Thread: Is Anyone Else Shocked When A Rock Documentary Can't Get The Facts Straight?

robslob - 5/23/2020 at 02:26 PM

I'm sure many here (many who get AXS TV anyway) have watched the Rock Legends series that they've been running for years. They are 1/2 hour documentaries. They have one on ABB.

The other night I was watching the Rock Legends segment on Jimi Hendrix. Really could not believe some of what I heard because there were not one but two factual errors. This guy with the English accent is one of the commentators on all of these docs and as far as I'm concerned he is somewhat of a fool. On the ABB doc, THREE different times he commented, "at that point in time the band's drug use escalated." Yeah, we all know there was drug use going on in ABB, especially in the early days, but this guy made it sound a like that is all they ever did.

Anyway, regarding the Hendrix doc, he comments on Hendrix' first record Are You Experienced. He talks about how groundbreaking it was (true), and what a hodgepodge of styles (true). But then "and it contained Redhouse, a classic blues tune." As anyone knows, Redhouse was not on Are You Experienced. It was included many years later on an expanded version of the record with bonus tracks, but this guy was not talking about that, he was talking about the album's impact when it was released.

Then towards the end he talks about Hendrix' iconic performance at Woodstock. "Mitch Mitchell had other obligations so Jimi and Billy Cox were left to play with a bunch of session musicians." WHAT BS. I have the DVD of Hendrix at Woodstock and without a doubt Mitch Mitchell was the drummer in Gypsy Sun and Rainbows which is the name of the band that Hendrix announced to the crowd at Woodstock. (Oh Yeah, this guy didn't know the name of the band, either. Who else to get it from but Jimi himself?)

It just makes me wonder if I should apply for a job as a host of rock documentaries. Looks like a pretty cush job to me and I think I'd make a much more knowledgeable host than this fool.

[Edited on 5/23/2020 by robslob]


DOVETAIL - 5/23/2020 at 03:19 PM

The original UK tracklisting did include "Red Hous," among other differences. A quick perusal of reliable sites like All Musi Guide, among others, will verify that fact.


blackey - 5/23/2020 at 03:35 PM

No not shocked at all. When you really get into a band or artist you see it all the time.

With Gregg Allman, often he would be called The Rambling Man, or sings his biggest hit Rambling Man. Or the famous songs he wrote such as Midnight Rider, Melissa and Ramblin'Man. All of these I've actually seen in print!!!!!!


PhotoRon286 - 5/23/2020 at 04:38 PM

quote:
No not shocked at all. When you really get into a band or artist you see it all the time.

With Gregg Allman, often he would be called The Rambling Man, or sings his biggest hit Rambling Man. Or the famous songs he wrote such as Midnight Rider, Melissa and Ramblin'Man. All of these I've actually seen in print!!!!!!


At least it wasn't called "Sweet Melissa".


DOVETAIL - 5/23/2020 at 05:09 PM

As far as ABB substance abuse goes, it might be fair to say that, throughout the group's career, beginning withe original lineup, the priorities were music, drugs (including alcohol) and women (the latter two not always in that order). Which may explain why their business affairs (including the archiving of their work), have been more or less in shambles---right up through to today!?


blackey - 5/23/2020 at 06:24 PM

Yep. Anyone notice on the first album...
out in November 1969...on the liner notes it says "Immoral Support" followed by some ladies names? Doesnt tell you who is doing the chant on Black Hearted Woman but has that. Found out later from Butch it is all 6 of them with Berry Oakley laughing at the end.

When I finally saw them do it live there wasn't a chant. Just the two lead guitars doing it.


robslob - 5/23/2020 at 06:29 PM

quote:

The original UK tracklisting did include "Red Hous," among other differences. A quick perusal of reliable sites like All Musi Guide, among others, will verify that fact.


Thanks, did not know that. Doesn't explain "Mitch Mitchell did not play at Woodstock" though.


blackey - 5/23/2020 at 06:37 PM

Yeah the Sweet Melissa man.

I would see on TV and hear on radio commercials for the band in concert after Derek and Warren were the two guitarists and Ramblin Man and Southbound would play from Brothers and Sisters and One Way Out and Melissa from Eat A Peach. And the end and Fade would be Dickey backed by Les Dudek on the big guitar solo at the end of Ramblin' Man.

Casual fans going to hear those songs and musicians were in for a big surprise.

Yeah Charlie Gregg will sing Ramblin Man for the encore. Bet it will be the last song they play.

Why didn't they tell those stations they don't play Ramblin' Man anymore and the guitar player on their best selling album got kicked out of the band years ago??? Don't highlight his playing on Jessica and those songs. They dont play like that now.


DOVETAIL - 5/23/2020 at 07:38 PM

quote:
quote:

The original UK tracklisting did include "Red Hous," among other differences. A quick perusal of reliable sites like All Musi Guide, among others, will verify that fact.


Thanks, did not know that. Doesn't explain "Mitch Mitchell did not play at Woodstock" though.

I would suggest the error on Mitchell is a combination of ignorance and lack of responsibility on the prt of documentary producers.


bob1954 - 5/23/2020 at 09:41 PM

On the other hand, if they had all the facts perfectly accurate what would we have to talk about?


DOVETAIL - 5/23/2020 at 10:11 PM

quote:
On the other hand, if they had all the facts perfectly accurate what would we have to talk about?

Perhaps we would have better-informed, more enlightening dialogue(s) on forums like this one?!


PeachNutt - 5/23/2020 at 10:41 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------
The original UK tracklisting did include "Red House," among other differences. A quick perusal of reliable sites like All Musi Guide, among others, will verify that fact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------
The original UK release (I have it) included Can You See Me, Red House, Remember, all not included on the USA release. Also the tracks are in a different running order.

[Edited on 5/23/2020 by PeachNutt]


PeachNutt - 5/23/2020 at 10:42 PM

and yes, the constant errors in these English productions is both disappointing and annoying.


DOVETAIL - 5/24/2020 at 03:39 AM

Such productions, regardless of source, are usually aimed at the casual fan not experts, self-styled or otherwise.
And I have found that to be the case with even what we might consider reputable sources, I.e., PBS' "American Masters."


BrerRabbit - 5/24/2020 at 06:05 AM

Maybe offtopic, but I notice a lot of what I call "history crunching" the further things are in the past eras start to overlap and get mixed up in the retelling, so a lot of 60s and 70s stuff gets conflated - e.g. flower power VW busses in the mid 70s - music in movies wrongly dated all the time.

Like the whole 70-80 years of Old West gets crunched into a few images.


CanadianMule - 5/24/2020 at 06:17 AM

Red House was on the original.

Mitch is probably a matter of the writer researching and seeing him leave and return and got time lines messed up.

So many stories and myths get written over and over that often myth becomes fact. Much like all those 4+ hour Allman Brothers shows - Not a single one exists and yet people will insist they happened. Even though the band's setlists at the time in no way include enough songs unless every song was a half hour long.

One person will add a line like "Everyone walked out and no one said a word". Bullsh*t. LOL - Couple of thousand people just endure a supposed 14 hour blast of music ending with 6 hours of the ABB - and not a word.

But people who were not there will actually debate it and get upset if that BS is questioned. LOL

Jimmy Page sold his soul to the devil.


masbama - 5/24/2020 at 06:17 AM

And these are artists we know about. Think about the rock docs about artists we see as casual fans. No telling what the truth is.


blackey - 5/24/2020 at 12:36 PM

CanadianMule. In 1970 and 1971 I went as often as I could steal the time and afford to drive that far and never saw a 4 hour show. About 90 minutes as the opener and approximately 3 hours as the closer. Maybe a couple 3 hr 45 minutes if Duane sang Dimples and they played a couple from the first two albums they didn't play much. And those may have been short of 3:45.

20 to 25 minute You Don't Love Me with the sections of jamming that has nothing to do with the song. See At Fillmore East for the most familiar example. Whipping Post straight into Mountain Jam often is when they played non stop for about an hour and that was just Butch and Jaimoe playing non stop for an hour and uptempo pounding too. During the drum solo and Berry Oakley's solo Gregg, Duane, Dickey were out of sight.

I agree with you brother. I doubt they played over 4 hours much less 8.

But when the headliner with a long Dreams, Liz Reed, very long You Dont Love Me and Whipping Post straight into Mountain Jam it was 3 or 3 and a half.

It was June in New York City. The word or buzz with fans back then was The Allman Brothers were put last on orders of Bill Graham and over the protest of the Beach Boys who had faded a bit by 1971 but man did they have a list of hit singles. I wasn't able to go to New York then. I've been to New York City dozens of times but I tried to have a job so it was hard to go that far. Probably after other bands they went on late and it is true the sun was up when they stopped. Dickey has even mentioned he was surprised by the sunlight pouring in when people began using the side exits.


PhotoRon286 - 5/24/2020 at 10:13 PM

quote:
Red House was on the original.

Mitch is probably a matter of the writer researching and seeing him leave and return and got time lines messed up.

So many stories and myths get written over and over that often myth becomes fact. Much like all those 4+ hour Allman Brothers shows - Not a single one exists and yet people will insist they happened. Even though the band's setlists at the time in no way include enough songs unless every song was a half hour long.

One person will add a line like "Everyone walked out and no one said a word". Bullsh*t. LOL - Couple of thousand people just endure a supposed 14 hour blast of music ending with 6 hours of the ABB - and not a word.

But people who were not there will actually debate it and get upset if that BS is questioned. LOL

Jimmy Page sold his soul to the devil.



And the famous Frank Zappa/Alice Cooper "Gross out contest".


CanadianMule - 5/25/2020 at 05:31 AM

quote:
CanadianMule. In 1970 and 1971 I went as often as I could steal the time and afford to drive that far and never saw a 4 hour show. About 90 minutes as the opener and approximately 3 hours as the closer. Maybe a couple 3 hr 45 minutes if Duane sang Dimples and they played a couple from the first two albums they didn't play much. And those may have been short of 3:45.


I have the majority of available traded shows of the original lineup. Many concerts do not even fill one disc so under 74 minutes. The 3 hour shows that you mention - just don't exist. It is a memory and legend. There are only a few that stretch into a 3rd disc.

And the setlists don't vary much at all from show to show. Dimples? LOL - what they played a 60 minute Dimples - Sorry but that was pretty funny.

Those 3 hour shows just didn't happen. Or it just happened that all of those shows are the exact ones that were not taped. C'mon.

Memories are funny things. I watched them play a Mt Jam in Gilford where it seemed to last 2 hours to me. On and On...….lol.

No offence but you were not at 3 hour long ABB shows.


blackey - 5/25/2020 at 11:18 AM

No not Dimples. I think I only saw Dimples twice. Hoochie was very often with Berry Oakley singing. I meant You Dont Love Me with the long jams then straight into Mountain Jam seemed like an hour to me.

But you have all those shows. I have some but not as many as you so I stand corrected.

Guess I was at two kinds of shows. Short show when they didn't headline and long show when they did but they apparently were not THAT far apart in length.


Marley - 5/25/2020 at 09:42 PM

quote:
Those 3 hour shows just didn't happen. Or it just happened that all of those shows are the exact ones that were not taped. C'mon.

This is interesting! Just to riff on it:

The original six played a few hundred shows in 2 1/2 years. How many of them are circulating in full today? Less than 20%? Enough that if there were bunches of very long shows, you'd think one would survive.

For a lot of those 300-or-whatever shows, they were an opening act and weren't playing for one hour, let alone three. If you think about gigs where they would have even had the chance to play that long, you get a much smaller list: free gigs at Piedmont Park, maybe some college shows, select Friday and Saturday night shows at friendly venues when they'd reached headline status. It's a smaller group of gigs. The longest Duane-era show that I can think of off the top of my head is the September '71 Warehouse shows. That's about 2 1/2 hours. It's not impossible to imagine them stretching that to three now and then. But if there were shows that went way longer than that, I think the best guess is that they were on their home turf at Piedmont Park and that they were very loose, half-rehearsal things where they would try stuff they didn't usually play, take a bunch of breaks, and mess around. Did the Dead even play for 4 hours on a regular basis at that time?

As far as the June 26 Fillmore show, Bill Graham tells us how long they played. He introduced them the next night by saying they'd taken the stage at 2:30 or 3 and played until 7. He obviously wasn't timing them with a stopwatch, but if you conservatively assume they played from 3 to 6:30 and took a half-hour set break, that's still three hours, and it's not so hard to imagine that one going longer if they were that into it. But it's not six or eight hours or anywhere close. Graham would've mentioned it, possibly while complaining that he was being fined hundreds of dollars as a result of noise complaints after the cops shut the show down at the five hour mark and that the Allman Brothers were supposed to perform on the 27th but were going to miss the show because they were sleeping it off.

As far as the story about the crowd being silent and everybody just walking out into the morning: I'm going to guess that's a conflation based on the music industry crowd being kind of dead on 27th, which Duane comments on from the stage. But the sunrise part is right. The sun rose in New York at 5:26 a.m. on the morning of June 27, 1971. If the band played anywhere close to 7, or even 6, the sun was up when they finished.


Stephen - 5/25/2020 at 10:28 PM

Bunky Odom, VP of Phil Walden Associates, said in the Nolan biography “I’ve heard them have four & a half hour sets - St Petersburg one time, they did WP for 35 minutes, then the roar of the drums into Mtn Jam - an hour and a half, non stop”

[Edited on 5/25/2020 by Stephen]


Stephen - 5/25/2020 at 10:46 PM

From the same book, Bill Graham’s recollections of the early-morning hours of 6/27/71

“The Brothers went on around 1:30 or 2 - the set ended around 5 - it was a brilliant, brilliant set - the audience didn’t demand more in those days, they respected that the musicians were humans

“They went back onstage, it must have been around 5:30 - they began an improvisational piece, w/the interplay of the guitars & organ - they did pattern structures, playing against each other

“It was heavenly music - it wasn’t hard rock, they just played these melodic blues riffs...whatever else

“They walked off the stage - the kids in the audience applauded - it was 5 after 7”


DOVETAIL - 5/26/2020 at 12:10 AM

quote:
quote:
Those 3 hour shows just didn't happen. Or it just happened that all of those shows are the exact ones that were not taped. C'mon.

This is interesting! Just to riff on it:

The original six played a few hundred shows in 2 1/2 years. How many of them are circulating in full today? Less than 20%? Enough that if there were bunches of very long shows, you'd think one would survive.

For a lot of those 300-or-whatever shows, they were an opening act and weren't playing for one hour, let alone three. If you think about gigs where they would have even had the chance to play that long, you get a much smaller list: free gigs at Piedmont Park, maybe some college shows, select Friday and Saturday night shows at friendly venues when they'd reached headline status. It's a smaller group of gigs. The longest Duane-era show that I can think of off the top of my head is the September '71 Warehouse shows. That's about 2 1/2 hours. It's not impossible to imagine them stretching that to three now and then. But if there were shows that went way longer than that, I think the best guess is that they were on their home turf at Piedmont Park and that they were very loose, half-rehearsal things where they would try stuff they didn't usually play, take a bunch of breaks, and mess around. Did the Dead even play for 4 hours on a regular basis at that time?

As far as the June 26 Fillmore show, Bill Graham tells us how long they played. He introduced them the next night by saying they'd taken the stage at 2:30 or 3 and played until 7. He obviously wasn't timing them with a stopwatch, but if you conservatively assume they played from 3 to 6:30 and took a half-hour set break, that's still three hours, and it's not so hard to imagine that one going longer if they were that into it. But it's not six or eight hours or anywhere close. Graham would've mentioned it, possibly while complaining that he was being fined hundreds of dollars as a result of noise complaints after the cops shut the show down at the five hour mark and that the Allman Brothers were supposed to perform on the 27th but were going to miss the show because they were sleeping it off.

As far as the story about the crowd being silent and everybody just walking out into the morning: I'm going to guess that's a conflation based on the music industry crowd being kind of dead on 27th, which Duane comments on from the stage. But the sunrise part is right. The sun rose in New York at 5:26 a.m. on the morning of June 27, 1971. If the band played anywhere close to 7, or even 6, the sun was up when they finished.


I wasn't at this show, but i have attended a select few concerts in my life where the brilliance of the performance left the audience so stunned, it was hushed after the house lights came up, so much so it seemed like no one was speaking as people began filing out. I don't doubt this occasion was one such show.


CanadianMule - 5/26/2020 at 02:47 AM

No doubt people were blown away. But the legend grows, it likely stems from a single quote. It just helps to make the story even better.

As for that night, Graham alone is quoted as saying all sorts of various things. Because he didn't think people would be paying attention then - never mind 50 years later.

I have heard various times thrown out over the years. I am sure it was a long show and every body enjoyed themselves.

As for all the rest, there are far too many available shows from various months and the setlists just don't add up to these marathons shows. And not a single one has ever surfaced and peoples' memories after 50 years...…..well it sure seemed like 5 hours.

As I mentioned, I have heard Mt Jams that seemed to last an hour+ - but then on the recording it is 15 minutes. Pretty sure Derek is still on stage in Gilford finishing his solo years later. LOL - On the recording - he almost does the same solo twice during the tune. Some variations of course but not lots. Great solo - maybe why he played it again.


Marley - 5/26/2020 at 12:53 PM

quote:
As I mentioned, I have heard Mt Jams that seemed to last an hour+ - but then on the recording it is 15 minutes.

This reminded me of an old rumor about a 53-minute Mountain Jam from in Byron, GA in 1970. It was very specific and got people really curious - that would be the longest known Mountain Jam by the first lineup. Everyone knew there was a recording but it never got out as a bootleg. Years later the Atlanta Pop set was finally released, and they played Mountain Jam for about 53 minutes ... if you combine the two separate performances of the song spread out across their two sets from the festival. Oops.

quote:
From the same book, Bill Graham’s recollections of the early-morning hours of 6/27/71

“The Brothers went on around 1:30 or 2 - the set ended around 5 - it was a brilliant, brilliant set - the audience didn’t demand more in those days, they respected that the musicians were humans

“They went back onstage, it must have been around 5:30 - they began an improvisational piece, w/the interplay of the guitars & organ - they did pattern structures, playing against each other

“It was heavenly music - it wasn’t hard rock, they just played these melodic blues riffs...whatever else

“They walked off the stage - the kids in the audience applauded - it was 5 after 7”

So on the one hand, that confirms they played a great, long set that night (we're all sure they did). On the other, he's now added half an hour or an hour - on the 27th he said they played for 4 to 4 1/2 hours, then in the book he makes it sound like they played for 5 or 5 1/2 hours. If the last song he's describing is Mountain Jam, it was usually 30-40 minutes and nothing close to 90.


matt05 - 5/26/2020 at 01:44 PM

my guess the mountain jam maybe had some tuning or something before it and that was counted by Graham?


Stephen - 5/26/2020 at 02:16 PM

The one area of general agreement is that it was sunup when the playing stopped
If so, that tells me it was thruout the nite
Bill Graham’s intro later that nite at the finale Said It All


blackey - 5/26/2020 at 02:32 PM

Yes it is true it was daylight when they quit playing. Gregg has mentioned it and I found an interview with Dickey a few years ago and he says he had lost track of time and was surprised when people began to exit the theater by the emergency exits and sunlight came pouring into the theater. Dickey wasn't aware night time had ended.

I wasn't there that night and it is doubtful they played non stop for 8 hours. But it must have been more than 2 hours. And perhaps 4.


Marley - 5/26/2020 at 02:58 PM

quote:
my guess the mountain jam maybe had some tuning or something before it and that was counted by Graham?

There's no amount of tuning that gets a 30 or 40 minute song to 90, though. We can all agree to pretend they really played My Favorite Things that one time and that adds a few minutes, but that doesn't get you an hour. Coltrane could play that song for an hour, but it's a noisy atonal version that'd include long bass and piano solos. It's not much like the 13 minute version from the album.
quote:
The one area of general agreement is that it was sunup when the playing stopped
If so, that tells me it was thruout the nite

Right, that part is pretty easy to confirm since there are websites that will tell you when the sun rose on different dates in history. Even if they quit before dawn at 5:26, it would have been getting lighter outside by 5.


matt05 - 5/26/2020 at 06:03 PM

quote:
quote:
my guess the mountain jam maybe had some tuning or something before it and that was counted by Graham?

There's no amount of tuning that gets a 30 or 40 minute song to 90, though. We can all agree to pretend they really played My Favorite Things that one time and that adds a few minutes, but that doesn't get you an hour. Coltrane could play that song for an hour, but it's a noisy atonal version that'd include long bass and piano solos. It's not much like the 13 minute version from the album.
quote:
The one area of general agreement is that it was sunup when the playing stopped
If so, that tells me it was thruout the nite

Right, that part is pretty easy to confirm since there are websites that will tell you when the sun rose on different dates in history. Even if they quit before dawn at 5:26, it would have been getting lighter outside by 5.



lol maybe they rebuilt a guitar on stage then tuned it


Marley - 5/26/2020 at 06:24 PM

Didn't Dickey briefly have facial hair around this time? Maybe the whole band got a shave and a haircut onstage from 5:30 to 6 during Mountain Jam.


BIGV - 5/26/2020 at 06:41 PM

Just another example of the media printing whatever they want


CanadianMule - 5/27/2020 at 04:17 AM

Remember that they were not the only act.

So not like anyone thinks they played 8 hours. LOL

The whole show ran late and that is why they sun was rising.

It doesn't explain all the other marathons shows people claim to have witnessed or what could have possibly been played. The idea of playing every song for 30 minutes is comical but it never happened.

Two and a half hours is plenty so nothing to be knocked. I think in the grand scheme of things - the last lineup played the longest average shows followed closely by the Dickey/Warren era. My opinion and I can play the shows. If a 4/5 disc Original lineup show pops up then at least we know it happened once.


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