Thread: Opening Up America Again

nebish - 4/17/2020 at 12:06 AM

Plan unveiled, widely available online news outlets.

So what do we think?

I think it is pretty good.

Must overcome hurdle of 14 days declining trajectory of flu-like symptoms and coronavirus cases where hospitals are able to treat their patients without crisis care (does this mean not overwhelmed with extra capacity?), with testing and screening procedures before entering phase 1. Phase 1 has many of the things that most states are currently adhering to already. If there is no "rebound" and cases are still declining for 14 days, enter phase 2. No rebound with 14 days of declining cases, enter phase 3.

It sounds pretty responsible, I liked when Birx and Fauci explained it rather than Trump.

Some states have the talent and resources to develop their own guidelines, perhaps improving upon these. Some states may want to follow them as is. Governors and health professional in each state get to determine when and how they do this - exactly as it should be.

Some vague areas in the phase guidance, but this seems like a good way forward. The shortest timeframe out is 42 days if a state is ready to enter phase 1 today. If the hurdles haven't been met yet then is will be at least a 56 day process.

The most glaring issue is the fact that testing efficiency and availability is still pretty awful, that plays a key role in this.


nebish - 4/17/2020 at 12:09 AM

Here is one link with plan in pdf format.

https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/f70115f 7-a330-49d8-b0a9-ff6b3ce56ae1/note/8cb9b5df-b98d-4382-a7e8-9ca2fa6c9038.#pa ge=1


BrerRabbit - 4/17/2020 at 12:11 AM

Looks good to me. Thx for post


OriginalGoober - 4/17/2020 at 12:11 AM

I support this, and I also support Gov Cumo if he says that the timeline would compromise the safety of New Yorkers. I leave it to Cumo and his advisors if they say its too soon than its too soon. I dont care what Trump thinks should be done if he is outside of a hot zone. Leave it too the governors to manage their local hot zones.


nebish - 4/17/2020 at 12:18 AM

Dr Facui's comments on the plan:

My apologizes for the all caps, it is a C-Span copy and paste.

-edit - actually that looked awful and unreadable, let me see if I can find a normal version

-edit- I can't find a noncap version, even tried to change the format in word, but couldn't. Here is the link, Fauci starts talking at about the 35 minute mark where he describes this plan as a "natural evolution".

https://www.c-span.org/video/?471257-1/trump-administration-issues-guidelin es-reopen-economy&live=

[Edited on 4/17/2020 by nebish]


BIGV - 4/17/2020 at 12:24 AM

quote:
Some states have the talent and resources to develop their own guidelines, perhaps improving upon these. Some states may want to follow them as is. Governors and health professional in each state get to determine when and how they do this - exactly as it should be.


So, NO State to State travel at first?


nebish - 4/17/2020 at 12:32 AM

quote:
quote:
Some states have the talent and resources to develop their own guidelines, perhaps improving upon these. Some states may want to follow them as is. Governors and health professional in each state get to determine when and how they do this - exactly as it should be.


So, NO State to State travel at first?


State to state travel is not currently prohibited. It might be discouraged with a 2 week self quarantine request. Nothing here changes that. I think there would be some interstate commerce problems with prohibiting travel across state lines.


Chain - 4/17/2020 at 09:52 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Some states have the talent and resources to develop their own guidelines, perhaps improving upon these. Some states may want to follow them as is. Governors and health professional in each state get to determine when and how they do this - exactly as it should be.


So, NO State to State travel at first?


State to state travel is not currently prohibited. It might be discouraged with a 2 week self quarantine request. Nothing here changes that. I think there would be some interstate commerce problems with prohibiting travel across state lines.


Seems reasonable but as you said above, without enough testing, no plan to reopen will be a safe one.


alanwoods - 4/17/2020 at 12:32 PM

I live in a county that has had 1 new case in the last 6 days and 7 total active cases. It does border a county with 38 active cases. Our governor has extended the "safer at home" order until April 30. I think we could phase-in the easing of restrictions in the non-hotspot areas beginning pretty much immediately. I do realize that with increased mobility, the virus has an opportunity to put a hump in the curve, but you can't just flip a switch and say "tada!!" to restart things even now. It will take a lot longer to start it up than it did to shut it down.


LeglizHemp - 4/17/2020 at 02:16 PM

I won't feel safe until there is a vaccine.
I will continue to practice social distancing.
I will continue to have my groceries delivered. (Had never done before)
I will continue to do most of my shopping online.

That said, as soon as Australia opens its borders I'm heading back.


Rusty - 4/17/2020 at 02:35 PM

As I see it, there is one problem with this immediate plan. Americans.

In the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave - we tend to take things like social distance requirements personally - often as some sort of personal affront. Think of that scene in the Monty Python film (The Meaning of Life (I think)) where the Grim Reaper comes to call and is put off by the American's, "I'll have you know" attitude.

We either don't take this stuff seriously or we imagine that the dangers only apply to those who are less sophisticated than ourselves.

I've just returned from the grocery store. They've done a great job of urging customers to space out while shopping, but the cash register lines? Something about America? Whenever there's a line we tend to move forward to compress the line. This will make it move faster, right?

In a post in another thread, people argue that "concerts would be safe if the attendees would stay 7 feet apart." I laughed so hard reading that one that I may have to return to the grocery to see if they have any toilet paper! Y'all know for a fact that 2 minutes into the first song the audience would be jammed up against the stage. You DO know this, right?

Personally, I will not return to restaurants, bars or non-grocery shopping until I have seen a significant drop in new cases - at least in a 100 mile radius of my home. Y'all are free to pick your own poisons.

Peace.

RB


PhotoRon286 - 4/17/2020 at 02:40 PM

quote:
I support this, and I also support Gov Cumo if he says that the timeline would compromise the safety of New Yorkers. I leave it to Cumo and his advisors if they say its too soon than its too soon. I dont care what Trump thinks should be done if he is outside of a hot zone. Leave it too the governors to manage their local hot zones.


I agree with you.


stormyrider - 4/17/2020 at 03:47 PM

Looks like a good plan.
Unfortunately, not reality right now

I'm a physician in NH
Right now, we have enough PPE . We have this thanks to private donations and aggressive actions by our health system for purchasing and re sterilizing. Some local companies have also been very innovative in helping. We haven't gotten anything from the Feds. However 4 hospitals in our state have critical shortages of masks and gowns

There is clearly not enough testing. Until this week, testing was essentially only available to people who were sick enough to be hospitalized, or to health care or chronic care workers (for public health reasons). We have gotten some more kits and criteria for testing has been liberalized a bit, but not nearly enough.
The scary thing is that people are infectious before they have symptoms, and asymptomatic carriers may be infectious also. Without a vaccine, imo it won't be safe until we can test pretty much everyone on a regular basis and then trust them to self quarantine.

Hopefully, we will have enough testing (including serum testing) soon so we can all get on with life


nebish - 4/17/2020 at 04:41 PM

There just is not going to be testing on the scale that are going to make people 100% comfortable.

So then, do we wait...and how long will that take?

It will be interesting to see how the governors interpret the testing, screening and surveillance "gates" or hurdles before phase 1 can begin. I don't think by strict interpretation that many or any states would be able to pass that requirement would they?

Absent of that can we enter into phase 1, assuming flu-like symptoms and confirmed cases are on downward trajectory for 14 days?

I think it can be tried. A lot of this is going to come down to personal decisions and willingness to potentially be exposed and infected. You almost have to act like and assume that you could or would be infected any time you do something outside the home in a public type place. The gas station, anywhere. So I think with precautions, face masks, distancing, either gloves or hand sanitizer with frequent washing of hands - how many are willing to start to try and do things we haven't been able to do? It's going to depend on many variables that only individual people can answer. Should we be given that opportunity? It's up to our governors and their team of medical professionals and advisors that are looking at the data. There is danger and risk in being too protective and there is danger in risk in being too willing to open things up.

In the state I'm in, up to this point we have plenty of people going to work each day in essential business (which is somewhat open to interpretation). So either these workers, or their employers have already accepted the risk they are putting themselves at to service us and/or fulfill their duties for society - as have the customers and other commercial businesses that supply and interact with them. Acceptable risk decisions have already been made. Soon, based off the data, it will be time for the governors to decide how and when to expand that acceptable risk with relaxed restrictions and then everyone else will have to decide what they want.

I think the biggest thing that needs to be weighed in whatever the governors or us as individuals decide is what risk are we placing upon the health care system. The facilities, the equipment and the stress on the personnel that serve and help the sick. If county and regional and state hospitals and medical providers have the free capacity and supplies, then we can proceed with caution. When or if, infections get to the point where the system is going to be stressed, we should pause.

There are going to be new infections as we go through this. Fauci has said as much. If we can manage it properly, is this acceptable risk tolerable? There just isn't going to be the testing necessary in the short term. So if we wait solely for that we might be waiting a long time still.


stormyrider - 4/17/2020 at 05:51 PM

the new data on remdesivir, if it pans out, has the potential to change things


Chain - 4/17/2020 at 09:24 PM

I think Cuomo explained the testing dilemma pretty well in today's press conference.....The states simply haven't the ability to scale this requirement up enough to even make a dent in the required numbers needed.

His call to action by the federal government and Trump was met with the usually stupidity from Caligula in Chief....Maybe it's better that dear leader spends most of his time not actually doing anything but watching Faux news and texting. Less for him to f*ck up that way.

That's probably how his henchman handle him...Just give him his cell phone and place him in a room with a television and a McDonald's lunch.


stormyrider - 4/18/2020 at 01:37 AM

This afternoon's news- Covid rapidly becoming #1 killer in US

It is claimed we need 2-3x the testing capacity

ID LOVE For the country to be open for so many reasons
I’m concerned about people ill with things that have nothing to do with this virus not getting the health care they need, in addition to the obvious financial concerns
I just don’t think most of the country is close to getting there


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 11:55 AM

Great News! As part of opening up America again, some beaches have reopened in Florida - up here, Gov Scott said employees w/little contact w/others, like construction etc can return to work next week

Radio reported a festive scene at the beaches, w/people running, fishing, swimming, cycling, beach combing in a welcome return to normal -
outdoors & fresh air is the way to say goodby to the pandemic & that was just the atmosphere at the beaches, where there was no hint of virus worry, people interviewed on the radio said

People have cabin fever, they’re itching to get outdoors just like every spring - this fever is the right antidote & must be accommodated - ‘social distancing’ can be too

The economic devastation continues tho - three colleges in the Vt state system are set to consolidate next year, closing two of the campuses, in Lyndon and Johnson

Lyndon has basically been closed this spring, like many others - its campus is high on a hill w/spectacular views, dynamite riding trails etc - it’s major bad news, just as the closure of the ski areas & everything else has been - it’s been chilly & the ski conditions would have been sweet - what will become of those campuses, heaven only knows

Good wknd, all the best



[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Stephen]


Rusty - 4/18/2020 at 12:09 PM

Oh yeah - flocking to the beaches for some fun and sun and volleyball and stuff sounds great! Unless you live in a coastal resort area like I do. We were Corona-free until the Spring Break a few weeks ago. We had a couple of cases pop up immediately after - then the exponential build-up that often follows pandemic outbreak ensued.

So, hell yeah! Send us your bored and infected. By the end of summer we'll know just how good an idea this was.


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 01:39 PM

And yet, I’d bet most merchants & business community were glad to greet the kids on spring break & get it in under the wire - a win-win-lose this year, kids partied, local economy got its annual boost - & the coronavirus appeared also

Many happy stoked concert goers attended a show at MSG a short 5 weeks ago - also just b4 the pandemic began - hopefully the vibe of the awesome smoking show isn’t replaced by the worrisome possibility of having contracted what was at the time an active virus

Am Not Downplaying It - the stats are there, hundreds of thousands dead worldwide, tens of thousands in this country - but the desire for a return to normal is understandable too



[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Stephen]


nebish - 4/18/2020 at 02:46 PM

I'm hearing and reading A LOT of premature openings and planned openings.

Ohio has done a good job, we have really flattened the curve. They estimate we are now, currently, in the peak plateau time. Dewine says he plans to relax some restrictions May 1st. But we haven't experienced a 14 day trajectory of declining numbers yet. Maybe by May 1st we will be on that path, but it is hard to see it now. Same with other states that have yet to peak or are in their peak, with no evidence of declining cases a bunch of these states are already jumping to phase one.

So these governors can do what they want to unwind this, just as they could on the front side to mitigate. To me, it seems like there is a pretty decent federal guidance plan, I think the "gates" or the hurdles before you can get to phase 1 were key for health professionals like Fauci to get onboard, but it is like that is being ignored already.


Chain - 4/18/2020 at 02:50 PM

quote:
I'm hearing and reading A LOT of premature openings and planned openings.

Ohio has done a good job, we have really flattened the curve. They estimate we are now, currently, in the peak plateau time. Dewine says he plans to relax some restrictions May 1st. But we haven't experienced a 14 day trajectory of declining numbers yet. Maybe by May 1st we will be on that path, but it is hard to see it now. Same with other states that have yet to peak or are in their peak, with no evidence of declining cases a bunch of these states are already jumping to phase one.

So these governors can do what they want to unwind this, just as they could on the front side to mitigate. To me, it seems like there is a pretty decent federal guidance plan, I think the "gates" or the hurdles before you can get to phase 1 were key for health professionals like Fauci to get onboard, but it is like that is being ignored already.


It is being ignored....Which is not surprising given the President sends mixed messages every 5 minutes and contradicts everything that comes out of his mouth.


stormyrider - 4/18/2020 at 02:58 PM

Yep
It’s one thing if people were putting only themselves at risk. That’s their decision. But, if someone goes out, parties, gets infected, that person will likely infect some other innocent person (or people) in the next few days before he even knows he’s infected, putting innocent people at risk. And then someone will go to the hospital and put nurses and doctors at risk.
If I ski without a helmet and get a concussion, that’s all on me. This is different. One person infects other people, and lives are lost.
I hate this now- I do. But it’s too early to relax. Social distancing works.

[Edited on 4/18/2020 by stormyrider]


nebish - 4/18/2020 at 03:02 PM

I really really want some additional economic activity. I want to push for it. But I also see waiting for cases declining as being very prudent. It's a way to justify, a way to explain what is happening and why and what is not happening and why. I'm anxious too, but I understand this. Cases declining is a key metric.

Lots of protests now. Ohio has had protests outside the capital for 2 weeks now.


nebish - 4/18/2020 at 03:41 PM

Without trying to look at every state's graph, I found this which cites the IHME model for projecting 4 states having the ability to relax their orders. Even though they had a rather controversial projection of no covid-19 deaths after June, otherwise, I have found following data and projections from their model to be better than the rest.

quote:
At least four states may be able to loosen social distancing measures next month, an influential model tracking the coronavirus pandemic says.

The model's new projections show that Vermont, West Virginia, Montana and Hawaii could open as early as May 4.

While most states could open mid-to-late May, some states including Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Utah, Arkansas and Oklahoma may need to wait until late June or early July.

Dr. Christopher Murray, the model's maker and director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, said some of those states should not relax social distancing because the outbreak is still "unfolding."

"You gotta wait until the level of cases in the community is at a manageable level," he said.
Murray said the challenge will be figuring out how to reopen the US economy and allowing people to get back to work without sacrificing mitigation.

"Each state is different," Murray said. "Each state has a different public health system, and different capabilities. This is not a 'one decision fits all' situation."

The model is now estimating a total of 60,308 deaths in the US by August 4. That's about 8,500 fewer deaths than predicted on Monday.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/17/health/us-coronavirus-friday/index.html



BIGV - 4/18/2020 at 05:32 PM

quote:
So, hell yeah! Send us your bored and infected.


We should just send them all to California where they can be rewarded for their behavior just like the Illegal Aliens there who are receiving financial support on the Taxpayer's back.


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 05:39 PM

Yeah beaches reopening, ski areas/college campuses closing, cabin fever, getting outdoors, ecomic devastation....
Translated by/from the BS detector of skydog32103 to be, “veiled swipes at Democrats”
Party on bro & don’t overdo it

[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Stephen]


tbomike - 4/18/2020 at 05:52 PM

I am a Democrat who fully supports the reopening of this country and I sick to death of everyone on my side of the aisle thinking we are all in group think.


Jerry - 4/18/2020 at 05:57 PM

quote:
quote:
Great News! As part of opening up America again, some beaches have reopened in Florida - up here, Gov Scott said employees w/little contact w/others, like construction etc can return to work next week

Radio reported a festive scene at the beaches, w/people running, fishing, swimming, cycling, beach combing in a welcome return to normal -
outdoors & fresh air is the way to say goodby to the pandemic & that was just the atmosphere at the beaches, where there was no hint of virus worry, people interviewed on the radio said

People have cabin fever, they’re itching to get outdoors just like every spring - this fever is the right antidote & must be accommodated - ‘social distancing’ can be too

The economic devastation continues tho - three colleges in the Vt state system are set to consolidate next year, closing two of the campuses, in Lyndon and Johnson

Lyndon has basically been closed this spring, like many others - its campus is high on a hill w/spectacular views, dynamite riding trails etc - it’s major bad news, just as the closure of the ski areas & everything else has been - it’s been chilly & the ski conditions would have been sweet - what will become of those campuses, heaven only knows

Good wknd, all the best


I find this to be incredibly irresponsible, selfish, juvenile, and reckless. Your disingenuous veiled swipes at Democrats are sad to watch....why do you hide your contempt?



[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Skydog32103]


What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


BIGV - 4/18/2020 at 06:00 PM

quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Jerry - 4/18/2020 at 06:05 PM

quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Yeah. That's probably what we'll get, or a unveiled attack on the questioner.


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 06:15 PM

He must’ve meant when I was reckless selfish juvenile or all of the above

To clarify, the chancellor of the state college system Recommended the closure of those two campuses - the VSCS will consider the recommendation on Monday


tbomike - 4/18/2020 at 06:15 PM

quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Catch this yet? Awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ&feature=youtu.be


BIGV - 4/18/2020 at 06:30 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Catch this yet? Awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ&feature=youtu.be




Spot on and directly to the point!


nebish - 4/18/2020 at 07:25 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Catch this yet? Awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ&feature=youtu.be




Very good, thanks.


gina - 4/18/2020 at 09:57 PM

Florida opened Jacksonville Beach for 3 hours in the morning and 3 hours later. It is too soon to safely open Florida. June 1st is when Florida could safely ease restrictions. Doing it sooner can cause a surge in cases.

For Georgia the safe time is June 15.

For Louisiana May 18.

For NY it is June 1.

For Rhode Island June 8th.

For Vermont May 4th.

For California May 18th.

For Illinois May 25th.

For Washington DC June 8th.

South Dakota June 22.

Https://covid19.healthdata.org

Scroll down find your state.

If you do not believe it look at the real time day to day numbers for your state.

Https://theguardian.com

Here we have 10,000 + new cases each day. Another week or two we will have a quarter of a million cases identified.


Jerry - 4/18/2020 at 10:06 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


"Please stay on the line, your request is very important to us, but I am afraid it can not be answered at this time"


Catch this yet? Awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcvIQJ-QurQ&feature=youtu.be




Sic 'em Bill.

Typical news show at 6:30 pm.

Lead off with deaths of victims.
Show empty streets and stores.
Show empty stadiums.
Show graph of stock market decline.
Have 10 minutes of news on other subjects.
Show empty school, with sideline of no graduation exercise for the seniors.
Show unemployment numbers (make sure you use the "possibly up to" phrase).
Talk about shortages of food and supplies at grocery stores (obligatory photo of empty paper aisle).
Close out with video of mass burials of unclaimed bodies (leave out figures of just how many died of Covid-19)
Remind viewers "We're all in this together."

Then comes on Family Feud, Jeopardy, Wheel of Fortune, or a local show about the Pandemic.


tbomike - 4/18/2020 at 10:20 PM

The commercials by companies wanting us not to use their products are driving me nuts.


Jerry - 4/18/2020 at 10:23 PM

quote:
The commercials by companies wanting us not to use their products are driving me nuts.


I keep asking the tv, "How does the pizza get cut if it goes from oven to box to me?"

Also, how do you "triple churn" palm kernel oil ?


piacere - 4/18/2020 at 10:53 PM

Come on 32103, Stephen? Stephen doesn't have a disingenuous bone in his body.


Stephen - 4/18/2020 at 11:33 PM

quote:
i'm not one to hide. he's posted something along the lines before of "i know i'll have tomatoes thrown at me for this, but....", or "....attack away at me for saying this, but....", playing the victim in advance! Stephen likes to take passive aggressive swipes at the left - the horrors happening in liberal Vermont, while congrats to red Florida for being imbeciles! Just state your point without the theatrics.


Straight comedy - wasn’t thinking about the right or left, liberal or conservative in mentioning beach reopenings/ski area closures etc -

re playing the victim/posting w/a lot of theatrics etc - same thing (was laughing)
your posts are from the galactic beyond bro - maybe amping up, not easing back on whatever you’re taking will get you more grounded/connected......?

Am not hiding anything or posting w/some subliminal ulterior motive/meaning in mind


stormyrider - 4/18/2020 at 11:43 PM

I thought we were having a good discussion for a while
There was some disagreement but it was ok, non toxic

Oh well


Stephen - 4/19/2020 at 12:50 AM

Don’t want any tomatoes thrown at me
Know I’ll be attacked for this

But toxic the last few posts are not - funny as heck they are! - esp at 11:26 am, 12:39, & 6 pm
Also disingenuous, oh wait.....

[Edited on 4/19/2020 by Stephen]


Jerry - 4/19/2020 at 01:43 AM




I find this to be incredibly irresponsible, selfish, juvenile, and reckless. Your disingenuous veiled swipes at Democrats are sad to watch....why do you hide your contempt?
[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Skydog32103]


do you think these guys are selfish, irresponsible,juvenile, and reckless?
foxnews.com/lifestyle/ny-nj-connecticut-reopening-marinas-coronavirus


nebish - 4/19/2020 at 01:52 AM



Vermont does have the appearance of a good 7-day average.

quote:

First businesses allowed to reopen

Scott’s pledge to deliver relief to the newly unemployed came as he made the first step Friday toward reopening the Vermont economy.

Scott said he’s lifting his business-closure order, effective April 20, for one- to two-person crews in “construction or similar trades,” so long as those workers maintain six feet of distance and wear cloth masks. He said he’s also lifting the closure order for “low- or no-contact professional services,” including appraisers, realtors and attorneys.

Scott is also allowing farmers markets to open, beginning May 1. He said the Agency of Agriculture is in the process of drafting operational regulations for markets that choose to open.

“I don’t want to give the false impression that this is going to be the traditional farmers market where people come and gather and it’s an event,” Scott said. “This isn’t an event. This will be to get your goods and move along.”

Case growth rate slows

Scott said the decision to slowly “open the spigot” on the Vermont economy is driven by new modeling projections that suggest Vermont has turned the corner on new coronavirus cases.

The governor said the daily growth rate in new cases has averaged less than 4% over the past 12 days, and Commissioner of Financial Regulation Michael Pieciak said the seven-day average rate fell from 9% last week to 2% this week.

“It is now safe to assume that we have reached our peak for new confirmed cases in Vermont,” Pieciak said.

Pieciak warned, however, that despite the decline in new cases, “the virus is considerably more pervasive in Vermont than it was at any other point during the pandemic.”

“And relaxing our social distancing measures too quickly, or not continuing our collective good work of following those guidelines and following the hygiene guidelines, has the potential to quickly jolt us back toward a much more severe scenario,” Pieciak said.

Scott said that specter of another spike in COVID-19 cases will loom over Vermont’s economy “for the foreseeable future.” And he said Vermonters shouldn’t expect a return to the status quo until scientists develop a vaccine for the new coronavirus.

“Because the reality is, until we do have the vaccine, we’re still going to have this virus among us,” Scott said.

https://www.vpr.org/post/scott-promises-relief-jobless-vermonters-snagged-u nemployment-backlog#stream/0








nebish - 4/19/2020 at 01:55 AM



Texas does not yet appear ready by that graph, yet is moving forward with loosening restrictions and allowing some business activity and outpatient surgeries to begin.

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/17/texas-reopening-greg-abbott-coronav irus/


nebish - 4/19/2020 at 02:02 AM



The President said that Montana will start to lift restrictions Friday, Montana Gov says plan not finalized.

https://www.ktvq.com/news/coronavirus/trump-announces-montana-will-lift-res trictions-friday-bullock-says-plan-not-finalized


nebish - 4/19/2020 at 02:08 AM







Trump also listed Idaho, North Dakota and Ohio as making plans for a phased reopening May 1st...Idaho might be close. North Dakota and Ohio appear to need more time. May 1st might reveal that, but unsure how they can predict that looking at the current data on case count alone.


piacere - 4/19/2020 at 11:59 AM

It's good that a few states are opening, as much as I completely disagree with it. Let them be the nation's petri dish. Nice weather coming combined with people getting beyond impatient and low on deneros, not to mention their constitutional right to infect my ass makes for turbulent times indeed.
Have at it, just stay out of RI. Thanks.


alanwoods - 4/19/2020 at 12:15 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Great News! As part of opening up America again, some beaches have reopened in Florida - up here, Gov Scott said employees w/little contact w/others, like construction etc can return to work next week

Radio reported a festive scene at the beaches, w/people running, fishing, swimming, cycling, beach combing in a welcome return to normal -
outdoors & fresh air is the way to say goodby to the pandemic & that was just the atmosphere at the beaches, where there was no hint of virus worry, people interviewed on the radio said

People have cabin fever, they’re itching to get outdoors just like every spring - this fever is the right antidote & must be accommodated - ‘social distancing’ can be too

The economic devastation continues tho - three colleges in the Vt state system are set to consolidate next year, closing two of the campuses, in Lyndon and Johnson

Lyndon has basically been closed this spring, like many others - its campus is high on a hill w/spectacular views, dynamite riding trails etc - it’s major bad news, just as the closure of the ski areas & everything else has been - it’s been chilly & the ski conditions would have been sweet - what will become of those campuses, heaven only knows

Good wknd, all the best


I find this to be incredibly irresponsible, selfish, juvenile, and reckless. Your disingenuous veiled swipes at Democrats are sad to watch....why do you hide your contempt?



[Edited on 4/18/2020 by Skydog32103]


What "disingenuous veiled swipe" are you posting about? I don't see a disingenuous swipe of veiled or unveiled attempt at any Democrats.
Cold you please point it out, excuse me, post and quote the part that you are posting about?


Otie getting a tad sensitive. I think Vegas is basically shuttered.


Bhawk - 4/19/2020 at 03:25 PM

quote:
This afternoon's news- Covid rapidly becoming #1 killer in US

It is claimed we need 2-3x the testing capacity

ID LOVE For the country to be open for so many reasons
I’m concerned about people ill with things that have nothing to do with this virus not getting the health care they need, in addition to the obvious financial concerns
I just don’t think most of the country is close to getting there


Need more swabs and reagents!


Bhawk - 4/19/2020 at 03:47 PM

There is the question of when to "re-open" things, but maybe a deeper question is, how many will actually rejoin? It's not like everyone is going to charge right back in and the economy will be magically restored in 24 hours.

This experience has changed and challenged quite a few things long considered as normal. From online shopping (is this what finally kills off big box retail?) to working at home (is the M-F 8-5 paradigm in danger?), the adaptive nature of people forces change in all kinds of ways.

I've had several conversations with others in healthcare supply chain and we can't help but wonder if the just-in-time purchasing/distribution model is pure folly and left us on a large scale woefully under-prepared by getting so far away from stockpiling.

3M has a virtual international monopoly on premium masks as well as PAPR systems and hoods. Never knew just how dominant they are until the last six weeks...is that a good thing?

I get the political back and forth and I do get the nationalism (although I don't always understand it in the rational sense...it's a virus, it doesn't care where you were born). Until there's a vaccine, we will likely be spending the next year playing hotspot whack-a-mole. Everyone isn't going to stay home, anyway.


cyclone88 - 4/19/2020 at 04:42 PM

quote:
There is the question of when to "re-open" things, but maybe a deeper question is, how many will actually rejoin? It's not like everyone is going to charge right back in and the economy will be magically restored in 24 hours.

This experience has changed and challenged quite a few things long considered as normal. From online shopping (is this what finally kills off big box retail?) to working at home (is the M-F 8-5 paradigm in danger?), the adaptive nature of people forces change in all kinds of ways.


Agreed. This experience has accelerated trends that were already in the works - the death of brick/mortar retail, traditional work hours that were already moving toward work/life integration, & a shift toward tele-medicine.

Will everyone re-join? Workers w/a choice will exercise that choice if there is some workable solution re antibody tests, vaccines, & treatments. The workers who don't have a choice are going to continue to do what they're doing. The income/economic class gap widens.

Not everyone is eager to socialize under the new normal. Are people going to dash off to restaurants where they have to have their temperature taken before entering, limited to parties of 4, served by waiters in full PPE, & choose food from disposable menus? What's the restaurant owner to do if patrons don't comply w/new protective regulations? What about movie theatres? concert halls? sports? Although they're entertainment, they're businesses & no one is in business to lose money.

Trump seems to be acting under the assumption that a switch will flip & everything will be "normal." I don't think he's right.


BrerRabbit - 4/19/2020 at 06:17 PM

quote:
It's good that a few states are opening, as much as I completely disagree with it. Let them be the nation's petri dish. Nice weather coming combined with people getting beyond impatient and low on deneros, not to mention their constitutional right to infect my ass makes for turbulent times indeed.
Have at it, just stay out of RI. Thanks.


LOL - excellent. Some straight shooting. Pretty much says it all.

If the thunder dont get you then the lightning will



nebish - 4/19/2020 at 08:54 PM

quote:
There is the question of when to "re-open" things, but maybe a deeper question is, how many will actually rejoin? It's not like everyone is going to charge right back in and the economy will be magically restored in 24 hours.

This experience has changed and challenged quite a few things long considered as normal. From online shopping (is this what finally kills off big box retail?) to working at home (is the M-F 8-5 paradigm in danger?), the adaptive nature of people forces change in all kinds of ways.

I've had several conversations with others in healthcare supply chain and we can't help but wonder if the just-in-time purchasing/distribution model is pure folly and left us on a large scale woefully under-prepared by getting so far away from stockpiling.

3M has a virtual international monopoly on premium masks as well as PAPR systems and hoods. Never knew just how dominant they are until the last six weeks...is that a good thing?

I get the political back and forth and I do get the nationalism (although I don't always understand it in the rational sense...it's a virus, it doesn't care where you were born). Until there's a vaccine, we will likely be spending the next year playing hotspot whack-a-mole. Everyone isn't going to stay home, anyway.


From the hip, 50% might come back. I think recreation has a chance to return with the economic benefits that come with that. Hiking gear, rafting stuff, ATVs, fishing. Traveling by car has a chance to come back. But many other areas are going to be damaged, some perhaps irreparably so.

Just in time delivery has definitely hampered availability of things we need.

There are going to be flare ups.

Most of us have done a good job listening to the advice. We’ve come a long way and flattened the curve. We need to stick it out a little longer. Let supplies build up, let cases go down. Then we need to be careful, smart and incremental.


PhotoRon286 - 4/19/2020 at 09:04 PM

My youngest son is an EMT in NY with AMR.

He just told me he's heading to work in NYC for two weeks, probably leaving Friday or Sunday.

I thought my sleepless nights ended when my daughter came home from the Army.


BIGV - 4/19/2020 at 11:09 PM

quote:
Not everyone is eager to socialize under the new normal.


"The new normal"

How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?

Not presumptive, no theories.....


BrerRabbit - 4/19/2020 at 11:15 PM

quote:
My youngest son is an EMT in NY with AMR.

He just told me he's heading to work in NYC for two weeks, probably leaving Friday or Sunday.

I thought my sleepless nights ended when my daughter came home from the Army.


That is scary. A parent's worries are never over. Brave good kids you got there.


PhotoRon286 - 4/20/2020 at 12:18 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
My youngest son is an EMT in NY with AMR.

He just told me he's heading to work in NYC for two weeks, probably leaving Friday or Sunday.

I thought my sleepless nights ended when my daughter came home from the Army.


That is scary. A parent's worries are never over. Brave good kids you got there.


I'm proud of him but scared as all hell about this.

He'd been off three weeks waiting on test results after transporting numerous covid patients in Syracuse.

He's feeling fine, likely it was sinus issues and work related exhaustion.

Not looking forward to the next month.

His sister survived a roadside bomb in Baghdad.

She had armor on her humvee, he's got nothing but cloth and soap.


cyclone88 - 4/20/2020 at 02:11 PM

quote:
"The new normal"How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?

I used CA Gov. Gavin Newsom's description of what restaurants will look like in my post. Almost any description of what businesses/workplaces will look like start w/taking the temperature of anyone who enters - worker or customer - until accurate antibody tests are available to everyone. So far, one hasn't even been developed.

We're living the new normal now in essential businesses that are open - workers (everyone from pharmacists to stockers) wearing masks, customers wearing masks, tape or painted markers at 6 foot intervals in check-out lines and in store aisles to remind customers to stand apart from each other, employees wearing disposable gloves, greeters stationed at the entrance wiping off the handle of a shopping cart w/a disinfectant wipe before allowing a customer to use it, & a refusal to accept cash.

Traditional campus-based colleges (e.g., BU) are planning to continue online-only classes for summer & fall semesters. Some state universities w/multiple campuses have announced plans to consolidate at the main campus & close satellite campuses.

Movie studio executives are in negotiations to forego theatrical releases for what would've been summer/Christmas blockbusters in favor of streaming services. Film festivals where movies garner prestigious awards & industry buzz that heightens earnings are being cancelled. Future production is halted while negotiations for financing w/o theatrical distribution are made. The Oscars organization is considering combing the Academy Awards for 2020 & 2021. The trade associations for movie distribution are forecasting grim financial projections much as brick/mortar retailers are shuttering stores in favor of online only sales & are addressing the issues of taking the temperature of every movie-goer prior to admission, disinfecting theatres after every show which would require staggering screenings, cordoning off seating in 6 foot intervals, eliminating concessions, & hiring security to enforce seating policies.

I get my examples from major newspapers & trade publications. The business sections of major newspapers regularly publish articles w/industry executives as to how their businesses would change when re-opening while there is no antibody testing, vaccine, or treatment for COVID-19.




nebish - 4/20/2020 at 03:35 PM

“we are weeks if not months away from having sufficient test capacity.”

Former CDC director Tom Friedman.

He also says if we were only testing the highest priority people we would need 3x more tests. We currently are at 150,000 per day a little over a million a week. If we try to test really extensively it would be 10-20x that.

With people making those statements, my question becomes, what is possible? I’d like to know, let’s just say we lived in fantasy land and everyone approved of our federal governments response and actions. Can somebody actually say that we can get to 10-20 million tests per week? And when could we even be at that point? Summer? Fall? 2021? What kind of country are we going to have by then?

It’s one thing to say what we need to be doing from people not responsible for actually doing it. It’s another thing to explain how the shortage of supplies and components gets where it needs to be in order to conduct 40-80 million tests per month. We test 4 million currently.

I’m sure the next great test and break through is right around the corner. But how long can we wait around for it? Indefinitely? And indefinite government rescue programs. Sounds like indefinite depression.

Let’s see where states case count, or better ratio positive/negative results go. If they are coming down over a 1-2 week period of time, we need to prepare for phase 1.


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 03:38 PM

quote:
quote:
"The new normal "How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?


================

quote:
"until accurate antibody tests are available to everyone"


California is nuts, absolutely nuts and the keyword here is "until" making this temporary.

quote:
a refusal to accept cash.


Have not witnessed this

quote:
Traditional campus-based colleges (e.g., BU) are planning to continue online-only classes for summer & fall semesters.


"Planning to continue"..temporary

quote:
Movie studio executives are in negotiations to forego theatrical releases for what would've been summer/Christmas blockbusters in favor of streaming services. Film festivals where movies garner prestigious awards & industry buzz that heightens earnings are being cancelled. Future production is halted while negotiations for financing w/o theatrical distribution are made. The Oscars organization is considering combing the Academy Awards for 2020 & 2021. The trade associations for movie distribution are forecasting grim financial projections much as brick/mortar retailers are shuttering stores in favor of online only sales & are addressing the issues of taking the temperature of every movie-goer prior to admission, disinfecting theatres after every show which would require staggering screenings, cordoning off seating in 6 foot intervals, eliminating concessions, & hiring security to enforce seating policies.


if your vision of a "new normal" means Hollywood and its "influence" might be going away or diminishing, I could not be happier about that.

quote:
while there is no antibody testing, vaccine, or treatment for COVID-19.


Once again, it appears you are describing temporary scenarios that in no way insinuate permanent change.

"While covid19 is rampant, I have been asked to stay at home..."Is this the new normal"?

Or a temporary fix?


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 03:44 PM

quote:
“we are weeks if not months away from having sufficient test capacity.”

Former CDC director Tom Friedman.

He also says if we were only testing the highest priority people we would need 3x more tests. We currently are at 150,000 per day a little over a million a week. If we try to test really extensively it would be 10-20x that.

With people making those statements, my question becomes, what is possible? I’d like to know, let’s just say we lived in fantasy land and everyone approved of our federal governments response and actions. Can somebody actually say that we can get to 10-20 million tests per week? And when could we even be at that point? Summer? Fall? 2021? What kind of country are we going to have by then?

It’s one thing to say what we need to be doing from people not responsible for actually doing it. It’s another thing to explain how the shortage of supplies and components gets where it needs to be in order to conduct 40-80 million tests per month. We test 4 million currently.

I’m sure the next great test and break through is right around the corner. But how long can we wait around for it? Indefinitely? And indefinite government rescue programs. Sounds like indefinite depression.

Let’s see where states case count, or better ratio positive/negative results go. If they are coming down over a 1-2 week period of time, we need to prepare for phase 1.


I have to add that the whole country and its need to get back to living & business and their readiness to best judge when that should happen, should not and can NEVER be based solely on what is happening in New York or any other huge American city.


Rusty - 4/20/2020 at 04:40 PM

Okay, I am very rarely correct about anything. Ask my wife.

Back in January ... I was offering my $.02 to anybody who was willing to listen. Most were not. Probably due to my rarely being correct. What I advised then was - close up the shops, bars and restaurants - sacrifice (forfeit) the Spring Break business and possibly recover the much larger Summer business. This advice flew like a $hit balloon. Nobody saw any sense in my idea.

So now - a whole lotta people who are likely a whole lot smarter than me want to hurry up and reopen these establishments. Ready or not.

Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.


cyclone88 - 4/20/2020 at 05:16 PM

quote:
Once again, it appears you are describing temporary scenarios that in no way insinuate permanent change.
"While covid19 is rampant, I have been asked to stay at home..."Is this the new normal"? Or a temporary fix?

We are not in a temporary fix. We are in a stop-the-spread period in a pandemic.

May 1 is when re-opening is supposed to start to happen. No antibody test, vaccination, or treatment planned to roll out by then. Estimates for those are anywhere from 2 months to 2 years or beyond. There's no guarantee that anything will be identified, approved, & made widely available so re-opening guidelines are all based on anyone can transmit the COVID19 virus to others.

We live in the present. Even w/stimulus packages & other aid, there are businesses & industries that will close because they simply can't hang on until the fix arrives. There are certain businesses where tele-working will replace life in the cubicle. We will not return to life as it was in summer 2019. We'll return to some new iteration.

You asked for examples. I gave examples of what industry leaders - some of whom are informal advisers to Trump on re-opening - are saying. Can't do more than that.


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 05:31 PM

quote:
quote:
Once again, it appears you are describing temporary scenarios that in no way insinuate permanent change.
"While covid19 is rampant, I have been asked to stay at home..."Is this the new normal"? Or a temporary fix?

We are not in a temporary fix. We are in a stop-the-spread period in a pandemic.


And when the spread is stopped and the virus contained?

quote:
You asked for examples. I gave examples


Thanks and I disagree with your conclusions


nebish - 4/20/2020 at 05:39 PM

You did provide good examples cyclone.

And BigV, I agree, there is no one-size fits all approach. A lot of people think there should be and a lot of others think there should not be. So what are we going to do? I am thankful that the mayors and governors close to their constituents are responsible for the decisions. Some might make good decisions and some might make bad decisions, but this is what we have. NY and NYC will do what is right for them and they will reap the benefit or sacrifice of that, as will other states.

And to Rusty's point, I just think we need a little more time. I don't want to appear like I'm on both sides of this. We need some economic activity, we need some mental relief to be able to get out and do stuff. But we have come this far. By and large, state to state, cases are not going down yet, or down enough or sustained trajectory. A little more time hopefully will get us further away from the hump and then we'll have to see how it goes. We can look to Europe and other places for examples as they go through this. We already saw some places in Asia try. These places were ahead of us with their infection, so they should try their relaxing and reopening before we do. And let's learn from what happens there, dos and don'ts.

I think we are on the cusp of trying this, but some people are pushing it too soon. And the President feeds it. The President should say and do a lot of things he doesn't. But on this, we have a 30 days to stop the spread that his administration put forth. OK. And his administration put forth opening guidelines. OK. I actually think the opening guidelines are pretty responsible, clearly some smart people inputted greatly on it. It might actually make it impossible to get through the gates, technically with the testing open to interpretation, but that is the map for states to try and follow. It was well done. Some states will have their own ideas. But the President is undermining everything. The 30 days to stop the spread runs until April 30th. He should say, we need to stay the course, we are winning, it's not over. Stick it out a little longer and when your states feel they can meet the criteria of relaxing restrictions, we will do so slowly and smartly, but if the 30 days to slow the spread is still in place, don't tell people to start opening now. He encouraging people to "free" themselves now, still with over a week to go in his own plan to slow the spread. He's a joke and he is making things worse right now. We have to start to try and relax the restrictions, but you have to follow some kind of plan and data as to when to do that...and some people aren't with these protests at the encouragement of the President.


[Edited on 4/20/2020 by nebish]


cyclone88 - 4/20/2020 at 05:45 PM

quote:
Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.

Agree w/you, but not to give the virus a little more time. Time is needed for the scientific/medical community to invent antibody testing, a vaccine, & treatments. If businesses are re-opened immediately w/o those things & everyone rushes out to that re-opening, we'll be right back where we were.


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 05:50 PM

quote:
quote:
Here is my latest free advice: if we give this virus a little more time - keep up with our home lock-downs and social distancing ... we might be able to open the malls and retail establishments for the Christmas holiday shopping season. Or we could rush into this ... and do our Christmas shopping on the computer when the malls are boarded shut.

Agree w/you, but not to give the virus a little more time. Time is needed for the scientific/medical community to invent antibody testing, a vaccine, & treatments. If businesses are re-opened immediately w/o those things & everyone rushes out to that re-opening, we'll be right back where we were.


quote:
I agree, there is no one-size fits all approach


Agreed, there is not. But I for one am growing weary of the newscasts making NYC the headquarters of this extremely difficult time for everyone in this country. Governor Cuomo, does not speak for this nation, he has the interests of the people of New York at stake, period. Perhaps N.Y. should seal off its borders while the rest of the Country figures out what is the best way to get up and moving again.


BrerRabbit - 4/20/2020 at 05:55 PM

As falls New York, so falls the USA


BIGV - 4/20/2020 at 06:02 PM

quote:
As falls New York, so falls the USA


If you live in NYC, I understand how you might choose to believe that.


Brendan - 4/20/2020 at 06:18 PM

I have not heard Andrew Cuomo presume to speak for anyone other than NY or dictate what anyone outside of NY does.

NYC gets a lot of coverage because, well it’s NYC. NY also has the most cases and deaths. That’s going to make the news.

Cuomo gets a lot of coverage because he’s been widely lauded for providing very transparent, timely, fact-based updates on the situation in NY in general.

You can always change the channel...


cyclone88 - 4/20/2020 at 06:22 PM

quote:
You did provide good examples cyclone.

I think we are on the cusp of trying this, but some people are pushing it too soon. And the President feeds it. The President should say and do a lot of things he doesn't. But on this, we have a 30 days to stop the spread that his administration put forth. OK. And his administration put forth opening guidelines. OK. I actually think the opening guidelines are pretty responsible, clearly some smart people inputted greatly on it. It might actually make it impossible to get through the gates, technically with the testing open to interpretation, but that is the map for states to try and follow. It was well done. Some states will have their own ideas.

But the President is undermining everything. The 30 days to stop the spread runs until April 30th. He should say, we need to stay the course, we are winning, it's not over. Stick it out a little longer and when your states feel they can meet the criteria of relaxing restrictions, we will do so slowly and smartly, but if the 30 days to slow the spread is still in place, don't tell people to start opening now. He encouraging people to "free" themselves now, still with over a week to go in his own plan to slow the spread. He's a joke and he is making things worse right now. We have to start to try and relax the restrictions, but you have to follow some kind of plan and data as to when to do that...and some people aren't with these protests at the encouragement of the President.

The examples aren't mine. I just repeated what business/industry leaders are saying about re-opening when there's no prevention or cure in sight.

I agree w/you. From what I've read, we've learned 3 things about COVID-19 since it arrived: 1) it affects people of all ages so everyone is vulnerable, 2) people can have the virus more than once, & 3) people can transmit the virus before they have symptoms. None of that sounds like we should rush to re-open w/o precautions.

We do have other countries ahead of us & we are learning what does/doesn't work from them.

There's no one size fits all re-open. A good leader would say everything you suggested. I've been saying for weeks that the prez's daily briefings shouldn't be televised in full because he lies, touts unproven cures, & mocks governors who are proceding at the pace models in their states show. He contradicts himself, takes valuable time from Drs. Fauci & Birx & even Pence to correct him, & generally confuses people. Journalism isn't just turning the camera on; journalism is filming, editing, & conveying information the public needs to know. Televise the experts not the political bluster.

One of the ironic things about his LIBERATE VIRGINIA! tweet is that Virginia is under an order through June 10 - probably one of the longest in the country - in part because its northern cities are DC commuting suburbs. More importantly, the governor is a PHYSICIAN who has repeatedly said that science not politics will dictate when/how to re-open. Granted, the governor is a Democrat, but he's also someone who knows more about medicine & science than Trump. Ergo, the stable genius must belittle him.


BrerRabbit - 4/20/2020 at 07:21 PM

quote:
quote:
As falls New York, so falls the USA
quote:
If you live in NYC, I understand how you might choose to believe that



I live in rural Oregon. Even from out here I can see New York is the economic center - heartbeat of the United States. keyword "United". I did not say the Republic of Texas or Cascadia will fall. Or the Neo-Feudal Compounds of the Free Fascists of Liberty.

The Union will dissolve if New York fails - sure as the Pax Romana ended with the Fall of Rome.

It isn't prophecy or belief, just extremely simple deduction.



nebish - 4/21/2020 at 02:15 AM

quote:
One of the ironic things about his LIBERATE VIRGINIA! tweet is that Virginia is under an order through June 10 - probably one of the longest in the country - in part because its northern cities are DC commuting suburbs. More importantly, the governor is a PHYSICIAN who has repeatedly said that science not politics will dictate when/how to re-open. Granted, the governor is a Democrat, but he's also someone who knows more about medicine & science than Trump. Ergo, the stable genius must belittle him.


Yeah but , there needs to be data to guide decision making. No doubt. There needs to be a clear plan in place. No doubt. Responsible leadership. Of course. But if you totally rely on the science it could be like NY saying they needed 140,000 hospital beds and they needed 30,000 ventilators at minimum. Science can be wrong, you can be too reliant on it to a detriment.

Everything changes, evolves day to day. It all needs weighed and evaluated and assumptions, expectations all need evaluated with risks and rewards. Solely relying on the science isn't enough. Solely relying on economics isn't enough. Strike the balance. We'll have some Democrat governors that I think will be playing politics in the sense they are reluctant to relax and open because Trump is pushing for it and their base wants to be more cautious. Just like we have some Republican governors are going too soon because Trump and their base wants them to. Politics is almost impossible to keep out of everything now.

I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state. They have to figure it out. It's just that solely relying on the science can be misguided as well.


BIGV - 4/21/2020 at 02:32 AM

quote:
I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state.


X2


2112 - 4/21/2020 at 03:09 AM

quote:
Georgia, Tennessee announce plans to reopen some businesses, wind down coronavirus stay-at-home orders

Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp said certain businesses including restaurants, gyms and hair salons can reopen beginning this Friday. Meanwhile, Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee confirmed his state's stay-at-home order, previously extended to April 30, will end that day.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/georgia-tennessee-announce-plans-to-reopen-some- businesses-wind-down-coronavirus-stay-at-home-orders



My gut tells me that this is too soon, especially in Georgia where they still have a significant number of new cases and deaths. But, it should be an interesting experiment for the other states to see what happen in a couple weeks after the reopening. If there isn't a big second wave, well then maybe some other states can think of reopening sooner than expected. If the number of new cases jump, well we will know what not to do. As I go to a music festival in Georgia ever September, I hope they can reopen things earlier than later and I can save my trip. If there is a big setback, then my trip will be doomed.


cyclone88 - 4/21/2020 at 05:06 AM

quote:
I stand by the belief that each governor should do what they see best for their state. They have to figure it out. It's just that solely relying on the science can be misguided as well.


Clarification: The Virginia governor didn't say he was relying solely on science. He said in the choice between politics & science, science is the determining factor. I have family there & follow his daily briefings that present models similar to those Fauci/Birx use on a county by county basis in the state. It's updated daily. There are daily reports of available resources, economic indicators, & other pertinent data to decision-making. Politics are less important to Virginia governors as they have a 4 yr term limit.


stormyrider - 4/21/2020 at 11:26 AM

Kentucky sees highest spike in coronavirus cases after lockdown protests


https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/kentucky-sees-highest-spike-in-coronavirus-ca ses-after-protests/


quote:
Kentucky experienced its highest single-day spike in coronavirus cases after protests broke out in the state to lift lockdowns, according to reports.

Gov. Andy Beshear announced there were 273 new cases Sunday, bringing the total to 2,960, news station WCPO reported.

“We are still in the midst of this fight against a deadly and highly contagious virus,” Beshear said. “Let’s make sure, as much as we’re looking at those benchmarks and we’re looking at the future, that we are acting in the present and we are doing the things that it takes to protect one another.”

The Bluegrass State is among the regions that have seen demonstrators take to the streets last week to call for the end of lockdown restrictions.

Around 100 protesters gathered Wednesday on the lawn of the Capitol building in Frankfort during Democrat Beshear’s coronavirus briefing, shouting “Open up Kentucky!” and “King Beshear,” the Lexington Herald-Leader reported.

The same group returned Friday to the Capitol building, where they were met by barricades, the newspaper reported.

Instead, they circled the area in cars for a drive-through protest of Beshear’s coronavirus restrictions, the report said.

It’s unclear whether the protests had any impact on the surge of deaths reported Sunday in the state.

Beshear said at least 13 percent of cases reported in Kentucky have been nursing home residents.

Of the 273 new cases, there were 33 patients who were residents of nursing homes and eight more who were staffers, he said.

Beshear insisted Sunday he wouldn’t budge yet on easing lockdown restrictions despite the calls from protesters, according to the newspaper.

“We’re not in the 14 days of decreasing under the White House guidelines to do certain things,” Beshear said.
Modify message



[Edited on 4/21/2020 by stormyrider]


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 01:15 PM

Things are getting weird. A health crisis and building civil unrest.


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 01:19 PM

More stories of businesses in Ohio making plans to reopen regardless of what Dewine's plans are on May 1.


cyclone88 - 4/21/2020 at 01:41 PM

The great re-open experiment has begun in some southern states:

SC allows dept stores & retailers who sell furniture, books, music, flowers, clothing/accessories, & sporting goods to open today at 20% capacity or 5 people/1,000 sf. Beaches will also open today at noon.

The questions are how many retailers will open, how many people will shop, who will police the capacity cap, & will there be a spike in cases in 14 days?

GA will allow tattoo parlors, hair, nail, & massage salons, bowling alleys, & gyms to re-open Friday with restaurants & movie theatres re-opening Monday. The governor expects to see a spike in cases but the state is "better prepared to handle it."

Questions here are how is GA & its front line workers "better prepared" given that there's no antibody test, vaccine, or treatment? The bigger question is how many Georgians are going to rush out to get a tattoo? Probably a lot of people will be rushing out to hair & nail salons. Even so, how many business owners are going to open w/o any change in preparation or treatment of the virus. The governor seems to think the risk of increased cases & health risks to medical staffs are worth the political capital he's making w/Trump.

These openings go against the recommendations of Fauci/Birx & Trump's official position. Trump's made no secret that he wants businesses open. Are these the kinds of businesses that are going to jump start the economy at the risk of lives? It's one thing for people to take the risk; it's another to expect medical workers to take that risk w/them.






stormyrider - 4/21/2020 at 02:09 PM

quote:
It's one thing for people to take the risk; it's another to expect medical workers to take that risk w/them


thank you

not to mention the other innocent people that the risk takers may expose


Rusty - 4/21/2020 at 02:58 PM

The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.


alanwoods - 4/21/2020 at 03:06 PM

quote:
Things are getting weird. A health crisis and building civil unrest.


Never say the mass media hasn't done its part...

This would have never played out the way it has were this April 2021 instead of April 2020.


pops42 - 4/21/2020 at 03:26 PM

I tend to believe the "Experts" Doctors, scientists, and those who echo their facts. not trump or his enablers, struggling to hold on to power, even if it means YOUR family and loved ones dying for their selfish actions. Hearing "Ive got a hunch" from a know nothing, pumpkin head, like trump just doesnt do it for me.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by pops42]


MartinD28 - 4/21/2020 at 04:45 PM

quote:
The local merchants (coastal Georgia) are in such a hell-fire rush to reopen for the tourists. I have supported as many (especially restaurants -take-out) as I can throughout this outbreak. If they reopen, that's on them. Personally, I plan to sit back and let the tourists fund these businesses. Middle of June (at least) before I'll sit in a room full of strangers.


I saw interviews with 3 mayors of GA - Atlanta & I believe the other 2 were Augusta & Albany? None said that the gov of GA had consulted with them on this. None were in favor of this.

I also saw the graphic of Covid cases, and the chart was stil rising, and that only takes into account the small % of tests consducted to population. I don't believe the stats even meet Trump's guidlines. The gov opens up some of the most least social distancing businesses. So politics and economics first with health somewhere a distant third on the priority chart. Glad Gov Kemp is not the gov of my state.

The gov is going to either look like a pathway leader or an utter fool. Time will tell.


2112 - 4/21/2020 at 06:43 PM

Yeah, I don't understand the choices for businesses either. Seems like small businesses and shops that don't service a ton of customers at a time should come first, especially businesses where customers would not touch all of the products while browsing. Things like craft stores, furniture stores, game stores, antique shops, etc. But movie theaters? They should be among the last businesses to reopen.


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 07:08 PM





South Carolina is trending down. Although I do not think anyone has yet to meet the full 14 day threshold. But those are guidelines, maybe some Governors will want more evidence than 2 weeks, obviously some Governors are going with less.

As has been mentioned, it really comes down to the medical capacity these states and communities within the states have. Nobody wants to willingly create more workload for health care workers and facilities, but it always comes back to what is acceptable risk? If we keep a stay at home order longer and then open up gradually, cases are going to go down and then they will rebound some when they open up. Or...they can open up gradually now rather than staying at home so the cases won't experience a drop, but maybe will stay steady instead of going down and coming back up? Maybe it's the same net result?

It's not just the Republican Governors now either.

Colorado (Polis, D) on April 27 is going to allow tattoo parlors, hair salons, one-on-one real estate home showings (no open houses), dental procedures as well as all retail may open for curbside pick-up and then allow in store retail May 1. And they are allowing child care to start back up April 27th. Naturally there are going to be certain protocols and restrictions, but these are big steps when there isn't evidence that now is the time to do it.

Colorado does not meet the criteria either:



Polis is giving his counties the ability to be more open or more restrictive as they see fit. It is going to spread, if infections reach a certain point, restrictions will have to be implemented again. How many will comply at that point?

“Now it enters the time of individual responsibility and choices,” he said. “And I trust the people of Colorado to make good choices.”


cyclone88 - 4/21/2020 at 10:10 PM

quote:
I saw interviews with 3 mayors of GA - Atlanta & I believe the other 2 were Augusta & Albany? None said that the gov of GA had consulted with them on this. None were in favor of this.

And they're speaking out urging residents to ignore re-openings because it goes against "logic" & public health expert policies. Business owners themselves are refusing to re-open, especially in Atlanta where restaurant owners cite the health & safety of their staffs & patrons as a primary reason for not re-opening. Outlets of national chains of restaurants & gyms aren't re-opening. Kemp can allow businesses to re-open to give a false sense of economic resurrection but he can't force to them do so.


crazyjoe - 4/21/2020 at 10:54 PM

Never had a clue how critical and important Bowling Alleys, Massage Parlors and Tatoo Parlors to some of our Southern States?.............get em open!!!........I will take a rain check........joe


nebish - 4/21/2020 at 11:09 PM

Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]


gina - 4/21/2020 at 11:20 PM

As of today Georgia has 19,398 KNOWN cases, 774 deaths.

Without massive testing the real numbers of infections are unknown and they can infect others. Florida is now up to 27,058 and opening those beaches will raise that number.

People need to be patient to be safe.


crazyjoe - 4/22/2020 at 12:03 AM

quote:
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]


Yes and no maybe! Colorado while in the continental us seems to me like BFE? I have been to Georgia? If indeed the case, then IMO the Dem Gov is mistaken and possibly weak kneed, ignorant etc, much like the Georgia Gov? .......Peace.......joe


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 12:05 AM

quote:
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

You pointed out the difference & it has nothing to do w/politics - GA isn't allowing counties/local leadership to make decisions based on pertinent data whereas CO is.

Data shows that African-Americans have been hit harder by COVID-19 than any other ethnicity & the mayor of Atlanta pointed to that as one reason she's concerned about re-opening there. Atlanta is more than 50% black according to 2020 census data (GA is 35% black) whereas CO is 4% black.


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 02:37 AM

quote:
quote:
Worth noting if I heard correctly, the Georgia Governor’s order does not allow any county or municipality to enact their own stronger or weaker orders.

Sure is Atlanta stays closed then people just go to the closest area that’s not. Which has always been the same with people from one state going to another. Nothing is going to be perfect here, there are going to be some problems.

If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

[Edited on 4/21/2020 by nebish]


Yes and no maybe! Colorado while in the continental us seems to me like BFE? I have been to Georgia? If indeed the case, then IMO the Dem Gov is mistaken and possibly weak kneed, ignorant etc, much like the Georgia Gov? .......Peace.......joe


Some rural areas of Colorado got extremely strict with their orders due to their lack of ICU beds and medical capacity to handle any kind of surge. When I say strict, I mean, like if you drove into a neighboring county and parked at a trailhead to cross country ski, if you did that in San Juan county, your car could be towed. And many mountain communities implemented "locals only" policy - like in Gunnison County non-residents were told to leave! Like get out, we don't care if you own property here, leave. So this is important context to understand the state has taken this very seriously, up til now. Colorado does not have better testing ability than anywhere else. And Colorado does not have 14 days of declining cases either. And yet they are relaxing. Importantly, the Governor does give local areas the ability to tailor their own restrictions as necessary, which is very good. But here, Colorado is not being led by science. It isn't just Republicans that are "rushing to open", granted, there are more of them and more Democrat Governors are in the wait-it-out cautious approach. Even though NY has opened golf courses and marinas. My Mom is in Florida. Their golf courses were open "with restrictions" to. Restrictions like 1 golfer per cart. Great and guess what, when they get out to actually golf it's a group of people bunched together like nothing is wrong. Will NY golfers be any different?

Here was my Colorado source by the way:
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/04/20/colorado-coronavirus-covid-stay-at-ho me-order-ends/
https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/coronavirus/colorado-is-planning-to-r eopen-even-without-widespread-testing-which-experts-stressed-is-necessary

Colorado is taking "calculated risk". At some point we are all going to have to do it. Right? I want it, I just worry that some are moving it too soon. There's no way to control it nationally. Governors are going to do what they want. And people within those states are going to do what they want. All we can hope is that people and businesses take the appropriate precautions. Some will. Some won't. We'll get what we get out of it.

[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 02:55 AM

quote:
quote:
If you are going to do this, I think the Colorado Governor is right to give his local county and town leaders to act appropriately.

In the meantime, media piles on Georgia for opening hair salons and tattoo parlors when Colorado is doing the same. Difference? One has a Republican Governor and one has a Democrat Governor. Always playing gotta.

You pointed out the difference & it has nothing to do w/politics - GA isn't allowing counties/local leadership to make decisions based on pertinent data whereas CO is.

Data shows that African-Americans have been hit harder by COVID-19 than any other ethnicity & the mayor of Atlanta pointed to that as one reason she's concerned about re-opening there. Atlanta is more than 50% black according to 2020 census data (GA is 35% black) whereas CO is 4% black.




You are right, I did point out the difference. And also what I didn't say is that we know Georgia is going just beyond hair salons and tattoo parlors. So it isn't quite apples to apples, but the apples and oranges are on the same shelf at least.

I will admit, I am guilty of watching too much CNN and MSNBC. I'm a news junkie and those networks are good at what they do, it appeals to me. And I just get used to seeing stories of Republicans doing things wrong and Democrats being the saviors. It's just stories about how, ok, testing...Trump touts all these tests, whatever the total accumulated total is, he boasts about it. And the media, correctly I might add, points out that it is not per capita, it isn't comparable to our population size and that of other countries. But then at the very same time, one of Rachael Maddow's favorite things to do (tongue in cheek, as in she appears to like running the numbers but I'm not saying she takes enjoyment in it), she often shows how many total cases we have in the US, a very large number on whatever night she is showing it. Then she shows all the countries of Europe to show just how many more cases we have, like cherry pick European countries and add it up and we have more cases. Know what she doesn't do? Put it in per capita context or as a % of overall population. If she did that then the US would be in line with European infections, but that doesn't fit the narrative. Per capita testing is the issue, but per capita infection rate isn't discussed. Or the meat packing outbreaks. South Dakota of course. Everyone is going to report that it is such a huge outbreak...and the Governor is a Republican who hasn't implemented stay at home orders when everyone said she should have. But while the Smithfield outbreak in Souix Falls is a lead story...similar outbreaks, like the one in Greely Colorado that infected hundreds, or the 4 meat packing plants in PA that had to close due to coronavirus infections aren't reported or mentioned with the same frequency or dare I say enthusiasm because...well some states have Republican Governors and some states have Democrat Governors. And some media outlets, some journalists and some opinion news "entertainers" have leanings and bias one way or the other.

It's fine. I watch it. I enjoy the programs. I just see stuff like that and it comes across in some of the things I post here.

So when Debra Birx gets asked tattoo parlors or hair dressers reopening, she is asked about it related to Georgia. They could've just asked about those businesses in general and her feelings on that, but no they said it about Georgia, as if Georgia is the only state doing this. Point being Georgia has a stupid Republican Governor and the other states, well they might have a smart Democrat Governor.

That is all.

Your point about risk groups among certain populations and the increased vulnerability they have to this virus is worrisome. Colorado may only have 4% black population, but they have a 22% Hispanic population. Hispanics in NYC made up 34% of the deaths (higher than blacks). So Colorado has vulnerable populations too.


[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 04:15 AM

quote:
So when Debra Birx gets asked tattoo parlors or hair dressers reopening, she is asked about it related to Georgia. They could've just asked about those businesses in general and her feelings on that, but no they said it about Georgia, as if Georgia is the only state doing this. Point being Georgia has a stupid Republican Governor and the other states, well they might have a smart Democrat Governor.

I don't own a TV so don't watch any of the interview shows & I limit my news reading to twice/day. You have much broader knowledge as to specific reporters, questions asked, & media bias so I defer to you on that.

I do think the media misses fundamental questions. For example, I didn't see any analysis of the demand side of re-opening. Sure, a governor can say certain businesses can re-open but that doesn't mean the business owners & patrons are going to make it happen. Models from China show how the virus is transmitted in restaurants from one table to people 3 tables away. Restauranteurs are saying no way are they re-opening w/o testing for staff & patrons. Salons, spas, & tat shops require close contact - the opposite of the social distancing we know has flattened the curve. Not all business owners are willing to expose their staff or patrons to that. More importantly, how many customers need a manicure, tat, or restaurant meal so as to risk getting a deadly virus & passing it on? So how big a deal is it that a governor allows re-opening of some businesses?

The biggest question to me is why those businesses? If the point is to jump start the economy, those businesses are unlikely to have a big impact.


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 12:53 PM

You've correctly identified one of my flaws, watching TV! We all have vices.

You are right in that some or even most of these businesses who do open are going to have low level sales and activity. It's not going to Have much of an impact from a tax revenue aspect for the states either. Some of these self employed business owners say they have no money and for all the safety nets and aid either can't access or don't qualify. I've heard some call into our local radio show. People say they are dying financially. They might not care their income is going to be a fraction of what normal is. Right now it is zero.


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 01:20 PM

I did see that restaurant diagram yesterday of how a Chinese family infected other diners.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/health/airflow-coronavirus-restaurants.h tml

One thing I found interesting though is none of the 8 servers working the room got infected.

And the only ones who did get infected were immediately next to the seeders' table.

Clearly there is risk...there is some risk in the currently permitted activities under stay home order. Risk is going to increase as activity increases.

It might give some optimism though that by removing tables and spacing customers apart it reduces that otherwise increased risk, again since in the example only close tables got infected and there were a total of 81 other people (including the 8 workers) in the room that day who didn't get infected. And given the people at table A may've infected themselves before entering the restaurant, still 5 people got it. Will precautions restaurants take be enough? Will customers go? Will servers want to work? Would I go? I would consider eating at a large outdoor patio with spaced apart tables. But not now, not soon, at some point I will. Just have to weigh the risk and make a judgement.


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 01:44 PM

quote:
You've correctly identified one of my flaws, watching TV! We all have vices.

You are right in that some or even most of these businesses who do open are going to have low level sales and activity. It's not going to Have much of an impact from a tax revenue aspect for the states either. Some of these self employed business owners say they have no money and for all the safety nets and aid either can't access or don't qualify. I've heard some call into our local radio show. People say they are dying financially. They might not care their income is going to be a fraction of what normal is. Right now it is zero.

Watching TV isn't a vice. You're probably one of the best-informed posters. I've just always been a BBC-NPR/newspaper person.

The updates re COVID-19 programs from the bar association I get say employee relief is working & includes workers who normally wouldn't qualify for unemployment benefits. The relief programs for the businesses themselves aren't as successful.

From the interviews I've read & granted it's a small sample, business owners of the type allowed to open have expressed more concerns about risk than money. Most say their employees are covered through one of the many programs & have income through July 31. They're more concerned that there's no testing for who might be contagious & have to shut down in days or weeks so they'd rather maintain the status quo. They also have start-up costs that they don't want to see evaporate if they have to close again IF they can even get supplies. Some have just said they can't give a manicure, pedicure, or massage & be 6' away from their client & they know social distancing is what's saved us. Retailers would just be selling off current inventory as orders for summer/fall merchandise haven't been placed or have been cancelled. In cities like Atlanta, major department stores aren't going to re-open unless the headquarters opens stores nationwide; Neiman Marcus is set to file for bankruptcy this week (less to do w/COVID-19 than overleveraging).

https://atlanta.eater.com/2020/4/21/21228934/atlanta-restaurant-owners-reac t-reopening-dining-rooms-covid19

https://www.11alive.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/businesses-reopen-c losed-plaza-theatre-theater-theaters-cuttz-barber-chris-escobar-jayln-sizem ore-coronavirus-covid/85-298dc845-a4a3-4b5a-86d6-bfeb13910766

The flip side is small businesses along the GA coast that are eager to open for tourists as Rusty mentioned.

When I said these types of businesses aren't going to give the economic boost that Trump craves, I meant the stock market. A tee shirt shop on the beach & a tat parlor in Atlanta aren't making a dent there.


Chain - 4/22/2020 at 02:32 PM

Up here in the Watertown, NY area a local grocery store chain of some size and prominence was the location for volunteer anti-body testing yesterday. Public Health officials randomly asked patrons as they entered the store if they would like to volunteer to be tested.

I don't know the exact number, but the local news outlet that reported it and filmed some of the folks doing the testing i believe indicated the health officials goal was a sample size of 1,000 tests. There appeared to be lines of people waiting to take the test.

One thing I'm sure we're all witnessing beyond the death and sickness and economic destruction is the coming together by a lot of people to fight this pandemic. It's encouraging to me and I'm sure many others out there too....And it's not lip service on my part, I really mean it.


BrerRabbit - 4/22/2020 at 06:33 PM

quote:
If you have a heart attack NY State says f’em, let ‘em die


"F'em let em die" - not a helpful or constructive view of an overwhelmed medical community doing their very best.

Anyway, NY has rescinded the order.

NY rescinds do-not-resuscitate guideline during coronavirus pandemic
“This guidance, proposed by physician leaders of the EMS Regional Medical Control Systems and the State Advisory Council — in accordance with American Heart Association guidance and based on standards recommended by the American College of Emergency Physicians and adopted in multiple other states — was issued April 17, 2020 at the recommendation of the Bureau of Emergency Medical Services, and reflected nationally recognized minimum standards. However, they don’t reflect New York’s standards and for that reason DOH commissioner Dr. Howard Zucker has ordered them to be rescinded," the statement said.


https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus/2020/04/ny-rescinds-do-not-resuscitate -guideline-during-coronavirus-pandemic.html

[Edited on 4/22/2020 by BrerRabbit]


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 07:12 PM

quote:
NY rescinds do-not-resuscitate guideline during coronavirus pandemic


Thank you for providing accurate information. Not sure why that particular topic was posted on this thread other than trolling. It has nothing to do w/states re-opening certain businesses.


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 07:23 PM

The model used by Trump's experts indicates that no state should open before May 1 & most should wait longer. Specifically, based on current cases, Georgia shouldn't re-open until June 19, South Carolina June 5, & Colorado May 25. The model is based on the assumption states will have measures in place - aggressive testing, contact tracing, isolation, limits on the size of gatherings. If states don't have those protections in pace, a resurgence of cases is projected.

Projections for every state:
http://www.healthdata.org/covid/updates


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 10:28 PM

It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I'm not asserting that the states must follow the White House guidelines to a T in opening, but essentially, no state planning on opening is following the White House guidelines.


[Edited on 4/22/2020 by nebish]


BrerRabbit - 4/22/2020 at 10:29 PM

quote:
Responsible States already have the measures in place per the guidelines and are respecting their citizens civil rights.
Both can be done; something States run by democrats fail to understand.


Then why are you bellyaching about a pandemic related civil rights violation, the Idaho playground incident, in Republican Idaho?


[Edited on 4/22/2020 by BrerRabbit]


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 10:56 PM

Pence just said something to the effect "the best thing you can do to reopen America is to keep doing what you are doing". And he's right. A bunch of states are close and getting close. It's what Trump should've been saying.


cyclone88 - 4/22/2020 at 11:18 PM

quote:
It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I linked the IHME model projected dates in my post. They were last updated yesterday.

Trump just said that he told the GA governor that he strongly disagreed w/his decision to open certain facilities, which are in violation of the phase one guidelines based in part on the IHME model. "It's just too soon. I think it's too soon."


nebish - 4/22/2020 at 11:27 PM

quote:
quote:
It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I linked the IHME model projected dates in my post. They were last updated yesterday.

Trump just said that he told the GA governor that he strongly disagreed w/his decision to open certain facilities, which are in violation of the phase one guidelines based in part on the IHME model. "It's just too soon. I think it's too soon."



Yes and thank you. Rule of thumb, never listen to ABBGMTTB.

Would be nice option if members here who start a thread could moderate their own thread and remove trolling posts.

Trump hinted that yesterday he was going to be speaking the Georgia governor. That is a fairly big step for Trump to reprimand a fellow Republican Governor. Have to think some members of the team got to him on that. The task force team tries to keep Trump centered, sometimes it works.


MartinD28 - 4/23/2020 at 12:18 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
It's not crap, it is the IHME model right? That is the model the White House and it's task force team often cites and uses. And the IHME model has been the most reliable in offering some estimates and guidance.

I linked the IHME model projected dates in my post. They were last updated yesterday.

Trump just said that he told the GA governor that he strongly disagreed w/his decision to open certain facilities, which are in violation of the phase one guidelines based in part on the IHME model. "It's just too soon. I think it's too soon."



Yes and thank you. Rule of thumb, never listen to ABBGMTTB.

Would be nice option if members here who start a thread could moderate their own thread and remove trolling posts.

Trump hinted that yesterday he was going to be speaking the Georgia governor. That is a fairly big step for Trump to reprimand a fellow Republican Governor. Have to think some members of the team got to him on that. The task force team tries to keep Trump centered, sometimes it works.


You beat me to it. You are correct. No doubt that Fauci or others probably got through to MAGA guy. Have no doubt that left to his own, Trump would have green lighted Kemp in GA for reopening. He's been toutiing the gov in last few days for all the good things the gov does...in usual Trump dialog. Reality set in, and the light bulb went off that if things go badly & Trump's been backing this effort, then it makes Trump look bad or worse than he already looks.

Think about this. MAGA prez has done nothing to dissuade those red hats protesting at state capitals. He's even given them cover. Even said they are practicing social distancing which pictures, in many instance show to be false. So how does Trump balance supporting protests but now advising Gov Kemp not to move forward? MAGA prez wants it both ways.


cyclone88 - 4/23/2020 at 12:25 AM

quote:
Trump hinted that yesterday he was going to be speaking the Georgia governor. That is a fairly big step for Trump to reprimand a fellow Republican Governor. Have to think some members of the team got to him on that. The task force team tries to keep Trump centered, sometimes it works.


Yes, it works sometimes. Sometimes, it doesn't. Now that controlled studies of chloroquine have progressed to the point where some have been halted due to cardiac problems in patients as well as inefficacy, Trump, Fox, & Dr. Oz have been silent on that "miracle drug" about which Trump had a great "feeling." Of course, that didn't stop the administration from firing the doctor responsible for drug allocation yesterday for not making the unproven chloroquine widely available. He announced he'll be firing a whistleblower complaint this week.

The man simply can't stand to be proven wrong. If he'd just not spew nonsense that can easily be contradicted, he'd be better off - we all would be. It's incredible to see such misplaced vindictiveness & vengeance in an adult man much less POTUS.






Rusty - 4/23/2020 at 01:08 AM

Meanwhile, in the state of Georgia ... Lindsey Graham and even Donald Trump start to sound like the voice of reason. It's early, but when they make the movie - I say that Will Ferrell plays Brian Kemp. But only because Don Knotts is deceased.


nebish - 4/23/2020 at 03:34 AM

quote:
I say that Will Ferrell plays Brian Kemp.


That made me laugh just picturing it!


stormyrider - 4/23/2020 at 12:52 PM

In NH, there was a daily increase of about 50 documented cases per day
Late last week there were protests at the state Capitol to re open the state (we have a Republican Governor, fwiw)
From the photos, people were NOT adhering to distancing recomendations

Today we had 98 new cases, almost double the prior daily average.

maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not

regardless, too soon to relax restrictions


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 01:33 AM

Chain mentioned NY's random antibody test a few posts back, here's a story:


quote:

One in five who were tested for antibodies in New York City had them.

About 21 percent of about 1,300 people in New York City who were screened for virus antibodies tested positive, Governor Andrew M. Cuomo said on Thursday.

The results come from a state program that randomly tested 3,000 supermarket customers across New York State this week. Nearly 14 percent of those tests came back positive, he said.

If those numbers translate to the true incidence of the virus, they would mean that more than 1.7 million people in New York City, and more than 2.4 million people statewide, have already been infected. These numbers are far greater than the 250,000 confirmed cases of the virus itself that the state has recorded.

Hours before Mr. Cuomo’s presentation, a top New York City health official cautioned against making too much of the usefulness of the test results in making critical decisions about social distancing and reopening the economy, particularly in identifying immunity. The official said the tests “may produce false negative or false positive results,” pointing to “significant voids” in using the science to pinpoint immunity.

Mr. Cuomo declined to speculate further on what the preliminary data might mean. He said its main use would to provide a baseline for tracking changes in the infection rate. (Supermarket customers do not constitute a random sample of the population.)

By the time New York City confirmed its first case on March 1, thousands of infections were already silently spreading through the city, according to a model of the disease by researchers at Northeastern University.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/23/us/coronavirus-live-news-coverage.html#l ink-5ac27645



Hard to make too much of this, in fact we are warned not to make too much of it. If the tests were accurate it certainly sheds new light on how many people may've already been touched by this virus which then does effect all the other metrics on death and hospitalization ratios.


Sang - 4/24/2020 at 03:51 AM

Yet you just bang the same tiresome drum ... with lies, of course


stormyrider - 4/24/2020 at 11:13 AM

Both GOP and Dem governors have said there isn’t enough testing
I’m on the front lines of a state with a GOP Governor and we don’t have enough tests. In fact, we have the least per capital in all of NE. We can’t get the supplies.

Fauci said we don’t have enough tests

There isn’t enough testing done. We have the desire and mechanics to do it. There are not enough materials

Fact

[Edited on 4/24/2020 by stormyrider]


Rusty - 4/24/2020 at 12:42 PM

Alright! So, here in Georgia you can finally get that tattoo, haircut and even a massage before heading out to bowl or watch a movie! I'm thinking about hitting a few of these establishments today, as I have never seen 6' long scissors or tattoo needles ... or a masseuse with 6' long arms! Thank you, Governor Simp!


alanwoods - 4/24/2020 at 12:44 PM

In Tennessee:

https://www.wate.com/news/tennessee/list-which-tennessee-state-parks-will-r eopen-april-24/

https://www.wate.com/news/blount-county-restaurant-owners-anticipate-reopen ing-half-capacity-after-covid-19-restrictions/

Too soon?

In Blount County, where the article references, there have been 2 new cases since the 9th. (one new one each of the last two days) The State Parks all being closed was extreme to begin with. The Great Smokies have been closed to all access since March 23.

Yesterday the total for all cases, including recovered, was 8,266 with highest concentrations being around the metropolitan areas of Nashville and Memphis. Knox County has had 206 cases with 29 cases currently active. There are 95 counties in Tennessee.

I think that certain areas can have restrictions eased. I realize that one shelter-in-place orders are lifted, people will start to travel and visit other areas. Being quarantined for a month or more will make you restless.

Myself, I would like to go out to dinner and go caveman on a table full of Mexican food, but I'll probably be somewhat on the "wait and see" side...


Rusty - 4/24/2020 at 12:48 PM

I hear ya, Alan. For purposes of perspective - the day after our governor made these decisions to reopen, Glynn County (home of the "Golden Isles") added 2 new CV cases and suffered its first death. Come on in! The water's fine! I'll point out that we were clean as a whistle before the annual Spring Break pilgrimage. If anybody needs me, I'll be indoors all summer.


cyclone88 - 4/24/2020 at 01:09 PM

quote:
I’m on the front lines of a state with a GOP Governor and we don’t have enough tests. In fact, we have the least per capital in all of NE. We can’t get the supplies.

There isn’t enough testing done. We have the desire and mechanics to do it. There are not enough materials

Fact

@stormy, forgive me, but I'm confused on testing. Are there 2 types of tests - 1 for diagnosis & 1 for antibodies?

When you & the other experts say not enough tests, you mean diagnostic? They exist but they're not being made fast enough or distributed? They're supplied to the hospitals directly from the manufacturer? or are they rationed by the state?

I read that hold-ups were due to a lack of cotton for nasal swabs and the wrong size vial for the sample. That seems insane.

You & your wife stay safe!


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 02:21 PM

quote:
“We’re also going to be switching over to plastic silverware and plates, so that we don’t have to touch the dirty dishes as often, we don’t have to wash their dishes, we just throw everything straight in the trash. Wipe down all the tables with sanitizer and bleach, make sure everything is cleaned after every guest, that way we can ensure a clean meal as possible for everybody,” Roberts said.


I think it's helpful our friends here post little glimpse inside their states. I know a little about some other states, but only pay close attention to Ohio. I know a little more about Colorado because I live vicariously through a few friends I have living there (great state!).

The above quote is from Alan's link. I had thought how restaurants might handle their glasses...when you get a draft beer afterwards sometimes you just see them dunk it in a tub of soapy water, dunk it in a tub of clean water before putting it drying it in a machine. Maybe the high heat of the drying machine kills virus, but would people feel comfortable this stuff is clean enough. So I can see going to more disposable plates, glasses, fork, knife and spoons. Good on one hand, not so good on another hand.


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 02:34 PM

Regarding Glynn County (Golden Isles) and 2 new cases and a death after opening, due to the incubation period and time leading to getting tested I'd be willing to bet those people were infected several days to a week or two before the opening.

There are going to be new cases when states relax and try to reopen. There are going go to be new cases if states did not relax and reopen. We have had a few grocery store employees here get infected. There is some level of business operation and activity now before opening.

The key thing is going to be with any new infections, is there a capacity in the healthcare system to accommodate new hospitalizations? 20-25% of people infected will need hospitalization. So the governors and health professionals are going to have to know what is available and monitor cases and behavior to see what is happening.

When we get reports of new cases after relaxing and opening of new cases, that alone should not dictate whether or not relaxed status and partial openings get suspended or withdrawn. It depends the point which those new infections reach that will determine what happens next. People are going to have to be responsible and careful when they go out and do things, take precautions and limit exposure to the best extent possible and be respectful others around you and your friends and family at home.


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 02:48 PM

Ohio tests are still limited, but apparently we do have enough to expand the criteria of who gets tests. Here is Ohio's priority for testing. Priority 3 is a new category they can now begin to test people from.



The availability and number of tests is only going to get better as time goes on. This week our Governor said he expects "significant" increases in testing in the coming weeks. There isn't much of antibody testing here yet, some businesses have some agencies, but there are still warnings about reliability and accuracy of the antibody tests.

The Governor had said a couple times he would release Ohio's plan for opening and guidelines for businesses yesterday. Then yesterday he said he didn't recall saying it would be yesterday and instead will be announced on Monday. Last week he said businesses should prepare for some limited opening and relaxing May 1st, but has yet to offer any details beyond that.

Ohio does have about a week's worth of declining cases and hospitalization rate is slowing. Our recent spikes are due to larger testing of prison populations.


Rusty - 4/24/2020 at 02:49 PM

quote:
Regarding Glynn County (Golden Isles) and 2 new cases and a death after opening, due to the incubation period and time leading to getting tested I'd be willing to bet those people were infected several days to a week or two before the opening. ...


Correct as rain, I'm sure you are. Just pointing out that this fire is far from extinguished.


stormyrider - 4/24/2020 at 04:22 PM

quote:
quote:
I’m on the front lines of a state with a GOP Governor and we don’t have enough tests. In fact, we have the least per capital in all of NE. We can’t get the supplies.

There isn’t enough testing done. We have the desire and mechanics to do it. There are not enough materials

Fact

@stormy, forgive me, but I'm confused on testing. Are there 2 types of tests - 1 for diagnosis & 1 for antibodies?

When you & the other experts say not enough tests, you mean diagnostic? They exist but they're not being made fast enough or distributed? They're supplied to the hospitals directly from the manufacturer? or are they rationed by the state?

I read that hold-ups were due to a lack of cotton for nasal swabs and the wrong size vial for the sample. That seems insane.

You & your wife stay safe!

There are 2 types of tests
The diagnostic test - swab, is to tell if you ARE infected
the antibody testtells if you had the disease and recovered

Both are important. The scary thing is that people can be infectious before symptoms develop or without even ever having them

The antibody test is still new and not widely available. There are many unapproved tests people are doing but I wouldn't trust them.

The diagnostic test, which is what I was referring to, as I believe was Fauci and the Governors, is available but there are not enough so we can't test enough people.
There are shortages of swabs and cartridges, depending upon where you live. We are getting our cartridges from FEMA but there aren't enough to give everyone all they need. They are giving priority to states with more cases, which is understandable but still a problem.

Thanks


cyclone88 - 4/24/2020 at 05:05 PM

quote:
The antibody test is still new and not widely available. There are many unapproved tests people are doing but I wouldn't trust them.

The diagnostic test, which is what I was referring to, as I believe was Fauci and the Governors, is available but there are not enough so we can't test enough people. There are shortages of swabs and cartridges, depending upon where you live. We are getting our cartridges from FEMA but there aren't enough to give everyone all they need. They are giving priority to states with more cases, which is understandable but still a problem.


Got it, thanks. States are thinking about opening up even though they don't have enough diagnostic tests to determine if people - asymptomatic or not - have it. Makes no sense.

My confusion came from Cuomo's announcement of an antibody test developed in NY & tested on grocery store shoppers throughout the state that really isn't useful yet.


Sang - 4/24/2020 at 05:15 PM

They are ramping up testing in Illinois, opening 4 sites for people to sit in line in their cars and get tested. Supposed to be for first responders, 65 and older, people showing symptoms and people under 65 with pre-existing conditions. They eventually will be able to do about 2900 per day total at these sites. The state capacity for processing the tests is around 10,000 per day... which they haven't hit yet.

Now that they are doing more testing, our number of positive for covid have been going up a lot - from 1000 per day to over 2000 per day....


nebish - 4/24/2020 at 08:51 PM

Ohio today said that with Thermo Fisher being approved by the FDA to make reagent and a Cleveland dental product manufacturer will make swabs...Ohio will go from almost 4000 a day testing ability to 22,000 by May 27th. That must be what Governor Dewine meant earlier in saying "significant" increase in testing.

He also said that Ohio has a plan for contact tracing that will involve 1750 existing health care workers, volunteers and med school students.

Monday he is announcing plans for allowing some businesses to open. I will be very curious to hear both the justifications and the guidelines. Businesses not following guidelines can be reported to the department of health, as in if an employee or customer does not feel safe, the business will have to comply or will not be allowed to stay open.

Ohio case count appears to have peaked on 4/19 at 1380 (driven by large prison population tests) (4/19 was exactly when IHME had predicted we would peak in early April although the case count at the peak was way off). Since the peak our new case count this week has been 1317, 806, 392, 577 and 475. Hospitalizations are down a little, but more of a sustained plateau. 79% of Ohio's deaths are white, 17% are black. 47% of Ohio's deaths are 80 and older, 28% are aged 70-79. Ohio reports probable deaths as well as confirmed deaths in the total.


crazyjoe - 4/27/2020 at 03:22 PM

Another example of Captain Sh!t Bag doing all he can to make sure and get his donors (err I mean small public businesses) all the monies that were meant for them??............joe

One Trump Donor's Hotel Companies Got $96. 1 Million Meant for Small Businesses

https://flip.it/PbZj9F


crazyjoe - 4/27/2020 at 04:41 PM

quote:
quote:
Another example of Captain Sh!t Bag doing all he can to make sure and get his donors (err I mean small public businesses) all the monies that were meant for them??............joe

One Trump Donor's Hotel Companies Got $96. 1 Million Meant for Small Businesses

https://flip.it/PbZj9F



President Trump and his administration did not write the bill, Congress wrote it.




I don't know ABBGMTTB, just don't seem like an upstanding and honest guy to me? I don't trust him, as he doesn't seem trustworthy, I read a little piece that explained why folks who still support Trump are even more mentally misguided and unstable than Trump himself!?? Obama/ Clinton Nov. 2020!!!.............Peace........joe


BrerRabbit - 4/27/2020 at 05:47 PM

quote:
I don't know ABBGMTTB, just don't seem like an upstanding and honest guy to me?


ABBGMTTBMuleman1994 certainly is not helping his side or his cause - he is an embarrassment to his team. I have never seen one conservative poster here acknowledge his presence. I certainly would not want a snake in the grass like that in my company.


BrerRabbit - 4/27/2020 at 09:25 PM

quote:
I don't give a sh!t what you think.


Then why are you so bent on brainwashing us?


BrerRabbit - 4/27/2020 at 09:33 PM

^ Escalating


porkchopbob - 4/27/2020 at 09:55 PM

quote:
Top 10 States/Governors slowest to test for coronavirus:

New York Cuomo – (D)
New Jersey Murphy – (D)
Washington Inslee – (D)
California Newsom – (D)
Oregon Brown – (D)
Illinois Pritzker (D)
Michigan Whitmer (D)
Louisiana Edwards (D)
Minnesota Walz – (D)
Maryland Hogan – (R)

Top 9 of 10 failure Governors are Democrats.



"Slowest"? How is that quantified? Especially considering many of those states were hit early and hardest, this doesn't really qualify as a legit stat.


BrerRabbit - 4/27/2020 at 10:36 PM

quote:
"brainwashing" idiots is a waste of time.
It implies an intellect which is obviously absent.


If you are not trying to brainwash us idiots, then who are you talking to here?

The logical answer is you are not talking to anyone here but are using this board to jam the web with disinfo that will come up in Google searches.


[Edited on 4/27/2020 by BrerRabbit]


piacere - 4/27/2020 at 11:31 PM

quote:
Top 10 States/Governors slowest to test for coronavirus:

New York Cuomo – (D)
New Jersey Murphy – (D)
Washington Inslee – (D)
California Newsom – (D)
Oregon Brown – (D)
Illinois Pritzker (D)
Michigan Whitmer (D)
Louisiana Edwards (D)
Minnesota Walz – (D)
Maryland Hogan – (R)

Top 9 of 10 failure Governors are Democrats.



There are exceptions. Here in RI, governor Raimondo has an 86% approval rating for her handling of this situation and RI is, comparatively and per capita, doing better than most states.

Democrat.


BrerRabbit - 4/27/2020 at 11:34 PM

Oregon is doing great too - this thing hit the PacNW first, we are surfin the curl, we got this.


2112 - 4/28/2020 at 12:40 AM

quote:
quote:
Top 10 States/Governors slowest to test for coronavirus:

New York Cuomo – (D)
New Jersey Murphy – (D)
Washington Inslee – (D)
California Newsom – (D)
Oregon Brown – (D)
Illinois Pritzker (D)
Michigan Whitmer (D)
Louisiana Edwards (D)
Minnesota Walz – (D)
Maryland Hogan – (R)

Top 9 of 10 failure Governors are Democrats.



"Slowest"? How is that quantified? Especially considering many of those states were hit early and hardest, this doesn't really qualify as a legit stat.


I'd like to see how that is quantified as well.


nebish - 4/28/2020 at 02:30 AM

quote:
quote:
"brainwashing" idiots is a waste of time.
It implies an intellect which is obviously absent.


If you are not trying to brainwash us idiots, then who are you talking to here?

The logical answer is you are not talking to anyone here but are using this board to jam the web with disinfo that will come up in Google searches.


[Edited on 4/27/2020 by BrerRabbit]


If there were more of us that liked to talk about stuff it would be easier to ignore those who do not want constructive conversation. But when you have 6-10 people (if that many) who engage and a couple trouble makers, the trouble makers unfortunately are going to have influence on the threads.


nebish - 4/28/2020 at 02:45 AM

I have a good feeling about Ohio's guidelines released today.

First, Ohio has laid out how testing is going to triple over the next month. They have a plan for almost 1800 contract tracers. And Ohio has hospital capacity, plenty of it. PPE is not ideal, but good enough to allow non-overnight elective surgery. Businesses will be required to have employees where masks. General public strongly encouraged to do so, governor says they have no legal authority to mandate population wears masks. Phased in approach May 1, May 5 and then on so on with evaluation.

Ohio does have a good downward trajectory of cases, although not 14 days yet, we are at a week. Governor looks at 5 day average comparing daily totals to the 5 day average. Hospitalizations still flat.

I think it is time in Ohio. The opening is going to be slow unlike some other states. And Ohio has evidence of declining case count, unlike other states. Ohio has also identified companies within the state that are FDA approved to produce swabs and reagent to greatly expand testing over this upcoming month. Many people are not happy, some people, some Republicans want it all open now. Governor has compromised, taking a 'conservative' approach. He's going slow and cautious still. I think it is right.

There will be increase in cases. A relatively small percentage will seek medical care. There will be new testing and contact tracing. Businesses have a strict guidance or health department or when applicable law enforcement can be called to enforce.

We need to stop hiding from the virus and start dealing with it. I have worn a mask 4 times and gloves once out in public. People need to be responsible. We have to figure it out, it is still all uncharted territory. Be smart, be safe, even if you don't have it act like you do to protect everyone you encounter.


BIGV - 4/28/2020 at 03:08 AM

quote:
We need to stop hiding from the virus and start dealing with it.


X2


piacere - 4/28/2020 at 02:14 PM

quote:
quote:
We need to stop hiding from the virus and start dealing with it.


Just what are you saying here?


cyclone88 - 4/28/2020 at 02:41 PM

I've posed this question before in regard to jump-starting the economy, but now Trump is pushing school re-opening seemingly for its own sake. I don't have kids so am not directly affected. I just keep wondering what re-opening the schools at this late date accomplishes. Public schools have 4-6 more weeks at most after a re-open plan is devised. Re-opening requires a massive undertaking re staggering schedules, distancing, cleaning & disinfecting daily, & questions about cafeterias, auditoriums, etc. Students are probably going to be at all stages of learning, some having kept up w/online classes & some not & some in between. For seniors, some have already been told they've met requirements for graduation so further classroom instruction isn't needed. The big question is why expose these kids, teachers, administrators, & staff to each other who in turn, may expose their families.

Is this just optics? "Hey, look, the schools are open; we're back to normal" when we know testing isn't available for everyone in every state. How many households are going to depend on an 8 yr old's social distancing skills? Teachers can't police every kid every minute.

Is there some benefit that I'm missing (other than freeing up parents to possibly return to work)?


MartinD28 - 4/28/2020 at 03:26 PM

quote:
I've posed this question before in regard to jump-starting the economy, but now Trump is pushing school re-opening seemingly for its own sake. I don't have kids so am not directly affected. I just keep wondering what re-opening the schools at this late date accomplishes. Public schools have 4-6 more weeks at most after a re-open plan is devised. Re-opening requires a massive undertaking re staggering schedules, distancing, cleaning & disinfecting daily, & questions about cafeterias, auditoriums, etc. Students are probably going to be at all stages of learning, some having kept up w/online classes & some not & some in between. For seniors, some have already been told they've met requirements for graduation so further classroom instruction isn't needed. The big question is why expose these kids, teachers, administrators, & staff to each other who in turn, may expose their families.

Is this just optics? "Hey, look, the schools are open; we're back to normal" when we know testing isn't available for everyone in every state. How many households are going to depend on an 8 yr old's social distancing skills? Teachers can't police every kid every minute.

Is there some benefit that I'm missing (other than freeing up parents to possibly return to work)?


I think your question is the answer. Is there any doubt that almost everything Trump says or does is about optics for one person - himself? The safety factors and practical implications you listed are spot on. Returning kids to schools this late in the year is impractical and dangerous.


nebish - 4/28/2020 at 03:32 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
We need to stop hiding from the virus and start dealing with it.


Just what are you saying here?


Dealing was a bad word choice. I should've said living or adapting with it.

This virus is going to be with us this summer, this fall, next winter. Maybe there will be a vaccine, maybe there won't be. Antivirals, therapeutics, secondary uses of existing medicines...whatever they come up with until the medical researchers figure out how to treat this virus, we can't continue to hide from it and just wait it out.

There are lots of different things going on in lots of different states. I'm in Ohio. As I've said, I think some of these states are moving too fast and going too far off the bat. But I don't know all of their detail and data. I was a little worried when our Governor Mike Dewine said over a week ago that we would start opening up May 1 because the data at that time didn't support it. Since that time, our daily case count, and our rolling 5 day average case count is better. By and large Ohioans have done what was asked of us for 6 weeks. We've made progress great in limiting spread, building up resources and learned what precautions to take. I think for us, now is the right to time start trying to live with the threat of infection. There are parts of the Ohio economy that never stopped, construction for instance and welders/fabricators...3 of my good friends in these fields have been going to work every day, honestly they say their Monday - Friday lives aren't any different yet so many others are told to stay away, stay home, don't see anyone. It's time to loose it up for more activity in a responsible way.

Still limit gatherings, wear face coverings, no dining in restaurants, no bowling...this stuff is going to be gradual. You have to walk before you run. It's time to start walking a little. Like when you get injured, maybe you broke your ankle or something, you have to stay off it a while, then you can start on therapy. Maybe this is the therapy phase. There can be set backs, but the goal is to walk normally again. It takes a while to do that.

Other states may vary. But clearly, whether some states or some countries are ready for this or not, it is happening in one form or another. We need to adapt to living with this virus rather than avoiding any and all potential contact with society and life.


piacere - 4/28/2020 at 03:50 PM

Thanks for clarifying that with your first sentence. Had "dealing" remained, there are, as I'm sure you and everyone else here know, many messed up ways some people are "dealing" with this. Some are pretty sad.
Prior to the post from you that I quoted, I read about that nurse from NY Presbyterian Hospital in Manhattan, Lorna Breen, head of emergency department. Absolutely broke my heart. She couldn't deal with it...or live with it.

[Edited on 4/28/2020 by piacere]

[Edited on 4/28/2020 by piacere]


Bhawk - 4/28/2020 at 04:27 PM

As previously mentioned, I run Procurement for a major health system. I’ve never experienced anything like I have in my life like the last 6-8 weeks. I’d love to get a good night’s sleep sometime soon. It’s been one thing to read the news and another thing to be in the middle of it. The actual behind the scenes truth in regards to the involvement of states vs Feds has been fascinating and extremely frustrating.

Open back up? Sure. Give it a shot. Hope cases don’t skyrocket. The point of the lockdowns was to keep the burden off the healthcare system, a system that is in no way designed to handle a 1,000 sick people going to the ED at the same time.

In the end it doesn’t matter. Americans won’t listen anyway. There’s always going to be people ignoring the advice and if there’s a vaccine developed, there will be plenty that will refuse it.

I’ll say one thing for myself throughout all this...my view of the political paradigm has been permanently altered.


Rusty - 4/28/2020 at 04:35 PM

Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.


nebish - 4/28/2020 at 05:04 PM

quote:
Thanks for clarifying that with your first sentence. Had "dealing" remained, there are, as I'm sure you and everyone else here know, many messed up ways some people are "dealing" with this. Some are pretty sad.
Prior to the post from you that I quoted, I read about that nurse from NY Presbyterian Hospital in Manhattan, Lorna Breen, head of emergency department. Absolutely broke my heart. She couldn't deal with it...or live with it.

[Edited on 4/28/2020 by piacere]

[Edited on 4/28/2020 by piacere]


Yes, I do understand how that may've come across and that was not how I intended it.

Dr Lorna Breen is just so tragic. It is like war, health care employees and doctors are on the front lines. And many are and will experience PTSD, some forever unfortunately.

There are friends in health care among our forum. Some have friends or family that are doctors or nurses or aids, administrators. My sister-in-law is a nurse. I haven't had much chance to talk to her. Just normal people asked to do extraordinary things - and many places are just pressure packed, no relief, they take it home with them.

To Bhawk's point, the stay at home was to not exceed or overwhelm hospitals and in most places it has worked. Still has been a personal cost and burden for those who have had to help those who are sick. It is also why you can't just throw it all open now without precautions because that would negate the work that has been done and continue to wear on those that have already been stretched thin or exceed their ability to keep dealing with it all.

I see people on the beaches in California or Florida and it makes me mad. Everyone has a responsibility, but not everyone sees it that way. You can't get everyone to think the same. Maybe these local authorities that control the public beaches need to restrict access. There are parking lots and beach access that could be monitored, maybe you close parking lots, implement a shuttle program, do a head count for those entering the beach and close it when a certain number is listed. I don't know, our state doesn't have that problem.

If we do it right, we can relax some of our restrictions, open some businesses and still not overwhelm the hospitals. There certainly is going to still be a demand on those facilities and those people to treat new cases. I think it is about trying to manage the new cases all while relaxing restrictions. It is a balance. Since so many people never agree on how to do things I'm sure we'll probably fvck it up and make things worse. But really, it doesn't have to be that way. I'll do my part, what other people is out of my control. Governors and authorities can't be expected to keep a lid on this forever, or even much longer. More and more people are going to disobey after so long. If they can relax now there's a chance to still get people to listen. If people are just kept shuttered in longer and longer I see people just starting to do whatever they want when they want. This is just my point of view, the people I know are still willing to follow guidelines, but we can't keep doing everything we've been doing. If my state were still at peak or increasing cases, I would agree the timing is wrong. Eventually you get to a point where you have to try it, some will make the right call and some might make the wrong ones. You can't always know what is right or wrong until after you do it.


[Edited on 4/28/2020 by nebish]


MartinD28 - 4/28/2020 at 05:41 PM

quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.




100% on point!


piacere - 4/28/2020 at 06:32 PM

quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.




Yeah. I sometimes wonder if, because we're bombarded with numbers, we get desensitized and numb to the story behind the numbers. Occasionally one grabs you by the throat, Sandy Hook for example, that one hurt us all but generally, let's face it, we've got things to do (sarcasm intended). This woman though, this one knocked the stuffing out of me. Like you said, the park? the beach? a concert? You gotta be kidding me.


gina - 4/28/2020 at 09:49 PM

quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.




It's a war time stress level situation. She reportedly told her family patients would die in the ambulances before they even got into the E.R. Doctors like everyone else have certain expectations, they want to help people and save people, when they can't the result is stress and conflict. In a war zone there's no time to deal with your emotions, you just have to function. It's sad and tragic what happened to her.

Anyone else in a situation like that should walk away. Quit the job. Get sleep, eat right and look at other options for work.

I worked in the 168th Street hospital for 5 years. Management changes, budget cuts because of federal Medicaid cuts, layoffs, 1199 contract crises, capital budget expenditures freezes when o.r. equipment was needed etc.etc. Two years after I was on the verge of 3 new ulcers, I left. It was a beautiful day, I felt good and I knew if I remained there I would be over-extended trying to fix a program that needed fixing or help with a new program startup. I finally realized I did enough and I was not sacrificing my health anymore for any programs or people. I did work in another hospital for 2 years and then left to pursue private sector work.

People can get so caught up in their jobs, it can be bad for them. You have to work to live, but living making work the most important thing in your life is not right. Doctors are God's hands but they are not God. He decides who lives and who dies and when and how. When Doctors see patients recover they get a sense that they saved them. In a crisis when so many die, this takes a heavy toll on them.

The hospitals need to stop demanding crisis ridden Doctors and Nurses work too many hours. An average nurse is working 12 hrs. On. I know one who works 3 twelve hour days back to back on a covid unit. If I were running it I would say no more than 9 hours five days a week and they must take a lunch break. Hospitals have to stop treating their Doctors and Nurses like horses in a race, just whip them and they'll do more.

There will be more waves of Covid-19. One researcher said 3 more waves. In a 24 hour day there should be 3 Doctors and 3 nurses for a 24 shift. Start there, then work on the rest of it. I cannot even imagine what the resident- Doctors are going thru.









[Edited on 4/28/2020 by gina]


Rusty - 4/28/2020 at 10:30 PM

Doctors in places like New York City ... and Albany, GA are basically attempting to make "human levees" of themselves - trying to hold back billions and billions of gallons of rushing flood waters in the form of coronavirus patients. The current situation makes the military war-time madness (depicted in films like MASH) seem like a tea party at times.

Gina - good on you for years of service towards others! Walking away seems like a plan. I'll never second-guess any medical professional who says that they feel stress.


cyclone88 - 4/29/2020 at 12:58 AM

quote:
quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.


100% on point!


Meanwhile, Pence is wandering around Mayo without a mask even though it's his administration's guidelines & Mayo's hospital policy - talking to doctors & elbow bumping a patient giving plasma. Why isn't he distancing & wearing a mask? Because he's the VP & gets tested regularly. Huh? What's the downside of wearing one? What about lead by example? What if he contracted the virus after his last test? Mayo offered him one & he said no, thanks.


Rusty - 4/29/2020 at 03:30 PM

Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE. Something neither he nor his boss is very big on. Of course, Pence obviously opts for a mask that covers the entire face - including eyes. I suppose it would've been difficult for folks to be inspired if they couldn't see his face.


cyclone88 - 4/29/2020 at 03:39 PM

quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.


For an administration focused on optics, this was a chance for the VP/COVID19 Task Force Director to wear a mask according to the administration's own guidelines plus the hospital's policy & practice distancing. There's no downside at all. It's not like they couldn't use some good PR about now.


OriginalGoober - 4/29/2020 at 03:56 PM

quote:
quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.


For an administration focused on optics, this was a chance for the VP/COVID19 Task Force Director to wear a mask according to the administration's own guidelines plus the hospital's policy & practice distancing. There's no downside at all. It's not like they couldn't use some good PR about now.


Its no different from Obama visiting the Gulf beaches swept clean of tar balls during the BP Oil spill crisis. Its about optics. Obama's gang wanted the public to believe that things weren't so bad. I guess the same applies here. instead of tar balls its covid patients.


PhotoRon286 - 4/29/2020 at 04:08 PM

quote:
Meanwhile, we lose a Doctor in New York. This brave and dedicated Doctor not only treated many patients, she suffered the disease herself. We whine about not being able to go to the park, we bitch because an upcoming show was cancelled ... pretty small stuff, wouldn't you say?

This poor woman had obviously just exceeded her personal stress limits by many miles. Suicide or not, she IS a hero in this mess. I've heard some real heart-breaking stories throughout all this ... but this one just about sinks my spirit.




My son is an EMT in Syracuse.

He left yesterday morning for a three week assignment in NYC.

I hope he survives this and doesn't get a case of PTSD like his disabled veteran sister.


BrerRabbit - 4/29/2020 at 04:09 PM

quote:
Pence not wearing a mask while he thanked Mayo Clinic health workers, the vice president and his team–as well as Gov. Walz (D)


No doubt! Forget the Pence mask thing, minor detail. The real sick part of this is Pence THANKED A DEMOCRAT. He must be getting soft.


PhotoRon286 - 4/29/2020 at 04:11 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.


For an administration focused on optics, this was a chance for the VP/COVID19 Task Force Director to wear a mask according to the administration's own guidelines plus the hospital's policy & practice distancing. There's no downside at all. It's not like they couldn't use some good PR about now.


Its no different from Obama visiting the Gulf beaches swept clean of tar balls during the BP Oil spill crisis. Its about optics. Obama's gang wanted the public to believe that things weren't so bad. I guess the same applies here. instead of tar balls its covid patients.


But Obama.

Classic.


BrerRabbit - 4/29/2020 at 04:13 PM

Tar balls. Even more classic, and Freudian.


BIGV - 4/29/2020 at 04:43 PM

quote:
But Obama.

Classic.


And hilarious!..Simply because it is no different than the little club here that takes every opportunity and then some to turn everything into a "But Trump" response.

But still classic.


Rusty - 4/29/2020 at 05:11 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.


For an administration focused on optics, this was a chance for the VP/COVID19 Task Force Director to wear a mask according to the administration's own guidelines plus the hospital's policy & practice distancing. There's no downside at all. It's not like they couldn't use some good PR about now.


Its no different from Obama visiting the Gulf beaches swept clean of tar balls during the BP Oil spill crisis. Its about optics. Obama's gang wanted the public to believe that things weren't so bad. I guess the same applies here. instead of tar balls its covid patients.


Apples and ... fuel pumps! We are in a situation where EVERY American should be observing extreme sanitary practices. The tar balls were (and still are!) a nasty problem. But I haven't heard of anybody accidentally inhaling one or anything. I do not think that a mask would've been of much use.

Part of the "magic" of the Coronavirus is its ability to go unrecognized during the initial stages. From my understanding (and I've read VOLUMES on this), it is during this early, unrecognizable stage that the virus is most contagious. In my mind, Pence screwed the pooch on this one.

If Obama was trying to illustrate (or just suggest) that the coast was clear or not is one thing (and I am not saying that he was right or wrong). One thing that we KNOW right now about the Coronavirus is that the coast is most certainly NOT clear! This virus is still very much a live and hungry wild beast looking to feed!
Pence should really be working hard to drive that point home.


BIGV - 4/29/2020 at 05:18 PM

quote:
We are in a situation where EVERY American should be observing extreme sanitary practices.


Certainly. Wash your hands with hot water Check. Social distancing. Check.

Masks?.... Up to the individual


Stephen - 4/29/2020 at 05:28 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Pence wearing a mask would've been an example of LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE.





Its no different from Obama visiting the Gulf beaches swept clean of tar balls during the BP Oil spill crisis. Its about optics. Obama's gang wanted the public to believe that things weren't so bad. I guess the same applies here. instead of tar balls its covid patients.


Apples and ... fuel pumps! We are in a situation where EVERY American should be observing extreme sanitary practices. The tar balls were (and still are!) a nasty problem. But I haven't heard of anybody accidentally inhaling one or anything. I do not think that a mask would've been of much use.

Part of the "magic" of the Coronavirus is its ability to go unrecognized during the initial stages. From my understanding (and I've read VOLUMES on this), it is during this early, unrecognizable stage that the virus is most contagious.


Yes - it’s very much like cancer in that respect - there is no telling & we just don’t know where & how it originates -
Have seen those tar balls b4, they are yicky alright & smelled bad too as I recall



cyclone88 - 4/29/2020 at 07:06 PM

quote:
[you can't be serious. we know the spread of the virus comes from close contact with other people. it's this type of stupidity that hurts America.


It's this lack of leadership that hurts America. The Director of the US COVID-19 Task Force flaunting the policy of the hospital in which he was visiting is not ok. Mayo tweeted that they gave him a mask; he declined. No mask. No social distancing. Contact - elbow bump. What kind of message does that send to an already-confused public?

The knee jerk reaction to defend EVERYTHING no matter how heinous or ignorant or mistaken it is makes us unnecessarily divided. We are all equally vulnerable to COVID-19. We should unanimously say "Don't drink bleach" and "Follow the guidelines of the hospital you're in." How hard is that? What's wrong w/that? Why can't we collectively agree that some actions are just wrong? It has zero to do w/politics.

I posted the lack of a mask in response to the discussion of the doctor who worked in NYC's ER, contracted the virus & survived, went back to work & it was too much, & committed suicide. There are medical professionals & hospital staff risking their lives (& sanity) fighting this. Imagine how Dr. Breen's colleagues would feel if Pence was strolling around that hospital w/o a mask, not distancing, & elbow bumping plasma donors? Anyone knows if Mayo staff has been sickened or worse?

It's callous & disrespectful to members of the forum who are either working in hospitals themselves, have family members who do so, or working to supply hospitals w/adequate resources for patients & staff.

No part of this post is directed to the troll. It's directed to anyone who can't just once look at something objectively.


Rusty - 4/29/2020 at 07:23 PM

Total aside: who taught Pence how to "elbow bump"? Left arm -to-right arm results in the same effect as offering your left hand to someone offering their right in a handshake. It just looked goofy!


BIGV - 4/29/2020 at 07:29 PM

quote:
It's up to the law at the end of the day


Which or what Law are you referencing?


stormyrider - 4/29/2020 at 08:01 PM

If hospital policy is that everyone should wear a mask, then everyone should wear a mask.
Especially the VP

it's not like Mayo Clinic is a 2 bit operation

The VP is essentially saying to one of the leading institutions in the WORLD that either I am above your policy or I disagree with your policy or your policy is foolish.
It's not like Pence went to med school


stormyrider - 4/30/2020 at 12:57 AM

How about shut your god damned mouth and listen to the Health Care Professionals


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 01:04 AM

quote:
If hospital policy is that everyone should wear a mask, then everyone should wear a mask.
Especially the VP


Courtesy to the Hospital and its staff aside and respect given to their gallant efforts, would you take a moment to explain the difference between "Policy" & "Law"?

Thanks in advance


piacere - 4/30/2020 at 01:07 AM

quote:
The lefties are all concerned about the petty while VP Pence is working to solve the problem.

Not one the lefties offers any solutions or supports anything that can help.





Yeah, good ol' Doctor Pence. Guy's a genius.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 02:18 AM

quote:
quote:
How about shut your god damned mouth and listen to the Health Care Professionals



Having a hard time accepting that the lefties are all about the petty and President Trump and Vice President Pence are getting the job done?

Get over it.





NOBODY LIKES YOU, YOU ADD NOTHING - GO AWAY.

go make your lefty - rightyy argument somewhere else


cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 12:28 PM

COVID-19 is killing people all over the globe from China to Sweden to the US. Everyone on the planet is vulnerable.

There are doctors, scientists, & other experts who are putting their expertise to work to find a treatment, a vaccine, fast diagnostic tests, & reliable antibody tests. There are medical professionals who are treating patients all over the world. They are communists, socialists, capitalists, monarchists, & apolitical. The form of government of their country & their personal political opinions are irrelevant. They're working independently & sharing their findings to fight the pandemic & treat the sick. It's preposterous for posters to clutter up discussions w/references to a "left" or "right" label to those experts working overtime to save their sorry asses. COVID-19 doesn't distinguish between nations & certainly not American political parties. Get woke.


Rusty - 4/30/2020 at 01:11 PM

Obstinance. Several sufferers of this sometimes lethal affliction here among us.

Out of concern for the ENTIRE PUBLIC - health officials (government or otherwise) put measures into place that were designed to minimize the spread of a DEADLY freakin' virus. But there are some who insist on stretching, bending or outright breaking these "rules" (rules - enacting laws would take too long) of protection. For what reason? Oh, yeah - the (apparent) Constitutional right to spread ones illness.

Yeah - it's called obstinance. We've got several candidates for poster child here among us.

Just do the world a favor and sign a waiver for a ventilator for when your number gets called.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 01:50 PM

With the masks or face coverings, I see it as a respect for others thing, a courtesy.

Ohio will mandate that businesses about to open, and the ones that have been open, must have their employees wear face masks (although there are some specific exceptions). He first said everyone must wear a face covering, but then came back and said customers aren't required to wear one instead saying it is simply strongly encouraged.

So I see it two-fold, if the employees going to work have to wear one, I'm going to wear one when I'm in their store. And...I don't know if I might have it sometimes, they don't know if I have it, so you wear the mask out of an abundance of caution and courtesy for people around you.

Stuff is weird right now, we just have to get through it.



cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 02:30 PM

quote:
Stuff is weird right now, we just have to get through it.


What we don't have to "get through" is the labeling by trolls & posters of anyone outside the world of this board. I'm insulted by being labeled myself & just ignore them. I'm more than what some forum poster who's never met thinks I am.

Nebish, you're a reasonable guy. Masks, social distancing, no contact aren't "courtesies." Some are mandated, some are voluntary, & some are the policy of institutions/businesses. When the Mayo Clinic - ranked the #1 hospital in the US by medical & watchdog organizations, says masks, social distancing, & no contact is THEIR HOSPITAL's policy, DO IT.

Forget that Pence is VP. He's the Director of the US COVID-19 Task Force designated by the president himself. He has an obligation to provide Americans w/leadership. That means following the hospital policy of American's #1 hospital administration, especially when he appears on camera. Otherwise, he looks like he's above the virus, other humans, & certainly mere medical experts. He also looks just plain stupid. His response as to why he didn't wear one - that he is VP of the US & gets tested regularly - was even more stupid. As director of the task force who meets Fauci/Birx et al every day, he should know the basics - people can be asymptomatic & have the virus, there are false negatives, people w/COVID-19 can get it again, & no one of any age, race, gender, or nationally is immune.

I saw the clip as it happened on mute so I wasn't influenced by any reporter narrative. I'm an adult. I've been paying attention. His lack of mask & other actions were so incongruous w/what anyone else was doing, it stood out. I then got phone calls from friends & colleagues in Europe who actually asked if Trump's sanity had tipped if he was advising experts to test bleach & light injections on patients & his back-up man is clueless.

So, as thoughtful as most of your posts are, I disagree w/you on this one. What ordinary citizens do is their business & if they want to go against a hospital policy, they will be denied admittance. Our leadership owes us more.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 02:38 PM

Pence should've worn a mask.

I was talking about myself and what I do, how I look at my actions towards others.


cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 03:04 PM

quote:
Pence should've worn a mask.

I was talking about myself and what I do, how I look at my actions towards others.


But it's not a courtesy. It may not even be your call. Depending upon where you are, it can be anything from an entry requirement to local mandate.


Brucebcd - 4/30/2020 at 03:07 PM

Researchers at the Woodstock Institute have reversed an earlier recomndation. Their new stance, “Go ahead and take that brown acid, its worth a try”. Thus a possible end to this global pandemic...


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 03:56 PM

Bruce! Wow it’s been a while eh?

Cyclone, I am talking about where I am.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 04:04 PM

I went into Ace Hardware this week. I wore a mask. I was the only person in there to have one on out of 4 employees and two other customers. Maybe the mask helps me a little, but really it helps them, I wore it so other people would feel more comfortable around me.

Soon here, those Ace workers are going to have to wear a mask too or some kind of face covering. So if they have to I think I should too, we’re in this together.

Our Governor felt requiring customers to wear one was problematic. I would’ve rather he just mandated it. Sure some people wouldn’t have done it, I think most would’ve. It wouldn’t be enforceable and businesses were concerned about enforcement. I think it sends a wrong message to say it’s important for employees to wear a mask, but not customers.

In the end, with asymptomatic spread I think me wearing a mask makes others feel more comfortable. And it’s like, you’re doing it, I’ll do it to.

This is me in my area. I’m not talking about Mayo or some other state or location.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 04:08 PM

quote:
quote:
Pence should've worn a mask.

I was talking about myself and what I do, how I look at my actions towards others.


But it's not a courtesy. It may not even be your call. Depending upon where you are, it can be anything from an entry requirement to local mandate.


What LAW is that?


Rusty - 4/30/2020 at 04:13 PM

How about wearing masks as a gesture of courtesy and respect to all the over-worked hospital staffs in the country? They've literally got bodies piling up, they're running out of masks and other supplies and some are even committing job stress-related suicide. Could you at least consider giving these folks a break? I mean, if it doesn't wreck all your constitutional rights and stuff.


Brendan - 4/30/2020 at 04:15 PM

Cyclone88, thanks for your numerous posts on this. Really well thought out, common sense stuff that applies to everyone. All very well said.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 04:22 PM

quote:
How about wearing masks as a gesture of courtesy and respect to all the over-worked hospital staffs in the country? They've literally got bodies piling up, they're running out of masks and other supplies and some are even committing job stress-related suicide. Could you at least consider giving these folks a break? I mean, if it doesn't wreck all your constitutional rights and stuff.

"
See, that is all fine and dandy, using the phrase. "courtesy and respect"....but if I choose not to because of whatever reason and whatever the consequences are of people needing to label my choice...What LAW are they going to enforce to make me?

quote:
I mean, if it doesn't wreck all your constitutional rights and stuff.


"and stuff" ....See, my belief is that if you really feel tis way, you, are part of the problem


Rusty - 4/30/2020 at 04:29 PM

"Stuff" - because you keep asking about a particular LAW regarding wearing masks -as requested and suggested by people like SCIENTISTS, shop owners, fellow human beings ... and stuff. Do you even know how a LAW becomes such? Do you understand the process and the TIME that it takes to get legislation in place? By the time an actual LAW could be enacted, we could lose great numbers of people (taxpayers ... and stuff).

Just sign that ventilator waiver!


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 04:35 PM

quote:
"Stuff" - because you keep asking about a particular LAW regarding wearing masks -as requested and suggested by people like SCIENTISTS, shop owners, fellow human beings ... and stuff. Do you even know how a LAW becomes such? Do you understand the process and the TIME that it takes to get legislation in place? By the time an actual LAW could be enacted, we could lose great numbers of people (taxpayers ... and stuff).

Just sign that ventilator waiver!


Yes, I do understand, thank you! I will wear a mask when I see fit, not because it is a courtesy, not because I've been told, or it has been mandated or requested.

You do you and I will do me.


cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 04:51 PM

quote:
Cyclone88, thanks for your numerous posts on this.

I didn't intend to be a crusader, but labeling the acts of wearing masks, social distancing, & contact as "left/right" when it's a worldwide health issue is ludicrous. My comments started w/Pence - not in his position as VP but as the leader of the US COVID-19 Task Force - rejecting the policy of the #1 US hospital administration. I don't care what political party he is. Right now, he represents the US response to COVID-19 & he defied the hospital's well thought out policy. Hearing from Mayo that he refused a mask he was given is incredible to me. The refusal to distance & elbow bumping a plasma donor surpass incredulity.

Liberal-shaming people who're complying w/guidelines & policies is counter-productive to mitigating a deadly virus.


BrerRabbit - 4/30/2020 at 05:37 PM

Changing times and stresses, along with new information cause adaptations in human behavior. There is always a "drag population" that needs to be factored in to any change of social convention.

In the mid-1800's the nascent germ theory was mocked, not only by laymen, but surgeons as well. When Lister published his breakthrough article on handwashing in 1867, it was poopooed and dismissed by his peers at first. By 1875, handwashing was standard practice. To this day, studies show that handwashing is not always practiced.

Other innovations in personal hygiene were ignored or laughed at upon their inventiion. The use of toilet paper for example, took a long time to catch on, it was considered an effete habit of ladies.

There surely must have been a time in our prehistory when cavemen refused to cover their rear ends and pizzles with the new technology, animal hide, as it restricted freedom of movement, interfered with courtship display, and offended their notion of personal liberty.

So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.


Brucebcd - 4/30/2020 at 05:40 PM

It all seems like a catch-22, the longer you shelter in place, the longer you need to shelter in place. May not be true, but certainly has that feel to it.
As far as essential workers go, maybe Friday and Saturday nights Bars, Casinos and Stripclubs are open, and grocery stores close? Just a thought. As a great philosopher once said “Unless they are paying your nut, no one has the right to tell you how to make a living”. That philosopher of course, Christopher Moltisanti.
This is a geezer disease, 3 out of 4 fatalities are over the age of 65. If you’re under 40 the odds of dying are extremely small. So, the older you get, the closer you are to dying. Nothing new. Is it wise to shut down the workforce (65 and under), to protect those over 65? Are we doing the senior citizens any favor by slowing the spread? I understand keeping things tightly wrapped until hospital capacity is brought up, but keeping economy wrapped after that? Officials have some ‘splaining to do. Certainly in favor of extra money being spent on nursing homes. But in general, I think us geezers can fend for ourselves. We need the younger generation out there making some bucks so they can pay our social security checks.... We all know how that works, right?


BrerRabbit - 4/30/2020 at 05:56 PM

quote:
We need the younger generation out there making some bucks so they can pay our social security checks.... We all know how that works, right?


Plus if the "geezers" die off, the younger generation won't have to pay social security, which was all flushed down the toilet in 2020 anyway, so it is a win-win!


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 06:01 PM

quote:
So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.


Interesting theory and attempt at making it seem as though it has already been accepted in the annals of time as being the right thing to do.

"The World Health Organization and the CDC have repeatedly said that most people do not need to wear masks unless they are sick and coughing."

I believe this falls under the guise and sheep mentality thought process that "Doing something, is better than doing nothing".....

Have you seen that person, driving in a car by themselves, wearing a mask? I think there are an equal amount of examples of people reacting solely because of the immense amount of time they are spending in front of their TVs reacting to the fear being sold by the media.

Follow the money.


piacere - 4/30/2020 at 06:14 PM

quote:
It all seems like a catch-22, the longer you shelter in place, the longer you need to shelter in place. May not be true, but certainly has that feel to it.
As far as essential workers go, maybe Friday and Saturday nights Bars, Casinos and Stripclubs are open, and grocery stores close? Just a thought. As a great philosopher once said “Unless they are paying your nut, no one has the right to tell you how to make a living”. That philosopher of course, Christopher Moltisanti.
This is a geezer disease, 3 out of 4 fatalities are over the age of 65. If you’re under 40 the odds of dying are extremely small. So, the older you get, the closer you are to dying. Nothing new. Is it wise to shut down the workforce (65 and under), to protect those over 65? Are we doing the senior citizens any favor by slowing the spread? I understand keeping things tightly wrapped until hospital capacity is brought up, but keeping economy wrapped after that? Officials have some ‘splaining to do. Certainly in favor of extra money being spent on nursing homes. But in general, I think us geezers can fend for ourselves. We need the younger generation out there making some bucks so they can pay our social security checks.... We all know how that works, right?


One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.


Jerry - 4/30/2020 at 06:17 PM

quote:
Researchers at the Woodstock Institute have reversed an earlier recomndation. Their new stance, “Go ahead and take that brown acid, its worth a try”. Thus a possible end to this global pandemic...


They found out that it's just brown sugar and cinnamon paste.


BrerRabbit - 4/30/2020 at 06:53 PM

quote:
Interesting theory and attempt at making it seem as though it has already been accepted in the annals of time as being the right thing to do.


Unk say: "Ana wana kava pipi". It took thousands of years for loin covering to be recognized as common sense.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 06:55 PM

quote:
quote:
Interesting theory and attempt at making it seem as though it has already been accepted in the annals of time as being the right thing to do.


Unk say: "Ana wana kava pipi". It took thousands of years for loin covering to be recognized as common sense.


"Common sense" or socially unacceptable?


BrerRabbit - 4/30/2020 at 07:12 PM

Thought experiment: Given your resistance-based outlook, back in the mid-1800s when germ theory was developing, would you have been interested at all or would you have rejected it automatically?

Times change, personality types do not .


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 07:17 PM

quote:
Thought experiment: Given your resistance-based outlook, back in the mid-1800s when germ theory was developing, would you have been interested at all or would you have rejected it automatically?

Times change, personality types do not .


Haha! "resistance-based outlook"....

Would all people have worn face masks everywhere in the 1800's?


BrerRabbit - 4/30/2020 at 07:29 PM

Would you have been part of the "drag population" laughing at handwashing in 1867? Surely you know yourself well enough to know which type of reaction you would have experienced in any era given your present mindset.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 07:36 PM

quote:
Would you have been part of the "drag population" laughing at handwashing in 1867? Surely you know yourself well enough to know which type of reaction you would have experienced in any era given your present mindset.


Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so with no definitive proof that it is helping. I can not speak to the mores of what people believed in 1867 anymore than you can.


cyclone88 - 4/30/2020 at 07:39 PM

quote:
So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.

I don't care about the slowcoaches's positions. They can do whatever they want & accept the consequences to themselves & others. I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 07:50 PM

quote:
quote:
So we just have to be patient with our slowcoaches. They will tire of being laughed at eventually.

I don't care about the slowcoaches's positions. They can do whatever they want & accept the consequences to themselves & others. I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst.


I am curious as to why you've labeled it as "Liberal shaming"?


BrerRabbit - 4/30/2020 at 07:54 PM

quote:
I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst.


I don't know about liberalshaming, new term for me, I can say I am getting the snide smirks from the maskless.

quote:
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .


You're asking me? I don't know you and I have no idea why you do anything. What you do is your business. I do think right now hollerin around about mask rights on social media is pretty dumb.


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 07:56 PM

quote:
You're asking me?


I was not.


BrerRabbit - 4/30/2020 at 08:05 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .

quote:
quote:
You're asking me?


quote:
I was not.




Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?


BIGV - 4/30/2020 at 08:16 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .

quote:
quote:
You're asking me?


quote:
I was not.




Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?


It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?

"Liberal shaming"?


OriginalGoober - 4/30/2020 at 08:16 PM



I'm guessing this protester is almost out of smoke and not looking forward to resin hits.


nebish - 4/30/2020 at 10:40 PM

quote:
One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.


Is that how you greet a member we haven't seen for 5 years?


piacere - 4/30/2020 at 11:49 PM

quote:
quote:
One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.


Is that how you greet a member we haven't seen for 5 years?


Is that what a member who hasn't been here for five years posts upon his return?

OK, fine. Welcome back Bruce. My 90+ year old family members, affectionately referred to as "geezers", sure are glad about your return

Better?


BrerRabbit - 4/30/2020 at 11:50 PM

quote:
Have you seen that person, driving in a car by themselves, wearing a mask?


I am sure it makes their day when you glare and stare in judgement of the sheeple at the red light stop. I see this rarely, and if I do I don't think twice about their business. I don't know about where you live, but in towns around here, regular midsize population 100k or so, very few people other than grocery workers, USPS, gas attendants, etc are using masks. The vast majority of people are not wearing masks.

I am not complaining or bellyaching that they should, am just pointing out what is going on. I am the odd one out everywhere I go. I did not take precautions until a couple weeks in, I did not take it seriously until folks started dropping like flies. The reality that most don't give a hoot about precautions clinched it, I wear a mask now.

Today at the KwikMart, 15 people including employees, not one mask or glove in sight, except for me - and I was getting looks. Oh well - I guess they all thought I was out to rob them of their rights.

So cut the "persecuted minority" act. You are the majority.


Jerry - 5/1/2020 at 12:03 AM

quote:
Have you seen that person, driving in a car by themselves, wearing a mask?
Follow the money.


To all y'all, QUIT STARING AT ME.


BrerRabbit - 5/1/2020 at 12:11 AM

quote:
To all y'all, QUIT STARING AT ME.


Keep it on, man. Believe me we would stare at you worse if we could see your face! Damn, man you should sign up as an extra for The Walking Dead!


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 12:19 AM

quote:
I am sure it makes their day when you glare and stare in judgement of the sheeple at the red light stop.


Yep, that's what I was doing alright.....Glancing and noticing is now equated with...."Staring in Judgement".....

quote:
So cut the "persecuted minority" act. You are the majority.


In choosing to not wear a mask?...Whad'ya know about that!....LOL, I have never claimed to be part of a "persecuted minority" and just because you have applied a label, does not make it so. Just chuckling over the amount of people who've forgotten how to think for themselves...


piacere - 5/1/2020 at 12:20 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .

quote:
quote:
You're asking me?


quote:
I was not.




Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?


It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?

"Liberal shaming"?


Bill Maher, YouTube. Liberal shaming. You'll love it.


BrerRabbit - 5/1/2020 at 12:28 AM

quote:
. . .chuckling over the amount of people who've forgotten how to think for themselves...


How do you know they are not thinking for themselves?


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 12:36 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Am I in direct conflict with wearing a face mask just because everyone else is and the social and media driven pressure to do so . . .

quote:
quote:
You're asking me?


quote:
I was not.




Then who were you asking? Or was it more of a general question to the universe?


It was directed at Cyclone88....Curiosity.."I think liberal-shaming for adhering to health guidelines in a pandemic is misguided at best & offensive at worst." ....What does this mean?

"Liberal shaming"?


Bill Maher, YouTube. Liberal shaming. You'll love it.


Looked. I see fat shaming and people who are ashamed to be white, but no "Liberal shaming" videos


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 12:38 AM

quote:
quote:
. . .chuckling over the amount of people who've forgotten how to think for themselves...


How do you know they are not thinking for themselves?


I don't. Just a guess based on the populace's current skill set at "follow the leader"


BrerRabbit - 5/1/2020 at 01:13 AM

quote:
Just a guess based on the populace's current skill set at "follow the leader"


In a word - prejudice.


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 01:20 AM

quote:
quote:
Just a guess based on the populace's current skill set at "follow the leader"


In a word - prejudice.


Your definition not mine and yes... I am getting used to your having to label everything.


BrerRabbit - 5/1/2020 at 03:21 AM

A simple objective observation, no more, no less. Prejudice means to pre-judge. When you assume someone driving with a mask on is a sheeple not thinking for his or her self that is a pre-judgement.

Calling people sheep is bigotry.

[Edited on 5/1/2020 by BrerRabbit]


porkchopbob - 5/1/2020 at 12:30 PM

quote:
Would all people have worn face masks everywhere in the 1800's?

Well, some doctors in Europe did, though styles have certainly changed.


nebish - 5/1/2020 at 02:54 PM

To wrap up my feelings on the masks, if that is what we should do in order to start coming out of our shells and open businesses then I'm fine with that. All other issues and concerns noted.

Ohio is extending the stay at home order until the end of May. As businesses open, there will be exceptions for activity related to those businesses. Today we have medical facilities and offices, veterinary places and dentists opening. May 4th distribution centers, manufacturing and construction that may've been closed or halted can resume. Same with general office locations. May 12th retail can open. Exceptions will be allowed for those on top of the already allowed exceptions for essential workers and essential needs plus exercise allowance.

I'm fine with a slow approach to reopen businesses with the precautions that are being put into place. But at this point, what does stay home mean now anyway? They want to keep people from congregating in parks and playing sports with close physical contact...that's fine. Hospitals and long term care and prisons are going to restrict visitation regardless of a stay at home order. I feel like those things can, and are addressed on their own without this broad stay at home order all while less and less people are going to be staying at home this month as they open businesses.

It makes me think of a seat belt sign on the airplane. I heard a pilot describe it once like this - you have to take the seat belt sign off occasionally because if you leave it on too long people are going to ignore it and get up and move around with the sign on. So you take it off every now and then and then put it back on and people are more likely to follow it.

There's going to be so many exceptions in it now, really it's going to get where the exception is staying at home.

More and more people have started to tune Dewine out. I guess I'm falling into that camp now. You tell people to stay at home all while activity is going to be increasing in the state this month...really the stay at home order is going to apply to fewer and fewer people in the coming days and weeks. It's run it's course and essentially become meaningless.


BIGV - 5/1/2020 at 03:03 PM

quote:
A simple objective observation, no more, no less. Prejudice means to pre-judge. When you assume someone driving with a mask on is a sheeple not thinking for his or her self that is a pre-judgement.

Calling people sheep is bigotry.

[Edited on 5/1/2020 by BrerRabbit]
0

Here we go again, you with your need to label and help others understand what they really mean when they post things you disagree with. Maybe you can once again explain how California is really operating Concentration camps at the border?

Thanks in advance


Stephen - 5/1/2020 at 10:57 PM

It’s About Time - thank you Mr McConnell
“The Country Needs Sports”

“We’ve all missed that during the pandemic, and the sooner we can get at least some of our sports - and I think the one eligible to begin first would be baseball - it would be a great morale booster for the country & an indication that we’re going to begin to get back to normal”

I don’t see how anyone could disagree
We’ve done our part, now it’s time to have our lives back
It will be downright lunacy not to have hoop/puck seasons - have conceded no baseball, but if there’s been no change in this thing by say summer, the only change is to give normal life a go again

Sports is the way to start the process of opening up America again!

[Edited on 5/1/2020 by Stephen]


nebish - 5/1/2020 at 11:56 PM

"now it's time to have our lives back"

It's important that we don't negate everything we have done and every sacrifice people have made up to this point, or it was all for nothing. Everyone wants to be back, and I want to get on the road to recovery. We're going to walk before we run. A lot of people are going to throw caution to the wind, but most people I believe will be responsible. We have to trust people with some judgement. Not everyone is going to be careful, some people will be extra careful. We can't make everyone do the same thing. Like I said, we'll get what we get out of it. If more of us act appropriately than otherwise we can get through this and continue with further openings and relaxing. One step at a time.


Rusty - 5/2/2020 at 01:55 PM

My statement is as apolitical as I can make it: We're not ready. Georgia Governor Simp is pretty much forcing this on our state. Restaurateurs from Atlanta to Savannah are advising so.

I know everybody is in a hurry for our lives to get back to normal, but the measures that are in place (self-quarantine, 6' social distancing and (for now ... maybe a little longer) no congregating in public ARE WORKING! As bad as this sucks, I firmly believe we need another few weeks (at least) of this.

I predicted weeks ago - and have since been "agreed with" by Dr. Birx - we are going to experience a new spike that will likely cause the shutdown of stores and malls - and overload the livin' $hit out of "on-line" establishments - that will likely result in another economy crash due to THE LOSS OF CHRISTMAS/HOLIDAY RETAIL. You have no idea how much I'd love to be wrong on this.


StratDal - 5/2/2020 at 04:22 PM

quote:
"now it's time to have our lives back"

It's important that we don't negate everything we have done and every sacrifice people have made up to this point, or it was all for nothing. Everyone wants to be back, and I want to get on the road to recovery. We're going to walk before we run. A lot of people are going to throw caution to the wind, but most people I believe will be responsible. We have to trust people with some judgement. Not everyone is going to be careful, some people will be extra careful. We can't make everyone do the same thing. Like I said, we'll get what we get out of it. If more of us act appropriately than otherwise we can get through this and continue with further openings and relaxing. One step at a time.


+1 Well said Nebish. Agree with your mask take on your other recent post.


Stephen - 5/2/2020 at 07:12 PM

An ESPN analysis predicted that
“The sudden disappearance of sports will cost $12 billion in revenue and hundreds of thousands of jobs, an economic catastrophe that could more than double if the college & NFL schedules are shut down this fall”

& that’s just in sports - so that’s the other very upsetting part of the virus -
We’re walking w/eyes wide open into an abyss of economic disaster worse than the Great Depression


[Edited on 5/2/2020 by Stephen]


Rusty - 5/2/2020 at 07:34 PM

Just back from a beach drive-by.

Despite the signage on the causeway that reads (in English): BEACHES OPEN FOR EXERCISE ONLY. NO CHAIRS, COOLERS. TENTS OR TABLES ... the beach is packed with "tourons" doing these and other activities. A drive through the village (area with pier, restaurants, bars etc) revealed more tourons lined up tightly to enter establishments that are now open for business as per our Unstable Genius Governor.

I'd bet a testicle that most of these tourons are the very folks who were stating that this virus was nothing more than the flu several weeks ago.

I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.

Any takers? I've only got two testicles!


MartinD28 - 5/2/2020 at 08:27 PM

quote:
Just back from a beach drive-by.

Despite the signage on the causeway that reads (in English): BEACHES OPEN FOR EXERCISE ONLY. NO CHAIRS, COOLERS. TENTS OR TABLES ... the beach is packed with "tourons" doing these and other activities. A drive through the village (area with pier, restaurants, bars etc) revealed more tourons lined up tightly to enter establishments that are now open for business as per our Unstable Genius Governor.

I'd bet a testicle that most of these tourons are the very folks who were stating that this virus was nothing more than the flu several weeks ago.

I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.

Any takers? I've only got two testicles!

This shouldn't surprise anyone. These are the people that rank their "freedoms", economy, and health in that order. That's assuming they even think instead of just act or react. No doubt some of these will learn that a few minutes in the sun didn't reward them well if they contract Covid. One person in a crowd can do significant damage to many.

Have the GA numbers met the prez's 14 day guidelines?

It will be an interesting observation to see how the numbers play out in the next several weeks as more & more people come out. I hope the numbers drop, but would it surprise anyone if there is cause and effect of more cases and death? It's a hard price to pay. The good doctors say what they do for a reason. Trump and governors say what they do for a different reason.




BIGV - 5/2/2020 at 08:48 PM

quote:
I'll bet the other testicle that in about 6-8 weeks, some of these tourons are going to file lawsuits against the state of Georgia and every single dining establishment after they develop Coronavirus - because not enough steps were taken to protect them.


Good luck with any lawsuit filed against any business where the core is "not enough steps were taken to protect them."..Dining out is a choice and diners should be well aware of the risks after 75 days of the media bombarding them with the death tolls.


Fujirich - 5/2/2020 at 10:01 PM

All this hand wringing and fear about getting the virus, spreading the virus, keeping the country shut down, waiting for a cure, etc. will almost certainly be seen in hindsight as one of the stupidest reactions mankind has ever had to a threat. We've let fear overcome reason, and we over-reacted to something that is turning out to be no worse for the majority than an average seasonal flu. While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu. The difference this time is that our insane over-reaction by shutting down most of the world's economy will have more devastating impact to the lives and well being of far more people than the actual illness itself.

quote:
The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation

The tragedy of the COVID-19 pandemic appears to be entering the containment phase. Tens of thousands of Americans have died, and Americans are now desperate for sensible policymakers who have the courage to ignore the panic and rely on facts. Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function.

Five key facts are being ignored by those calling for continuing the near-total lockdown.

Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19.

The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies.

In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 10 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000.

Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.

Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding.

We can learn about hospital utilization from data from New York City, the hotbed of COVID-19 with more than 34,600 hospitalizations to date. For those under 18 years of age, hospitalization from the virus is 0.01 percent, or 11 per 100,000 people; for those 18 to 44 years old, hospitalization is 0.1 percent. Even for people ages 65 to 74, only 1.7 percent were hospitalized. Of 4,103 confirmed COVID-19 patients with symptoms bad enough to seek medical care, Dr. Leora Horwitz of NYU Medical Center concluded "age is far and away the strongest risk factor for hospitalization." Even early WHO reports noted that 80 percent of all cases were mild, and more recent studies show a far more widespread rate of infection and lower rate of serious illness. Half of all people testing positive for infection have no symptoms at all. The vast majority of younger, otherwise healthy people do not need significant medical care if they catch this infection.

Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem.

We know from decades of medical science that infection itself allows people to generate an immune response — antibodies — so that the infection is controlled throughout the population by “herd immunity.” Indeed, that is the main purpose of widespread immunization in other viral diseases — to assist with population immunity. In this virus, we know that medical care is not even necessary for the vast majority of people who are infected. It is so mild that half of infected people are asymptomatic, shown in early data from the Diamond Princess ship, and then in Iceland and Italy. That has been falsely portrayed as a problem requiring mass isolation. In fact, infected people without severe illness are the immediately available vehicle for establishing widespread immunity. By transmitting the virus to others in the low-risk group who then generate antibodies, they block the network of pathways toward the most vulnerable people, ultimately ending the threat. Extending whole-population isolation would directly prevent that widespread immunity from developing.

Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections.

Critical health care for millions of Americans is being ignored and people are dying to accommodate “potential” COVID-19 patients and for fear of spreading the disease. Most states and many hospitals abruptly stopped “nonessential” procedures and surgery. That prevented diagnoses of life-threatening diseases, like cancer screening, biopsies of tumors now undiscovered and potentially deadly brain aneurysms. Treatments, including emergency care, for the most serious illnesses were also missed. Cancer patients deferred chemotherapy. An estimated 80 percent of brain surgery cases were skipped. Acute stroke and heart attack patients missed their only chances for treatment, some dying and many now facing permanent disability.

Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures.

The overwhelming evidence all over the world consistently shows that a clearly defined group — older people and others with underlying conditions — is more likely to have a serious illness requiring hospitalization and more likely to die from COVID-19. Knowing that, it is a commonsense, achievable goal to target isolation policy to that group, including strictly monitoring those who interact with them. Nursing home residents, the highest risk, should be the most straightforward to systematically protect from infected people, given that they already live in confined places with highly restricted entry.

The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.

Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center.


https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-pani c-and-end-the-total-isolation


tbomike - 5/2/2020 at 10:48 PM

quote:
All this hand wringing and fear about getting the virus, spreading the virus, keeping the country shut down, waiting for a cure, etc. will almost certainly be seen in hindsight as one of the stupidest reactions mankind has ever had to a threat. We've let fear overcome reason, and we over-reacted to something that is turning out to be no worse for the majority than an average seasonal flu. While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu. The difference this time is that our insane over-reaction by shutting down most of the world's economy will have more devastating impact to the lives and well being of far more people than the actual illness itself.

quote:
The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation

The tragedy of the COVID-19 pandemic appears to be entering the containment phase. Tens of thousands of Americans have died, and Americans are now desperate for sensible policymakers who have the courage to ignore the panic and rely on facts. Leaders must examine accumulated data to see what has actually happened, rather than keep emphasizing hypothetical projections; combine that empirical evidence with fundamental principles of biology established for decades; and then thoughtfully restore the country to function.

Five key facts are being ignored by those calling for continuing the near-total lockdown.

Fact 1: The overwhelming majority of people do not have any significant risk of dying from COVID-19.

The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies.

In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 10 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000.

Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.

Fact 2: Protecting older, at-risk people eliminates hospital overcrowding.

We can learn about hospital utilization from data from New York City, the hotbed of COVID-19 with more than 34,600 hospitalizations to date. For those under 18 years of age, hospitalization from the virus is 0.01 percent, or 11 per 100,000 people; for those 18 to 44 years old, hospitalization is 0.1 percent. Even for people ages 65 to 74, only 1.7 percent were hospitalized. Of 4,103 confirmed COVID-19 patients with symptoms bad enough to seek medical care, Dr. Leora Horwitz of NYU Medical Center concluded "age is far and away the strongest risk factor for hospitalization." Even early WHO reports noted that 80 percent of all cases were mild, and more recent studies show a far more widespread rate of infection and lower rate of serious illness. Half of all people testing positive for infection have no symptoms at all. The vast majority of younger, otherwise healthy people do not need significant medical care if they catch this infection.

Fact 3: Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem.

We know from decades of medical science that infection itself allows people to generate an immune response — antibodies — so that the infection is controlled throughout the population by “herd immunity.” Indeed, that is the main purpose of widespread immunization in other viral diseases — to assist with population immunity. In this virus, we know that medical care is not even necessary for the vast majority of people who are infected. It is so mild that half of infected people are asymptomatic, shown in early data from the Diamond Princess ship, and then in Iceland and Italy. That has been falsely portrayed as a problem requiring mass isolation. In fact, infected people without severe illness are the immediately available vehicle for establishing widespread immunity. By transmitting the virus to others in the low-risk group who then generate antibodies, they block the network of pathways toward the most vulnerable people, ultimately ending the threat. Extending whole-population isolation would directly prevent that widespread immunity from developing.

Fact 4: People are dying because other medical care is not getting done due to hypothetical projections.

Critical health care for millions of Americans is being ignored and people are dying to accommodate “potential” COVID-19 patients and for fear of spreading the disease. Most states and many hospitals abruptly stopped “nonessential” procedures and surgery. That prevented diagnoses of life-threatening diseases, like cancer screening, biopsies of tumors now undiscovered and potentially deadly brain aneurysms. Treatments, including emergency care, for the most serious illnesses were also missed. Cancer patients deferred chemotherapy. An estimated 80 percent of brain surgery cases were skipped. Acute stroke and heart attack patients missed their only chances for treatment, some dying and many now facing permanent disability.

Fact 5: We have a clearly defined population at risk who can be protected with targeted measures.

The overwhelming evidence all over the world consistently shows that a clearly defined group — older people and others with underlying conditions — is more likely to have a serious illness requiring hospitalization and more likely to die from COVID-19. Knowing that, it is a commonsense, achievable goal to target isolation policy to that group, including strictly monitoring those who interact with them. Nursing home residents, the highest risk, should be the most straightforward to systematically protect from infected people, given that they already live in confined places with highly restricted entry.

The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.

Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center.


https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-pani c-and-end-the-total-isolation



Totally agree and I have been saying it for weeks. Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip. The other day the state of Maine had like 35 patients TOTAL with covid-19 in their hospitals yet their Governor extended much of their lockdown. I am stunned at the willing acceptance of Governor, Mayoral and health director edicts often with no constitutional or scientific basis and anecdotal stories about random cities in 1918 are not a scientific basis for such drastic measures. We turned a 79 year old scienstist into a reality star who can't pass up an interview all the while a 79 year old man who works 19 hours a day gets to tell everyone over the age of 60 they are in danger. Yet none of these measures protected our folks in nursing homes. Everyone wants to complain about Trump ( and I am no fan ) yet all the Governors and Mayors as well spend all their time telling all of us what an amazing job they and their teams are doing. It is all remarkable.

[Edited on 5/2/2020 by tbomike]


Stephen - 5/2/2020 at 10:52 PM

Have never fully understood the correlation of shutting down commerce and as a way to fight the virus
Aren’t we just making it twice as hard on ourselves? What benefit does a ruined economy have in stopping the spread?
Good read, & re the 1st paragraph, FDR’s words come to mind
“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself”

I say reopen everything Memorial Day wknd - people can still wear masks etc, they can just remove them when they go out to eat, cheer at a game etc, & do social distancing on their own etc

The 6 feet apart/self quarantining/stay at home approach hasn’t been effective - resuscitating/restarting the economy must now take equal priority w/finding a cure imo


tbomike - 5/2/2020 at 11:00 PM

Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?

Food lines a mile long in America’s second-wealthiest state

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/food-lines-a-mile-long-in-americas-second -wealthiest-state/ar-BB13wa7b

Or this?

Pay Cuts, Furloughs, Redeployment for Doctors and Hospital Staff
— Health systems see massive disruption from COVID-19

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85827




nebish - 5/3/2020 at 03:23 PM

When Rowland did his latest round of member clean-up this thread got bumped off the forum, so I'll bring it back in case we want to keep it going.

[Edited on 5/3/2020 by nebish]


Fujirich - 5/3/2020 at 03:51 PM

quote:
Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip.
If you're worried about your personal well-being then don't go to the beach. Simple as that. Others who don't feel threatened should do as they please. "Group think" is a good description. But power hungry politicians (as well as foreign enemies) now see it can be used against us to suppress our freedoms and have us cower at home. A very dangerous precedent.

quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/food-lines-a-mile-long-in-americas-second -wealthiest-state/ar-BB13wa7b

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85827
Not saying it isn't a threat. Just that the response will end up being far worse than the virus itself. These are early reactions to ordering shut downs of businesses and the overall economy. Had we rode it out as we have for many past virus threats, this would not be occurring.


BIGV - 5/3/2020 at 05:00 PM

quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?


Of course it is a public health "threat"...But to what degree?..Anything that can kill is a threat and my heart goes out to anyone who has lost a loved one due to this, the flu, Cancer, heart disease or.....BUT, it does not appear to be the threat the Media and the Gov't are saying.....

We've been played, either out of ignorance, fear or something more sinister. One thing stands above all else to me, there are too many experts in the fields of Government, Health Care & Education who can't seen to agree on anything....


tbomike - 5/3/2020 at 06:19 PM

quote:
quote:
Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip.
If you're worried about your personal well-being then don't go to the beach. Simple as that. Others who don't feel threatened should do as they please. "Group think" is a good description. But power hungry politicians (as well as foreign enemies) now see it can be used against us to suppress our freedoms and have us cower at home. A very dangerous precedent.

quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/food-lines-a-mile-long-in-americas-second -wealthiest-state/ar-BB13wa7b

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85827
Not saying it isn't a threat. Just that the response will end up being far worse than the virus itself. These are early reactions to ordering shut downs of businesses and the overall economy. Had we rode it out as we have for many past virus threats, this would not be occurring.


Not sure but it seems like you don't recognize both my posts were and are in agreement with what you said and the article you posted. This post is just pointing out for the pro lockdown folks that I agree with your points and that post was in furtherance of your points.


tbomike - 5/3/2020 at 06:20 PM

quote:
quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?


Of course it is a public health "threat"...But to what degree?..Anything that can kill is a threat and my heart goes out to anyone who has lost a loved one due to this, the flu, Cancer, heart disease or.....BUT, it does not appear to be the threat the Media and the Gov't are saying.....

We've been played, either out of ignorance, fear or something more sinister. One thing stands above all else to me, there are too many experts in the fields of Government, Health Care & Education who can't seen to agree on anything....


You and fuji who I was posting in agreement with do not seem to have followed what I was getting at.


Fujirich - 5/3/2020 at 09:44 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Dangerous group think has overrun the public. Scared to go to a beach? Get a grip.
If you're worried about your personal well-being then don't go to the beach. Simple as that. Others who don't feel threatened should do as they please. "Group think" is a good description. But power hungry politicians (as well as foreign enemies) now see it can be used against us to suppress our freedoms and have us cower at home. A very dangerous precedent.

quote:
Seriously folks don't think this is a public health threat?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/food-lines-a-mile-long-in-americas-second -wealthiest-state/ar-BB13wa7b

https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85827
Not saying it isn't a threat. Just that the response will end up being far worse than the virus itself. These are early reactions to ordering shut downs of businesses and the overall economy. Had we rode it out as we have for many past virus threats, this would not be occurring.


Not sure but it seems like you don't recognize both my posts were and are in agreement with what you said and the article you posted. This post is just pointing out for the pro lockdown folks that I agree with your points and that post was in furtherance of your points.
I was just adding to what you said - not trying to conflict with it. Sorry it didn't come across better.


Fujirich - 5/3/2020 at 09:51 PM

quote:
Opinion: We Wrecked Our Economy for Nothing

Imagine, if you will, an edict from your Mayor, Governor, the President, or all three. This edict targets you and 30 million other citizens simply because you are a member of a specific economic class or category of worker. Your vocation has been determined to be “non-essential.” The directive is clear. You will forgo your wages for an indeterminate period of time. You have no choice. If you fail to comply, you face fines and/or imprisonment. The stated objectives of all of this, are to preclude the medical system from being overwhelmed and to increase the lifespan of one million people, many of whom would perish within 6 months anyhow from already existing conditions.

This is exactly what has happened. The federal government has encouraged mayors and governors to enact certain “social distancing” guidelines and forbade workers in “non essential’ occupations from earning a paycheck. This has, over the past few months, caused over 30 million people to become newly unemployed and unable to feed their families. This number will continue to rise. It is not much of a reach to believe we could hit 20% unemployment…numbers we haven’t gotten to since the Great Depression.

There is little-to-no actual science behind this draconian decision. The experts told us that by sacrificing the jobs of 30 million people (and still counting) we would “flatten the curve” on new infections and thus keep our hospital system from being overwhelmed. The “experts” and their models have been proven wrong time and again throughout this debacle.

The expected tidal wave never struck the hospital system as a whole. Point of fact, because of deferred procedures put off in order to free up bed space for the expected surge, many hospitals have laid of staff and some have shut their doors…permanently. The United States is now exporting ventilators.

As more and more information comes in, we are seeing that this virus is not nearly as infectious as previously thought, and it is far less deadly. When it comes right down to it, this disease is going to end up with a Mortality Rate at or below our annual flu average. For that, we brought direct harm, pain, and suffering to 30 million other Americans.

The Chicken Little folks supporting Dr. Fauci and COL/Dr. Birx are claiming that we saved a million U.S lives by shutting down our economy. Fine. Let’s do some math. For the sake of argument, let’s agree here that without closing up our economy, the number of U.S. Fatalities would have reached 1.1 Million. Let’s also assume that by invoking Dr. Fauci’s draconian measures, we were able to cut that number down to 100,000 (I chose 1.1M and 100K in order to make the math simpler).

Bottom line? For each life allegedly saved, we as a nation, the states & localities severally, DEMANDED under threat of fines and/or imprisonment, that 30 other (non-essential) American workers forgo their paychecks. We (corporate we) told select classes of people that we were going to essentially deny them the ability to make a living…and without any sort of due process whatsoever.

Basically, the governors and mayors with the encouragement of the federal government denied the civil rights of broad swaths of the American citizenry. They abridged the right to earn a living on the unproven chance that it might save a stranger’s life. What’s worse, it wasn’t like we demanded that all of America make this sacrifice. No. We actually forced the weakest (financially) among us to carry this load. Interestingly, I find anecdotally that the folks most interested in keeping this shutdown in place until we are “perfectly safe,” aren’t the hourly wage, service industry workers who have been forced to shoulder almost this entire burden. Nope. It’s the “essential workers,” people whose occupation allows telecommuting, the media, and, of course, folks on government salaries.

Mind you, none of the above was done via legislative action, which might have made it somewhat more palatable. It was all done via executive orders, big and small. As new data comes in, we are seeing that all of this had little-to-no effect on the spread of the virus nor the number of fatalities. We trampled on the Constitution, destroyed our economy, and wrecked the lives of millions of Americans…for nothing. And we aren’t done yet.
https://www.redstate.com/darth641/2020/05/03/opinion-we-wrecked-our-economy -for-nothing/


BrerRabbit - 5/3/2020 at 10:05 PM

^ That's one way of looking at it. Way I see it the Good Lord pulled the emergency brake and stopped the train because a trestle was out up ahead.


BIGV - 5/3/2020 at 10:58 PM

The latest from Bill Maher

https://youtu.be/28I5WyLp15o


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 12:46 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
One of the most f*cked up posts I've ever wasted 20 seconds of my life on.


Is that how you greet a member we haven't seen for 5 years?


Is that what a member who hasn't been here for five years posts upon his return?

OK, fine. Welcome back Bruce. My 90+ year old family members, affectionately referred to as "geezers", sure are glad about your return

Better?


That's fine. He did refer to himself as a geezer for what it's worth.


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 12:55 AM

quote:
quote:
Have you seen that person, driving in a car by themselves, wearing a mask?
Follow the money.


To all y'all, QUIT STARING AT ME.


I've seen that. I take mine off immediately upon leaving the store. But consider a couple things - maybe the person did not want to touch their face to take the mask off. Or maybe they had somebody in the back seat? Or they just dropped somebody off or are about to pick somebody up?

I just picked up curbside food the other day, the server came to me with a mask on, as she approached I put mine on. Maybe it made her feel a little better. Like I said earlier, if our state is going to make employees here wear masks, I feel I should too in their presence.

The first couple times I saw it I thought it was odd, but people have a right to wear a mask in their car if they want.

By the way, Pence just said in the Fox News virtual town hall "I should've worn the mask at the Mayo Clinic". I appreciate him saying that and admitting he was wrong.


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 12:58 AM

quote:
Any takers? I've only got two testicles!


LOL, no thanks I don't want any part of your testicles!


alanwoods - 5/4/2020 at 01:21 AM

quote:
When Rowland did his latest round of member clean-up this thread got bumped off the forum, so I'll bring it back in case we want to keep it going.

[Edited on 5/3/2020 by nebish]


I haven't been on in a couple days. Did I miss something? I did a quick member search and couldn't find the member name I was searching...


alanwoods - 5/4/2020 at 01:39 AM

Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.

And the shaming practiced by either side is sickening.

I'm going to agree with Vince on this one. We've been played - and played on an unprecedented scale. I don't think sheeple is a bigoted term to use.

When history looks back on this, just like any other historical event is revisited, there will either be heroes or fools. It remains to be seen who will be counted among the fools. Hindsight is always 20-20.

I just want a table full of Mexican food.


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 01:42 AM

quote:
All this hand wringing and fear about getting the virus, spreading the virus, keeping the country shut down, waiting for a cure, etc. will almost certainly be seen in hindsight as one of the stupidest reactions mankind has ever had to a threat. We've let fear overcome reason, and we over-reacted to something that is turning out to be no worse for the majority than an average seasonal flu. While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu. The difference this time is that our insane over-reaction by shutting down most of the world's economy will have more devastating impact to the lives and well being of far more people than the actual illness itself.


"While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu".


The problem is, how do we cope and handle with the groups that require more care and closer attention? There has never been the strain on hospitals and those workers from the normal flu.

Would you agree, that if mitigation was not put into place that cases would've grown, hospitalizations would've grown and deaths would've grown? It gets to a point, what can our healthcare system handle, both in terms of the facilities and beds and the human workers that must tend to these people. And then the morgues, the funeral homes, the cemeteries. It is such a crush in a short period of time on these systems that they become overwhelmed. 67,674 covid-19 deaths at the moment in just 2 months. There is a discrepancy comparing covid deaths to flu deaths, according to this article - it's apples to oranges:

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/comparing-covid-19-deaths -to-flu-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/

I go back and forth on this.

More people are going to be negatively impacted by the economic fallout of this virus than the people directly impacted by the virus. You have to consider the family and loved ones who lost somebody to this virus - you can't really compare that or measure that.

Neither alternative is good. Keep the economy going at the sacrifice of more lives lost. Shut most of the economy down to save more lives. Which one ultimately is better? Before you say the former no matter how unfortunate it is to those people who die and their friends and family left dealing with it, consider this. In the face of more infection, and more death and more demand and strain on the medical system...would it have even been possible to keep the economy going?


What I'm saying is, the fallout from more infection and death would've had a natural drag on the economy and businesses...owners, managers, employees, customers more getting infected. Suppliers dealing with man power shortages. Delays, back orders, capacity and capability issues. More coronavirus sickness would've lead to business interruptions. Even if hospitalizations are about 20% and deaths are something like 5% of confirmed cases (or we can use other metrics), as these numbers would've continually gone up we hadn't tried mitigation there would've been some sort of panic and economic toll that happened anyway. Unless you are of the opinion that we could've kept things opened and not had more cases? If so I'd like to hear you explain it if you don't mind.

It just seems logical, the more people in circulation and more infections present are going to lead to greater infection and as a result more hospitalizations and all the problems in the paragraph above. That just seems likely to me. If you have another view, I'm willing to listen.

The hill article you quoted says the states followed federal government guidelines to shut down nonessential work. Well, some states were going to do this on their own. Many states would not have stood still as their hospitals get flooded. So shut downs would've happened no matter what the federal government wanted as states acted in their own supposed best interest. There is no singular central direction on this. It might look that way, but clearly states are doing whatever they want and I don't think it could've been any other way. So I think it is foolish to think "if only our federal government had a different policy on this everyone would've done X or everyone would've done Y". That never would've happened.

I'm just a normal guy trying to figure this stuff out, so I don't know. I'm not sure you or anyone else really knows what was right or wrong or what is right or wrong now. Maybe you have it all figured out.

Whatever happened behind us is behind us. What I want now is to live with this virus and it's associated risks all while we open up our businesses and increase our activity and interactions. While we do this, I want to be careful because I don't want any reason for the ones running the show to have to tell us to go back into our shells. Maybe it is overcautious, maybe we are acting silly with all the masks and distancing. I don't really care right now. Let's figure out what went wrong later. For now, for the ones comfortable with whatever risks might or might not exist, let's get out and open up. But let's be careful because if we aren't careful and we're wrong it makes anything that we gained from mitigation wasted. There has been a lot of sacrifice paid in different ways. Let's not have it be for wasted.


Fujirich - 5/4/2020 at 02:57 AM

quote:
"While there are certainly groups that require more care and closer attention, the vast majority are at no more risk of dying than they are every year from the flu".

The problem is, how do we cope and handle with the groups that require more care and closer attention? There has never been the strain on hospitals and those workers from the normal flu.
As it turns out, I have a personal experience that has made me more adamant in my views on this in recent weeks.

About three weeks ago, I had some sever abdominal pain that just came out of nowhere. It was the early AM on a Sunday morning, and it was bad enough that I called 911. I had never done that for anything in my life previously, but this scared me to the point of feeling that I needed help. So they come and take me to the ER. Of course I'm thinking; what kind of mess am I getting into because of the virus? Will I go to the regular ER, or has that been reserved only for virus patients, and they'll take me to some other part of the hospital?

So we pull up to the normal ER entrance. Inside, there's no rush of activity. No line of people. No evidence of any strain on the system whatsoever. Its about 6 AM, and you can hear a pin drop. Other than seeing all the staff wearing masks, I see no other patients and note nothing that would say we have a health emergency. This is one of the largest ER facilities on the eastern side of Cincinnati, and it looks like deadsville.

My experience aligns with so many reports of similar conditions all around the country. This thing hasn't over-run our system. It didn't even do so in NYC, where such extraordinary efforts we made to handle a massive need for hospital beds and equipment just a few weeks ago, and almost none of that was needed. Don't get me wrong - I praise the preparation and the effort. I know it will be easy to label this as Monday morning quarterbacking, but from the outset I felt we were over-reacting based on fear instead of real knowledge.


nebish - 5/4/2020 at 03:26 AM

Are you ok Rich? Your stomach pain?

I have heard some stories of this too, about hospitals that are not full, not even half full, not even close to full or closer to empty of covid patients. I have been trying to get a hospital count per county or even per specific hospitals in Ohio and can't find one. Just that our daily hospitalized rate has remained about 1000 patients per day in Ohio hospitals. At one time weeks ago I saw our local hospitals released the number they had, but I have not seen that since.

The natural question becomes, what would the number of hospitalized patients been without mitigation?

Nobody can know.

If Ohio is consistently averaging about 1000 patients in Ohio hospitals per day and if we accept a 20% hospitalization rate (all of this is just on confirmed cases, there ware many unconfirmed cases which lowers the hospitalization and mortality rate)...if Ohio had 5000 more confirmed cases that would lead to 1000 more hospitalizations. Can we handle that? Ohio has about 3600 ICU beds across 236 hospitals. How many have non-covid patients in them already? Not every hospitalized covid patient needs ICU. I see currently under 400 of our about 1000 patients are in ICU. So there is a lot of ICU capacity in the state.

So maybe it never would've happened, the overwhelming? Recalling back a month ago, they feared they wouldn't have enough beds, wouldn't have enough ICU capacity. Where they wrong or did mitigation help us - are both correct?

I think NYC did get overwhelmed. There were patients in hallways, field hospitals that went underutilized, but were still used in some manner. Others can talk more to that, but it was really bad in NYC. Even if beds didn't run out in the system, there certainly is an exhaustion for the workers having to tend these very sick patients. The workers are burning out - so that in a sense is a different kind of overwhelmed.

Could it have got bad in Cincy, or Columbus or Cleveland? Surely in some rural areas that lack proper medical facilities if they had an outbreak could've gotten bad.

Ohio has about 20,000 cases to date. We just don't know, and never will know, what the case count would've been without mitigation. The models were mostly wrong...and so many models, so many different estimates. The only way to find out is to pick one course of action and see what happens.

Pretty sure damned if you do and damned if you don't. Go with extreme mitigation and everyone complains about the sky has fallen on the economy...and other things with the food lines and mental health issues. But if you allow it to just run through society, everyone complains that we just let people die instead of taking appropriate action to protect the vulnerable and limit the spread.

The right thing would be to strike a balance...which is what I'm about trying to do right now. Could we have had a better balance back in March? Who knows, in the moment, it's hard to tell and it is risky either way. The safer play was to error on saving lives and limiting infection spread. Was that the right one?

[Edited on 5/4/2020 by nebish]


Fujirich - 5/4/2020 at 10:06 AM

quote:
Are you ok Rich? Your stomach pain?
Yeah, I'm fine - thanks for asking.

They thought it might have been something related to my gallbladder, but scans and tests showed nothing. It was about 4 hours of intense pain, the likes of which I've never felt. In the past, I've had part of my intestine pinched into a hole in my abdominal wall that had me writhing in pain on the floor, and had the joy of kidney stones. Neither of which had me thinking 911. But this did. Ironically, like both of those experiences, it came as quickly as it went.

I'm chalking it up to fried chicken the night before.


BrerRabbit - 5/4/2020 at 10:26 AM

^ Scary ride fuji glad you made it.


nebish - 5/5/2020 at 10:13 PM

I've paid less and less attention to all national news related to virus cases, plans to reopen or extended mitigation orders.

I have paid closer attention to Ohio's data.

Since Ohio's peak of 1380 new cases on April 19th ( a high 3-day peak due to widespread prison testing), 12 of the last 17 days have seen a decreased number of cases day-over-day. We actually hit a low of 362 new cases, but the last 10 days have ticked up and plateaued perhaps stalling our downward trajectory. Today's reported new cases were 495. Our high 7 day average on 4/21 was 921. Our low 7 day average was 435 on 4/28. Our current 7 day average is 600. Our high 14 day average was just on 5/1 at 688 avg new cases per day, current 14 day average is 517 - by this weekend that should go down substantially as the peak days will fall off the average range.

We have tested about 5000 more people last week compared to the week prior. Positive cases will go up as testing goes up, but % of positive results are decreasing over the last week (9% positive results in the May 5 data, 16% positive on 4/29, our peak day positive results was 20-40% due to the prison testing).

Daily statewide hospitalizations have remained 1000-1100 for 5 weeks with no substantial increase or decrease. ICU patients have dropped steadily from a high of 524 early April to 402 as of today.

Interesting, my county has the 7th most cases in the state and 3rd most deaths. Mahoning County has a population of about 228,000 people. Our new cases averaged about 20 per day most of April, sometimes a little lower, however 2 of the last 3 days have seen a new spike making the current 7 day average of 30 per day. New hospitalizations are averaging just 2 per day, down from about about 6 per day 3 weeks ago.


PhotoRon286 - 5/6/2020 at 03:17 AM

quote:
Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.


I just want a table full of Mexican food.


I just want my youngest son to not die of this sh!t while he's working on Long Island spelling the ambulance crews who have been handling this for two months.

I'm such a self centered azzhole.


piacere - 5/6/2020 at 10:14 AM

quote:
quote:
Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.


I just want a table full of Mexican food.


I just want my youngest son to not die of this sh!t while he's working on Long Island spelling the ambulance crews who have been handling this for two months.

I'm such a self centered azzhole.



Just a concerned father. Good on him, ballsy move doing what he's doing. In the years to come, he'll be telling your grandkids about the experience.
Hang tough.


gina - 5/6/2020 at 11:58 PM

quote:
quote:
Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.


I just want a table full of Mexican food.


I just want my youngest son to not die of this sh!t while he's working on Long Island spelling the ambulance crews who have been handling this for two months.

I'm such a self centered azzhole.



The precautions the ER docs use are to change clothes immediately after work before leaving the hospital. So they leave the hospital in clean clothes not contaminating their car. The clothes they arrived to work in and wore all day are put in a plastic bag and put in their trunk till they can be washed. If they have a house they leave them in the garage till they can wash them. The docs and nurses who go home in scrubs worn all day take them off outside their house, either in the garage or on the patio. They do not bring them in the house unless they are in a plastic bag going to be washed immediately. No shoes go in the house. Put them in a plastic bag have other shoes or slippers to use in the house. You have to separate potentially contaminated clothes.

The idea is to leave the house or apt or hotel in clean clothes and come home in clean clothes. That minimizes bringing any germs into where you are living so you are not breathing anything Infectious while there. When outside or at work, masks. Wash hands as often as possible. Get sleep eat at least one good meal and if you can a breakfast sandwich.

Doctors are in the germiest places, yet they stay safe. He should be fine.


stormyrider - 5/7/2020 at 02:42 AM

Hopefully they have enough protective gear.
Those guys are rock stars


nebish - 5/7/2020 at 02:04 PM



quote:
“If you notice, 18% of the people came from nursing homes, less than 1% came from jail or prison, 2% came from the homeless population, 2% from other congregate facilities, but 66% of the people were at home, which is shocking to us,” Cuomo said.

“This is a surprise: Overwhelmingly, the people were at home,” he added. “We thought maybe they were taking public transportation, and we’ve taken special precautions on public transportation, but actually no, because these people were literally at home.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov-cuomo-says-its-shocking-most-new-cor onavirus-hospitalizations-are-people-staying-home.html



So staying home doesn't make you safe?


PhotoRon286 - 5/7/2020 at 10:52 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Myself, I am astounded at how compliant the general public has been in giving up their basic freedoms. It's really scary.


I just want a table full of Mexican food.


I just want my youngest son to not die of this sh!t while he's working on Long Island spelling the ambulance crews who have been handling this for two months.

I'm such a self centered azzhole.



Just a concerned father. Good on him, ballsy move doing what he's doing. In the years to come, he'll be telling your grandkids about the experience.
Hang tough.


He works for AMR.

Central NY has a large number of first responders who are volunteering to go downstate for a two week deployment.

I talked to him today, he says they probably won't extend his assignment.

He did say though that his company is expecting to send crews to the South and Midwest after their expected increases in cases after reopening way too soon.


tbomike - 5/8/2020 at 03:41 PM

HMM.

Woodstock Occurred in the Middle of a Pandemic

https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic /?fbclid=IwAR1ouz2QG00QATnpUUSXcT_XThlDgAqppncc265FGRSZqIKBbUTlqU7H054


nebish - 5/8/2020 at 05:20 PM

quote:
HMM.

Woodstock Occurred in the Middle of a Pandemic

https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic /?fbclid=IwAR1ouz2QG00QATnpUUSXcT_XThlDgAqppncc265FGRSZqIKBbUTlqU7H054


An estimated 100,000 Americans died in the 1968-69 H3N2 pandemic (1mill worldwide).

Time for further reading, thanks for the link.



[Edited on 5/8/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 5/8/2020 at 06:31 PM

AIER excerpt:

quote:
The only actions governments took was to collect data, watch and wait, encourage testing and vaccines, and so on. The medical community took the primary responsibility for disease mitigation, as one might expect. It was widely assumed that diseases require medical not political responses.


referenced WSJ article excerpts:

quote:
In 1969, the British postal and train services and French manufacturing suffered large disruptions from flu-induced absenteeism. In West Germany, garbage collectors had to bury the dead because of a lack of undertakers.

In affected countries, some schools had to close as teachers fell ill. In less than two years, over 30,000 people died in France and Britain, and up to 60,000 in both parts of divided Germany, according to recent estimates...

Pierre Dellamonica, a French physician who started his medical career in 1969 as the epidemic was raging, says dead patients were piling up in his hospital in the south of France. But doctors and the public were fatalistic in accepting the death toll, he said.

Mortality rates for the 1968 pandemic were significantly lower than those of Covid-19, said Susan Craddock, professor at the Institute for Global Studies of the University of Minnesota. And without 24-hour news coverage, online resources and social media to heighten public anxiety, politicians were under less pressure to act than they are today, she said.

“Today, medical progress has pushed up life expectancy,” Mr. Thiessen said. While this has heightened people’s sense of security, he said, it has reduced the public’s acceptance of disease and death, especially among the most vulnerable.

In the 1960s and ’70s, the carnage of World War II was a recent memory. Life expectancy was significantly lower than today and such diseases as polio, diphtheria, measles or tuberculosis were part of everyday life.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/forgotten-pandemic-offers-contrast-to-todays-c oronavirus-lockdowns-11587720625




Has our tolerance of death shifted?

Have medical advances spoiled us to think that we shouldn't be subjected to viruses that impacted prior generations?

Are we more compassionate now than we were just some 50 years ago?

It is rather striking to compare what is happening between the two viruses.


2112 - 5/8/2020 at 06:40 PM

quote:
quote:
HMM.

Woodstock Occurred in the Middle of a Pandemic

https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic /?fbclid=IwAR1ouz2QG00QATnpUUSXcT_XThlDgAqppncc265FGRSZqIKBbUTlqU7H054


An estimated 100,000 Americans died in the 1968-69 H3N2 pandemic (1mill worldwide).

Time for further reading, thanks for the link.



[Edited on 5/8/2020 by nebish]


They are not even similar. The 1968-69 pandemic had 100,000 deaths in a period of well over a year when nothing was shut down. Compare that to the number of deaths that have taken place in just 3 months dispite closing everything down. Apples and oranges.


nebish - 5/8/2020 at 06:49 PM

The US population was smaller.

100,000 deaths / 200,000,000 population = .05% of US population died

76,101 deaths / 330,000,000 population = .023% of US has population died to date

Granted the H3N2 death count was over a two wave period. We have yet to make it through our first wave, let alone a second.

If we take the .05% of US population that died during the 1968/69 and apply it to today's population that comes out to 165,000 deaths.

The two may end up being comparable, no?


BrerRabbit - 5/8/2020 at 07:13 PM

quote:
staying home doesn't make you safe?


The "home" stat on the chart is the only one with a population that circulates, my takeaway is your chart shows that transmission is occurring at stores and any other essential public contact point.

That or it is crawling out of the walls.

Which means if it is this bad under sheltering, it is gonna explode when we start up. Seventh wave, dudes, get on your boards and start paddling!

[Edited on 5/8/2020 by BrerRabbit]


2112 - 5/8/2020 at 08:02 PM

quote:
The US population was smaller.

100,000 deaths / 200,000,000 population = .05% of US population died

76,101 deaths / 330,000,000 population = .023% of US has population died to date

Granted the H3N2 death count was over a two wave period. We have yet to make it through our first wave, let alone a second.

If we take the .05% of US population that died during the 1968/69 and apply it to today's population that comes out to 165,000 deaths.

The two may end up being comparable, no?


No, although you have a good point about the population, this pandemic has been over a period of just a few months with EXTREME countermeasures. The 68/69 was for well over a year (close to 2 years I think) with pretty much no countermeasures at all. This virus spreads much more quickly and easily.


Fujirich - 5/8/2020 at 09:23 PM

quote:
quote:
The US population was smaller.

100,000 deaths / 200,000,000 population = .05% of US population died

76,101 deaths / 330,000,000 population = .023% of US has population died to date

Granted the H3N2 death count was over a two wave period. We have yet to make it through our first wave, let alone a second.

If we take the .05% of US population that died during the 1968/69 and apply it to today's population that comes out to 165,000 deaths.

The two may end up being comparable, no?
No, although you have a good point about the population, this pandemic has been over a period of just a few months with EXTREME countermeasures. The 68/69 was for well over a year (close to 2 years I think) with pretty much no countermeasures at all. This virus spreads much more quickly and easily.
Respectfully disagree. Take away the densely populated areas where the impact has been the worst, and this has been almost a non-event. Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken. A lot of that added population has been in the exact cities where the density has caused the worst outcomes. More population density = geometrically greater spread.


stormyrider - 5/8/2020 at 09:54 PM

agree that greater population = greater spread

we don't know yet how much of a non event is will be in non dense areas
all we know is number of cases so far (which is not going down) with the intervention of social distancing. we don't know what would have happened if we didn't restrict activity or what will happen once things open up.

I hope my fears are not realized.

we have already lost more Americans than we did in Viet Nam


Fujirich - 5/8/2020 at 10:00 PM

quote:
we have already lost more Americans than we did in Viet Nam
Not to downplay the importance of any lives, but that happens nearly every year to just the regular flu.


stormyrider - 5/8/2020 at 10:09 PM

In some years, yes but not all

quote:
Overall, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/how-many-people-die-of-the- flu-every-year



this has been a few months

population density doesn't just include cities - for example look at meat packing plants and pork processing plants

for that matter, my step son is stationed at Fort Bragg, NC. The base has been in isolation for a month, yet my step son and his roomate have it.

[Edited on 5/8/2020 by stormyrider]


BrerRabbit - 5/8/2020 at 10:37 PM

So let me get this straight, we aren't dropping like flies, so the precautions were a joke.

That logic irritates me the same way as anytime I do the heavy lifting then someone finishes the job and takes the credit. This has been a monumental effort, and it has helped.

How about instead of all the bellyaching and naysaying and doubt-sowing say BRAVO AMERICA YOU ROCKED THIS ! Good job all.


Fujirich - 5/9/2020 at 01:12 AM

quote:
So let me get this straight, we aren't dropping like flies, so the precautions were a joke.
Not a joke at all - well intentioned obviously.

But a line was crossed when officials dictated that the people least able to afford an economic calamity were non-essential, and had to forego their livelihoods for something the human race has encountered many times in the past - a new virus. Unproven models predicted results to which massive fear was then applied. Tinpot dictators sprung up enacting executive orders suspending Constitutional rights, which should have caused a mass rejection of said orders. But no, the majority cowered.

I think its far too early to say we "rocked" anything. We haven't remotely begun to see the economic and personal toll this is going to take on the country.

Life is a risk. Events and evolution selects who survives or not. That's why we have an immune system that fights off this crap for most of us. Its now obvious that locking ones self away hasn't prevented it from infecting many. But the overwhelming majority who were infected have survived. Just like past virus episodes.

I'm more concerned that we'll end up with 30-50 million (or more) in disastrous economic shape than if we lost 100,000-200,000 mostly elderly, probably already compromised individuals. I know how harsh that sounds. Heck, I'm old enough to be in that latter group. But common sense has to prevail over fear, and unfortunately we've missed that boat. The cure may end up being far worse than the illness.


BrerRabbit - 5/9/2020 at 01:50 AM

Well, like I always say - "We ain't fireproof but we are doing asbestos we can."


stormyrider - 5/9/2020 at 02:43 AM

quote:
100,000-200,000 mostly elderly,


https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and- S/9bhg-hcku
I can't get the table to copy / paste here but mostly elderly doesn't mean only elderly (not that those lives are less valuble). Because younger people are lower risk it doesn't mean they are low risk. A small percentage of 70,000 people is still a lot of people. Doctors, nurses and other hospital workers died taking care of patients with this.
Sorry, I can't stand aside and let Darwin take care of it.

I get the economic pain. I know people who lost jobs, are afraid of losing businesses, etc. My wife got furloughed, friends got laid off. It sucks. Along with the economic pain of people losing their jobs is the economic pain of taking care of a ton of sick people and making sure the people that take care of them are safe.


nebish - 5/9/2020 at 03:14 AM

People seek understanding...what is happening, why, what can we compare it to. Comparisons are always happening in life...'this sounds like that', 'this reminds me of that', 'this is kinda like that other time', and so on.

Sometimes things aren't really comparable, but it helps us understand variables and cause and effects.

There are some comparisons between 1968/69 H3N2 and Covid and there are some differences. For one, we have confirmed Covid deaths - I know even that is in dispute, some say they are under-reported, some say they are over-reported. Whatever, we have a confirmed death statistic. When the CDC comes up with flu deaths, they are estimates, not confirmed. And I don't know about H3N2 from 51 years ago, but when they issue annual estimates for deaths now, those include pneumonia. The figures I see from the 1968/69 pandemic all say "estimated". Maybe they're high, maybe they're low. Comparing estimated anything to confirmed something is problematic. 2112 raises the timeframe difference and the open nature of life vs our mitigated life now, noted.

Bad things have happened before, and we got past it. What can we draw upon from what happened before and apply to what is happening now?

Real time images and media exposure are powerful. If there were photos and videos of the Germans stocking dead bodies in subway tunnels because people were dying so fast during the Hong Kong flu pandemic all over the TV no doubt that would've had an impact, as in "what, that can come here, is here, what are we going to do?". Which is what happened when we saw the dire situation in Italy.

Nobody wanted what happened in Italy to happen here. Italy didn't want it "America this is coming to you". Maybe our nature is to be more reactionary now, maybe our society is more in need of somebody to save us and less accepting of the dangers that might be around the corner.

The debate on what should've happened and if it was the right approach or too far (or not far enough) will be argued for the rest of our lives, and beyond.

I have no problem with the actions any of our governors took. It's done. Actions were taken and outcomes have been determined. It can't be undone. Figuring out what to do in the face of pending chaos and death is difficult, especially when people are looking to their leaders and asking "what are you going to do".

So ok, we've done that.

And as I've said before, now we have to learn to live with this virus. What did I hear somebody covid-19 and social distancing and all the measures that come with it might be with us not just til 2021, but 2022. That was a scientist, so what, you have to listen to the scientists right? We'll just put all our hopes and dreams and financial needs in your hands dear scientist, we won't do anything "dangerous" until after 2022. I mean WTF are we supposed to do? Wait for a vaccine I guess. Just ordered to stay home and wait til, who knows when for that.

We have to adapt and live with this virus. Yes more infections will happen. Yes more people will die. All we can do is take precautions to limit those outcomes.

Different places are different and I don't know what is going on everywhere and I'm not going to speak for every state out there.

You have to look at your case count, your % of positive/negative infections, your hospitalizations, your ICU rate, your medical facilities, capacity and personnel, you have to be able to contract trace. All of that needs factored and people have to make a decision what and when to make the next move.

We did what was asked of us, we have "flattened the curve". We have allowed PPE and equipment to build up. We have bought time for the medical researchers to investigate therapeutics and treatments and start trials on vaccines. We have put plexiglass and dividers up at places of employment. We have limited capacity in businesses. We have people wearing masks. We have disinfecting and frequent cleaning of surfaces. We've learned to do curb-side pick-up. We don't hug, we don't handshake, we try and keep distance from others. People are wearing gloves at work, to shop, when on public transportation. We don't let visitors into hospitals or congregate living facilities. In some cases have 14 day quarantine orders for people who travel to our states.

We have done about all we can do to adjust to this contagious disease. Some people will be cautious, some people won't. I said before, we'll get what we get, it will be what it will be like everything else in life.

Even California is ready to opensome 70% of their economy. Ohio will be in the 80-90% open range in a couple weeks.

It's time to try something else. If people feel safer staying in their homes, fine, stay in your home. People have to make choices and understand whatever risks there are. If you don't like those risks, then take measures to minimize said risk.

Whatever is going to happen will happen. We're prepared now to know what we are up against. Two months ago we didn't know what was about to happen. Let's use what we know now and take the next step, and then another, and then another. Everyone is doing it. Not just USA, not just Republican Governors. This is happening.


stormyrider - 5/9/2020 at 01:07 PM

Well said
The problem is that we are in a black hole in that we don’t have enough data

Not enough diagnostic tests
Not enough antibody tests
We don’t even know for sure what the meaning of having antibodies is regarding immunity we think people would be immune, but we don’t know
You can feel great and still be contagious

The greatest risk of catching the disease is if you are in a closed space for a long time, ie store worker, factory worker, church/synagogue attendee

So as we open, please wear a mask. You will be protecting others. The other people wearing masks will protect you


tcatanesi - 5/9/2020 at 03:05 PM

quote:
Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken.

Now that statement just pisses me off.

The Trump administration's response to the coronavirus crisis has been an absolute chaotic disaster and these extreme measures had to be put in place because:

TRUMP FAILED TO TAKE THIS AS SERIOUSLY AS HE WAS BEING ADVISED TO. OVER. AND. OVER.


MartinD28 - 5/9/2020 at 03:16 PM

quote:
quote:
Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken.

Now that statement just pisses me off.

The Trump administration's response to the coronavirus crisis has been an absolute chaotic disaster and these extreme measures had to be put in place because:

TRUMP FAILED TO TAKE THIS AS SERIOUSLY AS HE WAS BEING ADVISED TO. OVER. AND. OVER.


The good news is that in the battle of the brains between Dr. Trump & Dr. Fauci, Dr. Trump says Covid19 will just disappear. I don't even know why Trump lets Dr. Fauci hang around since Trump knows more. Probably should have gotten rid of Dr. Fauci just like he got rid of the NSC Pandemic Unit. It's all a hoax anyway, right?

Trump says coronavirus will disappear without a vaccine. Fauci has said the opposite.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-says-coronavirus-will-disappear-w ithout-a-15257748.php


BrerRabbit - 5/9/2020 at 03:56 PM

quote:
Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken.


quote:
Now that statement just pisses me off.


Same here. Don't mind what he says, he is "cowering". In one line it negates all our effort. Really toxic stuff.

You gotta look at where these types are coming from to not get angry when they say this stuff, but view it as a symptom of a greater threat than any virus. The same post declares that what I see as a great and commendable unity of effort is a "tyranny by tinpot dictators" and that we are "cowering".

Speak for yourself man, cower away if that's your kink. Most of us get it, see the common sense, realize this is a real danger and are toughing this out and trying to stay positive, and yes, win or lose, we are rockin it.

People will do and say anything when they feel cornered. I find this more concerning than death by Covid. Their arrogant and self-centered worldview does not equip them for civic empathy in the rush for the lifeboats.



[Edited on 5/9/2020 by BrerRabbit]


BIGV - 5/9/2020 at 04:31 PM

quote:
quote:
Certainly not worthy of the ridiculous measures we've taken.


quote:
Now that statement just pisses me off.


Really toxic stuff.
Most of us get it, see the common sense
Their arrogant and self-centered worldview


Once again, there is only one way to see things and to disagree requires labeling


tbomike - 5/9/2020 at 04:40 PM

Interesting numbers. From the Heritage Foundation so some might dismiss them but.


With many state and local governments starting to relax stay-at-home orders, it’s instructive to examine just how concentrated the spread of COVID-19 has been in the U.S.

Although all U.S. states have reported cases of COVID-19, the distribution of the cases and deaths has remained heavily concentrated in a small number of states, and among a small number of counties within all states.

For instance, as of May 4, just 10 states account for 70% of all U.S. cases and 77% of all deaths. Together, New York and New Jersey alone account for 38% of all cases and 48% of total COVID-19 deaths.
ust five states—New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Illinois, and California—account for 54% of all of the confirmed cases in the U.S. and 61% of all coronavirus deaths.

These state-level figures do not, however, adequately describe the concentrated nature of the spread of COVID-19.

As the first chart shows, the 30 counties with the most COVID-19 cases account for 50% of all the cases in the U.S. (and 57% of all deaths). That is, just 1% of the counties in the U.S. are responsible for half of the country’s coronavirus cases and more than half of the deaths.

Of those 30 counties, 24 are in the Northeast corridor between Philadelphia and Boston, the passageway served by a commuter railway system that runs through Manhattan. Overall, just 11% of the counties in the U.S. contain nearly 95% of all the COVID-19 deaths.

Just as important, as the second chart shows, 52% of all U.S. counties have had zero COVID-19 deaths as of May 4.

Also as of May 4, 13 states have deaths that remain unallocated to respective counties. At most, those allocations could reduce the number of zero-death counties by 2 percentage points.

The chart also illustrates that 66% of all U.S. counties have no more than one coronavirus death, 80% have five or fewer, 86% have 10 or fewer, and 89% have fewer than 15.

Put another way, only about 10% of the counties in the U.S. have more than 15 or more COVID-19 deaths, and throughout the epidemic, the spread of COVID has remained highly concentrated in a handful of geographic locations in the U.S.


BrerRabbit - 5/9/2020 at 05:11 PM

quote:
Once again, there is only one way to see things and to disagree requires labeling


Once again, you label my personal views as labeling, and pin the label on me that I think my viewpoint is the only way to see things.

Follow the thread man, I posted a neutral comment in support of the national effort, throwing some kudos out because nobody ever does. Poster responds by saying we are all cowering, and that my praise is in question.

I clearly responded in my personal disagreement that I recognize this other view and encouraged him, as well as you, to enjoy your viewpoint but to speak for yourself.

I am not trying to speak for you - I am well aware that you and Fuji have labled me a cowering sheeple unable to think for himself. And that label is OK, although I don't accept it. If it makes you feel better to look down your nose at people by labeling them sheeple, then have fun, it ain't me.

If someone jumps me I will respond in kind. My first post here was neutral and positive.

If you don't like it, JUST WALK AWAY. I know you are hurtin for some Skydog but Im not interested, pick your fights elsewhere.




[Edited on 5/9/2020 by BrerRabbit]


BIGV - 5/9/2020 at 05:35 PM

quote:
quote:
Once again, there is only one way to see things and to disagree requires labeling


Once again, you label my personal views as labeling, and assume that I think my viewpoint is the only way to see things.


You will characterize things with your own sense as will most here, forgive me for wondering why a simple "I disagree" is not used more here and yes, I see phrases like "Really toxic stuff"..."Most of us get it, see the common sense"..."Their arrogant and self-centered worldview"...as condescending and a bloated sense of righteousness. And no, not looking for confrontation, but like you, just expressing an opinion about an opinion.


BrerRabbit - 5/9/2020 at 05:43 PM

blah blah blah


BIGV - 5/9/2020 at 05:46 PM

quote:
blah blah blah


Fair enough


stormyrider - 5/9/2020 at 08:33 PM

This is a good read

Non political

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them


cyclone88 - 5/10/2020 at 01:13 PM

quote:
https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoi d-them

Thanks for posting Dr. Bromage's observations. She really makes the point that it's not just the proximity to someone who may be sick or asymptomatic & sick, but the duration & type of exposure. The fact that singing is significantly more contagious than talking or breathing was surprising (unless one had given it significant thought). The example of 60 sickened people out of a 64-person choir singing for 2.5 hours in an enclosed space was harsh; certainly explains why clubs w/live music are hotspots.

Hard to find politics in useful facts unless one rejects all science.


nebish - 5/10/2020 at 01:27 PM

quote:
Trump says coronavirus will disappear without a vaccine. Fauci has said the opposite.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trump-says-coronavirus-will-disappear-w ithout-a-15257748.php


I would definitely take something Fauci said more seriously than Trump. Even though Fauci did not seem to predict the seriousness of this virus in his comments earlier this year, that doesn't make him less of an expert to me, it just shows me understanding what can or will happen with a new virus is difficult.

My question is, what if this does go away...like SARS did? SARS-CoV1 went away without a vaccine. Nobody has been infected with the original SARS since 2004. It went away.

Trump shouldn't say he knows this one will go away, Trump shouldn't say or do a lot of things.

There is chance that if Covid-19, SARS-CoV-2, follows the 2003 SARS-CoV-1...it could go away.

Maybe there are some comparisons out there between the two viruses that explains why it could or why it couldn't go away.

Your point is taken, Trump giving this kind of opinion is pure speculation or even wishful thinking. But at the same time, it is possible if history is any example.


nebish - 5/10/2020 at 01:51 PM

quote:
Interesting numbers. From the Heritage Foundation so some might dismiss them but.


With many state and local governments starting to relax stay-at-home orders, it’s instructive to examine just how concentrated the spread of COVID-19 has been in the U.S.

Although all U.S. states have reported cases of COVID-19, the distribution of the cases and deaths has remained heavily concentrated in a small number of states, and among a small number of counties within all states.

For instance, as of May 4, just 10 states account for 70% of all U.S. cases and 77% of all deaths. Together, New York and New Jersey alone account for 38% of all cases and 48% of total COVID-19 deaths.
ust five states—New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Illinois, and California—account for 54% of all of the confirmed cases in the U.S. and 61% of all coronavirus deaths.

These state-level figures do not, however, adequately describe the concentrated nature of the spread of COVID-19.

As the first chart shows, the 30 counties with the most COVID-19 cases account for 50% of all the cases in the U.S. (and 57% of all deaths). That is, just 1% of the counties in the U.S. are responsible for half of the country’s coronavirus cases and more than half of the deaths.

Of those 30 counties, 24 are in the Northeast corridor between Philadelphia and Boston, the passageway served by a commuter railway system that runs through Manhattan. Overall, just 11% of the counties in the U.S. contain nearly 95% of all the COVID-19 deaths.

Just as important, as the second chart shows, 52% of all U.S. counties have had zero COVID-19 deaths as of May 4.

Also as of May 4, 13 states have deaths that remain unallocated to respective counties. At most, those allocations could reduce the number of zero-death counties by 2 percentage points.

The chart also illustrates that 66% of all U.S. counties have no more than one coronavirus death, 80% have five or fewer, 86% have 10 or fewer, and 89% have fewer than 15.

Put another way, only about 10% of the counties in the U.S. have more than 15 or more COVID-19 deaths, and throughout the epidemic, the spread of COVID has remained highly concentrated in a handful of geographic locations in the U.S.




Here is the link for this, there are some stories linked within and a couple charts accompanying the story:
https://www.heritage.org/public-health/commentary/over-half-us-counties-hav e-had-no-covid-19-deaths

tbomike, I don't think you yourself have looked at heritage foundation stories very often, right? Hey, let's look at all the different angles on this...left, right, middle, independent, good information can come from different sources to provide insight. And then we have to sort through the BS too, because it's out there. Breaking down the statistics and demographic interests me.

According to the NY Times, 35% of Covid deaths in the US have come from nursing home facilities.

I remember when I was a kid there was a stigma with nursing homes, I remember my grandma saying in the 1980s "Don't put me in a home". Elderly did not want to go to the limited number of "homes" that were around back then. Instead many choose to stay in their own houses or moved in with family who could look after them. By the time the mid 90s rolled around, my other grandma willingly went to a new nursing home facility many of her friends were choosing to go to.

So back during the Hong Kong flu, comparing that to now, there was no widespread senior living industry like there is now. And how unfortunate and sad when this virus gets into those buildings of vulnerable populations of our parents and grandparents. Just as we have higher density population centers now in our country, we also have more congregate living centers now. And, which has been noted already, our life expectancy has increased, but that doesn't mean we are a healthier population as a whole, because we are not healthier.

My mind just wonders about all these things, like if Covid-19 had hit in 1968/69 would the deaths been any different than what they estimate was 100,000 back then or would the death rate remained about the same? And by the same token, if the Hong Kong flu from 68/69 had hit now, would it produce similar infections and deaths to what we have now because our society is more vulnerable now than it was then?

Life is different now, society has changed, our vulnerabilities have changed.


nebish - 5/10/2020 at 01:55 PM

NYT story on nursing home infections and deaths. Nearly 20 states have half or more of their deaths stemming from nursing homes.

I'm not making any comment implied or otherwise, just submitting the data.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/09/us/coronavirus-cases-nursing -homes-us.html

[Edited on 5/10/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 5/10/2020 at 02:11 PM

quote:
This is a good read

Non political

https://erinbromage.wixsite.com/covid19/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them


Excellent. Very informative. Reinforces the use of masks.

One thing to mention, it doesn't take away from the essence of the restaurant infection example, I think the story appeared in the NYT, the 4 people who became infected dining at the known infected person's table could've been infected at some point earlier due to previous exposure and contact with A1.

Otherwise, I hope everyone reads that to get an understanding of what risks you put yourself at in what settings and how the virus might or might not spread.


stormyrider - 5/10/2020 at 04:45 PM

Glad you guys like it, I found it very informative.
I don’t think he mentioned one of the 1st (if not the 1st) known outbreaks in the Boston area. There was the infamous Biogen meeting. One guy travelled from Italy and infected several others in the meeting, some of the then got on a plane and travelled elsewhere. Just google Biogen meeting for details
Today there is a report of an outbreak in Pasadena at a birthday party- some guy was coughing without a mask
My fear is as we relax, we forget social distancing and masks- then boom.
It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that someone travels from a rural location with few or no cases to a meeting somewhere, gets infected, goes home and attends church/ meeting/ party whatever, then an outbreak starts. Indoor Crowded places make me nervous. My synagogue has services on Zoom for that reason.


MartinD28 - 5/10/2020 at 06:32 PM

quote:
Glad you guys like it, I found it very informative.
I don’t think he mentioned one of the 1st (if not the 1st) known outbreaks in the Boston area. There was the infamous Biogen meeting. One guy travelled from Italy and infected several others in the meeting, some of the then got on a plane and travelled elsewhere. Just google Biogen meeting for details
Today there is a report of an outbreak in Pasadena at a birthday party- some guy was coughing without a mask
My fear is as we relax, we forget social distancing and masks- then boom.
It’s not beyond the realm of possibility that someone travels from a rural location with few or no cases to a meeting somewhere, gets infected, goes home and attends church/ meeting/ party whatever, then an outbreak starts. Indoor Crowded places make me nervous. My synagogue has services on Zoom for that reason.


Good post. Thx.

It just goes to show how easily transmission is. These days I'm going out to the bare minimal places I have to go. Whenever I do I always wear a mask. I wish others would. One of my daughter's friends went to the store the other day & said she got the death stare from others at the florist. She said she didn't know why because she said she's Covid free. BTW - the friend hasn't been tested.

The next month or so should give a good idea of impact of relaxing closures & the correlation to cases and deaths reported.


LUKE - 5/10/2020 at 10:55 PM

Blind leadin the blind round this place.


MarkRamsey - 5/11/2020 at 12:23 AM

Fauci, Redfield, and Hahn are all in self quarantine. Pence is "distancing". But the rest of you schlepps get back to work! MAGA!!!


Jerry - 5/11/2020 at 07:26 PM

quote:
quote:
To all y'all, QUIT STARING AT ME.


Keep it on, man. Believe me we would stare at you worse if we could see your face! Damn, man you should sign up as an extra for The Walking Dead!


You did know that it's filmed in central Georgia?


PhotoRon286 - 5/11/2020 at 10:08 PM

quote:
Blind leadin the blind round this place.



Says the expert on infectious diseases.


StratDal - 5/11/2020 at 11:00 PM

"A worker infected 533 others with coronavirus at a factory in Ghana, president says"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/11/africa/ghana-factory-coronavirus-infection-i ntl/index.html

Granted it's Ghana and it's working dynamics are much different the U.S. but it's still something to consider.


nebish - 5/12/2020 at 02:06 AM

quote:
"A worker infected 533 others with coronavirus at a factory in Ghana, president says"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/11/africa/ghana-factory-coronavirus-infection-i ntl/index.html

Granted it's Ghana and it's working dynamics are much different the U.S. but it's still something to consider.




That is pretty crazy! I've searched for some other sources with more detail.

Doubt that place had any safety measures in place.

Read Ghana GDP expected to fall to lowest level in 37 years.


nebish - 5/12/2020 at 02:08 AM

4913 of our cases have come from meat packing plants as of May 1st.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6918e3.htm?s_cid=mm6918e3_x


BrerRabbit - 5/12/2020 at 02:13 AM

^ Strikes me as significant data - maybe it is carried in meat. Or some connect with meat. Supposedly started in animal matter. Worth checking up on anyway.


PhotoRon286 - 5/14/2020 at 12:54 AM

quote:
^ Strikes me as significant data - maybe it is carried in meat. Or some connect with meat. Supposedly started in animal matter. Worth checking up on anyway.


If true we better hope old luke isn't serving his BFF Dickey any tainted BBQ.


BrerRabbit - 5/14/2020 at 02:50 AM

I'll have one coronachada please, a covidilla and a corona beer too


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 01:54 AM

Here is what has happened in Ohio:

May 1 – outpatient elective medical procedures allowed to resume (includes dental and veterinary)

May 4 – construction, manufacturing and distribution that had halted, could resume. Also general office environments can reopen.

May 12 – retail stores and service companies reopen (retail had been allowed to do appointment only from May 1st until now).

May 15 – restaurants and bars open for outside dining only – additionally, hair salons, barbershops, day spas, nail salons, tanning facilities, massage parlors, tattoo and piercing shops allowed to open

May 21 – inside restaurant dining, state park camp grounds (some private camp grounds with long-term or annually leased spots have been allowed to open)

May 22 – horse racing can resume without spectators (racinos or casinos will not open)

May 26 – in person BMV, gyms and fitness centers (a lawsuit had been filed on behalf of gyms to allow them to reopen). Non-contact or limited contact sports leagues (like tennis and golf) can resume. Public pools can open (but not amusement parks or water parks).

May 31 – daycare

TBD – higher-contact sports leagues (like soccer, basketball), dance studios, outdoor recreation, casinos and tourism

Ohio House of Representatives passed bill to limit our Health Director's orders to no more than 14 days, only a bipartisan legislative committee could allow orders for longer. Senate plans to vote next week. Governor Dewine threatens a veto (not enough votes to overcome veto). The current modified “Stay Safe Ohio” runs until May 29th is filled with exceptions, but still says individuals are “ordered to stay at home or their place of residence except as allowed in this order”. At this point I resent still being "ordered" to stay home.

As of tomorrow (5/15) up to 90% of the Ohio economy will be allowed to open.

Ohio is only conducting an average of 4640 tests per day, but average daily testing total is up 1000 from just ten days ago. Governor says we have triple that capacity and actual tests will continue to ramp up. Per his previous comments we were supposed to be testing 7200-15000 daily now, he says we have the capacity to do that many but did not explain the disconnect (same disconnect that has befallen national testing). Ohio is making our own reagent and swabs.

We are averaging about 600 new cases a day right now. At our peak in late April we were averaging about 900 new cases a day. 11 of our last 14 days have seen numbers lower than the prior day, but our overall downward trajectory has stalled and plateaued. We get a bump up and then the numbers fall off a little, then another bump up and a couple more days of fall off, but it is mostly flat at this point.

Our number of patients currently hospitalized has been dropping anywhere from 2-9 people per day. April 22nd and 23rd we had over 1100 people in the hospital. The numbers are coming in about 1000 now with some totals showing in the 900s before revisions adjust it slightly upward.

We had 510 to 520 people in ICU in late April. These figures have been steadily dropping as well to mid/upper 300s in ICU on any given day now.

My county is 7th in the state for cases. We actually had a peak a week to ten days ago, but the cases have quickly dropped in recent days. Our current 7 day average for daily cases of 18.5 is the lowest it has since things started ramping up in early April. We admit 1-2 new patients per day in our local hospitals. Deaths in my county have peaked in the last several days with 5-6 per day. The last couple days show that is declining so far. We are 4th in the state for deaths. Almost 70% of our deaths were from long term care facilities and 99% of deaths in my county were said to have co-morbidity/underlying health problems.

I run my own spreadsheets so I can better track trends in the coming weeks as we open up. I have no expectation if we can or can't do this, will have to see where it goes.

[Edited on 5/15/2020 by nebish]


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 02:33 AM

One number that does clear up some of the other statistics on Ohio's case count is % of positive/negative test results.

Our positive test rate has hit a low of 7.7% over the last 7 days averaged. Eight of our last ten days have had positive test rates in single digits. At our mid-April high we were getting positives at a 20-30% rate.

Hopefully this remains steady or even goes down more as testing increases. That should tell more than just looking at daily case increases.


2112 - 5/15/2020 at 04:23 AM

quote:
One number that does clear up some of the other statistics on Ohio's case count is % of positive/negative test results.

Our positive test rate has hit a low of 7.7% over the last 7 days averaged. Eight of our last ten days have had positive test rates in single digits. At our mid-April high we were getting positives at a 20-30% rate.

Hopefully this remains steady or even goes down more as testing increases. That should tell more than just looking at daily case increases.


I'm not sure how important that piece of data is. As more testing becomes available, you would expect those additional tests going to people without symptoms, who more often than not will test negative. You would expect that percentage to go down.

What would be a good sign is new cases going down dispite additional testing.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 10:55 AM

quote:
I'm not sure how important that piece of data is. As more testing becomes available, you would expect those additional tests going to people without symptoms, who more often than not will test negative. You would expect that percentage to go down.

What would be a good sign is new cases going down dispite additional testing.


Eventually that would be true. How fast Ohio expands it's tests will play a role. Right now just under 5000 a day isn't a lot to go around yet for people without symptoms other than high risk workers. If private companies are acquiring their own tests for associates not sure how or if those will get reported to local health departments and ultimately the state.

Most of the experts say cases will go up with opening and activity, some think dramatically so. Although Georgia is proving that theory wrong so far with cases dropping 3 weeks into their open.


cyclone88 - 5/15/2020 at 12:57 PM

quote:
Although Georgia is proving that theory wrong so far with cases dropping 3 weeks into their open.

This is where the data falls through the cracks for me. I'd want to track the # of patrons of re-opened businesses against the # of new cases. There mere fact that businesses are open doesn't mean they're being patronized. As Rusty has reported, the beach shops/eateries are open & seemed to have customers. Meanwhile, the mayors of three of GA's largest cities continue to urge people to remain home.

If you know of any stats that track cases v. people still at home & people venturing out, please post. As it is, some at home cases are never reported if the symptoms are mild & the person is never tested/reported.

[Edited on 5/15/2020 by cyclone88]


playallnite - 5/15/2020 at 01:26 PM

Well, see here we go again...little boyTrumpie, AKA anti-science, anti-anyone-who-is-smarter-than-he-is-because-his-ego-is-more-fragile-than- an-eggshell-and-he-can't-read-past-the-first-grade-"See Spot Run" books fires anyone who knows more than he does....which, come to think of it is very likely everyone except his drooling knuckle-dragging supporters and his sissy syncophants.....many will die from this "hoax"


2112 - 5/15/2020 at 02:05 PM

quote:
quote:
Although Georgia is proving that theory wrong so far with cases dropping 3 weeks into their open.

This is where the data falls through the cracks for me. I'd want to track the # of patrons of re-opened businesses against the # of new cases. There mere fact that businesses are open doesn't mean they're being patronized. As Randy has reported, the beach shops/eateries are open & seemed to have customers. Meanwhile, the mayors of three of GA's largest cities continue to urge people to remain home.

If you know of any stats that track cases v. people still at home & people venturing out, please post. As it is, some at home cases are never reported if the symptoms are mild & the person is never tested/reported.


Wisconsin will give us the answer we need in about 3 weeks.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 03:58 PM

quote:
quote:
Although Georgia is proving that theory wrong so far with cases dropping 3 weeks into their open.

This is where the data falls through the cracks for me. I'd want to track the # of patrons of re-opened businesses against the # of new cases. There mere fact that businesses are open doesn't mean they're being patronized. As Randy has reported, the beach shops/eateries are open & seemed to have customers. Meanwhile, the mayors of three of GA's largest cities continue to urge people to remain home.

If you know of any stats that track cases v. people still at home & people venturing out, please post. As it is, some at home cases are never reported if the symptoms are mild & the person is never tested/reported.


I have not seen that kind of comparison. Not sure what local news stories in Georgia may be reporting.

We won't see the cell phone data that some officials do see (I don't think that is disclosed any way is it?), but maybe we can look at traffic data from Georgia's department of transportation. I'm not interested enough to do that even in my own state, but I do think some traffic data might be able to be compared.

We don't know. As you say, just because businesses and places are allowed to open doesn't mean all will and just because people are able to go there doesn't mean all will - I agree. But it must be true that while all or some will not, a portion of them certainly will. How large is that group? Don't know. But the fact that the group trying to open and do more stuff exists and are out there doing it should mean comparing a relative lock-down condition from say 4-5 weeks ago to now should offer a contrast. Many people will be out interacting and engaging in personal and business contact...how many, what percentage? Don't know that is being calculated on a widespread reportable basis.

I suppose data could be manipulated. I was actually surprised that cases would drop as reopening are allowed to occur....almost sounds like right-wing spin. I am fully prepared to see at least mini-spikes and hot spots pop up, it only seemed logical and natural it would. Having cases go down while opening up seems illogical and a strange coincidence.

It's all new territory...learning on the fly.


Rusty - 5/15/2020 at 04:16 PM

I live in southeast (coastal) Georgia.

As a matter of fact, numbers of NEW cases are still rising - if only slightly. The media has apparently moved from hyping the disease to burying it. With most businesses open (no bars yet - churches? How would I even know?) it'll take about 3 weeks to see any new surge. Here's the rub on that: someone from New York comes here, feels symptoms, gets tested (positive) - that person shows up as a new case in New York. In my opinion, it'll be several weeks before any type of victory can be declared. I'll be holed up - masking up for any errands.


cyclone88 - 5/15/2020 at 04:35 PM

quote:
We won't see the cell phone data that some officials do see (I don't think that is disclosed any way is it?)


The NYT publishes cell phone data as it's available (daily? weekly?). So far, it tracks what types of locations are getting the most visits & when they occur.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 04:39 PM

These could be fun to play around with:

https://www.safegraph.com/dashboard/reopening-the-economy-foot-traffic?s=US &d=05-12-2020&i=all


cyclone88 - 5/15/2020 at 04:44 PM

quote:
Here's the rub on that: someone from New York comes here, feels symptoms, gets tested (positive) - that person shows up as a new case in New York. In my opinion, it'll be several weeks before any type of victory can be declared. I'll be holed up - masking up for any errands.


Good point about where tourists are sickened in one state show up as new cases in their home state.

Wasn't victory already declared even though nothing has changed except there are no more daily briefings? I'm w/you. There's nowhere I want to go right now - masked walks in Central Park practicing social distancing is about it for me. Virtually all summer music & film venues have been canceled & the gym in my building remains closed per the co-op board. I still work from home w/no desire to rush back to the office.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 04:50 PM

quote:
I live in southeast (coastal) Georgia.

As a matter of fact, numbers of NEW cases are still rising - if only slightly. The media has apparently moved from hyping the disease to burying it. With most businesses open (no bars yet - churches? How would I even know?) it'll take about 3 weeks to see any new surge. Here's the rub on that: someone from New York comes here, feels symptoms, gets tested (positive) - that person shows up as a new case in New York. In my opinion, it'll be several weeks before any type of victory can be declared. I'll be holed up - masking up for any errands.


Yes, I do see that now upon looking up local news site.

Axios does say that Georgia's cases are down 12% week over week.
https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-cases-map-high-risk-states-8ceeaa05-cc07- 4e8b-b9f4-df3a3315f143.html

11Alive NBC affiliate does show on average about 30 more cases over a current 14 day period compared to one prior for Georgia. Hospitalizations have decreased by 50+ and deaths have dropped by about 4-5 current 14 day (5/1-5/14) to prior (4/17-4/30).
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/real-time-updates-c oronavirus-in-georgia-may-14/85-9926a53e-01dc-4a66-aaf9-11ab64e16db9


stormyrider - 5/15/2020 at 05:05 PM

What will also make interpretation of the stats tough is that even though states are "open", some business have stayed shut and many people are still mostly at home. People's behavior may make it look like re-opening was a success and safe when we really don't know


Rusty - 5/15/2020 at 05:12 PM

To be honest, I find the NEW CASE numbers to be misleading - even a bit non-useful. This is an accumulation number that includes EVERY case since day 1. We've only had one death here (Glynn County) but the number of cases keeps stacking up. I am sure that some have completely recovered. Weird thing is that the current "count" keeps going up or down by 1. Not sure if they're adjusting for mis-diagnosis' or what.


nebish - 5/15/2020 at 06:01 PM

I see the new case numbers, the daily increase or decrease, to be very relevant and useful. The cumulative total figure since day 1 means little to me. In a historical reference sense it serves a purpose to see where the virus has gone, but it is backwards looking. The new daily cases says where the situation is currently. The only total that is impactful and of course disturbing is the death figure. The number of hospitalizations day-over-day, number in ICU, number on ventilators that is all very helpful information when looking at trends. You can average them over given periods, you can get % of increase/decrease, you can see out of the norm highs and lows due to data dumps or reporting snags. This is why I wanted to have all Ohio's data in one place that I could see at any time instead of having to search for it and then run some calculations off of how a certain site was reporting it. I collect data from the coronavirus.ohio.gov site along with data from Cleveland.com, the businessjournaldaily.com and covidtracking.com


stormyrider - 5/15/2020 at 06:54 PM

I like looking at hospitalizations, not only because I work in the hospital
In NH, access to testing has changed over time and is changing still. More new cases will be picked up as more tests are available, so a perceived increase may not be reflective of a real change. The number of sick people theoretically would be independent of test availability. Assuming the virulence of the virus is unchanged, it is a good measure of how much is out there, imo


2112 - 5/15/2020 at 10:36 PM

I look at new cases, active cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. Those numbers pretty much tell you where you are at now. From those you can tell the percent of confirmed active cases per population, if the hospitals are overwhelmed, and if things are getting better or worse. My county finally started releasing the number recovered, so now I know that there are 1.2 active confirmed cases per 10,000 people in my county, which is a pretty low ratio unless you consider that you'd probably have 2 people with it at a large concert or sporting event. Of course, there are likely many other that have it but never got tested. Very few hospitalizations here as well. We've been very fortunate, and as much as I like to be cautious it seems like most things in my area could be opened up. I would not have the same attitude if I lived in NYC however.


nebish - 5/17/2020 at 02:32 AM

Interactive national map with all counties color-coded to show where cases are declining or increasing:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/05/graphic-tracking-coronav irus-infections-us/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::ad d=SpecialEdition_20200515&rid=910A3A0C804D1C7F8D5B2B273F0E8738


tbomike - 5/19/2020 at 06:37 PM

Finally got a haircut today. And here in Ohio Governor Dewine just lifted the remaining stay at home order. About time.


tbomike - 5/19/2020 at 06:40 PM

And here. While this is from Italy but lots of states here have very similar age breakdown. I believe Massachusetts avg age of death is 82 and Florida very similar. End the lockdowns now. So why all this lunacy acting like we are all at risk? What a load of bs.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1106372/coronavirus-death-rate-by-age-g roup-italy/


piacere - 5/19/2020 at 07:26 PM

No...just the 82 year olds, who friggin BUILT this country.



gina - 5/19/2020 at 07:39 PM

quote:
Interactive national map with all counties color-coded to show where cases are declining or increasing:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/05/graphic-tracking-coronav irus-infections-us/?cmpid=org=ngp::mc=crm-email::src=ngp::cmp=editorial::ad d=SpecialEdition_20200515&rid=910A3A0C804D1C7F8D5B2B273F0E8738


We're decreasing here because everybody was told to stay home or risk getting it and die in 3 days. We saw the refrigerator morgue trucks with 800 bodies a day getting put in there. That scared people enough to stay home. Sometimes it has to get dramatic to make the point stay home and stop the spread.

The numbers here have followed the IMHE model so I think it will be true July 1 will be safe in metro NY, but they may open sooner. Right now quarantine extended till June 13. The model has been right so far, so the protesters should just wait and stop their demonstrations.

[Edited on 5/19/2020 by gina]


tbomike - 5/19/2020 at 08:24 PM

quote:
No...just the 82 year olds, who friggin BUILT this country.





Which we all know. And they still managed not to protect them very well.


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2020 at 08:49 PM

@piacere - copy you loud and clear


PattyG - 5/19/2020 at 09:05 PM

Well here a statistic for you. Seven years ago my daughter had a miscarriage and lost her baby, or as republicans refer to it as a “late term abortion”. She gave birth last year to the only child she will ever have a beautiful baby girl. Her husband’s mother died of brain cancer when he was nineteen. My mother who was a nurse worked in infection control, she was only 82 and was at work the day before she was admitted to the ICU and was intubated and died three days later. My sister was a nurse and died when she was 32 from a staph infection she got from the hospital she worked at. My son is a diabetic and my husband has high blood pressure. My husband can still fit in the same suit we were married in so this is not an issue of obesity as well as my son. So my granddaughter only has one grandmother and that is me. Should I throw myself on the sword for Donald Trump’s stock market, a haircut, to go party at bar, go see a show? Anne Frank was isolated for over two years in an attic with 7 other people. If a child can endure that isolation should I cry because I can’t get my hair done? The pioneers were locked in their home for months during the winter, how about Valley Forge. Has this country become so weak that they are willing to sacrifice their own parents and grandparents for a haircut?

So truly if that is how you feel go to a Trump Rally, don't wear a mask. Go cruise around a hospital ICU with active virus patients without mask and then go to your family's house and cough in their faces. That way you get your haircut and sacrifice your parents and grandparents for the DT Stockmarket and consider yourself more of a patriot then the pioneers of this country or the healthcare workers who literally put their lives on the line to save people like you when you are sick and dying.


[Edited on 5/19/2020 by PattyG]

[Edited on 5/19/2020 by PattyG]


piacere - 5/19/2020 at 09:56 PM

quote:
quote:
No...just the 82 year olds, who friggin BUILT this country.





Which we all know. And they still managed not to protect them very well.


That's not what you said.


PattyG - 5/19/2020 at 10:09 PM

Well here in Georgia:


https://nypost.com/2020/05/19/georgia-agency-bashed-for-using-erroneous-cor onavirus-data/


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2020 at 10:33 PM

Wahoo! here come PattyG cavalry , just watch em scatter!


nebish - 5/19/2020 at 10:38 PM

This is ironic, I'm about to leave to get my hair cut at 7:15.

I will be wearing a mask...I assume as required in Ohio, the lady cutting my hair will be as well. I will report back if it is of such interest.

My wife is 60 with a weakened immune system to having RA and the drugs she takes for it. Up until now she has only seen a very limited number of immediate family members. Until yesterday, she went to the garden center to get some outdoor plants for the house. She wore a mask, tries to stay away from people, has plenty hand sanitizer. She called a couple weeks ago about getting her hair done, said get me the first day in June you can. Her appointment is June 13th. They are pretty busy now.

People have to make their own decisions. People have to take precautions, but people have to choose what they want to do and not do with risks being what they are.

We aren't Trump lovers. Sure I voted for him 2016, won't be in 2020. My wife hates Trump and has an Obama t-shirt.

For me, for us, this had nothing to do with politics other than the fact we enjoy following political story lines and issues.

I'm getting my hair cut tonight. I'm sorry if that is going to upset some people. Stay sheltered in place if it makes you feel safe. I'm not going to berate you if you do. Everyone has to do what everyone has to do.


PattyG - 5/19/2020 at 11:13 PM

Look if it is important enough for you then go for it. For me getting my hair done is not that important. For the record I do not fear death I have seen enough of it to no longer fear it, but my granddaughter needs to grow up having known her only grandmother. I have no wish to spread this in any way if possible. If more people took it seriously it would not bother me but they don't. We usually take a ride around town and since Georgia is open people are out in droves and hardly anyone is wearing masks. Most people do not realize that when you sneeze hard the sprays comes out at a hundred miles an hour. When your mother worked in infectious control you learn these things. That person has the virus they have no symptoms does not cover their mouth and nose and is buying a toy for their kid. They leave the isle then a kid with asthma comes along and touches the toy that was just sneezed on. And on and on it goes. The kid had a mask on but no gloves and just scratched a small cut or wipes their eyes.

We have a governor who can't get his number's straight and a population who think it is a hoax. I am working from home and our CEO said that we will continue to do so. I work for an insurance company with tons of actuarial's. They are running the numbers and the numbers say stay home.


PhotoRon286 - 5/20/2020 at 12:24 AM

quote:
Well here a statistic for you. Seven years ago my daughter had a miscarriage and lost her baby, or as republicans refer to it as a “late term abortion”. She gave birth last year to the only child she will ever have a beautiful baby girl. Her husband’s mother died of brain cancer when he was nineteen. My mother who was a nurse worked in infection control, she was only 82 and was at work the day before she was admitted to the ICU and was intubated and died three days later. My sister was a nurse and died when she was 32 from a staph infection she got from the hospital she worked at. My son is a diabetic and my husband has high blood pressure. My husband can still fit in the same suit we were married in so this is not an issue of obesity as well as my son. So my granddaughter only has one grandmother and that is me. Should I throw myself on the sword for Donald Trump’s stock market, a haircut, to go party at bar, go see a show? Anne Frank was isolated for over two years in an attic with 7 other people. If a child can endure that isolation should I cry because I can’t get my hair done? The pioneers were locked in their home for months during the winter, how about Valley Forge. Has this country become so weak that they are willing to sacrifice their own parents and grandparents for a haircut?

So truly if that is how you feel go to a Trump Rally, don't wear a mask. Go cruise around a hospital ICU with active virus patients without mask and then go to your family's house and cough in their faces. That way you get your haircut and sacrifice your parents and grandparents for the DT Stockmarket and consider yourself more of a patriot then the pioneers of this country or the healthcare workers who literally put their lives on the line to save people like you when you are sick and dying.



Great post!

I got the news today that my son the EMT just got back from a three week deployment to NYC.

Now we wait to see the results of his antibody test when he gets one.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 12:30 AM

quote:
We usually take a ride around town and since Georgia is open people are out in droves and hardly anyone is wearing masks.


Can you post evidence/proof from more than one source that states that beyond any doubt Face masks stop this pathogen? It's not about what people think, or addressing their fears, does the face mask stop covid? because if the answer is, "well it limits it" then we are right back to square one with the "Flattening the curve" argument that was supposed to take the burden off hospitals and stop overcrowding (which never happened) And if face masks are the cure all, why did not the experts say this from day one?


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 12:50 AM

I don't mind using a mask. It isn't that big a deal.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 01:09 AM

quote:
I don't mind using a mask. It isn't that big a deal.


That's not the point. Do they work?...Most of the evidence says no, the particulate is too small...The bandana as a face mask is almost a joke.


Stephen - 5/20/2020 at 01:31 AM

W/masks hindering identities like they are, video surveillance security systems are compromised in a big way - doesn’t seem to have been a spike in burglaries/thefts as part of the pandemic -
Pier 1 Imports, closing
JC Penny, same (240 stores)
Countless lives lost
No hugging, concerts, ballgames...
Not that I was there, but the Plague has nothing on the pandemic panic
Hopefully America will reopen soon


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 01:46 AM

quote:
Well here in Georgia:


https://nypost.com/2020/05/19/georgia-agency-bashed-for-using-erroneous-cor onavirus-data/


First:

"I suppose data could be manipulated. I was actually surprised that cases would drop as reopening are allowed to occur....almost sounds like right-wing spin. I am fully prepared to see at least mini-spikes and hot spots pop up, it only seemed logical and natural it would. Having cases go down while opening up seems illogical and a strange coincidence."


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 01:50 AM

quote:
I don't mind using a mask. It isn't that big a deal.


quote:
That's not the point. Do they work?...Most of the evidence says no, the particulate is too small...The bandana as a face mask is almost a joke.


Ok, it isn't your point. It is my point. I am fine with wearing a mask. It is a new fashion - even if it is pointless it is a statement that you give a damn, a sign of courtesy. Like I said, not a big deal.


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 01:54 AM

quote:
quote:

We usually take a ride around town and since Georgia is open people are out in droves and hardly anyone is wearing masks.




Can you post evidence/proof from more than one source that states that beyond any doubt Face masks stop this pathogen? It's not about what people think, or addressing their fears, does the face mask stop covid? because if the answer is, "well it limits it" then we are right back to square one with the "Flattening the curve" argument that was supposed to take the burden off hospitals and stop overcrowding (which never happened) And if face masks are the cure all, why did not the experts say this from day one?


quote:
quote:
I don't mind using a mask. It isn't that big a deal.


That's not the point. Do they work?...Most of the evidence says no, the particulate is too small...The bandana as a face mask is almost a joke.


I wear a mask. I also think it's not a big deal. Even if 6 months or a year from now somebody says we were fools for wearing masks, I don't care, I'll be a fool. I think it makes sense.

There are some problems, it's not fool-proof. Virus can enter your eyes. Your fingers could be contaminated when you go to put on or take off your mask.

A business can require you to wear one. A bank can require you to take your hat off when you come in. A warehouse and manufacturing facility can require you to wear safety toe shoes and eye protection even for visitors.

It's fine. I usually wear a mask. I was in a hot semi trailer helping unload some donated items for a local non-profit. I started with a mask (hot and sweaty). I ended without a mask. But every other time I wear it.


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 02:06 AM

quote:
Look if it is important enough for you then go for it. For me getting my hair done is not that important. For the record I do not fear death I have seen enough of it to no longer fear it, but my granddaughter needs to grow up having known her only grandmother. I have no wish to spread this in any way if possible. If more people took it seriously it would not bother me but they don't. We usually take a ride around town and since Georgia is open people are out in droves and hardly anyone is wearing masks. Most people do not realize that when you sneeze hard the sprays comes out at a hundred miles an hour. When your mother worked in infectious control you learn these things. That person has the virus they have no symptoms does not cover their mouth and nose and is buying a toy for their kid. They leave the isle then a kid with asthma comes along and touches the toy that was just sneezed on. And on and on it goes. The kid had a mask on but no gloves and just scratched a small cut or wipes their eyes.

We have a governor who can't get his number's straight and a population who think it is a hoax. I am working from home and our CEO said that we will continue to do so. I work for an insurance company with tons of actuarial's. They are running the numbers and the numbers say stay home.



I'm fine with your point of view and opinion and bristly reaction. tbomike can reply to his own extent. I thought it was strange that I too was getting my hair cut today.

It wasn't that it was necessarily so important to me. I could've gone longer, I could've had my wife cut it, hell I could've just shaved it off.

Getting my hair cut is just like my wife going to the garden center. Or when we go out to eat for the first time. Or when I walk into a bank or the BMV for the first time. Or when I get on an airplane for the first time, hopefully next month.

I don't want to get infected and I don't want to infect anyone else. I don't want to be a hermit either. I'll take precautions in doing the things I do so hopefully those things don't happen, but I acknowledge the possibility exists. There are many risks we must live with and if this virus is going to be with us for the foreseeable future, or even extended future as some have estimated, I, and we all, need to figure out how to live with the threat of the virus in our lives.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 02:15 AM

Forget the Covid - covering the mouth is a long overdue hygiene practice in modern crowds. No more excited people spraying spittle, no more of those random "oyster squirts" you know those pressurized streams that people generate? It will slow down the spitters, and at least somewhat stop the larger globs of peoples' internal goodness. Ir will be a great social equalizer - No more goodlooking people charming their way thru life, or ugly people shunned. And just think how exciting and erotic noses and mouths will become! oo la la


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 02:17 AM

quote:
even if it is pointless it is a statement that you give a damn, a sign of courtesy.


Interesting, if it is pointless to whom are you being courteous?


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 02:30 AM

quote:
Interesting, if it is pointless to whom are you being courteous?


So far in my interactions it definitely puts coworkers at ease, checkout clerks who face people all day seem to appreciate it and respond positively. I even do a quick courtesy probably useless mask pull-up when passing folks on the trail. Some people are really terrified and are clearly grateful for the gesture. Other folks on lines. You know, people, same as anyplace. That is who I am being courteous to.

As far as work goes, it is not optional. And you know what? So what.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 02:38 AM

quote:
Some people are really terrified and are clearly grateful for the gesture.


Mmmm. Too many News broadcasts where the Death totals in Spain are the lead story. Perhaps not wearing a mask could be an indicator that you are not afraid and are ready to get back to life....

Flip a coin


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 02:43 AM

I'm with BrerRabbit, I do it out of courtesy like I had posted about before. Customers are not required by the state to wear one (unless the business mandates patrons wear one, which they can do), but if all the employees have to do it...some of which probably don't like having to do it, I'll do it too with them.

I think it probably helps some, but even if it didn't...I'll pick another battle to fight another day. The mask really is fine. Some people will wear one, some people won't. I don't go as far as wear one when I hike and most people I pass also don't have one, but I have passed 1 person who was hiking in the woods with a mask on and I passed 3 women who all pulled up their masks when I passed them. So whatever...it's mask season. I think most of us can live with that for a while to see where this thing ends up going.


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 02:48 AM

So yeah, the haircut.

They lock the door so nobody can come in that they aren't ready for. It's a keyed deadbolt, they leave the key in it ,but I wonder about fire code on that.

You wait in your car until they call you. They checked my temperature upon entering, 100.4 or higher and you can't come in (that is per the state of Ohio). They sprayed my hands with something that I assumed was an alcohol product. The chair was still partially wet with disinfectant that was in the process of drying. They have shower curtains hanging from the ceiling between the chairs. 3 workers, all wearing face shields and 2 wearing masks. 4 patrons including me all wearing masks.

Lady that cut my hair is working 12 to 14 hour days right now M-F with one day off and some partial hours on Saturday.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 02:50 AM

Maybe so, lots of little things we do are useless as actual protection against the harsher vagaries of life. Why make this one of the many pointless customs a big deal? It is a fashion that is here to stay.

Instead of being the big toughguy drill sergeant you could maybe relax show a little respect and empathy for those not as brave as you and adopt a silly social convention to ease the tension.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 03:01 AM

quote:
Instead of being the big toughguy drill sergeant you could maybe relax show a little respect and empathy for those not as brave as you and adopt a silly social convention to ease the tension.


You do you and I will do me.


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 03:03 AM

quote:
quote:
Instead of being the big toughguy drill sergeant you could maybe relax show a little respect and empathy for those not as brave as you and adopt a silly social convention to ease the tension.


You do you and I will do me.


I laughed.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 05:09 AM

Yeah I laughed too. I honestly do not give a damn what folks do. For sure if someone sneezes around me I am happier with a mask on, studies schmudies. I work in the US Forest Service so it is not optional, so I got used to it.. A new habit I am comfortable with it, makes sense to me. And the public appreciates the consideration.

@ nebish your haircut adventure sounded pretty surreal

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by BrerRabbit]

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by BrerRabbit]


stormyrider - 5/20/2020 at 09:54 AM

Wearing a mask protects the next guy more than you. We all may be asymptomatic carriers. You should be grateful when your neighbor is wearing a mask. You should provide him with the same courtesy


piacere - 5/20/2020 at 10:10 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Instead of being the big toughguy drill sergeant you could maybe relax show a little respect and empathy for those not as brave as you and adopt a silly social convention to ease the tension.


You do you and I will do me.


I laughed.


Not me.

On the contrary.


cyclone88 - 5/20/2020 at 12:02 PM

quote:
Wearing a mask protects the next guy more than you. We all may be asymptomatic carriers. You should be grateful when your neighbor is wearing a mask. You should provide him with the same courtesy


I don't get the big deal of wearing a mask. There's no downside.

Stormy, The link you posted re the study of exactly what activities aerosolize the virus farther & longer was really helpful - singing more than running more than talking - & that the duration of being around potentially affected persons was more important than just passing them.

I've read some beach opening rules that allow sunbathing based on the assumption that sitting alone on a beach blanket is less risky than walking amidst a group of runners. The caution is not to sit there for 8 hours - more like 2.

So be a considerate human being & wear a mask when interacting w/others. As we keep being reminded, we're all in this together.




nebish - 5/20/2020 at 01:12 PM

For BigV:

quote:
Wearing a mask can significantly reduce coronavirus transmission, study on hamsters claims
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/19/coronavirus-wearing-a-mask-can-reduce-trans mission-by-75percent-new-study-claims.html



For Pierce:

It's ok if you don't want to do yourself, but if you do nobody will judge you.


Rusty - 5/20/2020 at 01:44 PM

I wear the mask - if for no other reason than to show support and solidarity with the overworked hospital staffs and even the grocery store clerks and cashiers. I'm honestly not sure how much good the mask does (so many conflicting reports and opinions - especially on the internet), but it shows (I hope) that I am taking the virus seriously and am wiling to do my own part in lessening its effects.

The "anti-maskers" don't worry me as much as those who "have had enough", and insist on assembling in large groups in spite of warnings of the virus. This past weekend, a crowd reported to number near 3,000 assembled for a block party in Volusia County, Florida. I should've KNOWN, but I never suspected that you could assemble so many obstinate and ... "questionably intelligent" souls in one spot. I don't care if these folks were black, white, green or chartreuse - all of their drivers license or SSI number should be taken (without arrest) so that they can be denied access to scarce ventilators should they develop serious symptoms. I still imagine that down the road - somebody (or group of somebodies) will file a lawsuit against the government for failing to protect them from their own stupidity. Yeah, stay tuned! It'll happen.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/20/us/florida-block-party-arrests/index.html


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 03:20 PM

Was working on trail last week - I wasnt masked - there was a young woman wearing a mask who went six feet off trail into brush to maintain distance. I felt really bad - she was actually frightened of me. Now I pull up the mask when approaching folks.

Deal is, effective or not, it is helping folks cope. It is a simple new convention possibly dumb as a baseball hat is for sun protection or deodorant is against the chronic fierce b.o. of someone who eats a lot of junk food, or a wedding ring to ensure fidelity, or any number of silly social rituals.

Whatever you feel you are proving by circulating without a mask, whatever image you think you are projecting, in the new reality you are simply being perceived as a scary nasty old man who is exposing his ugly fanus.

Like it or not the mouth and nose are on their way to becomng private parts.



[Edited on 5/20/2020 by BrerRabbit]


Stephen - 5/20/2020 at 03:31 PM

quote:
.

Like it or not the mouth and nose are on their way to becomng private parts.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by BrerRabbit]


So true, & so sad - this thing has kicked our butts from the onset - good observation


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 03:32 PM

quote:
Was working on trail last week - I wasnt masked - there was a young woman wearing a mask who went six feet off trail into brush to maintain distance.


"To maintain distance"...As in respecting the 6 ft. social distancing guideline? I do the same and you know, this simple of act of respect can be so easily accomplished without a mask!


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 03:37 PM

quote:
Deal is, effective or not, it is helping folks cope.


"Effective or not".....Good for you! Funny, the same people here who do not give a damn about others political feelings on this board and resort to epithets and name calling when a simple disagreement about the president arises are the same ones now preaching good, wholesome friendliness and respect toward others...Please. spare us this bullsh*t.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 03:44 PM

^ I get it, social change is irritating. Don't blame me, I am old school and wish I could still go around with my fanus showing.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 04:36 PM

quote:
^ I get it, social change is irritating.


There is a huge difference between the evolution of agreed upon social behaviors and over reaction due solely to fear....But you are correct, the panic and the "change" some have adopted for themselves is extremely irritating.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 04:48 PM

^ Whatever the reasons for changing social conventions may be - they are happening. Dont shoot me I am only the messnger:

Vent away, the Whipping Post seems to be serving a worthwhile mental health purpose during these psychologically taxing changes.


piacere - 5/20/2020 at 04:59 PM

quote:
For BigV:

quote:
Wearing a mask can significantly reduce coronavirus transmission, study on hamsters claims
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/19/coronavirus-wearing-a-mask-can-reduce-trans mission-by-75percent-new-study-claims.html



For Pierce:

It's ok if you don't want to do yourself, but if you do nobody will judge you.


I'm not sure what you're saying.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 05:05 PM

stumped me too


nebish - 5/20/2020 at 05:37 PM

Nevermind. If you don't get why I laughed. Probably good we all don't think alike.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 05:42 PM

It was kind of a neat Zen riddle; I sort of got it but couldnt, but I just didnt get at all who Pierce was.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 05:46 PM

quote:
quote:
"The new normal"How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?

I used CA Gov. Gavin Newsom's description of what restaurants will look like in my post.


There's a problem right off the bat, like California is a gleaming example of how ANYTHING should be done.


tbomike - 5/20/2020 at 05:48 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
"The new normal"How about a couple of examples detailing exactly what this means?

I used CA Gov. Gavin Newsom's description of what restaurants will look like in my post.


There's a problem right off the bat, like California is a gleaming example of how ANYTHING should be done.


Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more. And no that does not mean I will vote for Trump. Most probably will mean I won't vote at all.


tbomike - 5/20/2020 at 05:54 PM

So this happened during the lockdown. So explain to me again how we were protecting those in nursing homes?

5,368 dead and counting: An investigation of state failures as crisis rampaged through N.J. nursing homes

https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/05/5300-dead-and-counting-an-investigat ion-of-state-failures-as-crisis-rampaged-through-nj-nursing-homes.html




BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 06:54 PM

quote:
There's a problem right off the bat, like California is a gleaming example of how ANYTHING should be done.



And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner, along with everything north of the Mason Dixon line - assuming Oregon and Washington as well.

I would love to see a map of what you consider to be the "Good USA" gleaming examples of how things should be done.

Oh and McBlowhard - before you inflate your bagpipes . . . I love the Dakotas, the South, this whole crazy beautiful country!


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 07:26 PM

quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?


piacere - 5/20/2020 at 07:31 PM

quote:
Nevermind. If you don't get why I laughed. Probably good we all don't think alike.


I get why you laughed. Two interpretations in what he wrote.One could've been interpreted as humorous, the other one not. I understand. I went with not.

...and it's "piacere". Italian.


pops42 - 5/20/2020 at 07:37 PM

quote:
quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?
You could infect and possibly kill someone or several people with your careless attitude, how does this relate to abortion?.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 07:39 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?
You could infect and possibly kill someone or several people with your careless attitude, how does this relate to abortion?.


Dude I have lost all respect for you with your comment of "I hope you lose everything"..Take a hike


stormyrider - 5/20/2020 at 07:52 PM

quote:
And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?



no, it doesn't apply to masks. Masks protect other people.

If you are by yourself on a trail or in the street, fine.

But if you are in a store, breathing on items etc, you are affecting other people.

Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 07:55 PM

quote:
My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?


For a lot of folks, totally optional. Flat out mandatory in my workplace, and strictly so. Standard PPE for wildland fire. And most law enforcement and first responders. Good thing you aren't in the Forest Service, you would be hatin it right now.


pops42 - 5/20/2020 at 08:39 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?
You could infect and possibly kill someone or several people with your careless attitude, how does this relate to abortion?.


Dude I have lost all respect for you with your comment of "I hope you lose everything"..Take a hike
Dude I have no respect for YOU, for your support trump and his agenda of destroying this country, I hope YOU suffer for your choices.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 09:22 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
And yet another huge chunk of the Union written off in a one-liner


Just California and New York, Lived in California most of my and finally got out. Taxes and laws for everything, both of these states are the home of the mantra, "Well, we have to do something because doing something certainly looks better than doing nothing". Too much Government, too many people and taxes on everything but the air you breath.

quote:
Gavin Newsom and Eric Garcetti are f'n delusional morons. And I have voted Democrat all my life. But no more.


Different poster, but I agree with his decision and assessment. Both of these gents are the epitome of confusing "leadership" with the feeling that their fingerprints have to be on everything. Imagine arresting windsurfers while releasing criminals from jail because of overcrowding. "Let's put ocean goers into the same cells that were just inhabited by a criminal"....Genius.

California and New York, no thank you.

And here's another liberal gem while I am at it. I love the Pro-Abortion chant "My body, my choice"....Does this apply to the wearing of masks?
You could infect and possibly kill someone or several people with your careless attitude, how does this relate to abortion?.


Dude I have lost all respect for you with your comment of "I hope you lose everything"..Take a hike
Dude I have no respect for YOU, for your support trump and his agenda of destroying this country, I hope YOU suffer for your choices.


You remain a real class act.


BIGV - 5/20/2020 at 09:43 PM

quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.


pops42 - 5/20/2020 at 10:38 PM

quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.
if YOU are COVID19 positive, you likely will not know it, so not wearing a mask or keeping a distance from people WILL infect/possible kill others. YOU politicizing this issue is not only dumb but dangerous. saying "liberals" are the ones being too cautious and considerate of others lives and health is also like admitting, conservative trump lovers are inconsiderate, wreck-less morons, who think only of themselves. BTW, your statement that Biden being of of the same moral character as trump was pretty dumb too, big veetus.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by pops42]


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 10:45 PM

quote:
May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights


Your rights are not threatened. Nobody is going to force you to wear a mask.

Save your fight for the vaccines that are being rushed through and wll be forced upon us without adequate testing. Then you may well find me in your corner, assuming your stand on rights includes vaccination. The vaccine stuff is going to be some serious controversy - this mask business is nothing compared to what is coming.


2112 - 5/20/2020 at 11:18 PM

quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.


I was just reading my copy of the Constitution, and for the life of me I couldn't find anywhere any mention of having the right to not have to wear a mask. Can you please direct me to where I can find that right in the Constitution?


piacere - 5/20/2020 at 11:32 PM

quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.


Vince, I agree with you damn near all the time but, as I may have said earlier, not here.
Let me ask you this, and mind you, I'm not concerned all that much, just mildly curious, after all, you do you and I'll do me...
Are you not wearing a mask BC it's your right not to, a, b, there's no proof it works aside from alleviating fear and paranoia, c, the whole mess is overblown by the media. .or some other reason?
In all this time, what, 8, 10 weeks? I haven't asked one person why they don't wear one. You may have answered definitively prior but I missed it.
Thanks


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 11:36 PM

quote:
The bandana as a face mask is almost a joke.


Hold on a sec ! Did someone use the words mask and bandana in the same sentence?



[Edited on 5/20/2020 by BrerRabbit]


BIGV - 5/21/2020 at 02:08 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Personal freedom implies that your choices aren't harming others.


Interesting choice of words there: "Implies" as in "Strongly suggests".

May I suggest that you come up with absolutely irrefutable scientific proof that NOT wearing a mask "harms others" before I give up any of my rights that may only suppress or eliminate your fears.


Vince, I agree with you damn near all the time but, as I may have said earlier, not here.
Let me ask you this, and mind you, I'm not concerned all that much, just mildly curious, after all, you do you and I'll do me...
Are you not wearing a mask BC it's your right not to, a, b, there's no proof it works aside from alleviating fear and paranoia, c, the whole mess is overblown by the media. .or some other reason?
In all this time, what, 8, 10 weeks? I haven't asked one person why they don't wear one. You may have answered definitively prior but I missed it.
Thanks


No worries and your answer is right there "there's no proof it works aside from alleviating fear and paranoia,... the whole mess is overblown by the media". Both of these. If the only effect from wearing a mask is "alleviating fear" then the media has won and we've all lost. Everyday is Halloween! But, I will add, I certainly respect the social distancing requests and practice that....


MartinD28 - 5/21/2020 at 11:49 AM

There's a lot of noise in this thread. We have 2 really good sources of information on this site (cyclone & stormyrider). Their jobs & specilizations are certainly closer subject matter experts than the rest of the "specialists" on this topic. I'll defer to these 2 posters. Thanks to the 2 of you for your input and clarifications.


nebish - 5/21/2020 at 12:39 PM

quote:


Save your fight for the vaccines that are being rushed through and wll be forced upon us without adequate testing. Then you may well find me in your corner, assuming your stand on rights includes vaccination. The vaccine stuff is going to be some serious controversy - this mask business is nothing compared to what is coming.


I'm actually concerned also.

Because of the rush, are dangers going to be overlooked in the to push this thing out and mass vaccinate everyone? It's going to have to come out in stages, so the first ones to get it will provide some further evidence of it's safety and effectiveness.

I really don't like to take medicine for anything, 9 times out of 10 I just deal with whatever. I got a flu shot one year and got sick twice that winter. Maybe not related, but I've never had another flu shot since.

I would want to get this vaccine, but really, I want to see how it goes first. I totally share your thoughts BrerRabbit.


cyclone88 - 5/21/2020 at 12:58 PM

quote:
There's a lot of noise in this thread. We have 2 really good sources of information on this site (cyclone & stormyrider). Their jobs & specilizations are certainly closer subject matter experts than the rest of the "specialists" on this topic. I'll defer to these 2 posters. Thanks to the 2 of you for your input and clarifications.

The entire time I was reading the last 2 pages of this thread, I kept thinking "stormyrider has explained the importance of masks earlier so why on earth are people demanding scientific facts?" Of course, I realize that the scientific fact has to come from a source acceptable to the questioner & then the provider of the source has to be interrogated as though they were defending a PhD dissertation, but I don't think we're going to get a more solid source than a practicing cardiologist.

Thanks, Martin, for your confidence, but we all have opinions. I participate in threads I find interesting or in which I might be able to clarify something or start topics that interest me (I'm fairly certain I'm the only one who really cared about impeachment - the process not the outcome). I have expertise in a couple of areas & point it out when it's relevant, but don't expect anyone to defer to me. I look forward to stormyrider's posts on many topics & appreciate his willingness to explain medicalese in basic language.

Most of us have expertise in something - a lot of us ABB followers from the 1970s have been working for a long time - so I weigh their comments more heavily than others. I also just skip comments from lazy noisemakers who can't be bothered to look up the most basic things & I appreciate the jokes in an attempt to lighten up or deflect the nasty place the thread is headed.

Mostly, I post my opinions. On the topic of masks, for the life of me, I don't know what the downside of wearing one around people not living in our households is. Presumably, the goal for all of us is to survive COVID19, make our way out into the world (although there's not much open yet in NYC), & eventually be rid of this infectious disease. If wearing a mask is useful, why not do it?

Thanks Martin for your posts about the market/economy & amazing musical knowledge. I defer to you, but I don't understand why anyone thinks GA was taking the lead in jump-starting the national economy by opening tattoo parlors, beach shops, & patio restaurants at 50% capacity. I can't imagine why anyone other than seasonal business owners would go to the expense of opening when their laid off employees are getting unemployment benefits (some at even higher rates than their former salaries) & rent is forgiven through July 31 when they have no guarantee patrons are ready to return. That's a whole thread!!!



piacere - 5/21/2020 at 02:18 PM

quote:
There's a lot of noise in this thread. We have 2 really good sources of information on this site (cyclone & stormyrider). Their jobs & specilizations are certainly closer subject matter experts than the rest of the "specialists" on this topic. I'll defer to these 2 posters. Thanks to the 2 of you for your input and clarifications.


What...no gina?

Seriously though, with all respect to those two (much deserved), whose posts I pay attention to, I defer to my PCP and cardiologist. I mean, who doesn't?
In the end, wearing one or not is a choice.


tbomike - 5/21/2020 at 06:10 PM

INteresting. Will see where it goes.

https://news.yahoo.com/as-more-states-reopen-georgia-defies-predictions-of- coronavirus-resurgence-whats-the-lesson-for-the-rest-of-the-country-1647348 15.html


stormyrider - 5/21/2020 at 06:47 PM

quote:
INteresting. Will see where it goes.

https://news.yahoo.com/as-more-states-reopen-georgia-defies-predictions-of- coronavirus-resurgence-whats-the-lesson-for-the-rest-of-the-country-1647348 15.html


yes
Florida and Texas have clearly increased since re-opening.

and this, from the article

quote:
In a sign, perhaps, of things to come, churches in both Texas and Georgia that briefly reopened for in-person worship services have had to close again as the virus spread in their pews. Holy Ghost Catholic Church in Houston closed after five leaders tested positive last weekend, following the death of one priest who had been diagnosed with pneumonia. In Ringgold, Ga., Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle started in-person services again in late April but stopped on May 11 after learning that members of several families had contracted the virus. And on Tuesday the CDC released a report about an outbreak in March at a rural Arkansas church: Of the 92 people who attended the church between March 6 and March 11, 35 tested positive and three died, the report said. Investigators found that 26 other contacts of these churchgoers later tested positive and one died.


MartinD28 - 5/21/2020 at 08:10 PM

quote:
quote:
INteresting. Will see where it goes.

https://news.yahoo.com/as-more-states-reopen-georgia-defies-predictions-of- coronavirus-resurgence-whats-the-lesson-for-the-rest-of-the-country-1647348 15.html


yes
Florida and Texas have clearly increased since re-opening.

and this, from the article

quote:
In a sign, perhaps, of things to come, churches in both Texas and Georgia that briefly reopened for in-person worship services have had to close again as the virus spread in their pews. Holy Ghost Catholic Church in Houston closed after five leaders tested positive last weekend, following the death of one priest who had been diagnosed with pneumonia. In Ringgold, Ga., Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle started in-person services again in late April but stopped on May 11 after learning that members of several families had contracted the virus. And on Tuesday the CDC released a report about an outbreak in March at a rural Arkansas church: Of the 92 people who attended the church between March 6 and March 11, 35 tested positive and three died, the report said. Investigators found that 26 other contacts of these churchgoers later tested positive and one died.



And that paragraph certainly seems like cause & effect.


pops42 - 5/21/2020 at 08:22 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
INteresting. Will see where it goes.

https://news.yahoo.com/as-more-states-reopen-georgia-defies-predictions-of- coronavirus-resurgence-whats-the-lesson-for-the-rest-of-the-country-1647348 15.html


yes
Florida and Texas have clearly increased since re-opening.

and this, from the article

quote:
In a sign, perhaps, of things to come, churches in both Texas and Georgia that briefly reopened for in-person worship services have had to close again as the virus spread in their pews. Holy Ghost Catholic Church in Houston closed after five leaders tested positive last weekend, following the death of one priest who had been diagnosed with pneumonia. In Ringgold, Ga., Catoosa Baptist Tabernacle started in-person services again in late April but stopped on May 11 after learning that members of several families had contracted the virus. And on Tuesday the CDC released a report about an outbreak in March at a rural Arkansas church: Of the 92 people who attended the church between March 6 and March 11, 35 tested positive and three died, the report said. Investigators found that 26 other contacts of these churchgoers later tested positive and one died.



And that paragraph certainly seems like cause & effect.
And the storms and flooding have not even begun yet,


nebish - 5/22/2020 at 12:26 AM

quote:
according to a database maintained by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Georgia’s rolling seven-day average of new daily cases — an important metric that helps to balance out daily fluctuations in reporting — has fallen for three weeks in a row.

Those figures are undisputed — despite a clumsy effort by state officials to present the data in a way that made them look even better. And they are a lot better than the experience in two other states that are moving to end lockdowns, Florida and Texas.

For the seven-day period ending on May 4, Georgia’s daily average stood at 746 cases.

By May 11, the average had fallen 12.6 percent to 652 daily cases.

By May 18, it had dropped to 612 cases, a further decline of 6.1 percent.

At the same time, Georgia’s seven-day average of COVID-19 hospitalizations fell from 1,432 on May 4, to 1,239 on May 11, to 1,049 on May 18 — a three-week decline of 26.7 percent.


I wondered about Georgia manipulating data and PattyG posted about it. But AJC is keeping their own numbers that shows decline.


nebish - 5/22/2020 at 12:34 AM

Driving home tonight, I have never, never seen the parking lot so packed at our TJ Max. I’m like ‘holy **** what is going on at TJ Max?’ My wife says there was a story on the news about a line as long as a football field of people waiting to get in.

Our mall parking lot had decent amount of cars, except Penny’s is closed. Most restaurants also had decent amount of cars. I can’t say busy because I’ve seen busy, but a couple dozen cars at big restaurants.

I was surprised to see how busy these places appear to be. Youngstown area Ohio.


PhotoRon286 - 5/22/2020 at 01:51 AM

My son is an EMT and on Tuesday returned froma three week deployment in NYC.

His company has already told staff to expect to deploy to the South and Midwest this summer as they expect the hospitals to be overwhelmed after opening up before the guidelines were met.


StratDal - 5/22/2020 at 02:20 AM

The 805 started opening up today - Phase 2. We'll see. Right now, I'll just stick to going to the supermarkets along with a few restaurants for take out. Might take my truck to the car wash.

Just hope everyone out and about is safe and not stupid. The operative word is "hope"...


nebish - 5/22/2020 at 08:57 PM

Last week on 5/14 I incorrectly said that Ohio was only conducting on average 4546 test per day. I was averaging all cells instead of just a 7 day average. So for 5/14 that number of average tests per day was 8185 and as of 5/21 it is 9400 7 day average. Ohio has doubled the number of tests daily since May 1st.

Our cases remain plateaued off of their respective highs.

On our rolling 7 day average the highest daily increase average was 562 on May 15th, our previous high was 623 on May 9th and earlier 920 April 21st. Today it is 548.

Our rolling 14 day average case increase high was 606 on May 12th, our previous high was 688 May 1st. Today it is 555.

21 day high 662 on May 8th. Today that 3 week average in daily case increases is 573.

After persistent hospitalizations between 1000-1100, the last week have seen daily hospitalized patients in the upper 800 to lower 900 range. Our number of patients in ICU one month ago was 524, today that figure is 362 with consistent and steady decline.

My county is averaging about 15 new cases a day, half of what we were averaging at the start of this month. We had been averaging about 1-2 new patients admitted to our hospitals, that average has ticked up to about 2-2.5 now. 2-4 Mahoning County resisidents are lost each day, we've lost a total of 163 lives. Our population is about 229,000 residents. We are 4th in the state for deaths and 7th for cases. 69% of the county's total deaths are from nursing homes.


tbomike - 5/23/2020 at 04:31 PM

Dr. Anthony Fauci says staying closed for too long could cause ‘irreparable damage’

Stay-at-home orders intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus could end up causing “irreparable damage” if imposed for too long, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said.
“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” he told CNBC.


“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” Fauci said during an interview with CNBC’s Meg Tirrell on “Halftime Report.”

He said the U.S. had to institute severe measures because Covid-19 cases were exploding then. “But now is the time, depending upon where you are and what your situation is, to begin to seriously look at reopening the economy, reopening the country to try to get back to some degree of normal.”
untry to try to get back to some degree of normal.”

However, Fauci also cautioned states against reducing social distancing measures too quickly, adding they must take “very significant precautions.”

“In general, I think most of the country is doing it in a prudent way,” he said. “There are obviously some situations where people might be jumping over that. I just say please proceed with caution if you’re going to do that.”


tbomike - 5/23/2020 at 04:32 PM

Dr Birx.

Birx announces ‘dramatic decline’ in coronavirus cases across the states

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/birx-announces-dramatic-decline-in-coronav irus-deaths-hospitalizations-across-the-country


tbomike - 5/23/2020 at 04:34 PM

The state of Vermont has 2 covid patients in the hospital now. But still on partial lockdown. Insanity.

https://www.healthvermont.gov/response/coronavirus-covid-19/current-activit y-vermont


Jerry - 5/24/2020 at 01:54 AM

quote:
The 805 started opening up today - Phase 2. We'll see. Right now, I'll just stick to going to the supermarkets along with a few restaurants for take out. Might take my truck to the car wash.

Just hope everyone out and about is safe and not stupid. The operative word is "hope"...
Went today to a market in Hawkinsville (about 35 miles from here) to replenish the meat supply. They require masks to enter, provide gloves to those who don't have them, and allow only 10 customers in the store at one time. All employees wear masks and gloves.
You get a personal sales rep at the door and he/she handles the transactions from start to walking it to the register.

I feel that as businesses open up again, that's the policy they should enforce.

Rusty--If you know how to get to Hawkinsville, go to M&T Meats. My wife declared we are no longer going out to get steaks.


pops42 - 5/24/2020 at 02:44 PM

quote:
quote:
The 805 started opening up today - Phase 2. We'll see. Right now, I'll just stick to going to the supermarkets along with a few restaurants for take out. Might take my truck to the car wash.

Just hope everyone out and about is safe and not stupid. The operative word is "hope"...
Went today to a market in Hawkinsville (about 35 miles from here) to replenish the meat supply. They require masks to enter, provide gloves to those who don't have them, and allow only 10 customers in the store at one time. All employees wear masks and gloves.
You get a personal sales rep at the door and he/she handles the transactions from start to walking it to the register.

I feel that as businesses open up again, that's the policy they should enforce.

Rusty--If you know how to get to Hawkinsville, go to M&T Meats. My wife declared we are no longer going out to get steaks.
Lets hope your meats were not infected by covid19 infected workers.


nebish - 5/26/2020 at 02:46 AM

quote:
Lets hope your meats were not infected by covid19 infected workers.


Always the optimist.


nebish - 5/26/2020 at 02:51 AM

quote:
Dr. Anthony Fauci says staying closed for too long could cause ‘irreparable damage’

Stay-at-home orders intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus could end up causing “irreparable damage” if imposed for too long, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said.
“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” he told CNBC.


“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” Fauci said during an interview with CNBC’s Meg Tirrell on “Halftime Report.”

He said the U.S. had to institute severe measures because Covid-19 cases were exploding then. “But now is the time, depending upon where you are and what your situation is, to begin to seriously look at reopening the economy, reopening the country to try to get back to some degree of normal.”
untry to try to get back to some degree of normal.”

However, Fauci also cautioned states against reducing social distancing measures too quickly, adding they must take “very significant precautions.”

“In general, I think most of the country is doing it in a prudent way,” he said. “There are obviously some situations where people might be jumping over that. I just say please proceed with caution if you’re going to do that.”


If you wait long enough these people will state opinions all over the map and contradict themselves, even Fauci.

We are all only human. Nobody really knows.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 03:02 AM

quote:
Nobody really knows.


This has been my stated belief from day one


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 11:32 AM

quote:
quote:
Dr. Anthony Fauci says staying closed for too long could cause ‘irreparable damage’

Stay-at-home orders intended to curb the spread of the coronavirus could end up causing “irreparable damage” if imposed for too long, White House health advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said.
“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” he told CNBC.


“I don’t want people to think that any of us feel that staying locked down for a prolonged period of time is the way to go,” Fauci said during an interview with CNBC’s Meg Tirrell on “Halftime Report.”

He said the U.S. had to institute severe measures because Covid-19 cases were exploding then. “But now is the time, depending upon where you are and what your situation is, to begin to seriously look at reopening the economy, reopening the country to try to get back to some degree of normal.”
untry to try to get back to some degree of normal.”

However, Fauci also cautioned states against reducing social distancing measures too quickly, adding they must take “very significant precautions.”

“In general, I think most of the country is doing it in a prudent way,” he said. “There are obviously some situations where people might be jumping over that. I just say please proceed with caution if you’re going to do that.”


If you wait long enough these people will state opinions all over the map and contradict themselves, even Fauci.

We are all only human. Nobody really knows.


What we do know is that cases & deaths continue to go up. That should tell us something. And in some of the states that have opened up in some form, the trends have reversed and are heading back up. Do people really wonder why?

So, nobody may know, but in the end, the math doesn't care and life either goes on or doesn't. And a pandemic will continue to cause destruction regardless of how many people go pray in churches or do shots in a bar.


cyclone88 - 5/26/2020 at 01:45 PM

quote:
What we do know is that cases & deaths continue to go up. That should tell us something. And in some of the states that have opened up in some form, the trends have reversed and are heading back up. Do people really wonder why?

It does make one wonder what state could possibly "guarantee" a full house - no social distancing - for the RNC in late August should Trump decide NC is moving too slowly or the NC governor doesn't relax seating capacity based on the health & safety information he examines. FL, TX, & GA are all mentioned as possible replacements suggesting their governors will turn a blind eye to whatever spikes may appear in the next few months. The price of breaking a contract w/the City of Charlotte, of course, is nothing to a pres using Other People's Money or no consideration for legal obligations.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 03:14 PM

quote:
quote:
What we do know is that cases & deaths continue to go up. That should tell us something. And in some of the states that have opened up in some form, the trends have reversed and are heading back up. Do people really wonder why?

It does make one wonder what state could possibly "guarantee" a full house - no social distancing - for the RNC in late August should Trump decide NC is moving too slowly or the NC governor doesn't relax seating capacity based on the health & safety information he examines. FL, TX, & GA are all mentioned as possible replacements suggesting their governors will turn a blind eye to whatever spikes may appear in the next few months. The price of breaking a contract w/the City of Charlotte, of course, is nothing to a pres using Other People's Money or no consideration for legal obligations.

I think there's a lot of bluster behind Dr. Trump's threat. Think about this - how many delegates would really feel good and feel safe hanging out for several days in a 20,000 seat or whatever size arena and doing a bunch of side partying with fellow delegates? You wonder if they think the dangers will...puff one day it'll be gone as the good doctor says, and it'll coincide with his crowning as the GOP candidate?

How many of you would want to attend a political event like this? No different at a big venue like MSG or a large outside shed.


cyclone88 - 5/26/2020 at 04:30 PM

quote:
I think there's a lot of bluster behind Dr. Trump's threat. Think about this - how many delegates would really feel good and feel safe hanging out for several days in a 20,000 seat or whatever size arena and doing a bunch of side partying with fellow delegates? You wonder if they think the dangers will...puff one day it'll be gone as the good doctor says, and it'll coincide with his crowning as the GOP candidate?

Yes, a lot of bluster & bullying, but his disciples don't really buy that COVID19 exists or that social distancing makes a difference. The same people that are marching on state capitols shoulder to shoulder & ignoring mask & distancing policies in the newly re-opened states might love cheering him on in a crowded venue. Trump's invincible & so are they or so they believe. Once again, it's Trump's obsession w/numbers. He doesn't want to look out into a 50% capacity arena (or worse have TV camera shots of one); he wants 110% so he can have a crowd even larger than his inauguration (not physically possible except in his mind).


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 05:12 PM

quote:
How many of you would want to attend a political event like this? No different at a big venue like MSG or a large outside shed.


Not yet. But that would be MY choice.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 05:39 PM

quote:
quote:
I think there's a lot of bluster behind Dr. Trump's threat. Think about this - how many delegates would really feel good and feel safe hanging out for several days in a 20,000 seat or whatever size arena and doing a bunch of side partying with fellow delegates? You wonder if they think the dangers will...puff one day it'll be gone as the good doctor says, and it'll coincide with his crowning as the GOP candidate?

Yes, a lot of bluster & bullying, but his disciples don't really buy that COVID19 exists or that social distancing makes a difference. The same people that are marching on state capitols shoulder to shoulder & ignoring mask & distancing policies in the newly re-opened states might love cheering him on in a crowded venue. Trump's invincible & so are they or so they believe. Once again, it's Trump's obsession w/numbers. He doesn't want to look out into a 50% capacity arena (or worse have TV camera shots of one); he wants 110% so he can have a crowd even larger than his inauguration (not physically possible except in his mind).


Question, cyclone - Can the RNC have attendees sign some sort of a liability waiver if those who choose to attend and contract Covid so that the RNC doesn't take responsibility? Same question for NC?


cyclone88 - 5/26/2020 at 09:15 PM

quote:
Question, cyclone - Can the RNC have attendees sign some sort of a liability waiver if those who choose to attend and contract Covid so that the RNC doesn't take responsibility? Same question for NC?


Short answer: NO. You can't consent to something that a state has mandated against.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 09:54 PM

So a lot to ponder.

Who knows where the pandemic will be at time of lead up to and during time frame of convention. How many more cases and deaths? What will be the culture in 2 months - rebel for "freedom" vs believe in science and take precautions of remaining healthy?

The state has to be willing to allow a convention a couple months from now. A lot of logistics goes into these events. Planning has to occur with contingencies in place. If NC says no, can another state other than Trump's state of mind host a convention in this time frame?

Delegates attend at their own risk. If they do attend, will they do social distancing and wear masks. Think about fearless leader not wearing a mask and 90 + pct of the audience doing this - not an optic that Trump would want because it would show an acknowledgement of reality & not the hoax he wanted America to believe and that it hasn't disappeared as he said it would. Or would the audience just play follow the leader and do as he does?

If delegates attend, and numbers contract Covid, where does this leave Trump & GOP? These delegates will go running for medical help knowing they risked their own health and safety to attend an event probably too early in the cycle.


MartinD28 - 5/26/2020 at 10:00 PM

quote:
quote:
Question, cyclone - Can the RNC have attendees sign some sort of a liability waiver if those who choose to attend and contract Covid so that the RNC doesn't take responsibility? Same question for NC?


Short answer: NO. You can't consent to something that a state has mandated against.




Sorry for the follow up, but take the state out of the equation if this is possible. If NC or any other state has not mandated against, then is there liability or liability waiver potential for RNC given the live pandemic and known risks? If answer = yes, is this something a political party would consider for an event like this or practical?

Or maybe this is just too hypothetical.


tcatanesi - 5/26/2020 at 10:59 PM

"I love the Great State of North Carolina, so much so that I insisted on having the Republican National Convention in Charlotte at the end of August," Trump said in a series of tweets. "Unfortunately, Democrat Governor, @RoyCooperNC is still in Shutdown mood & unable to guarantee that by August we will be allowed full attendance in the Arena. In other words, we would be spending millions of dollars building the Arena to a very high standard without even knowing if the Democrat Governor would allow the Republican Party to fully occupy the space."


Yes, he loves the state of North Carolina so much that he wants the citizens to endanger their lives to satisfy his ego by allowing "full attendance in the Arena."

WTF is "Shutdown mood"??


cyclone88 - 5/26/2020 at 11:48 PM

quote:
Sorry for the follow up, but take the state out of the equation if this is possible. If NC or any other state has not mandated against, then is there liability or liability waiver potential for RNC given the live pandemic and known risks? If answer = yes, is this something a political party would consider for an event like this or practical?

Or maybe this is just too hypothetical.


You've hit upon hot legal topics. Not a day goes by that there isn't a webinar by the ABA, state, or city bar association addressing some aspect of COVID19 - liability, force majeur, enforceability & indemnification of leases, contracts & insurance, impossibility & conflicts between international laws. I got a notice for one this week re the the question of criminal liability (negligence to manslaughter) should someone intentionally fail to disclose their testing status & knowingly put themselves in a position to infect others (much like not disclosing HIV status to a potential sex partner).

A state is always going to have a compelling interest in protecting its occupants. National political conventions have the unique circumstance of people coming into the city/state from all 50 states plus territories all of which have different COVID19 statistics & policies over a varying amount of time & staying for varying duration. That alone increases risk to a state's citizens exponentially. There's no way (so far) to absolutely identify to a judicial standard how a person contracted COVID19 at a conference - the main events, a hospitality suite, the flight out, shuttle bus ride from the airport, hotel, restaurant, rental car, or a person - so a blanket waiver for the sponsor (the RNC) would essentially fail.

Although there are projections on which national, state, & local leadership in government & private sectors rely for short-term planning, there aren't any that I know of that can guarantee that social distancing wouldn't apply to any specific venue in late August given the broad range of characteristics of attendees.





cyclone88 - 5/27/2020 at 12:14 AM

quote:
So a lot to ponder.

Who knows where the pandemic will be at time of lead up to and during time frame of convention. How many more cases and deaths? What will be the culture in 2 months - rebel for "freedom" vs believe in science and take precautions of remaining healthy?

The state has to be willing to allow a convention a couple months from now. A lot of logistics goes into these events. Planning has to occur with contingencies in place. If NC says no, can another state other than Trump's state of mind host a convention in this time frame?


We're talking Trump & bluster. The RNC has budgeted for the convention. Trump - the great dealmaker - is acting like he's personally negotiating a lease where for "millions" in buildout, the "gate" is guaranteed. (The "gate" in this case is asses in seats for TV cameras).

The threshold of capacity is set by whatever the state's policy is for COVID19 statistics. Unless a state like TX says "we're open at 100% capacity no matter how many new cases, hospitalizations, & deaths," a state is going to have some capacity cap that isn't predictable now for late August. As I understand it, NC hasn't said it's not holding the convention; it's said the capacity of the arena in August is undetermined.

There are some people here who may know just how quickly & costly it would be to turn an arena into a convention site & back again given that stages/sets are built/struck all the time for shows.


2112 - 5/27/2020 at 02:07 AM

quote:
quote:
So a lot to ponder.

Who knows where the pandemic will be at time of lead up to and during time frame of convention. How many more cases and deaths? What will be the culture in 2 months - rebel for "freedom" vs believe in science and take precautions of remaining healthy?

The state has to be willing to allow a convention a couple months from now. A lot of logistics goes into these events. Planning has to occur with contingencies in place. If NC says no, can another state other than Trump's state of mind host a convention in this time frame?


We're talking Trump & bluster. The RNC has budgeted for the convention. Trump - the great dealmaker - is acting like he's personally negotiating a lease where for "millions" in buildout, the "gate" is guaranteed. (The "gate" in this case is asses in seats for TV cameras).

The threshold of capacity is set by whatever the state's policy is for COVID19 statistics. Unless a state like TX says "we're open at 100% capacity no matter how many new cases, hospitalizations, & deaths," a state is going to have some capacity cap that isn't predictable now for late August. As I understand it, NC hasn't said it's not holding the convention; it's said the capacity of the arena in August is undetermined.

There are some people here who may know just how quickly & costly it would be to turn an arena into a convention site & back again given that stages/sets are built/struck all the time for shows.


If they can't have full capacity, then they can always talk to Clint Eastwood about addressing empty chairs during a Republican conversation.


Jerry - 5/27/2020 at 02:37 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
The 805 started opening up today - Phase 2. We'll see. Right now, I'll just stick to going to the supermarkets along with a few restaurants for take out. Might take my truck to the car wash.

Just hope everyone out and about is safe and not stupid. The operative word is "hope"...
Went today to a market in Hawkinsville (about 35 miles from here) to replenish the meat supply. They require masks to enter, provide gloves to those who don't have them, and allow only 10 customers in the store at one time. All employees wear masks and gloves.
You get a personal sales rep at the door and he/she handles the transactions from start to walking it to the register.

I feel that as businesses open up again, that's the policy they should enforce.

Rusty--If you know how to get to Hawkinsville, go to M&T Meats. My wife declared we are no longer going out to get steaks.
Lets hope your meats were not infected by covid19 infected workers.


Well Pops, even if you get pork with the trichinosis cysts in it, if you cook it right, you don't get hurt.

How was your ham sandwich the other day? You do know that hogs like to roll in their own crap and eat garbage?
But they do make tasty sausage.


adhill58 - 5/27/2020 at 09:49 PM

I get the argument that not all masks are effective as others, and since there are still shortages, the health workers should get the best ones.

What I don't get is acting like being asked to wear a mask is like having your foot amputated. It may not be proven to stop every case of transmission, it may never be PROVEN that they stop any transmission. However, it is not hard to put on a mask when you go inside a public place. It just isn't hard to do. If there is a chance that you may be an asymptomatic carrier, which is possible unless you get tested every day, it really is the right thing to do. If you would want an ER nurse who may have just treated someone with this or any other contagion to wear a mask around you if you had to go to the ER, you should really want to wear a mask around other people.

It is not control of the masses, if nobody gets fined or imprisoned for not doing it, which they don't. It is basically a request of decency.

I don't wear a mask in public because I have been forced to, I wear one because I choose to be thoughtful of the possibility that I could unknowingly spread this virus.

I think of the unbelievable guilt of the staff members who think they may have been the ones to bring it into a nursing home. I couldn't live with myself if I got someone sick because I thought wearing a mask was too much hassle.

Even if masks just are a visual reminder that things are not normal and social distancing which is proven to help should be followed, then wearing masks can help.

I feel like a lot (not all) of the protests across the board have been for the "freedom to not really give a sh!t about anyone else" or to prove that "nobody controls me".

I don't want people to be controlled by wearing masks in public, I would appreciate them to have the self-control to wear masks in public.


cyclone88 - 5/27/2020 at 10:51 PM

quote:
What I don't get is acting like being asked to wear a mask is like having your foot amputated.

100%. I've never understood the downside of wearing a mask.

The only inconvenience I've come up w/is that the ill-mannered will essentially be forced to cover their sneezes & coughs & be unable to use the public sidewalks as their personal spitting ground. Beyond that, I've got nothing.


nebish - 5/28/2020 at 03:01 AM

For the past 10 days Ohio is still in the 8000-9000 daily test range. Supposedly we have the capacity with the machines to run over 20,000 a day, but the components and the labor to run them is still lacking. The national guard is going to test all nursing home staff and residents who may've been exposed or suspected of being exposed in the coming days so will have to see if that effects the overall testing number. We have almost 1000 nursing homes.

New daily cases continue to range between 500-600. We continue to have about 900 patients a day in the hospital and ICU patients of 313 is the lowest it's been in 2 months. Daily deaths continue to be about 40 per day with the 7 day average sometimes dipping lower and sometimes jumping higher.

My county is seeing consistent new cases in the 14-16 range, about half of what it was 3 weeks ago. Hospitalizations are ticking up to about 3 a day now, the highest it's been since May 1. We had been about 1.5 to 2 per day just a week or two ago. Deaths continue at about 2-3 a day, down from 5-6 a day earlier this month.


nebish - 5/30/2020 at 10:35 PM

This week I heard:

According to some "experts" reporting for Journal Science said 6' distance might not be enough, but wear masks.

Then the WHO says if you are healthy you only need to wear a mask if you are caring for somebody with covid.

And Dr Fauci says we might have a deployable vaccine by November-December, which when Trump has suggested that he got laughed at and Fauci himself has said repeatedly that most likely would take 12-18 months, or longer to develop.

So while everyone else is listening to the experts you can wake me up when they know what the hell they are talking about.


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