do certain things,” Beshear said.
Modify message



[Edited on 4/21/2020 by stormyrider]


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 01:15 PM

Things are getting weird. A health crisis and building civil unrest.


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 01:19 PM

More stories of businesses in Ohio making plans to reopen regardless of what Dewine's plans are on May 1.


cyclone88 - 4/21/2020 at 01:41 PM

The great re-open experiment has begun in some southern states:

SC allows dept stores & retailers who sell furniture, books, music, flowers, clothing/accessories, & sporting goods to open today at 20% capacity or 5 people/1,000 sf. Beaches will also open today at noon.

The questions are how many retailers will open, how many people will shop, who will police the capacity cap, & will there be a spike in cases in 14 days?

GA will allow tattoo parlors, hair, nail, & massage salons, bowling alleys, & gyms to re-open Friday with restaurants & movie theatres re-opening Monday. The governor expects to see a spike in cases but the state is "better prepared to handle it."

Questions here are how is GA & its front line workers "better prepared" given that there's no antibody test, vaccine, or treatment? The bigger question is how many Georgians are going to rush out to get a tattoo? Probably a lot of people will be rushing out to hair & nail salons. Even so, how many business owners are going to open w/o any change in preparation or treatment of the virus. The governor seems to think the risk of increased cases & health risks to medical staffs are worth the political capital he's making w/Trump.

These openings go against the recommendations of Fauci/Birx & Trump's official position. Trump's made no secret that he wants businesses open. Are these the kinds of businesses that are going to jump start the economy at the risk of lives? It's one thing for people to take the risk; it's another to expect medical workers to take that risk w/them.






stormyrider - 4/21/2020 at 02:09 PM

quote:
It's one thing for people to take the risk; it's another to expect medical workers to take that risk w/them


thank you

not to mention the other innocent people that the risk takers may expose


Rusty - 4/21/2020 at 02:58 PM

The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.


alanwoods - 4/21/2020 at 03:06 PM

quote:
Things are getting weird. A health crisis and building civil unrest.


Never say the mass media hasn't done its part...

This would have never played out the way it has were this April 2021 instead of April 2020.


pops42 - 4/21/2020 at 03:26 PM

I tend to believe the "Experts" Doctors, scientists, and those who echo their facts. not trump or his enablers, struggling to hold on to power, even if it means YOUR family and loved ones dying for their selfish actions. Hearing "Ive got a hunch" from a know nothing, pumpkin head, like trump just doesnt do it for me.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by pops42]


MartinD28 - 4/21/2020 at 04:45 PM

quote:
The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.


I saw interviews with 3 mayors of GA - Atlanta & I believe the other 2 were Augusta & Albany? None said that the gov of GA had consulted with them on this. None were in favor of this.

I also saw the graphic of Covid cases, and the chart was stil rising, and that only takes into account the small % of tests consducted to population. I don't believe the stats even meet Trump's guidlines. The gov opens up some of the most least social distancing businesses. So politics and economics first with health somewhere a distant third on the priority chart. Glad Gov Kemp is not the gov of my state.

The gov is going to either look like a pathway leader or an utter fool. Time will tell.


2112 - 4/21/2020 at 06:43 PM

Yeah, I don't understand the choices for businesses either. Seems like small businesses and shops that don't service a ton of customers at a time should come first, especially businesses where customers would not touch all of the products while browsing. Things like craft stores, furniture stores, game stores, antique shops, etc. But movie theaters? They should be among the last businesses to reopen.


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 07:08 PM





South Carolina is trending down. Although I do not think anyone has yet to meet the full 14 day threshold. But those are guidelines, maybe some Governors will want more evidence than 2 weeks, obviously some Governors are going with less.

As has been mentioned, it really comes down to the medical capacity these states and communities within the states have. Nobody wants to willingly create more workload for health care workers and facilities, but it always comes back to what is acceptable risk? If we keep a stay at home order longer and then open up gradually, cases are going to go down and then they will rebound some when they open up. Or...they can open up gradually now rather than staying at home so the cases won't experience a drop, but maybe will stay steady instead of going down and coming back up? Maybe it's the same net result?

It's not just the Republican Governors now either.

Colorado (Polis, D) on April 27 is going to allow tattoo parlors, hair salons, one-on-one real estate home showings (no open houses), dental procedures as well as all retail may open for curbside pick-up and then allow in store retail May 1. And they are allowing child care to start back up April 27th. Naturally there are going to be certain protocols and restrictions, but these are big steps when there isn't evidence that now is the time to do it.

Colorado does not meet the criteria either:



Polis is giving his counties the ability to be more open or more restrictive as they see fit. It is going to spread, if infections reach a certain point, restrictions will have to be implemented again. How many will comply at that point?

“Now it enters the time of individual responsibility and choices,” he said. “And I trust the people of Colorado to make good choices.”


cyclone88 - 4/21/2020 at 10:10 PM

quote:
I saw interviews with 3 mayors of GA - Atlanta & I believe the other 2 were Augusta & Albany? None said that the gov of GA had consulted with them on this. None were in favor of this.

And they're speaking out urging residents to ignore re-openings because it goes against "logic" & public health expert policies. Business owners themselves are refusing to re-open, especially in Atlanta where restaurant owners cite the health & safety of their staffs & patrons as a primary reason for not re-opening. Outlets of national chains of restaurants & gyms aren't re-opening. Kemp can allow businesses to re-open to give a false sense of economic resurrection but he can't force to them do so.


crazyjoe - 4/21/2020 at 10:54 PM

Never had a clue how critical and important Bowling Alleys, Massage Parlors and Tatoo Parlors to some of our Southern States?.............get em open!!!........I will take a rain check........joe


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 11:09 PM

Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]


gina - 4/21/2020 at 11:20 PM

As of today Georgia has 19,398 KNOWN cases, 774 deaths.

Without massive testing the real numbers of infections are unknown and they can infect others. Florida is now up to 27,058 and opening those beaches will raise that number.

People need to be patient to be safe.


crazyjoe - 4/22/2020 at 12:03 AM

quote:
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]


Yes and no maybe! Colorado while in the continental us seems to me like BFE? I have been to Georgia? If indeed the case, then IMO the Dem Gov is mistaken and possibly weak kneed, ignorant etc, much like the Georgia Gov? .......Peace.......joe


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 12:05 AM

quote:
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

You pointed out the difference & it has nothing to do w/politics - GA isn't allowing counties/local leadership to make decisions based on pertinent data whereas CO is.

Data shows that African-Americans have been hit harder by COVID-19 than any other ethnicity & the mayor of Atlanta pointed to that as one reason she's concerned about re-opening there. Atlanta is more than 50% black according to 2020 census data (GA is 35% black) whereas CO is 4% black.


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 02:37 AM

quote:
quote:
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]


Yes and no maybe! Colorado while in the continental us seems to me like BFE? I have been to Georgia? If indeed the case, then IMO the Dem Gov is mistaken and possibly weak kneed, ignorant etc, much like the Georgia Gov? .......Peace.......joe


Some rural areas of Colorado got extremely strict with their orders due to their lack of ICU beds and medical capacity to handle any kind of surge. When I say strict, I mean, like if you drove into a neighboring county and parked at a trailhead to cross country ski, if you did that in San Juan county, your car could be towed. And many mountain communities implemented "locals only" policy - like in Gunnison County non-residents were told to leave! Like get out, we don't care if you own property here, leave. So this is important context to understand the state has taken this very seriously, up til now. Colorado does not have better testing ability than anywhere else. And Colorado does not have 14 days of declining cases either. And yet they are relaxing. Importantly, the Governor does give local areas the ability to tailor their own restrictions as necessary, which is very good. But here, Colorado is not being led by science. It isn't just Republicans that are "rushing to open", granted, there are more of them and more Democrat Governors are in the wait-it-out cautious approach. Even though NY has opened golf courses and marinas. My Mom is in Florida. Their golf courses were open "with restrictions" to. Restrictions like 1 golfer per cart. Great and guess what, when they get out to actually golf it's a group of people bunched together like nothing is wrong. Will NY golfers be any different?

Here was my Colorado source by the way:
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/04/20/colorado-coronavirus-covid-stay-at-ho me-order-ends/
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/colorado-is-planning-to-r eopen-even-without-widespread-testing-which-experts-stressed-is-necessary

Colorado is taking "calculated risk". At some point we are all going to have to do it. Right? I want it, I just worry that some are moving it too soon. There's no way to control it nationally. Governors are going to do what they want. And people within those states are going to do what they want. All we can hope is that people and businesses take the appropriate precautions. Some will. Some won't. We'll get what we get out of it.

[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 02:55 AM

quote:
quote:
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

You pointed out the difference & it has nothing to do w/politics - GA isn't allowing counties/local leadership to make decisions based on pertinent data whereas CO is.

Data shows that African-Americans have been hit harder by COVID-19 than any other ethnicity & the mayor of Atlanta pointed to that as one reason she's concerned about re-opening there. Atlanta is more than 50% black according to 2020 census data (GA is 35% black) whereas CO is 4% black.




You are right, I did point out the difference. And also what I didn't say is that we know Georgia is going just beyond hair salons and tattoo parlors. So it isn't quite apples to apples, but the apples and oranges are on the same shelf at least.

I will admit, I am guilty of watching too much CNN and MSNBC. I'm a news junkie and those networks are good at what they do, it appeals to me. And I just get used to seeing stories of Republicans doing things wrong and Democrats being the saviors. It's just stories about how, ok, testing...Trump touts all these tests, whatever the total accumulated total is, he boasts about it. And the media, correctly I might add, points out that it is not per capita, it isn't comparable to our population size and that of other countries. But then at the very same time, one of Rachael Maddow's favorite things to do (tongue in cheek, as in she appears to like running the numbers but I'm not saying she takes enjoyment in it), she often shows how many total cases we have in the US, a very large number on whatever night she is showing it. Then she shows all the countries of Europe to show just how many more cases we have, like cherry pick European countries and add it up and we have more cases. Know what she doesn't do? Put it in per capita context or as a % of overall population. If she did that then the US would be in line with European infections, but that doesn't fit the narrative. Per capita testing is the issue, but per capita infection rate isn't discussed. Or the meat packing outbreaks. South Dakota of course. Everyone is going to report that it is such a huge outbreak...and the Governor is a Republican who hasn't implemented stay at home orders when everyone said she should have. But while the Smithfield outbreak in Souix Falls is a lead story...similar outbreaks, like the one in Greely Colorado that infected hundreds, or the 4 meat packing plants in PA that had to close due to coronavirus infections aren't reported or mentioned with the same frequency or dare I say enthusiasm because...well some states have Republican Governors and some states have Democrat Governors. And some media outlets, some journalists and some opinion news "entertainers" have leanings and bias one way or the other.

It's fine. I watch it. I enjoy the programs. I just see stuff like that and it comes across in some of the things I post here.

So when Debra Birx gets asked tattoo parlors or hair dressers reopening, she is asked about it related to Georgia. They could've just asked about those businesses in general and her feelings on that, but no they said it about Georgia, as if Georgia is the only state doing this. Point being Georgia has a stupid Republican Governor and the other states, well they might have a smart Democrat Governor.

That is all.

Your point about risk groups among certain populations and the increased vulnerability they have to this virus is worrisome. Colorado may only have 4% black population, but they have a 22% Hispanic population. Hispanics in NYC made up 34% of the deaths (higher than blacks). So Colorado has vulnerable populations too.


[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 04:15 AM

quote:
So when Debra Birx gets asked tattoo parlors or hair dressers reopening, she is asked about it related to Georgia. They could've just asked about those businesses in general and her feelings on that, but no they said it about Georgia, as if Georgia is the only state doing this. Point being Georgia has a stupid Republican Governor and the other states, well they might have a smart Democrat Governor.

I don't own a TV so don't watch any of the interview shows & I limit my news reading to twice/day. You have much broader knowledge as to specific reporters, questions asked, & media bias so I defer to you on that.

I do think the media misses fundamental questions. For example, I didn't see any analysis of the demand side of re-opening. Sure, a governor can say certain businesses can re-open but that doesn't mean the business owners & patrons are going to make it happen. Models from China show how the virus is transmitted in restaurants from one table to people 3 tables away. Restauranteurs are saying no way are they re-opening w/o testing for staff & patrons. Salons, spas, & tat shops require close contact - the opposite of the social distancing we know has flattened the curve. Not all business owners are willing to expose their staff or patrons to that. More importantly, how many customers need a manicure, tat, or restaurant meal so as to risk getting a deadly virus & passing it on? So how big a deal is it that a governor allows re-opening of some businesses?

The biggest question to me is why those businesses? If the point is to jump start the economy, those businesses are unlikely to have a big impact.


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 12:53 PM

You've correctly identified one of my flaws, watching TV! We all have vices.

You are right in that some or even most of these businesses who do open are going to have low level sales and activity. It's not going to Have much of an impact from a tax revenue aspect for the states either. Some of these self employed business owners say they have no money and for all the safety nets and aid either can't access or don't qualify. I've heard some call into our local radio show. People say they are dying financially. They might not care their income is going to be a fraction of what normal is. Right now it is zero.


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 01:20 PM

I did see that restaurant diagram yesterday of how a Chinese family infected other diners.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/health/airflow-coronavirus-restaurants.h tml

One thing I found interesting though is none of the 8 servers working the room got infected.

And the only ones who did get infected were immediately next to the seeders' table.

Clearly there is risk...there is some risk in the currently permitted activities under stay home order. Risk is going to increase as activity increases.

It might give some optimism though that by removing tables and spacing customers apart it reduces that otherwise increased risk, again since in the example only close tables got infected and there were a total of 81 other people (including the 8 workers) in the room that day who didn't get infected. And given the people at table A may've infected themselves before entering the restaurant, still 5 people got it. Will precautions restaurants take be enough? Will customers go? Will servers want to work? Would I go? I would consider eating at a large outdoor patio with spaced apart tables. But not now, not soon, at some point I will. Just have to weigh the risk and make a judgement.


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 01:44 PM

quote:
You've correctly identified one of my flaws, watching TV! We all have vices.

You are right in that some or even most of these businesses who do open are going to have low level sales and activity. It's not going to Have much of an impact from a tax revenue aspect for the states either. Some of these self employed business owners say they have no money and for all the safety nets and aid either can't access or don't qualify. I've heard some call into our local radio show. People say they are dying financially. They might not care their income is going to be a fraction of what normal is. Right now it is zero.

Watching TV isn't a vice. You're probably one of the best-informed posters. I've just always been a BBC-NPR/newspaper person.

The updates re COVID-19 programs from the bar association I get say employee relief is working & includes workers who normally wouldn't qualify for unemployment benefits. The relief programs for the businesses themselves aren't as successful.

From the interviews I've read & granted it's a small sample, business owners of the type allowed to open have expressed more concerns about risk than money. Most say their employees are covered through one of the many programs & have income through July 31. They're more concerned that there's no testing for who might be contagious & have to shut down in days or weeks so they'd rather maintain the status quo. They also have start-up costs that they don't want to see evaporate if they have to close again IF they can even get supplies. Some have just said they can't give a manicure, pedicure, or massage & be 6' away from their client & they know social distancing is what's saved us. Retailers would just be selling off current inventory as orders for summer/fall merchandise haven't been placed or have been cancelled. In cities like Atlanta, major department stores aren't going to re-open unless the headquarters opens stores nationwide; Neiman Marcus is set to file for bankruptcy this week (less to do w/COVID-19 than overleveraging).

https://atlanta.eater.com/2020/4/21/21228934/atlanta-restaurant-owners-reac t-reopening-dining-rooms-covid19

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/businesses-reopen-c losed-plaza-theatre-theater-theaters-cuttz-barber-chris-escobar-jayln-sizem ore-coronavirus-covid/85-298dc845-a4a3-4b5a-86d6-bfeb13910766

The flip side is small businesses along the GA coast that are eager to open for tourists as Rusty mentioned.

When I said these types of businesses aren't going to give the economic boost that Trump craves, I meant the stock market. A tee shirt shop on the beach & a tat parlor in Atlanta aren't making a dent there.


Chain - 4/22/2020 at 02:32 PM

Up here in the Watertown, NY area a local grocery store chain of some size and prominence was the location for volunteer anti-body testing yesterday. Public Health officials randomly asked patrons as they entered the store if they would like to volunteer to be tested.

I don't know the exact number, but the local news outlet that reported it and filmed some of the folks doing the testing i believe indicated the health officials goal was a sample size of 1,000 tests. There appeared to be lines of people waiting to take the test.

One thing I'm sure we're all witnessing beyond the death and sickness and economic destruction is the coming together by a lot of people to fight this pandemic. It's encouraging to me and I'm sure many others out there too....And it's not lip service on my part, I really mean it.


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 07:12 PM

quote:
NY rescinds do-not-resuscitate guideline during coronavirus pandemic


Thank you for providing accurate information. Not sure why that particular topic was posted on this thread other than trolling. It has nothing to do w/states re-opening certain businesses.


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 07:23 PM

The model used by Trump's experts indicates that no state should open before May 1 & most should wait longer. Specifically, based on current cases, Georgia shouldn't re-open until June 19, South Carolina June 5, & Colorado May 25. The model is based on the assumption states will have measures in place - aggressive testing, contact tracing, isolation, limits on the size of gatherings. If states don't have those protections in pace, a resurgence of cases is projected.

Projections for every state:
http://www.healthdata.org/covid/updates


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 10:28 PM

It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I'm not asserting that the states must follow the White House guidelines to a T in opening, but essentially, no state planning on opening is following the White House guidelines.


[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 10:56 PM

Pence just said something to the effect "the best thing you can do to reopen America is to keep doing what you are doing". And he's right. A bunch of states are close and getting close. It's what Trump should've been saying.


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 11:18 PM

quote:
It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I linked the IHME model projected dates in my post. They were last updated yesterday.

Trump just said that he told the GA governor that he strongly disagreed w/his decision to open certain facilities, which are in violation of the phase one guidelines based in part on the IHME model. "It's just too soon. I think it's too soon."


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 11:27 PM

quote:
quote:
It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I linked the IHME model projected dates in my post. They were last updated yesterday.

Trump just said that he told the GA governor that he strongly disagreed w/his decision to open certain facilities, which are in violation of the phase one guidelines based in part on the IHME model. "It's just too soon. I think it's too soon."



Yes and thank you. Rule of thumb, never listen to ABBGMTTB.

Would be nice option if members here who start a thread could moderate their own thread and remove trolling posts.

Trump hinted that yesterday he was going to be speaking the Georgia governor. That is a fairly big step for Trump to reprimand a fellow Republican Governor. Have to think some members of the team got to him on that. The task force team tries to keep Trump centered, sometimes it works.


MartinD28 - 4/23/2020 at 12:18 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I linked the IHME model projected dates in my post. They were last updated yesterday.

Trump just said that he told the GA governor that he strongly disagreed w/his decision to open certain facilities, which are in violation of the phase one guidelines based in part on the IHME model. "It's just too soon. I think it's too soon."



Yes and thank you. Rule of thumb, never listen to ABBGMTTB.

Would be nice option if members here who start a thread could moderate their own thread and remove trolling posts.

Trump hinted that yesterday he was going to be speaking the Georgia governor. That is a fairly big step for Trump to reprimand a fellow Republican Governor. Have to think some members of the team got to him on that. The task force team tries to keep Trump centered, sometimes it works.


You beat me to it. You are correct. No doubt that Fauci or others probably got through to MAGA guy. Have no doubt that left to his own, Trump would have green lighted Kemp in GA for reopening. He's been toutiing the gov in last few days for all the good things the gov does...in usual Trump dialog. Reality set in, and the light bulb went off that if things go badly & Trump's been backing this effort, then it makes Trump look bad or worse than he already looks.

Think about this. MAGA prez has done nothing to dissuade those red hats protesting at state capitals. He's even given them cover. Even said they are practicing social distancing which pictures, in many instance show to be false. So how does Trump balance supporting protests but now advising Gov Kemp not to move forward? MAGA prez wants it both ways.


cyclone88 - 4/23/2020 at 12:25 AM

quote:
Trump hinted that yesterday he was going to be speaking the Georgia governor. That is a fairly big step for Trump to reprimand a fellow Republican Governor. Have to think some members of the team got to him on that. The task force team tries to keep Trump centered, sometimes it works.


Yes, it works sometimes. Sometimes, it doesn't. Now that controlled studies of chloroquine have progressed to the point where some have been halted due to cardiac problems in patients as well as inefficacy, Trump, Fox, & Dr. Oz have been silent on that "miracle drug" about which Trump had a great "feeling." Of course, that didn't stop the administration from firing the doctor responsible for drug allocation yesterday for not making the unproven chloroquine widely available. He announced he'll be firing a whistleblower complaint this week.

The man simply can't stand to be proven wrong. If he'd just not spew nonsense that can easily be contradicted, he'd be better off - we all would be. It's incredible to see such misplaced vindictiveness & vengeance in an adult man much less POTUS.






Rusty - 4/23/2020 at 01:08 AM

Meanwhile, in the state of Georgia ... Lindsey Graham and even Donald Trump start to sound like the voice of reason. It's early, but when they make the movie - I say that Will Ferrell plays Brian Kemp. But only because Don Knotts is deceased.


nebish - 4/23/2020 at 03:34 AM

quote:
I say that Will Ferrell plays Brian Kemp.


That made me laugh just picturing it!


stormyrider - 4/23/2020 at 12:52 PM

In NH, there was a daily increase of about 50 documented cases per day
Late last week there were protests at the state Capitol to re open the state (we have a Republican Governor, fwiw)
From the photos, people were NOT adhering to distancing recomendations

Today we had 98 new cases, almost double the prior daily average.

maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not

regardless, too soon to relax restrictions


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 01:33 AM

Chain mentioned NY's random antibody test a few posts back, here's a story:


quote:

One in five who were tested for antibodies in New York City had them.

About 21 percent of about 1,300 people in New York City who were screened for virus antibodies tested positive, Governor Andrew M. Cuomo said on Thursday.

The results come from a state program that randomly tested 3,000 supermarket customers across New York State this week. Nearly 14 percent of those tests came back positive, he said.

If those numbers translate to the true incidence of the virus, they would mean that more than 1.7 million people in New York City, and more than 2.4 million people statewide, have already been infected. These numbers are far greater than the 250,000 confirmed cases of the virus itself that the state has recorded.

Hours before Mr. Cuomo’s presentation, a top New York City health official cautioned against making too much of the usefulness of the test results in making critical decisions about social distancing and reopening the economy, particularly in identifying immunity. The official said the tests “may produce false negative or false positive results,” pointing to “significant voids” in using the science to pinpoint immunity.

Mr. Cuomo declined to speculate further on what the preliminary data might mean. He said its main use would to provide a baseline for tracking changes in the infection rate. (Supermarket customers do not constitute a random sample of the population.)

By the time New York City confirmed its first case on March 1, thousands of infections were already silently spreading through the city, according to a model of the disease by researchers at Northeastern University.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/us/coronavirus-live-news-coverage.html#l ink-5ac27645



Hard to make too much of this, in fact we are warned not to make too much of it. If the tests were accurate it certainly sheds new light on how many people may've already been touched by this virus which then does effect all the other metrics on death and hospitalization ratios.


Sang - 4/24/2020 at 03:51 AM

Yet you just bang the same tiresome drum ... with lies, of course


stormyrider - 4/24/2020 at 11:13 AM

Both GOP and Dem governors have said there isn’t enough testing
I’m on the front lines of a state with a GOP Governor and we don’t have enough tests. In fact, we have the least per capital in all of NE. We can’t get the supplies.

Fauci said we don’t have enough tests

There isn’t enough testing done. We have the desire and mechanics to do it. There are not enough materials

Fact

[Edited on 4/24/2020 by stormyrider]


Rusty - 4/24/2020 at 12:42 PM

Alright! So, here in Georgia you can finally get that tattoo, haircut and even a massage before heading out to bowl or watch a movie! I'm thinking about hitting a few of these establishments today, as I have never seen 6' long scissors or tattoo needles ... or a masseuse with 6' long arms! Thank you, Governor Simp!


alanwoods - 4/24/2020 at 12:44 PM

In Tennessee:

https://www.wate.com/news/tennessee/list-which-tennessee-state-parks-will-r eopen-april-24/

https://www.wate.com/news/blount-county-restaurant-owners-anticipate-reopen ing-half-capacity-after-covid-19-restrictions/

Too soon?

In Blount County, where the article references, there have been 2 new cases since the 9th. (one new one each of the last two days) The State Parks all being closed was extreme to begin with. The Great Smokies have been closed to all access since March 23.

Yesterday the total for all cases, including recovered, was 8,266 with highest concentrations being around the metropolitan areas of Nashville and Memphis. Knox County has had 206 cases with 29 cases currently active. There are 95 counties in Tennessee.

I think that certain areas can have restrictions eased. I realize that one shelter-in-place orders are lifted, people will start to travel and visit other areas. Being quarantined for a month or more will make you restless.

Myself, I would like to go out to dinner and go caveman on a table full of Mexican food, but I'll probably be somewhat on the "wait and see" side...


Rusty - 4/24/2020 at 12:48 PM

I hear ya, Alan. For purposes of perspective - the day after our governor made these decisions to reopen, Glynn County (home of the "Golden Isles") added 2 new CV cases and suffered its first death. Come on in! The water's fine! I'll point out that we were clean as a whistle before the annual Spring Break pilgrimage. If anybody needs me, I'll be indoors all summer.


cyclone88 - 4/24/2020 at 01:09 PM

quote:
I’m on the front lines of a state with a GOP Governor and we don’t have enough tests. In fact, we have the least per capital in all of NE. We can’t get the supplies.

There isn’t enough testing done. We have the desire and mechanics to do it. There are not enough materials

Fact

@stormy, forgive me, but I'm confused on testing. Are there 2 types of tests - 1 for diagnosis & 1 for antibodies?

When you & the other experts say not enough tests, you mean diagnostic? They exist but they're not being made fast enough or distributed? They're supplied to the hospitals directly from the manufacturer? or are they rationed by the state?

I read that hold-ups were due to a lack of cotton for nasal swabs and the wrong size vial for the sample. That seems insane.

You & your wife stay safe!


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 02:21 PM

quote:
“We’re also going to be switching over to plastic silverware and plates, so that we don’t have to touch the dirty dishes as often, we don’t have to wash their dishes, we just throw everything straight in the trash. Wipe down all the tables with sanitizer and bleach, make sure everything is cleaned after every guest, that way we can ensure a clean meal as possible for everybody,” Roberts said.


I think it's helpful our friends here post little glimpse inside their states. I know a little about some other states, but only pay close attention to Ohio. I know a little more about Colorado because I live vicariously through a few friends I have living there (great state!).

The above quote is from Alan's link. I had thought how restaurants might handle their glasses...when you get a draft beer afterwards sometimes you just see them dunk it in a tub of soapy water, dunk it in a tub of clean water before putting it drying it in a machine. Maybe the high heat of the drying machine kills virus, but would people feel comfortable this stuff is clean enough. So I can see going to more disposable plates, glasses, fork, knife and spoons. Good on one hand, not so good on another hand.


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 02:34 PM

Regarding Glynn County (Golden Isles) and 2 new cases and a death after opening, due to the incubation period and time leading to getting tested I'd be willing to bet those people were infected several days to a week or two before the opening.

There are going to be new cases when states relax and try to reopen. There are going go to be new cases if states did not relax and reopen. We have had a few grocery store employees here get infected. There is some level of business operation and activity now before opening.

The key thing is going to be with any new infections, is there a capacity in the healthcare system to accommodate new hospitalizations? 20-25% of people infected will need hospitalization. So the governors and health professionals are going to have to know what is available and monitor cases and behavior to see what is happening.

When we get reports of new cases after relaxing and opening of new cases, that alone should not dictate whether or not relaxed status and partial openings get suspended or withdrawn. It depends the point which those new infections reach that will determine what happens next. People are going to have to be responsible and careful when they go out and do things, take precautions and limit exposure to the best extent possible and be respectful others around you and your friends and family at home.


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 02:48 PM

Ohio tests are still limited, but apparently we do have enough to expand the criteria of who gets tests. Here is Ohio's priority for testing. Priority 3 is a new category they can now begin to test people from.



The availability and number of tests is only going to get better as time goes on. This week our Governor said he expects "significant" increases in testing in the coming weeks. There isn't much of antibody testing here yet, some businesses have some agencies, but there are still warnings about reliability and accuracy of the antibody tests.

The Governor had said a couple times he would release Ohio's plan for opening and guidelines for businesses yesterday. Then yesterday he said he didn't recall saying it would be yesterday and instead will be announced on Monday. Last week he said businesses should prepare for some limited opening and relaxing May 1st, but has yet to offer any details beyond that.

Ohio does have about a week's worth of declining cases and hospitalization rate is slowing. Our recent spikes are due to larger testing of prison populations.


Rusty - 4/24/2020 at 02:49 PM

quote:
Regarding Glynn County (Golden Isles) and 2 new cases and a death after opening, due to the incubation period and time leading to getting tested I'd be willing to bet those people were infected several days to a week or two before the opening. ...


Correct as rain, I'm sure you are. Just pointing out that this fire is far from extinguished.


stormyrider - 4/24/2020 at 04:22 PM

quote:
quote:
I’m on the front lines of a state with a GOP Governor and we don’t have enough tests. In fact, we have the least per capital in all of NE. We can’t get the supplies.

There isn’t enough testing done. We have the desire and mechanics to do it. There are not enough materials

Fact

@stormy, forgive me, but I'm confused on testing. Are there 2 types of tests - 1 for diagnosis & 1 for antibodies?

When you & the other experts say not enough tests, you mean diagnostic? They exist but they're not being made fast enough or distributed? They're supplied to the hospitals directly from the manufacturer? or are they rationed by the state?

I read that hold-ups were due to a lack of cotton for nasal swabs and the wrong size vial for the sample. That seems insane.

You & your wife stay safe!

There are 2 types of tests
The diagnostic test - swab, is to tell if you ARE infected
the antibody testtells if you had the disease and recovered

Both are important. The scary thing is that people can be infectious before symptoms develop or without even ever having them

The antibody test is still new and not widely available. There are many unapproved tests people are doing but I wouldn't trust them.

The diagnostic test, which is what I was referring to, as I believe was Fauci and the Governors, is available but there are not enough so we can't test enough people.
There are shortages of swabs and cartridges, depending upon where you live. We are getting our cartridges from FEMA but there aren't enough to give everyone all they need. They are giving priority to states with more cases, which is understandable but still a problem.

Thanks


cyclone88 - 4/24/2020 at 05:05 PM

quote:
The antibody test is still new and not widely available. There are many unapproved tests people are doing but I wouldn't trust them.

The diagnostic test, which is what I was referring to, as I believe was Fauci and the Governors, is available but there are not enough so we can't test enough people. There are shortages of swabs and cartridges, depending upon where you live. We are getting our cartridges from FEMA but there aren't enough to give everyone all they need. They are giving priority to states with more cases, which is understandable but still a problem.


Got it, thanks. States are thinking about opening up even though they don't have enough diagnostic tests to determine if people - asymptomatic or not - have it. Makes no sense.

My confusion came from Cuomo's announcement of an antibody test developed in NY & tested on grocery store shoppers throughout the state that really isn't useful yet.


Sang - 4/24/2020 at 05:15 PM

They are ramping up testing in Illinois, opening 4 sites for people to sit in line in their cars and get tested. Supposed to be for first responders, 65 and older, people showing symptoms and people under 65 with pre-existing conditions. They eventually will be able to do about 2900 per day total at these sites. The state capacity for processing the tests is around 10,000 per day... which they haven't hit yet.

Now that they are doing more testing, our number of positive for covid have been going up a lot - from 1000 per day to over 2000 per day....


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 08:51 PM

Ohio today said that with Thermo Fisher being approved by the FDA to make reagent and a Cleveland dental product manufacturer will make swabs...Ohio will go from almost 4000 a day testing ability to 22,000 by May 27th. That must be what Governor Dewine meant earlier in saying "significant" increase in testing.

He also said that Ohio has a plan for contact tracing that will involve 1750 existing health care workers, volunteers and med school students.

Monday he is announcing plans for allowing some businesses to open. I will be very curious to hear both the justifications and the guidelines. Businesses not following guidelines can be reported to the department of health, as in if an employee or customer does not feel safe, the business will have to comply or will not be allowed to stay open.

Ohio case count appears to have peaked on 4/19 at 1380 (driven by large prison population tests) (4/19 was exactly when IHME had predicted we would peak in early April although the case count at the peak was way off). Since the peak our new case count this week has been 1317, 806, 392, 577 and 475. Hospitalizations are down a little, but more of a sustained plateau. 79% of Ohio's deaths are white, 17% are black. 47% of Ohio's deaths are 80 and older, 28% are aged 70-79. Ohio reports probable deaths as well as confirmed deaths in the total.


crazyjoe - 4/27/2020 at 03:22 PM

Another example of Captain Sh!t Bag doing all he can to make sure and get his donors (err I mean small public businesses) all the monies that were meant for them??............joe

One Trump Donor's Hotel Companies Got $96. 1 Million Meant for Small Businesses

https://flip.it/PbZj9F


crazyjoe - 4/27/2020 at 04:41 PM

quote:
quote:
Another example of Captain Sh!t Bag doing all he can to make sure and get his donors (err I mean small public businesses) all the monies that were meant for them??............joe

One Trump Donor's Hotel Companies Got $96. 1 Million Meant for Small Businesses

https://flip.it/PbZj9F



President Trump and his administration did not write the bill, Congress wrote it.




I don't know ABBGMTTB, just don't seem like an upstanding and honest guy to me? I don't trust him, as he doesn't seem trustworthy, I read a little piece that explained why folks who still support Trump are even more mentally misguided and unstable than Trump himself!?? Obama/ Clinton Nov. 2020!!!.............Peace........joe


porkchopbob - 4/27/2020 at 09:55 PM

quote:
Top 10 States/Governors slowest to test for coronavirus:

New York Cuomo – (D)
New Jersey Murphy – (D)
Washington Inslee – (D)
California Newsom – (D)
Oregon Brown – (D)
Illinois Pritzker (D)
Michigan Whitmer (D)
Louisiana Edwards (D)
Minnesota Walz – (D)
Maryland Hogan – (R)

Top 9 of 10 failure Governors are Democrats.



"Slowest"? How is that quantified? Especially considering many of those states were hit early and hardest, this doesn't really qualify as a legit stat.


piacere - 4/27/2020 at 11:31 PM

quote:
Top 10 States/Governors slowest to test for coronavirus:

New York Cuomo – (D)
New Jersey Murphy – (D)
Washington Inslee – (D)
California Newsom – (D)
Oregon Brown – (D)
Illinois Pritzker (D)
Michigan Whitmer (D)
Louisiana Edwards (D)
Minnesota Walz – (D)
Maryland Hogan – (R)

Top 9 of 10 failure Governors are Democrats.



There are exceptions. Here in RI, governor Raimondo has an 86% approval rating for her handling of this situation and RI is, comparatively and per capita, doing better than most states.

Democrat.


2112 - 4/28/2020 at 12:40 AM

quote:
quote:
Top 10 States/Governors slowest to test for coronavirus:

New York Cuomo – (D)
New Jersey Murphy – (D)
Washington Inslee – (D)
California Newsom – (D)
Oregon Brown – (D)
Illinois Pritzker (D)
Michigan Whitmer (D)
Louisiana Edwards (D)
Minnesota Walz – (D)
Maryland Hogan – (R)

Top 9 of 10 failure Governors are Democrats.



"Slowest"? How is that quantified? Especially considering many of those states were hit early and hardest, this doesn't really qualify as a legit stat.


I'd like to see how that is quantified as well.


nebish - 4/28/2020 at 02:30 AM

quote:
quote:
"brainwashing" idiots is a waste of time.
It implies an intellect which is obviously absent.


If you are not trying to brainwash us idiots, then who are you talking to here?

The logical answer is you are not talking to anyone here but are using this board to jam the web with disinfo that will come up in Google searches.


[Edited on 4/27/2020 by BrerRabbit]


If there were more of us that liked to talk about stuff it would be easier to ignore those who do not want constructive conversation. But when you have 6-10 people (if that many) who engage and a couple trouble makers, the trouble makers unfortunately are going to have influence on the threads.


nebish - 4/28/2020 at 02:45 AM

I have a good feeling about Ohio's guidelines released today.

First, Ohio has laid out how testing is going to triple over the next month. They have a plan for almost 1800 contract tracers. And Ohio has hospital capacity, plenty of it. PPE is not ideal, but good enough to allow non-overnight elective surgery. Businesses will be required to have employees where masks. General public strongly encouraged to do so, governor says they have no legal authority to mandate population wears masks. Phased in approach May 1, May 5 and then on so on with evaluation.

Ohio does have a good downward trajectory of cases, although not 14 days yet, we are at a week. Governor looks at 5 day average comparing daily totals to the 5 day average. Hospitalizations still flat.

I think it is time in Ohio. The opening is going to be slow unlike some other states. And Ohio has evidence of declining case count, unlike other states. Ohio has also identified companies within the state that are FDA approved to produce swabs and reagent to greatly expand testing over this upcoming month. Many people are not happy, some people, some Republicans want it all open now. Governor has compromised, taking a 'conservative' approach. He's going slow and cautious still. I think it is right.

There will be increase in cases. A relatively small percentage will seek medical care. There will be new testing and contact tracing. Businesses have a strict guidance or health department or when applicable law enforcement can be called to enforce.

We need to stop hiding from the virus and start dealing with it. I have worn a mask 4 times and gloves once out in public. People need to be responsible. We have to figure it out, it is still all uncharted territory. Be smart, be safe, even if you don't have it act like you do to protect everyone you encounter.


BIGV - 4/28/2020 at 03:08 AM

quote:
We need to stop hiding from the virus and start dealing with it.


X2


piacere - 4/28/2020 at 02:14 PM

quote:
quote:
We need to stop hiding from the virus and start dealing with it.


Just what are you saying here?


cyclone88 - 4/28/2020 at 02:41 PM

I've posed this question before in regard to jump-starting the economy, but now Trump is pushing school re-opening seemingly for its own sake. I don't have kids so am not directly affected. I just keep wondering what re-opening the schools at this late date accomplishes. Public schools have 4-6 more weeks at most after a re-open plan is devised. Re-opening requires a massive undertaking re staggering schedules, distancing, cleaning & disinfecting daily, & questions about cafeterias, auditoriums, etc. Students are probably going to be at all stages of learning, some having kept up w/online classes & some not & some in between. For seniors, some have already been told they've met requirements for graduation so further classroom instruction isn't needed. The big question is why expose these kids, teachers, administrators, & staff to each other who in turn, may expose their families.

Is this just optics? "Hey, look, the schools are open; we're back to normal" when we know testing isn't available for everyone in every state. How many households are going to depend on an 8 yr old's social distancing skills? Teachers can't police every kid every minute.

Is there some benefit that I'm missing (other than freeing up parents to possibly return to work)?


MartinD28 - 4/28/2020 at 03:26 PM

quote:
I've posed this question before in regard to jump-starting the economy, but now Trump is pushing school re-opening seemingly for its own sake. I don't have kids so am not directly affected. I just keep wondering what re-opening the schools at this late date accomplishes. Public schools have 4-6 more weeks at most after a re-open plan is devised. Re-opening requires a massive undertaking re staggering schedules, distancing, cleaning & disinfecting daily, & questions about cafeterias, auditoriums, etc. Students are probably going to be at all stages of learning, some having kept up w/online classes & some not & some in between. For seniors, some have already been told they've met requirements for graduation so further classroom instruction isn't needed. The big question is why expose these kids, teachers, administrators, & staff to each other who in turn, may expose their families.

Is this just optics? "Hey, look, the schools are open; we're back to normal" when we know testing isn't available for everyone in every state. How many households are going to depend on an 8 yr old's social distancing skills? Teachers can't police every kid every minute.

Is there some benefit that I'm missing (other than freeing up parents to possibly return to work)?


I think your question is the answer. Is there any doubt that almost everything Trump says or does is about optics for one person - himself? The safety factors and practical implications you listed are spot on. Returning kids to schools this late in the year is impractical and dangerous.


nebish - 4/28/2020 at 03:32 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
We need to stop hiding from the virus and start dealing with it.


Just what are you saying here?


Dealing was a bad word choice. I should've said living or adapting with it.

This virus is going to be with us this summer, this fall, next winter. Maybe there will be a vaccine, maybe there won't be. Antivirals, therapeutics, secondary uses of existing medicines...whatever they come up with until the medical researchers figure out how to treat this virus, we can't continue to hide from it and just wait it out.

There are lots of different things going on in lots of different states. I'm in Ohio. As I've said, I think some of these states are moving too fast and going too far off the bat. But I don't know all of their detail and data. I was a little worried when our Governor Mike Dewine said over a week ago that we would start opening up May 1 because the data at that time didn't support it. Since that time, our daily case count, and our rolling 5 day average case count is better. By and large Ohioans have done what was asked of us for 6 weeks. We've made progress great in limiting spread, building up resources and learned what precautions to take. I think for us, now is the right to time start trying to live with the threat of infection. There are parts of the Ohio economy that never stopped, construction for instance and welders/fabricators...3 of my good friends in these fields have been going to work every day, honestly they say their Monday - Friday lives aren't any different yet so many others are told to stay away, stay home, don't see anyone. It's time to loose it up for more activity in a responsible way.

Still limit gatherings, wear face coverings, no dining in restaurants, no bowling...this stuff is going to be gradual. You have to walk before you run. It's time to start walking a little. Like when you get injured, maybe you broke your ankle or something, you have to stay off it a while, then you can start on therapy. Maybe this is the therapy phase. There can be set backs, but the goal is to walk normally again. It takes a while to do that.

Other states may vary. But clearly, whether some states or some countries are ready for this or not, it is happening in one form or another. We need to adapt to living with this virus rather than avoiding any and all potential contact with society and life.


piacere - 4/28/2020 at 03:50 PM

Thanks for clarifying that with your first sentence. Had "dealing" remained, there are, as I'm sure you and everyone else here know, many messed up ways some people are "dealing" with this. Some are pretty sad.
Prior to the post from you that I quoted, I read about that nurse from NY Presbyterian Hospital in Manhattan, Lorna Breen, head of emergency department. Absolutely broke my heart. She couldn't deal with it...or live with it.

[Edited on 4/28/2020 by piacere]

[Edited on 4/28/2020 by piacere]


Bhawk - 4/28/2020 at 04:27 PM

As previously mentioned, I run Procurement for a major health system. I’ve never experienced anything like I have in my life like the last 6-8 weeks. I’d love to get a good night’s sleep sometime soon. It’s been one thing to read the news and another thing to be in the middle of it. The actual behind the scenes truth in regards to the involvement of states vs Feds has been fascinating and extremely frustrating.

Open back up? Sure. Give it a shot. Hope cases don’t skyrocket. The point of the lockdowns was to keep the burden off the healthcare system, a system that is in no way designed to handle a 1,000 sick people going to the ED at the same time.

In the end it doesn’t matter. Americans won’t listen anyway. There’s always going to be people ignoring the advice and if there’s a vaccine developed, there will be plenty that will refuse it.

I’ll say one thing for myself throughout all this...my view of the political paradigm has been permanently altered.


Rusty - 4/28/2020 at 04:35 PM

Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.


nebish - 4/28/2020 at 05:04 PM

quote:
Thanks for clarifying that with your first sentence. Had "dealing" remained, there are, as I'm sure you and everyone else here know, many messed up ways some people are "dealing" with this. Some are pretty sad.
Prior to the post from you that I quoted, I read about that nurse from NY Presbyterian Hospital in Manhattan, Lorna Breen, head of emergency department. Absolutely broke my heart. She couldn't deal with it...or live with it.

[Edited on 4/28/2020 by piacere]

[Edited on 4/28/2020 by piacere]


Yes, I do understand how that may've come across and that was not how I intended it.

Dr Lorna Breen is just so tragic. It is like war, health care employees and doctors are on the front lines. And many are and will experience PTSD, some forever unfortunately.

There are friends in health care among our forum. Some have friends or family that are doctors or nurses or aids, administrators. My sister-in-law is a nurse. I haven't had much chance to talk to her. Just normal people asked to do extraordinary things - and many places are just pressure packed, no relief, they take it home with them.

To Bhawk's point, the stay at home was to not exceed or overwhelm hospitals and in most places it has worked. Still has been a personal cost and burden for those who have had to help those who are sick. It is also why you can't just throw it all open now without precautions because that would negate the work that has been done and continue to wear on those that have already been stretched thin or exceed their ability to keep dealing with it all.

I see people on the beaches in California or Florida and it makes me mad. Everyone has a responsibility, but not everyone sees it that way. You can't get everyone to think the same. Maybe these local authorities that control the public beaches need to restrict access. There are parking lots and beach access that could be monitored, maybe you close parking lots, implement a shuttle program, do a head count for those entering the beach and close it when a certain number is listed. I don't know, our state doesn't have that problem.

If we do it right, we can relax some of our restrictions, open some businesses and still not overwhelm the hospitals. There certainly is going to still be a demand on those facilities and those people to treat new cases. I think it is about trying to manage the new cases all while relaxing restrictions. It is a balance. Since so many people never agree on how to do things I'm sure we'll probably fvck it up and make things worse. But really, it doesn't have to be that way. I'll do my part, what other people is out of my control. Governors and authorities can't be expected to keep a lid on this forever, or even much longer. More and more people are going to disobey after so long. If they can relax now there's a chance to still get people to listen. If people are just kept shuttered in longer and longer I see people just starting to do whatever they want when they want. This is just my point of view, the people I know are still willing to follow guidelines, but we can't keep doing everything we've been doing. If my state were still at peak or increasing cases, I would agree the timing is wrong. Eventually you get to a point where you have to try it, some will make the right call and some might make the wrong ones. You can't always know what is right or wrong until after you do it.


[Edited on 4/28/2020 by nebish]


MartinD28 - 4/28/2020 at 05:41 PM

quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.




100% on point!


piacere - 4/28/2020 at 06:32 PM

quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.




Yeah. I sometimes wonder if, because we're bombarded with numbers, we get desensitized and numb to the story behind the numbers. Occasionally one grabs you by the throat, Sandy Hook for example, that one hurt us all but generally, let's face it, we've got things to do (sarcasm intended). This woman though, this one knocked the stuffing out of me. Like you said, the park? the beach? a concert? You gotta be kidding me.


gina - 4/28/2020 at 09:49 PM

quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.




It's a war time stress level situation. She reportedly told her family patients would die in the ambulances before they even got into the E.R. Doctors like everyone else have certain expectations, they want to help people and save people, when they can't the result is stress and conflict. In a war zone there's no time to deal with your emotions, you just have to function. It's sad and tragic what happened to her.

Anyone else in a situation like that should walk away. Quit the job. Get sleep, eat right and look at other options for work.

I worked in the 168th Street hospital for 5 years. Management changes, budget cuts because of federal Medicaid cuts, layoffs, 1199 contract crises, capital budget expenditures freezes when o.r. equipment was needed etc.etc. Two years after I was on the verge of 3 new ulcers, I left. It was a beautiful day, I felt good and I knew if I remained there I would be over-extended trying to fix a program that needed fixing or help with a new program startup. I finally realized I did enough and I was not sacrificing my health anymore for any programs or people. I did work in another hospital for 2 years and then left to pursue private sector work.

People can get so caught up in their jobs, it can be bad for them. You have to work to live, but living making work the most important thing in your life is not right. Doctors are God's hands but they are not God. He decides who lives and who dies and when and how. When Doctors see patients recover they get a sense that they saved them. In a crisis when so many die, this takes a heavy toll on them.

The hospitals need to stop demanding crisis ridden Doctors and Nurses work too many hours. An average nurse is working 12 hrs. On. I know one who works 3 twelve hour days back to back on a covid unit. If I were running it I would say no more than 9 hours five days a week and they must take a lunch break. Hospitals have to stop treating their Doctors and Nurses like horses in a race, just whip them and they'll do more.

There will be more waves of Covid-19. One researcher said 3 more waves. In a 24 hour day there should be 3 Doctors and 3 nurses for a 24 shift. Start there, then work on the rest of it. I cannot even imagine what the resident- Doctors are going thru.









[Edited on 4/28/2020 by gina]


Rusty - 4/28/2020 at 10:30 PM

Doctors in places like New York City ... and Albany, GA are basically attempting to make "human levees" of themselves - trying to hold back billions and billions of gallons of rushing flood waters in the form of coronavirus patients. The current situation makes the military war-time madness (depicted in films like MASH) seem like a tea party at times.

Gina - good on you for years of service towards others! Walking away seems like a plan. I'll never second-guess any medical professional who says that they feel stress.


cyclone88 - 4/29/2020 at 12:58 AM

quote:
quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.


100% on point!


Meanwhile, Pence is wandering around Mayo without a mask even though it's his administration's guidelines & Mayo's hospital policy - talking to doctors & elbow bumping a patient giving plasma. Why isn't he distancing & wearing a mask? Because he's the VP & gets tested regularly. Huh? What's the downside of wearing one? What about lead by example? What if he contracted the virus after his last test? Mayo offered him one & he said no, thanks.


Rusty - 4/29/2020 at 03:30 PM

Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE. Something neither he nor his boss is very big on. Of course, Pence obviously opts for a mask that covers the entire face - including eyes. I suppose it would've been difficult for folks to be inspired if they couldn't see his face.


cyclone88 - 4/29/2020 at 03:39 PM

quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.


For an administration focused on optics, this was a chance for the VP/COVID19 Task Force Director to wear a mask according to the administration's own guidelines plus the hospital's policy & practice distancing. There's no downside at all. It's not like they couldn't use some good PR about now.


OriginalGoober - 4/29/2020 at 03:56 PM

quote:
quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.


For an administration focused on optics, this was a chance for the VP/COVID19 Task Force Director to wear a mask according to the administration's own guidelines plus the hospital's policy & practice distancing. There's no downside at all. It's not like they couldn't use some good PR about now.


Its no different from Obama visiting the Gulf beaches swept clean of tar balls during the BP Oil spill crisis. Its about optics. Obama's gang wanted the public to believe that things weren't so bad. I guess the same applies here. instead of tar balls its covid patients.


PhotoRon286 - 4/29/2020 at 04:08 PM

quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.




My son is an EMT in Syracuse.

He left yesterday morning for a three week assignment in NYC.

I hope he survives this and doesn't get a case of PTSD like his disabled veteran sister.


PhotoRon286 - 4/29/2020 at 04:11 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.


For an administration focused on optics, this was a chance for the VP/COVID19 Task Force Director to wear a mask according to the administration's own guidelines plus the hospital's policy & practice distancing. There's no downside at all. It's not like they couldn't use some good PR about now.


Its no different from Obama visiting the Gulf beaches swept clean of tar balls during the BP Oil spill crisis. Its about optics. Obama's gang wanted the public to believe that things weren't so bad. I guess the same applies here. instead of tar balls its covid patients.


But Obama.

Classic.


BIGV - 4/29/2020 at 04:43 PM

quote:
But Obama.

Classic.


And hilarious!..Simply because it is no different than the little club here that takes every opportunity and then some to turn everything into a "But Trump" response.

But still classic.


Rusty - 4/29/2020 at 05:11 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.


For an administration focused on optics, this was a chance for the VP/COVID19 Task Force Director to wear a mask according to the administration's own guidelines plus the hospital's policy & practice distancing. There's no downside at all. It's not like they couldn't use some good PR about now.


Its no different from Obama visiting the Gulf beaches swept clean of tar balls during the BP Oil spill crisis. Its about optics. Obama's gang wanted the public to believe that things weren't so bad. I guess the same applies here. instead of tar balls its covid patients.


Apples and ... fuel pumps! We are in a situation where EVERY American should be observing extreme sanitary practices. The tar balls were (and still are!) a nasty problem. But I haven't heard of anybody accidentally inhaling one or anything. I do not think that a mask would've been of much use.

Part of the "magic" of the Coronavirus is its ability to go unrecognized during the initial stages. From my understanding (and I've read VOLUMES on this), it is during this early, unrecognizable stage that the virus is most contagious. In my mind, Pence screwed the pooch on this one.

If Obama was trying to illustrate (or just suggest) that the coast was clear or not is one thing (and I am not saying that he was right or wrong). One thing that we KNOW right now about the Coronavirus is that the coast is most certainly NOT clear! This virus is still very much a live and hungry wild beast looking to feed!
Pence should really be working hard to drive that point home.


BIGV - 4/29/2020 at 05:18 PM

quote:
We are in a situation where EVERY American should be observing extreme sanitary practices.


Certainly. Wash your hands with hot water Check. Social distancing. Check.

Masks?.... Up to the individual


Stephen - 4/29/2020 at 05:28 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.





Its no different from Obama visiting the Gulf beaches swept clean of tar balls during the BP Oil spill crisis. Its about optics. Obama's gang wanted the public to believe that things weren't so bad. I guess the same applies here. instead of tar balls its covid patients.


Apples and ... fuel pumps! We are in a situation where EVERY American should be observing extreme sanitary practices. The tar balls were (and still are!) a nasty problem. But I haven't heard of anybody accidentally inhaling one or anything. I do not think that a mask would've been of much use.

Part of the "magic" of the Coronavirus is its ability to go unrecognized during the initial stages. From my understanding (and I've read VOLUMES on this), it is during this early, unrecognizable stage that the virus is most contagious.


Yes - it’s very much like cancer in that respect - there is no telling & we just don’t know where & how it originates -
Have seen those tar balls b4, they are yicky alright & smelled bad too as I recall



cyclone88 - 4/29/2020 at 07:06 PM

quote:
[you can't be serious. we know the spread of the virus comes from close contact with other people. it's this type of stupidity that hurts America.


It's this lack of leadership that hurts America. The Director of the US COVID-19 Task Force flaunting the policy of the hospital in which he was visiting is not ok. Mayo tweeted that they gave him a mask; he declined. No mask. No social distancing. Contact - elbow bump. What kind of message does that send to an already-confused public?

The knee jerk reaction to defend EVERYTHING no matter how heinous or ignorant or mistaken it is makes us unnecessarily divided. We are all equally vulnerable to COVID-19. We should unanimously say "Don't drink bleach" and "Follow the guidelines of the hospital you're in." How hard is that? What's wrong w/that? Why can't we collectively agree that some actions are just wrong? It has zero to do w/politics.

I posted the lack of a mask in response to the discussion of the doctor who worked in NYC's ER, contracted the virus & survived, went back to work & it was too much, & committed suicide. There are medical professionals & hospital staff risking their lives (& sanity) fighting this. Imagine how Dr. Breen's colleagues would feel if Pence was strolling around that hospital w/o a mask, not distancing, & elbow bumping plasma donors? Anyone knows if Mayo staff has been sickened or worse?

It's callous & disrespectful to members of the forum who are either working in hospitals themselves, have family members who do so, or working to supply hospitals w/adequate resources for patients & staff.

No part of this post is directed to the troll. It's directed to anyone who can't just once look at something objectively.


Rusty - 4/29/2020 at 07:23 PM

Total aside: who taught Pence how to "elbow bump"? Left arm -to-right arm results in the same effect as offering your left hand to someone offering their right in a handshake. It just looked goofy!


BIGV - 4/29/2020 at 07:29 PM

quote:
It's up to the law at the end of the day


Which or what Law are you referencing?


stormyrider - 4/29/2020 at 08:01 PM

If hospital policy is that everyone should wear a mask, then everyone should wear a mask.
Especially the VP

it's not like Mayo Clinic is a 2 bit operation

The VP is essentially saying to one of the leading institutions in the WORLD that either I am above your policy or I disagree with your policy or your policy is foolish.
It's not like Pence went to med school


stormyrider - 4/30/2020 at 12:57 AM

How about shut your god damned mouth and listen to the Health Care Professionals


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 01:04 AM

quote:
If hospital policy is that everyone should wear a mask, then everyone should wear a mask.
Especially the VP


Courtesy to the Hospital and its staff aside and respect given to their gallant efforts, would you take a moment to explain the difference between "Policy" & "Law"?

Thanks in advance


piacere - 4/30/2020 at 01:07 AM

quote:
The lefties are all concerned about the petty while VP Pence is working to solve the problem.

Not one the lefties offers any solutions or supports anything that can help.





Yeah, good ol' Doctor Pence. Guy's a genius.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 02:18 AM

quote:
quote:
How about shut your god damned mouth and listen to the Health Care Professionals



Having a hard time accepting that the lefties are all about the petty and President Trump and Vice President Pence are getting the job done?

Get over it.





NOBODY LIKES YOU, YOU ADD NOTHING - GO AWAY.

go make your lefty - rightyy argument somewhere else


cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 12:28 PM

COVID-19 is killing people all over the globe from China to Sweden to the US. Everyone on the planet is vulnerable.

There are doctors, scientists, & other experts who are putting their expertise to work to find a treatment, a vaccine, fast diagnostic tests, & reliable antibody tests. There are medical professionals who are treating patients all over the world. They are communists, socialists, capitalists, monarchists, & apolitical. The form of government of their country & their personal political opinions are irrelevant. They're working independently & sharing their findings to fight the pandemic & treat the sick. It's preposterous for posters to clutter up discussions w/references to a "left" or "right" label to those experts working overtime to save their sorry asses. COVID-19 doesn't distinguish between nations & certainly not American political parties. Get woke.


Rusty - 4/30/2020 at 01:11 PM

Obstinance. Several sufferers of this sometimes lethal affliction here among us.

Out of concern for the ENTIRE PUBLIC - health officials (government or otherwise) put measures into place that were designed to minimize the spread of a DEADLY freakin' virus. But there are some who insist on stretching, bending or outright breaking these "rules" (rules - enacting laws would take too long) of protection. For what reason? Oh, yeah - the (apparent) Constitutional right to spread ones illness.

Yeah - it's called obstinance. We've got several candidates for poster child here among us.

Just do the world a favor and sign a waiver for a ventilator for when your number gets called.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 01:50 PM

With the masks or face coverings, I see it as a respect for others thing, a courtesy.

Ohio will mandate that businesses about to open, and the ones that have been open, must have their employees wear face masks (although there are some specific exceptions). He first said everyone must wear a face covering, but then came back and said customers aren't required to wear one instead saying it is simply strongly encouraged.

So I see it two-fold, if the employees going to work have to wear one, I'm going to wear one when I'm in their store. And...I don't know if I might have it sometimes, they don't know if I have it, so you wear the mask out of an abundance of caution and courtesy for people around you.

Stuff is weird right now, we just have to get through it.



cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 02:30 PM

quote:
Stuff is weird right now, we just have to get through it.


What we don't have to "get through" is the labeling by trolls & posters of anyone outside the world of this board. I'm insulted by being labeled myself & just ignore them. I'm more than what some forum poster who's never met thinks I am.

Nebish, you're a reasonable guy. Masks, social distancing, no contact aren't "courtesies." Some are mandated, some are voluntary, & some are the policy of institutions/businesses. When the Mayo Clinic - ranked the #1 hospital in the US by medical & watchdog organizations, says masks, social distancing, & no contact is THEIR HOSPITAL's policy, DO IT.

Forget that Pence is VP. He's the Director of the US COVID-19 Task Force designated by the president himself. He has an obligation to provide Americans w/leadership. That means following the hospital policy of American's #1 hospital administration, especially when he appears on camera. Otherwise, he looks like he's above the virus, other humans, & certainly mere medical experts. He also looks just plain stupid. His response as to why he didn't wear one - that he is VP of the US & gets tested regularly - was even more stupid. As director of the task force who meets Fauci/Birx et al every day, he should know the basics - people can be asymptomatic & have the virus, there are false negatives, people w/COVID-19 can get it again, & no one of any age, race, gender, or nationally is immune.

I saw the clip as it happened on mute so I wasn't influenced by any reporter narrative. I'm an adult. I've been paying attention. His lack of mask & other actions were so incongruous w/what anyone else was doing, it stood out. I then got phone calls from friends & colleagues in Europe who actually asked if Trump's sanity had tipped if he was advising experts to test bleach & light injections on patients & his back-up man is clueless.

So, as thoughtful as most of your posts are, I disagree w/you on this one. What ordinary citizens do is their business & if they want to go against a hospital policy, they will be denied admittance. Our leadership owes us more.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 02:38 PM

Pence should've worn a mask.

I was talking about myself and what I do, how I look at my actions towards others.


cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 03:04 PM

quote:
Pence should've worn a mask.

I was talking about myself and what I do, how I look at my actions towards others.


But it's not a courtesy. It may not even be your call. Depending upon where you are, it can be anything from an entry requirement to local mandate.


Brucebcd - 4/30/2020 at 03:07 PM

Researchers at the Woodstock Institute have reversed an earlier recomndation. Their new stance, “Go ahead and take that brown acid, its worth a try”. Thus a possible end to this global pandemic...


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 03:56 PM

Bruce! Wow it’s been a while eh?

Cyclone, I am talking about where I am.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 04:04 PM

I went into Ace Hardware this week. I wore a mask. I was the only person in there to have one on out of 4 employees and two other customers. Maybe the mask helps me a little, but really it helps them, I wore it so other people would feel more comfortable around me.

Soon here, those Ace workers are going to have to wear a mask too or some kind of face covering. So if they have to I think I should too, we’re in this together.

Our Governor felt requiring customers to wear one was problematic. I would’ve rather he just mandated it. Sure some people wouldn’t have done it, I think most would’ve. It wouldn’t be enforceable and businesses were concerned about enforcement. I think it sends a wrong message to say it’s important for employees to wear a mask, but not customers.

In the end, with asymptomatic spread I think me wearing a mask makes others feel more comfortable. And it’s like, you’re doing it, I’ll do it to.

This is me in my area. I’m not talking about Mayo or some other state or location.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 04:08 PM

quote:
quote:
Pence should've worn a mask.

I was talking about myself and what I do, how I look at my actions towards others.


But it's not a courtesy. It may not even be your call. Depending upon where you are, it can be anything from an entry requirement to local mandate.


What LAW is that?


Rusty - 4/30/2020 at 04:13 PM

How about wearing masks as a gesture of courtesy and respect to all the over-worked hospital staffs in the country? They've literally got bodies piling up, they're running out of masks and other supplies and some are even committing job stress-related suicide. Could you at least consider giving these folks a break? I mean, if it doesn't wreck all your constitutional rights and stuff.


Brendan - 4/30/2020 at 04:15 PM

Cyclone88, thanks for your numerous posts on this. Really well thought out, common sense stuff that applies to everyone. All very well said.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 04:22 PM

quote:
How about wearing masks as a gesture of courtesy and respect to all the over-worked hospital staffs in the country? They've literally got bodies piling up, they're running out of masks and other supplies and some are even committing job stress-related suicide. Could you at least consider giving these folks a break? I mean, if it doesn't wreck all your constitutional rights and stuff.

"
See, that is all fine and dandy, using the phrase. "courtesy and respect"....but if I choose not to because of whatever reason and whatever the consequences are of people needing to label my choice...What LAW are they going to enforce to make me?

quote:
I mean, if it doesn't wreck all your constitutional rights and stuff.


"and stuff" ....See, my belief is that if you really feel tis way, you, are part of the problem


Rusty - 4/30/2020 at 04:29 PM

"Stuff" - because you keep asking about a particular LAW regarding wearing masks -as requested and suggested by people like SCIENTISTS, shop owners, fellow human beings ... and stuff. Do you even know how a LAW becomes such? Do you understand the process and the TIME that it takes to get legislation in place? By the time an actual LAW could be enacted, we could lose great numbers of people (taxpayers ... and stuff).

Just sign that ventilator waiver!


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 04:35 PM

quote:
"Stuff" - because you keep asking about a particular LAW regarding wearing masks -as requested and suggested by people like SCIENTISTS, shop owners, fellow human beings ... and stuff. Do you even know how a LAW becomes such? Do you understand the process and the TIME that it takes to get legislation in place? By the time an actual LAW could be enacted, we could lose great numbers of people (taxpayers ... and stuff).

Just sign that ventilator waiver!


Yes, I do understand, thank you! I will wear a mask when I see fit, not because it is a courtesy, not because I've been told, or it has been mandated or requested.

You do you and I will do me.


cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 04:51 PM

quote:
Cyclone88, thanks for your numerous posts on this.

I didn't intend to be a crusader, but labeling the acts of wearing masks, social distancing, & contact as "left/right" when it's a worldwide health issue is ludicrous. My comments started w/Pence - not in his position as VP but as the leader of the US COVID-19 Task Force - rejecting the policy of the #1 US hospital administration. I don't care what political party he is. Right now, he represents the US response to COVID-19 & he defied the hospital's well thought out policy. Hearing from Mayo that he refused a mask he was given is incredible to me. The refusal to distance & elbow bumping a plasma donor surpass incredulity.

Liberal-shaming people who're complying w/guidelines & policies is counter-productive to mitigating a deadly virus.


Brucebcd - 4/30/2020 at 05:40 PM

It all seems like a catch-22, the longer you shelter in place, the longer you need to shelter in place. May not be true, but certainly has that feel to it.
As far as essential workers go, maybe Friday and Saturday nights Bars, Casinos and Stripclubs are open, and grocery stores close? Just a thought. As a great philosopher once said “Unless they are paying your nut, no one has the right to tell you how to make a living”. That philosopher of course, Christopher Moltisanti.
This is a geezer disease, 3 out of 4 fatalities are over the age of 65. If you’re under 40 the odds of dying are extremely small. So, the older you get, the closer you are to dying. Nothing new. Is it wise to shut down the workforce (65 and under), to protect those over 65? Are we doing the senior citizens any favor by slowing the spread? I understand keeping things tightly wrapped until hospital capacity is brought up, but keeping economy wrapped after that? Officials have some ‘splaining to do. Certainly in favor of extra money being spent on nursing homes. But in general, I think us geezers can fend for ourselves. We need the younger generation out there making some bucks so they can pay our social security checks.... We all know how that works, right?


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 06:01 PM

quote:
So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.


Interesting theory and attempt at making it seem as though it has already been accepted in the annals of time as being the right thing to do.

"The World Health Organization and the CDC have repeatedly said that most people do not need to wear masks unless they are sick and coughing."

I believe this falls under the guise and sheep mentality thought process that "Doing something, is better than doing nothing".....

Have you seen that person, driving in a car by themselves, wearing a mask? I think there are an equal amount of examples of people reacting solely because of the immense amount of time they are spending in front of their TVs reacting to the fear being sold by the media.

Follow the money.


piacere - 4/30/2020 at 06:14 PM

quote:
It all seems like a catch-22, the longer you shelter in place, the longer you need to shelter in place. May not be true, but certainly has that feel to it.
As far as essential workers go, maybe Friday and Saturday nights Bars, Casinos and Stripclubs are open, and grocery stores close? Just a thought. As a great philosopher once said “Unless they are paying your nut, no one has the right to tell you how to make a living”. That philosopher of course, Christopher Moltisanti.
This is a geezer disease, 3 out of 4 fatalities are over the age of 65. If you’re under 40 the odds of dying are extremely small. So, the older you get, the closer you are to dying. Nothing new. Is it wise to shut down the workforce (65 and under), to protect those over 65? Are we doing the senior citizens any favor by slowing the spread? I understand keeping things tightly wrapped until hospital capacity is brought up, but keeping economy wrapped after that? Officials have some ‘splaining to do. Certainly in favor of extra money being spent on nursing homes. But in general, I think us geezers can fend for ourselves. We need the younger generation out there making some bucks so they can pay our social security checks.... We all know how that works, right?


One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.


Jerry - 4/30/2020 at 06:17 PM

quote:
Researchers at the Woodstock Institute have reversed an earlier recomndation. Their new stance, “Go ahead and take that brown acid, its worth a try”. Thus a possible end to this global pandemic...


They found out that it's just brown sugar and cinnamon paste.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 06:55 PM

quote:
quote:
Interesting theory and attempt at making it seem as though it has already been accepted in the annals of time as being the right thing to do.


Unk say: "Ana wana kava pipi". It took thousands of years for loin covering to be recognized as common sense.


"Common sense" or socially unacceptable?


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 07:17 PM

quote:
Thought experiment: Given your resistance-based outlook, back in the mid-1800s when germ theory was developing, would you have been interested at all or would you have rejected it automatically?

Times change, personality types do not .


Haha! "resistance-based outlook"....

Would all people have worn face masks everywhere in the 1800's?


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 07:36 PM

quote:
Would you have been part of the "drag population" laughing at handwashing in 1867? Surely you know yourself well enough to know which type of reaction you would have experienced in any era given your present mindset.


Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so with no definitive proof that it is helping. I can not speak to the mores of what people believed in 1867 anymore than you can.


cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 07:39 PM

quote:
So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.

I don't care about the slowcoaches's positions. They can do whatever they want & accept the consequences to themselves & others. I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 07:50 PM

quote:
quote:
So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.

I don't care about the slowcoaches's positions. They can do whatever they want & accept the consequences to themselves & others. I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst.


I am curious as to why you've labeled it as "Liberal shaming"?


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 07:56 PM

quote:
You're asking me?


I was not.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 08:16 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .

quote:
quote:
You're asking me?


quote:
I was not.




Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?


It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?

"Liberal shaming"?


OriginalGoober - 4/30/2020 at 08:16 PM



I'm guessing this protester is almost out of smoke and not looking forward to resin hits.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 10:40 PM

quote:
One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.


Is that how you greet a member we haven't seen for 5 years?


piacere - 4/30/2020 at 11:49 PM

quote:
quote:
One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.


Is that how you greet a member we haven't seen for 5 years?


Is that what a member who hasn't been here for five years posts upon his return?

OK, fine. Welcome back Bruce. My 90+ year old family members, affectionately referred to as "geezers", sure are glad about your return

Better?


Jerry - 5/1/2020 at 12:03 AM

quote:
Have you seen that person, driving in a car by themselves, wearing a mask?
Follow the money.


To all y'all, QUIT STARING AT ME.


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 12:19 AM

quote:
I am sure it makes their day when you glare and stare in judgement of the sheeple at the red light stop.


Yep, that's what I was doing alright.....Glancing and noticing is now equated with...."Staring in Judgement".....

quote:
So cut the "persecuted minority" act. You are the majority.


In choosing to not wear a mask?...Whad'ya know about that!....LOL, I have never claimed to be part of a "persecuted minority" and just because you have applied a label, does not make it so. Just chuckling over the amount of people who've forgotten how to think for themselves...


piacere - 5/1/2020 at 12:20 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .

quote:
quote:
You're asking me?


quote:
I was not.




Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?


It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?

"Liberal shaming"?


Bill Maher, YouTube. Liberal shaming. You'll love it.


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 12:36 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .

quote:
quote:
You're asking me?


quote:
I was not.




Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?


It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?

"Liberal shaming"?


Bill Maher, YouTube. Liberal shaming. You'll love it.


Looked. I see fat shaming and people who are ashamed to be white, but no "Liberal shaming" videos


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 12:38 AM

quote:
quote:
. . .chuckling over the amount of people who've forgotten how to think for themselves...


How do you know they are not thinking for themselves?


I don't. Just a guess based on the populace's current skill set at "follow the leader"


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 01:20 AM

quote:
quote:
Just a guess based on the populace's current skill set at "follow the leader"


In a word - prejudice.


Your definition not mine and yes... I am getting used to your having to label everything.


porkchopbob - 5/1/2020 at 12:30 PM

quote:
Would all people have worn face masks everywhere in the 1800's?

Well, some doctors in Europe did, though styles have certainly changed.


nebish - 5/1/2020 at 02:54 PM

To wrap up my feelings on the masks, if that is what we should do in order to start coming out of our shells and open businesses then I'm fine with that. All other issues and concerns noted.

Ohio is extending the stay at home order until the end of May. As businesses open, there will be exceptions for activity related to those businesses. Today we have medical facilities and offices, veterinary places and dentists opening. May 4th distribution centers, manufacturing and construction that may've been closed or halted can resume. Same with general office locations. May 12th retail can open. Exceptions will be allowed for those on top of the already allowed exceptions for essential workers and essential needs plus exercise allowance.

I'm fine with a slow approach to reopen businesses with the precautions that are being put into place. But at this point, what does stay home mean now anyway? They want to keep people from congregating in parks and playing sports with close physical contact...that's fine. Hospitals and long term care and prisons are going to restrict visitation regardless of a stay at home order. I feel like those things can, and are addressed on their own without this broad stay at home order all while less and less people are going to be staying at home this month as they open businesses.

It makes me think of a seat belt sign on the airplane. I heard a pilot describe it once like this - you have to take the seat belt sign off occasionally because if you leave it on too long people are going to ignore it and get up and move around with the sign on. So you take it off every now and then and then put it back on and people are more likely to follow it.

There's going to be so many exceptions in it now, really it's going to get where the exception is staying at home.

More and more people have started to tune Dewine out. I guess I'm falling into that camp now. You tell people to stay at home all while activity is going to be increasing in the state this month...really the stay at home order is going to apply to fewer and fewer people in the coming days and weeks. It's run it's course and essentially become meaningless.


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 03:03 PM

quote:
A simple objective observation, no more, no less. Prejudice means to pre-judge. When you assume someone driving with a mask on is a sheeple not thinking for his or her self that is a pre-judgement.

Calling people sheep is bigotry.

[Edited on 5/1/2020 by BrerRabbit]
0

Here we go again, you with your need to label and help others understand what they really mean when they post things you disagree with. Maybe you can once again explain how California is really operating Concentration camps at the border?

Thanks in advance


Stephen - 5/1/2020 at 10:57 PM

It’s About Time - thank you Mr McConnell
“The Country Needs Sports”

“We’ve all missed that during the pandemic, and the sooner we can get at least some of our sports - and I think the one eligible to begin first would be baseball - it would be a great morale booster for the country & an indication that we’re going to begin to get back to normal”

I don’t see how anyone could disagree
We’ve done our part, now it’s time to have our lives back
It will be downright lunacy not to have hoop/puck seasons - have conceded no baseball, but if there’s been no change in this thing by say summer, the only change is to give normal life a go again

Sports is the way to start the process of opening up America again!

[Edited on 5/1/2020 by Stephen]


nebish - 5/1/2020 at 11:56 PM

"now it's time to have our lives back"

It's important that we don't negate everything we have done and every sacrifice people have made up to this point, or it was all for nothing. Everyone wants to be back, and I want to get on the road to recovery. We're going to walk before we run. A lot of people are going to throw caution to the wind, but most people I believe will be responsible. We have to trust people with some judgement. Not everyone is going to be careful, some people will be extra careful. We can't make everyone do the same thing. Like I said, we'll get what we get out of it. If more of us act appropriately than otherwise we can get through this and continue with further openings and relaxing. One step at a time.


Rusty - 5/2/2020 at 01:55 PM

My statement is as apolitical as I can make it: We're not ready. Georgia Governor Simp is pretty much forcing this on our state. Restaurateurs from Atlanta to Savannah are advising so.

I know everybody is in a hurry for our lives to get back to normal, but the measures that are in place (self-quarantine, 6' social distancing and (for now ... maybe a little longer) no congregating in public ARE WORKING! As bad as this sucks, I firmly believe we need another few weeks (at least) of this.

I predicted weeks ago - and have since been "agreed with" by Dr. Birx - we are going to experience a new spike that will likely cause the shutdown of stores and malls - and overload the livin' $hit out of "on-line" establishments - that will likely result in another economy crash due to THE LOSS OF CHRISTMAS/HOLIDAY RETAIL. You have no idea how much I'd love to be wrong on this.


StratDal - 5/2/2020 at 04:22 PM

quote:
"now it's time to have our lives back"

It's important that we don't negate everything we have done and every sacrifice people have made up to this point, or it was all for nothing. Everyone wants to be back, and I want to get on the road to recovery. We're going to walk before we run. A lot of people are going to throw caution to the wind, but most people I believe will be responsible. We have to trust people with some judgement. Not everyone is going to be careful, some people will be extra careful. We can't make everyone do the same thing. Like I said, we'll get what we get out of it. If more of us act appropriately than otherwise we can get through this and continue with further openings and relaxing. One step at a time.


+1 Well said Nebish. Agree with your mask take on your other recent post.


Stephen - 5/2/2020 at 07:12 PM

An ESPN analysis predicted that
“The sudden disappearance of sports will cost $12 billion in revenue and hundreds of thousands of jobs, an economic catastrophe that could more than double if the college & NFL schedules are shut down this fall”

& that’s just in sports - so that’s the other very upsetting part of the virus -
We’re walking w/eyes wide open into an abyss of economic disaster worse than the Great Depression


[Edited on 5/2/2020 by Stephen]


Rusty - 5/2/2020 at 07:34 PM

Just back from a beach drive-by.

Despite the signage on the causeway that reads (in English): BEACHES OPEN FOR EXERCISE ONLY. NO CHAIRS, COOLERS. TENTS OR TABLES ... the beach is packed with "tourons" doing these and other activities. A drive through the village (area with pier, restaurants, bars etc) revealed more tourons lined up tightly to enter establishments that are now open for business as per our Unstable Genius Governor.

I'd bet a testicle that most of these tourons are the very folks who were stating that this virus was nothing more than the flu several weeks ago.

I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.

Any takers? I've only got two testicles!


MartinD28 - 5/2/2020 at 08:27 PM

quote:
Just back from a beach drive-by.

Despite the signage on the causeway that reads (in English): BEACHES OPEN FOR EXERCISE ONLY. NO CHAIRS, COOLERS. TENTS OR TABLES ... the beach is packed with "tourons" doing these and other activities. A drive through the village (area with pier, restaurants, bars etc) revealed more tourons lined up tightly to enter establishments that are now open for business as per our Unstable Genius Governor.

I'd bet a testicle that most of these tourons are the very folks who were stating that this virus was nothing more than the flu several weeks ago.

I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.

Any takers? I've only got two testicles!

This shouldn't surprise anyone. These are the people that rank their "freedoms", economy, and health in that order. That's assuming they even think instead of just act or react. No doubt some of these will learn that a few minutes in the sun didn't reward them well if they contract Covid. One person in a crowd can do significant damage to many.

Have the GA numbers met the prez's 14 day guidelines?

It will be an interesting observation to see how the numbers play out in the next several weeks as more & more people come out. I hope the numbers drop, but would it surprise anyone if there is cause and effect of more cases and death? It's a hard price to pay. The good doctors say what they do for a reason. Trump and governors say what they do for a different reason.




BIGV - 5/2/2020 at 08:48 PM

quote:
I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.


Good luck with any lawsuit filed against any business where the core is "not enough steps were taken to protect them."..Dining out is a choice and diners should be well aware of the risks after 75 days of the media bombarding them with the death tolls.


Fujirich - 5/2/2020 at 10:01 PM

All this hand wringing and fear about getting the virus, spreading the virus, keeping the country shut down, waiting for a cure, etc. will almost certainly be seen in hindsight as one of the stupidest reactions mankind has ever had to a threat. We've let fear overcome reason, and we over-reacted to something that is turning out to be no worse for the majority than an average seasonal flu. While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu. The difference this time is that our insane over-reaction by shutting down most of the world's economy will have more devastating impact to the lives and well being of far more people than the actual illness itself.

quote:
The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation

The tragedy of the COVID-19 pandemic appears to be entering the containment phase. Tens of thousands of Americans have died, and Americans are now desperate for sensible policymakers who have the courage to ignore the panic and rely on facts. Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function.

Five key facts are being ignored by those calling for continuing the near-total lockdown.

Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19.

The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies.

In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 10 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000.

Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.

Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding.

We can learn about hospital utilization from data from New York City, the hotbed of COVID-19 with more than 34,600 hospitalizations to date. For those under 18 years of age, hospitalization from the virus is 0.01 percent, or 11 per 100,000 people; for those 18 to 44 years old, hospitalization is 0.1 percent. Even for people ages 65 to 74, only 1.7 percent were hospitalized. Of 4,103 confirmed COVID-19 patients with symptoms bad enough to seek medical care, Dr. Leora Horwitz of NYU Medical Center concluded "age is far and away the strongest risk factor for hospitalization." Even early WHO reports noted that 80 percent of all cases were mild, and more recent studies show a far more widespread rate of infection and lower rate of serious illness. Half of all people testing positive for infection have no symptoms at all. The vast majority of younger, otherwise healthy people do not need significant medical care if they catch this infection.

Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem.

We know from decades of medical science that infection itself allows people to generate an immune response — antibodies — so that the infection is controlled throughout the population by “herd immunity.” Indeed, that is the main purpose of widespread immunization in other viral diseases — to assist with population immunity. In this virus, we know that medical care is not even necessary for the vast majority of people who are infected. It is so mild that half of infected people are asymptomatic, shown in early data from the Diamond Princess ship, and then in Iceland and Italy. That has been falsely portrayed as a problem requiring mass isolation. In fact, infected people without severe illness are the immediately available vehicle for establishing widespread immunity. By transmitting the virus to others in the low-risk group who then generate antibodies, they block the network of pathways toward the most vulnerable people, ultimately ending the threat. Extending whole-population isolation would directly prevent that widespread immunity from developing.

Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections.

Critical health care for millions of Americans is being ignored and people are dying to accommodate “potential” COVID-19 patients and for fear of spreading the disease. Most states and many hospitals abruptly stopped “nonessential” procedures and surgery. That prevented diagnoses of life-threatening diseases, like cancer screening, biopsies of tumors now undiscovered and potentially deadly brain aneurysms. Treatments, including emergency care, for the most serious illnesses were also missed. Cancer patients deferred chemotherapy. An estimated 80 percent of brain surgery cases were skipped. Acute stroke and heart attack patients missed their only chances for treatment, some dying and many now facing permanent disability.

Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures.

The overwhelming evidence all over the world consistently shows that a clearly defined group — older people and others with underlying conditions — is more likely to have a serious illness requiring hospitalization and more likely to die from COVID-19. Knowing that, it is a commonsense, achievable goal to target isolation policy to that group, including strictly monitoring those who interact with them. Nursing home residents, the highest risk, should be the most straightforward to systematically protect from infected people, given that they already live in confined places with highly restricted entry.

The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.

Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center.


https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-pani c-and-end-the-total-isolation


tbomike - 5/2/2020 at 10:48 PM

quote:
All this hand wringing and fear about getting the virus, spreading the virus, keeping the country shut down, waiting for a cure, etc. will almost certainly be seen in hindsight as one of the stupidest reactions mankind has ever had to a threat. We've let fear overcome reason, and we over-reacted to something that is turning out to be no worse for the majority than an average seasonal flu. While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu. The difference this time is that our insane over-reaction by shutting down most of the world's economy will have more devastating impact to the lives and well being of far more people than the actual illness itself.

quote:
The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation

The tragedy of the COVID-19 pandemic appears to be entering the containment phase. Tens of thousands of Americans have died, and Americans are now desperate for sensible policymakers who have the courage to ignore the panic and rely on facts. Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function.

Five key facts are being ignored by those calling for continuing the near-total lockdown.

Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19.

The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies.

In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 10 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000.

Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.

Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding.

We can learn about hospital utilization from data from New York City, the hotbed of COVID-19 with more than 34,600 hospitalizations to date. For those under 18 years of age, hospitalization from the virus is 0.01 percent, or 11 per 100,000 people; for those 18 to 44 years old, hospitalization is 0.1 percent. Even for people ages 65 to 74, only 1.7 percent were hospitalized. Of 4,103 confirmed COVID-19 patients with symptoms bad enough to seek medical care, Dr. Leora Horwitz of NYU Medical Center concluded "age is far and away the strongest risk factor for hospitalization." Even early WHO reports noted that 80 percent of all cases were mild, and more recent studies show a far more widespread rate of infection and lower rate of serious illness. Half of all people testing positive for infection have no symptoms at all. The vast majority of younger, otherwise healthy people do not need significant medical care if they catch this infection.

Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem.

We know from decades of medical science that infection itself allows people to generate an immune response — antibodies — so that the infection is controlled throughout the population by “herd immunity.” Indeed, that is the main purpose of widespread immunization in other viral diseases — to assist with population immunity. In this virus, we know that medical care is not even necessary for the vast majority of people who are infected. It is so mild that half of infected people are asymptomatic, shown in early data from the Diamond Princess ship, and then in Iceland and Italy. That has been falsely portrayed as a problem requiring mass isolation. In fact, infected people without severe illness are the immediately available vehicle for establishing widespread immunity. By transmitting the virus to others in the low-risk group who then generate antibodies, they block the network of pathways toward the most vulnerable people, ultimately ending the threat. Extending whole-population isolation would directly prevent that widespread immunity from developing.

Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections.

Critical health care for millions of Americans is being ignored and people are dying to accommodate “potential” COVID-19 patients and for fear of spreading the disease. Most states and many hospitals abruptly stopped “nonessential” procedures and surgery. That prevented diagnoses of life-threatening diseases, like cancer screening, biopsies of tumors now undiscovered and potentially deadly brain aneurysms. Treatments, including emergency care, for the most serious illnesses were also missed. Cancer patients deferred chemotherapy. An estimated 80 percent of brain surgery cases were skipped. Acute stroke and heart attack patients missed their only chances for treatment, some dying and many now facing permanent disability.

Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures.

The overwhelming evidence all over the world consistently shows that a clearly defined group — older people and others with underlying conditions — is more likely to have a serious illness requiring hospitalization and more likely to die from COVID-19. Knowing that, it is a commonsense, achievable goal to target isolation policy to that group, including strictly monitoring those who interact with them. Nursing home residents, the highest risk, should be the most straightforward to systematically protect from infected people, given that they already live in confined places with highly restricted entry.

The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.

Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center.


https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-pani c-and-end-the-total-isolation



Totally agree and I have been saying it for weeks. Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip. The other day the state of Maine had like 35 patients TOTAL with covid-19 in their hospitals yet their Governor extended much of their lockdown. I am stunned at the willing acceptance of Governor, Mayoral and health director edicts often with no constitutional or scientific basis and anecdotal stories about random cities in 1918 are not a scientific basis for such drastic measures. We turned a 79 year old scienstist into a reality star who can't pass up an interview all the while a 79 year old man who works 19 hours a day gets to tell everyone over the age of 60 they are in danger. Yet none of these measures protected our folks in nursing homes. Everyone wants to complain about Trump ( and I am no fan ) yet all the Governors and Mayors as well spend all their time telling all of us what an amazing job they and their teams are doing. It is all remarkable.

[Edited on 5/2/2020 by tbomike]


Stephen - 5/2/2020 at 10:52 PM

Have never fully understood the correlation of shutting down commerce and as a way to fight the virus
Aren’t we just making it twice as hard on ourselves? What benefit does a ruined economy have in stopping the spread?
Good read, & re the 1st paragraph, FDR’s words come to mind
“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself”

I say reopen everything Memorial Day wknd - people can still wear masks etc, they can just remove them when they go out to eat, cheer at a game etc, & do social distancing on their own etc

The 6 feet apart/self quarantining/stay at home approach hasn’t been effective - resuscitating/restarting the economy must now take equal priority w/finding a cure imo


tbomike - 5/2/2020 at 11:00 PM

Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?

Food lines a mile long in America’s second-wealthiest state

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/food-lines-a-mile-long-in-americas-second -wealthiest-state/ar-BB13wa7b

Or this?

Pay Cuts, Furloughs, Redeployment for Doctors and Hospital Staff
— Health systems see massive disruption from COVID-19

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85827




nebish - 5/3/2020 at 03:23 PM

When Rowland did his latest round of member clean-up this thread got bumped off the forum, so I'll bring it back in case we want to keep it going.

[Edited on 5/3/2020 by nebish]


Fujirich - 5/3/2020 at 03:51 PM

quote:
Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip.
If you're worried about your personal well-being then don't go to the beach. Simple as that. Others who don't feel threatened should do as they please. "Group think" is a good description. But power hungry politicians (as well as foreign enemies) now see it can be used against us to suppress our freedoms and have us cower at home. A very dangerous precedent.

quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/food-lines-a-mile-long-in-americas-second -wealthiest-state/ar-BB13wa7b

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85827
Not saying it isn't a threat. Just that the response will end up being far worse than the virus itself. These are early reactions to ordering shut downs of businesses and the overall economy. Had we rode it out as we have for many past virus threats, this would not be occurring.


BIGV - 5/3/2020 at 05:00 PM

quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?


Of course it is a public health "threat"...But to what degree?..Anything that can kill is a threat and my heart goes out to anyone who has lost a loved one due to this, the flu, Cancer, heart disease or.....BUT, it does not appear to be the threat the Media and the Gov't are saying.....

We've been played, either out of ignorance, fear or something more sinister. One thing stands above all else to me, there are too many experts in the fields of Government, Health Care & Education who can't seen to agree on anything....


tbomike - 5/3/2020 at 06:19 PM

quote:
quote:
Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip.
If you're worried about your personal well-being then don't go to the beach. Simple as that. Others who don't feel threatened should do as they please. "Group think" is a good description. But power hungry politicians (as well as foreign enemies) now see it can be used against us to suppress our freedoms and have us cower at home. A very dangerous precedent.

quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/food-lines-a-mile-long-in-americas-second -wealthiest-state/ar-BB13wa7b

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85827
Not saying it isn't a threat. Just that the response will end up being far worse than the virus itself. These are early reactions to ordering shut downs of businesses and the overall economy. Had we rode it out as we have for many past virus threats, this would not be occurring.


Not sure but it seems like you don't recognize both my posts were and are in agreement with what you said and the article you posted. This post is just pointing out for the pro lockdown folks that I agree with your points and that post was in furtherance of your points.


tbomike - 5/3/2020 at 06:20 PM

quote:
quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?


Of course it is a public health "threat"...But to what degree?..Anything that can kill is a threat and my heart goes out to anyone who has lost a loved one due to this, the flu, Cancer, heart disease or.....BUT, it does not appear to be the threat the Media and the Gov't are saying.....

We've been played, either out of ignorance, fear or something more sinister. One thing stands above all else to me, there are too many experts in the fields of Government, Health Care & Education who can't seen to agree on anything....


You and fuji who I was posting in agreement with do not seem to have followed what I was getting at.


Fujirich - 5/3/2020 at 09:44 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip.
If you're worried about your personal well-being then don't go to the beach. Simple as that. Others who don't feel threatened should do as they please. "Group think" is a good description. But power hungry politicians (as well as foreign enemies) now see it can be used against us to suppress our freedoms and have us cower at home. A very dangerous precedent.

quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/food-lines-a-mile-long-in-americas-second -wealthiest-state/ar-BB13wa7b

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85827
Not saying it isn't a threat. Just that the response will end up being far worse than the virus itself. These are early reactions to ordering shut downs of businesses and the overall economy. Had we rode it out as we have for many past virus threats, this would not be occurring.


Not sure but it seems like you don't recognize both my posts were and are in agreement with what you said and the article you posted. This post is just pointing out for the pro lockdown folks that I agree with your points and that post was in furtherance of your points.
I was just adding to what you said - not trying to conflict with it. Sorry it didn't come across better.


Fujirich - 5/3/2020 at 09:51 PM

quote:
Opinion: We Wrecked Our Economy for Nothing

Imagine, if you will, an edict from your Mayor, Governor, the President, or all three. This edict targets you and 30 million other citizens simply because you are a member of a specific economic class or category of worker. Your vocation has been determined to be “non-essential.” The directive is clear. You will forgo your wages for an indeterminate period of time. You have no choice. If you fail to comply, you face fines and/or imprisonment. The stated objectives of all of this, are to preclude the medical system from being overwhelmed and to increase the lifespan of one million people, many of whom would perish within 6 months anyhow from already existing conditions.

This is exactly what has happened. The federal government has encouraged mayors and governors to enact certain “social distancing” guidelines and forbade workers in “non essential’ occupations from earning a paycheck. This has, over the past few months, caused over 30 million people to become newly unemployed and unable to feed their families. This number will continue to rise. It is not much of a reach to believe we could hit 20% unemployment…numbers we haven’t gotten to since the Great Depression.

There is little-to-no actual science behind this draconian decision. The experts told us that by sacrificing the jobs of 30 million people (and still counting) we would “flatten the curve” on new infections and thus keep our hospital system from being overwhelmed. The “experts” and their models have been proven wrong time and again throughout this debacle.

The expected tidal wave never struck the hospital system as a whole. Point of fact, because of deferred procedures put off in order to free up bed space for the expected surge, many hospitals have laid of staff and some have shut their doors…permanently. The United States is now exporting ventilators.

As more and more information comes in, we are seeing that this virus is not nearly as infectious as previously thought, and it is far less deadly. When it comes right down to it, this disease is going to end up with a Mortality Rate at or below our annual flu average. For that, we brought direct harm, pain, and suffering to 30 million other Americans.

The Chicken Little folks supporting Dr. Fauci and COL/Dr. Birx are claiming that we saved a million U.S lives by shutting down our economy. Fine. Let’s do some math. For the sake of argument, let’s agree here that without closing up our economy, the number of U.S. Fatalities would have reached 1.1 Million. Let’s also assume that by invoking Dr. Fauci’s draconian measures, we were able to cut that number down to 100,000 (I chose 1.1M and 100K in order to make the math simpler).

Bottom line? For each life allegedly saved, we as a nation, the states & localities severally, DEMANDED under threat of fines and/or imprisonment, that 30 other (non-essential) American workers forgo their paychecks. We (corporate we) told select classes of people that we were going to essentially deny them the ability to make a living…and without any sort of due process whatsoever.

Basically, the governors and mayors with the encouragement of the federal government denied the civil rights of broad swaths of the American citizenry. They abridged the right to earn a living on the unproven chance that it might save a stranger’s life. What’s worse, it wasn’t like we demanded that all of America make this sacrifice. No. We actually forced the weakest (financially) among us to carry this load. Interestingly, I find anecdotally that the folks most interested in keeping this shutdown in place until we are “perfectly safe,” aren’t the hourly wage, service industry workers who have been forced to shoulder almost this entire burden. Nope. It’s the “essential workers,” people whose occupation allows telecommuting, the media, and, of course, folks on government salaries.

Mind you, none of the above was done via legislative action, which might have made it somewhat more palatable. It was all done via executive orders, big and small. As new data comes in, we are seeing that all of this had little-to-no effect on the spread of the virus nor the number of fatalities. We trampled on the Constitution, destroyed our economy, and wrecked the lives of millions of Americans…for nothing. And we aren’t done yet.
https://www.redstate.com/darth641/2020/05/03/opinion-we-wrecked-our-economy -for-nothing/


BIGV - 5/3/2020 at 10:58 PM

The latest from Bill Maher

https://youtu.be/28I5WyLp15o


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 12:46 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.


Is that how you greet a member we haven't seen for 5 years?


Is that what a member who hasn't been here for five years posts upon his return?

OK, fine. Welcome back Bruce. My 90+ year old family members, affectionately referred to as "geezers", sure are glad about your return

Better?


That's fine. He did refer to himself as a geezer for what it's worth.


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 12:55 AM

quote:
quote:
Have you seen that person, driving in a car by themselves, wearing a mask?
Follow the money.


To all y'all, QUIT STARING AT ME.


I've seen that. I take mine off immediately upon leaving the store. But consider a couple things - maybe the person did not want to touch their face to take the mask off. Or maybe they had somebody in the back seat? Or they just dropped somebody off or are about to pick somebody up?

I just picked up curbside food the other day, the server came to me with a mask on, as she approached I put mine on. Maybe it made her feel a little better. Like I said earlier, if our state is going to make employees here wear masks, I feel I should too in their presence.

The first couple times I saw it I thought it was odd, but people have a right to wear a mask in their car if they want.

By the way, Pence just said in the Fox News virtual town hall "I should've worn the mask at the Mayo Clinic". I appreciate him saying that and admitting he was wrong.


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 12:58 AM

quote:
Any takers? I've only got two testicles!


LOL, no thanks I don't want any part of your testicles!


alanwoods - 5/4/2020 at 01:21 AM

quote:
When Rowland did his latest round of member clean-up this thread got bumped off the forum, so I'll bring it back in case we want to keep it going.

[Edited on 5/3/2020 by nebish]


I haven't been on in a couple days. Did I miss something? I did a quick member search and couldn't find the member name I was searching...


alanwoods - 5/4/2020 at 01:39 AM

Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.

And the shaming practiced by either side is sickening.

I'm going to agree with Vince on this one. We've been played - and played on an unprecedented scale. I don't think sheeple is a bigoted term to use.

When history looks back on this, just like any other historical event is revisited, there will either be heroes or fools. It remains to be seen who will be counted among the fools. Hindsight is always 20-20.

I just want a table full of Mexican food.


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 01:42 AM

quote:
All this hand wringing and fear about getting the virus, spreading the virus, keeping the country shut down, waiting for a cure, etc. will almost certainly be seen in hindsight as one of the stupidest reactions mankind has ever had to a threat. We've let fear overcome reason, and we over-reacted to something that is turning out to be no worse for the majority than an average seasonal flu. While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu. The difference this time is that our insane over-reaction by shutting down most of the world's economy will have more devastating impact to the lives and well being of far more people than the actual illness itself.


"While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu".


The problem is, how do we cope and handle with the groups that require more care and closer attention? There has never been the strain on hospitals and those workers from the normal flu.

Would you agree, that if mitigation was not put into place that cases would've grown, hospitalizations would've grown and deaths would've grown? It gets to a point, what can our healthcare system handle, both in terms of the facilities and beds and the human workers that must tend to these people. And then the morgues, the funeral homes, the cemeteries. It is such a crush in a short period of time on these systems that they become overwhelmed. 67,674 covid-19 deaths at the moment in just 2 months. There is a discrepancy comparing covid deaths to flu deaths, according to this article - it's apples to oranges:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/comparing-covid-19-deaths -to-flu-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/

I go back and forth on this.

More people are going to be negatively impacted by the economic fallout of this virus than the people directly impacted by the virus. You have to consider the family and loved ones who lost somebody to this virus - you can't really compare that or measure that.

Neither alternative is good. Keep the economy going at the sacrifice of more lives lost. Shut most of the economy down to save more lives. Which one ultimately is better? Before you say the former no matter how unfortunate it is to those people who die and their friends and family left dealing with it, consider this. In the face of more infection, and more death and more demand and strain on the medical system...would it have even been possible to keep the economy going?


What I'm saying is, the fallout from more infection and death would've had a natural drag on the economy and businesses...owners, managers, employees, customers more getting infected. Suppliers dealing with man power shortages. Delays, back orders, capacity and capability issues. More coronavirus sickness would've lead to business interruptions. Even if hospitalizations are about 20% and deaths are something like 5% of confirmed cases (or we can use other metrics), as these numbers would've continually gone up we hadn't tried mitigation there would've been some sort of panic and economic toll that happened anyway. Unless you are of the opinion that we could've kept things opened and not had more cases? If so I'd like to hear you explain it if you don't mind.

It just seems logical, the more people in circulation and more infections present are going to lead to greater infection and as a result more hospitalizations and all the problems in the paragraph above. That just seems likely to me. If you have another view, I'm willing to listen.

The hill article you quoted says the states followed federal government guidelines to shut down nonessential work. Well, some states were going to do this on their own. Many states would not have stood still as their hospitals get flooded. So shut downs would've happened no matter what the federal government wanted as states acted in their own supposed best interest. There is no singular central direction on this. It might look that way, but clearly states are doing whatever they want and I don't think it could've been any other way. So I think it is foolish to think "if only our federal government had a different policy on this everyone would've done X or everyone would've done Y". That never would've happened.

I'm just a normal guy trying to figure this stuff out, so I don't know. I'm not sure you or anyone else really knows what was right or wrong or what is right or wrong now. Maybe you have it all figured out.

Whatever happened behind us is behind us. What I want now is to live with this virus and it's associated risks all while we open up our businesses and increase our activity and interactions. While we do this, I want to be careful because I don't want any reason for the ones running the show to have to tell us to go back into our shells. Maybe it is overcautious, maybe we are acting silly with all the masks and distancing. I don't really care right now. Let's figure out what went wrong later. For now, for the ones comfortable with whatever risks might or might not exist, let's get out and open up. But let's be careful because if we aren't careful and we're wrong it makes anything that we gained from mitigation wasted. There has been a lot of sacrifice paid in different ways. Let's not have it be for wasted.


Fujirich - 5/4/2020 at 02:57 AM

quote:
"While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu".

The problem is, how do we cope and handle with the groups that require more care and closer attention? There has never been the strain on hospitals and those workers from the normal flu.
As it turns out, I have a personal experience that has made me more adamant in my views on this in recent weeks.

About three weeks ago, I had some sever abdominal pain that just came out of nowhere. It was the early AM on a Sunday morning, and it was bad enough that I called 911. I had never done that for anything in my life previously, but this scared me to the point of feeling that I needed help. So they come and take me to the ER. Of course I'm thinking; what kind of mess am I getting into because of the virus? Will I go to the regular ER, or has that been reserved only for virus patients, and they'll take me to some other part of the hospital?

So we pull up to the normal ER entrance. Inside, there's no rush of activity. No line of people. No evidence of any strain on the system whatsoever. Its about 6 AM, and you can hear a pin drop. Other than seeing all the staff wearing masks, I see no other patients and note nothing that would say we have a health emergency. This is one of the largest ER facilities on the eastern side of Cincinnati, and it looks like deadsville.

My experience aligns with so many reports of similar conditions all around the country. This thing hasn't over-run our system. It didn't even do so in NYC, where such extraordinary efforts we made to handle a massive need for hospital beds and equipment just a few weeks ago, and almost none of that was needed. Don't get me wrong - I praise the preparation and the effort. I know it will be easy to label this as Monday morning quarterbacking, but from the outset I felt we were over-reacting based on fear instead of real knowledge.


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 03:26 AM

Are you ok Rich? Your stomach pain?

I have heard some stories of this too, about hospitals that are not full, not even half full, not even close to full or closer to empty of covid patients. I have been trying to get a hospital count per county or even per specific hospitals in Ohio and can't find one. Just that our daily hospitalized rate has remained about 1000 patients per day in Ohio hospitals. At one time weeks ago I saw our local hospitals released the number they had, but I have not seen that since.

The natural question becomes, what would the number of hospitalized patients been without mitigation?

Nobody can know.

If Ohio is consistently averaging about 1000 patients in Ohio hospitals per day and if we accept a 20% hospitalization rate (all of this is just on confirmed cases, there ware many unconfirmed cases which lowers the hospitalization and mortality rate)...if Ohio had 5000 more confirmed cases that would lead to 1000 more hospitalizations. Can we handle that? Ohio has about 3600 ICU beds across 236 hospitals. How many have non-covid patients in them already? Not every hospitalized covid patient needs ICU. I see currently under 400 of our about 1000 patients are in ICU. So there is a lot of ICU capacity in the state.

So maybe it never would've happened, the overwhelming? Recalling back a month ago, they feared they wouldn't have enough beds, wouldn't have enough ICU capacity. Where they wrong or did mitigation help us - are both correct?

I think NYC did get overwhelmed. There were patients in hallways, field hospitals that went underutilized, but were still used in some manner. Others can talk more to that, but it was really bad in NYC. Even if beds didn't run out in the system, there certainly is an exhaustion for the workers having to tend these very sick patients. The workers are burning out - so that in a sense is a different kind of overwhelmed.

Could it have got bad in Cincy, or Columbus or Cleveland? Surely in some rural areas that lack proper medical facilities if they had an outbreak could've gotten bad.

Ohio has about 20,000 cases to date. We just don't know, and never will know, what the case count would've been without mitigation. The models were mostly wrong...and so many models, so many different estimates. The only way to find out is to pick one course of action and see what happens.

Pretty sure damned if you do and damned if you don't. Go with extreme mitigation and everyone complains about the sky has fallen on the economy...and other things with the food lines and mental health issues. But if you allow it to just run through society, everyone complains that we just let people die instead of taking appropriate action to protect the vulnerable and limit the spread.

The right thing would be to strike a balance...which is what I'm about trying to do right now. Could we have had a better balance back in March? Who knows, in the moment, it's hard to tell and it is risky either way. The safer play was to error on saving lives and limiting infection spread. Was that the right one?

[Edited on 5/4/2020 by nebish]


Fujirich - 5/4/2020 at 10:06 AM

quote:
Are you ok Rich? Your stomach pain?
Yeah, I'm fine - thanks for asking.

They thought it might have been something related to my gallbladder, but scans and tests showed nothing. It was about 4 hours of intense pain, the likes of which I've never felt. In the past, I've had part of my intestine pinched into a hole in my abdominal wall that had me writhing in pain on the floor, and had the joy of kidney stones. Neither of which had me thinking 911. But this did. Ironically, like both of those experiences, it came as quickly as it went.

I'm chalking it up to fried chicken the night before.


nebish - 5/5/2020 at 10:13 PM

I've paid less and less attention to all national news related to virus cases, plans to reopen or extended mitigation orders.

I have paid closer attention to Ohio's data.

Since Ohio's peak of 1380 new cases on April 19th ( a high 3-day peak due to widespread prison testing), 12 of the last 17 days have seen a decreased number of cases day-over-day. We actually hit a low of 362 new cases, but the last 10 days have ticked up and plateaued perhaps stalling our downward trajectory. Today's reported new cases were 495. Our high 7 day average on 4/21 was 921. Our low 7 day average was 435 on 4/28. Our current 7 day average is 600. Our high 14 day average was just on 5/1 at 688 avg new cases per day, current 14 day average is 517 - by this weekend that should go down substantially as the peak days will fall off the average range.

We have tested about 5000 more people last week compared to the week prior. Positive cases will go up as testing goes up, but % of positive results are decreasing over the last week (9% positive results in the May 5 data, 16% positive on 4/29, our peak day positive results was 20-40% due to the prison testing).

Daily statewide hospitalizations have remained 1000-1100 for 5 weeks with no substantial increase or decrease. ICU patients have dropped steadily from a high of 524 early April to 402 as of today.

Interesting, my county has the 7th most cases in the state and 3rd most deaths. Mahoning County has a population of about 228,000 people. Our new cases averaged about 20 per day most of April, sometimes a little lower, however 2 of the last 3 days have seen a new spike making the current 7 day average of 30 per day. New hospitalizations are averaging just 2 per day, down from about about 6 per day 3 weeks ago.


PhotoRon286 - 5/6/2020 at 03:17 AM

quote:
Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.


I just want a table full of Mexican food.


I just want my youngest son to not die of this sh!t while he's working on Long Island spelling the ambulance crews who have been handling this for two months.

I'm such a self centered azzhole.


piacere - 5/6/2020 at 10:14 AM

quote:
quote:
Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.


I just want a table full of Mexican food.


I just want my youngest son to not die of this sh!t while he's working on Long Island spelling the ambulance crews who have been handling this for two months.

I'm such a self centered azzhole.



Just a concerned father. Good on him, ballsy move doing what he's doing. In the years to come, he'll be telling your grandkids about the experience.
Hang tough.


gina - 5/6/2020 at 11:58 PM

quote:
quote:
Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.


I just want a table full of Mexican food.


I just want my youngest son to not die of this sh!t while he's working on Long Island spelling the ambulance crews who have been handling this for two months.

I'm such a self centered azzhole.



The precautions the ER docs use are to change clothes immediately after work before leaving the hospital. So they leave the hospital in clean clothes not contaminating their car. The clothes they arrived to work in and wore all day are put in a plastic bag and put in their trunk till they can be washed. If they have a house they leave them in the garage till they can wash them. The docs and nurses who go home in scrubs worn all day take them off outside their house, either in the garage or on the patio. They do not bring them in the house unless they are in a plastic bag going to be washed immediately. No shoes go in the house. Put them in a plastic bag have other shoes or slippers to use in the house. You have to separate potentially contaminated clothes.

The idea is to leave the house or apt or hotel in clean clothes and come home in clean clothes. That minimizes bringing any germs into where you are living so you are not breathing anything Infectious while there. When outside or at work, masks. Wash hands as often as possible. Get sleep eat at least one good meal and if you can a breakfast sandwich.

Doctors are in the germiest places, yet they stay safe. He should be fine.


stormyrider - 5/7/2020 at 02:42 AM

Hopefully they have enough protective gear.
Those guys are rock stars


nebish - 5/7/2020 at 02:04 PM



quote:
“If you notice, 18% of the people came from nursing homes, less than 1% came from jail or prison, 2% came from the homeless population, 2% from other congregate facilities, but 66% of the people were at home, which is shocking to us,” Cuomo said.

“This is a surprise: Overwhelmingly, the people were at home,” he added. “We thought maybe they were taking public transportation, and we’ve taken special precautions on public transportation, but actually no, because these people were literally at home.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov-cuomo-says-its-shocking-most-new-cor onavirus-hospitalizations-are-people-staying-home.html



So staying home doesn't make you safe?


PhotoRon286 - 5/7/2020 at 10:52 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.


I just want a table full of Mexican food.


I just want my youngest son to not die of this sh!t while he's working on Long Island spelling the ambulance crews who have been handling this for two months.

I'm such a self centered azzhole.



Just a concerned father. Good on him, ballsy move doing what he's doing. In the years to come, he'll be telling your grandkids about the experience.
Hang tough.


He works for AMR.

Central NY has a large number of first responders who are volunteering to go downstate for a two week deployment.

I talked to him today, he says they probably won't extend his assignment.

He did say though that his company is expecting to send crews to the South and Midwest after their expected increases in cases after reopening way too soon.


tbomike - 5/8/2020 at 03:41 PM

HMM.

Woodstock Occurred in the Middle of a Pandemic

https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic /?fbclid=IwAR1ouz2QG00QATnpUUSXcT_XThlDgAqppncc265FGRSZqIKBbUTlqU7H054


nebish - 5/8/2020 at 05:20 PM

quote:
HMM.

Woodstock Occurred in the Middle of a Pandemic

https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic /?fbclid=IwAR1ouz2QG00QATnpUUSXcT_XThlDgAqppncc265FGRSZqIKBbUTlqU7H054


An estimated 100,000 Americans died in the 1968-69 H3N2 pandemic (1mill worldwide).

Time for further reading, thanks for the link.



[Edited on 5/8/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 5/8/2020 at 06:31 PM

AIER excerpt:

quote:
The only actions governments took was to collect data, watch and wait, encourage testing and vaccines, and so on. The medical community took the primary responsibility for disease mitigation, as one might expect. It was widely assumed that diseases require medical not political responses.


referenced WSJ article excerpts:

quote:
In 1969, the British postal and train services and French manufacturing suffered large disruptions from flu-induced absenteeism. In West Germany, garbage collectors had to bury the dead because of a lack of undertakers.

In affected countries, some schools had to close as teachers fell ill. In less than two years, over 30,000 people died in France and Britain, and up to 60,000 in both parts of divided Germany, according to recent estimates...

Pierre Dellamonica, a French physician who started his medical career in 1969 as the epidemic was raging, says dead patients were piling up in his hospital in the south of France. But doctors and the public were fatalistic in accepting the death toll, he said.

Mortality rates for the 1968 pandemic were significantly lower than those of Covid-19, said Susan Craddock, professor at the Institute for Global Studies of the University of Minnesota. And without 24-hour news coverage, online resources and social media to heighten public anxiety, politicians were under less pressure to act than they are today, she said.

“Today, medical progress has pushed up life expectancy,” Mr. Thiessen said. While this has heightened people’s sense of security, he said, it has reduced the public’s acceptance of disease and death, especially among the most vulnerable.

In the 1960s and ’70s, the carnage of World War II was a recent memory. Life expectancy was significantly lower than today and such diseases as polio, diphtheria, measles or tuberculosis were part of everyday life.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/forgotten-pandemic-offers-contrast-to-todays-c oronavirus-lockdowns-11587720625




Has our tolerance of death shifted?

Have medical advances spoiled us to think that we shouldn't be subjected to viruses that impacted prior generations?

Are we more compassionate now than we were just some 50 years ago?

It is rather striking to compare what is happening between the two viruses.


2112 - 5/8/2020 at 06:40 PM

quote:
quote:
HMM.

Woodstock Occurred in the Middle of a Pandemic

https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic /?fbclid=IwAR1ouz2QG00QATnpUUSXcT_XThlDgAqppncc265FGRSZqIKBbUTlqU7H054


An estimated 100,000 Americans died in the 1968-69 H3N2 pandemic (1mill worldwide).

Time for further reading, thanks for the link.



[Edited on 5/8/2020 by nebish]


They are not even similar. The 1968-69 pandemic had 100,000 deaths in a period of well over a year when nothing was shut down. Compare that to the number of deaths that have taken place in just 3 months dispite closing everything down. Apples and oranges.


nebish - 5/8/2020 at 06:49 PM

The US population was smaller.

100,000 deaths / 200,000,000 population = .05% of US population died

76,101 deaths / 330,000,000 population = .023% of US has population died to date

Granted the H3N2 death count was over a two wave period. We have yet to make it through our first wave, let alone a second.

If we take the .05% of US population that died during the 1968/69 and apply it to today's population that comes out to 165,000 deaths.

The two may end up being comparable, no?


2112 - 5/8/2020 at 08:02 PM

quote:
The US population was smaller.

100,000 deaths / 200,000,000 population = .05% of US population died

76,101 deaths / 330,000,000 population = .023% of US has population died to date

Granted the H3N2 death count was over a two wave period. We have yet to make it through our first wave, let alone a second.

If we take the .05% of US population that died during the 1968/69 and apply it to today's population that comes out to 165,000 deaths.

The two may end up being comparable, no?


No, although you have a good point about the population, this pandemic has been over a period of just a few months with EXTREME countermeasures. The 68/69 was for well over a year (close to 2 years I think) with pretty much no countermeasures at all. This virus spreads much more quickly and easily.


Fujirich - 5/8/2020 at 09:23 PM

quote:
quote:
The US population was smaller.

100,000 deaths / 200,000,000 population = .05% of US population died

76,101 deaths / 330,000,000 population = .023% of US has population died to date

Granted the H3N2 death count was over a two wave period. We have yet to make it through our first wave, let alone a second.

If we take the .05% of US population that died during the 1968/69 and apply it to today's population that comes out to 165,000 deaths.

The two may end up being comparable, no?
No, although you have a good point about the population, this pandemic has been over a period of just a few months with EXTREME countermeasures. The 68/69 was for well over a year (close to 2 years I think) with pretty much no countermeasures at all. This virus spreads much more quickly and easily.
Respectfully disagree. Take away the densely populated areas where the impact has been the worst, and this has been almost a non-event. Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken. A lot of that added population has been in the exact cities where the density has caused the worst outcomes. More population density = geometrically greater spread.


stormyrider - 5/8/2020 at 09:54 PM

agree that greater population = greater spread

we don't know yet how much of a non event is will be in non dense areas
all we know is number of cases so far (which is not going down) with the intervention of social distancing. we don't know what would have happened if we didn't restrict activity or what will happen once things open up.

I hope my fears are not realized.

we have already lost more Americans than we did in Viet Nam


Fujirich - 5/8/2020 at 10:00 PM

quote:
we have already lost more Americans than we did in Viet Nam
Not to downplay the importance of any lives, but that happens nearly every year to just the regular flu.


stormyrider - 5/8/2020 at 10:09 PM

In some years, yes but not all

quote:
Overall, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the- flu-every-year



this has been a few months

population density doesn't just include cities - for example look at meat packing plants and pork processing plants

for that matter, my step son is stationed at Fort Bragg, NC. The base has been in isolation for a month, yet my step son and his roomate have it.

[Edited on 5/8/2020 by stormyrider]


Fujirich - 5/9/2020 at 01:12 AM

quote:
So let me get this straight, we aren't dropping like flies, so the precautions were a joke.
Not a joke at all - well intentioned obviously.

But a line was crossed when officials dictated that the people least able to afford an economic calamity were non-essential, and had to forego their livelihoods for something the human race has encountered many times in the past - a new virus. Unproven models predicted results to which massive fear was then applied. Tinpot dictators sprung up enacting executive orders suspending Constitutional rights, which should have caused a mass rejection of said orders. But no, the majority cowered.

I think its far too early to say we "rocked" anything. We haven't remotely begun to see the economic and personal toll this is going to take on the country.

Life is a risk. Events and evolution selects who survives or not. That's why we have an immune system that fights off this crap for most of us. Its now obvious that locking ones self away hasn't prevented it from infecting many. But the overwhelming majority who were infected have survived. Just like past virus episodes.

I'm more concerned that we'll end up with 30-50 million (or more) in disastrous economic shape than if we lost 100,000-200,000 mostly elderly, probably already compromised individuals. I know how harsh that sounds. Heck, I'm old enough to be in that latter group. But common sense has to prevail over fear, and unfortunately we've missed that boat. The cure may end up being far worse than the illness.


stormyrider - 5/9/2020 at 02:43 AM

quote:
100,000-200,000 mostly elderly,


https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and- S/9bhg-hcku
I can't get the table to copy / paste here but mostly elderly doesn't mean only elderly (not that those lives are less valuble). Because younger people are lower risk it doesn't mean they are low risk. A small percentage of 70,000 people is still a lot of people. Doctors, nurses and other hospital workers died taking care of patients with this.
Sorry, I can't stand aside and let Darwin take care of it.

I get the economic pain. I know people who lost jobs, are afraid of losing businesses, etc. My wife got furloughed, friends got laid off. It sucks. Along with the economic pain of people losing their jobs is the economic pain of taking care of a ton of sick people and making sure the people that take care of them are safe.


nebish - 5/9/2020 at 03:14 AM

People seek understanding...what is happening, why, what can we compare it to. Comparisons are always happening in life...'this sounds like that', 'this reminds me of that', 'this is kinda like that other time', and so on.

Sometimes things aren't really comparable, but it helps us understand variables and cause and effects.

There are some comparisons between 1968/69 H3N2 and Covid and there are some differences. For one, we have confirmed Covid deaths - I know even that is in dispute, some say they are under-reported, some say they are over-reported. Whatever, we have a confirmed death statistic. When the CDC comes up with flu deaths, they are estimates, not confirmed. And I don't know about H3N2 from 51 years ago, but when they issue annual estimates for deaths now, those include pneumonia. The figures I see from the 1968/69 pandemic all say "estimated". Maybe they're high, maybe they're low. Comparing estimated anything to confirmed something is problematic. 2112 raises the timeframe difference and the open nature of life vs our mitigated life now, noted.

Bad things have happened before, and we got past it. What can we draw upon from what happened before and apply to what is happening now?

Real time images and media exposure are powerful. If there were photos and videos of the Germans stocking dead bodies in subway tunnels because people were dying so fast during the Hong Kong flu pandemic all over the TV no doubt that would've had an impact, as in "what, that can come here, is here, what are we going to do?". Which is what happened when we saw the dire situation in Italy.

Nobody wanted what happened in Italy to happen here. Italy didn't want it "America this is coming to you". Maybe our nature is to be more reactionary now, maybe our society is more in need of somebody to save us and less accepting of the dangers that might be around the corner.

The debate on what should've happened and if it was the right approach or too far (or not far enough) will be argued for the rest of our lives, and beyond.

I have no problem with the actions any of our governors took. It's done. Actions were taken and outcomes have been determined. It can't be undone. Figuring out what to do in the face of pending chaos and death is difficult, especially when people are looking to their leaders and asking "what are you going to do".

So ok, we've done that.

And as I've said before, now we have to learn to live with this virus. What did I hear somebody covid-19 and social distancing and all the measures that come with it might be with us not just til 2021, but 2022. That was a scientist, so what, you have to listen to the scientists right? We'll just put all our hopes and dreams and financial needs in your hands dear scientist, we won't do anything "dangerous" until after 2022. I mean WTF are we supposed to do? Wait for a vaccine I guess. Just ordered to stay home and wait til, who knows when for that.

We have to adapt and live with this virus. Yes more infections will happen. Yes more people will die. All we can do is take precautions to limit those outcomes.

Different places are different and I don't know what is going on everywhere and I'm not going to speak for every state out there.

You have to look at your case count, your % of positive/negative infections, your hospitalizations, your ICU rate, your medical facilities, capacity and personnel, you have to be able to contract trace. All of that needs factored and people have to make a decision what and when to make the next move.

We did what was asked of us, we have "flattened the curve". We have allowed PPE and equipment to build up. We have bought time for the medical researchers to investigate therapeutics and treatments and start trials on vaccines. We have put plexiglass and dividers up at places of employment. We have limited capacity in businesses. We have people wearing masks. We have disinfecting and frequent cleaning of surfaces. We've learned to do curb-side pick-up. We don't hug, we don't handshake, we try and keep distance from others. People are wearing gloves at work, to shop, when on public transportation. We don't let visitors into hospitals or congregate living facilities. In some cases have 14 day quarantine orders for people who travel to our states.

We have done about all we can do to adjust to this contagious disease. Some people will be cautious, some people won't. I said before, we'll get what we get, it will be what it will be like everything else in life.

Even California is ready to opensome 70% of their economy. Ohio will be in the 80-90% open range in a couple weeks.

It's time to try something else. If people feel safer staying in their homes, fine, stay in your home. People have to make choices and understand whatever risks there are. If you don't like those risks, then take measures to minimize said risk.

Whatever is going to happen will happen. We're prepared now to know what we are up against. Two months ago we didn't know what was about to happen. Let's use what we know now and take the next step, and then another, and then another. Everyone is doing it. Not just USA, not just Republican Governors. This is happening.


stormyrider - 5/9/2020 at 01:07 PM

Well said
The problem is that we are in a black hole in that we don’t have enough data

Not enough diagnostic tests
Not enough antibody tests
We don’t even know for sure what the meaning of having antibodies is regarding immunity we think people would be immune, but we don’t know
You can feel great and still be contagious

The greatest risk of catching the disease is if you are in a closed space for a long time, ie store worker, factory worker, church/synagogue attendee

So as we open, please wear a mask. You will be protecting others. The other people wearing masks will protect you


tcatanesi - 5/9/2020 at 03:05 PM

quote:
Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken.

Now that statement just pisses me off.

The Trump administration's response to the coronavirus crisis has been an absolute chaotic disaster and these extreme measures had to be put in place because:

TRUMP FAILED TO TAKE THIS AS SERIOUSLY AS HE WAS BEING ADVISED TO. OVER. AND. OVER.


MartinD28 - 5/9/2020 at 03:16 PM

quote:
quote:
Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken.

Now that statement just pisses me off.

The Trump administration's response to the coronavirus crisis has been an absolute chaotic disaster and these extreme measures had to be put in place because:

TRUMP FAILED TO TAKE THIS AS SERIOUSLY AS HE WAS BEING ADVISED TO. OVER. AND. OVER.


The good news is that in the battle of the brains between Dr. Trump & Dr. Fauci, Dr. Trump says Covid19 will just disappear. I don't even know why Trump lets Dr. Fauci hang around since Trump knows more. Probably should have gotten rid of Dr. Fauci just like he got rid of the NSC Pandemic Unit. It's all a hoax anyway, right?

Trump says coronavirus will disappear without a vaccine. Fauci has said the opposite.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-says-coronavirus-will-disappear-w ithout-a-15257748.php


BIGV - 5/9/2020 at 04:31 PM

quote:
quote:
Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken.


quote:
Now that statement just pisses me off.


Really toxic stuff.
Most of us get it, see the common sense
Their arrogant and self-centered worldview


Once again, there is only one way to see things and to disagree requires labeling


tbomike - 5/9/2020 at 04:40 PM

Interesting numbers. From the Heritage Foundation so some might dismiss them but.


With many state and local governments starting to relax stay-at-home orders, it’s instructive to examine just how concentrated the spread of COVID-19 has been in the U.S.

Although all U.S. states have reported cases of COVID-19, the distribution of the cases and deaths has remained heavily concentrated in a small number of states, and among a small number of counties within all states.

For instance, as of May 4, just 10 states account for 70% of all U.S. cases and 77% of all deaths. Together, New York and New Jersey alone account for 38% of all cases and 48% of total COVID-19 deaths.
ust five states—New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Illinois, and California—account for 54% of all of the confirmed cases in the U.S. and 61% of all coronavirus deaths.

These state-level figures do not, however, adequately describe the concentrated nature of the spread of COVID-19.

As the first chart shows, the 30 counties with the most COVID-19 cases account for 50% of all the cases in the U.S. (and 57% of all deaths). That is, just 1% of the counties in the U.S. are responsible for half of the country’s coronavirus cases and more than half of the deaths.

Of those 30 counties, 24 are in the Northeast corridor between Philadelphia and Boston, the passageway served by a commuter railway system that runs through Manhattan. Overall, just 11% of the counties in the U.S. contain nearly 95% of all the COVID-19 deaths.

Just as important, as the second chart shows, 52% of all U.S. counties have had zero COVID-19 deaths as of May 4.

Also as of May 4, 13 states have deaths that remain unallocated to respective counties. At most, those allocations could reduce the number of zero-death counties by 2 percentage points.

The chart also illustrates that 66% of all U.S. counties have no more than one coronavirus death, 80% have five or fewer, 86% have 10 or fewer, and 89% have fewer than 15.

Put another way, only about 10% of the counties in the U.S. have more than 15 or more COVID-19 deaths, and throughout the epidemic, the spread of COVID has remained highly concentrated in a handful of geographic locations in the U.S.


BIGV - 5/9/2020 at 05:35 PM

quote:
quote:
Once again, there is only one way to see things and to disagree requires labeling


Once again, you label my personal views as labeling, and assume that I think my viewpoint is the only way to see things.


You will characterize things with your own sense as will most here, forgive me for wondering why a simple "I disagree" is not used more here and yes, I see phrases like "Really toxic stuff"..."Most of us get it, see the common sense"..."Their arrogant and self-centered worldview"...as condescending and a bloated sense of righteousness. And no, not looking for confrontation, but like you, just expressing an opinion about an opinion.


BIGV - 5/9/2020 at 05:46 PM

quote:
blah blah blah


Fair enough


stormyrider - 5/9/2020 at 08:33 PM

This is a good read

Non political

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them


cyclone88 - 5/10/2020 at 01:13 PM

quote:
https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoi d-them

Thanks for posting Dr. Bromage's observations. She really makes the point that it's not just the proximity to someone who may be sick or asymptomatic & sick, but the duration & type of exposure. The fact that singing is significantly more contagious than talking or breathing was surprising (unless one had given it significant thought). The example of 60 sickened people out of a 64-person choir singing for 2.5 hours in an enclosed space was harsh; certainly explains why clubs w/live music are hotspots.

Hard to find politics in useful facts unless one rejects all science.


nebish - 5/10/2020 at 01:27 PM

quote:
Trump says coronavirus will disappear without a vaccine. Fauci has said the opposite.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-says-coronavirus-will-disappear-w ithout-a-15257748.php


I would definitely take something Fauci said more seriously than Trump. Even though Fauci did not seem to predict the seriousness of this virus in his comments earlier this year, that doesn't make him less of an expert to me, it just shows me understanding what can or will happen with a new virus is difficult.

My question is, what if this does go away...like SARS did? SARS-CoV1 went away without a vaccine. Nobody has been infected with the original SARS since 2004. It went away.

Trump shouldn't say he knows this one will go away, Trump shouldn't say or do a lot of things.

There is chance that if Covid-19, SARS-CoV-2, follows the 2003 SARS-CoV-1...it could go away.

Maybe there are some comparisons out there between the two viruses that explains why it could or why it couldn't go away.

Your point is taken, Trump giving this kind of opinion is pure speculation or even wishful thinking. But at the same time, it is possible if history is any example.


nebish - 5/10/2020 at 01:51 PM

quote:
Interesting numbers. From the Heritage Foundation so some might dismiss them but.


With many state and local governments starting to relax stay-at-home orders, it’s instructive to examine just how concentrated the spread of COVID-19 has been in the U.S.

Although all U.S. states have reported cases of COVID-19, the distribution of the cases and deaths has remained heavily concentrated in a small number of states, and among a small number of counties within all states.

For instance, as of May 4, just 10 states account for 70% of all U.S. cases and 77% of all deaths. Together, New York and New Jersey alone account for 38% of all cases and 48% of total COVID-19 deaths.
ust five states—New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Illinois, and California—account for 54% of all of the confirmed cases in the U.S. and 61% of all coronavirus deaths.

These state-level figures do not, however, adequately describe the concentrated nature of the spread of COVID-19.

As the first chart shows, the 30 counties with the most COVID-19 cases account for 50% of all the cases in the U.S. (and 57% of all deaths). That is, just 1% of the counties in the U.S. are responsible for half of the country’s coronavirus cases and more than half of the deaths.

Of those 30 counties, 24 are in the Northeast corridor between Philadelphia and Boston, the passageway served by a commuter railway system that runs through Manhattan. Overall, just 11% of the counties in the U.S. contain nearly 95% of all the COVID-19 deaths.

Just as important, as the second chart shows, 52% of all U.S. counties have had zero COVID-19 deaths as of May 4.

Also as of May 4, 13 states have deaths that remain unallocated to respective counties. At most, those allocations could reduce the number of zero-death counties by 2 percentage points.

The chart also illustrates that 66% of all U.S. counties have no more than one coronavirus death, 80% have five or fewer, 86% have 10 or fewer, and 89% have fewer than 15.

Put another way, only about 10% of the counties in the U.S. have more than 15 or more COVID-19 deaths, and throughout the epidemic, the spread of COVID has remained highly concentrated in a handful of geographic locations in the U.S.




Here is the link for this, there are some stories linked within and a couple charts accompanying the story:
https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/over-half-us-counties-hav e-had-no-covid-19-deaths

tbomike, I don't think you yourself have looked at heritage foundation stories very often, right? Hey, let's look at all the different angles on this...left, right, middle, independent, good information can come from different sources to provide insight. And then we have to sort through the BS too, because it's out there. Breaking down the statistics and demographic interests me.

According to the NY Times, 35% of Covid deaths in the US have come from nursing home facilities.

I remember when I was a kid there was a stigma with nursing homes, I remember my grandma saying in the 1980s "Don't put me in a home". Elderly did not want to go to the limited number of "homes" that were around back then. Instead many choose to stay in their own houses or moved in with family who could look after them. By the time the mid 90s rolled around, my other grandma willingly went to a new nursing home facility many of her friends were choosing to go to.

So back during the Hong Kong flu, comparing that to now, there was no widespread senior living industry like there is now. And how unfortunate and sad when this virus gets into those buildings of vulnerable populations of our parents and grandparents. Just as we have higher density population centers now in our country, we also have more congregate living centers now. And, which has been noted already, our life expectancy has increased, but that doesn't mean we are a healthier population as a whole, because we are not healthier.

My mind just wonders about all these things, like if Covid-19 had hit in 1968/69 would the deaths been any different than what they estimate was 100,000 back then or would the death rate remained about the same? And by the same token, if the Hong Kong flu from 68/69 had hit now, would it produce similar infections and deaths to what we have now because our society is more vulnerable now than it was then?

Life is different now, society has changed, our vulnerabilities have changed.


nebish - 5/10/2020 at 01:55 PM

NYT story on nursing home infections and deaths. Nearly 20 states have half or more of their deaths stemming from nursing homes.

I'm not making any comment implied or otherwise, just submitting the data.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/09/us/coronavirus-cases-nursing -homes-us.html

[Edited on 5/10/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 5/10/2020 at 02:11 PM

quote:
This is a good read

Non political

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them


Excellent. Very informative. Reinforces the use of masks.

One thing to mention, it doesn't take away from the essence of the restaurant infection example, I think the story appeared in the NYT, the 4 people who became infected dining at the known infected person's table could've been infected at some point earlier due to previous exposure and contact with A1.

Otherwise, I hope everyone reads that to get an understanding of what risks you put yourself at in what settings and how the virus might or might not spread.


stormyrider - 5/10/2020 at 04:45 PM

Glad you guys like it, I found it very informative.
I don’t think he mentioned one of the 1st (if not the 1st) known outbreaks in the Boston area. There was the infamous Biogen meeting. One guy travelled from Italy and infected several others in the meeting, some of the then got on a plane and travelled elsewhere. Just google Biogen meeting for details
Today there is a report of an outbreak in Pasadena at a birthday party- some guy was coughing without a mask
My fear is as we relax, we forget social distancing and masks- then boom.
It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that someone travels from a rural location with few or no cases to a meeting somewhere, gets infected, goes home and attends church/ meeting/ party whatever, then an outbreak starts. Indoor Crowded places make me nervous. My synagogue has services on Zoom for that reason.


MartinD28 - 5/10/2020 at 06:32 PM

quote:
Glad you guys like it, I found it very informative.
I don’t think he mentioned one of the 1st (if not the 1st) known outbreaks in the Boston area. There was the infamous Biogen meeting. One guy travelled from Italy and infected several others in the meeting, some of the then got on a plane and travelled elsewhere. Just google Biogen meeting for details
Today there is a report of an outbreak in Pasadena at a birthday party- some guy was coughing without a mask
My fear is as we relax, we forget social distancing and masks- then boom.
It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that someone travels from a rural location with few or no cases to a meeting somewhere, gets infected, goes home and attends church/ meeting/ party whatever, then an outbreak starts. Indoor Crowded places make me nervous. My synagogue has services on Zoom for that reason.


Good post. Thx.

It just goes to show how easily transmission is. These days I'm going out to the bare minimal places I have to go. Whenever I do I always wear a mask. I wish others would. One of my daughter's friends went to the store the other day & said she got the death stare from others at the florist. She said she didn't know why because she said she's Covid free. BTW - the friend hasn't been tested.

The next month or so should give a good idea of impact of relaxing closures & the correlation to cases and deaths reported.


LUKE - 5/10/2020 at 10:55 PM

Blind leadin the blind round this place.


MarkRamsey - 5/11/2020 at 12:23 AM

Fauci, Redfield, and Hahn are all in self quarantine. Pence is "distancing". But the rest of you schlepps get back to work! MAGA!!!


Jerry - 5/11/2020 at 07:26 PM

quote:
quote:
To all y'all, QUIT STARING AT ME.


Keep it on, man. Believe me we would stare at you worse if we could see your face! Damn, man you should sign up as an extra for The Walking Dead!


You did know that it's filmed in central Georgia?


PhotoRon286 - 5/11/2020 at 10:08 PM

quote:
Blind leadin the blind round this place.



Says the expert on infectious diseases.


StratDal - 5/11/2020 at 11:00 PM

"A worker infected 533 others with coronavirus at a factory in Ghana, president says"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/11/africa/ghana-factory-coronavirus-infection-i ntl/index.html

Granted it's Ghana and it's working dynamics are much different the U.S. but it's still something to consider.


nebish - 5/12/2020 at 02:06 AM

quote:
"A worker infected 533 others with coronavirus at a factory in Ghana, president says"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/11/africa/ghana-factory-coronavirus-infection-i ntl/index.html

Granted it's Ghana and it's working dynamics are much different the U.S. but it's still something to consider.




That is pretty crazy! I've searched for some other sources with more detail.

Doubt that place had any safety measures in place.

Read Ghana GDP expected to fall to lowest level in 37 years.


nebish - 5/12/2020 at 02:08 AM

4913 of our cases have come from meat packing plants as of May 1st.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6918e3.htm?s_cid=mm6918e3_x


PhotoRon286 - 5/14/2020 at 12:54 AM

quote:
^ Strikes me as significant data - maybe it is carried in meat. Or some connect with meat. Supposedly started in animal matter. Worth checking up on anyway.


If true we better hope old luke isn't serving his BFF Dickey any tainted BBQ.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 01:54 AM

Here is what has happened in Ohio:

May 1 – outpatient elective medical procedures allowed to resume (includes dental and veterinary)

May 4 – construction, manufacturing and distribution that had halted, could resume. Also general office environments can reopen.

May 12 – retail stores and service companies reopen (retail had been allowed to do appointment only from May 1st until now).

May 15 – restaurants and bars open for outside dining only – additionally, hair salons, barbershops, day spas, nail salons, tanning facilities, massage parlors, tattoo and piercing shops allowed to open

May 21 – inside restaurant dining, state park camp grounds (some private camp grounds with long-term or annually leased spots have been allowed to open)

May 22 – horse racing can resume without spectators (racinos or casinos will not open)

May 26 – in person BMV, gyms and fitness centers (a lawsuit had been filed on behalf of gyms to allow them to reopen). Non-contact or limited contact sports leagues (like tennis and golf) can resume. Public pools can open (but not amusement parks or water parks).

May 31 – daycare

TBD – higher-contact sports leagues (like soccer, basketball), dance studios, outdoor recreation, casinos and tourism

Ohio House of Representatives passed bill to limit our Health Director's orders to no more than 14 days, only a bipartisan legislative committee could allow orders for longer. Senate plans to vote next week. Governor Dewine threatens a veto (not enough votes to overcome veto). The current modified “Stay Safe Ohio” runs until May 29th is filled with exceptions, but still says individuals are “ordered to stay at home or their place of residence except as allowed in this order”. At this point I resent still being "ordered" to stay home.

As of tomorrow (5/15) up to 90% of the Ohio economy will be allowed to open.

Ohio is only conducting an average of 4640 tests per day, but average daily testing total is up 1000 from just ten days ago. Governor says we have triple that capacity and actual tests will continue to ramp up. Per his previous comments we were supposed to be testing 7200-15000 daily now, he says we have the capacity to do that many but did not explain the disconnect (same disconnect that has befallen national testing). Ohio is making our own reagent and swabs.

We are averaging about 600 new cases a day right now. At our peak in late April we were averaging about 900 new cases a day. 11 of our last 14 days have seen numbers lower than the prior day, but our overall downward trajectory has stalled and plateaued. We get a bump up and then the numbers fall off a little, then another bump up and a couple more days of fall off, but it is mostly flat at this point.

Our number of patients currently hospitalized has been dropping anywhere from 2-9 people per day. April 22nd and 23rd we had over 1100 people in the hospital. The numbers are coming in about 1000 now with some totals showing in the 900s before revisions adjust it slightly upward.

We had 510 to 520 people in ICU in late April. These figures have been steadily dropping as well to mid/upper 300s in ICU on any given day now.

My county is 7th in the state for cases. We actually had a peak a week to ten days ago, but the cases have quickly dropped in recent days. Our current 7 day average for daily cases of 18.5 is the lowest it has since things started ramping up in early April. We admit 1-2 new patients per day in our local hospitals. Deaths in my county have peaked in the last several days with 5-6 per day. The last couple days show that is declining so far. We are 4th in the state for deaths. Almost 70% of our deaths were from long term care facilities and 99% of deaths in my county were said to have co-morbidity/underlying health problems.

I run my own spreadsheets so I can better track trends in the coming weeks as we open up. I have no expectation if we can or can't do this, will have to see where it goes.

[Edited on 5/15/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 02:33 AM

One number that does clear up some of the other statistics on Ohio's case count is % of positive/negative test results.

Our positive test rate has hit a low of 7.7% over the last 7 days averaged. Eight of our last ten days have had positive test rates in single digits. At our mid-April high we were getting positives at a 20-30% rate.

Hopefully this remains steady or even goes down more as testing increases. That should tell more than just looking at daily case increases.


2112 - 5/15/2020 at 04:23 AM

quote:
One number that does clear up some of the other statistics on Ohio's case count is % of positive/negative test results.

Our positive test rate has hit a low of 7.7% over the last 7 days averaged. Eight of our last ten days have had positive test rates in single digits. At our mid-April high we were getting positives at a 20-30% rate.

Hopefully this remains steady or even goes down more as testing increases. That should tell more than just looking at daily case increases.


I'm not sure how important that piece of data is. As more testing becomes available, you would expect those additional tests going to people without symptoms, who more often than not will test negative. You would expect that percentage to go down.

What would be a good sign is new cases going down dispite additional testing.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 10:55 AM

quote:
I'm not sure how important that piece of data is. As more testing becomes available, you would expect those additional tests going to people without symptoms, who more often than not will test negative. You would expect that percentage to go down.

What would be a good sign is new cases going down dispite additional testing.


Eventually that would be true. How fast Ohio expands it's tests will play a role. Right now just under 5000 a day isn't a lot to go around yet for people without symptoms other than high risk workers. If private companies are acquiring their own tests for associates not sure how or if those will get reported to local health departments and ultimately the state.

Most of the experts say cases will go up with opening and activity, some think dramatically so. Although Georgia is proving that theory wrong so far with cases dropping 3 weeks into their open.


cyclone88 - 5/15/2020 at 12:57 PM

quote:
Although Georgia is proving that theory wrong so far with cases dropping 3 weeks into their open.

This is where the data falls through the cracks for me. I'd want to track the # of patrons of re-opened businesses against the # of new cases. There mere fact that businesses are open doesn't mean they're being patronized. As Rusty has reported, the beach shops/eateries are open & seemed to have customers. Meanwhile, the mayors of three of GA's largest cities continue to urge people to remain home.

If you know of any stats that track cases v. people still at home & people venturing out, please post. As it is, some at home cases are never reported if the symptoms are mild & the person is never tested/reported.

[Edited on 5/15/2020 by cyclone88]


playallnite - 5/15/2020 at 01:26 PM

Well, see here we go again...little boyTrumpie, AKA anti-science, anti-anyone-who-is-smarter-than-he-is-because-his-ego-is-more-fragile-than- an-eggshell-and-he-can't-read-past-the-first-grade-"See Spot Run" books fires anyone who knows more than he does....which, come to think of it is very likely everyone except his drooling knuckle-dragging supporters and his sissy syncophants.....many will die from this "hoax"


2112 - 5/15/2020 at 02:05 PM

quote:
quote:
Although Georgia is proving that theory wrong so far with cases dropping 3 weeks into their open.

This is where the data falls through the cracks for me. I'd want to track the # of patrons of re-opened businesses against the # of new cases. There mere fact that businesses are open doesn't mean they're being patronized. As Randy has reported, the beach shops/eateries are open & seemed to have customers. Meanwhile, the mayors of three of GA's largest cities continue to urge people to remain home.

If you know of any stats that track cases v. people still at home & people venturing out, please post. As it is, some at home cases are never reported if the symptoms are mild & the person is never tested/reported.


Wisconsin will give us the answer we need in about 3 weeks.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 03:58 PM

quote:
quote:
Although Georgia is proving that theory wrong so far with cases dropping 3 weeks into their open.

This is where the data falls through the cracks for me. I'd want to track the # of patrons of re-opened businesses against the # of new cases. There mere fact that businesses are open doesn't mean they're being patronized. As Randy has reported, the beach shops/eateries are open & seemed to have customers. Meanwhile, the mayors of three of GA's largest cities continue to urge people to remain home.

If you know of any stats that track cases v. people still at home & people venturing out, please post. As it is, some at home cases are never reported if the symptoms are mild & the person is never tested/reported.


I have not seen that kind of comparison. Not sure what local news stories in Georgia may be reporting.

We won't see the cell phone data that some officials do see (I don't think that is disclosed any way is it?), but maybe we can look at traffic data from Georgia's department of transportation. I'm not interested enough to do that even in my own state, but I do think some traffic data might be able to be compared.

We don't know. As you say, just because businesses and places are allowed to open doesn't mean all will and just because people are able to go there doesn't mean all will - I agree. But it must be true that while all or some will not, a portion of them certainly will. How large is that group? Don't know. But the fact that the group trying to open and do more stuff exists and are out there doing it should mean comparing a relative lock-down condition from say 4-5 weeks ago to now should offer a contrast. Many people will be out interacting and engaging in personal and business contact...how many, what percentage? Don't know that is being calculated on a widespread reportable basis.

I suppose data could be manipulated. I was actually surprised that cases would drop as reopening are allowed to occur....almost sounds like right-wing spin. I am fully prepared to see at least mini-spikes and hot spots pop up, it only seemed logical and natural it would. Having cases go down while opening up seems illogical and a strange coincidence.

It's all new territory...learning on the fly.


Rusty - 5/15/2020 at 04:16 PM

I live in southeast (coastal) Georgia.

As a matter of fact, numbers of NEW cases are still rising - if only slightly. The media has apparently moved from hyping the disease to burying it. With most businesses open (no bars yet - churches? How would I even know?) it'll take about 3 weeks to see any new surge. Here's the rub on that: someone from New York comes here, feels symptoms, gets tested (positive) - that person shows up as a new case in New York. In my opinion, it'll be several weeks before any type of victory can be declared. I'll be holed up - masking up for any errands.


cyclone88 - 5/15/2020 at 04:35 PM

quote:
We won't see the cell phone data that some officials do see (I don't think that is disclosed any way is it?)


The NYT publishes cell phone data as it's available (daily? weekly?). So far, it tracks what types of locations are getting the most visits & when they occur.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 04:39 PM

These could be fun to play around with:

https://www.safegraph.com/dashboard/reopening-the-economy-foot-traffic?s=US &d=05-12-2020&i=all


cyclone88 - 5/15/2020 at 04:44 PM

quote:
Here's the rub on that: someone from New York comes here, feels symptoms, gets tested (positive) - that person shows up as a new case in New York. In my opinion, it'll be several weeks before any type of victory can be declared. I'll be holed up - masking up for any errands.


Good point about where tourists are sickened in one state show up as new cases in their home state.

Wasn't victory already declared even though nothing has changed except there are no more daily briefings? I'm w/you. There's nowhere I want to go right now - masked walks in Central Park practicing social distancing is about it for me. Virtually all summer music & film venues have been canceled & the gym in my building remains closed per the co-op board. I still work from home w/no desire to rush back to the office.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 04:50 PM

quote:
I live in southeast (coastal) Georgia.

As a matter of fact, numbers of NEW cases are still rising - if only slightly. The media has apparently moved from hyping the disease to burying it. With most businesses open (no bars yet - churches? How would I even know?) it'll take about 3 weeks to see any new surge. Here's the rub on that: someone from New York comes here, feels symptoms, gets tested (positive) - that person shows up as a new case in New York. In my opinion, it'll be several weeks before any type of victory can be declared. I'll be holed up - masking up for any errands.


Yes, I do see that now upon looking up local news site.

Axios does say that Georgia's cases are down 12% week over week.
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07- 4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html

11Alive NBC affiliate does show on average about 30 more cases over a current 14 day period compared to one prior for Georgia. Hospitalizations have decreased by 50+ and deaths have dropped by about 4-5 current 14 day (5/1-5/14) to prior (4/17-4/30).
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/real-time-updates-c oronavirus-in-georgia-may-14/85-9926a53e-01dc-4a66-aaf9-11ab64e16db9


stormyrider - 5/15/2020 at 05:05 PM

What will also make interpretation of the stats tough is that even though states are "open", some business have stayed shut and many people are still mostly at home. People's behavior may make it look like re-opening was a success and safe when we really don't know


Rusty - 5/15/2020 at 05:12 PM

To be honest, I find the NEW CASE numbers to be misleading - even a bit non-useful. This is an accumulation number that includes EVERY case since day 1. We've only had one death here (Glynn County) but the number of cases keeps stacking up. I am sure that some have completely recovered. Weird thing is that the current "count" keeps going up or down by 1. Not sure if they're adjusting for mis-diagnosis' or what.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 06:01 PM

I see the new case numbers, the daily increase or decrease, to be very relevant and useful. The cumulative total figure since day 1 means little to me. In a historical reference sense it serves a purpose to see where the virus has gone, but it is backwards looking. The new daily cases says where the situation is currently. The only total that is impactful and of course disturbing is the death figure. The number of hospitalizations day-over-day, number in ICU, number on ventilators that is all very helpful information when looking at trends. You can average them over given periods, you can get % of increase/decrease, you can see out of the norm highs and lows due to data dumps or reporting snags. This is why I wanted to have all Ohio's data in one place that I could see at any time instead of having to search for it and then run some calculations off of how a certain site was reporting it. I collect data from the coronavirus.ohio.gov site along with data from Cleveland.com, the businessjournaldaily.com and covidtracking.com


stormyrider - 5/15/2020 at 06:54 PM

I like looking at hospitalizations, not only because I work in the hospital
In NH, access to testing has changed over time and is changing still. More new cases will be picked up as more tests are available, so a perceived increase may not be reflective of a real change. The number of sick people theoretically would be independent of test availability. Assuming the virulence of the virus is unchanged, it is a good measure of how much is out there, imo


2112 - 5/15/2020 at 10:36 PM

I look at new cases, active cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. Those numbers pretty much tell you where you are at now. From those you can tell the percent of confirmed active cases per population, if the hospitals are overwhelmed, and if things are getting better or worse. My county finally started releasing the number recovered, so now I know that there are 1.2 active confirmed cases per 10,000 people in my county, which is a pretty low ratio unless you consider that you'd probably have 2 people with it at a large concert or sporting event. Of course, there are likely many other that have it but never got tested. Very few hospitalizations here as well. We've been very fortunate, and as much as I like to be cautious it seems like most things in my area could be opened up. I would not have the same attitude if I lived in NYC however.


nebish - 5/17/2020 at 02:32 AM

Interactive national map with all counties color-coded to show where cases are declining or increasing:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/05/graphic-tracking-coronav irus-infections-us/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::ad d=SpecialEdition_20200515&rid=910A3A0C804D1C7F8D5B2B273F0E8738


tbomike - 5/19/2020 at 06:37 PM

Finally got a haircut today. And here in Ohio Governor Dewine just lifted the remaining stay at home order. About time.


tbomike - 5/19/2020 at 06:40 PM

And here. While this is from Italy but lots of states here have very similar age breakdown. I believe Massachusetts avg age of death is 82 and Florida very similar. End the lockdowns now. So why all this lunacy acting like we are all at risk? What a load of bs.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1106372/coronavirus-death-rate-by-age-g roup-italy/


piacere - 5/19/2020 at 07:26 PM

No...just the 82 year olds, who friggin BUILT this country.



gina - 5/19/2020 at 07:39 PM

quote:
Interactive national map with all counties color-coded to show where cases are declining or increasing:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/05/graphic-tracking-coronav irus-infections-us/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::ad d=SpecialEdition_20200515&rid=910A3A0C804D1C7F8D5B2B273F0E8738


We're decreasing here because everybody was told to stay home or risk getting it and die in 3 days. We saw the refrigerator morgue trucks with 800 bodies a day getting put in there. That scared people enough to stay home. Sometimes it has to get dramatic to make the point stay home and stop the spread.

The numbers here have followed the IMHE model so I think it will be true July 1 will be safe in metro NY, but they may open sooner. Right now quarantine extended till June 13. The model has been right so far, so the protesters should just wait and stop their demonstrations.

[Edited on 5/19/2020 by gina]


tbomike - 5/19/2020 at 08:24 PM

quote:
No...just the 82 year olds, who friggin BUILT this country.





Which we all know. And they still managed not to protect them very well.


PattyG - 5/19/2020 at 09:05 PM

Well here a statistic for you. Seven years ago my daughter had a miscarriage and lost her baby, or as republicans refer to it as a “late term abortion”. She gave birth last year to the only child she will ever have a beautiful baby girl. Her husband’s mother died of brain cancer when he was nineteen. My mother who was a nurse worked in infection control, she was only 82 and was at work the day before she was admitted to the ICU and was intubated and died three days later. My sister was a nurse and died when she was 32 from a staph infection she got from the hospital she worked at. My son is a diabetic and my husband has high blood pressure. My husband can still fit in the same suit we were married in so this is not an issue of obesity as well as my son. So my granddaughter only has one grandmother and that is me. Should I throw myself on the sword for Donald Trump’s stock market, a haircut, to go party at bar, go see a show? Anne Frank was isolated for over two years in an attic with 7 other people. If a child can endure that isolation should I cry because I can’t get my hair done? The pioneers were locked in their home for months during the winter, how about Valley Forge. Has this country become so weak that they are willing to sacrifice their own parents and grandparents for a haircut?

So truly if that is how you feel go to a Trump Rally, don't wear a mask. Go cruise around a hospital ICU with active virus patients without mask and then go to your family's house and cough in their faces. That way you get your haircut and sacrifice your parents and grandparents for the DT Stockmarket and consider yourself more of a patriot then the pioneers of this country or the healthcare workers who literally put their lives on the line to save people like you when you are sick and dying.


[Edited on 5/19/2020 by PattyG]

[Edited on 5/19/2020 by PattyG]


piacere - 5/19/2020 at 09:56 PM

quote:
quote:
No...just the 82 year olds, who friggin BUILT this country.





Which we all know. And they still managed not to protect them very well.


That's not what you said.


PattyG - 5/19/2020 at 10:09 PM

Well here in Georgia:


https://nypost.com/2020/05/19/georgia-agency-bashed-for-using-erroneous-cor onavirus-data/


nebish - 5/19/2020 at 10:38 PM

This is ironic, I'm about to leave to get my hair cut at 7:15.

I will be wearing a mask...I assume as required in Ohio, the lady cutting my hair will be as well. I will report back if it is of such interest.

My wife is 60 with a weakened immune system to having RA and the drugs she takes for it. Up until now she has only seen a very limited number of immediate family members. Until yesterday, she went to the garden center to get some outdoor plants for the house. She wore a mask, tries to stay away from people, has plenty hand sanitizer. She called a couple weeks ago about getting her hair done, said get me the first day in June you can. Her appointment is June 13th. They are pretty busy now.

People have to make their own decisions. People have to take precautions, but people have to choose what they want to do and not do with risks being what they are.

We aren't Trump lovers. Sure I voted for him 2016, won't be in 2020. My wife hates Trump and has an Obama t-shirt.

For me, for us, this had nothing to do with politics other than the fact we enjoy following political story lines and issues.

I'm getting my hair cut tonight. I'm sorry if that is going to upset some people. Stay sheltered in place if it makes you feel safe. I'm not going to berate you if you do. Everyone has to do what everyone has to do.


PattyG - 5/19/2020 at 11:13 PM

Look if it is important enough for you then go for it. For me getting my hair done is not that important. For the record I do not fear death I have seen enough of it to no longer fear it, but my granddaughter needs to grow up having known her only grandmother. I have no wish to spread this in any way if possible. If more people took it seriously it would not bother me but they don't. We usually take a ride around town and since Georgia is open people are out in droves and hardly anyone is wearing masks. Most people do not realize that when you sneeze hard the sprays comes out at a hundred miles an hour. When your mother worked in infectious control you learn these things. That person has the virus they have no symptoms does not cover their mouth and nose and is buying a toy for their kid. They leave the isle then a kid with asthma comes along and touches the toy that was just sneezed on. And on and on it goes. The kid had a mask on but no gloves and just scratched a small cut or wipes their eyes.

We have a governor who can't get his number's straight and a population who think it is a hoax. I am working from home and our CEO said that we will continue to do so. I work for an insurance company with tons of actuarial's. They are running the numbers and the numbers say stay home.


PhotoRon286 - 5/20/2020 at 12:24 AM

quote:
Well here a statistic for you. Seven years ago my daughter had a miscarriage and lost her baby, or as republicans refer to it as a “late term abortion”. She gave birth last year to the only child she will ever have a beautiful baby girl. Her husband’s mother died of brain cancer when he was nineteen. My mother who was a nurse worked in infection control, she was only 82 and was at work the day before she was admitted to the ICU and was intubated and died three days later. My sister was a nurse and died when she was 32 from a staph infection she got from the hospital she worked at. My son is a diabetic and my husband has high blood pressure. My husband can still fit in the same suit we were married in so this is not an issue of obesity as well as my son. So my granddaughter only has one grandmother and that is me. Should I throw myself on the sword for Donald Trump’s stock market, a haircut, to go party at bar, go see a show? Anne Frank was isolated for over two years in an attic with 7 other people. If a child can endure that isolation should I cry because I can’t get my hair done? The pioneers were locked in their home for months during the winter, how about Valley Forge. Has this country become so weak that they are willing to sacrifice their own parents and grandparents for a haircut?

So truly if that is how you feel go to a Trump Rally, don't wear a mask. Go cruise around a hospital ICU with active virus patients without mask and then go to your family's house and cough in their faces. That way you get your haircut and sacrifice your parents and grandparents for the DT Stockmarket and consider yourself more of a patriot then the pioneers of this country or the healthcare workers who literally put their lives on the line to save people like you when you are sick and dying.



Great post!

I got the news today that my son the EMT just got back from a three week deployment to NYC.

Now we wait to see the results of his antibody test when he gets one.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 12:30 AM

quote:
We usually take a ride around town and since Georgia is open people are out in droves and hardly anyone is wearing masks.


Can you post evidence/proof from more than one source that states that beyond any doubt Face masks stop this pathogen? It's not about what people think, or addressing their fears, does the face mask stop covid? because if the answer is, "well it limits it" then we are right back to square one with the "Flattening the curve" argument that was supposed to take the burden off hospitals and stop overcrowding (which never happened) And if face masks are the cure all, why did not the experts say this from day one?


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 01:09 AM

quote:
I don't mind using a mask. It isn't that big a deal.


That's not the point. Do they work?...Most of the evidence says no, the particulate is too small...The bandana as a face mask is almost a joke.


Stephen - 5/20/2020 at 01:31 AM

W/masks hindering identities like they are, video surveillance security systems are compromised in a big way - doesn’t seem to have been a spike in burglaries/thefts as part of the pandemic -
Pier 1 Imports, closing
JC Penny, same (240 stores)
Countless lives lost
No hugging, concerts, ballgames...
Not that I was there, but the Plague has nothing on the pandemic panic
Hopefully America will reopen soon


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 01:46 AM

quote:
Well here in Georgia:


https://nypost.com/2020/05/19/georgia-agency-bashed-for-using-erroneous-cor onavirus-data/


First:

"I suppose data could be manipulated. I was actually surprised that cases would drop as reopening are allowed to occur....almost sounds like right-wing spin. I am fully prepared to see at least mini-spikes and hot spots pop up, it only seemed logical and natural it would. Having cases go down while opening up seems illogical and a strange coincidence."


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 01:54 AM

quote:
quote:

We usually take a ride around town and since Georgia is open people are out in droves and hardly anyone is wearing masks.




Can you post evidence/proof from more than one source that states that beyond any doubt Face masks stop this pathogen? It's not about what people think, or addressing their fears, does the face mask stop covid? because if the answer is, "well it limits it" then we are right back to square one with the "Flattening the curve" argument that was supposed to take the burden off hospitals and stop overcrowding (which never happened) And if face masks are the cure all, why did not the experts say this from day one?


quote:
quote:
I don't mind using a mask. It isn't that big a deal.


That's not the point. Do they work?...Most of the evidence says no, the particulate is too small...The bandana as a face mask is almost a joke.


I wear a mask. I also think it's not a big deal. Even if 6 months or a year from now somebody says we were fools for wearing masks, I don't care, I'll be a fool. I think it makes sense.

There are some problems, it's not fool-proof. Virus can enter your eyes. Your fingers could be contaminated when you go to put on or take off your mask.

A business can require you to wear one. A bank can require you to take your hat off when you come in. A warehouse and manufacturing facility can require you to wear safety toe shoes and eye protection even for visitors.

It's fine. I usually wear a mask. I was in a hot semi trailer helping unload some donated items for a local non-profit. I started with a mask (hot and sweaty). I ended without a mask. But every other time I wear it.


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 02:06 AM

quote:
Look if it is important enough for you then go for it. For me getting my hair done is not that important. For the record I do not fear death I have seen enough of it to no longer fear it, but my granddaughter needs to grow up having known her only grandmother. I have no wish to spread this in any way if possible. If more people took it seriously it would not bother me but they don't. We usually take a ride around town and since Georgia is open people are out in droves and hardly anyone is wearing masks. Most people do not realize that when you sneeze hard the sprays comes out at a hundred miles an hour. When your mother worked in infectious control you learn these things. That person has the virus they have no symptoms does not cover their mouth and nose and is buying a toy for their kid. They leave the isle then a kid with asthma comes along and touches the toy that was just sneezed on. And on and on it goes. The kid had a mask on but no gloves and just scratched a small cut or wipes their eyes.

We have a governor who can't get his number's straight and a population who think it is a hoax. I am working from home and our CEO said that we will continue to do so. I work for an insurance company with tons of actuarial's. They are running the numbers and the numbers say stay home.



I'm fine with your point of view and opinion and bristly reaction. tbomike can reply to his own extent. I thought it was strange that I too was getting my hair cut today.

It wasn't that it was necessarily so important to me. I could've gone longer, I could've had my wife cut it, hell I could've just shaved it off.

Getting my hair cut is just like my wife going to the garden center. Or when we go out to eat for the first time. Or when I walk into a bank or the BMV for the first time. Or when I get on an airplane for the first time, hopefully next month.

I don't want to get infected and I don't want to infect anyone else. I don't want to be a hermit either. I'll take precautions in doing the things I do so hopefully those things don't happen, but I acknowledge the possibility exists. There are many risks we must live with and if this virus is going to be with us for the foreseeable future, or even extended future as some have estimated, I, and we all, need to figure out how to live with the threat of the virus in our lives.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 02:17 AM

quote:
even if it is pointless it is a statement that you give a damn, a sign of courtesy.


Interesting, if it is pointless to whom are you being courteous?


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 02:38 AM

quote:
Some people are really terrified and are clearly grateful for the gesture.


Mmmm. Too many News broadcasts where the Death totals in Spain are the lead story. Perhaps not wearing a mask could be an indicator that you are not afraid and are ready to get back to life....

Flip a coin


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 02:43 AM

I'm with BrerRabbit, I do it out of courtesy like I had posted about before. Customers are not required by the state to wear one (unless the business mandates patrons wear one, which they can do), but if all the employees have to do it...some of which probably don't like having to do it, I'll do it too with them.

I think it probably helps some, but even if it didn't...I'll pick another battle to fight another day. The mask really is fine. Some people will wear one, some people won't. I don't go as far as wear one when I hike and most people I pass also don't have one, but I have passed 1 person who was hiking in the woods with a mask on and I passed 3 women who all pulled up their masks when I passed them. So whatever...it's mask season. I think most of us can live with that for a while to see where this thing ends up going.


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 02:48 AM

So yeah, the haircut.

They lock the door so nobody can come in that they aren't ready for. It's a keyed deadbolt, they leave the key in it ,but I wonder about fire code on that.

You wait in your car until they call you. They checked my temperature upon entering, 100.4 or higher and you can't come in (that is per the state of Ohio). They sprayed my hands with something that I assumed was an alcohol product. The chair was still partially wet with disinfectant that was in the process of drying. They have shower curtains hanging from the ceiling between the chairs. 3 workers, all wearing face shields and 2 wearing masks. 4 patrons including me all wearing masks.

Lady that cut my hair is working 12 to 14 hour days right now M-F with one day off and some partial hours on Saturday.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 03:01 AM

quote:
Instead of being the big toughguy drill sergeant you could maybe relax show a little respect and empathy for those not as brave as you and adopt a silly social convention to ease the tension.


You do you and I will do me.


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 03:03 AM

quote:
quote:
Instead of being the big toughguy drill sergeant you could maybe relax show a little respect and empathy for those not as brave as you and adopt a silly social convention to ease the tension.


You do you and I will do me.


I laughed.


stormyrider - 5/20/2020 at 09:54 AM

Wearing a mask protects the next guy more than you. We all may be asymptomatic carriers. You should be grateful when your neighbor is wearing a mask. You should provide him with the same courtesy


piacere - 5/20/2020 at 10:10 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Instead of being the big toughguy drill sergeant you could maybe relax show a little respect and empathy for those not as brave as you and adopt a silly social convention to ease the tension.


You do you and I will do me.


I laughed.


Not me.

On the contrary.


cyclone88 - 5/20/2020 at 12:02 PM

quote:
Wearing a mask protects the next guy more than you. We all may be asymptomatic carriers. You should be grateful when your neighbor is wearing a mask. You should provide him with the same courtesy


I don't get the big deal of wearing a mask. There's no downside.

Stormy, The link you posted re the study of exactly what activities aerosolize the virus farther & longer was really helpful - singing more than running more than talking - & that the duration of being around potentially affected persons was more important than just passing them.

I've read some beach opening rules that allow sunbathing based on the assumption that sitting alone on a beach blanket is less risky than walking amidst a group of runners. The caution is not to sit there for 8 hours - more like 2.

So be a considerate human being & wear a mask when interacting w/others. As we keep being reminded, we're all in this together.




nebish - 5/20/2020 at 01:12 PM

For BigV:

quote:
Wearing a mask can significantly reduce coronavirus transmission, study on hamsters claims
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/19/coronavirus-wearing-a-mask-can-reduce-trans mission-by-75percent-new-study-claims.html



For Pierce:

It's ok if you don't want to do yourself, but if you do nobody will judge you.


Rusty - 5/20/2020 at 01:44 PM

I wear the mask - if for no other reason than to show support and solidarity with the overworked hospital staffs and even the grocery store clerks and cashiers. I'm honestly not sure how much good the mask does (so many conflicting reports and opinions - especially on the internet), but it shows (I hope) that I am taking the virus seriously and am wiling to do my own part in lessening its effects.

The "anti-maskers" don't worry me as much as those who "have had enough", and insist on assembling in large groups in spite of warnings of the virus. This past weekend, a crowd reported to number near 3,000 assembled for a block party in Volusia County, Florida. I should've KNOWN, but I never suspected that you could assemble so many obstinate and ... "questionably intelligent" souls in one spot. I don't care if these folks were black, white, green or chartreuse - all of their drivers license or SSI number should be taken (without arrest) so that they can be denied access to scarce ventilators should they develop serious symptoms. I still imagine that down the road - somebody (or group of somebodies) will file a lawsuit against the government for failing to protect them from their own stupidity. Yeah, stay tuned! It'll happen.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/20/us/florida-block-party-arrests/index.html


Stephen - 5/20/2020 at 03:31 PM

quote:
.

Like it or not the mouth and nose are on their way to becomng private parts.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by BrerRabbit]


So true, & so sad - this thing has kicked our butts from the onset - good observation


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 03:32 PM

quote:
Was working on trail last week - I wasnt masked - there was a young woman wearing a mask who went six feet off trail into brush to maintain distance.


"To maintain distance"...As in respecting the 6 ft. social distancing guideline? I do the same and you know, this simple of act of respect can be so easily accomplished without a mask!


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 03:37 PM

quote:
Deal is, effective or not, it is helping folks cope.


"Effective or not".....Good for you! Funny, the same people here who do not give a damn about others political feelings on this board and resort to epithets and name calling when a simple disagreement about the president arises are the same ones now preaching good, wholesome friendliness and respect toward others...Please. spare us this bullsh*t.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 04:36 PM

quote:
^ I get it, social change is irritating.


There is a huge difference between the evolution of agreed upon social behaviors and over reaction due solely to fear....But you are correct, the panic and the "change" some have adopted for themselves is extremely irritating.


piacere - 5/20/2020 at 04:59 PM

quote:
For BigV:

quote:
Wearing a mask can significantly reduce coronavirus transmission, study on hamsters claims
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/19/coronavirus-wearing-a-mask-can-reduce-trans mission-by-75percent-new-study-claims.html



For Pierce:

It's ok if you don't want to do yourself, but if you do nobody will judge you.


I'm not sure what you're saying.


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 05:37 PM

Nevermind. If you don't get why I laughed. Probably good we all don't think alike.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 05:46 PM

quote:
quote:
"The new normal"How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?

I used CA Gov. Gavin Newsom's description of what restaurants will look like in my post.


There's a problem right off the bat, like California is a gleaming example of how ANYTHING should be done.


tbomike - 5/20/2020 at 05:48 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
"The new normal"How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?

I used CA Gov. Gavin Newsom's description of what restaurants will look like in my post.


There's a problem right off the bat, like California is a gleaming example of how ANYTHING should be done.


Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more. And no that does not mean I will vote for Trump. Most probably will mean I won't vote at all.


tbomike - 5/20/2020 at 05:54 PM

So this happened during the lockdown. So explain to me again how we were protecting those in nursing homes?

5,368 dead and counting: An investigation of state failures as crisis rampaged through N.J. nursing homes

https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/05/5300-dead-and-counting-an-investigat ion-of-state-failures-as-crisis-rampaged-through-nj-nursing-homes.html




BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 07:26 PM

quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?


piacere - 5/20/2020 at 07:31 PM

quote:
Nevermind. If you don't get why I laughed. Probably good we all don't think alike.


I get why you laughed. Two interpretations in what he wrote.One could've been interpreted as humorous, the other one not. I understand. I went with not.

...and it's "piacere". Italian.


pops42 - 5/20/2020 at 07:37 PM

quote:
quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?
You could infect and possibly kill someone or several people with your careless attitude, how does this relate to abortion?.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 07:39 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?
You could infect and possibly kill someone or several people with your careless attitude, how does this relate to abortion?.


Dude I have lost all respect for you with your comment of "I hope you lose everything"..Take a hike


stormyrider - 5/20/2020 at 07:52 PM

quote:
And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?



no, it doesn't apply to masks. Masks protect other people.

If you are by yourself on a trail or in the street, fine.

But if you are in a store, breathing on items etc, you are affecting other people.

Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


pops42 - 5/20/2020 at 08:39 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?
You could infect and possibly kill someone or several people with your careless attitude, how does this relate to abortion?.


Dude I have lost all respect for you with your comment of "I hope you lose everything"..Take a hike
Dude I have no respect for YOU, for your support trump and his agenda of destroying this country, I hope YOU suffer for your choices.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 09:22 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?
You could infect and possibly kill someone or several people with your careless attitude, how does this relate to abortion?.


Dude I have lost all respect for you with your comment of "I hope you lose everything"..Take a hike
Dude I have no respect for YOU, for your support trump and his agenda of destroying this country, I hope YOU suffer for your choices.


You remain a real class act.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 09:43 PM

quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.


pops42 - 5/20/2020 at 10:38 PM

quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.
if YOU are COVID19 positive, you likely will not know it, so not wearing a mask or keeping a distance from people WILL infect/possible kill others. YOU politicizing this issue is not only dumb but dangerous. saying "liberals" are the ones being too cautious and considerate of others lives and health is also like admitting, conservative trump lovers are inconsiderate, wreck-less morons, who think only of themselves. BTW, your statement that Biden being of of the same moral character as trump was pretty dumb too, big veetus.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by pops42]


2112 - 5/20/2020 at 11:18 PM

quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.


I was just reading my copy of the Constitution, and for the life of me I couldn't find anywhere any mention of having the right to not have to wear a mask. Can you please direct me to where I can find that right in the Constitution?


piacere - 5/20/2020 at 11:32 PM

quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.


Vince, I agree with you damn near all the time but, as I may have said earlier, not here.
Let me ask you this, and mind you, I'm not concerned all that much, just mildly curious, after all, you do you and I'll do me...
Are you not wearing a mask BC it's your right not to, a, b, there's no proof it works aside from alleviating fear and paranoia, c, the whole mess is overblown by the media. .or some other reason?
In all this time, what, 8, 10 weeks? I haven't asked one person why they don't wear one. You may have answered definitively prior but I missed it.
Thanks


BIGV - 5/21/2020 at 02:08 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.


Vince, I agree with you damn near all the time but, as I may have said earlier, not here.
Let me ask you this, and mind you, I'm not concerned all that much, just mildly curious, after all, you do you and I'll do me...
Are you not wearing a mask BC it's your right not to, a, b, there's no proof it works aside from alleviating fear and paranoia, c, the whole mess is overblown by the media. .or some other reason?
In all this time, what, 8, 10 weeks? I haven't asked one person why they don't wear one. You may have answered definitively prior but I missed it.
Thanks


No worries and your answer is right there "there's no proof it works aside from alleviating fear and paranoia,... the whole mess is overblown by the media". Both of these. If the only effect from wearing a mask is "alleviating fear" then the media has won and we've all lost. Everyday is Halloween! But, I will add, I certainly respect the social distancing requests and practice that....


MartinD28 - 5/21/2020 at 11:49 AM

There's a lot of noise in this thread. We have 2 really good sources of information on this site (cyclone & stormyrider). Their jobs & specilizations are certainly closer subject matter experts than the rest of the "specialists" on this topic. I'll defer to these 2 posters. Thanks to the 2 of you for your input and clarifications.


nebish - 5/21/2020 at 12:39 PM

quote:


Save your fight for the vaccines that are being rushed through and wll be forced upon us without adequate testing. Then you may well find me in your corner, assuming your stand on rights includes vaccination. The vaccine stuff is going to be some serious controversy - this mask business is nothing compared to what is coming.


I'm actually concerned also.

Because of the rush, are dangers going to be overlooked in the to push this thing out and mass vaccinate everyone? It's going to have to come out in stages, so the first ones to get it will provide some further evidence of it's safety and effectiveness.

I really don't like to take medicine for anything, 9 times out of 10 I just deal with whatever. I got a flu shot one year and got sick twice that winter. Maybe not related, but I've never had another flu shot since.

I would want to get this vaccine, but really, I want to see how it goes first. I totally share your thoughts BrerRabbit.


cyclone88 - 5/21/2020 at 12:58 PM

quote:
There's a lot of noise in this thread. We have 2 really good sources of information on this site (cyclone & stormyrider). Their jobs & specilizations are certainly closer subject matter experts than the rest of the "specialists" on this topic. I'll defer to these 2 posters. Thanks to the 2 of you for your input and clarifications.

The entire time I was reading the last 2 pages of this thread, I kept thinking "stormyrider has explained the importance of masks earlier so why on earth are people demanding scientific facts?" Of course, I realize that the scientific fact has to come from a source acceptable to the questioner & then the provider of the source has to be interrogated as though they were defending a PhD dissertation, but I don't think we're going to get a more solid source than a practicing cardiologist.

Thanks, Martin, for your confidence, but we all have opinions. I participate in threads I find interesting or in which I might be able to clarify something or start topics that interest me (I'm fairly certain I'm the only one who really cared about impeachment - the process not the outcome). I have expertise in a couple of areas & point it out when it's relevant, but don't expect anyone to defer to me. I look forward to stormyrider's posts on many topics & appreciate his willingness to explain medicalese in basic language.

Most of us have expertise in something - a lot of us ABB followers from the 1970s have been working for a long time - so I weigh their comments more heavily than others. I also just skip comments from lazy noisemakers who can't be bothered to look up the most basic things & I appreciate the jokes in an attempt to lighten up or deflect the nasty place the thread is headed.

Mostly, I post my opinions. On the topic of masks, for the life of me, I don't know what the downside of wearing one around people not living in our households is. Presumably, the goal for all of us is to survive COVID19, make our way out into the world (although there's not much open yet in NYC), & eventually be rid of this infectious disease. If wearing a mask is useful, why not do it?

Thanks Martin for your posts about the market/economy & amazing musical knowledge. I defer to you, but I don't understand why anyone thinks GA was taking the lead in jump-starting the national economy by opening tattoo parlors, beach shops, & patio restaurants at 50% capacity. I can't imagine why anyone other than seasonal business owners would go to the expense of opening when their laid off employees are getting unemployment benefits (some at even higher rates than their former salaries) & rent is forgiven through July 31 when they have no guarantee patrons are ready to return. That's a whole thread!!!



piacere - 5/21/2020 at 02:18 PM

quote:
There's a lot of noise in this thread. We have 2 really good sources of information on this site (cyclone & stormyrider). Their jobs & specilizations are certainly closer subject matter experts than the rest of the "specialists" on this topic. I'll defer to these 2 posters. Thanks to the 2 of you for your input and clarifications.


What...no gina?

Seriously though, with all respect to those two (much deserved), whose posts I pay attention to, I defer to my PCP and cardiologist. I mean, who doesn't?
In the end, wearing one or not is a choice.


tbomike - 5/21/2020 at 06:10 PM

INteresting. Will see where it goes.

https://news.yahoo.com/as-more-states-reopen-georgia-defies-predictions-of- coronavirus-resurgence-whats-the-lesson-for-the-rest-of-the-country-1647348 15.html


stormyrider - 5/21/2020 at 06:47 PM

quote:
INteresting. Will see where it goes.

https://news.yahoo.com/as-more-states-reopen-georgia-defies-predictions-of- coronavirus-resurgence-whats-the-lesson-for-the-rest-of-the-country-1647348 15.html


yes
Florida and Texas have clearly increased since re-opening.

and this, from the article

quote:
In a sign, perhaps, of things to come, churches in both Texas and Georgia that briefly reopened for in-person worship services have had to close again as the virus spread in their pews. Holy Ghost Catholic Church in Houston closed after five leaders tested positive last weekend, following the death of one priest who had been diagnosed with pneumonia. In Ringgold, Ga., Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle started in-person services again in late April but stopped on May 11 after learning that members of several families had contracted the virus. And on Tuesday the CDC released a report about an outbreak in March at a rural Arkansas church: Of the 92 people who attended the church between March 6 and March 11, 35 tested positive and three died, the report said. Investigators found that 26 other contacts of these churchgoers later tested positive and one died.


MartinD28 - 5/21/2020 at 08:10 PM

quote:
quote:
INteresting. Will see where it goes.

https://news.yahoo.com/as-more-states-reopen-georgia-defies-predictions-of- coronavirus-resurgence-whats-the-lesson-for-the-rest-of-the-country-1647348 15.html


yes
Florida and Texas have clearly increased since re-opening.

and this, from the article

quote:
In a sign, perhaps, of things to come, churches in both Texas and Georgia that briefly reopened for in-person worship services have had to close again as the virus spread in their pews. Holy Ghost Catholic Church in Houston closed after five leaders tested positive last weekend, following the death of one priest who had been diagnosed with pneumonia. In Ringgold, Ga., Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle started in-person services again in late April but stopped on May 11 after learning that members of several families had contracted the virus. And on Tuesday the CDC released a report about an outbreak in March at a rural Arkansas church: Of the 92 people who attended the church between March 6 and March 11, 35 tested positive and three died, the report said. Investigators found that 26 other contacts of these churchgoers later tested positive and one died.



And that paragraph certainly seems like cause & effect.


pops42 - 5/21/2020 at 08:22 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
INteresting. Will see where it goes.

https://news.yahoo.com/as-more-states-reopen-georgia-defies-predictions-of- coronavirus-resurgence-whats-the-lesson-for-the-rest-of-the-country-1647348 15.html


yes
Florida and Texas have clearly increased since re-opening.

and this, from the article

quote:
In a sign, perhaps, of things to come, churches in both Texas and Georgia that briefly reopened for in-person worship services have had to close again as the virus spread in their pews. Holy Ghost Catholic Church in Houston closed after five leaders tested positive last weekend, following the death of one priest who had been diagnosed with pneumonia. In Ringgold, Ga., Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle started in-person services again in late April but stopped on May 11 after learning that members of several families had contracted the virus. And on Tuesday the CDC released a report about an outbreak in March at a rural Arkansas church: Of the 92 people who attended the church between March 6 and March 11, 35 tested positive and three died, the report said. Investigators found that 26 other contacts of these churchgoers later tested positive and one died.



And that paragraph certainly seems like cause & effect.
And the storms and flooding have not even begun yet,


nebish - 5/22/2020 at 12:26 AM

quote:
according to a database maintained by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Georgia’s rolling seven-day average of new daily cases — an important metric that helps to balance out daily fluctuations in reporting — has fallen for three weeks in a row.

Those figures are undisputed — despite a clumsy effort by state officials to present the data in a way that made them look even better. And they are a lot better than the experience in two other states that are moving to end lockdowns, Florida and Texas.

For the seven-day period ending on May 4, Georgia’s daily average stood at 746 cases.

By May 11, the average had fallen 12.6 percent to 652 daily cases.

By May 18, it had dropped to 612 cases, a further decline of 6.1 percent.

At the same time, Georgia’s seven-day average of COVID-19 hospitalizations fell from 1,432 on May 4, to 1,239 on May 11, to 1,049 on May 18 — a three-week decline of 26.7 percent.


I wondered about Georgia manipulating data and PattyG posted about it. But AJC is keeping their own numbers that shows decline.


nebish - 5/22/2020 at 12:34 AM

Driving home tonight, I have never, never seen the parking lot so packed at our TJ Max. I’m like ‘holy **** what is going on at TJ Max?’ My wife says there was a story on the news about a line as long as a football field of people waiting to get in.

Our mall parking lot had decent amount of cars, except Penny’s is closed. Most restaurants also had decent amount of cars. I can’t say busy because I’ve seen busy, but a couple dozen cars at big restaurants.

I was surprised to see how busy these places appear to be. Youngstown area Ohio.


PhotoRon286 - 5/22/2020 at 01:51 AM

My son is an EMT and on Tuesday returned froma three week deployment in NYC.

His company has already told staff to expect to deploy to the South and Midwest this summer as they expect the hospitals to be overwhelmed after opening up before the guidelines were met.


StratDal - 5/22/2020 at 02:20 AM

The 805 started opening up today - Phase 2. We'll see. Right now, I'll just stick to going to the supermarkets along with a few restaurants for take out. Might take my truck to the car wash.

Just hope everyone out and about is safe and not stupid. The operative word is "hope"...


nebish - 5/22/2020 at 08:57 PM

Last week on 5/14 I incorrectly said that Ohio was only conducting on average 4546 test per day. I was averaging all cells instead of just a 7 day average. So for 5/14 that number of average tests per day was 8185 and as of 5/21 it is 9400 7 day average. Ohio has doubled the number of tests daily since May 1st.

Our cases remain plateaued off of their respective highs.

On our rolling 7 day average the highest daily increase average was 562 on May 15th, our previous high was 623 on May 9th and earlier 920 April 21st. Today it is 548.

Our rolling 14 day average case increase high was 606 on May 12th, our previous high was 688 May 1st. Today it is 555.

21 day high 662 on May 8th. Today that 3 week average in daily case increases is 573.

After persistent hospitalizations between 1000-1100, the last week have seen daily hospitalized patients in the upper 800 to lower 900 range. Our number of patients in ICU one month ago was 524, today that figure is 362 with consistent and steady decline.

My county is averaging about 15 new cases a day, half of what we were averaging at the start of this month. We had been averaging about 1-2 new patients admitted to our hospitals, that average has ticked up to about 2-2.5 now. 2-4 Mahoning County resisidents are lost each day, we've lost a total of 163 lives. Our population is about 229,000 residents. We are 4th in the state for deaths and 7th for cases. 69% of the county's total deaths are from nursing homes.


tbomike - 5/23/2020 at 04:31 PM

Dr. Anthony Fauci says staying closed for too long could cause ‘irreparable damage’

Stay-at-home orders intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus could end up causing “irreparable damage” if imposed for too long, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said.
“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” he told CNBC.


“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” Fauci said during an interview with CNBC’s Meg Tirrell on “Halftime Report.”

He said the U.S. had to institute severe measures because Covid-19 cases were exploding then. “But now is the time, depending upon where you are and what your situation is, to begin to seriously look at reopening the economy, reopening the country to try to get back to some degree of normal.”
untry to try to get back to some degree of normal.”

However, Fauci also cautioned states against reducing social distancing measures too quickly, adding they must take “very significant precautions.”

“In general, I think most of the country is doing it in a prudent way,” he said. “There are obviously some situations where people might be jumping over that. I just say please proceed with caution if you’re going to do that.”


tbomike - 5/23/2020 at 04:32 PM

Dr Birx.

Birx announces ‘dramatic decline’ in coronavirus cases across the states

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/birx-announces-dramatic-decline-in-coronav irus-deaths-hospitalizations-across-the-country


tbomike - 5/23/2020 at 04:34 PM

The state of Vermont has 2 covid patients in the hospital now. But still on partial lockdown. Insanity.

https://www.healthvermont.gov/response/coronavirus-covid-19/current-activit y-vermont


Jerry - 5/24/2020 at 01:54 AM

quote:
The 805 started opening up today - Phase 2. We'll see. Right now, I'll just stick to going to the supermarkets along with a few restaurants for take out. Might take my truck to the car wash.

Just hope everyone out and about is safe and not stupid. The operative word is "hope"...
Went today to a market in Hawkinsville (about 35 miles from here) to replenish the meat supply. They require masks to enter, provide gloves to those who don't have them, and allow only 10 customers in the store at one time. All employees wear masks and gloves.
You get a personal sales rep at the door and he/she handles the transactions from start to walking it to the register.

I feel that as businesses open up again, that's the policy they should enforce.

Rusty--If you know how to get to Hawkinsville, go to M&T Meats. My wife declared we are no longer going out to get steaks.


pops42 - 5/24/2020 at 02:44 PM

quote:
quote:
The 805 started opening up today - Phase 2. We'll see. Right now, I'll just stick to going to the supermarkets along with a few restaurants for take out. Might take my truck to the car wash.

Just hope everyone out and about is safe and not stupid. The operative word is "hope"...
Went today to a market in Hawkinsville (about 35 miles from here) to replenish the meat supply. They require masks to enter, provide gloves to those who don't have them, and allow only 10 customers in the store at one time. All employees wear masks and gloves.
You get a personal sales rep at the door and he/she handles the transactions from start to walking it to the register.

I feel that as businesses open up again, that's the policy they should enforce.

Rusty--If you know how to get to Hawkinsville, go to M&T Meats. My wife declared we are no longer going out to get steaks.
Lets hope your meats were not infected by covid19 infected workers.


nebish - 5/26/2020 at 02:46 AM

quote:
Lets hope your meats were not infected by covid19 infected workers.


Always the optimist.


nebish - 5/26/2020 at 02:51 AM

quote:
Dr. Anthony Fauci says staying closed for too long could cause ‘irreparable damage’

Stay-at-home orders intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus could end up causing “irreparable damage” if imposed for too long, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said.
“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” he told CNBC.


“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” Fauci said during an interview with CNBC’s Meg Tirrell on “Halftime Report.”

He said the U.S. had to institute severe measures because Covid-19 cases were exploding then. “But now is the time, depending upon where you are and what your situation is, to begin to seriously look at reopening the economy, reopening the country to try to get back to some degree of normal.”
untry to try to get back to some degree of normal.”

However, Fauci also cautioned states against reducing social distancing measures too quickly, adding they must take “very significant precautions.”

“In general, I think most of the country is doing it in a prudent way,” he said. “There are obviously some situations where people might be jumping over that. I just say please proceed with caution if you’re going to do that.”


If you wait long enough these people will state opinions all over the map and contradict themselves, even Fauci.

We are all only human. Nobody really knows.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 03:02 AM

quote:
Nobody really knows.


This has been my stated belief from day one


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 11:32 AM

quote:
quote:
Dr. Anthony Fauci says staying closed for too long could cause ‘irreparable damage’

Stay-at-home orders intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus could end up causing “irreparable damage” if imposed for too long, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said.
“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” he told CNBC.


“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” Fauci said during an interview with CNBC’s Meg Tirrell on “Halftime Report.”

He said the U.S. had to institute severe measures because Covid-19 cases were exploding then. “But now is the time, depending upon where you are and what your situation is, to begin to seriously look at reopening the economy, reopening the country to try to get back to some degree of normal.”
untry to try to get back to some degree of normal.”

However, Fauci also cautioned states against reducing social distancing measures too quickly, adding they must take “very significant precautions.”

“In general, I think most of the country is doing it in a prudent way,” he said. “There are obviously some situations where people might be jumping over that. I just say please proceed with caution if you’re going to do that.”


If you wait long enough these people will state opinions all over the map and contradict themselves, even Fauci.

We are all only human. Nobody really knows.


What we do know is that cases & deaths continue to go up. That should tell us something. And in some of the states that have opened up in some form, the trends have reversed and are heading back up. Do people really wonder why?

So, nobody may know, but in the end, the math doesn't care and life either goes on or doesn't. And a pandemic will continue to cause destruction regardless of how many people go pray in churches or do shots in a bar.


cyclone88 - 5/26/2020 at 01:45 PM

quote:
What we do know is that cases & deaths continue to go up. That should tell us something. And in some of the states that have opened up in some form, the trends have reversed and are heading back up. Do people really wonder why?

It does make one wonder what state could possibly "guarantee" a full house - no social distancing - for the RNC in late August should Trump decide NC is moving too slowly or the NC governor doesn't relax seating capacity based on the health & safety information he examines. FL, TX, & GA are all mentioned as possible replacements suggesting their governors will turn a blind eye to whatever spikes may appear in the next few months. The price of breaking a contract w/the City of Charlotte, of course, is nothing to a pres using Other People's Money or no consideration for legal obligations.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 03:14 PM

quote:
quote:
What we do know is that cases & deaths continue to go up. That should tell us something. And in some of the states that have opened up in some form, the trends have reversed and are heading back up. Do people really wonder why?

It does make one wonder what state could possibly "guarantee" a full house - no social distancing - for the RNC in late August should Trump decide NC is moving too slowly or the NC governor doesn't relax seating capacity based on the health & safety information he examines. FL, TX, & GA are all mentioned as possible replacements suggesting their governors will turn a blind eye to whatever spikes may appear in the next few months. The price of breaking a contract w/the City of Charlotte, of course, is nothing to a pres using Other People's Money or no consideration for legal obligations.

I think there's a lot of bluster behind Dr. Trump's threat. Think about this - how many delegates would really feel good and feel safe hanging out for several days in a 20,000 seat or whatever size arena and doing a bunch of side partying with fellow delegates? You wonder if they think the dangers will...puff one day it'll be gone as the good doctor says, and it'll coincide with his crowning as the GOP candidate?

How many of you would want to attend a political event like this? No different at a big venue like MSG or a large outside shed.


cyclone88 - 5/26/2020 at 04:30 PM

quote:
I think there's a lot of bluster behind Dr. Trump's threat. Think about this - how many delegates would really feel good and feel safe hanging out for several days in a 20,000 seat or whatever size arena and doing a bunch of side partying with fellow delegates? You wonder if they think the dangers will...puff one day it'll be gone as the good doctor says, and it'll coincide with his crowning as the GOP candidate?

Yes, a lot of bluster & bullying, but his disciples don't really buy that COVID19 exists or that social distancing makes a difference. The same people that are marching on state capitols shoulder to shoulder & ignoring mask & distancing policies in the newly re-opened states might love cheering him on in a crowded venue. Trump's invincible & so are they or so they believe. Once again, it's Trump's obsession w/numbers. He doesn't want to look out into a 50% capacity arena (or worse have TV camera shots of one); he wants 110% so he can have a crowd even larger than his inauguration (not physically possible except in his mind).


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 05:12 PM

quote:
How many of you would want to attend a political event like this? No different at a big venue like MSG or a large outside shed.


Not yet. But that would be MY choice.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 05:39 PM

quote:
quote:
I think there's a lot of bluster behind Dr. Trump's threat. Think about this - how many delegates would really feel good and feel safe hanging out for several days in a 20,000 seat or whatever size arena and doing a bunch of side partying with fellow delegates? You wonder if they think the dangers will...puff one day it'll be gone as the good doctor says, and it'll coincide with his crowning as the GOP candidate?

Yes, a lot of bluster & bullying, but his disciples don't really buy that COVID19 exists or that social distancing makes a difference. The same people that are marching on state capitols shoulder to shoulder & ignoring mask & distancing policies in the newly re-opened states might love cheering him on in a crowded venue. Trump's invincible & so are they or so they believe. Once again, it's Trump's obsession w/numbers. He doesn't want to look out into a 50% capacity arena (or worse have TV camera shots of one); he wants 110% so he can have a crowd even larger than his inauguration (not physically possible except in his mind).


Question, cyclone - Can the RNC have attendees sign some sort of a liability waiver if those who choose to attend and contract Covid so that the RNC doesn't take responsibility? Same question for NC?


cyclone88 - 5/26/2020 at 09:15 PM

quote:
Question, cyclone - Can the RNC have attendees sign some sort of a liability waiver if those who choose to attend and contract Covid so that the RNC doesn't take responsibility? Same question for NC?


Short answer: NO. You can't consent to something that a state has mandated against.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 09:54 PM

So a lot to ponder.

Who knows where the pandemic will be at time of lead up to and during time frame of convention. How many more cases and deaths? What will be the culture in 2 months - rebel for "freedom" vs believe in science and take precautions of remaining healthy?

The state has to be willing to allow a convention a couple months from now. A lot of logistics goes into these events. Planning has to occur with contingencies in place. If NC says no, can another state other than Trump's state of mind host a convention in this time frame?

Delegates attend at their own risk. If they do attend, will they do social distancing and wear masks. Think about fearless leader not wearing a mask and 90 + pct of the audience doing this - not an optic that Trump would want because it would show an acknowledgement of reality & not the hoax he wanted America to believe and that it hasn't disappeared as he said it would. Or would the audience just play follow the leader and do as he does?

If delegates attend, and numbers contract Covid, where does this leave Trump & GOP? These delegates will go running for medical help knowing they risked their own health and safety to attend an event probably too early in the cycle.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 10:00 PM

quote:
quote:
Question, cyclone - Can the RNC have attendees sign some sort of a liability waiver if those who choose to attend and contract Covid so that the RNC doesn't take responsibility? Same question for NC?


Short answer: NO. You can't consent to something that a state has mandated against.




Sorry for the follow up, but take the state out of the equation if this is possible. If NC or any other state has not mandated against, then is there liability or liability waiver potential for RNC given the live pandemic and known risks? If answer = yes, is this something a political party would consider for an event like this or practical?

Or maybe this is just too hypothetical.


tcatanesi - 5/26/2020 at 10:59 PM

"I love the Great State of North Carolina, so much so that I insisted on having the Republican National Convention in Charlotte at the end of August," Trump said in a series of tweets. "Unfortunately, Democrat Governor, @RoyCooperNC is still in Shutdown mood & unable to guarantee that by August we will be allowed full attendance in the Arena. In other words, we would be spending millions of dollars building the Arena to a very high standard without even knowing if the Democrat Governor would allow the Republican Party to fully occupy the space."


Yes, he loves the state of North Carolina so much that he wants the citizens to endanger their lives to satisfy his ego by allowing "full attendance in the Arena."

WTF is "Shutdown mood"??


cyclone88 - 5/26/2020 at 11:48 PM

quote:
Sorry for the follow up, but take the state out of the equation if this is possible. If NC or any other state has not mandated against, then is there liability or liability waiver potential for RNC given the live pandemic and known risks? If answer = yes, is this something a political party would consider for an event like this or practical?

Or maybe this is just too hypothetical.


You've hit upon hot legal topics. Not a day goes by that there isn't a webinar by the ABA, state, or city bar association addressing some aspect of COVID19 - liability, force majeur, enforceability & indemnification of leases, contracts & insurance, impossibility & conflicts between international laws. I got a notice for one this week re the the question of criminal liability (negligence to manslaughter) should someone intentionally fail to disclose their testing status & knowingly put themselves in a position to infect others (much like not disclosing HIV status to a potential sex partner).

A state is always going to have a compelling interest in protecting its occupants. National political conventions have the unique circumstance of people coming into the city/state from all 50 states plus territories all of which have different COVID19 statistics & policies over a varying amount of time & staying for varying duration. That alone increases risk to a state's citizens exponentially. There's no way (so far) to absolutely identify to a judicial standard how a person contracted COVID19 at a conference - the main events, a hospitality suite, the flight out, shuttle bus ride from the airport, hotel, restaurant, rental car, or a person - so a blanket waiver for the sponsor (the RNC) would essentially fail.

Although there are projections on which national, state, & local leadership in government & private sectors rely for short-term planning, there aren't any that I know of that can guarantee that social distancing wouldn't apply to any specific venue in late August given the broad range of characteristics of attendees.





cyclone88 - 5/27/2020 at 12:14 AM

quote:
So a lot to ponder.

Who knows where the pandemic will be at time of lead up to and during time frame of convention. How many more cases and deaths? What will be the culture in 2 months - rebel for "freedom" vs believe in science and take precautions of remaining healthy?

The state has to be willing to allow a convention a couple months from now. A lot of logistics goes into these events. Planning has to occur with contingencies in place. If NC says no, can another state other than Trump's state of mind host a convention in this time frame?


We're talking Trump & bluster. The RNC has budgeted for the convention. Trump - the great dealmaker - is acting like he's personally negotiating a lease where for "millions" in buildout, the "gate" is guaranteed. (The "gate" in this case is asses in seats for TV cameras).

The threshold of capacity is set by whatever the state's policy is for COVID19 statistics. Unless a state like TX says "we're open at 100% capacity no matter how many new cases, hospitalizations, & deaths," a state is going to have some capacity cap that isn't predictable now for late August. As I understand it, NC hasn't said it's not holding the convention; it's said the capacity of the arena in August is undetermined.

There are some people here who may know just how quickly & costly it would be to turn an arena into a convention site & back again given that stages/sets are built/struck all the time for shows.


2112 - 5/27/2020 at 02:07 AM

quote:
quote:
So a lot to ponder.

Who knows where the pandemic will be at time of lead up to and during time frame of convention. How many more cases and deaths? What will be the culture in 2 months - rebel for "freedom" vs believe in science and take precautions of remaining healthy?

The state has to be willing to allow a convention a couple months from now. A lot of logistics goes into these events. Planning has to occur with contingencies in place. If NC says no, can another state other than Trump's state of mind host a convention in this time frame?


We're talking Trump & bluster. The RNC has budgeted for the convention. Trump - the great dealmaker - is acting like he's personally negotiating a lease where for "millions" in buildout, the "gate" is guaranteed. (The "gate" in this case is asses in seats for TV cameras).

The threshold of capacity is set by whatever the state's policy is for COVID19 statistics. Unless a state like TX says "we're open at 100% capacity no matter how many new cases, hospitalizations, & deaths," a state is going to have some capacity cap that isn't predictable now for late August. As I understand it, NC hasn't said it's not holding the convention; it's said the capacity of the arena in August is undetermined.

There are some people here who may know just how quickly & costly it would be to turn an arena into a convention site & back again given that stages/sets are built/struck all the time for shows.


If they can't have full capacity, then they can always talk to Clint Eastwood about addressing empty chairs during a Republican conversation.


Jerry - 5/27/2020 at 02:37 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
The 805 started opening up today - Phase 2. We'll see. Right now, I'll just stick to going to the supermarkets along with a few restaurants for take out. Might take my truck to the car wash.

Just hope everyone out and about is safe and not stupid. The operative word is "hope"...
Went today to a market in Hawkinsville (about 35 miles from here) to replenish the meat supply. They require masks to enter, provide gloves to those who don't have them, and allow only 10 customers in the store at one time. All employees wear masks and gloves.
You get a personal sales rep at the door and he/she handles the transactions from start to walking it to the register.

I feel that as businesses open up again, that's the policy they should enforce.

Rusty--If you know how to get to Hawkinsville, go to M&T Meats. My wife declared we are no longer going out to get steaks.
Lets hope your meats were not infected by covid19 infected workers.


Well Pops, even if you get pork with the trichinosis cysts in it, if you cook it right, you don't get hurt.

How was your ham sandwich the other day? You do know that hogs like to roll in their own crap and eat garbage?
But they do make tasty sausage.


adhill58 - 5/27/2020 at 09:49 PM

I get the argument that not all masks are effective as others, and since there are still shortages, the health workers should get the best ones.

What I don't get is acting like being asked to wear a mask is like having your foot amputated. It may not be proven to stop every case of transmission, it may never be PROVEN that they stop any transmission. However, it is not hard to put on a mask when you go inside a public place. It just isn't hard to do. If there is a chance that you may be an asymptomatic carrier, which is possible unless you get tested every day, it really is the right thing to do. If you would want an ER nurse who may have just treated someone with this or any other contagion to wear a mask around you if you had to go to the ER, you should really want to wear a mask around other people.

It is not control of the masses, if nobody gets fined or imprisoned for not doing it, which they don't. It is basically a request of decency.

I don't wear a mask in public because I have been forced to, I wear one because I choose to be thoughtful of the possibility that I could unknowingly spread this virus.

I think of the unbelievable guilt of the staff members who think they may have been the ones to bring it into a nursing home. I couldn't live with myself if I got someone sick because I thought wearing a mask was too much hassle.

Even if masks just are a visual reminder that things are not normal and social distancing which is proven to help should be followed, then wearing masks can help.

I feel like a lot (not all) of the protests across the board have been for the "freedom to not really give a sh!t about anyone else" or to prove that "nobody controls me".

I don't want people to be controlled by wearing masks in public, I would appreciate them to have the self-control to wear masks in public.


cyclone88 - 5/27/2020 at 10:51 PM

quote:
What I don't get is acting like being asked to wear a mask is like having your foot amputated.

100%. I've never understood the downside of wearing a mask.

The only inconvenience I've come up w/is that the ill-mannered will essentially be forced to cover their sneezes & coughs & be unable to use the public sidewalks as their personal spitting ground. Beyond that, I've got nothing.


nebish - 5/28/2020 at 03:01 AM

For the past 10 days Ohio is still in the 8000-9000 daily test range. Supposedly we have the capacity with the machines to run over 20,000 a day, but the components and the labor to run them is still lacking. The national guard is going to test all nursing home staff and residents who may've been exposed or suspected of being exposed in the coming days so will have to see if that effects the overall testing number. We have almost 1000 nursing homes.

New daily cases continue to range between 500-600. We continue to have about 900 patients a day in the hospital and ICU patients of 313 is the lowest it's been in 2 months. Daily deaths continue to be about 40 per day with the 7 day average sometimes dipping lower and sometimes jumping higher.

My county is seeing consistent new cases in the 14-16 range, about half of what it was 3 weeks ago. Hospitalizations are ticking up to about 3 a day now, the highest it's been since May 1. We had been about 1.5 to 2 per day just a week or two ago. Deaths continue at about 2-3 a day, down from 5-6 a day earlier this month.


nebish - 5/30/2020 at 10:35 PM

This week I heard:

According to some "experts" reporting for Journal Science said 6' distance might not be enough, but wear masks.

Then the WHO says if you are healthy you only need to wear a mask if you are caring for somebody with covid.

And Dr Fauci says we might have a deployable vaccine by November-December, which when Trump has suggested that he got laughed at and Fauci himself has said repeatedly that most likely would take 12-18 months, or longer to develop.

So while everyone else is listening to the experts you can wake me up when they know what the hell they are talking about.


cyclone88 - 6/3/2020 at 02:42 PM

quote:
We're talking Trump & bluster. The RNC has budgeted for the convention. Trump - the great dealmaker - is acting like he's personally negotiating a lease where for "millions" in buildout, the "gate" is guaranteed. (The "gate" in this case is asses in seats for TV cameras).

The threshold of capacity is set by whatever the state's policy is for COVID19 statistics. Unless a state like TX says "we're open at 100% capacity no matter how many new cases, hospitalizations, & deaths," a state is going to have some capacity cap that isn't predictable now for late August. As I understand it, NC hasn't said it's not holding the convention; it's said the capacity of the arena in August is undetermined.


If they can't have full capacity, then they can always talk to Clint Eastwood about addressing empty chairs during a Republican conversation.


Perhaps Trump should make that call since "his" portion of the convention - the acceptance speech which is all he cares about anyway - is going to be made elsewhere. The RNC is contractually bound & will conduct convention business in Charlotte NC. Scouts have been dispatched to Nashville, Las Vegas, Jacksonville, Orlando, & "various sites in GA." We know the mayor of Las Vegas doesn't care about COVID19 precautions from her previous statements nor does the governor of GA so looks like they're frontrunners.

All this to feed Trump's ego. How can Trump accept the nomination in one place when the delegates are conducting business in another? Or is he just planning a rally to a public arena in another city? He might as well accept from the Rose Garden.


nebish - 6/5/2020 at 12:31 AM

My wife and I were going to go out to eat tonight for the first time in months. Planned to sit outside, but it rained so we may do it tomorrow or wait til next week.

I booked a flight later this month. Should be interesting. My Mom flew home from Florida a couple weeks ago. She said her plane was fairly full with people in middle seats although nobody sat next to her. Everyone wore a mask, sounded like everyone came with their own, but the airline would've handed them out if anyone didn't have one. They boarded the back rows of the plane first in 5 row blocks. She said everything seemed to go well until at the end when everyone stands up to get their overhead bags and wait until they open the doors to get off, that was just like it always was people crowding the aisles. She is out of self isolation now, even though the Governor here said people coming into the state no longer had to do that she still did it as a precaution of not unknowingly spreading virus, potentially.

There is reduced coronavirus numbers in Ohio:

Our 7 day average daily case increase has been under 500 for the first time since early April. At our peak we were averaging 920 new cases a day. Today it was 481 and one hundred cases fewer than it was 10 days ago on average. Likewise our 14 day rolling average case increase stands at 508, also the lowest it has been in a month. Our most recent spike on the 14 day was May 12th at 605.

Even better we have under 700 patients in our hospitals now, over 400 patients below our peak. Mid May we were still in a prolonged plateau of 1000-1100 patients hospitalized. Our ICU patients continue to drop steadily as well, today just 267 listed. We had 520 ICU patients at our peak. Our deaths remain elevated in the mid-30s per day, compared to a peak of 49 average deaths about two weeks ago.

Ohio's testing has gone from 33,780 total tests week of April 27-May 3rd. Week of May 25-May 31st a total of 66,355 tests were conducted. We are testing over 10,000 tests per day now. A month ago it was little over 4000 a day. Our positive tests are registering below 5% now.

In my county 7 day average cases was just 9.86 today, first time below 10 per day. Our 14 day average has also reached a new low of 13.50. While our hospitalizations had been ticking up to 2.5-3 per day, that figure has now come back down to about 2 per day...which is about the same we were in early May. Mahoning county loses about 2 residents per day which has been pretty steady, but is down from a peak of 5-6 per day early May. We are 4th in the state for deaths and 7th for cases. Over half of our total cases (751 of 1466) stemmed from nursing home staff or residents. 100 of our 191 county deaths were in nursing homes.


nebish - 6/5/2020 at 12:08 PM

Got an email from my friend in rural Colorado. He is a manager at a box store who had to hire new people to cope with the additional traffic and business. Restaurants there are reopening and some of the new people he had hired have left to return to their restaurant jobs.

Sounds like anyone who is in the swimming pool business and camper/RV business has seen a huge increase in sales and business. And the gun stores, but that has multilayered reasoning.

I'm starting to see more businesses here in Ohio with unmasked employees. I'd say I have been in more businesses lately with workers not wearing masks than workers wearing masks. Technically they could be reported to the local board of health for not complying with the state's public health order. I'm not the reporting type...but employees of those businesses could anonymously report also if they didn't feel safe working.


kevdab - 6/5/2020 at 12:25 PM

quote__________________________________
He might as well accept from the Rose Garden.
________________________________________

Or, he can accept the nomination from the bunker.


nebish - 6/5/2020 at 12:40 PM

2.5 million jobs added in May. Unemployment rate drops.

Surprising? Early? Labor market bottomed?

Workers on temporary layoff dropped by nearly the same number as job gains so this may be reflective of people being called back. Sustainable? We'll have to see what next month's report brings.


BIGV - 6/5/2020 at 02:44 PM

quote:
Although there are projections on which national, state, & local leadership in government & private sectors rely for short-term planning, there aren't any that I know of that can guarantee that social distancing wouldn't apply to any specific venue in late August given the broad range of characteristics of attendees.


Does this apply to protests?


BIGV - 6/5/2020 at 02:46 PM

quote:
So be a considerate human being & wear a mask when interacting w/others. As we keep being reminded, we're all in this together.


Does this apply to protests?


BIGV - 6/5/2020 at 02:50 PM

quote:
The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.


How long before you march with thousands?


BIGV - 6/5/2020 at 02:54 PM

quote:
I know everybody is in a hurry for our lives to get back to normal, but the measures that are in place (self-quarantine, 6' social distancing and (for now ... maybe a little longer) no congregating in public ARE WORKING!


"6' social distancing" Does this apply to protesting?


nebish - 6/5/2020 at 03:29 PM

Dude...4 redundant posts about protests?

I'd like to hear something about anyone's communities, what is different, what are you thinking about maybe doing or not doing...what are you seeing? How are your local numbers?

Please, I'd rather not see another thread sucked up by protesters not wearing masks or not social distancing.

My wife and I went to a outdoor structure/patio/playset manufacturer today. Her and I wore masks, nobody in the place did. I felt fine about it...like you said one time "you do you, I'll do me". Still makes me laugh though. Everyone figure out what advice they should follow and let's just get on with it.


Bhawk - 6/5/2020 at 03:51 PM

Scott! Nice to hear that you and yours are doing well!

Out here on the fruited Plains of Kansas, things are opening back up by county. The Governor and the Secretary of the Kansas Department of Health and Environment made the decision a couple of weeks ago to forgo the state wide plan, throwing it back to the counties.

New cases continue to climb, hospitals are holding steady on ICU beds. Now expecting cluster surges as things reopen, large gatherings of people where infections occur.

All of the locations at the health system I work for have universal masking in place, and there’s still no visitors allowed at the hospital locations. Procedure volume is slowly being restored.

My wife and I hit the grocery store every week, a Costco run every two weeks, a trip to Lowe’s or the hardware store as being at home seems to greatly impact the home improvement idea generation and since we aren’t spending any restaurant, movie or entertainment money, why not? The house looks great!

A great rule of thumb is sanitize, do a task, sanitize. Mask, social distance and don’t touch your face. I don’t find it that difficult, and if anyone has an issue with me wearing a mask, that’s their issue, not mine.

The virus is still out there, hopefully we won’t be repeating the 1918 graph this summer. PPE production is slowly catching up (when I have the time I’ll share my experiences with all that, it’s been interesting, frustrating and maddening), but it’s still going to be a while.


stormyrider - 6/5/2020 at 04:23 PM

got a haircut last night for the 1st time since February


I live north of Boston, work mostly in NH but some in a large hospital in the northern burbs
NH has been opening for a couple weeks. They took a lane out of Main St and have outdoor dining. No menus (scan QR code with phone), 90 minute limit, wait staff with masks. Not yet in MA. Still take out only. Masks everywhere.

We have been having safe social distance cocktail parties around the block. People bring chairs and their own drinks, stay outside, keep about 6 feet away. I would say about 10-15 or so people show up. Good times, feels safe

My hospital in NH has seen a gradual decline in cases. We have been 8-12 for a while now.
The Boston area hospitals were hit hard. They had a celebration of sorts when the one I work with (Lahey) fell below 100, and then last week fell below 50. I spoke with a friend at Brigham - they still have lots of sick people on ventilators, many age 20-50.
In NH we are opening up our medical services but still trying to do as much as we can remotely.

We are all warily watching for a bump in cases as things open up


BIGV - 6/5/2020 at 07:53 PM

quote:
Dude...4 redundant posts about protests?


Yep and I could have quoted at 20 more, all from people who were talking about the dangers of not following the social rules for defeating this thing....and now?...Crickets because 95% of those recommendations are being totally ignored by the thousands who've taken to the streets. So, redundant? sure. Can you smell the hypocrisy?


2112 - 6/5/2020 at 08:55 PM

Out here in California, many of the restrictions are being loosened. Between that and the protests, we should have a very good idea in about 2 weeks on how serious Covid-19 currently is. We have seen the number of cases go up a little here over the last couple days, but not by that much. Certainly not by enough to worry about.


nebish - 6/6/2020 at 12:30 PM

I am pretty close to the PA and WV state lines so a lot of people from this area go to a place called Mountaineer Casino and Racetrack just over the river. They opened yesterday at 10am with 50% capacity. There were hundreds wrapped around the building waiting to get in at 11am.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1268922740477767681

Ohio is going to open our casinos along with amusement parks in 2 weeks.


nebish - 6/6/2020 at 12:38 PM

quote:
Scott! Nice to hear that you and yours are doing well!


Thanks Jerry. All is well here. I remember you saying before you used to take summer trips to the mountains, do you still take those trips?

Stormyrider, do your hospitals take in nursing home patients that have covid or are they kept in the nursing homes? I received conflicting information here, sometimes they would be admitted to a hospital, but then returned to the nursing home.

2112, what is the status of the national and state parks in California? I visited last year. Muir Woods, Humboldt Redwoods State Park, Lassen Volcanic NP and ended up at Tahoe. Such a beautiful trip! Drove up the coast from SF to Humboldt region. Wife got car sick!


stormyrider - 6/7/2020 at 04:30 PM

New Coronavirus Hot Spots Emerge Across South And In California, As Northeast Slows

From npr.org


Mass protests against police violence across the U.S. have public health officials concerned about an accelerated spread of the coronavirus. But even before the protests began May 26, sparked by the May 25 death of George Floyd in Minneapolis, several states had been recording big jumps in the number of cases.
The head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Dr. Robert Redfield, registered his concern at a congressional hearing Thursday. He shook his head as a congresswoman showed him photos of throngs of people at the Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri over Memorial Day weekend and crowds in Florida that had assembled to watch the May 30 launch of the SpaceX Dragon crew capsule.
"We're very concerned that our public health message isn't resonating," Redfield said. "We continue to try to figure out how to penetrate the message with different groups. The pictures the chairwoman showed me are great examples of serious problems."
The U.S. is still seeing roughly 20,000 new cases a day. There's a wide range from state to state, from one case a day, on average, last week in Hawaii all the way up to to 2,614 new cases a day in California. Specific areas in the Golden State have become hot spots, along with certain counties in every Southern state.
The northeastern states of New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts — which among them accounted for a quarter of all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. — are seeing a substantial slowing of new cases.
A closer look at these hard-hit areas highlights some of the common and unique challenges states face as they manage protests and begin efforts to reopen the economy amid the risks of more disease and death.
Tennessee and the Carolinas among Southern states showing jumps
In the South, the timing of new cases appears to be linked to the reopening of restaurants, barber shops and gyms, which started in most states more than a month ago. Figures tracked by NPR show the number of cases in North Carolina and South Carolina this week is up by roughly 60% from two weeks ago. In Tennessee, that increase is 75%.
Georgia and Louisiana look steadier, but they experienced some of the highest cases counts and fatalities in the region in recent weeks, at the height of the pandemic.
In Southern states that were quick to reopen, officials sometimes felt the need to explain big increases in case counts on some days. In Georgia, for example, a state health official said a big one-day increase was because of a backlog of reporting cases from a commercial lab. In Tennessee this week, a daily jump of 800 cases was blamed partially on an ongoing prison outbreak that yielded 350 new positive test results.

California case counts driven by populous Los Angeles County
In California, counties are continuing to allow businesses to reopen even as newly confirmed coronavirus cases climb. The state experienced a 40% jump in cases over the last week. Large metro areas like Los Angeles and San Francisco have gradually lifted restrictions and Californians have responded by traveling to beaches and neighboring areas, blurring the effectiveness of the varying degrees of restrictions between adjacent counties.
Los Angeles County, home to more than 10 million people, has the highest number of cases in the state. Numbers tracked by NPR show that, on average, health officials report around 1,300 new cases daily. The county has blamed slow lab results for a backlog, while acknowledging that community transmission has been ticking up, especially among communities of color.
In the Northeast, where New York City became the U.S. epicenter of the pandemic for weeks, there are still thousands of new cases every day, although the rate of increase has slowed. It's down 41% in New Jersey over the past two weeks, down 33% in New York and down 13% in Massachusetts. But health officials caution that doesn't mean the coronavirus is under control in these three states. New York is still seeing more than 1,000 new cases a day; over the past week, Massachusetts averaged just over 500 a day, and New Jersey had close to 800.
Ethnic disparities persist across the country
In Los Angeles, elderly people, particularly those who live in nursing homes have been disproportionately impacted. Almost half the people who have died from COVID-19 in the county were nursing home residents. County health officials were slow to test for the virus in nursing homes, and recent data reported by the health department shows that two-thirds of the Los Angeles County health care workers who died from the virus worked in nursing homes.
People of color have been disproportionately affected in California, as elsewhere: Latinos make up over half of the COVID-19 cases in California, where they are about 40% of the state's population. In Los Angeles County, the highest COVID death rates have been among native Hawaiians, Pacific Islanders and black residents. Minorities have an increased risk of developing underlying health conditions like high blood pressure and diabetes, making them more likely to develop a more severe illness if infected with the virus.
In Tennessee, which has one of the nation's fastest-growing case counts, neighborhoods that are home to large immigrant populations have emerged as persistent hot spots. Nashville's public health department has hired specialized community outreach workers, in partnership with immigrant advocacy organizations, to conduct contact tracing and connect families with coronavirus testing.
"We knew we had to do something different, and that's what we're doing now," says Leslie Waller, a city epidemiologist who oversees the project.
Waller acknowledges that many of the people at risk work in jobs that have been deemed essential or own businesses that can't be run remotely. Public health officials also express concern that co-workers in close-knit immigrant communities often carpool to the same jobs, and some job sites have experienced large outbreaks.
But in Southern states, rising case counts have not slowed the momentum for further lifting of restrictions. On Thursday, Tennessee announced additional loosening of restrictions for community events, allowing fairs, expos and parades. Instead of limiting the number of people who can gather, the focus has shifted to ensuring everyone can maintain social distance.
"Thanks to the continued hard work of Tennesseans and business owners operating responsibly, we're able to further reopen our state's economy," Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee said in a written statement. "These new guidelines provide useful information so that we can enjoy the events that connect us to our neighbors and communities."
There's virtually no public discussion of reinstating business restrictions, so long as hospitals can handle any uptick in illness.
Northeast states take a slower, more cautious approach to reopening
Some states in the Northeast have found ways to bring down infection rates, though many of them have put much stricter rules on businesses and public spaces.
You still can't sit down in a restaurant in New York City or anywhere in Massachusetts and New Jersey. That may be allowed in the coming weeks, but only outdoors. These states are all still in the early stages of reopening, after residents were told to stay home for almost two months and all but the most essential businesses were closed.
While most states do not have broad requirements for face coverings, rules requiring them are more common in the Northeast. In Massachusetts, some kind of face covering is required indoors and outside, if you can't stay at least 6 feet away from other people. In New York and New Jersey, masks are required in public and while riding buses or trains. Within some states, counties have varying rules, which can cause confusion. In Los Angeles County, health officials made cloth face coverings mandatory at all times when outside your home, while San Diego County only requires masks when you are within 6 feet of another person.
Residents everywhere are chafing at the rules, but in the hardest-hit states, there's a wider acceptance of social-distancing rules. A poll out last week found twice as many New York residents were worried about opening too quickly, compared with the number of New Yorkers who were worried about it happening too slowly. Polls in New Jersey and Massachusetts also have shown better than majority support for gradual, phased openings.
This story comes from NPR's reporting partnership with WBUR, Nashville Public Radio, Southern California Public Radio and Kaiser Health News.


Brendan - 6/7/2020 at 09:47 PM

Things are still pretty locked down here in the NJ/NYC area. Masks are required in all stores where I am, but we’re not really seeing any real shortages of anything which is good. Fitness equipment is extremely hard to come by.

The beaches are open. I went this morning with my wife. Everybody was very well spaced and most wore masks when entering and leaving the beach. It was definitely not as crowded as it should be on an 80 degree day in June. The guards are not required to wear masks on the stands, but when they leave the stands or have any interactions which beach-goers there are required to wear them. They actually had these really cool Asbury Park Beach Patrol face coverings made for all the beach staff. All of the beach staff have been tested for COVID and will soon be tested for antibodies as well.

NJ goes to restricted outdoor dining this week I believe. Some restaurants are rushing in, others are not. They are required to take reservations, which is a departure for some of them. I personally am not rushing in to going to restaurants yet. Happy to cook and get lots of takeout from my local favorites.

I went in to NYC last Thursday to see a couple of friends and have some takeout lunch in the park. It was the first time I was in NYC since March 13, which is the longest I’ve gone not being in NYC in 30 years. I was encouraged to see more people out and about than I had expected. Most all wearing masks especially when passing close to others and more especially when there were older people around. I drove through mid-town which was rather sad in many ways. Lots of boarded up businesses and very Few people on the streets at all. Times Square was completely empty, which was eerie. I stopped in at a very large high-end restaurant that I frequent regularly in ordinary times and chatted with the managing partner. They’ve been doing takeout. They pool any and all tips and distribute equally to the entire staff of the restaurant which is nice, but I’m sure many are hurting. She did say that a bunch of servers had contracted the virus and one of the bartenders was in the ICU for a while because of it. He’s 33. Fortunately doing much better now.

I think that’s it from me at the moment. I have no idea when we return to offices in NYC. My guess is not until after Labor Day at the soonest, and even then, probably at a much Reduced occupancy at any given time. Fortunately we can all work remotely and business is going very well. I do worry about the smaller businesses and hope they’re ablE to weather all of this.

Hope everyone here is well and continues to stay healthy. While I may not post much, I come here every single day and enjoy reading most of the threads. It’s been a nice coping mechanism to know y’all are still here, mixin’ it up from time to time.


porkchopbob - 6/8/2020 at 05:05 PM

quote:
2 years of unemployment, plus $600 per week is a lot of money for these folks.



stormyrider - 6/8/2020 at 08:09 PM

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/health/us-coronavirus-monday/index.html


BIGV - 6/8/2020 at 10:53 PM

quote:
2 years of unemployment, plus $600 per week is a lot of money for these folks.


Perhaps a further explanation is in order for some of our more "jump to conclusions" participants.

Does the term "these folks" in anyway allude solely to the color of anyone's skin? Or is it a reference to anyone collecting un-employment?


2112 - 6/9/2020 at 04:53 AM

quote:
quote:
Perhaps a further explanation is in order for some of our more "jump to conclusions" participants.

Does the term "these folks" in anyway allude solely to the color of anyone's skin? Or is it a reference to anyone collecting un-employment?


Not at all. I was referring to everyone who has lost their job because of this pandemic. If I’m not mistaken, state unemployment is about $300-$600 per week, plus an extra $600 per week from Mr. Trump, which is $900 a week minimum for people who are out of work. Say what you will about the man, but we’ve all been given a very generous monetary gift and arguably better off now than we were 5 years ago.


"Plus an extra $600 per week from Mr. Trump" - Gee, what a generous guy!

I have been given zero monetary gift. I got no stimulus money, and my taxes went up. And in 2025 the tax rates for individuals will expire, but I will no longer be able to take the deductions I used to take, so my tax bill will be even higher yet. Personally, I have no problem paying more for taxes, but not while the top 1% gets all the benefits at my expense.

Doesn't matter, I'm sure Biden will have to work on a tax fix next year. The government has been spending money it doesn't have like a drunken sailer on leave. The deficit was already exploding even before the depression set in. It can't continue as it is.


BIGV - 6/9/2020 at 05:01 AM

quote:
Doesn't matter, I'm sure Biden will have to work on a tax fix next year.


Working from home he'll be sure to receive unemployment and SS


stormyrider - 6/9/2020 at 10:24 AM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/08/14-states-puerto-rico-hit- their-highest-seven-day-average-new-covid-19-infections-since-

14 states and Puerto Rico hit highest seven-day average of new coronavirus infections

As rates of coronavirus infections ease in places such as New York and Illinois and onetime hot spots move into new phases of reopening, parts of the country that had previously avoided being hit hard by the outbreak are now tallying record-high new infections.
Since the start of June, 14 states and Puerto Rico have recorded their highest-ever seven-day average of new coronavirus cases since the pandemic began, according to data tracked by The Washington Post: : Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Kentucky, New Mexico, North Carolina, Mississippi, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Utah.
If the pandemic’s first wave burned through dense metro hubs such as New York City, Chicago and Detroit, the highest percentages of new cases are coming from places with much smaller populations: Lincoln County, Ore., an area of less than 50,000, has averaged 20 new daily cases; the Bear River Health District in northern Utah has averaged 78 new cases a day in the past week, most of them tied to an outbreak at a meat processing plant in the small town of Hyrum.

nbox, every day.
Adding to the disparity in health-care support, residents in states such as Mississippi, Florida and South Carolina are living under only minor-to-moderate restrictions — even as their average daily infection rate is rising.
The past two weeks of protests against police brutality will be yet another variable in how the virus spreads in the country. Protesters flooded the streets of major cities but gathered in small towns across the country, too. Though the widespread protests are a boon for the movement, health officials have warned about the impact so many people closely packed with one another could have on transmission rates.

As of Monday, at least 109,000 people in the United States have died of covid-19, the disease caused by the coronavirus, with more than 1.95 million cases of the virus reported.


nebish - 6/9/2020 at 11:05 AM

Now the WHO says "asymptomatic spread is very rare", accounting for 6% of spread at most.

WTF.

This is what I'm talking about. Wait a couple weeks and everything you thought you knew will be "updated".

I was in two more businesses yesterday where I was the only person wearing a mask. Ohio requires employers and employees wear masks. This is a theme I have been seeing more and more with fewer people wearing masks.

First place yesterday is a husband and wife outfit, they limit their distance and contact with customers (put money in a box type thing), but two other customers came in with no masks. I went to a lawn power equipment dealer. 4 employees, no masks. 5 customers no masks. Went out to eat last night for the first time. Place was really busy. We went at 4:00 to try and get their before they got busy. Already busy. Large bar, every other seat was occupied. About 1/3 of the tables in the tavern were full and only 2 of 10 tables on outside patio were open when we got there. All the restaurant workers did wear masks. A couple new customers that came in when we were leaving had masks on, otherwise nobody else did. I'll let you know how the restaurant trip went two weeks...as long as they don't change the incubation time guidance by then.


stormyrider - 6/9/2020 at 03:40 PM

1-you can’t tell if you are presymptomatic or asymptomatic until it’s too late

2-Published this week

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-3012

Asymptomatic persons seem to account for approximately 40% to 45% of SARS-CoV-2 infections, and they can transmit the virus to others for an extended period, perhaps longer than 14 days.


tbomike - 6/9/2020 at 04:18 PM

So where are all those overrun hospitals in Georgia? You know when they opened up so aggresively we were told it would be a disaster. Where are the overrun hospitals in Texas? In Florida? In Ohio? I know Vermont's cases exploded. I mean they went all the way up to ONE covid patient in the entire states system. Of course have not even had more than one for weeks now but who cares.


cyclone88 - 6/9/2020 at 04:38 PM

quote:
Now the WHO says "asymptomatic spread is very rare", accounting for 6% of spread at most. WTF.
This is what I'm talking about. Wait a couple weeks and everything you thought you knew will be "updated".

They've already withdrawn that statement - "out of context" or "referring to another question" or something like that.

Months ago, we talked about how there was too much information, confusing, hard to keep track, & was making people anxious. Nothing's changed except we don't have hour-long briefings of Trump & his COVID19 team who spent most of their time contradicting what he'd said so as not to confuse the public. Living in NYC, it was hard to avoid being bombarded w/info, but I pretty much listened to Cuomo once/day & read the daily info from the health dept for NYC.

NYC is still not that different than it was in March in terms of openings, distancing, & masks. Basically, it's too expensive for all but the most sought-after retail/restaurants to bother opening especially when laid off workers get unemployment plus the $600 bonus through 7/31. The uber-rich fled the city according to cell phone tracking & other sources. Any time people can avoid public transportation & work from home, they take it so there's not been a rush back to office buildings & the city's 3 largest tenants have released some of their space because they don't want workers to return.

We're all in limbo as to whether new cases are going to spike due to re-openings, protests, & people generally not taking masks/social distancing seriously any longer & what governors are going to do in response. My decisions are pretty easy because nothing I do on a regular basis is open & travel is out because most European countries are still closed to US visitors unless they quarantine for 14 days in a hotel. Brisk walks in the parks are about it for me. Yes, it's getting old, but the same is true for everyone.

Like your reports from OH & Rusty's from coastal GA. I still smile at your astonishment when TJMaxx re-opened to the biggest crowd ever!




BIGV - 6/9/2020 at 04:48 PM

quote:
So where are all those overrun hospitals in Georgia? You know when they opened up so aggresively we were told it would be a disaster. Where are the overrun hospitals in Texas? In Florida? In Ohio? I know Vermont's cases exploded. I mean they went all the way up to ONE covid patient in the entire states system. Of course have not even had more than one for weeks now but who cares.


Good question and one that will most likely be ignored. It must be terribly taxing to defend your original position of fear and what the virus is capable of when on the other hand you are supporting the thousands who've taken to the streets and are not practicing the same social distancing you preached just weeks ago.


cyclone88 - 6/9/2020 at 04:51 PM

quote:

Since the start of June, 14 states and Puerto Rico have recorded their highest-ever seven-day average of new coronavirus cases since the pandemic began, according to data tracked by The Washington Post: : Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Kentucky, New Mexico, North Carolina, Mississippi, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Utah.
Adding to the disparity in health-care support, residents in states such as Mississippi, Florida and South Carolina are living under only minor-to-moderate restrictions — even as their average daily infection rate is rising.


Yet as of yesterday, the RNC indicated that Jacksonville FL & Savannah GA are the frontrunners for the Trump portion of the convention - where there will be no restriction on the # of people who can fill an arena for Trump's acceptance speech. The business of the convention will remain in Charlotte, but Trump wants a state's guarantee that there won't be any capacity cap due to COVID19. Unless a governor just throws caution to the wind, I don't see how any one of them can guarantee today that the number of cases in late August won't require restrictions.


porkchopbob - 6/9/2020 at 05:14 PM

quote:
quote:
So where are all those overrun hospitals in Georgia? You know when they opened up so aggresively we were told it would be a disaster. Where are the overrun hospitals in Texas? In Florida? In Ohio? I know Vermont's cases exploded. I mean they went all the way up to ONE covid patient in the entire states system. Of course have not even had more than one for weeks now but who cares.

Good question and one that will most likely be ignored. It must be terribly taxing to defend your original position of fear and what the virus is capable of when on the other hand you are supporting the thousands who've taken to the streets and are not practicing the same social distancing you preached just weeks ago.

You are bizarrely ignoring that those concerned about the virus resurging are concerned about unsafe crowds. Also proof you still misunderstand a lot about the virus and prevention.

Here is some info from a health care provider that might be helpful (though I'm sure you know better): https://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/west-palm-beach/infect ious-disease-doctor-to-answer-questions-about-increase-in-coronavirus-cases

Meanwhile, as Florida attempts to re-open, cases have increased slightly. Considering we are just a week in to "Phase 1" and the gestation time for the virus, there is no way to know if there is a correlation or if the increases are a trend. Hopefully the old folks here stay home or wear masks at the very least.

https://www.wptv.com/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll-climbs-by-53-in-sta te-including-15-in-palm-beach-county


BIGV - 6/9/2020 at 05:19 PM

quote:
Also proof you still misunderstand a lot about the virus and prevention.


I "misunderstand" nothing and challenge you to denounce the gatherings and protests because of the utter disregard to safeguarding the health of those involved during this pandemic.


porkchopbob - 6/9/2020 at 05:40 PM

quote:
quote:
Also proof you still misunderstand a lot about the virus and prevention.


I "misunderstand" nothing and challenge you to denounce the gatherings and protests because of the utter disregard to safeguarding the health of those involved during this pandemic.

I've repeatedly made it clear I am not for violent, unsafe, crowded protests with no precautions. I don't denounce peaceful protests and vigils that have been done safely. You refuse to listen. Or understand, not sure which. Probably both.


BIGV - 6/9/2020 at 05:48 PM

quote:
I don't denounce peaceful protests and vigils that have been done safely.


Perhaps you could take a moment and post one of those links you are so fond of that clearly states that ALL of the "peaceful protests and vigils" have been done safely. Remember, this is a highly contagious virus that was the cause for the shutting down of the economy, the call for face masks to be worn everywhere, social distancing, schools closing, the cancelling of professional sports and ALL businesses not deemed essential. ONE cough, one sneeze, one handshake can infect others....But peaceful protests and vigils seem to be immune and safe!

Please....


porkchopbob - 6/9/2020 at 06:12 PM

quote:
quote:
I "misunderstand" nothing and challenge you to denounce the gatherings and protests because of the utter disregard to safeguarding the health of those involved during this pandemic.

I've repeatedly made it clear I am not for violent, unsafe, crowded protests with no precautions

Typical, ignore what doesn't fit into your narrow view.

There have been thousands of vigils across the country where people are wearing masks and keeping relative distance, even here in Florida where restaurants are re-opening and people are even closer. Remember, masks are what you wear when you are in close proximity to others since it's an airborne virus. Some spaces people are less-likely to be able to socially distance. There are many variables but, as mentioned, you hypocritically want one size fits all. Educate yourself. Don't be obtuse.

Ask yourself why you don't care about restaurants re-opening and only about protestors. Ask yourself why you are incensed an elderly white man was violently thrown to the ground by police, but not when a black man is slowly murdered by a cop in the street. Because it's pretty clear it's more than stubborn ignorance.


tbomike - 6/9/2020 at 07:01 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
So where are all those overrun hospitals in Georgia? You know when they opened up so aggresively we were told it would be a disaster. Where are the overrun hospitals in Texas? In Florida? In Ohio? I know Vermont's cases exploded. I mean they went all the way up to ONE covid patient in the entire states system. Of course have not even had more than one for weeks now but who cares.

Good question and one that will most likely be ignored. It must be terribly taxing to defend your original position of fear and what the virus is capable of when on the other hand you are supporting the thousands who've taken to the streets and are not practicing the same social distancing you preached just weeks ago.

You are bizarrely ignoring that those concerned about the virus resurging are concerned about unsafe crowds. Also proof you still misunderstand a lot about the virus and prevention.

Here is some info from a health care provider that might be helpful (though I'm sure you know better): https://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/west-palm-beach/infect ious-disease-doctor-to-answer-questions-about-increase-in-coronavirus-cases

Meanwhile, as Florida attempts to re-open, cases have increased slightly. Considering we are just a week in to "Phase 1" and the gestation time for the virus, there is no way to know if there is a correlation or if the increases are a trend. Hopefully the old folks here stay home or wear masks at the very least.

https://www.wptv.com/coronavirus/coronavirus-death-toll-climbs-by-53-in-sta te-including-15-in-palm-beach-county


Georgia is not a week into its reopening. That idiot Rachel Maddow was practically in tears about how Georgia was going to be ovedrrun. It did not happen. It did not happen in Texas which is way past 1 week. Where are the hospitals overrun? It did not happen and will not happen. And spare me about social distancing at this protests as that is a complete crock of you know what.


Sang - 6/9/2020 at 08:45 PM

As with anything, it is who or what you believe. Most news reports are reporting that Georgia and Florida, along with a few other states are not following the reporting guidelines set up by the CDC - so who really knows if they are or aren't seeing an increase? It fits their agenda to say they opened up and nothing happened ... but we will eventually see....


stormyrider - 6/9/2020 at 09:12 PM

In my mind, the question isn’t are hospitals being overrun. It’s great that they aren’t.

How many people are getting sick? How sick are they getting? How many are dying?


tbomike - 6/9/2020 at 09:33 PM

Well sure it is how many people are getting sick and how sick they are getting. But hospitalization is what really matters because it does not matter about guidelines from the politicized CDC when people are not getting hospitalized especially being in ICUs and put on ventilators. If people are not getting sick enough to be hospitalized then that is a very important story. Go ahead and remind me which pandemics in history went away because of a vaccine. And some doctors do believe this virus is attenuating already.

https://triblive.com/local/regional/upmc-doctors-say-covid-19-declining-in- virulence-and-infection-levels/


porkchopbob - 6/9/2020 at 09:58 PM

quote:
Where are the hospitals overrun? It did not happen and will not happen.

They were overrun in densely populated urban centers (Seattle, NYC) or areas with large senior populations (south FL). My wife's uncle on the Upper West Side of NYC had a stroke last month and had to go to a hospital way across town because the closest one was being used exclusively for COVID treatment. Now he's upstate in rehab, his wife is alone at home waiting for him to return.

Every where is going to be different, there are variables - such as when the virus first got there, as well as variables that are hard to contain or impossible to predict. Stats are going to fluctuate because they are dependent on testing, which hasn't been consistent. Some countries are successfully reopening, some had to walk that back.

The bottom line is be smart and safe. Remember, in March people were doing nothing and there was no preparation. Social distancing was the broad stroke, get people away from each other, especially the elderly or infirm. Just look at how many musicians at the Beacon in March alone fell ill (Jackson Browne, Oteil, Larry Campbell). Months later more people have masks, people understand more about transmission, that it's airborne.

Now Arizona (an area with a lot of retirees) is reporting spikes, hopefully this isn't indicative of a larger trend:
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/this-trend-is-concerning-to-us-banner-hea lth-warns-of-covid-19-increase-in-arizona

quote:
Continuing, "Since May 15, ventilated COVID-19 patients have quadrupled. Banner Health also recently reached capacity for patients receiving extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) treatment."


nebish - 6/9/2020 at 10:58 PM

quote:
So where are all those overrun hospitals in Georgia? You know when they opened up so aggresively we were told it would be a disaster. Where are the overrun hospitals in Texas? In Florida? In Ohio? I know Vermont's cases exploded. I mean they went all the way up to ONE covid patient in the entire states system. Of course have not even had more than one for weeks now but who cares.


Ohio started to open in stages on May 1st with additional relaxing and openings pretty much weekly throughout May. Here on June 9th, 6 weeks since starting to open and relax we show 639 hospitalized Ohioans, just three days ago we were at 636 the lowest I have seen since I started tracking the data in early April. At our peak we had over 1100 hospitalized. Same goes for our ICU, today just 238 people were reported in ICU, compared to our peak of over 500 mid April.

As for new cases we have 4 days in a row under 400. Our 7 day average cases is 406, 14 day average is 442 and 21 day average is 487. All new lows since April 15/16th. We are testing more (20,000 more tests than 4 weeks ago) and seeing the new case number declining. At our peak we had over 900 new cases a day.

I have the nightly news on as I type...all they seem to talk about though are the places that are spiking...no time to report the places that are declining.

Pretty good here so far. And this is with more people not masking up.


BIGV - 6/9/2020 at 11:07 PM

quote:
Ask yourself why you are incensed an elderly white man was violently thrown to the ground by police, but not when a black man is slowly murdered by a cop in the street. Because it's pretty clear it's more than stubborn ignorance.


Oh my!...I do not have to ask myself anything; there's a phrase you are just dying to throw on me, go ahead! It is what you libs do!


stormyrider - 6/10/2020 at 01:18 AM

Sorry, but “you libs”???

As if everyone reads from the same playbook and agrees 100% of the time??

There’s a whole lot of grey out there, and even the more left of us don’t agree with each other all the time, nor do the whole right. I agree with some of the “right” sometimes, and I’m sure others do too.


nebish - 6/10/2020 at 01:56 AM

quote:
quote:
Now the WHO says "asymptomatic spread is very rare", accounting for 6% of spread at most. WTF.
This is what I'm talking about. Wait a couple weeks and everything you thought you knew will be "updated".

They've already withdrawn that statement - "out of context" or "referring to another question" or something like that.

Months ago, we talked about how there was too much information, confusing, hard to keep track, & was making people anxious. Nothing's changed except we don't have hour-long briefings of Trump & his COVID19 team who spent most of their time contradicting what he'd said so as not to confuse the public. Living in NYC, it was hard to avoid being bombarded w/info, but I pretty much listened to Cuomo once/day & read the daily info from the health dept for NYC.

NYC is still not that different than it was in March in terms of openings, distancing, & masks. Basically, it's too expensive for all but the most sought-after retail/restaurants to bother opening especially when laid off workers get unemployment plus the $600 bonus through 7/31. The uber-rich fled the city according to cell phone tracking & other sources. Any time people can avoid public transportation & work from home, they take it so there's not been a rush back to office buildings & the city's 3 largest tenants have released some of their space because they don't want workers to return.

We're all in limbo as to whether new cases are going to spike due to re-openings, protests, & people generally not taking masks/social distancing seriously any longer & what governors are going to do in response. My decisions are pretty easy because nothing I do on a regular basis is open & travel is out because most European countries are still closed to US visitors unless they quarantine for 14 days in a hotel. Brisk walks in the parks are about it for me. Yes, it's getting old, but the same is true for everyone.

Like your reports from OH & Rusty's from coastal GA. I still smile at your astonishment when TJMaxx re-opened to the biggest crowd ever!






The days I don't read, listen or watch any news I feel liberated! Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

The WHO apparently got a lot of pushback on their statement. But it's like you said, there is soooo much information, and if you consume a lot of news you hear soooo much of it and you hear the changes, as people learn more, or different results and studies come in from one source or another and there are so many "experts" you have the global experts, you have the CDC, you have the local health people, you have the talking head experts, you have the op-ed experts, former this current that was once upon a time so-and-so....and it ends up like a bunch of puzzle pieces that don't fit together. You want to put the puzzle together but the pieces don't match up.

Yeah...and I still wonder why the hell a TJ Maxx store would have so many customers. I guess they are a big deal. We are having a TJX distribution center build in Lordstown where we lost the Chevy plant (supposed to have a electric truck and battery plant there too), so if people love them some TJ Maxx that is good for our coming DC if nothing else. Imported stuff on their shelves though....ugh...I wish I could just stop caring about stuff sometimes. Staying busier these days so less idle time to want to...or need to follow these current events and all of that.


stormyrider - 6/10/2020 at 11:12 AM

Agree that paying attention to the news is stressful

But, in keeping with the thread title.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/09/coronavirus-hospitalizatio ns-rising/

Many of these states that have experienced an increase in cases have also had an increase in hospitalizations, with a handful of states also nearing bed capacity. Hospitalizations nationwide are difficult to track, with states reporting hospitalization numbers in varying ways, or not at all. Even states that do report hospitalization numbers may not have always received complete data from every hospital in the state at the time of their reports.
Texas has reported 75,616 cases since the pandemic began, and in 10 of the past 15 days, the state’s seven-day average of new cases has increased.
As of Tuesday, it has reported two consecutive days of record-breaking coronavirus hospitalizations. The state has seen a 36 percent increase in new cases since Memorial Day, with a record 2,056 current hospitalizations as of early Tuesday afternoon. It was up from a high of 1,935 hospitalizations on Monday.

Edit to add
The question was asked where are the hosptial over-runs.
In addition to the WP article, there is this

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/10/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html

19 states see rising coronavirus cases and Arizona is asking its hospitals to activate emergency plans

[Edited on 6/10/2020 by stormyrider]

[Edited on 6/10/2020 by stormyrider]


porkchopbob - 6/10/2020 at 01:42 PM

quote:
It is what you libs do!

Some people generalize the make the world easier for themselves to understand.


porkchopbob - 6/10/2020 at 01:45 PM

quote:
quote:
The days I don't read, listen or watch any news I feel liberated!

That is most days for me. And yes it feels great. Makes it so when you do allow info, you are not preprogrammed by the constant blitz.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows

Cable news is meant to drive people into a fury, and people expect dramatic updates every day. I read most of my content, it avoids the editorializing that drives some people mad.


nebish - 6/10/2020 at 01:55 PM

quote:
quote:
That idiot Rachel Maddow was practically in tears about how Georgia was going to be ovedrrun. It did not happen.


This is your first foolish mistake - watching supermarket tabloid trash and expecting to get real news.


Some true colors coming through there by our "new" member.


MartinD28 - 6/10/2020 at 03:20 PM

quote:
^ "Member" is certainly the correct term.


Or maybe temporary visitor?


kevdab - 6/10/2020 at 03:40 PM


quote
___________
Member"
__________

yup


BIGV - 6/11/2020 at 08:04 PM

quote:
You are bizarrely ignoring that those concerned about the virus resurging are concerned about unsafe crowds.


So, I could not help but notice your use of the phrase, "Unsafe" crowds. Does this open the door for the opposite?..as in "Safe crowds"? Are "safe crowds" only to be found in protests?..How about at outdoor concerts?..Is it even remotely possible that crowds numbering in the thousands might be able to practice the same safety measures that you have stated are being observed in the protest crowds?

Or is that "Just semantics"?....lol


BIGV - 6/11/2020 at 08:07 PM

quote:
Sorry, but “you libs”???


Yes, most definitely. Which "side" do you feel uses the term "racism" in an accusatory manner more often?


BIGV - 6/11/2020 at 09:07 PM

quote:
quote:
Which "side" do you feel uses the term "racism" in an accusatory manner more often?


I’d say the guy playing the race card in his signature is the worst offender, and should probably stuff a sock in it.


Thanks!

Have a greeeeaaat day!


PhotoRon286 - 6/12/2020 at 01:32 AM

quote:
Agree that paying attention to the news is stressful

But, in keeping with the thread title.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/09/coronavirus-hospitalizatio ns-rising/

Many of these states that have experienced an increase in cases have also had an increase in hospitalizations, with a handful of states also nearing bed capacity. Hospitalizations nationwide are difficult to track, with states reporting hospitalization numbers in varying ways, or not at all. Even states that do report hospitalization numbers may not have always received complete data from every hospital in the state at the time of their reports.
Texas has reported 75,616 cases since the pandemic began, and in 10 of the past 15 days, the state’s seven-day average of new cases has increased.
As of Tuesday, it has reported two consecutive days of record-breaking coronavirus hospitalizations. The state has seen a 36 percent increase in new cases since Memorial Day, with a record 2,056 current hospitalizations as of early Tuesday afternoon. It was up from a high of 1,935 hospitalizations on Monday.

Edit to add
The question was asked where are the hosptial over-runs.
In addition to the WP article, there is this

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/10/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html

19 states see rising coronavirus cases and Arizona is asking its hospitals to activate emergency plans



Before my son deployed to NYC last month, his company told everyone to expect to deploy to the South and Midwest this Summer.

They knew those states would see increases the way they opened things up way too early.

Looking forward to lots of trumpsters with no masks, in Jacksonville, for their maga party this Summer.

Wott could go wrong?


cyclone88 - 6/12/2020 at 02:07 PM

quote:
I think I just figured out who you are. Man, you are one sly operator!


Care to share? A banned poster who's returned? A troll just baiting & baiting & baiting? This cloak & dagger stuff is creepy.


cyclone88 - 6/12/2020 at 06:47 PM

quote:
Creepy indeed. It is definitely an old hand here. I can't say any more, but we are on it. First step was locating where and how they managed to access the internet.

Accessed the internet? Are they in prison? Never mind.

Please finish your detective work before you post again in other threads; you're really off your game & not making friends. I say this as someone who generally agrees w/you & laughs at your silly attempts to lighten things when they get too dark.


nebish - 6/12/2020 at 10:41 PM

quote:
quote:
Agree that paying attention to the news is stressful

But, in keeping with the thread title.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/09/coronavirus-hospitalizatio ns-rising/

Many of these states that have experienced an increase in cases have also had an increase in hospitalizations, with a handful of states also nearing bed capacity. Hospitalizations nationwide are difficult to track, with states reporting hospitalization numbers in varying ways, or not at all. Even states that do report hospitalization numbers may not have always received complete data from every hospital in the state at the time of their reports.
Texas has reported 75,616 cases since the pandemic began, and in 10 of the past 15 days, the state’s seven-day average of new cases has increased.
As of Tuesday, it has reported two consecutive days of record-breaking coronavirus hospitalizations. The state has seen a 36 percent increase in new cases since Memorial Day, with a record 2,056 current hospitalizations as of early Tuesday afternoon. It was up from a high of 1,935 hospitalizations on Monday.

Edit to add
The question was asked where are the hosptial over-runs.
In addition to the WP article, there is this

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/10/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html

19 states see rising coronavirus cases and Arizona is asking its hospitals to activate emergency plans



Before my son deployed to NYC last month, his company told everyone to expect to deploy to the South and Midwest this Summer.

They knew those states would see increases the way they opened things up way too early.

Looking forward to lots of trumpsters with no masks, in Jacksonville, for their maga party this Summer.

Wott could go wrong?



Third time you have posted that. I think before though you just said Midwest though.


Stephen - 6/12/2020 at 10:55 PM

quote:
I predict the media will falsely position red states as having growing cases compared to blue states, in a desperate smear attempt. Watch for it. But nothing will work. Trump will win again, especially with Biden’s ridiculously weak campaign thus far.


VP update, AP is saying Kamala Harris, Susan Rice and Elizabeth Warren are finalists
Yep you guys were right, Hillary didn’t make the cut - glad I didn’t take the wager that was offered


PhotoRon286 - 6/16/2020 at 12:33 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Agree that paying attention to the news is stressful

But, in keeping with the thread title.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/09/coronavirus-hospitalizatio ns-rising/

Many of these states that have experienced an increase in cases have also had an increase in hospitalizations, with a handful of states also nearing bed capacity. Hospitalizations nationwide are difficult to track, with states reporting hospitalization numbers in varying ways, or not at all. Even states that do report hospitalization numbers may not have always received complete data from every hospital in the state at the time of their reports.
Texas has reported 75,616 cases since the pandemic began, and in 10 of the past 15 days, the state’s seven-day average of new cases has increased.
As of Tuesday, it has reported two consecutive days of record-breaking coronavirus hospitalizations. The state has seen a 36 percent increase in new cases since Memorial Day, with a record 2,056 current hospitalizations as of early Tuesday afternoon. It was up from a high of 1,935 hospitalizations on Monday.

Edit to add
The question was asked where are the hosptial over-runs.
In addition to the WP article, there is this

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/10/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html

19 states see rising coronavirus cases and Arizona is asking its hospitals to activate emergency plans



Before my son deployed to NYC last month, his company told everyone to expect to deploy to the South and Midwest this Summer.

They knew those states would see increases the way they opened things up way too early.

Looking forward to lots of trumpsters with no masks, in Jacksonville, for their maga party this Summer.

Wott could go wrong?



Third time you have posted that. I think before though you just said Midwest though.


No, they mentioned both areas.

Looks like the Midwest is doing much better than the South.

Things are looking grim in Floriduh and Texas.


porkchopbob - 6/16/2020 at 12:58 PM

quote:
VP update, AP is saying Kamala Harris, Susan Rice and Elizabeth Warren are finalists
Yep you guys were right, Hillary didn’t make the cut - glad I didn’t take the wager that was offered


Yeah, no way he would bring Hillary and her baggage back on. No way she would take a back seat. I think Harris or Rice are great choices. I like Warren, but she doesn't have the broad appeal that Biden really needs.


MartinD28 - 6/16/2020 at 01:33 PM

quote:
quote:
VP update, AP is saying Kamala Harris, Susan Rice and Elizabeth Warren are finalists
Yep you guys were right, Hillary didn’t make the cut - glad I didn’t take the wager that was offered


Yeah, no way he would bring Hillary and her baggage back on. No way she would take a back seat. I think Harris or Rice are great choices. I like Warren, but she doesn't have the broad appeal that Biden really needs.


Of those listed, my choices in order would be Rice, Harris, and not Warren. I think Val Demings of Florida would also be a good choice (HOR member & former police chief for Orlando). There are others, but Joe will pick along with advisors.

HC was a nonstarter. Why anyone would have thought she would have either been a prez or vp nominee baffles me. She's done.


Rusty - 6/16/2020 at 01:44 PM

quote:
quote:
VP update, AP is saying Kamala Harris, Susan Rice and Elizabeth Warren are finalists
Yep you guys were right, Hillary didn’t make the cut - glad I didn’t take the wager that was offered


Yeah, no way he would bring Hillary and her baggage back on. No way she would take a back seat. I think Harris or Rice are great choices. I like Warren, but she doesn't have the broad appeal that Biden really needs.


"Broad appeal". Now, that's just sexist as hell dontch'a think?


porkchopbob - 6/16/2020 at 01:58 PM

quote:
"Broad appeal". Now, that's just sexist as hell dontch'a think?

haha, I won't lie, I was thinking that as I was typing it.


BIGV - 6/16/2020 at 03:46 PM

If Hillary could not beat Trump, how is creepy Joe gonna pull it off?


2112 - 6/16/2020 at 04:00 PM

quote:
If Hillary could not beat Trump, how is creepy Joe gonna pull it off?


Because people have experienced the Trump nightmare long enough. It is obvious McConnell thinks Trump is going to lose, as he is making a last ditch effort to pack the courts while he can. I know you are going to reject the polls, but at this point it is looking like a Biden landslide. The senate is also looking to be in play, which nobody believed would be possible last year. McConnell might even lose his seat. Everyday Trump opens his mouth he falls a little more in the polls and he may take the senate with him.


BIGV - 6/16/2020 at 04:18 PM

quote:
quote:
If Hillary could not beat Trump, how is creepy Joe gonna pull it off?


Because people have experienced the Trump nightmare long enough. It is obvious McConnell thinks Trump is going to lose, as he is making a last ditch effort to pack the courts while he can. I know you are going to reject the polls, but at this point it is looking like a Biden landslide. The senate is also looking to be in play, which nobody believed would be possible last year. McConnell might even lose his seat. Everyday Trump opens his mouth he falls a little more in the polls and he may take the senate with him.


Well, as always, I have never placed any faith in Polls and I believe the same scenario that played out in '16 is going to repeat itself here in 2020. You democrats have learned nothing in 4 years, take a look at this board and the response anyone here receives at the slightest hint of supporting the President. We are still so polarized and I think the left perceives the Trump supporters unwillingness to argue and defend their positions for fear of the same type of backlash you see daily here as a vote for Biden. The silence speaks volumes and come election day you are going to be shocked yet again.


2112 - 6/16/2020 at 04:30 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
If Hillary could not beat Trump, how is creepy Joe gonna pull it off?


Because people have experienced the Trump nightmare long enough. It is obvious McConnell thinks Trump is going to lose, as he is making a last ditch effort to pack the courts while he can. I know you are going to reject the polls, but at this point it is looking like a Biden landslide. The senate is also looking to be in play, which nobody believed would be possible last year. McConnell might even lose his seat. Everyday Trump opens his mouth he falls a little more in the polls and he may take the senate with him.


Well, as always, I have never placed any faith in Polls and I believe the same scenario that played out in '16 is going to repeat itself here in 2020. You democrats have learned nothing in 4 years, take a look at this board and the response anyone here receives at the slightest hint of supporting the President. We are still so polarized and I think the left perceives the Trump supporters unwillingness to argue and defend their positions for fear of the same type of backlash you see daily here as a vote for Biden. The silence speaks volumes and come election day you are going to be shocked yet again.


Maybe the polls are wrong, but most polls showed Hillary up by about 2 points. The polls are showing Biden up by 8 to 12 points. I think you are underestimating the dislike of Trump in this country. He still has is 40% floor that he will never lose no matter how bad he is, but even with the electoral college advantage he has, it will be as much a miracle for him to win as coronavirus being gone by April.


cyclone88 - 6/16/2020 at 04:34 PM

quote:
take a look at this board...and come election day you are going to be shocked yet again.

You may want to take a closer look at this board. I've never said anything except I think Trump will be re-elected. Frankly, I couldn't care less who the dem VP nominee is. I find all the polls/predictions/prognostications re the election for 2 years to be an enormous waste of my time so I don't participate in speculation. In 2016, I paid zero attention prior to Election Day except to vote in the NY primary, voted, & woke up to find Trump had won. THAT was a surprise. Having him win again in 2020 wouldn't surprise me in the least.

It may be easier for you to lump everyone of the same party into a single mindset, but it has nothing to do w/reality.


BIGV - 6/16/2020 at 04:44 PM

quote:
I think you are underestimating the dislike of Trump in this country.


And I believe you are overestimating the "power" of assumption. People don't disagree, therefore they are voting for Biden.

Once again the "Fly-over" states will reign


BIGV - 6/16/2020 at 04:54 PM

quote:
I never underestimate the power of ignorance.


Is this a Biden reference?


MartinD28 - 6/16/2020 at 05:14 PM

Periodically I feel the need to do a confidence post, reality check, and use The Charity Challenge to give any believer in Donald Trump the chance to win $. I take Biden, and you can have Trump. Bets start at $100.00.

For anyone who has taken the other challenge - that HC will enter as a candidate or be a VP on the ticket, I'm upping the odds to 3:1 to add to current bets.

Anybody game here? Back your posts & show your confidence in Trump to win & HC to be the VP nominee since you've already lost out on HC becoming the prez nominee.


2112 - 6/16/2020 at 05:34 PM

quote:
quote:
I think you are underestimating the dislike of Trump in this country.


And I believe you are overestimating the "power" of assumption. People don't disagree, therefore they are voting for Biden.

Once again the "Fly-over" states will reign


You make is sound like Trump supporters are quiet wallflowers. I find them quite the opposite. Trump supporters love those red hats and they will use any opportunity to insult the "libtards" and hail Trump the greatest president in history. Those people are still out there, but fortunately they are a minority. But like Trump says, anything that doesn't praise him is fake news. Must be depressing for Trump when his favorite Fox News polls show him down 10 points to Biden.


BIGV - 6/16/2020 at 05:53 PM

quote:
Trump supporters love those red hats


And your point is?......Just who exactly do those red hats bother?

So, if you are "bothered" by a red hat. whose issue is that?


BIGV - 6/16/2020 at 06:03 PM

quote:
If you are bothered by people who are bothered by a red hat whose issue is that?


I am not. But the question remains. "What is the problem with the red hats"?


BIGV - 6/16/2020 at 06:23 PM

quote:
quote:
And your point is?


quote:
take a look at this board and the response anyone here receives at the slightest hint of supporting the President. I think the left perceives the Trump supporters unwillingness to argue and defend their positions for fear


quote:
But the question remains. "What is the problem with the red hats"?


Brother BIGV, just because you and I are among the first group of voters in American history to cosplay for a United States President, they want to label us as radical extremist cult members, or something. There are many groups of people that wear identifiable clothing and symbols to mark themselves as members of a group or clan........it's not radical or abnormal at all, right? It's as American as apple pie to us true Patriots, am I right Brother BIGV?


The attempt at condescension is humorous; I am not your brother.

Clear?


BIGV - 6/16/2020 at 06:27 PM

quote:
What is the problem with Redcoats?

What is the problem with Bluecoats?

No problem with the apparel, but the sympathies they advertise.


So, is the the issue the alleged antagonist?...or the individual who claims the hat and wearer are purposely trying to antagonize?

If the answer is (B) you may be a snowflake


nebish - 6/19/2020 at 01:02 PM

Big day yesterday.

One of the strangest things was seeing the airport parking lot so empty. They closed off the extended lot and let everyone park in long term at the extended rate ($8 a day). Limited airline workers at the baggage counters, not many customers. Security was a breeze, I'm TSA pre, there were only 2 of us going through for an 8:30am flight. Airport pretty dead except for a couple of gates that had flights. Some food shops open. Magazine/snack/book store open. All other shops closed. It felt like when you are at the airport late at night and everything is closed.

There was almost universal mask wearing in the airport. A rare exception of an individual who didn't have one on...some people had their's pulled down around their neck. Southwest is not sitting anyone in their middle seat through September 30th unless passengers are flying together they can sit there. Anyone who did not have a mask was given one at the gate. The only people I saw who didn't while boarding were teenage kids flying alone. SW gave them masks. SW offered snacks and water, no other beverages. The flight was maybe 2/3 full.

Rental car place was the least busy I've ever seen it. We were only people getting a car the entire time we were at the counter! Beats the 30minute or longer waits in line! That was really nice. Denver traffic wasn't bad for mid day.

Here in a rural mountain town of Colorado, I see more people wearing masks around town than I did back in Ohio. This county has had under 100 coronavirus cases, 3/4 of which came from nursing home residents and staff. Nobody is currently hospitalized here with covid, the hospital is at 40% capacity just with normal every day use.

Town is busy. Tourist season is here. Talked to my realtor friend, he said in some ways he is busier than normal. The number of closings are down and the days on market are up from both last month and this time last year. But median price is up.

Like Ohio, Colorado new cases have been steadily declining, as have hospitalizations. Felt ok about leaving a state that has good trajectory on numbers coming to a state that has good trajectory on numbers. Hopefully didn't catch anything at the airport or to and from.

Colorado no longer has a self isolation for out of state people. Restaurants here are open with limited seating, most have tried to expand outdoor seating. One town nearby closed a street so businesses could put tables out there. Breweries are not open it doesn't look like (edit - they're open to make beer, but not for customers to come drink). My friend goes to a local winery out here, he says they open up one day a week for customers.

We won't be spending much time around town anyway. In the mountains we go!

[Edited on 6/19/2020 by nebish]


BIGV - 6/19/2020 at 01:06 PM

quote:
The Redhats wear red hats as a symbol of their sympathies.


Is this not why anyone wears a hat with a political emblem or meaning? If so, why repeatedly point it out?


porkchopbob - 6/19/2020 at 04:14 PM

quote:
Breweries are not open it doesn't look like (edit - they're open to make beer, but not for customers to come drink). My friend goes to a local winery out here, he says they open up one day a week for customers.

That's interesting, here in Florida breweries are open (at 50% capacity, like restaurants), but bars are not. It's a loophole since breweries are classified as manufacturers with a sampling room (which is essentially a bar). Meanwhile, cases are climbing and the Governor shows no sign of changing his re-opening plan. Just have to wait and see how it goes.


2112 - 6/20/2020 at 12:25 AM

quote:
quote:
Trump supporters love those red hats


And your point is?......Just who exactly do those red hats bother?

So, if you are "bothered" by a red hat. whose issue is that?


I'm not bothered with them at all. In fact, I appreciate the advanced warning of the type of person I might be forced to interact with. You know, a loud mouth, immigrant hating, science denying, cult member that thinks wearing a mask is a sign of liberal weakness. I usually try to avoid them, but I appreciate the warning in the event that I'm forced to interact with them.


Stephen - 6/20/2020 at 01:37 AM

I’m confused - do you see wearing a Trump hat as “a message of support for the president” or an indication of fanaticism? Most of your post says it’s simply Trump fans supporting their guy (which I would agree with), then at the end see it as fanaticism
could be misunderstanding
all good & welcome aboard!


BIGV - 6/20/2020 at 05:26 AM

quote:
We should only interpret the red hat as meaning support for the President, nothing more nothing less. I don’t see any reason to look more into it than that. But to wear attire to show support of a sitting U.S. President would indicate a symptom of fanaticism, IMO. But I think it is misguided of the left to immediately associate a red hat with racism or anything of the sort.


Boynton Brother, what is up!


cyclone88 - 6/20/2020 at 03:13 PM

quote:
Boynton Brother, what is up!


So you see it, too. Banned & joined anew all in one day.

I'm out.


tcatanesi - 6/20/2020 at 03:17 PM

quote:
We should only interpret the red hat as meaning support for the President, nothing more nothing less. I don’t see any reason to look more into it than that.

MAGA really means Make America White Again.

Code for they angry white conservative people.


Rusty - 6/22/2020 at 05:45 PM

Here in the Golden Isles - pretty much everything has opened to original capacity. Some business (notably some restaurants) have actually started to take it upon themselves to re-close after several staff tested positive for Covid.

I have done (at least) my part to support several of my favorites - including regularly ordering take-out and over-tipping. Just yesterday (Father's Day) I visited my absolute favorite place (pick-up to go). I was astounded! EVERY table and booth filled beyond capacity. Folks lined up like sardines and pushing like a locomotive to get it. Even wearing a mask - it just didn't feel safe.

Looks like the tourists are here in full force. For the rest of the summer, I'm letting them support the restaurants.


Sang - 6/23/2020 at 07:45 PM

Illinois got hit hard early .... now we are the only state to actually follow the CDC guidelines for opening up and our numbers are going down. We are starting phase 4 this Friday - which will open up a lot more stuff, including dining indoors (with limitations). Almost every place here requires a mask - and compliance has been pretty good by where I live..... we'll see what this next phase brings.


porkchopbob - 6/23/2020 at 08:41 PM

South Florida has gone backwards a bit. Some restaurants are more packed than others, especially if it's closer to a bar than a restaurant since bars are still not open. Some are back to featuring live music. Breweries are open, however, which is a loophole in their classification as a manufacturer where you can sample. Some are being careful by wearing masks and limiting occupancy, other establishments have rolled the clock back to February.

Meanwhile, cases are back up. Miami-Dade, Broward, and Palm Beach counties are back to either requiring masks in public or are considering it in an effort to get case numbers back in decline without closing businesses that only just re-opened. None of that bodes well for bars that are eager to re-open.


stormyrider - 6/24/2020 at 08:22 PM

A while ago someone posted a comment something like -
where are the increases in cases in Texas and Florida? Its not happening and it's not gonna happen'


Sadly, that person was wrong.
It's happening


Jerry - 6/26/2020 at 08:40 PM

quote:
quote:
We should only interpret the red hat as meaning support for the President, nothing more nothing less. I don’t see any reason to look more into it than that.

MAGA really means Make America White Again.

Code for they angry white conservative people.


Here's one for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb1EDmVtg5M

You don't have to do the survey or a text, but watch the whole video.


nebish - 7/2/2020 at 05:51 PM

I got home a couple days ago from a nearly 2 week trip to Colorado.

When I left Ohio was near their low point for 7 day, 14 day and 21 day rolling average case count increases (380, 399 and 427). Now, Ohio has nearly matched our high case count increases in the respective averages (872, 745, 632). Big turn around! Our all time 7-day average new case count high was April 21 at 920. The current is less than 50 off that. Our 14-day average of 745 is the new high and our 21-day average is just 30 off of our May 8th record high. After 26 straight days of lower hospitalization rates, Ohio now has seen 6 days in a row with increasing admissions, current average is +18 a day. Similarly with ICU beds statewide, we had experienced an even longer drop in ICU use, but now are averaging about 3-5 new ones a day. Although statewide hospitalizations and ICU use are still very much below their peaks currently (724 currently hospitalized vs 1110 peak, 244 currently in ICU vs 524 peak).

Data in my county looks to be holding steady, about 12 new cases a day and 2.5 new hospitalizations a day which aren't too much higher than a couple weeks ago.

While I get my arms around these figures, I will be very very curious what happens in the county in which I visited in Colorado.

The summer season tourist traffic is booming! My local friends think it may actually be busier than ever as more people from the front range Denver/Colorado Springs area are vacationing closer to home in their own state rather than traveling abroad then there is the typical Texas and Arizona part-timers and vacationers there as well. From local news stories: An ATV and Jeep rental company says their June business is up 46% from 2019. A rafting company says that some of their group contracts with youth groups were canceled, but they are seeing more family booking than before. A bicycle rental company says they are busier than they ever planned to be. One bike rental owner said he wished he would've taken out a loan in February to buy every bike he could so he had more to rent now! He's booked up and sold out.

As I had said before, mask usage and distancing in Colorado is much more prevalent then what I see here in Ohio.

This rural mountain area has only seen about 80 coronavirus cases to date, vast majority of which are linked to a nursing home. Statewide Colorado appears to be experiencing only a modest increase in cases right now. Will the summer season keep it that way?


BIGV - 7/2/2020 at 11:02 PM

quote:
MAGA really means Make America White Again.


Kind of sad that you choose to see it that way. But hey, your call, right?


stormyrider - 7/3/2020 at 01:46 PM

Went out to dinner for the 1st time last night. Sat outside. It was great. Wait staff wore masks, we did walking in and out.

Things are stable in MA and NH. We opened up slowly, we wear masks. I think that makes a big difference
There are no guarantees that it won’t get worse again.
I like to think that the approach that we took to this, although painful, made a difference


nebish - 7/13/2020 at 01:27 AM

Ohio has essentially set a new high on our rolling 7 day average for new cases 11 straight days. Hospitalizations back where they were mid-May, about 100 off peak. ICU use is still pretty low compared to peak, current is 45% below our peak. That is atleast good...for now. My specific county overall is holding up better than the statewide numbers...for now, our new cases are still half of what they were at peak.

That rural county I visited in Colorado...after remaining at a long plateau with mid / upper 70s total cases throughout all of June and a slight uptick to 82 cases as of July 8th, the state is now reporting 116 cases there after a recent batch of test results just came in apparently from a few days ago.

Some of the reporting is hard to follow now. Some places do not count cases if they are from out of the county or state. Some places count deaths different ways. Some places count hospitalizations different ways. Sometimes county health department numbers do not match state health department numbers for that county on the same day.


BIGV - 7/13/2020 at 04:52 AM

New cases. The media's shiny ball

"New Cases"!!!!!!

All of these "New cases" and everyone is now wearing masks...

Mmmmmm


stormyrider - 7/13/2020 at 11:45 AM

The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


BIGV - 7/13/2020 at 01:53 PM

quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


& Outdoor protests....


porkchopbob - 7/13/2020 at 04:26 PM

quote:
quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks
Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies

& Outdoor protests....

Yeah, the Anti-Mask protestors have not helped curb the spread.


BIGV - 7/14/2020 at 01:17 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
MAGA really means Make America White Again.


Kind of sad that you choose to see it that way. But hey, your call, right?


Don't be sad, it's just someone else's viewpoint. And hey look they didn't go all snowflake persecution complex and get puffed up on how their views are always under attack - just made a point and moved on.

Why italics and bold on "right" ? Does that somehow give that stale colloquialistic emphasis more mpact?




I am not sad in the least, just a generalization... And for someone who appears to be entertained by my use of italics, you might want to learn to use spell check..


BIGV - 7/14/2020 at 01:18 AM

quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks


And where does this amazing factoid find its origin?


nebish - 7/18/2020 at 11:25 AM

Red Rocks gets set to host its first concert since Coronavirus began. The Colorado Symphony will perform "acoustic on the rocks" July 29- Aug 2. Tickets are on sale.


Jerry - 7/18/2020 at 04:51 PM

quote:
Red Rocks gets set to host its first concert since Coronavirus began. The Colorado Symphony will perform "acoustic on the rocks" July 29- Aug 2. Tickets are on sale.


Will the performers be wearing masks?


stormyrider - 7/18/2020 at 07:26 PM

Going to a drive in concert tomorrow.


nebish - 7/20/2020 at 11:47 AM

quote:
quote:
Red Rocks gets set to host its first concert since Coronavirus began. The Colorado Symphony will perform "acoustic on the rocks" July 29- Aug 2. Tickets are on sale.


Will the performers be wearing masks?


This article doesn't state the musicians will, but Colorado has a mask order so I would think they will be.

https://theknow.denverpost.com/2020/07/17/red-rocks-concerts-2020-colorado- symphony/242045/


nebish - 7/20/2020 at 11:48 AM

quote:
Going to a drive in concert tomorrow.


Cool. How was it?


Jerry - 7/20/2020 at 06:37 PM

quote:
Hope it wasn't a drive in punk rock show, last one I went to the mosh pit was a demolition derby. I am driving a tank next time.


Have you ever tried DC traffic?
Told my wife next time we go I'm buying the oldest pick-up I can find that runs good, welding rail road track down both sides, using same as bumpers (extended 2 feet front and back, and dash cams that cover 360 degree viewing.
Drivers up there think that a sign saying "Lane Ends In 500 Feet" means hit the gas and see if you can get into that
5 foot space between those 18 wheelers.

Only place I've been to where the exit ramps are also entry ramps, in the same lane.


nebish - 7/26/2020 at 08:19 PM

Still open here in Ohio. Mask mandate in effect this past Thursday. I did say and believed the Governor should've mandated it back in the spring. Water under the bridge now.

Ohio's rolling average for new cases are 1300 a day. If that holds for the rest of July we will be about 40,000 new cases in July alone, compared to almost 50,000 cases April, May and June combined! Statewide our hospital usage is back at peak levels, 1000-1100 patients being in the hospital for covid on any given day. Although our ICU use is still some 35% below peak. Our trough for low daily increases was June 8-17th with averages at or below 400 a day....make today's numbers 225% increase off the lows.

My county is holding up better, about 22 new cases a day on average compared to 33 7-day rolling average at our May 8th peak. My county went from being 7th in the state for cases, to currently 10th. So it's worse in other spots in Ohio than it is where I live.

Ohio did recommend Ohioans traveling back home or people traveling from states with 15% positivity rate self-quarantine for 14 days.

My wife's family made their annual summer trip to Myrtle Beach, coronavirus hot spot. They just got home yesterday. Not sure what they will be doing, talking about 14 people in total. We won't be seeing them I know that. Two work at either a hospital in nursing or a long term care facility in administration - they could get tested to see if they can return to work sooner...or those employers might not want them to come in, I don't know.

One of my best friends who lives in Charlotte just returned from his annual family Myrtle Beach trip some time this past week. Today he told me he's been sick since Friday with a 103 fever. Will probably seek a test tomorrow.

Our Governor told a story of a group of students that traveled to Myrtle Beach, 45 of them to be exact. Said that more than half now are positive.

We also have local cases stemming from graduation parties and bars.

Our median age has gone from 63-ish this spring, down to 50s in June, to a current age of 42.


porkchopbob - 7/27/2020 at 04:30 PM

Here's a troubling trend that doesn't bode well for school re-opening.

Child hospitalizations from Covid-19 surge 23% in Florida as schools statewide must reopen
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/27/health/florida-covid-children-hospitalizatio ns/index.html


cyclone88 - 7/27/2020 at 04:48 PM

quote:
Here's a troubling trend that doesn't bode well for school re-opening.

Barron won't be going back to campus full time. St. Andrew's has decided it won't fully re-open. It is currently deciding between the all online format used in the spring or a hybrid where 1/2 of the students will attend in person every other week. They'll make a decision by August 10.


DOVETAIL - 7/27/2020 at 09:02 PM

quote:
quote:
I don't mind using a mask. It isn't that big a deal.


That's not the point. Do they work?...Most of the evidence says no, the particulate is too small...The bandana as a face mask is almost a joke.

Here's you assignment: do some thorough research on efficacy of masks, at three different sources, then report back to us this Friday with your finds,with sources noted.
May you can settle the argument with some information rather than allusions,inference And obstinacy.


DOVETAIL - 7/27/2020 at 09:06 PM

quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.

The latter comment you make, BigV, compels me to ask if you were born obtuse or just worked hard at it the whole of your adult life!?!


stormyrider - 7/27/2020 at 09:36 PM

So where is it written that wearing a mask is giving up a right? The federal govt isn't demanding it - maybe ou would have an argument there. Local and state governments are, and in some cases businesses are.

"no shirt, no shoes, no service"

no smoking

click it or ticket.

no spitting on the sidewalk / in the subway


DOVETAIL - 7/27/2020 at 10:11 PM

quote:
quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


& Outdoor protests....

Reference to protests reaffirms the point, doesn't it V?


nebish - 7/27/2020 at 11:44 PM

My friend got tested today, says results will be back in 3-7 days. They asked him to isolate until results are in. Fever down to 99 now.

Also, I got my haircut for the second since Corona over the weekend. I go to a local salon rather than barber. Price jumped from $11 to $15. Sometimes I let her keep the change on a $20 anyway, but I guess that is cutting into her tip unless customers follow suit and up their end. It's pretty clean in there with lots of sanitizer and precautions. So I assume they bumped the price up to cover extra expenses. That and they can't double book anymore, like if one customer was getting a hair color at 9 they could cut somebody else's hair at 9"15 or whatever (I don't know how long hair coloring takes). She said they can't double book, so her numbers are down...they can't have people sitting around with extra customers in there, so maybe the price increase is due to a decrease in capacity/lost opportunity.


cyclone88 - 7/28/2020 at 11:32 AM

quote:
Who names their kid Barron? Sounds totally WW1 Wilhelm helmet spike. Think I'll name my kid Kaiser.

We're talking about a man who named his daughter after a jewelry store in Trump Tower - Tiffany. King, Duke, Count, and Earl are taken by musicians - Nat King Cole, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, and Earl Scruggs. There's also the song Duke of Earl. Any musical Barrons?


Jerry - 7/28/2020 at 01:11 PM

quote:
quote:
Who names their kid Barron? Sounds totally WW1 Wilhelm helmet spike. Think I'll name my kid Kaiser.

We're talking about a man who named his daughter after a jewelry store in Trump Tower - Tiffany. King, Duke, Count, and Earl are taken by musicians - Nat King Cole, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, and Earl Scruggs. There's also the song Duke of Earl. Any musical Barrons?


Quite a few, even some lyrics with baron in them.
Found a song by Niki Minaj, but I sure am not going to post the lyrics.


BIGV - 7/28/2020 at 01:27 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


& Outdoor protests....

Reference to protests reaffirms the point, doesn't it V?


Why do I continue to reference protests?...Because the left continues to leave them out of the discussion. Let's see, we can't attend concerts, School graduations, bars, beaches or go to Church because this deadly virus spreads from person to person, but protesting, looting & rioting in the streets is OK, because to attempt to stop these infantile acts would be called racist! Just turn on your TV and check out what is happening in Seattle and Portland, why does the public tolerate this B.S.? Ask yourself that. You Can not have the media continuing to sell fear while allowing this to go on. Here's another point, when this masquerade began back in February, the media screamed from the tallest buildings about the Death toll in Spain, the amount of people dying in the streets in Italy. STAY INDOORS they preached. Now, what is the lead story?...CASES. How many are "infected". But I would ask, "How many of these infected souls are actually showing symptoms"?..Kinda disrupts the narrative when the nationwide death toll from this killer is below 0.0006 does it not? Follow the money!....Vegas is open! But don't you dare go to Church!

Yeah, I was one of the early ones to call B.S. and yeah, I continue to do so.

Enough, let's get back to living.


cyclone88 - 7/28/2020 at 01:37 PM

quote:
Kinda weird, all the flak on "Hussein", but nobody gives "Barron" a second thought.

IMO, Trump was thinking of a "royal" name to cement his dynasty (given that Eric & DonJr are sort of like Henry II's kids Useless & Useless Jr) & the other titles were lame. It's spelled w/2 rs so maybe he's named for the financial publication Barron's. Anyway, the little prince won't be back at school in September.


BIGV - 7/28/2020 at 03:11 PM

quote:
quote:
Follow the money!....Vegas is open! But don't you dare go to Church!

Yeah, I was one of the early ones to call B.S. and yeah, I continue to do so.


https://www.conspiracydate.com/


quote:
"But there is no world in which the Constitution permits Nevada to favor Caesars Palace over Calvary Chapel,"


Supreme Court Justice Neil Gorsuch


pops42 - 7/28/2020 at 03:23 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


& Outdoor protests....

Reference to protests reaffirms the point, doesn't it V?


Why do I continue to reference protests?...Because the left continues to leave them out of the discussion. Let's see, we can't attend concerts, School graduations, bars, beaches or go to Church because this deadly virus spreads from person to person, but protesting, looting & rioting in the streets is OK, because to attempt to stop these infantile acts would be called racist! Just turn on your TV and check out what is happening in Seattle and Portland, why does the public tolerate this B.S.? Ask yourself that. You Can not have the media continuing to sell fear while allowing this to go on. Here's another point, when this masquerade began back in February, the media screamed from the tallest buildings about the Death toll in Spain, the amount of people dying in the streets in Italy. STAY INDOORS they preached. Now, what is the lead story?...CASES. How many are "infected". But I would ask, "How many of these infected souls are actually showing symptoms"?..Kinda disrupts the narrative when the nationwide death toll from this killer is below 0.0006 does it not? Follow the money!....Vegas is open! But don't you dare go to Church!

Yeah, I was one of the early ones to call B.S. and yeah, I continue to do so.

Enough, let's get back to living.
Its those like YOU, who refuse to wear a mask, that make Arizona the hotspot for Covid 19 infection and death in the country. it would be fine if just the idiots who wont wear a mask would die, but they put us all at risk.


stormyrider - 7/28/2020 at 03:36 PM

I'm pretty sure no one has said that looting and burning is OK

I've seen some videos from Portland. There is vandalism. It is wrong and not defensible

There are peaceful protesters wearing masks. No problem with that.

There are unmarked feds beating people. Also wrong and not defensible.


Meanwhile people in their 20s and 30s are going out to bars, getting infected, and infecting other people. There is an outbreak on the FLA Marlins.

We all want to go back to living. I would like to stay alive while doing it.


BIGV - 7/28/2020 at 03:40 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


& Outdoor protests....

Reference to protests reaffirms the point, doesn't it V?


Why do I continue to reference protests?...Because the left continues to leave them out of the discussion. Let's see, we can't attend concerts, School graduations, bars, beaches or go to Church because this deadly virus spreads from person to person, but protesting, looting & rioting in the streets is OK, because to attempt to stop these infantile acts would be called racist! Just turn on your TV and check out what is happening in Seattle and Portland, why does the public tolerate this B.S.? Ask yourself that. You Can not have the media continuing to sell fear while allowing this to go on. Here's another point, when this masquerade began back in February, the media screamed from the tallest buildings about the Death toll in Spain, the amount of people dying in the streets in Italy. STAY INDOORS they preached. Now, what is the lead story?...CASES. How many are "infected". But I would ask, "How many of these infected souls are actually showing symptoms"?..Kinda disrupts the narrative when the nationwide death toll from this killer is below 0.0006 does it not? Follow the money!....Vegas is open! But don't you dare go to Church!

Yeah, I was one of the early ones to call B.S. and yeah, I continue to do so.

Enough, let's get back to living.
Its those like YOU, who refuse to wear a mask, that make Arizona the hotspot for Covid 19 infection and death in the country. it would be fine if just the idiots who wont wear a mask would die, but they put us all at risk.


"At risk"...Of being a carrier?...Of showing symptoms?...And to your point of just exactly who qualifies for the crown of idiot, how many people are visiting Phoenix, The Grand canyon and Sedona are from states where their own "Mandates" have stated they must stay at home? How many of those "idiots" come here and refuse to wear a mask?

And by the way the latest info from AZ related to this killer virus is 164,000 Cases and 3320 Deaths, that is roughly 1 in 55 people who contact this killer virus in AZ and perish from it, that's less than 2%...Now, while I wish no one to die for any reason...How do these "Hot spot" numbers match up against the "idiots" in your home state? Oh, and these stats make no mention of the Hopi and Navajo nations where immune systems and isolation are not factored into those figures. Throw in the propensity for the medical examiners to also list a heart attack, lightning strike, or auto accident as a Covid death based on a prior positive test and you've quite a dilemma proving your idiocy claim.


BIGV - 7/28/2020 at 03:41 PM

quote:
I've seen some videos from Portland. There is vandalism. It is wrong and not defensible


Thank You


porkchopbob - 7/28/2020 at 04:18 PM

quote:
I'm pretty sure no one has said that looting and burning is OK

I've seen some videos from Portland. There is vandalism. It is wrong and not defensible

There are peaceful protesters wearing masks. No problem with that.

There are unmarked feds beating people. Also wrong and not defensible.

Meanwhile people in their 20s and 30s are going out to bars, getting infected, and infecting other people. There is an outbreak on the FLA Marlins.

We all want to go back to living. I would like to stay alive while doing it.

Well said. There are more factors at work here, those who choose tunnel vision in order to address their agenda only exacerbate the situation.


nebish - 7/28/2020 at 04:57 PM

Points taken all around, but with what BigV is saying, there is a lot of messed up stuff and confusion in sorting through the data and what's causing who's doing what and who's not doing what - which is why I have all but stopped paying attention except to my most local and specific circumstances. I'm simply not interested in arguing with anyone and I am no longer interested in learning about any of it because I don't know what to believe, my head is awash of conflict and confusion re coronavirus...I feel better just putting my head in the sand on it at this point.



[Edited on 7/28/2020 by nebish]


BIGV - 7/28/2020 at 05:19 PM

quote:
Points taken all around, but with what BigV is saying, there is a lot of messed up stuff and confusion in sorting through the data and what's causing who's doing what and who's not doing what - which is why I have all but stopped paying attention except to my most local and specific circumstances. I'm simply not interested in arguing with anyone and I am no longer interested in learning about any of it because I don't know what to believe, my head is awash of conflict and confusion re coronavirus...I feel better just putting my head in the sand on it at this point.


Understandable. "Messed up stuff" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface....Let's start with the pitch the country's leading "Expert" threw at the baseball game the other day, bad enough he throws like a 5 year old girl, but was then seen sitting right next to his friends in the stands with NO mask.

Masks. Most of the country wears 'em and still the number of CASES climb and confusion reigns with the blame now resting solely on those who don't conform being labeled as selfish for not believing a simple piece of cloth is the cure all. You would think Dr. Fauci would be aware that he is being photographed everywhere he goes. How about a little bit of "Practicing what you preach, Doc"?


porkchopbob - 7/28/2020 at 05:23 PM

quote:
Points taken all around, but with what BigV is saying, there is a lot of messed up stuff and confusion in sorting through the data and what's causing who's doing what and who's not doing what - which is why I have all but stopped paying attention except to my most local and specific circumstances. I'm simply not interested in arguing with anyone and I am no longer interested in learning about any of it because I don't know what to believe, my head is awash of conflict and confusion re coronavirus...I feel better just putting my head in the sand on it at this point.


If you're looking for something to change on a daily basis, yeah, you're going to get exhausted. It's clear this is a marathon and not a sprint, and none of it is going to be fair. There will be more cases every day, it's inevitable and it's frustrating. States have their own data and approach, but the closest thing we have to a centralized source of information is Fauci now that the CDC has taken a back seat. I'm not aware of many other countries with such an inconsistent response. The information is there and hasn't changed very much, but some of what's legit has been needlessly contradicted by politicians who have no business doing so (how many Governors fought mask mandates only to later come around?). Had there been consistent communication at the Federal level there would be far less confusion and public exhaustion.


DOVETAIL - 7/28/2020 at 06:31 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


& Outdoor protests....

Reference to protests reaffirms the point, doesn't it V?


Why do I continue to reference protests?...Because the left continues to leave them out of the discussion. Let's see, we can't attend concerts, School graduations, bars, beaches or go to Church because this deadly virus spreads from person to person, but protesting, looting & rioting in the streets is OK, because to attempt to stop these infantile acts would be called racist! Just turn on your TV and check out what is happening in Seattle and Portland, why does the public tolerate this B.S.? Ask yourself that. You Can not have the media continuing to sell fear while allowing this to go on. Here's another point, when this masquerade began back in February, the media screamed from the tallest buildings about the Death toll in Spain, the amount of people dying in the streets in Italy. STAY INDOORS they preached. Now, what is the lead story?...CASES. How many are "infected". But I would ask, "How many of these infected souls are actually showing symptoms"?..Kinda disrupts the narrative when the nationwide death toll from this killer is below 0.0006 does it not? Follow the money!....Vegas is open! But don't you dare go to Church!

Yeah, I was one of the early ones to call B.S. and yeah, I continue to do so.

Enough, let's get back to living.

Your missionary zeal is as laudable as your simple-minded view of the world.


BIGV - 7/28/2020 at 06:55 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


& Outdoor protests....

Reference to protests reaffirms the point, doesn't it V?


Why do I continue to reference protests?...Because the left continues to leave them out of the discussion. Let's see, we can't attend concerts, School graduations, bars, beaches or go to Church because this deadly virus spreads from person to person, but protesting, looting & rioting in the streets is OK, because to attempt to stop these infantile acts would be called racist! Just turn on your TV and check out what is happening in Seattle and Portland, why does the public tolerate this B.S.? Ask yourself that. You Can not have the media continuing to sell fear while allowing this to go on. Here's another point, when this masquerade began back in February, the media screamed from the tallest buildings about the Death toll in Spain, the amount of people dying in the streets in Italy. STAY INDOORS they preached. Now, what is the lead story?...CASES. How many are "infected". But I would ask, "How many of these infected souls are actually showing symptoms"?..Kinda disrupts the narrative when the nationwide death toll from this killer is below 0.0006 does it not? Follow the money!....Vegas is open! But don't you dare go to Church!

Yeah, I was one of the early ones to call B.S. and yeah, I continue to do so.

Enough, let's get back to living.

Your missionary zeal is as laudable as your simple-minded view of the world.


Thanks for sharing


pops42 - 7/28/2020 at 07:17 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The new cases are coming from places that people weren’t wearing masks

Going to bars, indoor restaurants, indoor political rallies


& Outdoor protests....

Reference to protests reaffirms the point, doesn't it V?


Why do I continue to reference protests?...Because the left continues to leave them out of the discussion. Let's see, we can't attend concerts, School graduations, bars, beaches or go to Church because this deadly virus spreads from person to person, but protesting, looting & rioting in the streets is OK, because to attempt to stop these infantile acts would be called racist! Just turn on your TV and check out what is happening in Seattle and Portland, why does the public tolerate this B.S.? Ask yourself that. You Can not have the media continuing to sell fear while allowing this to go on. Here's another point, when this masquerade began back in February, the media screamed from the tallest buildings about the Death toll in Spain, the amount of people dying in the streets in Italy. STAY INDOORS they preached. Now, what is the lead story?...CASES. How many are "infected". But I would ask, "How many of these infected souls are actually showing symptoms"?..Kinda disrupts the narrative when the nationwide death toll from this killer is below 0.0006 does it not? Follow the money!....Vegas is open! But don't you dare go to Church!

Yeah, I was one of the early ones to call B.S. and yeah, I continue to do so.

Enough, let's get back to living.

Your missionary zeal is as laudable as your simple-minded view of the world.
big vee knows better then the doctors, scientists, and experts, just like trump.


porkchopbob - 7/30/2020 at 04:41 PM

Herman Cain passes away from COVID-19 complications a month after attending Trump's Tulsa rally without a mask.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/herman-cain-dead-after-battle-with-coronav irus


Rusty - 7/30/2020 at 04:43 PM

quote:
Herman Cain passes away from COVID-19 complications a month after attending Trump's Tulsa rally without a mask.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/herman-cain-dead-after-battle-with-coronav irus


RIP Herman Cain - another black man deluded by the GOP into thinking that he could become their lizard king.


BIGV - 7/30/2020 at 04:47 PM

quote:
Herman Cain passes away from COVID-19 complications a month after attending Trump's Tulsa rally without a mask.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/herman-cain-dead-after-battle-with-coronav irus


So, Herman Cain passes away after attending a rally, but people who protested had nothing to do with the current spike?

R.I.P. Sir


porkchopbob - 7/30/2020 at 05:06 PM

quote:
So, Herman Cain passes away after attending a rally, but people who protested had nothing to do with the current spike?

Rather than repeatedly grind your axe, maybe gather up some evidence of your theory instead of conjecture and anecdotal evidence.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/06/24/883017035/ what-contact-tracing-may-tell-about-cluster-spread-of-the-coronavirus

quote:
Parties — Not Protests — Are Causing Spikes In Coronavirus

As the U.S. begins to open back up, coronavirus clusters — where multiple people contract COVID-19 at the same event or location — are popping up all over the country. And despite drawing massive crowds, protests against police violence and racial injustice in Washington state weren't among those clusters.

"We did have a rally in Bellingham, which is our county seat, and there was also a protest, and we have not been able to connect a single case to that rally or to the protest, and what we're finding is in large part that's due to the use of masks," Erika Lautenbach, the director of the Whatcom County Health Department in Washington State, tells NPR's All Things Considered. "Almost everyone at the rally was wearing a mask, and it's really a testament to how effective masks are in preventing the spread of this disease."

For the clusters that have popped up, Lautenbach says the state has been using contact tracing to learn more about how they're contributing to the spread of the virus. For instance, it found that 14 cases were associated with a party of 100 to 150 people in early June. Subsequently, 15 more cases were associated with the original 14.

"So that one event spread to 29 people and 31 related employers," Lautenbach says. "Our challenge is to continue to trace as it moves through families, as it moves through workplaces and as it moves through social events as well."

But protests just aren't spreading the disease in the same way, Lautenbach says.

"We're finding that the social events and gatherings, these parties where people aren't wearing masks, are our primary source of infection," Lautenbach says. "And then the secondary source of infection is workplace settings. There were 31 related employers just associated with that one party because of the number of people that brought that to their workplace. So for us, for a community our size, that's a pretty massive spread."

And much of that spread, Lautenbach says, is affecting young people.

"We have seen almost a near flip in the cases that we're experiencing," Lautenbach says. "So in April of this year, we were really struggling with long-term-care outbreaks. And so about 3 out of 4 people were over the age of 30 and really pretty heavily skewed to 60-plus. And by contrast, in June, we're seeing that now 2 out of 3 people that have contracted this disease are under 29."

That trend is mirrored in Florida, where the median age for COVID-19 patients dropped from 65 years old in March to 37 in late June. Dr. Cheryl Holder, an associate professor at Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine at Florida International University, says that's partly because young people are getting exposed more.

"It's really basically who gets exposed," Holder tells Morning Edition. "If you look who is staying in and following the guidelines, [it's] older people who are at risk. The older folks got [the message]; the young people, not so much."

That's Lautenbach's worry too.

"The concern is that because these younger people are having more mild symptoms, they are going to work sick, they are visiting with their parents and grandparents sick and they're continuing to go to social events where they expose more and more people," Lautenbach says. "So when we think about that web of spread, that web just grows and grows and grows."


BIGV - 7/30/2020 at 05:30 PM

quote:
quote:
So, Herman Cain passes away after attending a rally, but people who protested had nothing to do with the current spike?

Rather than repeatedly grind your axe, maybe gather up some evidence of your theory instead of conjecture and anecdotal evidence.


Yes or No. "Do most States have restrictions in place in regard to groups of people gathering"?


Rusty - 7/30/2020 at 05:30 PM

quote:
quote:
Herman Cain passes away from COVID-19 complications a month after attending Trump's Tulsa rally without a mask.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/herman-cain-dead-after-battle-with-coronav irus


So, Herman Cain passes away after attending a rally, but people who protested had nothing to do with the current spike?

R.I.P. Sir


Let me see if I can help you out with this one: Yes, EVERYBODY who has attended a rally, a protest, a riot, a beach (to a lesser degree) and most certainly restaurants and bars has CONTRIBUTED to the virus spikes. If you're not part of the solution - you're most certainly part of the problem! As an American, I can make this observation: everybody in America wants to be the exception to the solution. We're a selfish bunch when you get right down to it.


BIGV - 7/30/2020 at 05:37 PM

quote:
Let me see if I can help you out with this one: Yes, EVERYBODY who has attended a rally, a protest, a riot, a beach (to a lesser degree) and most certainly restaurants and bars has CONTRIBUTED to the virus spikes. If you're not part of the solution - you're most certainly part of the problem! As an American, I can make this observation: everybody in America wants to be the exception to the solution. We're a selfish bunch when you get right down to it.


Agreed, 100%. The same people who loudly criticize others for not wearing a mask have their own personalized little loophole they apply to either their beliefs or actions. Example,.. When I am critical of the border problem and quote the law as my reasoning, there is a faction here that will immediately counter with "Do you ever jaywalk"?

This is the world we live in.


porkchopbob - 7/30/2020 at 05:38 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
So, Herman Cain passes away after attending a rally, but people who protested had nothing to do with the current spike?

Rather than repeatedly grind your axe, maybe gather up some evidence of your theory instead of conjecture and anecdotal evidence.

Yes or No. "Do most States have restrictions in place in regard to groups of people gathering"?

Like Trump rallies?

From the above article I provided for you:
quote:
"We're finding that the social events and gatherings, these parties where people aren't wearing masks, are our primary source of infection," Lautenbach says. "And then the secondary source of infection is workplace settings. There were 31 related employers just associated with that one party because of the number of people that brought that to their workplace. So for us, for a community our size, that's a pretty massive spread."


Seriously.


BIGV - 7/30/2020 at 05:43 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
So, Herman Cain passes away after attending a rally, but people who protested had nothing to do with the current spike?

Rather than repeatedly grind your axe, maybe gather up some evidence of your theory instead of conjecture and anecdotal evidence.

Yes or No. "Do most States have restrictions in place in regard to groups of people gathering"?

Like Trump rallies?

From the above article I provided for you:
quote:
"We're finding that the social events and gatherings, these parties where people aren't wearing masks, are our primary source of infection," Lautenbach says. "And then the secondary source of infection is workplace settings. There were 31 related employers just associated with that one party because of the number of people that brought that to their workplace. So for us, for a community our size, that's a pretty massive spread."


Seriously.


You failed to answer, I wonder why. I didn't ask for a link, or stats...

I asked you


MartinD28 - 7/30/2020 at 05:47 PM

And GOP Congreeman Louie Gohmert, another anti masker was just daignosed as positive. There he was walking the halls of Congress and questioning AG Barr. He was also seen within couple steps of Barr. He was supposed to fly with anti masker Trump to Texas when he was diagnosed.

It's good that nobody infringed upon his freedoms. Wonder how many he may have been in contact with and spread Covid to. But thank goodness for HIS freedom. Anone who contracted from him and got sick, I guess...just too bad, right? It's their problem; not his.


BIGV - 7/30/2020 at 05:51 PM

quote:
And GOP Congreeman Louie Gohmert, another anti masker was just daignosed as positive.


Are there cases where people wore masks religiously and tested positive?

I am guessing there are.


porkchopbob - 7/30/2020 at 06:10 PM

quote:
quote:
And GOP Congreeman Louie Gohmert, another anti masker was just daignosed as positive.

Are there cases where people wore masks religiously and tested positive?

I am guessing there are.

Yes, some health care providers who were repeatedly exposed still contracted it. But some people wear seat belts and still die in car wrecks. Some people wear condoms and still get STDs or pregnant. Figure it out, it's really simple.


stormyrider - 7/30/2020 at 06:24 PM

yes
the risk of contracting the disease is related to duration of exposure and intensity of exposure, ie someone coughing in your face vs just breathing.

The HCW I'm aware of were wearing masks with prolonged exposure, ie in a procedure for more than 1 hour. The patient was not wearing a mask.

Since then hospitals have been requiring everyone to wear masks (at least in New England). All patients wear masks during procedures. That wasn't the case when this first started.

Wearing masks helps the other person as much as you.

edit to add - since the local hospitals are requiring everyone to wear masks, perform testing before procedures, and increase use of N95 in high risk settings, transmission to HCW is near zero

[Edited on 7/30/2020 by stormyrider]


BIGV - 7/30/2020 at 06:28 PM

quote:
Figure it out, it's really simple.


You still have not answered the question posed.

Yes or No. "Do most States have restrictions in place in regard to groups of people gathering"?


porkchopbob - 7/30/2020 at 06:51 PM

quote:
quote:
Figure it out, it's really simple.

You still have not answered the question posed.

Yes or No. "Do most States have restrictions in place in regard to groups of people gathering"?

Because I don't care about your stupid question.

If you have a point, go ahead and make it. If you have a question, look up the answer for yourself.


BIGV - 7/30/2020 at 07:50 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Figure it out, it's really simple.

You still have not answered the question posed.

Yes or No. "Do most States have restrictions in place in regard to groups of people gathering"?

Because I don't care about your stupid question.

If you have a point, go ahead and make it. If you have a question, look up the answer for yourself.


Oh, I have and I am going to venture a guess that you have as well. See all 50 states have some sort of regulation in place concerning large "gatherings". For some it's capacity, others it's a limit on the amount of people who can be in one space or area at one time.

Would a peaceful protest be considered a "Gathering"? For example, in Minnesota, Democratic Gov. Tim Walz allowed "outdoor gatherings" of up to 25 people. Is this not the same state that asked for Federal assistance after "peaceful protesters", rioters and looters were responsible for over 500 Million dollars in damage?..Was all of this done by "peaceful protesters" who had assembled in gatherings of 25 or less? The estimate is that as many as 20 Million have participated in these "Peaceful gatherings" resulting in almost 10,000 arrests and costs that may exceed astronomical totals. Funny how most of this took place in blue states and also proceeded to require the deployment of 4,000 National Guardsmen.

Tip of the iceberg. No, tell us all one more time how "Peaceful Protests" were not as responsible for the increase of cases of Covid19. Tell us again how a Political Rally is just as bad. Explain why these "Gatherings" were not stopped. And then, you can explain the importance of wearing a mask while shopping at Wal-Mart.


Sang - 7/30/2020 at 09:56 PM

Why would anyone want to respond to your continued beating of a dead horse - people have responded numerous times and you still don't want to get it.

There is a difference between being outside and moving and wearing a mask (like most of the protests I have seen) and being inside close together without masks screaming for the orange man to successfully drink water. If you can't see the difference, you are just being obtuse.


nebish - 7/31/2020 at 12:47 AM

My friend got his test results back 2.5 days after his test. Negative. Hard to believe, he has so many symptoms of covid...and considering where he recently was (Myrtle Beach)...but I guess negative is negative.

My wife and I went out to eat tonight at one of our favorite spots. There were 5 of 6 outside tables open. It was only our second time going out to eat since Coronavirus started. She liked it quite a bit...she doesn't get out much other than to our kids houses to do the typical close-nit family stuff. I atleast get over to the shop on a regular basis.

Our governor wants to implement a 10pm last call for bars to try and curb gathering and potential spread in those locations. He can't just do it on his own so we'll have to see how that approval goes through.

We are adding 23 cases a day in my county, still below our spring peak. Statewide we are adding 1300+ cases a day, that is double what our 14 and 21 day rolling averages were in the spring.

Ohio does have a gathering limitation of 10 people, but it has exceptions that effectively make it useless (weddings, funerals, church service, protests)...if you allow all of those things...what is the point of having a 10 person gathering limitation? State fairs are closed down except for junior fairs with no general population admittance.


Stephen - 7/31/2020 at 12:59 AM

One area where America will indeed be reopening w/a bang
.....lawyers
reason, current headline

“First Wave Of Covid-19 Lawsuits Filed By Families Against Companies In Worker Deaths” (WSJrnl)

current death count, 151,000, expected to hit 250,000 by fall
....during a campaign - yes it will be a stormy two post-Labor Day months

Leading up to Election Day & God only know what that will bring, besides a recount

America as we know it is fast-disappearing my friends
That’s my apolitical observation/proclamation/Hijack for the day

Oh, about the masks in recent posts
Bernie Sanders wants to raise funds for free masks for all


nebish - 7/31/2020 at 01:05 AM

quote:
Oh, about the masks in recent posts
Bernie Sanders wants to raise funds for free masks for all


Make those free masks in the USA and I'll support that initiative and proudly pay for it with my tax dollars.

One of my wife's friends saw a woman in a store without a mask. She politely went up to her and said "ma'am, if you would like a mask I have an extra one" which was met with a "F--- You!". Some people really don't like masks.


gina - 7/31/2020 at 01:35 AM

quote:
quote:
Oh, about the masks in recent posts
Bernie Sanders wants to raise funds for free masks for all


Make those free masks in the USA and I'll support that initiative and proudly pay for it with my tax dollars.

One of my wife's friends saw a woman in a store without a mask. She politely went up to her and said "ma'am, if you would like a mask I have an extra one" which was met with a "F--- You!". Some people really don't like masks.


Masks are a touchy thing with people. Being in NY I understand how bad it can get. Someone I work with is Covid positive [past infection], she got it in Miami. She is not in every day, but when she is I mask all day. Other times in the office maybe I let it slide till last week when my bosses grandson was playing with a friend two little boys 6 yrs old, the other kid got really sick that night with a 102 fever, covid positive. My office is shared with someone who works with Covid patients on his other job. We both stay masked when he is in the office suite. It is all around, and Covid can kill you.

Wash hands, wear a mask. When I see someone not masked I tell them I am a health care worker, one of our nurses works in a covid unit, please for your own safety, please wear a mask and do social distancing.

The disease is real.



[Edited on 7/31/2020 by gina]


Jerry - 7/31/2020 at 02:27 AM

quote:
quote:
Oh, about the masks in recent posts
Bernie Sanders wants to raise funds for free masks for all


Make those free masks in the USA and I'll support that initiative and proudly pay for it with my tax dollars.

One of my wife's friends saw a woman in a store without a mask. She politely went up to her and said "ma'am, if you would like a mask I have an extra one" which was met with a "F--- You!". Some people really don't like masks.


Nebish, I stopped at Walmart today and the outside greeter, a BIG, Tall, guy, made sure that those who came by without a mask were offered one for free, while pointing at the "Mask Required" sign.
Nobody walked past him without a mask.


Stephen - 7/31/2020 at 02:28 AM

quote:
It is all around, and Covid can kill you. The disease is real.
quote:


A lot like cancer, you contract it w/out knowing, then the next thing you know, too late

....”God bless you” has given way to bad looks & people quickly moving away - b/c of a sneeze
I understand, it’s the new normal

Pneumonia, bronchitis, chest colds, strep throat, laryngitis, stuffy nose.....you really felt bad w/that stuff - covid & cancer don’t give you that chance

[Edited on 7/31/2020 by Stephen]


cyclone88 - 7/31/2020 at 02:58 AM

quote:
Masks are a touchy thing with people. Being in NY I understand how bad it can get.

The etiquette columnist in today's NYT answered questions about how to politely ask those around us to wear masks. Before responding, he did a test run. 3 different places & genders/ages. He's a well-dressed lawyer in his 50s & was careful to be polite (he writes a column on manners). Struck out all 3 times - a market, dog run where people are close, & post office line. His advice - don't bother. People can't or won't understand that wearing a mask protects US from THEM. They don't care if they make someone sick. Selfish doesn't respond to polite.

I've been to restaurants, stores, synagogue, & a hair stylist where people w/o masks are denied entry by a security guard. Seems like a better solution than expecting a $7/hr cashier to enforce the policy & get grief from a hostile customer or calling the police only to escalate the situation.


nebish - 7/31/2020 at 03:23 AM

I have a friend who works at Walmart. They do have signage about mask requirements (on top of many states already having them) and they do have workers offering masks at the entrance, but Walmart employees are instructed to avoid conflict or any potential physical confrontation at all costs and a shopper denying a mask will be allowed to enter the store despite company and state policy to the contrary. Some stores might have third party security, which I think is probably uncommon at most locations, but for sure Walmart staff will not block people from entering the store without a mask.

What would BigV do if asked to wear a mask to enter a business?


BIGV - 7/31/2020 at 05:13 AM

quote:
I have a friend who works at Walmart. They do have signage about mask requirements (on top of many states already having them) and they do have workers offering masks at the entrance, but Walmart employees are instructed to avoid conflict or any potential physical confrontation at all costs and a shopper denying a mask will be allowed to enter the store despite company and state policy to the contrary. Some stores might have third party security, which I think is probably uncommon at most locations, but for sure Walmart staff will not block people from entering the store without a mask.

What would BigV do if asked to wear a mask to enter a business?


If I want to shop there, I put on a mask. Pretty simple, arguing or making a scene at/with a private business goes against the grain for me. Pick and choose your battles. I will say this, as long as I can social distance outside, I don't wear a mask.


cyclone88 - 7/31/2020 at 12:46 PM

quote:
If I want to shop there, I put on a mask. Pretty simple, arguing or making a scene at/with a private business goes against the grain for me. Pick and choose your battles. I will say this, as long as I can social distance outside, I don't wear a mask.

Which is exactly what everyone should be doing!


porkchopbob - 7/31/2020 at 01:44 PM

quote:
Tip of the iceberg. No, tell us all one more time how "Peaceful Protests" were not as responsible for the increase of cases of Covid19. Tell us again how a Political Rally is just as bad. Explain why these "Gatherings" were not stopped. And then, you can explain the importance of wearing a mask while shopping at Wal-Mart.

I have actually posted several articles that use data and tracking to determine what is causing the rise in cases in some states. I will stick with their findings rather than your incredibly biased conjecture. No one has argued the protesting didn't cause some COVID spread. However, you are the only one who repeatedly ignores all of the other factors as states attempted to re-open this Summer. Here in south Florida people are out, the state has essentially reopened except for schools and bars, mask mandates are being often ignored, and cases are soaring. In most places, protests have waned significantly in the past months, yet cases increase. But you hate the protestors, even those who did so peacefully and safely, so this is your reality. So we get it. Herman Cain was killed by protestors. You are starting to sound like the blackey of anti-protestors, a broken record. Your unsupported theory doesn't need to repeatedly bleed into every single thread. Can we at least talk baseball without your anti-protestor snark?


BIGV - 7/31/2020 at 02:02 PM

quote:
But you hate the protestors, even those who did so peacefully and safely, so this is your reality.


I do not hate anyone. By judgement only, I feel protesting in huge crowds during the time of a pandemic when people are screaming about masks is very, very selfish behavior.

If people can protest "safely"...Why can we not attend sporting events and concerts ..."Safely"?


Rusty - 7/31/2020 at 02:30 PM

Germs within spittle - do not know or care exactly what type of function that they're being spewed and exchanged at. They do not differentiate between rallys, protests, ballgames or bars and restaurants - PERIOD.

I'm not trying to agree or disagree with anybody on this - except perhaps, SCIENTISTS.

Distance + masks = basic, human freakin' common sense.


porkchopbob - 7/31/2020 at 03:11 PM

quote:
If people can protest "safely"...Why can we not attend sporting events and concerts ..."Safely"?

Because protesting is protected by the Constitution, watching a ball game in person is not. Protesting is being done in public places, they aren't going through the same gate to enter and using the same bathroom facilities. There aren't concession exchanging hands. There isn't liability for major corporations. They aren't the same thing.


Jerry - 7/31/2020 at 03:30 PM

quote:
quote:
Masks are a touchy thing with people. Being in NY I understand how bad it can get.

The etiquette columnist in today's NYT answered questions about how to politely ask those around us to wear masks. Before responding, he did a test run. 3 different places & genders/ages. He's a well-dressed lawyer in his 50s & was careful to be polite (he writes a column on manners). Struck out all 3 times - a market, dog run where people are close, & post office line. His advice - don't bother. People can't or won't understand that wearing a mask protects US from THEM. They don't care if they make someone sick. Selfish doesn't respond to polite.

I've been to restaurants, stores, synagogue, & a hair stylist where people w/o masks are denied entry by a security guard. Seems like a better solution than expecting a $7/hr cashier to enforce the policy & get grief from a hostile customer or calling the police only to escalate the situation.




I've said before that if you are someplace and a person keeps getting too close to you, ask them to back away. If they start fussing, get in your face, and threaten you, pull out your can of disinfectant spray and make a verbal contract with them. Come too close and you get sprayed, stay back and you don't get sprayed. Simple enough?


Rusty - 7/31/2020 at 03:32 PM

quote:
quote:
If people can protest "safely"...Why can we not attend sporting events and concerts ..."Safely"?

Because protesting is protected by the Constitution, watching a ball game in person is not. Protesting is being done in public places, they aren't going through the same gate to enter and using the same bathroom facilities. There aren't concession exchanging hands. There isn't liability for major corporations. They aren't the same thing.


So, corona/covid germs cannot live in designated protest areas? Is this what I'm hearing?


porkchopbob - 7/31/2020 at 04:28 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
If people can protest "safely"...Why can we not attend sporting events and concerts ..."Safely"?

Because protesting is protected by the Constitution, watching a ball game in person is not. Protesting is being done in public places, they aren't going through the same gate to enter and using the same bathroom facilities. There aren't concession exchanging hands. There isn't liability for major corporations. They aren't the same thing.

So, corona/covid germs cannot live in designated protest areas? Is this what I'm hearing?

Uh, no, the virus obviously can be anywhere people are present. But just because people exercised their Constitutional rights to protest in spite of a pandemic (and have been met with force when out of hand) doesn't automatically open the door for live entertainment. It's a Venn diagram - similar in some ways, but still different.

[Edited on 7/31/2020 by porkchopbob]


BIGV - 8/1/2020 at 04:05 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
If people can protest "safely"...Why can we not attend sporting events and concerts ..."Safely"?

Because protesting is protected by the Constitution, watching a ball game in person is not. Protesting is being done in public places, they aren't going through the same gate to enter and using the same bathroom facilities. There aren't concession exchanging hands. There isn't liability for major corporations. They aren't the same thing.

So, corona/covid germs cannot live in designated protest areas? Is this what I'm hearing?

Uh, no, the virus obviously can be anywhere people are present. But just because people exercised their Constitutional rights to protest n spite of a ipandemic (and have been met with force when out of hand) doesn't automatically open the door for live entertainment. It's a Venn diagram - similar in some ways, but still different.


See this is the issue I have with your argument and will continue to raise my objection.

Either this Virus is a killer, or it is NOT. You can NOT have it both ways. You can NOT quote the Constitution for THIS but not for that...That is not how it works. Either you are for stopping this virus, all the time everywhere, or you are not. If it is a killer, there are no exceptions.

quote:
In spite of a pandemic


OMG


BIGV - 8/1/2020 at 12:15 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
If people can protest "safely"...Why can we not attend sporting events and concerts ..."Safely"?

Because protesting is protected by the Constitution, watching a ball game in person is not. Protesting is being done in public places, they aren't going through the same gate to enter and using the same bathroom facilities. There aren't concession exchanging hands. There isn't liability for major corporations. They aren't the same thing.

So, corona/covid germs cannot live in designated protest areas? Is this what I'm hearing?

Uh, no, the virus obviously can be anywhere people are present. But just because people exercised their Constitutional rights to protest in spite of a pandemic (and have been met with force when out of hand) doesn't automatically open the door for live entertainment. It's a Venn diagram - similar in some ways, but still different.


Constitutional Rights is now your defense for "Peaceful Protesting"?...... Do you remember the thread about the woman being arrested for taking her kids to the playground? Did she have a constitutional right to go to a playground?... I certainly did. What was your argument there?... It was stupid?..You argued common sense and safety, remember that? Here are some gems from you...

quote:
Exactly, clearly a stunt intended to bait. Is playing in parks while people suffer and die really the hill you want to die on, BIGV? Sure, there's a disparity in the degree to which some areas are affected, but that's merely a luxury of time.


Is marching in the streets while people suffer and die really the hill you want to die on?

quote:
The issue is places where people congregate - bars, churches, parks, stadiums, theaters, etc. California had a lock down after they got hit hard with COVID cases before they even knew it. Other areas less densely populated are trying to be preventative so they don't have to be as aggressive in their response. It's really not that much to ask that you stay away from a park. Most people aren't taking their kids out of the house if they don't have to, these rules are often made for the dumbest or least responsible (like anti-vacc'ers). Because if everyone ignored them and went to the beach or the park, then you have an issue. Also, it protects park employees.


The issue is places where people congregate ... It's really not that much to ask that you stay away from a protest

quote:
Nope, it's not partisan nor is it about interfering with rights, you've missed the entire point. It's about how some people think rules don't apply to them. If everyone went to the park (or beach, or theater) because they wanted to, you'd have an increased chance of spreading a deadly virus. For most people, that is super obvious, but some people do whatever they want to do regardless if it's safe or smart or because they are just a dick, so we have to write the rule down for them (like the Republican Gov or Idaho did in this case). That's where laws come from, even the basic ones like "don't kill". Seems obvious, right? But it's a law. Look it up.


Does the above apply to "peaceful protesting"?
quote:
If everyone went to the park (or beach, or theater) because they wanted to, you'd have an increased chance of spreading a deadly virus.


If EVERYONE WENT TO THE PARK?..or a protest
quote:
you'd have an increased chance of spreading a deadly virus


Does this "deadly Virus" steer clear of protests?


quote:
UPDATE: I made a quick run to the market the other day and a guy waiting outside the door says too me, "there's a line to get in because of the fake virus." Nice luxury to have, disbelieving reality completely, considering all of the death and pain this virus has caused. So yeah, some rules are aimed directly at the stupids.


Wow, look at that!...You have admitted that this virus is a KILLER, (TWICE) unless you are "protesting peacefully"

quote:
Wow you really want to go to the park, huh?


How is this different than "want" to march in the streets?..One WOMAN vs, THOUSANDS

quote:
The fact that we don't know for certain that you can't get it more than once only furthers the case for more strict social distancing. If anything, the death tolls and number of reported cases are probably lower than the truth since some people are asymptomatic, or got before people were really aware they were in danger of being exposed to COVID. Experts are using a lot of evidence and data, based on similar previous viruses. But if you want to insist that the world is flat until you walk around it yourself, be my guest.


I wonder what the "experts" think the result of protesting has been? Dr Fauci stated that "Gatherings of big groups of people is not a good idea"

quote:
If a public park is closed by order of the Governor, you don't have the right to go into the park.


You can close a park and arrest a woman, but tens of thousands can march....Were they stupid?

quote:
Nope, it's that I already covered this - it is in regards to being in close proximity to other people. You just don't understand the intended purpose of some of the restrictions, and that they don't all have to be relative to each other - some of it is dependent on resources, priority, and ability to enforce. Not everything must be comparable. I thought it was ridiculous that golf courses were open here, but I'm not going to go throw a tantrum because it contradicts my desire to go for a hike.


But interfere with your desire to gather in the streets... (But it's OK. most wore masks, right)

quote:
The social distancing has actually been effective in almost all regions.


Social distancing was practiced at "most of these "peaceful protests"?...I mean the experts are preaching this right?

quote:
And the reference to "rights" is because some rights are limited when safety is a concern


Why wasn't protesting limited?

Hypocrisy at its finest, straight from the horses mouth


porkchopbob - 8/1/2020 at 02:42 PM

V, take a pill. You are blinded by your BLM bias, it's clear. And you choose to ignore half of what I ever say and presume more (you are the KING of straw men) in order to repeat your dumb "BUT PROTESTS" rhetoric. You refuse to read evidence and articles that refute what you insist on believing. The way you mischaracterize facts makes it clear you're bending the situation to fit you massive bias. No one is going to try to change your mind, we get it.

quote:
Constitutional Rights is now your defense for "Peaceful Protesting"?...... Do you remember the thread about the woman being arrested for taking her kids to the playground? Did she have a constitutional right to go to a playground?...

Jeez, this again? Ok. She DID NOT have the right. Show me where you have a Constitutional right to a public swing set. That park was closed and she refused the order of a cop (I thought you supported the cops? Oh right, only when it's convenient for you). Protestors were massive groups that were still met with force when possible or necessary. Also, as you repeatedly said regarding enforcement across the nation - not all situations are the same. But now you want it to be the same - your repeated anti-protest tantrums are the biggest hypocrisy. You disagree with what they are protesting, but not the anti-mask protestors or armed white folks protesting in capitols. Way to cherry pick there, buddy!
quote:
Is marching in the streets while people suffer and die really the hill you want to die on?

Do you mean while black people suffer and die at the hands of racist cops? There can be TWO issues going on at the same time that unfortunately contradict each other. The world isn't relative. But also I've repeatedly said the protests don't help keeping COVID from spreading. Your whole dumb argument is based on a bizarre presumption that you repeat so often you think it's true. Stop doing that.
quote:
The issue is places where people congregate ... It's really not that much to ask that you stay away from a protest

Yeah, you can ask and hope people would. But also people can protest, especially if they are safe about it. Doesn't really matter when states have reopened. People are eating at restaurants and hanging out at the beach.
quote:
Wow, look at that!...You have admitted that this virus is a KILLER, (TWICE) unless you are "protesting peacefully"

That is not at all what was said, but it's telling how over-simplified your interpretation is. Protesting peacefully is still a risk people decided to take. But you can only handle one issue at a time.
quote:
Why wasn't protesting limited?

It was in many places. Is there a point here? Other than that you don't like BLM protests? This is an interesting window into your biased mind, but none of it really holds any water. It's just sarcasm based on ignorance.

You're frustrated and upset, it can be confusing. Not every issue is the same (as you once pointed out when it was convenient for you). But you can't just whine "but what about the protests" to everything people say - it's not an argument. You have no point here, sarcasm and rhetorical questions might make sense to you, but they are not an argument. You're just complaining that there are protests, without seeing them in any context and ignoring half the facts. You continue to sound like you don't know what you are talking about and repeatedly use straw men in order to continue your tantrums. It's tired, and most protests have been over for a while while restaurants and public places have been open, which you're fine (again, very hypocritical). Move on, find another boogey man, get a new axe to grind, get your facts straight. You just sound like an old man shaking his fist at a cloud.


porkchopbob - 8/1/2020 at 07:27 PM

quote:
Either this Virus is a killer, or it is NOT. You can NOT have it both ways. You can NOT quote the Constitution for THIS but not for that...That is not how it works. Either you are for stopping this virus, all the time everywhere, or you are not. If it is a killer, there are no exceptions.

Nope, not quite.

COVID-19 can kill and has done so. But the Constitution still exists. I may not agree with people exercising their rights, be it BLM protesters or your mom in Montana or the anti-maskers or the yokels at the OH capitol, but they all chose to do so at the risk of being arrested. Some were arrested, in some cases there were too many and attempting to arrest everyone would be impossible or make the situation even worse. Not every situation is the same.

Your problem here is you are confusing what is legal with opinion. You're asking for absolutism towards BLM protests, when rules and recommendations were wildly different from state to state, or even city to city, as were the responses. You're characterizing them all as the same. Meanwhile, you disagree with BLM, but you support your mom in Montana at the playground - do just white people get to protest?

Your other issue is that you insist am driving protestors to the front lines for some bizarre reason, even though I have repeated to you that I'd prefer people stayed home because of COVID-19. However, if people want to protest - anti-maskers, BLM, your mom in Montana - they can leave the house and walk the streets to voice their opinion and risk a fine or even arrest. Only a few states had mass lock downs, you could still leave the house and walk outside.

Your other problem is you have such tunnel vision that you don't object to anything else that can cause the spread of the virus. You only object to BLM protests because of your intense bias against them. You don't object to any other protests or types of gatherings, which are happening more and more casually across the nation. That is your hypocrisy.


BIGV - 8/2/2020 at 01:03 PM

quote:
You only object to BLM protests because of your intense bias against them. You don't object to any other protests or types of gatherings, which are happening more and more casually across the nation. That is your hypocrisy.


Haha!....You are the last one to call anyone else a hypocrite..."Intense bias"?......please. My argument has and will continue to be the incredible lack of judgement put forth by the individuals who choose to gather in large groups in public ares during a pandemic when the rest of us have had our abilities to live our lives limited by viewpoints from "Experts". No one is questioning their right to do so, just the insanity behind thinking it's OK for this group of individuals and not that one. Rationalize this all you want, 'till your hearts content, but do not ever expect me to listen to this dribble about how one groups rights to assemble supersede another..... "Peaceful Protests" that have on way too many occasions morphed into violence are defended under the context of constitutional rights, while being told that other gatherings place people in danger of contacting and spreading the "Killer virus", is the epitome of hypocrisy.


Jerry - 8/2/2020 at 03:08 PM

I can see both sides to the argument.
Why are people allowed to be in large groups to protest, but we can't go to church, have a family reunion, go to an outdoor concert, and many other things we actually want to do.
There is the right to protest. If you've been on these forums for a while you know how I am about the Constitution.
There is also the right of people to not have a crowd of possibly infections protesters in their area.

If there continue to be large protests, hold them in an outdoor setting away from a populated area. Say a 100 acre field outside of a populated area. There are enough closed Walmarts, KMarts, and now some abandoned malls with huge parking lots where the protests could be held, as long as it's kept to that location.
There would have to be the rules of social distancing and mask wearing in the permit.
Media coverage could be actually better with the fixed location, and amenities such as port-a-potties, water stations, medical emergency facilities, food donation sites, and other basic needs could be set up.
If a large protest is forced into a populated area, the participants could face charges of not following the permit guidelines.

We have had small protests in towns as small as Byron. Everyone wore a mask, kept a distance from each other, and spoke through a portable sound system. They marched through town in the middle of the street, away from the bystanders.


porkchopbob - 8/3/2020 at 01:06 PM

quote:
Haha!....You are the last one to call anyone else a hypocrite..."Intense bias"?......please. My argument has and will continue to be the incredible lack of judgement put forth by the individuals who choose to gather in large groups in public ares during a pandemic when the rest of us have had our abilities to live our lives limited by viewpoints from "Experts".

No, you've only complained about ONE group that you happen to disagree with. I have pointed out that they ALL present further spread risk. For some bizarre reason, you choose not to see that so you can keep whining about protests every chance you get. That's your hypocrisy, buddy. Just about everyone is concerned with mass gatherings, EXCEPT you.

quote:
but do not ever expect me to listen to this dribble about how one groups rights to assemble supersede another

Nope. The right to protest is protected, and often people do things other people don't like in protest. Whining that entertainment should resume just because there are protests as baseball fails to contain the virus proves DOCV still doens't understand how this virus works or how concerts and sports work. You just want to complain - BLM protests, masks, closed schools - typical self-contradictory complaining without any actual solutions.


BIGV - 8/3/2020 at 01:51 PM

quote:
quote:
Haha!....You are the last one to call anyone else a hypocrite..."Intense bias"?......please. My argument has and will continue to be the incredible lack of judgement put forth by the individuals who choose to gather in large groups in public ares during a pandemic when the rest of us have had our abilities to live our lives limited by viewpoints from "Experts".

No, you've only complained about ONE group that you happen to disagree with. I have pointed out that they ALL present further spread risk. For some bizarre reason, you choose not to see that so you can keep whining about protests every chance you get. That's your hypocrisy, buddy. Just about everyone is concerned with mass gatherings, EXCEPT you.

quote:
but do not ever expect me to listen to this dribble about how one groups rights to assemble supersede another

Nope. The right to protest is protected, and often people do things other people don't like in protest. Whining that entertainment should resume just because there are protests as baseball fails to contain the virus proves DOCV still doens't understand how this virus works or how concerts and sports work. You just want to complain - BLM protests, masks, closed schools - typical self-contradictory complaining without any actual solutions.


For the last time, I have no issue with the Constitutionally protected right to protest, None. My concern is for all of the other activities that are being limited that involve the same basic behaviors, gathering in groups, for whatever reason. The same municipality that decided it was a good idea to BAN going to a park and in the same breath backed that decision with the power of arrest FOR THE HEALTH OF THE PUBLIC....allows THOUSANDS to congregate in the streets under the pretense of a peaceful protest that on way too many occasions has turned into a violent media covered event.

If you can not see the hypocrisy there.....


porkchopbob - 8/3/2020 at 02:34 PM

quote:
For the last time, I have no issue with the Constitutionally protected right to protest, None. My concern is for all of the other activities that are being limited that involve the same basic behaviors, gathering in groups, for whatever reason. The same municipality that decided it was a good idea to BAN going to a park and in the same breath backed that decision with the power of arrest FOR THE HEALTH OF THE PUBLIC....allows THOUSANDS to congregate in the streets under the pretense of a peaceful protest that on way too many occasions has turned into a violent media covered event.

Oh, so now it's not the protestors, it's the municipalities you take issue with? Jeez, V, which is it? These aren't even the same municipalities involved. Initial responses were different everywhere, just as you championed. And protests weren't organized by Live Nation, they were done by force of will people pissed off that cops murdered some people. If you have no problem with the right to protest, then you should understand that they aren't the same as a baseball game, or a concert, or refusing a police officer's order. That you are still complaining about this when states have re-opened (there's live music and college baseball down the street from me) and cases continue to rise speaks volumes.





BIGV - 8/3/2020 at 02:57 PM

quote:
quote:
For the last time, I have no issue with the Constitutionally protected right to protest, None. My concern is for all of the other activities that are being limited that involve the same basic behaviors, gathering in groups, for whatever reason. The same municipality that decided it was a good idea to BAN going to a park and in the same breath backed that decision with the power of arrest FOR THE HEALTH OF THE PUBLIC....allows THOUSANDS to congregate in the streets under the pretense of a peaceful protest that on way too many occasions has turned into a violent media covered event.

Oh, so now it's not the protestors, it's the municipalities you take issue with? Jeez, V, which is it? These aren't even the same municipalities involved. Initial responses were different everywhere, just as you championed. And protests weren't organized by Live Nation, they were done by force of will people pissed off that cops murdered some people. If you have no problem with the right to protest, then you should understand that they aren't the same as a baseball game, or a concert, or refusing a police officer's order. That you are still complaining about this when states have re-opened (there's live music and college baseball down the street from me) and cases continue to rise speaks volumes.


Constitutional rights rock. Common sense is another issue. The Corona virus is HIGHLY contagious, can we agree on that?

(1) Lots and lots of people at an outdoor protest in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks...

(2) Lots and lots of people at a concert in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks....

Which event does the virus prefer?


stormyrider - 8/3/2020 at 02:59 PM

last time I checked, the Constitution doesn't guarantee the right to go to a ball game, or concert
or not wear a mask for that matter.

It does guarantee the right for peaceful protests


porkchopbob - 8/3/2020 at 04:02 PM

quote:
Constitutional rights rock. Common sense is another issue.

So use yours if you have it, and try to understand that a concert is not the same as a protest. Protesting in public spaces is not the same as a limited liability corporation organizing a show at a venue that is subject to local health ordinances and insurance. No one is saying protestors didn't take a big risk cause some spread, just as MLB and the NBA have. But they don't have a Constitutional right to put fans in the stands.

There is live music at some restaurants and some socially distant concerts are being planned at drive-ins across the country. There are attempts to do these activities that everyone wants to do in a safe way. Different industries are affected in different ways, the virus isn't fair. You are welcome to go protest that, just wear a mask, please.

[Edited on 8/3/2020 by porkchopbob]


2112 - 8/3/2020 at 05:01 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
For the last time, I have no issue with the Constitutionally protected right to protest, None. My concern is for all of the other activities that are being limited that involve the same basic behaviors, gathering in groups, for whatever reason. The same municipality that decided it was a good idea to BAN going to a park and in the same breath backed that decision with the power of arrest FOR THE HEALTH OF THE PUBLIC....allows THOUSANDS to congregate in the streets under the pretense of a peaceful protest that on way too many occasions has turned into a violent media covered event.

Oh, so now it's not the protestors, it's the municipalities you take issue with? Jeez, V, which is it? These aren't even the same municipalities involved. Initial responses were different everywhere, just as you championed. And protests weren't organized by Live Nation, they were done by force of will people pissed off that cops murdered some people. If you have no problem with the right to protest, then you should understand that they aren't the same as a baseball game, or a concert, or refusing a police officer's order. That you are still complaining about this when states have re-opened (there's live music and college baseball down the street from me) and cases continue to rise speaks volumes.


Constitutional rights rock. Common sense is another issue. The Corona virus is HIGHLY contagious, can we agree on that?

(1) Lots and lots of people at an outdoor protest in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks...

(2) Lots and lots of people at a concert in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks....

Which event does the virus prefer?



I'm still not convinced that at least some of the surge is not due to the protests. That said, a concert or sporting event (or an indoor presidential rally) puts you inside sitting next to the same people for 3+ hours breathing whatever they are exhaling. Nobody is moving around. You are next to whoever you're next to. Same situation with a church. At an outdoor protest, at least people are moving around and in most cases have some social distance between them. Chances are you're not next to the same person for 3 hours. Do I consider the protests risky? Yes. As risky as a sporting event or concert? No


BIGV - 8/3/2020 at 07:14 PM

quote:
quote:
Constitutional rights rock. Common sense is another issue.


quote:
So use yours if you have it, and try to understand that a concert is not the same as a protest.


Dude

quote:
Protesting in public spaces is not the same as a limited liability corporation organizing a show at a venue that is subject to local health ordinances and insurance. No one is saying protestors didn't take a big risk cause some spread, just as MLB and the NBA have. But they don't have a Constitutional right to put fans in the stands.


Thanks Professor and I will ask this very simple question one more time which I predict you will not choose to answer:

(1) Lots and lots of people at an outdoor protest in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks...

(2) Lots and lots of people at a concert in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks....

Which event does the virus prefer?


quote:
just wear a mask, please.


There it is, the left's cure all for the pandemic and if you don't wear one, you are the major reason this virus is "lingering"


porkchopbob - 8/3/2020 at 07:37 PM

quote:
quote:
just wear a mask, please.

There it is, the left's cure all for the pandemic and if you don't wear one, you are the major reason this virus is "lingering"

Super nope. Medicine and science are not partisan, and masks have never been referred to as a cure. But they help, it's a road to getting past this, otherwise every nurse and doctor would have contracted COVID-19 moths ago. Stop making up your own narratives based on your own prejudices. You can't whine about COVID-19 spread AND disregard the simple recommendations - face coverings to combat airborne viruses is not some bold new theory.

quote:
I will ask this very simple question one more time which I predict you will not choose to answer:

Geez dude I did answer your question. But a reminder, this is not a trial. If you have a point to make, summon your mystical powers of snark quotes and voice it.


pops42 - 8/3/2020 at 07:49 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Constitutional rights rock. Common sense is another issue.


quote:
So use yours if you have it, and try to understand that a concert is not the same as a protest.


Dude

quote:
Protesting in public spaces is not the same as a limited liability corporation organizing a show at a venue that is subject to local health ordinances and insurance. No one is saying protestors didn't take a big risk cause some spread, just as MLB and the NBA have. But they don't have a Constitutional right to put fans in the stands.


Thanks Professor and I will ask this very simple question one more time which I predict you will not choose to answer:

(1) Lots and lots of people at an outdoor protest in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks...

(2) Lots and lots of people at a concert in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks....

Which event does the virus prefer?


quote:
just wear a mask, please.


There it is, the left's cure all for the pandemic and if you don't wear one, you are the major reason this virus is "lingering"
If we had 95 percent compliance with masks, we would not be leading the world in infection and death. Like Herman Cain, you are part of the problem.


BIGV - 8/3/2020 at 07:55 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Constitutional rights rock. Common sense is another issue.


quote:
So use yours if you have it, and try to understand that a concert is not the same as a protest.


Dude

quote:
Protesting in public spaces is not the same as a limited liability corporation organizing a show at a venue that is subject to local health ordinances and insurance. No one is saying protestors didn't take a big risk cause some spread, just as MLB and the NBA have. But they don't have a Constitutional right to put fans in the stands.


Thanks Professor and I will ask this very simple question one more time which I predict you will not choose to answer:

(1) Lots and lots of people at an outdoor protest in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks...

(2) Lots and lots of people at a concert in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks....

Which event does the virus prefer?


quote:
just wear a mask, please.


There it is, the left's cure all for the pandemic and if you don't wear one, you are the major reason this virus is "lingering"
If we had 95 percent compliance with masks, we would not be leading the world in infection and death. Like Herman Cain, you are part of the problem.


Pretty tough question...huh?


MartinD28 - 8/3/2020 at 09:56 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Constitutional rights rock. Common sense is another issue.


quote:
So use yours if you have it, and try to understand that a concert is not the same as a protest.


Dude

quote:
Protesting in public spaces is not the same as a limited liability corporation organizing a show at a venue that is subject to local health ordinances and insurance. No one is saying protestors didn't take a big risk cause some spread, just as MLB and the NBA have. But they don't have a Constitutional right to put fans in the stands.


Thanks Professor and I will ask this very simple question one more time which I predict you will not choose to answer:

(1) Lots and lots of people at an outdoor protest in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks...

(2) Lots and lots of people at a concert in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks....

Which event does the virus prefer?


quote:
just wear a mask, please.


There it is, the left's cure all for the pandemic and if you don't wear one, you are the major reason this virus is "lingering"
If we had 95 percent compliance with masks, we would not be leading the world in infection and death. Like Herman Cain, you are part of the problem.


And the scientists reinforce that daily, but those that know more than the scientists want to do end runs around that and talk about the great testing we've had. You can also throw the anti maskers in the same barrel.


BIGV - 8/3/2020 at 10:03 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Constitutional rights rock. Common sense is another issue.


quote:
So use yours if you have it, and try to understand that a concert is not the same as a protest.


Dude

quote:
Protesting in public spaces is not the same as a limited liability corporation organizing a show at a venue that is subject to local health ordinances and insurance. No one is saying protestors didn't take a big risk cause some spread, just as MLB and the NBA have. But they don't have a Constitutional right to put fans in the stands.


Thanks Professor and I will ask this very simple question one more time which I predict you will not choose to answer:

(1) Lots and lots of people at an outdoor protest in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks...

(2) Lots and lots of people at a concert in close proximity and let say for the sake of discussion 70% are wearing masks....

Which event does the virus prefer?


quote:
just wear a mask, please.


There it is, the left's cure all for the pandemic and if you don't wear one, you are the major reason this virus is "lingering"
If we had 95 percent compliance with masks, we would not be leading the world in infection and death. Like Herman Cain, you are part of the problem.


And the scientists reinforce that daily, but those that know more than the scientists want to do end runs around that and talk about the great testing we've had. You can also throw the anti maskers in the same barrel.


And Dr. Fauci just suggested Eye goggles could be helpful, now why would he make that public?..."Could be"...Mmmmm is this the next step science might say is needed?...Would you do it?...What might be around the corner?...Ear muffs?


porkchopbob - 8/3/2020 at 10:18 PM

quote:
And Dr. Fauci just suggested Eye goggles could be helpful, now why would he make that public?..."Could be"...Mmmmm is this the next step science might say is needed?...Would you do it?...What might be around the corner?...Ear muffs?

Why? He was actually asked, he didn't offer this up (you'd like him, he answers questions). He said "you know, it might", since it's another layer of protection to possible exposure. Something medical health professionals have been using when they can.

Keep sensationalizing and mocking every little sound bite! Nice how you respect Herman Cain's (MS Comp Sci, Purdue) medical recommendations over Dr Fauci's (MD, Cornell). Can't argue with that logic!


BIGV - 8/3/2020 at 10:23 PM

quote:
quote:
And Dr. Fauci just suggested Eye goggles could be helpful, now why would he make that public?..."Could be"...Mmmmm is this the next step science might say is needed?...Would you do it?...What might be around the corner?...Ear muffs?

Why? He was actually asked, he didn't offer this up (you'd like him, he answers questions). He said "you know, it might"


Actually his quote included the word "should"..

quote:
"If you have goggles or an eye shield, you should use it”


How long before we see people wearing them and others chastising those who don't?


porkchopbob - 8/3/2020 at 10:36 PM

quote:
Actually his quote included the word "should"..
quote:
"If you have goggles or an eye shield, you should use it”


Yes, IF you have it. He is not telling you to get one IF you DON'T have one. Not sure what your issue is here.
quote:
"Theoretically you should protect all of the mucosal surfaces, so if you have goggles or an eye shield, you should use it.

"It’s not universally recommended, but if you really want to be complete, you should probably use it if you can," he continued.

But one reason that this hasn’t been pushed for the general public yet, he suggested, is because, “it’s so easy for people to just make a cloth mask”

IF you're easily triggered and don't understand how airborne viruses work, you might take issue with this. Feel free to get a 2nd opinion from Herman Cain.


MartinD28 - 8/3/2020 at 11:04 PM

quote:
quote:
And Dr. Fauci just suggested Eye goggles could be helpful, now why would he make that public?..."Could be"...Mmmmm is this the next step science might say is needed?...Would you do it?...What might be around the corner?...Ear muffs?

Why? He was actually asked, he didn't offer this up (you'd like him, he answers questions). He said "you know, it might", since it's another layer of protection to possible exposure. Something medical health professionals have been using when they can.

Keep sensationalizing and mocking every little sound bite! Nice how you respect Herman Cain's (MS Comp Sci, Purdue) medical recommendations over Dr Fauci's (MD, Cornell). Can't argue with that logic!


Unfortunately having academic degrees and even translating that to a successful professional career take a backseat to practicality and common sense. Those concepts don't necessairly go hand in hand. I thought Cain was a likeable individual, but in the end, the decisons he made were not good to him. This is a sad but avoidable situation.


BIGV - 8/4/2020 at 03:39 AM

quote:
Unfortunately having academic degrees and even translating that to a successful professional career take a backseat to practicality and common sense.


Example: Alexandria Ocasio Cortez


BIGV - 8/4/2020 at 03:46 AM

quote:
IF you're easily triggered and don't understand how airborne viruses work, you might take issue with this. Feel free to get a 2nd opinion from Herman Cain.


Better idea, lets ask the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS who've lived through it? Or, lets ask the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS who've tested positive, but have ZERO symptoms? Let's talk about the Nationwide Death toll that now sits at 0.0005%

Your pick.

And please, try to show some growth and expand your vocabulary a bit beyond these leftist, Laughable, P.C. terms like "Triggered"...

Bet you can't


porkchopbob - 8/4/2020 at 01:05 PM

quote:
quote:
Unfortunately having academic degrees and even translating that to a successful professional career take a backseat to practicality and common sense.

Example: Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

Oh geez, get some new material. Though it was just a matter of time before you ran out of your usual circular whining and wedged her into this thread. First you defend Herman Cain because he has a degree and now you disregard AOC in spite of her degree? Can you post once without hypocrisy? Bet you can't.

quote:
Better idea, lets ask the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS who've lived through it? Or, lets ask the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS who've tested positive, but have ZERO symptoms? Let's talk about the Nationwide Death toll that now sits at 0.0005%

Your pick.

And please, try to show some growth and expand your vocabulary a bit beyond these leftist, Laughable, P.C. terms like "Triggered"...

Bet you can't

Now you're triggered by the word "trigger". Then stop taking issue with by every clip the FOX News tells you to be upset about. You're the only blindly partisan warrior here.

The US death toll is 158K people. That's a lot of PEOPLE who suffered and died. Some survivors still feel the after effects. You can make that a percentage if it dehumanizes it for you, but the fact is other countries kept their mortality rates lower and their economy stronger during all of this thanks to a centralized plan of action. The US has been rudderless through this, with the exception of Fauci and Birx, and all you can do is mock what he says with your own baseless conjecture. So continue to think you know better than a first year med student, complain without offering alternative solutions except "I want to go to concerts". You continue to be part of he problem.


MartinD28 - 8/4/2020 at 01:27 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Unfortunately having academic degrees and even translating that to a successful professional career take a backseat to practicality and common sense.

Example: Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

Oh geez, get some new material. Though it was just a matter of time before you ran out of your usual circular whining and wedged her into this thread. First you defend Herman Cain because he has a degree and now you disregard AOC in spite of her degree? Can you post once without hypocrisy? Bet you can't.

quote:
Better idea, lets ask the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS who've lived through it? Or, lets ask the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS who've tested positive, but have ZERO symptoms? Let's talk about the Nationwide Death toll that now sits at 0.0005%

Your pick.

And please, try to show some growth and expand your vocabulary a bit beyond these leftist, Laughable, P.C. terms like "Triggered"...

Bet you can't

Now you're triggered by the word "trigger". Then stop taking issue with by every clip the FOX News tells you to be upset about. You're the only blindly partisan warrior here.

The US death toll is 158K people. That's a lot of PEOPLE who suffered and died. Some survivors still feel the after effects. You can make that a percentage if it dehumanizes it for you, but the fact is other countries kept their mortality rates lower and their economy stronger during all of this thanks to a centralized plan of action. The US has been rudderless through this, with the exception of Fauci and Birx, and all you can do is mock what he says with your own baseless conjecture. So continue to think you know better than a first year med student, complain without offering alternative solutions except "I want to go to concerts". You continue to be part of he problem.


X2

Another point - AOC wasn't foolish enought to attend a Trump Rally like others did who didn't wear masks. She also lives to experience another day of what life offers.


porkchopbob - 8/4/2020 at 01:42 PM

quote:
Another point - AOC wasn't foolish enought to attend a Trump Rally like others did who didn't wear masks. She also lives to experience another day of what life offers.

She also respectfully tore Ted Yoho a new one for publicly calling her a name in the Capitol and refusing to apologize. But people who can't handle her opposing opinion choose to discredit her intelligence instead of engaging her ideas.


cyclone88 - 8/4/2020 at 02:01 PM

To get back to the topic & away from semantics, where exactly is the US on re-opening?

Trump has now turned on Birx for saying that the virus is widespread & in rural areas - calling her "pathetic" in a tweet. He says we're doing better than other countries even though those other countries plateaued before re-opening. The US has never plateaued.

So, is the plan for municipalities to decide on their own w/o CDC official numbers that hospitals are now reporting to Trump? Do governors even talk to Trump/Pence anymore? Small businesses have closed never to re-open after their government assistance expired, mostly affecting women & minority business owners. Teachers are refusing to return to buildings but are willing to teach online. MLB can't get in games w/o players getting Covid19. Has Trump's ignoring the pandemic caused us to just patch together whatever our municipalities determine w/no unifying plan?


MartinD28 - 8/4/2020 at 02:15 PM

quote:
quote:
Another point - AOC wasn't foolish enought to attend a Trump Rally like others did who didn't wear masks. She also lives to experience another day of what life offers.

She also respectfully tore Ted Yoho a new one for publicly calling her a name in the Capitol and refusing to apologize. But people who can't handle her opposing opinion choose to discredit her intelligence instead of engaging her ideas.


And isn't "opposing opinion" the mantra of what we hear complained about daily on this site?


MartinD28 - 8/4/2020 at 02:19 PM

quote:
Has Trump's ignoring the pandemic caused us to just patch together whatever our municipalities determine w/no unifying plan?


There is no other choice. This unfortuantely is the default position. Without a top down approach, this is what happens. Look at the the difference in the European approach vs the Trump approach. Then look at the results.


porkchopbob - 8/4/2020 at 02:41 PM

quote:
To get back to the topic & away from semantics, where exactly is the US on re-opening?

Well said, cyclone. The whole thing has been bungled here. Letting everyone choose their own adventure, from county-to-county, ignores how the virus and people travel. There needed to be a centralized plan rather than the contradictory feed we got from a President who didn't think it was his responsibility. Obviously a President isn't going to know the science, but there needed to be a unified message. Other than CA, the US never really locked down, and the attempts to alleviate the financial burden have been a joke, leaving small businesses out to dry. It's all half measures. All we can do is wear masks, be safe, and hope the numbers go down.

The financial fallout is going to be huge and I don't think we've felt it yet since some businesses have been able to linger. Urban commercial areas that were blighted just 10 years ago are back to empty store fronts. Banks that quickly moved in to closed mom & pop shops when the rent increased a decade ago have shuttered their doors in huge numbers. If banks can't pay the rent, who can? There's going to have to be some major financial assistance to recovery.


porkchopbob - 8/4/2020 at 02:43 PM

quote:
quote:
Has Trump's ignoring the pandemic caused us to just patch together whatever our municipalities determine w/no unifying plan?

There is no other choice. This unfortuantely is the default position. Without a top down approach, this is what happens. Look at the the difference in the European approach vs the Trump approach. Then look at the results.

The weakest of the herd will drag us down. So long as there is a state that can't get its house in order, there will be flare ups.


BIGV - 8/4/2020 at 03:02 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Unfortunately having academic degrees and even translating that to a successful professional career take a backseat to practicality and common sense.

Example: Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

Oh geez, get some new material. Though it was just a matter of time before you ran out of your usual circular whining and wedged her into this thread. First you defend Herman Cain because he has a degree and now you disregard AOC in spite of her degree? Can you post once without hypocrisy? Bet you can't.



Read the quote again pertaining to degrees and common sense. You feel that has everything to do with Dr.Cain's actions involving his having attended Trump's rally. Fair enough, I disagree, but fair enough. I feel that quote is relevant to AOC' s day to day life. No hypocrisy at all, just a different application of the same quote. Once again placing on full display your inability to accept that there are opinions out there that differ from yours.


porkchopbob - 8/4/2020 at 03:26 PM

quote:
Read the quote again pertaining to degrees and common sense. You feel that has everything to do with Dr.Cain's actions involving his having attended Trump's rally. Fair enough, I disagree, but fair enough. I feel that quote is relevant to AOC' s day to day life. No hypocrisy at all, just a different application of the same quote. Once again placing on full display your inability to accept that there are opinions out there that differ from yours.

First, a Master's of Science (MS) in Computer Science doesn't make Herman Cain a Doctor. It's a Master's degree. He was awarded an honorary Doctorate in Comp Sci from Purdue, which also does not make him a "Dr".

I don't understand what you think I "feel" about Herman Cain's "actions involving his having attended" - what does that even mean? I don't think his degrees have anything to do with his decision to attend the rally without a mask, you brought that up.

I can accept your opinions just fine, but whatever you think of AOC's "daily life" is not an opinion. It's a petty cheap shot that is irrelevant here and contradicts your stated views on higher ed. Keep saying everyone with whom you disagree is "unable" to accept other opinions rather than defending your opinion if it's easier for you.

[Edited on 8/4/2020 by porkchopbob]


Bhawk - 8/4/2020 at 03:33 PM

The “you can’t handle another opinion” thing is just pure projection at this point.


cyclone88 - 8/4/2020 at 03:56 PM

quote:
The financial fallout is going to be huge and I don't think we've felt it yet since some businesses have been able to linger. Urban commercial areas that were blighted just 10 years ago are back to empty store fronts. Banks that quickly moved in to closed mom & pop shops when the rent increased a decade ago have shuttered their doors in huge numbers. If banks can't pay the rent, who can? There's going to have to be some major financial assistance to recovery.

Absolutely. This is one thing that Trump foresees - real estate worldwide is going to tank big time & the lenders, paper holders, and investment banks are going to take massive hits. It's one thing when the 3 largest tenants in NYC pay the penalty & have early terminations of their leases because they've discovered it's more efficient & cost effective to have employees working remotely. That's just one side - contraction in office space.

Landlords & homeowners are used to thinking it's a seller's market. Not so fast. If people aren't working, they're not going to afford rent/mortgages. Already, there are trends from cities to the ex-urbs for those who still have jobs but work remotely.

Retail was already dying & now, w/the closing of the small businesses that were tenants of shopping centers, stand-alones, and even major malls are officially shuttering them. Think of the small real estate investors as well as the biggest mall owners who suddenly have empty property w/no prospects. How do you re-use/adapt a mall at such a high rate that it's going to cover the mortgage?

When Trump says "back to work," he doesn't mean it. He means "back in the office" & shove the kids in school so the parents can occupy office space. Get them traveling to stay in hotels.


BIGV - 8/4/2020 at 04:03 PM

quote:
I can accept your opinions just fine, but whatever you think of AOC's "daily life" is not an opinion.


Evidently, you can not. Please give me your definition of just exactly what an opinion is.

Here is the word opinion as defined by Websters: "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."

Now once again for clarification, here was the original statement and my retort:

"Unfortunately having academic degrees and even translating that to a successful professional career take a backseat to practicality and common sense
Example: Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

What exactly is is your issue with this? You believe this applies to Mr. Cain and I feel it is more than appropriate in describing the Congresswoman.


porkchopbob - 8/4/2020 at 04:12 PM

quote:
Absolutely. This is one thing that Trump foresees - real estate worldwide is going to tank big time & the lenders, paper holders, and investment banks are going to take massive hits. It's one thing when the 3 largest tenants in NYC pay the penalty & have early terminations of their leases because they've discovered it's more efficient & cost effective to have employees working remotely. That's just one side - contraction in office space.

Landlords & homeowners are used to thinking it's a seller's market. Not so fast. If people aren't working, they're not going to afford rent/mortgages. Already, there are trends from cities to the ex-urbs for those who still have jobs but work remotely.

Retail was already dying & now, w/the closing of the small businesses that were tenants of shopping centers, stand-alones, and even major malls are officially shuttering them. Think of the small real estate investors as well as the biggest mall owners who suddenly have empty property w/no prospects. How do you re-use/adapt a mall at such a high rate that it's going to cover the mortgage?

When Trump says "back to work," he doesn't mean it. He means "back in the office" & shove the kids in school so the parents can occupy office space. Get them traveling to stay in hotels.

Remember 2008 when the real estate market in the US collapsed? New towers in Miami and NYC remained vacant. But they still sold, foreign investors scooped up US real estate for a fraction of the price and it created a black hole in available real estate to urban residents. Rents went up and people who couldn't afford it moved out. Shops closed and chains moved in. But now chains are collapsing.

Malls will be interesting, they take up an insane amount of acreage. Lots of people still like to shop in person and browse the mall, but I remember empty mall storefronts in the late 80s and it didn't end well. Same thing with universities, will students go back? Will employees work from home or their jobs get eliminated completely? New York University has been buying up Greenwich Village for the past 2 decades, without students they are just another broke developer. A friend of mine who trades cattle said gold is going up and it's not good. Investors want something tangible.


BIGV - 8/4/2020 at 04:14 PM

quote:
Now you're triggered by the word "trigger"


Hilarious. I had to defer to an "Urban dictionary" to find a "definition" of this P.C. term!..Hahaha. Where it is defined as a : "when someone gets offended or gets their feelings hurt, often used in memes to describe feminist, or people with strong victimization"

Offended?...So, once again, having an opinion (yet another term you seem to have difficulty with) that differs from yours and expressing it automatically defaults to being "offended"?

How old are you young man?


porkchopbob - 8/4/2020 at 04:34 PM

quote:
quote:
I can accept your opinions just fine, but whatever you think of AOC's "daily life" is not an opinion.

Evidently, you can not. Please give me your definition of just exactly what an opinion is.

Here is the word opinion as defined by Websters: "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."

Now once again for clarification, here was the original statement and my retort:

"Unfortunately having academic degrees and even translating that to a successful professional career take a backseat to practicality and common sense
Example: Alexandria Ocasio Cortez

What exactly is is your issue with this? You believe this applies to Mr. Cain and I feel it is more than appropriate in describing the Congresswoman.

Oh goody, semantics!

First, it's not my quote so I never stated to whom it applies. You cited Cain's MS degree to legitimize his intelligence:
quote:
he also graduated with a Master's degree in computer science from Purdue University more than likely making him just a bit smarter than you


However, you contradicted this then when you agreed that "academic degrees...take a backseat...to common sense", citing your opinion of AOC.

So which is your opinion? I will gladly accept either opinion, or both since opinions don't have to be "based on fact or knowledge". But don't kick dirt because they contradict each other. Everyone can handle your opinion, you just can't handle anyone pointing the serpentine logic that got you there.


cyclone88 - 8/4/2020 at 04:41 PM

quote:
Remember 2008 when the real estate market in the US collapsed? New towers in Miami and NYC remained vacant. But they still sold, foreign investors scooped up US real estate for a fraction of the price and it created a black hole in available real estate to urban residents. Rents went up and people who couldn't afford it moved out. Shops closed and chains moved in. But now chains are collapsing.

Malls will be interesting, they take up an insane amount of acreage. Lots of people still like to shop in person and browse the mall, but I remember empty mall storefronts in the late 80s and it didn't end well. Same thing with universities, will students go back? Will employees work from home or their jobs get eliminated completely? New York University has been buying up Greenwich Village for the past 2 decades, without students they are just another broke developer. A friend of mine who trades cattle said gold is going up and it's not good. Investors want something tangible.

I go all the way back to the 1987 S&L debacle when the government ended up w/empty real estate from government-backed loans. It took years to dig out of that one. Some places - like suburban Las Vegas - never recovered.

This problem is unique because it's global. Granted, there are oligarchs & Bezos of the world, but we don't have the big syndicates from the UK, Germany, Singapore that can buy US properties for pennies. They've got their own real estate to deal with. And really, who wants something that is never coming back? Residential will eventually right itself because people have to live somewhere, but all the others are a crapshoot. Isn't it Buffett that has had his $$$ in cash for the past few years? He got burned w/outlet malls a while back.


porkchopbob - 8/4/2020 at 04:50 PM

quote:
How old are you young man?

MULEMAN has returned!

Besides, you're the one using "OMG" regularly

But seriously, dude, this is some petty nonsense. It's a discussion you're taking way too seriously. I never once said you can't have your own opinion nor am I offended, I simply disagree with your opinion and stated why. It's not personal. I've got a lot of friends from HTN alone with whom I disagree politically, it's always about the exchange of ideas and information.


nebish - 8/5/2020 at 12:09 AM

I noticed a new graphic on Ohio's coronavirus website today, they are showing hospital capacity.

As has been the case the last 4 weeks, we are averaging anywhere from 1000-1100 patients in Ohio hospitals on any given day. These patients account for 4% of our total bed capacity. Non-covid patients make up 64-70% of our capacity depending on the day. Today we have 28% bed capacity remaining for all patients who need admitted.

Covid patients only make up 7-8% of our ICU bed capacity. Today they reported 340 covid patients in ICU and 2,569 non-covid ICU patients. We have nearly 32% of our ICU beds available.

Seems like Ohio has reached a plateau. Not sure if it will hold, but after days upon days of new highs for 7-day, 14-day and 21-day rolling averages, they have dipped slightly and have gone down 5 days in a row.

And the weekly numbers in my county had been higher Sunday-Monday for 4 straight weeks, except for last week they were down 20%. Numbers are still high, but a sliver of good news, I'll take it.


porkchopbob - 8/5/2020 at 12:46 PM

That's certainly promising, nebish. Any daylight feels good these days. Florida had its first decreases in cases, which is a promising trend. We drove through Miami last week and everyone outside was wearing masks.


cyclone88 - 8/5/2020 at 12:55 PM

quote:
I noticed a new graphic on Ohio's coronavirus website today, they are showing hospital capacity... Numbers are still high, but a sliver of good news, I'll take it.


Great. Maybe people are beginning to take things more seriously. Did you happen to notice if the graphic was from the Johns Hopkins data that Fauci has been using since Day 1 or if it was something from Trump's new HHS database?


nebish - 8/6/2020 at 01:42 AM

It looks to me it is just something the state of Ohio has added to their existing data charts.



You take the cursor over the shaded areas to get the percentages. Edit, the image cut off the labels on the graphs. The first one is total impatient bed capacity, then ICU bed capacity and finally ventilator capacity.

Another day of Ohio ticking ever so slightly lower on all the 7, 14 and 21 day averages. They are modest decreases, but atleast it is a 6 day trend now.

[Edited on 8/6/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 8/6/2020 at 06:15 PM

One new case in Ohio getting a lot of attention - our Governor!


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