Thread: Where are the Republican Mental Health Solutions?

adhill58 - 8/4/2019 at 05:04 AM

Twenty years after Columbine and so many mass shootings that they have become shoulder shrug inducing, why haven't the mental health fixes constantly pitched by the gun-sale-cheerleading Republicans stopped this insanity?

Not asking for a debate about gun control, really, we have had that after other shootings. I just want to know how things are working out for the most used alternative to doing anything that might get in the way of gun companies making as much money as possible while people die because they go out in public.

Where have they been implemented and how many mass shootings have they stopped? I live in a very conservative state and I have never seen/heard a public service announcement about how to get mental health help if I am contemplating a mass shooting. (I hear the gambling addiction hotline number all the time.) How is this supposed to work? I have never heard anything about it other than from Republicans officials at press conferences after tragedies.


BrerRabbit - 8/4/2019 at 04:12 PM

Transcortical lead therapy


cyclone88 - 8/4/2019 at 05:02 PM

quote:
Twenty years after Columbine and so many mass shootings that they have become shoulder shrug inducing, why haven't the mental health fixes constantly pitched by the gun-sale-cheerleading Republicans stopped this insanity?

Where have they been implemented and how many mass shootings have they stopped? I live in a very conservative state and I have never seen/heard a public service announcement about how to get mental health help if I am contemplating a mass shooting. (I hear the gambling addiction hotline number all the time.) How is this supposed to work? I have never heard anything about it other than from Republicans officials at press conferences after tragedies.


Excellent question that points out the erroneous assumption that inadequate mental health services are equally to blame for mass shootings as inadequate gun control. Being an ANGRY man w/financial or social problems isn't mental illness. The DSM-V (the psychiatric bible of diagnoses) doesn't classify anger as a mental illness nor offer a treatment plan for the disease of anger.

I don't recall ANY of the mass shooters having had a psychiatric diagnosis such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or narcissistic personality disorder. Clinical depression might have been diagnosed in one of the Columbine shooters. Otherwise, depression is a term misused by many, including journalists, to mean the blues that eventually go away & has nothing to do w/mental health.

Upon investigation, the shooters all turned out to have a social problem - no social skills, job loss, unable to form or maintain a relationship, isolation, gambling debts/financial problems, or a long history of childhood family disruption. The TX shooter was just a racist w/a gun like the Charlottesville racist who mowed people down w/a car. There is no mental health treatment for ANGRY or RACIST people.

You make another excellent point in that addiction (alcohol, drug, gambling, sex) is the only ailment that gets any attention. It's profitable!!! Addiction centers that purport to treat virtually any addiction are privately run. They get repeat business when the client (they're not called patients) relapse & their families/employers think another stint in rehab will help. They can afford to advertise.

With the exception of an occasional PSA for a suicide helpline, the only mental health advertising is for a specific drug touted by its manufacturer. The advice for most people who think they need psychiatric help is to "talk to their doctor."

So, treatments aren't being offered because there's no evidence that shooters are mentally ill, but addiction treatment (especially during this Opioid Crisis) is big business in the US.





cyclone88 - 8/4/2019 at 05:09 PM

quote:
Transcortical lead therapy


I don't think that's been tried as a prophylaxis.

Have any of the shooters who remained alive afterwards received a capital sentence?


pops42 - 8/4/2019 at 06:41 PM

The president has significant mental Health issues, but calls himself a "stable genius ".


BIGV - 8/4/2019 at 09:05 PM

quote:
Twenty years after Columbine and so many mass shootings that they have become shoulder shrug inducing, why haven't the mental health fixes constantly pitched by the gun-sale-cheerleading Republicans stopped this insanity?


Are you suggesting that these insane behaviors have nothing to do with Mental Health?


tbomike - 8/4/2019 at 09:08 PM

Remember when.

Donald Trump laughed and joked after a supporter suggested shooting Mexican migrants at a rally in May 2019.

The clip of the interaction is once again spreading across social media, as the US reels from the El Paso massacre.

“When you have 15,000 people marching up, and you have hundreds and hundreds of [immigrants], and you have two or three border security people that are brave and great – and don’t forget we don’t let them and we can’t let them use weapons,” Mr Trump said, to an audience of thousands in Florida.

“We can’t. Other countries do, we can’t. I would never do that. But how do you stop these people?”

In response someone from the audience shouted: “Shoot them!”

Mr Trump then appeared to laugh before shaking his head and saying: “That’s only in the Panhandle you can get away with that statement.”

The crowd then erupted into laughter and cheers, and Mr Trump added: “Only in the Panhandle!”

The Florida Panhandle is a region in the north west of the state.

The interaction was remembered with anger online, in the aftermath of the El Paso massacre.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2019/may/09/trump-laughs-after-au dience-member-suggests-shooting-migrants-video


adhill58 - 8/4/2019 at 09:20 PM

quote:
quote:
Twenty years after Columbine and so many mass shootings that they have become shoulder shrug inducing, why haven't the mental health fixes constantly pitched by the gun-sale-cheerleading Republicans stopped this insanity?


Are you suggesting that these insane behaviors have nothing to do with Mental Health?


I am not. I am asking what mental health fixes have been implemented by people who want to keep our nation flooded with dangerous weapons. If they have started any programs, have they been successful in bringing the number of mass shootings down? Or, is this just code for "I get campaign money from the companies that make big money from selling these guns, and that is more important to me than whether innocent people die."?


Are you suggesting that a an insane person should be able to get access to a weapon that makes him able to shoot 36 people in one minute? That is what happened in Dayton. The only other real way to hurt that many people so quickly would be to use an explosive devise, which is illegal. Bombs serve a purpose in war just like military-style firearms, but they have no reason to be in the hands of civilians.

[Edited on 8/5/2019 by adhill58]


cyclone88 - 8/4/2019 at 09:29 PM

quote:
Remember when.
Donald Trump laughed and joked after a supporter suggested shooting Mexican migrants at a rally in May 2019.


Hardly a presidential response. That comment plus his post-Charlottesville remarks & all the other overtly inflammatory off-the-cuff remarks & kneejerk tweets are what has worried many Americans since the commencement of this presidency - someone would take those remarks as a call to action and actually kill people. Do I think Trump intends for people to act on them? No. Do I think even now he recognizes the danger of his comments? No. Is he going to stop? No.


MartinD28 - 8/4/2019 at 11:38 PM

quote:
quote:
Remember when.
Donald Trump laughed and joked after a supporter suggested shooting Mexican migrants at a rally in May 2019.


Hardly a presidential response. That comment plus his post-Charlottesville remarks & all the other overtly inflammatory off-the-cuff remarks & kneejerk tweets are what has worried many Americans since the commencement of this presidency - someone would take those remarks as a call to action and actually kill people. Do I think Trump intends for people to act on them? No. Do I think even now he recognizes the danger of his comments? No. Is he going to stop? No.

I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words. However, it certainly seems like his repeated use of words of hate perpetrate actions (cause & effect). This weekend is not the first time, but it follows closely to his attacks on Congressional Reps and attacks on American cities in the last two weeks. The manifesto from the El Paso shooter shares Trump's words & ideas from rallies and tweets. Why is it that hate crimes are up during the Trump Presidency? Is this just some aberration or coincidence?


cyclone88 - 8/5/2019 at 12:14 AM

quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words. However, it certainly seems like his repeated use of words of hate perpetrate actions (cause & effect). This weekend is not the first time, but it follows closely to his attacks on Congressional Reps and attacks on American cities in the last two weeks. The manifesto from the El Paso shooter shares Trump's words & ideas from rallies and tweets. Why is it that hate crimes are up during the Trump Presidency? Is this just some aberration or coincidence?

I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to perpetrate a large scale act of domestic terrorism against people of a specific nationality fueled by Trump's rhetoric. I give the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement that may have prevented other attacks in planning stages, particularly where daily crossings of the border while a blind eye is turned have been consistently reported. This can't be likened to attacks on blacks, Jews, and Muslims that have broader and longer histories of hate. This rests on the heightened tensions brought front & center by Trump starting w/his pre-election "rapists & murderers" characterization of Mexicans. The fact that prosecution of this as a hate crime is even being debated is absurd.


adhill58 - 8/5/2019 at 12:16 AM

Seriously, I am genuinely curious about what the Republican ideas are for stopping this crap based on the mental health of the mass shooters. No answer I guess...


pops42 - 8/5/2019 at 12:24 AM

quote:
Seriously, I am genuinely curious about what the Republican ideas are for stopping this crap based on the mental health of the mass shooters. No answer I guess...
Sell more guns, arm more people, prayers for the dead.


cyclone88 - 8/5/2019 at 12:47 AM

quote:
Seriously, I am genuinely curious about what the Republican ideas are for stopping this crap based on the mental health of the mass shooters. No answer I guess...

My non-partisan answer is that there is NO mental health solution for mass shootings because there isn't evidence that the mass shooters HAVE a diagnosable mental illness. These guys are sociopaths just like other pre-meditated murderers who end up behind bars. You might as well be looking for a mental health solution to gang wars.


adhill58 - 8/5/2019 at 03:28 AM

https://www.vox.com/a/mass-shootings-america-sandy-hook-gun-violence


This is a decent graphic about mass shootings in that have happened since the Sandy Hook shooting. It counts an incident in which at least four people were shot as a mass shooting. Using this definition, there have been 2,191 mass shootings since Sandy Hook. There has not been a single calendar week during the years of 2013-2019 without a mass shooting. Obviously, this is a wide definition, but selling more guns hasn't really seemed to fix the problem.


BIGV - 8/5/2019 at 04:23 AM

quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


2112 - 8/5/2019 at 06:11 AM

quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


So, only the actual shooter is responsible in every case? A mafia boss orders a shooting, but only the guy who pulls the trigger is responsible? The poison used in death camps in WWII were pored in by other prisoners, so were those other prisoners the only ones responsible? Of course the shooter is responsible, but other factors are at play. Maybe someone who brainwashed someone of weak mind might hold some responsibility as well don't you think?


adhill58 - 8/5/2019 at 01:21 PM

"First of all, Mr. President, as Lieutenant Governor of Texas, like you, I have some people that really like me some people that really don’t. But the police officers in Texas know without question, regardless of their political party, that they have my support and I have their back. I’m concerned that police officers across the country, they know you support law enforcement, of course. But do they really in their heart feel like you’re doing everything you can to protect their lives? Yesterday, you had meetings at the White House and afterwards you said that the tensions between police and between black Americans is only going to get worse. Words matter. Your words matter much more than mine. Everything you say matters and I would ask you to be careful, when there is an incident, of not being too quick to condemn the police without due process and until the facts are known. I know that’s not your intention, but again, words have meaning." -Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick speaking to President Obama at a town hall event after the shooting of five Dallas police officers in 2016.

Patrick, at the same event, asked the son of Louisiana police shooting victim Alton Sterling to stand next to him and said, "Take the hateful rhetoric out of this and stop the violence. That has to be first. We both ask you to do that, Mr. President."


Later on Fox News he said this: "And I do blame people on social media with their hatred towards police. I do blame — I saw Jesse Jackson, I think it, was on Fox the other night, calling police racist without any facts. I do blame former Black Lives Matter protesters. Last night was peaceful but others have not been, and we heard 'pigs in a blanket.' "

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

So, Dan Patrick, who is the archetypal NRA stooge, has no problem trying to pin the blame of the killing of police officers on Obama when Obama had never even called police "rapists" and "murderers". Funny how things change. He doesn't sound like he believes that the blame lies only with the person who pulls the trigger. He thinks people can be influenced to act violently by what a president says and what crap gets posted on social media.

Surely, we can all agree that Obama was much more careful about what he said and how he said it than our current hate-tweeting ass.

I am sure that he now agrees with Trump that this weekends killings were nothing more than mental health issues.


MartinD28 - 8/5/2019 at 01:28 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


So, only the actual shooter is responsible in every case? A mafia boss orders a shooting, but only the guy who pulls the trigger is responsible? The poison used in death camps in WWII were pored in by other prisoners, so were those other prisoners the only ones responsible? Of course the shooter is responsible, but other factors are at play. Maybe someone who brainwashed someone of weak mind might hold some responsibility as well don't you think?


2112,

Here's a good example of cause & effect of amped up rhetoric. This is what happened outside a Trump rally last week. Trump rallies are a fault free zone.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/man-arrested-for-punching-anti-trum p-protester-in-the-face

Trump previously in rallies had told those in attendance he might pay for legal bills.

https://time.com/4256809/donald-trump-l/




cyclone88 - 8/5/2019 at 02:21 PM

quote:
What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


That is precisely where it belongs.

I asked a psychiatrist colleague this morning what her position re mental health & mass shooters was. The response: "There is no diagnosis of Loser in the DSM-V."


cyclone88 - 8/5/2019 at 02:32 PM

quote:

Trump previously in rallies had told those in attendance he might pay for legal bills.
https://time.com/4256809/donald-trump-l/


Sorry to jump in to your post to 2112, but example 2 is when Trump was a candidate in 2016. That's also when he started the Mexican immigrants are "rapists & murderers" theme. He was a private citizen & could pay legal bills if he chose. Voters were free to cast their ballots not in his favor.

As president, he should realize that his words have weight. Sadly, he thinks his words have always carried weight because he's The Donald & hasn't toned anything down. Nor is he going to. We are in the Catch 22 position of simultaneously saying "respect the office of the presidency" & "ignore him."


crazyjoe - 8/5/2019 at 02:35 PM

quote:
quote:
Twenty years after Columbine and so many mass shootings that they have become shoulder shrug inducing, why haven't the mental health fixes constantly pitched by the gun-sale-cheerleading Republicans stopped this insanity?


Are you suggesting that these insane behaviors have nothing to do with Mental Health?


Disturbed indeed, but why are we using mental illness as an all encompassing excuse to brush away the issue and so easily excuse these episodes, in theory You could then use this excuse for every single person who takes another's life? These mentally affected folks are the most vulnerable to influence by outside forces and rhetorics, such as the garbage constantly spewed by their big orange hero, they feel encouraged and justified, by our ass hole and criminally responsible leader, this is precisely why You see them all coming to the surface now, they are triggered and emboldened by this dickhead Trump.........Peace..........joe


BIGV - 8/5/2019 at 02:48 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Twenty years after Columbine and so many mass shootings that they have become shoulder shrug inducing, why haven't the mental health fixes constantly pitched by the gun-sale-cheerleading Republicans stopped this insanity?


Are you suggesting that these insane behaviors have nothing to do with Mental Health?


Disturbed indeed, but why are we using mental illness as an all encompassing excuse to brush away the issue and so easily excuse these episodes, in theory You could then use this excuse for every single person who takes another's life?


Not just "another person's life" the lives of MANY people at one time. What sane person thinks this is acceptable?

quote:
These mentally affected folks are the most vulnerable to influence by outside forces and rhetorics, such as the garbage constantly spewed by their big orange hero, they feel encouraged and justified, by our ass hole and criminally responsible leader, this is precisely why You see them all coming to the surface now, they are triggered and emboldened by this dickhead.


Well, there ya go, can't be responsible for your own decision making? Influenced enough by others that you would actually go out and commit mass Murder?..You are mentally ill.

'criminally responsible leader"..At what point are you responsible for your own actions?


crazyjoe - 8/5/2019 at 03:45 PM

Well, Charles Manson was held responsible for the Sharon Tate murders for doing nothing more than what Trump has done, influencing and inciting weak minded and mentally vulnerable, internally angry people to go out and commit violence, am I wrong???...........Peace......joe


BrerRabbit - 8/5/2019 at 05:36 PM

quote:
Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism


Murderer rails against Hispanics, murderer targets Hispanics. This was an ethnically motivated atrocity. Why do you always choose to nazi that? Oops looks like spellcheck jumped on "not see."





[Edited on 8/5/2019 by BrerRabbit]


2112 - 8/5/2019 at 06:00 PM

quote:
Well, Charles Manson was held responsible for the Sharon Tate murders for doing nothing more than what Trump has done, influencing and inciting weak minded and mentally vulnerable, internally angry people to go out and commit violence, am I wrong???...........Peace......joe


You're not wrong. Jim Jones as well. In each case, it is always the outsiders fault. Always blame the media. That is the easy target. The only difference is when the cult is so big and wears MAGA hats, it becomes mainstream. But it doesn't keep the weak minded ones from hearing and reacting to the dog whistles.


BrerRabbit - 8/5/2019 at 06:12 PM

quote:
You're not wrong. Jim Jones as well. In each case, it is always the outsiders fault. Always blame the media. That is the easy target. The only difference is when the cult is so big and wears MAGA hats, it becomes mainstream. But it doesn't keep the weak minded ones from hearing and reacting to the dog whistles.


While the higher functioning "strong minded" devotees get more puffed up with glee and confidence every time the "weak minded" worker drones carry out their program. Whereupon the upper caste cultists act all shocked and immediately set to work protecting the Central Brain of Hive Mind.

Absolutely no point in engaging it in dialogue.


Bhawk - 8/5/2019 at 06:32 PM

quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


The shooter wrote a manifesto. It talks alot about...

(checks notes)

...color and racism.


Bhawk - 8/5/2019 at 07:08 PM

quote:
Well, there ya go, can't be responsible for your own decision making?


The dude drove nine hours to kill as many Hispanic people as he could. He's taken responsibility for it, hell, he's proud of it.

What if he truly believes that America is being invaded by Hispanic people as a part of the Great Replacement, and he's fighting for the honor and sovereignty of his country?

Let's not pretend there's not been a ton of rhetoric and such portraying immigrants as sub-human invaders. Are you really that shocked someone took that to another level?

Is white supremacy a sign of mental illness?


MartinD28 - 8/5/2019 at 07:08 PM

quote:
quote:
You're not wrong. Jim Jones as well. In each case, it is always the outsiders fault. Always blame the media. That is the easy target. The only difference is when the cult is so big and wears MAGA hats, it becomes mainstream. But it doesn't keep the weak minded ones from hearing and reacting to the dog whistles.


While the higher functioning "strong minded" devotees get more puffed up with glee and confidence every time the "weak minded" worker drones carry out their program. Whereupon the upper caste cultists act all shocked and immediately set to work protecting the Central Brain of Hive Mind.

Absolutely no point in engaging it in dialogue.


This is the perfect analogy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great post.


BIGV - 8/5/2019 at 08:23 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


Who wrote it? THE SHOOTER

The shooter wrote a manifesto. It talks alot about...

(checks notes)

...color and racism.


adhill58 - 8/5/2019 at 08:28 PM

No talk from Trump today about how these mental health fixes are going to work...


Bhawk - 8/5/2019 at 08:31 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


Who wrote it? THE SHOOTER

The shooter wrote a manifesto. It talks alot about...

(checks notes)

...color and racism.



You're right, the shooter wrote it.

"but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism"

No, it was the shooter's answer.


BIGV - 8/5/2019 at 09:09 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


Who wrote it? THE SHOOTER

The shooter wrote a manifesto. It talks alot about...

(checks notes)

...color and racism.



You're right, the shooter wrote it.

"but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism"

No, it was the shooter's answer.


Then we agree?.....The sole responsibility falls on the shooter?....."Influences"..lol....the ultimate decision was his.


2112 - 8/5/2019 at 09:18 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


Who wrote it? THE SHOOTER

The shooter wrote a manifesto. It talks alot about...

(checks notes)

...color and racism.



You're right, the shooter wrote it.

"but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism"

No, it was the shooter's answer.


Then we agree?.....The sole responsibility falls on the shooter?....."Influences"..lol....the ultimate decision was his.


Pretty sure Hitler never pulled a trigger either. Never mind his influence. The fault always lies with the shooter. It's unfair to blame Hitler for anything. The sole responsibility lies with the shooter...always. Got it!


Bhawk - 8/5/2019 at 09:39 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


Who wrote it? THE SHOOTER

The shooter wrote a manifesto. It talks alot about...

(checks notes)

...color and racism.



You're right, the shooter wrote it.

"but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism"

No, it was the shooter's answer.


Then we agree?.....The sole responsibility falls on the shooter?....."Influences"..lol....the ultimate decision was his.


The sole responsibility? No.

You are a student of history. To dismiss any inflammatory rhetoric or communication from a powerful leader defies human history itself.

Unless, of course, one is willing to twist however far one needs to so he can prevent agreeing with anyone he perceives as a liberal. Then, all bets are off.


pops42 - 8/5/2019 at 09:59 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I agree that the white nationalist President may not intend for people to act on his words.



Well. there it is, it took a few posts, but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism.

What is wrong with placing the blame solely where it bongs?... ON THE SHOOTER


Who wrote it? THE SHOOTER

The shooter wrote a manifesto. It talks alot about...

(checks notes)

...color and racism.



You're right, the shooter wrote it.

"but once again the answer from the left always goes to color or racism"

No, it was the shooter's answer.


Then we agree?.....The sole responsibility falls on the shooter?....."Influences"..lol....the ultimate decision was his.
we have a president who spews venom and hatred toward Mexicans, calls them invaders, criminals, disease carriers, etc. we were bound to have a massacre of them. I did not see trump on tv calling out sympathy for the Mexican American community, and he won't, that would alienate his slimey supporters.


Skydog32103 - 8/5/2019 at 10:01 PM

we should be rejecting language from any leader that feeds into fear and hatred.


cyclone88 - 8/5/2019 at 10:19 PM

quote:
Well, Charles Manson was held responsible for the Sharon Tate murders for doing nothing more than what Trump has done, influencing and inciting weak minded and mentally vulnerable, internally angry people to go out and commit violence, am I wrong???...........Peace......joe

YES, YOU ARE WRONG. Charles Manson, a career criminal starting as a juvenile with theft, pimping, assault, rape among other counts didn't manage to turn himself into a successful musician but did become the leader of a cult of mostly young women groupies who whored, stole, & supported him. Manson lived with them in a communal setting, told them what to do, & kept them in check through drugs, rape & fear. Every commune member who made a statement to investigators said they feared Manson.

The Tate/LaBianca KILLERS were convicted of 1st degree murder which at the time carried a death sentence. Manson was ALSO convicted of 1st degree murder & conspiracy & sentenced to death. In the interim, CA overturned capital punishment so all sentences became life imprisonment.

Manson never raised a NGRI (insanity) plea. He was portrayed as a druggie, belligerent, angry man but not mentally ill. It was not until his final parole hearing in 2012 when he was 78 YEARS OLD that a psychiatrist suggested he might be schizophrenic but couldn't be certain.

So, no, the POTUS who was elected, has never been convicted of a violent crime, doesn't have interpersonal relationships w/any mass shooters, and doesn't personally & physically confine citizens to a commune & control them w/drugs & rape, CANNOT BE COMPARED TO CHARLES MANSON or any other cult leader who ordered hits. MANSON DID SIGNIFICANTLY MORE THAN TRUMP.

KILLERS are responsible for murder. If others were involved, they can be charged. However, there still is personal accountability in the US for murder at least.

Reasonable people have been concerned that Trump's rhetoric could incite some individual to act, especially when the killer's actions in Charlottesville weren't immediately & strongly condemned by Trump. Racist fanatics have been emboldened. However, even on a music site that 20 people read, it's ludicrous to compare Manson to Trump. I hate everything about Trump & his corrupt organization & administration, but I do believe in the criminal justice system. I was tempted to ignore your post, but I chose to respond one last time.

BTW, you might want to re-consider your username since mental illness terms are being tossed around like word salad.






BIGV - 8/5/2019 at 10:22 PM

quote:
we have a president who spews venom and hatred toward Mexicans, calls them invaders, criminals, disease carriers, etc. we were bound to have a massacre of them.


What a bunch of crap. ANYONE who hears "venom" from any source has the power to walk away. If you are affected enough to feel a "call to action" that is on you and NO ONE ELSE


pops42 - 8/6/2019 at 12:46 AM

quote:
quote:
we have a president who spews venom and hatred toward Mexicans, calls them invaders, criminals, disease carriers, etc. we were bound to have a massacre of them.


What a bunch of crap. ANYONE who hears "venom" from any source has the power to walk away. If you are affected enough to feel a "call to action" that is on you and NO ONE ELSE
Wrong. The scumbag in chief is provoking white nationalists, neo nazi punks and emboldens them with his big mouth.


BIGV - 8/6/2019 at 03:10 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
we have a president who spews venom and hatred toward Mexicans, calls them invaders, criminals, disease carriers, etc. we were bound to have a massacre of them.


What a bunch of crap. ANYONE who hears "venom" from any source has the power to walk away. If you are affected enough to feel a "call to action" that is on you and NO ONE ELSE
Wrong. The scumbag in chief is provoking white nationalists, neo nazi punks and emboldens them with his big mouth.


Is he provoking you?...Or are we going to give you the benefit of the doubt and applaud your ability to make your own decisions? Somewhere down the line these idiots are making a choice, that is on them, NO ONE ELSE.


pops42 - 8/6/2019 at 05:50 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
we have a president who spews venom and hatred toward Mexicans, calls them invaders, criminals, disease carriers, etc. we were bound to have a massacre of them.


What a bunch of crap. ANYONE who hears "venom" from any source has the power to walk away. If you are affected enough to feel a "call to action" that is on you and NO ONE ELSE
Wrong. The scumbag in chief is provoking white nationalists, neo nazi punks and emboldens them with his big mouth.


Is he provoking you?...Or are we going to give you the benefit of the doubt and applaud your ability to make your own decisions? Somewhere down the line these idiots are making a choice, that is on them, NO ONE ELSE.
Im not a far right neo-nazi or klansman " are you?" They take his speeches and tweets as a call to arms. What other president talked his kind of **** ?.


BIGV - 8/6/2019 at 06:15 AM

quote:
They take his speeches and tweets as a call to arms..


Well then, would not that make it their fault?...I mean they had a choice right?


Skydog32103 - 8/6/2019 at 12:52 PM

We should be rejecting any leader who uses language that feeds into a climate of fear.


adhill58 - 8/6/2019 at 12:57 PM

quote:
quote:
They take his speeches and tweets as a call to arms..


Well then, would not that make it their fault?...I mean they had a choice right?



Right, but if they are so mentally ill, are they really capable of making real choices? Should anyone take that into consideration when making inflammatory statements knowing that these same severely mentally ill people probably possess a bunch of guns?

Suppose I went to a mental hospital where people are involuntarily committed and told the patients that the people responsible for their confinement lived on the east side of town. Then one of them escapes and kills somebody on the east side of town. Is there more than one person to blame in that situation?

I just think that asking the mentally ill to take responsibility and make better decisions can't be the ONLY solution.


cyclone88 - 8/6/2019 at 02:25 PM

quote:

Right, but if they are so mentally ill, are they really capable of making real choices? Should anyone take that into consideration when making inflammatory statements knowing that these same severely mentally ill people probably possess a bunch of guns?

Suppose I went to a mental hospital where people are involuntarily committed and told the patients that the people responsible for their confinement lived on the east side of town. Then one of them escapes and kills somebody on the east side of town. Is there more than one person to blame in that situation?

I just think that asking the mentally ill to take responsibility and make better decisions can't be the ONLY solution.


Are you genuinely interested in mental health or are you just mocking people w/mental illness in this thread knowing that not one mass shooter had a mental illness?

You're probably surrounded by people w/a mental illness - OCD (compulsively checking their phone), bipolar disorder (overspending, overeating, over exercising), clinical depression (above average function when on medication), or anxiety disorder (fear of flying, meeting new people, or being in unfamiliar place who present a perfectly placid demeanor) just as you are w/physical illness (diabetes, heart disease, high PSA level).

You seem to think ALL people w/mental illness have substandard IQs, are violent, & have a stockpile of weapons. Your example isn't only ignorant, it's offensive. There's no such thing as your local mental hospital. There's a locked unit in a general hospital for 72 hour holds for schizophrenics off their meds or addicts violently acting out when the jail is full. Alzheimer's patients often end up in a psych unit if they're lost or violent. If people are sick enough to be hospitalized they're incapable of coming up w/a plan never mind carrying it out. And I mean a plan to make a telephone call to the intended person not to escape, obtain a weapon & murder someone on your suggestion. They know who involuntarily committed them - a judge. Because they're patients in a psych unit, they legally lack capacity to make decisions. They would most likely be found legally incompetent to stand trial. So, there's no question of responsibility. Think it through, man.

People who are drunk or high present a much more immediate danger than an anorexic teenager.



[Edited on 8/6/2019 by cyclone88]


Bhawk - 8/6/2019 at 05:26 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
we have a president who spews venom and hatred toward Mexicans, calls them invaders, criminals, disease carriers, etc. we were bound to have a massacre of them.


What a bunch of crap. ANYONE who hears "venom" from any source has the power to walk away. If you are affected enough to feel a "call to action" that is on you and NO ONE ELSE
Wrong. The scumbag in chief is provoking white nationalists, neo nazi punks and emboldens them with his big mouth.


Is he provoking you?...Or are we going to give you the benefit of the doubt and applaud your ability to make your own decisions? Somewhere down the line these idiots are making a choice, that is on them, NO ONE ELSE.


Vince, as far as I can tell, we've been conversing and arguing at this website for about 13 years now.

Over those years, you've made your views on illegal immigration and the laws passed around the matter quite clear during that time.

So, if I may ask a few questions, and yes, I have a point.

1. Do you believe that the United States of America is currently being invaded by Hispanic immigrants, both legal and illegal?
2. In the case of illegals, do you believe that the problem should be dealt with using deadly force?
3. Do you believe that the Democratic party and American liberals support allowing anyone and everyone into the country in order to create a new voting bloc and take jobs and a multitude of other things away from American citizens?
4. Do you believe that the country is being changed and/or lost because of immigration, legal or illegal?
5. Do you support the Second Amendment and a citizen's right to defend themselves or their country when the time comes?

I don't think you're mentally ill. I probably already know the answers to these questions. Even if you were to tell me that you believe that the country is being invaded and you are willing to do anything and everything to defend it, I still wouldn't think you were mentally ill. What I would think is that you were devoted to a cause defined by a set of beliefs and you are prepared to defend them, just as millions of others have felt throughout the course of human history. Wars have been fought over a great many things, up to and including inflammatory rhetoric. Take the American Civil War...certainly no shortage of rhetoric or inflammation leading up and during that one. Was everyone acting individually, of their own accord, all mentally ill?

The point is...El Paso Shooter feels perfectly justified, as he was acting in defense of his country, therefore, that's his rationalization and justification for his actions. Kinda like Timothy McVeigh.

Both of them mentally ill? To be honest, I'm not so sure. In a way, that's even more terrifying. What is different between the two is that the President's rhetoric and messages is clearly found in a manifesto. Is the President directly responsible? No. Is the President culpable? Hells to the yeah.


adhill58 - 8/7/2019 at 02:39 AM

quote:
quote:

Right, but if they are so mentally ill, are they really capable of making real choices? Should anyone take that into consideration when making inflammatory statements knowing that these same severely mentally ill people probably possess a bunch of guns?

Suppose I went to a mental hospital where people are involuntarily committed and told the patients that the people responsible for their confinement lived on the east side of town. Then one of them escapes and kills somebody on the east side of town. Is there more than one person to blame in that situation?

I just think that asking the mentally ill to take responsibility and make better decisions can't be the ONLY solution.


Are you genuinely interested in mental health or are you just mocking people w/mental illness in this thread knowing that not one mass shooter had a mental illness?

You're probably surrounded by people w/a mental illness - OCD (compulsively checking their phone), bipolar disorder (overspending, overeating, over exercising), clinical depression (above average function when on medication), or anxiety disorder (fear of flying, meeting new people, or being in unfamiliar place who present a perfectly placid demeanor) just as you are w/physical illness (diabetes, heart disease, high PSA level).

You seem to think ALL people w/mental illness have substandard IQs, are violent, & have a stockpile of weapons. Your example isn't only ignorant, it's offensive. There's no such thing as your local mental hospital. There's a locked unit in a general hospital for 72 hour holds for schizophrenics off their meds or addicts violently acting out when the jail is full. Alzheimer's patients often end up in a psych unit if they're lost or violent. If people are sick enough to be hospitalized they're incapable of coming up w/a plan never mind carrying it out. And I mean a plan to make a telephone call to the intended person not to escape, obtain a weapon & murder someone on your suggestion. They know who involuntarily committed them - a judge. Because they're patients in a psych unit, they legally lack capacity to make decisions. They would most likely be found legally incompetent to stand trial. So, there's no question of responsibility. Think it through, man.

People who are drunk or high present a much more immediate danger than an anorexic teenager.



[Edited on 8/6/2019 by cyclone88]


I was actually just trying to make a point in the very oversimplified discussion that was taking place.

I am absolutely not mocking people with mental illness. I am right there with you in agreeing that probably a majority of people have at least one form of mental illness, it may be minor or life-changing. My dad is in a nursing home for the last 16 moths due to Parkinsons-related issues including dementia. He is not going out and buying a gun anytime soon.

I am mocking the the lack of any logic or action in the same old Republican talking points that get dragged out after every new mass shooting. Republicans have no actual interest in treating mental health issues in this country. These mass shooters are not "mentally ill" like my aunt with anxiety, and they should be called what they actually are: psychopaths and terrorists.


There is no definition to what Republicans call "mentally ill" until after the person has committed a terrible crime.

There is no Republican plan for funding the treatment of mental health issues, THAT THEY CLAIM, might help stop these events.

In fact Republicans have always sided with health insurance companies that have always resisted providing mental health coverage. It has really only been widely covered by private insurers since Obamacare took effect.

The largest administrators of mental health services in the country are Medicare and Medicaid, which are not exactly where Republicans are happy to see our tax dollars end up, and the jail system.

Most mass shooters buy their guns legally and are not flagged as a mental health threat at the time, so I don't know what they are suggesting that would change that situation.

Anything that interferes with a single gun sale is dead-on-arrival for most Republican legislators because they are terrified about their NRA report card slipping.

The Republican Party and the NRA (which are the same thing) have been peddling this crap, at the expense of millions of people with mental illness, for decades at this point. Yet they have not explained what any such solution might entail nor have they attempted to enact any such solutions. It is just a way to eat up oxygen until the press coverage goes down and they can get back to making it easier for gun companies to sell guns.

For Republicans, apparently no number of victims is enough to trip up the business model of those who profit form flooding our country with dangerous weapons. Otherwise they would have done literally anything except what they have done for the last twenty years.


cyclone88 - 8/7/2019 at 03:14 AM

quote:
I was actually just trying to make a point in the very oversimplified discussion that was taking place.

I am absolutely not mocking people with mental illness. I am right there with you in agreeing that probably a majority of people have at least one form of mental illness, it may be minor or life-changing. My dad is in a nursing home for the last 16 moths due to Parkinsons-related issues including dementia. He is not going out and buying a gun anytime soon.

I am mocking the the lack of any logic or action in the same old Republican talking points that get dragged out after every new mass shooting. Republicans have no actual interest in treating mental health issues in this country. These mass shooters are not "mentally ill" like my aunt with anxiety, and they should be called what they actually are: psychopaths and terrorists.

There is no definition to what Republicans call "mentally ill" until after the person has committed a terrible crime.

There is no Republican plan for funding the treatment of mental health issues, THAT THEY CLAIM, might help stop these events.


Glad you cleared that up. In other words, we agree that mental illness as accurately described by the medical profession has nothing to do with mass shootings. It's a misnomer that's trotted out when the appropriate words are terrorist & sociopath to distract from the real issue of the availability of weapons (the exception being Charlottesville when the weapon was a car).

IMO it's not a partisan issue. There are plenty of people on the other side of the aisle who haven't figured out that terrorism isn't a mental illness that can be treated.

I've always wondered exactly how a mental status exam would be administered to a potential gun purchaser by a gun store clerk whose sole interest is making a sale. That is definitely a scenario worthy of mockery.



BIGV - 8/7/2019 at 03:32 AM

quote:
I've always wondered exactly how a mental status exam would be administered to a potential gun purchaser by a gun store clerk whose sole interest is making a sale.


It is not the purchase that brings the subject of mental illness into the discussion, it is what happens after someone who is ill does with the weapon after acquiring it.


pops42 - 8/7/2019 at 03:51 AM

quote:
quote:
I've always wondered exactly how a mental status exam would be administered to a potential gun purchaser by a gun store clerk whose sole interest is making a sale.


It is not the purchase that brings the subject of mental illness into the discussion, it is what happens after someone who is ill does with the weapon after acquiring it.
Dont you think someone who is mentally ill, unstable, a white supremacist arms collector, should be flagged and banned from ever owning weapons?. If you don't think this is going to be a regular occurrence, guess again. Buy some stock in one of the company's that makes bulletproof back packs for little children, sales are up over 200 percent, what a **** ing world.

[Edited on 8/7/2019 by pops42]


adhill58 - 8/7/2019 at 03:54 AM

quote:
quote:
I've always wondered exactly how a mental status exam would be administered to a potential gun purchaser by a gun store clerk whose sole interest is making a sale.


It is not the purchase that brings the subject of mental illness into the discussion, it is what happens after someone who is ill does with the weapon after acquiring it.


Again... Please tell me what the proposed mental health solutions are. Or, is it just noting that the mass shooter was not behaving like a responsible member of society? We are all capable of hindsight. Punishing the shooters, while doing nothing else, hasn't really slowed this thing down a lot.

That is why we shouldn't be handing guns out like candy in this country and, yeah, I am also talking about handguns and the problems with Chicago, too. The Governor of Texas put out a tweet a little while ago lamenting that Texas was the #2 ranked state in gun sales. He said in the tweet, "Come on, Texas!"

That is just stupid and dangerous. Last weekend was the proof, yet I bet he doesn't even feel like a jackass.


BIGV - 8/7/2019 at 04:10 AM

quote:
Or, is it just noting that the mass shooter was not behaving like a responsible member of society?


I think for me and the way I apply logic this is it, I can't understand why anyone in their "right" mind would set out with the intention of killing large groups of people because of personal issues....I apply the same "logic" to the thinking that more laws will fix this, because, well they will not. The mentality that drives this behavior is the root cause and it may take a while for a solution that suits all to be found.....


Bhawk - 8/7/2019 at 12:33 PM

quote:
quote:
Or, is it just noting that the mass shooter was not behaving like a responsible member of society?


I think for me and the way I apply logic this is it, I can't understand why anyone in their "right" mind would set out with the intention of killing large groups of people because of personal issues....I apply the same "logic" to the thinking that more laws will fix this, because, well they will not. The mentality that drives this behavior is the root cause and it may take a while for a solution that suits all to be found.....


Are you seriously going to ignore the complete context of the El Paso shooting and the motivations behind it?

It's completely acceptable to demonize, scapegoat, fundraise, rally and frame a subset of human beings as invading and infesting vermin as long as you don't kill them? Is that about right?


BIGV - 8/7/2019 at 12:56 PM

quote:
Are you seriously going to ignore the complete context of the El Paso shooting and the motivations behind it?


"Motivations" I believe in free will and whatever "Motivated" this moron to action is on him, no on else.

quote:
It's completely acceptable to demonize, scapegoat, fundraise, rally and frame a subset of human beings as invading and infesting vermin as long as you don't kill them? Is that about right?


"Acceptable"? That's up to you. You can exercise your version of "acceptable" at the Polls, just like everybody else.


Skydog32103 - 8/7/2019 at 01:47 PM

quote:
"Acceptable"? That's up to you. You can exercise your version of "acceptable" at the Polls, just like everybody else.


No sh*t. In other words, you find it acceptable.


BIGV - 8/7/2019 at 01:56 PM

quote:
quote:
"Acceptable"? That's up to you. You can exercise your version of "acceptable" at the Polls, just like everybody else.


No sh*t. In other words, you find it acceptable.


What difference does it make in your day what I believe? Since I have stated no opinion on this thought, I can only guess that my exhibited behavior is in your belief "antagonistic" simply because I want none of the Kool-Aid you are selling. Is it that important to you that people agree with your views?

Evidently it is.


Bhawk - 8/7/2019 at 08:33 PM

quote:
quote:
Are you seriously going to ignore the complete context of the El Paso shooting and the motivations behind it?


"Motivations" I believe in free will and whatever "Motivated" this moron to action is on him, no on else.

quote:
It's completely acceptable to demonize, scapegoat, fundraise, rally and frame a subset of human beings as invading and infesting vermin as long as you don't kill them? Is that about right?


"Acceptable"? That's up to you. You can exercise your version of "acceptable" at the Polls, just like everybody else.


Yeah, you're good with it. I never expected you to just come out and say it, but you do you.


Jerry - 8/8/2019 at 01:36 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
we have a president who spews venom and hatred toward Mexicans, calls them invaders, criminals, disease carriers, etc. we were bound to have a massacre of them.


What a bunch of crap. ANYONE who hears "venom" from any source has the power to walk away. If you are affected enough to feel a "call to action" that is on you and NO ONE ELSE
Wrong. The scumbag in chief is provoking white nationalists, neo nazi punks and emboldens them with his big mouth.


So Pops, which of Trump's orations have caused you to act that way?


pops42 - 8/8/2019 at 05:05 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
we have a president who spews venom and hatred toward Mexicans, calls them invaders, criminals, disease carriers, etc. we were bound to have a massacre of them.


What a bunch of crap. ANYONE who hears "venom" from any source has the power to walk away. If you are affected enough to feel a "call to action" that is on you and NO ONE ELSE
Wrong. The scumbag in chief is provoking white nationalists, neo nazi punks and emboldens them with his big mouth.


So Pops, which of Trump's orations have caused you to act that way?
lm recommending you to be red-flagged and have your weapons confiscated due to mental issues.


Sang - 8/8/2019 at 04:58 PM

This is from the Chicago Tribune today, a very conservative/republican paper.....

Editorial: President Trump’s failure to heal and unify the nation

When the president of the United States speaks, Americans listen. That’s especially true in moments of crisis when strength and succor are required. Think: Franklin Delano Roosevelt during the Depression (“The only thing we have to fear is fear itself”). Or Ronald Reagan after the Challenger disaster (They " 'slipped the surly bonds of earth’ to ‘touch the face of God’ ”).

Contrast those stirring examples with the mean-spirited leadership style of President Donald Trump, whose record of public statements is pocked with coarse insults, disparaging rhetoric and bizarre equivocations. Mexican migrants, he said as a candidate, are “bringing crime. They’re rapists.” About Central Americans: “We cannot allow all of these people to invade our country.” And after a neo-Nazi march in Charlottesville, Virginia, led to rioting, Trump failed to forcefully denounce white supremacy, claiming he saw “hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides.”

You likely recognize those quotations because the presidential bully pulpit reverberates, whether the sentiment is healing or toxic. A smattering of Trump’s name-calling vocabulary: Sad joke, loser, crazed lunatics, extraordinarily low IQ person, complete and total fraud. ... On he rants, especially via Twitter and at political events, unloading his negative energy at perceived enemies and anyone else against whom he thinks he can score points by vilifying. Last month he told four congressional Democrats, all women of color, to “go back” to their homelands. These are not presidential words to be carved in marble.

Then came violence in the border city of El Paso, Texas, where a gunman killed 22 people and injured dozens. Authorities believe the suspect posted a hate-filled, anti-immigrant screed on the internet before opening fire. El Paso had been in the news because it’s the location of a federal immigration facility housing Central American migrants seeking asylum — the very kind of people Trump demonized as an invading force.

The president is not directly to blame for the shooting in El Paso. Perpetrators of violence are responsible for their actions. But two things are true about the impact of Trump’s bullying and belittling: He is doing damage to the culture of civility and tolerance in America by promoting nastiness as his personal political brand. And he’s failing in the traditional presidential role of providing moral leadership to the country.

Trump spoke Monday from the White House about El Paso, and condemned racism, bigotry and white supremacy. On Wednesday he visited hospitals in El Paso and Dayton, Ohio, site of a second mass shooting. But he doesn’t have the credibility to meaningfully contribute to the healing that’s necessary. That’s because what he reads from a teleprompter or says to family members of victims is contradicted by his crazed, off-the-cuff language.

All the words of a leader matter. They can provide comfort and wisdom amid uncertainty, or spread mistrust and hate. Trump’s divisive rhetoric generates electricity among supporters at partisan events where the theme is: Vanquish political foes. It also spreads toxins. It’s beneath the dignity of high office. As the insults mount, Trump contributes to a national climate of intolerance. Because of him, the body politic is debased.

And as a result, when a terrible event occurs and Americans need inspirational words to guide them, the president is incapable of delivering an effective message of unity. His track record gets in the way. His voice rings hollow.

This is its own small national tragedy.

Editorials reflect the opinion of the Editorial Board, as determined by the members of the board, the editorial page editor and the publisher.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/editorials/ct-editorial-trump-el-pas o-tolerance-language-20190807-phcfgkpq2jfp3mzyiisuy2kbxm-story.html


BIGV - 8/8/2019 at 06:03 PM

quote:
The president is not directly to blame for the shooting in El Paso.


quote:
Perpetrators of violence are responsible for their actions.


quote:
But two things are true about the impact of Trump’s bullying and belittling: He is doing damage to the culture of civility and tolerance in America by promoting nastiness as his personal political brand.


"But....."


Sang - 8/8/2019 at 06:06 PM

I was going to predict what you would cherry pick from that article.... I was right.......


BIGV - 8/8/2019 at 06:12 PM

quote:
I was going to predict what you would cherry pick from that article.... I was right.......


Predict away. You can't have it both ways and the word "But" equates just that.

Either it is or it is not.


Sang - 8/8/2019 at 07:59 PM

I'll let the Tribune know.....


pops42 - 8/8/2019 at 09:53 PM

The fact is: no president of this country should speak hate speak against hispanics, African Americans, tweet about it etc. he is a piece of **** , who is unfit for office. Also he bears part of the blame for what happened in Charlottesville and El Paso.


jszfunk - 8/10/2019 at 06:37 AM




Bombs serve a purpose in war just like military-style firearms, but they have no reason to be in the hands of civilians.

[Edited on 8/5/2019 by adhill58]


Yeah....one purpose of military style firearms is to kill. Why available to the public is baffiling to me.


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