Thread: Christians and Obamacare

BoytonBrother - 12/6/2018 at 01:12 PM

Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? Iím hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. Itís what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldnít a Christian be happy about it?


tcatanesi - 12/6/2018 at 09:42 PM

I'm an atheist who supports Obamacare.

Does that count?


crazyjoe - 12/6/2018 at 10:25 PM

quote:
I'm an atheist who supports Obamacare.

Does that count?


It does to me...........Peace.........joe


BIGV - 12/6/2018 at 10:50 PM

Not even remotely "religious" count me among those who think Churches should be Taxed.

That being said, Helping your fellow man is a damn good thing. I just don't think it's up to the Government to decide that you should so. If you want to help those in need, write a check and send it off to what ever charitable organization you deem worthy.

Now to address the argument from the left that not everyone will do this, therefore Gov't needs to step in....

No.


MartinD28 - 12/6/2018 at 10:55 PM

quote:
Not even remotely "religious" count me among those who think Churches should be Taxed.

That being said, Helping your fellow man is a damn good thing. I just don't think it's up to the Government to decide that you should so. If you want to help those in need, write a check and send it off to what ever charitable organization you deem worthy.

Now to address the argument from the left that not everyone will do this, therefore Gov't needs to step in....

No.


Yet government decides on our behalf to subsidize all kinds of private companies for business expansion and in bailouts when businesses fall on hard times / are in need of assistance. The 2nd part of that could be seen as charity.


BIGV - 12/6/2018 at 11:02 PM

quote:
quote:
Not even remotely "religious" count me among those who think Churches should be Taxed.

That being said, Helping your fellow man is a damn good thing. I just don't think it's up to the Government to decide that you should so. If you want to help those in need, write a check and send it off to what ever charitable organization you deem worthy.

Now to address the argument from the left that not everyone will do this, therefore Gov't needs to step in....

No.


Yet government decides on our behalf to subsidize all kinds of private companies for business expansion and in bailouts when businesses fall on hard times / are in need of assistance. The 2nd part of that could be seen as charity.


No! to this as well

Merry Christmas!


Billastro - 12/7/2018 at 02:04 AM

quote:
Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? Iím hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. Itís what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldnít a Christian be happy about it?
I'm a Christian who opposes Obamacare. Jesus made it clear that we were to help each other as individuals; He never said that the government should be involved in this.

As far as the government taxing churches is concerned, I'm opposed to this because it could easily give the gov't far too much influence over churches and other religious organizations. Religion must be free and uncontrolled. I infer this from the First Amendment. Once the gov't can interfere with church finances, etc., it becomes too easy to develop favorites, eventually leading to theocracies.


lukester420 - 12/7/2018 at 02:44 AM

quote:
quote:
Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? Iím hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. Itís what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldnít a Christian be happy about it?
I'm a Christian who opposes Obamacare. Jesus made it clear that we were to help each other as individuals; He never said that the government should be involved in this.

As far as the government taxing churches is concerned, I'm opposed to this because it could easily give the gov't far too much influence over churches and other religious organizations. Religion must be free and uncontrolled. I infer this from the First Amendment. Once the gov't can interfere with church finances, etc., it becomes too easy to develop favorites, eventually leading to theocracies.


Fair enough, but is the church not guilty of overstepping the first amendment by constantly influencing the govt. to legislate morality?


JimSheridan - 12/7/2018 at 02:46 AM

The government pays for the education of those who can't pay for their own. School lunches for the poor get paid for. Expensive special ed programs get paid for. Are good Christians against the government doing that, as well?


BrerRabbit - 12/7/2018 at 02:53 AM

Am against taxing religious establishments , but am for an accounting of every penny. Rolls Royces, Swiss ski vacations, Vegas whores, tax exemption revoked right now. This would keep the heat off smaller honest outfits who would be killed by taxation, who do a lot of good in their communities and put the screws to the organized crime religious mafias.

[Edited on 12/7/2018 by BrerRabbit]


BIGV - 12/7/2018 at 03:02 AM

quote:
The government pays for the education of those who can't pay for their own. School lunches for the poor get paid for. Expensive special ed programs get paid for. Are good Christians against the government doing that, as well?


Where do you draw the line?....Maybe the Gov't could/should pay for everything.


BrerRabbit - 12/7/2018 at 03:06 AM

quote:
Where do you draw the line?


You'll know where the line is when you're one toke over it, sweet Jesus.


nebish - 12/7/2018 at 05:58 AM

quote:
Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? Iím hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. Itís what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldnít a Christian be happy about it?


I'm not sure if I'm Christian or not, I'm religiously confused. I thought the primary objection religious people had with Obamacare was the whole birth control, abortion thing?

I don't know.

There are members of my family that are very active in charitable giving and volunteering with nonprofits. I've helped. When it comes down to it, people give their time and money to causes, organizations and people they believe in or feel connected to. What anyone does contributing their personal money and time is really different than what the government does with it. I mean, nobody I know ever thinks that they are making a difference via their taxes or some other government program that we are funding. There is no satisfaction or pride in the fact that our tax dollars might go somewhere to somebody who needs it. Yeah, some of the money the federal government gets goes back to people that need it most, but where is the control, where is the oversight, how much is lost along the way? And ultimately there is just no connection to the people who are receiving the assistance.

For people who really want to make a positive impact don't just rely upon and take for granted that the federal government is going to do it for you. There are so so many generous people who make a difference every day in both simple and extraordinary ways, I've seen it. Do what you think is right for yourself and the people around you and the community you live in. Lots of individuals and groups making a difference locally you can find. Don't trust far away groups to do the right thing with your money or your intentions, see it through yourself and love thy neighbor.

[Edited on 12/7/2018 by nebish]


BoytonBrother - 12/7/2018 at 12:37 PM

quote:
I'm a Christian who opposes Obamacare. Jesus made it clear that we were to help each other as individuals; He never said that the government should be involved in this.


Right, but donít you think Jesus would support a government to help its people with regards to healing those who are unfortunate? He may not have specifically referenced ďgovernmentĒ, but if we had to guess which way heíd vote on it........


Billastro - 12/7/2018 at 03:11 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? Iím hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. Itís what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldnít a Christian be happy about it?
I'm a Christian who opposes Obamacare. Jesus made it clear that we were to help each other as individuals; He never said that the government should be involved in this.

As far as the government taxing churches is concerned, I'm opposed to this because it could easily give the gov't far too much influence over churches and other religious organizations. Religion must be free and uncontrolled. I infer this from the First Amendment. Once the gov't can interfere with church finances, etc., it becomes too easy to develop favorites, eventually leading to theocracies.


Fair enough, but is the church not guilty of overstepping the first amendment by constantly influencing the govt. to legislate morality?
I don't think so. All laws legislate morality. I don't know whether any particular church or denomination acts as a unified whole. As individuals we have the right to influence government.


Billastro - 12/7/2018 at 03:12 PM

quote:
The government pays for the education of those who can't pay for their own. School lunches for the poor get paid for. Expensive special ed programs get paid for. Are good Christians against the government doing that, as well?
I don't think the primary purpose of government (at least at the federal level) is to provide these services. There should be safeguards for catastrophes, but I think these programs should be left to the states or the parents.


Billastro - 12/7/2018 at 03:17 PM

quote:
quote:
Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? Iím hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. Itís what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldnít a Christian be happy about it?


I'm not sure if I'm Christian or not, I'm religiously confused. I thought the primary objection religious people had with Obamacare was the whole birth control, abortion thing?

I don't know.

There are members of my family that are very active in charitable giving and volunteering with nonprofits. I've helped. When it comes down to it, people give their time and money to causes, organizations and people they believe in or feel connected to. What anyone does contributing their personal money and time is really different than what the government does with it. I mean, nobody I know ever thinks that they are making a difference via their taxes or some other government program that we are funding. There is no satisfaction or pride in the fact that our tax dollars might go somewhere to somebody who needs it. Yeah, some of the money the federal government gets goes back to people that need it most, but where is the control, where is the oversight, how much is lost along the way? And ultimately there is just no connection to the people who are receiving the assistance.

For people who really want to make a positive impact don't just rely upon and take for granted that the federal government is going to do it for you. There are so so many generous people who make a difference every day in both simple and extraordinary ways, I've seen it. Do what you think is right for yourself and the people around you and the community you live in. Lots of individuals and groups making a difference locally you can find. Don't trust far away groups to do the right thing with your money or your intentions, see it through yourself and love thy neighbor.

[Edited on 12/7/2018 by nebish]
The activities you mention are Christlike. Whether you're a Christian is between you and God, but consider that "being a Christian" means committing your life to following Christ, acknowledging Him as the one and only Son of God, and believing that He rose from the dead. He had only two commands: "And He answered, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)


Billastro - 12/7/2018 at 03:33 PM

quote:
Am against taxing religious establishments , but am for an accounting of every penny. Rolls Royces, Swiss ski vacations, Vegas whores, tax exemption revoked right now. This would keep the heat off smaller honest outfits who would be killed by taxation, who do a lot of good in their communities and put the screws to the organized crime religious mafias.

[Edited on 12/7/2018 by BrerRabbit]
Amen!


BoytonBrother - 12/7/2018 at 03:54 PM

quote:
He had only two commands: "And He answered, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)


The second one is most interesting. ďLove your neighbor as yourselfĒ. Very subjective in nature, and I imagine we all have our own opinions about what it means to love thy neighbor. But forget what WE think......would Jesus support tax dollars to provide healthcare to those less fortunate? I just donít see him objecting for any reason, do you?


BIGV - 12/7/2018 at 04:07 PM

quote:
would Jesus support tax dollars to provide healthcare to those less fortunate? I just donít see him objecting for any reason, do you?


Yes, I do, because tax dollars make it mandatory. Is not Jesus about giving because you want to?


BIGV - 12/7/2018 at 04:10 PM

quote:
I don't think the primary purpose of government (at least at the federal level) is to provide these services.


Boom


Billastro - 12/7/2018 at 04:34 PM

quote:
quote:
He had only two commands: "And He answered, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.'" (Luke 10:27)


The second one is most interesting. ďLove your neighbor as yourselfĒ. Very subjective in nature, and I imagine we all have our own opinions about what it means to love thy neighbor. But forget what WE think......would Jesus support tax dollars to provide healthcare to those less fortunate? I just donít see him objecting for any reason, do you?
In the Parable of the Good Samaritan He made this unarguably clear.

The Samaritans and the Jews despised each other. After the Jew had been beaten and left for dead, a priest and a levite (a type of priest) passed him rather than helping him. Only a Samaritan, an enemy, took care of him. He even took him to an inn, paid for his time there, and offered to cover any further expenses.

There's more. In the culture of the time, there was a custom called "blood vengeance", if I remember right. The idea was that if someone kills my brother, I have the moral responsibility to take vengeance on him. If I can't find him, a member of his family will do.

The Samaritan risked this kind of vengeance by getting involved. I don't understand the psychology or history of this, but it was a real concern in the situation, and Jesus' audience knew this. Essentially He wasn't just saying to love one's neighbor (or enemy) He was saying to do so regardless of the risks.


BoytonBrother - 12/7/2018 at 05:07 PM

quote:
Essentially He wasn't just saying to love one's neighbor (or enemy) He was saying to do so regardless of the risks


If I were a betting man, Iíd bet that someone with this belief system would welcome Obamacare with open arms. Arguing that Jesus would oppose Obamacare seems impossible.


Billastro - 12/7/2018 at 05:20 PM

quote:
quote:
Essentially He wasn't just saying to love one's neighbor (or enemy) He was saying to do so regardless of the risks


If I were a betting man, Iíd bet that someone with this belief system would welcome Obamacare with open arms. Arguing that Jesus would oppose Obamacare seems impossible.
I don't agree. Voluntary assistance matches His statements, but forced government assistance doesn't.


Bhawk - 12/7/2018 at 05:33 PM

Sure would be cool if the topic of insurance was this cut and dried.


BoytonBrother - 12/7/2018 at 05:56 PM

quote:
I don't agree. Voluntary assistance matches His statements, but forced government assistance doesn't.


Thatís one way to interpret it I guess. Another way to interpret it, is that we should help thy neighbor, even with the risks associated with it.


BIGV - 12/7/2018 at 06:01 PM

quote:
Another way to interpret it, is that we should help thy neighbor


Who is stopping you?


BoytonBrother - 12/7/2018 at 07:17 PM

quote:
Who is stopping you?


This is another straw argument, as the thread is about whether Jesus would want a government to heal those who are less fortunate. Billastro thinks Jesus would oppose a government healing the less fortunate, but I think he would probably be ok with it. I doubt Jesus would put politics over that.


OriginalGoober - 12/7/2018 at 11:48 PM

quote:
Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? Iím hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. Itís what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldnít a Christian be happy about it?


Obamacare is the apple, todays democratic party is Eve and socialism is the snake.


DOVETAIL - 12/8/2018 at 12:44 AM

https://youtu.be/dKazZR3ZT9k


BrerRabbit - 12/8/2018 at 02:43 AM

quote:
Obamacare is the apple, todays democratic party is Eve and socialism is the snake.


Who's Adam?


WaitinForRain - 12/8/2018 at 02:56 AM

I work in healthcare.

Let's get this straight:
Christians don't think they should have to pay for healthcare?

Did you want it free?

After all no other business is required to provide services free
to those who can't pay.

Hey if you have no insurance and will handle it all with prayer,
go ahead.


nebish - 12/8/2018 at 05:48 AM

Did Jesus believe in forcing people to give to another man? Would he support those that can't by taking from those who can? I'm not a Jesus guy, thinking back to my youth at church it seems to me he would certainly encourage it, preaching and leading by example, but I'm not sure he would force those against their will to do what he sees as right. Then I guess judgement day would reflect their actions accordingly.

It is one thing when you or I or anyone decides to reach out and help personally or get involved with a group that helps those in need. There is a want-to, a genuine caring aspect of helping people. Then I think it is another thing when a group or somebody tells someone they must help, must donate, they must contribute to make someone else's life better. This can create some resentment and suspicion about the process.

If Jesus were to teach me the right thing to do is to help others and ask me to give I might be inclined to do so. If Jesus told me I must help others and reached in my pocket without consent I would become defensive and reluctant.


WaitinForRain - 12/8/2018 at 09:23 AM

WWJD is fine my question still stands:

Do you expect a hospital to treat you for free bc you
don't want to pay your share, or are you content
not to beg for services you can't afford?

It's legal to kill your child with prayer in many states, rather than seek
available medical care.

They don't call it murder they call it 'religious exemption'

So if you don't want insurance, and you can't afford to pay your way,
you agree to go without?






BoytonBrother - 12/8/2018 at 12:43 PM

quote:
Do you expect a hospital to treat you for free bc you
don't want to pay your share


Obamacare isnt free, and they choose it because itís affordable, not because they donít feel like paying for it.

I understand we all have our political positions and thatís fine, but I just donít see a leper coming to Jesus for healing, and hear, ďMy son, I want to heal you right now, but it wouldnít be fair to those who pay for it. Iím sorry. You must go. Good luck.Ē


lukester420 - 12/8/2018 at 02:47 PM

quote:
quote:
Do you expect a hospital to treat you for free bc you
don't want to pay your share


Obamacare isnt free, and they choose it because itís affordable, not because they donít feel like paying for it.

I understand we all have our political positions and thatís fine, but I just donít see a leper coming to Jesus for healing, and hear, ďMy son, I want to heal you right now, but it wouldnít be fair to those who pay for it. Iím sorry. You must go. Good luck.Ē


This is a common misconception many folks have, this idea that people are demanding free healthcare. It was and still is called the Affordable Healthcare Act, referring to it as Obamacare was a good tactic to insure that a certain contingent of politicians and voters would not approve of anything related to Obama.


nebish - 12/8/2018 at 03:18 PM

Correct. ACA plans are not free. Their cost is just subsidized a little or a lot for people in certain income categories and generally these people use more services on these plans than their premiums cover.


BIGV - 12/8/2018 at 03:40 PM

quote:
Their cost is just subsidized a little or a lot for people in certain income categories


Correct and that "subsidy" is covered by the Taxpayer, which means it has nothing whatsoever to do with "Giving". It is money "taken" and therefore has zero to do with the spirit of lending a helping hand to those in need. That definition would fit perfectly if those who wanted to help did so by donating their own, hard earned income.


Bhawk - 12/8/2018 at 04:23 PM

quote:
quote:
Their cost is just subsidized a little or a lot for people in certain income categories


Correct and that "subsidy" is covered by the Taxpayer, which means it has nothing whatsoever to do with "Giving". It is money "taken" and therefore has zero to do with the spirit of lending a helping hand to those in need. That definition would fit perfectly if those who wanted to help did so by donating their own, hard earned income.




That's more of a statement regarding taxation, not healthcare, no?

There's all kinds of things subsidized by public funds, including some rather large free market entities that are presumably supposed to survive and thrive without such assistance.

Personally, I don't look at any fellow human receiving medical care as a theft from me. I've been born into a societal context that requires some sort of collective mentality. We interact with and do business with each other according to rules set by the majority. A red light is just a lightbulb behind colored glass. 99.9% of the time we all follow that simple rule because we have committed to an orderly society in which we depend on each other to make it work.


Isn't that where the heart of the matter is, past the political labels? Doesn't it start at the humanist level?

And yes, indeed...there are all high level concepts. The details of reality do dirty the waters quickly.


nebish - 12/8/2018 at 04:23 PM

A friend of mine is between jobs and was looking into buying health insurance. Unfortunately for him, he let his employer sponsored coverage lapse (didn't pick up COBRA) and now only qualifies for ACA plans during open enrollment. He was working with an insurance agent. If his income is $2000 per month or less he qualifies for a $441 per month premium subsidy. So looking at the pdf attachment he emailed me, the cheapest ACA compliant plan available is an individual Medical Mutual plan with a $7900 deductible, the premium goes from $615.35 to $174.35. Great deal right! He's down on his luck and needs a hand right now, let's help. Someone in this position with a $24,000 annual income gets a $5,292 subsidy for his health insurance. Who is making up the difference in that cost? Rich nation, we can afford to pay $5000 for millions who otherwise can't afford it I guess. Why the hell does that plan cost so much to begin with? $615 with a $7900 deductible is about highway robbery! So much for making the plans affordable. Sure they are affordable for the one getting the subsidy. Not so much for the ones paying the bill.


Bhawk - 12/8/2018 at 04:28 PM

quote:
Why the hell does that plan cost so much to begin with?


The cost charts, matrixes and algorithms. The secret stuff.

This is the only sector of business where cost is so, so well hidden until well after the fact, by all entities involved.

We know that a cup of coffee at Starbucks is $5 because we can read a menu board, but we have no idea what anything is going to cost when our lives are the product.


WaitinForRain - 12/8/2018 at 04:38 PM

Auto insurance is required, does Jesus oppose this?

I think the real argument is a resistance to put funds into
a public coffer. Ok. That leaves out roads, schools and healthcare.
AND the military.

Funny how religious arguments are used to justify the third-worldification
of the US. Healthcare only if charity gives it otherwise nothing? Food too, huh?


Since of you better travel outside the US and see what poverty
and systemic lack of opportunity looks like.



[Edited on 12/8/2018 by WaitinForRain]


nebish - 12/8/2018 at 04:42 PM

I know. It is terrible. I asked how much an overnight sleep study (snoring) was going to cost one time at the sleep doctor and they couldn't believe I would ask. "well it depends on your insurance". I said, "how much will you bill my insurance". Floored, they said "we don't know until we have your insurance". And I said "why would that matter, what would you charge if I was paying without insurance". Confused they said "you don't want your insurance to pay for it". I didn't schedule the sleep study. Screw those people who can't supply a quote for service they are about to provide.

It's like, we get quotes and estimates for every other major purchase or investment or project in our lives and when it comes to something with the doctor nobody cares, just do it, whatever it costs, somebody else will be paying for it anyway...charge away!


BIGV - 12/8/2018 at 05:29 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Their cost is just subsidized a little or a lot for people in certain income categories


Correct and that "subsidy" is covered by the Taxpayer, which means it has nothing whatsoever to do with "Giving". It is money "taken" and therefore has zero to do with the spirit of lending a helping hand to those in need. That definition would fit perfectly if those who wanted to help did so by donating their own, hard earned income.




That's more of a statement regarding taxation, not healthcare, no?

There's all kinds of things subsidized by public funds, including some rather large free market entities that are presumably supposed to survive and thrive without such assistance.

Personally, I don't look at any fellow human receiving medical care as a theft from me. I've been born into a societal context that requires some sort of collective mentality. We interact with and do business with each other according to rules set by the majority. A red light is just a lightbulb behind colored glass. 99.9% of the time we all follow that simple rule because we have committed to an orderly society in which we depend on each other to make it work.


Isn't that where the heart of the matter is, past the political labels? Doesn't it start at the humanist level?

And yes, indeed...there are all high level concepts. The details of reality do dirty the waters quickly.



I would use your post to address the % of hard working Americans who are just scraping by . Meaning after rent/mortgage etc; (including their own Healthcare costs) here you are struggling to maintain the integrity of your work ethic and you have to stand by to watch and listen to others receive subsidies for something you choose to work your A** off for merely to provide for you and yours.

Add to that, I am the first person to offer to buy food for people asking for handouts..."Are you hungry"? I will ask, heading into a store, I will emerge with a bag containing a banana, peanuts and some lunch meats, costing me less than $5, only to find about 50% will look at you like "I don't want this".....But, I chose to help, I offered to help, it made me feel better to help. No one reached into my pocket for whatever reason. It was/is my choice. Is that not in the spirit of the thread title?


gina - 12/8/2018 at 05:58 PM

quote:
quote:
Is there anyone here that considers themselves a Christian, but opposes Obamacare? Iím hoping to understand that. Throughout the Bible, Jesus helps the less fortunate. Itís what Christian children are taught in Vacation Bible School. Yet when Obama proposes ACA, the most devout Christians in the country not only oppose the idea, but hate the man for even suggesting such a horrible idea. Wouldnít a Christian be happy about it?
I'm a Christian who opposes Obamacare. Jesus made it clear that we were to help each other as individuals; He never said that the government should be involved in this.

As far as the government taxing churches is concerned, I'm opposed to this because it could easily give the gov't far too much influence over churches and other religious organizations. Religion must be free and uncontrolled. I infer this from the First Amendment. Once the gov't can interfere with church finances, etc., it becomes too easy to develop favorites, eventually leading to theocracies.



The govt. is already involved in religion, they are helping with building the NEW Roman temple in Jerusalem. Construction begins next year. The announcement comes after the elections in Israel at Netanyahu's request t hold off announcing the Peace Treaty (which includes re-building the Temple) until after the elections which I think are in January. All hell will break loose sometime next year or by 2020.


gina - 12/8/2018 at 06:00 PM

quote:
quote:
Obamacare is the apple, todays democratic party is Eve and socialism is the snake.


Who's Adam?


Adam was a progressive who preferred to live off the grid, but he became involved with a woman who was deceived and then she led Adam astray and the rest is history.


gina - 12/8/2018 at 06:04 PM

quote:
A friend of mine is between jobs and was looking into buying health insurance. Unfortunately for him, he let his employer sponsored coverage lapse (didn't pick up COBRA) and now only qualifies for ACA plans during open enrollment. He was working with an insurance agent. If his income is $2000 per month or less he qualifies for a $441 per month premium subsidy. So looking at the pdf attachment he emailed me, the cheapest ACA compliant plan available is an individual Medical Mutual plan with a $7900 deductible, the premium goes from $615.35 to $174.35. Great deal right! He's down on his luck and needs a hand right now, let's help. Someone in this position with a $24,000 annual income gets a $5,292 subsidy for his health insurance. Who is making up the difference in that cost? Rich nation, we can afford to pay $5000 for millions who otherwise can't afford it I guess. Why the hell does that plan cost so much to begin with? $615 with a $7900 deductible is about highway robbery! So much for making the plans affordable. Sure they are affordable for the one getting the subsidy. Not so much for the ones paying the bill.



I have an idea. Why don't we send home those who come here illegally. Take the money we would have used to give them medical and other benefits and use that to lower the cost regular legal Americans have to pay for health insurance? Oh yeah the greed of the insurance companies and their lobbyists in Washington wouldn't go along with that.


BoytonBrother - 12/8/2018 at 08:19 PM

Half the country who supports Obamacare, don't see it as money being "taken" from their pockets....in a vote of support, we're glad to offer it to those in need. That's why we learned in Sunday School. I guess it's a matter of perspective, and as the thread goes, would Jesus vote yes? I think so. For something like health, it's a given. As for driving and other privliges, that's a whole different thread.

[Edited on 12/8/2018 by BoytonBrother]


BIGV - 12/8/2018 at 10:32 PM

quote:
Half the country who supports Obamacare, don't see it as money being "taken" from their pockets....in a vote of support, we're glad to offer it to those in need.


I hardly think you are speaking for "half the country".....Once again, "We're" is you. You don't mind. Perhaps you might be first in line to "Voluntarily" donate part of Your paycheck, perhaps not.

I think "half the Country" does not support paying for anyone else's Healthcare when they can barely afford their own.


BoytonBrother - 12/9/2018 at 12:01 AM

Just funny that the conservative religious right hates giving extra to provide healthcare for those in need, and the scientific liberals are happy to do it. Speaks volumes to me.


sckeys - 12/9/2018 at 03:26 AM

Evangelicals don't care about the teachings of Jesus.


Sang - 12/9/2018 at 05:13 AM

You would thing most people would want universal healthcare. The costs would be a lot less, especially if people got check-ups and stayed healthy and caught things early. People that don't have healthcare and don't go unless they have to or don't get vaccinations endanger everyone.....


BIGV - 12/9/2018 at 05:15 AM

quote:
You would thing most people would want universal healthcare. The costs would be a lot less,


Ask a Canadian about universal healthcare....

How was your last visit to the DMV?


Sang - 12/9/2018 at 05:29 AM

Another false flag. Most Canadians love their healthcare..... there are other countries that have it too.... ask about them.


Sang - 12/9/2018 at 05:29 AM

Even Trump admin analysis shows it would cost less.......


BIGV - 12/9/2018 at 03:09 PM

quote:
Most Canadians love their healthcare....


Ahhh, No. And they certainly do not care for the Taxes or the wait.


nebish - 12/9/2018 at 05:26 PM

I don't like the system we have. Insurance companies suck. I really don't see any difference in having an insurance company making your health decisions or the government doing it - both are bad options really, but I guess you have to have one unless everyone just pays out of pocket.

I could support a single payer system, just cut the insurance companies completely out of it or they can just sell supplemental policies like they do for Medicare. Medicare for all system would be ok with me...I just want them to fund it properly and think that everyone, everyone, must have some financial stake in the cost of their health care spreading the tax responsibility across everyone who is, has or will use the system. No low income exemptions and no high income exemptions. Everyone pay the same % of earned income and then some fixed or proportional amount for the services they received so there is some appreciation for how much cost they are creating for the system.


Billastro - 12/9/2018 at 09:05 PM

quote:
Evangelicals don't care about the teachings of Jesus.
That's a pretty inflammatory statement. Can you back this up with facts, or is this just an opinion? ("Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one." -- Duane Allman)

Billastro


Sang - 12/9/2018 at 11:01 PM

quote:
quote:
Most Canadians love their healthcare....


Ahhh, No. And they certainly do not care for the Taxes or the wait.



Probably not the same all over Canada. I had 9 Canadians on a tour I took to Eastern Europe. They thought we were the ones who were nuts.... If I call my doctor here I have to wait - I can't get an appointment this afternoon - but I do have the option of going to immediate care.

Our luggage was lost for 4 days - my brother-in-law had to have a doctor visit the hotel and get him 2 prescriptions. The doctor visit was 100 euros, and a month's supply of the drugs were $5 instead of the over $40 he pays here.


2112 - 12/10/2018 at 12:48 AM

quote:
quote:
Most Canadians love their healthcare....


Ahhh, No. And they certainly do not care for the Taxes or the wait.


I have a lot of Canadian friends and relatives (wife's actually), and when discussing the Canadian health care system, although all have some complaints, not a single one would trade theirs for ours.


WaitinForRain - 12/10/2018 at 05:58 PM

The US ranks 40th in the world in healthcare.
About like Cuba.

Single payer makes the most sense economically.

I've never understood Christians who love to profess
their beliefs but PICK and CHOOSE what to follow.

To really live on faith, turn the other cheek, etc etc
is a lot harder than wearing a cross on a
and asking for special exemptions.



BIGV - 12/10/2018 at 07:07 PM

quote:
I've never understood Christians who love to profess
their beliefs but PICK and CHOOSE what to follow.

To really live on faith, turn the other cheek, etc etc
is a lot harder than wearing a cross on a
and asking for special exemptions.


Is the assumption here that because one does not believe in, "The affordable care act" that one can't or does not donate to those less fortunate?


JimSheridan - 12/11/2018 at 01:19 AM

quote:
Evangelicals don't care about the teachings of Jesus.

That's a pretty inflammatory statement. Can you back this up with facts, or is this just an opinion? ("Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one." -- Duane Allman)

Billastro

___________________________________________________________________________ ______

1. Read the New Testament and consider the teachings of Jesus.
2. Read up on Donald Trump.
3. Consider the remarkable support that evangelicals have given Trump.

That's it. It's not very hard to see the contradictions between the ideals espoused in the New Testament versus those pushed by Trump.


BoytonBrother - 12/11/2018 at 07:04 PM

quote:
1. Read the New Testament and consider the teachings of Jesus.
2. Read up on Donald Trump.
3. Consider the remarkable support that evangelicals have given Trump.

That's it. It's not very hard to see the contradictions between the ideals espoused in the New Testament versus those pushed by Trump.


Amen! Well said. As for the so-called Christian Trump supporter, which is the bullsh*t? The admiration of sleaze like Trump, the hatred for healthcare for the unfortunate, or the Christian values they claim to possess? Iíd like to give them the benefit of the doubt that their faith is real, but they act out due to unhappiness.


Billastro - 12/11/2018 at 08:40 PM

quote:
quote:
Evangelicals don't care about the teachings of Jesus.

That's a pretty inflammatory statement. Can you back this up with facts, or is this just an opinion? ("Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one." -- Duane Allman)

Billastro

___________________________________________________________________________ ______

1. Read the New Testament and consider the teachings of Jesus.
2. Read up on Donald Trump.
3. Consider the remarkable support that evangelicals have given Trump.

That's it. It's not very hard to see the contradictions between the ideals espoused in the New Testament versus those pushed by Trump.
Your response is a non sequitur, and has nothing to do with the topic. But Iíll answer your points, in order.

1. I do, and have done so for decades. This is how I know that Jesus came for one purpose alone: to find and rescue the lost. The lost, by His definition, are all who are outside of a relationship with God. His aim was voluntary reconciliation with God for all who would have Him. He clearly had no interest in government involvement. ďJesus answered, ĎMy kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But My kingdom is not from the world.íĒ

2. This has nothing to do with the question. Personally, Donald Trump was my least favorite candidate among all the Republicans. But I voted for him as a vote against Hillary Clinton, and Iím grateful that he permanently ended her political career. Regardless of his beliefs, he has accomplished something I admire: he placed two Conservative justices on the Supreme Court, and I hope he places another one or two.

3. The fact that evangelicals support President Trump doesnít lead to any conclusions that apply here. Iím an evangelical Christian and I found a lot of his past and present unacceptable. But he was far less of a problem for America than Hillary Clinton ever would have been.

Billastro


BIGV - 12/11/2018 at 08:53 PM

quote:
But I voted for him as a vote against Hillary Clinton, and Iím grateful that he permanently ended her political career.


Amen


BoytonBrother - 12/11/2018 at 09:25 PM

quote:
But I voted for him as a vote against Hillary Clinton, and Iím grateful that he permanently ended her political career. Regardless of his beliefs, he has accomplished something I admire: he placed two Conservative justices on the Supreme Court, and I hope he places another one or two.


What a complete load of garbage, lol. On my car ride home today, I heard a talk show host say the exact same thing, verbatim. Amazing how that happens! What a coincidence!


lukester420 - 12/11/2018 at 10:20 PM

quote:
quote:
But I voted for him as a vote against Hillary Clinton, and Iím grateful that he permanently ended her political career. Regardless of his beliefs, he has accomplished something I admire: he placed two Conservative justices on the Supreme Court, and I hope he places another one or two.


What a complete load of garbage, lol. On my car ride home today, I heard a talk show host say the exact same thing, verbatim. Amazing how that happens! What a coincidence!


Yeah who cares if the country goes into a tailspin, anything to stop those evil Clintons.

MAGA


BIGV - 12/11/2018 at 10:23 PM

quote:
Yeah who cares if the country goes into a tailspin, anything to stop those evil Clintons.


The tailspin was prevented when Hillary had to find another source of employment.


MartinD28 - 12/11/2018 at 11:26 PM

quote:
quote:
Yeah who cares if the country goes into a tailspin, anything to stop those evil Clintons.


The tailspin was prevented when Hillary had to find another source of employment.



Given everything that we've seen and learned of Trump, I have a hard time believing that anyone can still believe that Trump could ever be considered the lesser of two evils.


JimSheridan - 12/12/2018 at 07:51 PM

"1. Read the New Testament and consider the teachings of Jesus.
2. Read up on Donald Trump.
3. Consider the remarkable support that evangelicals have given Trump.
That's it. It's not very hard to see the contradictions between the ideals espoused in the New Testament versus those pushed by Trump."

"Your response is a non sequitur, and has nothing to do with the topic."

I can break it down further for you, if you need, and apparently you do. The Evangelical churches have continued to support Trump despite the fact that his values and actions are decidedly the opposite of those of Jesus.

Trump celebrates greed, which Christ criticized.

He endorses violence and revenge, both of which Christ spoke against.

The list goes on, but you are completely misusing the term "non sequitur." A non sequitur would be me saying "Squirrels are delicious!" The poster before had argued that evangelicals do not care about the teachings of Jesus; this was an obvious reference to their continuous and ongoing support for Trump.

That Trump could be seen as the lesser of two evils should not make him immune to criticism; it also should not lead to people ignoring alternatives.


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