Thread: Sloppy "Stairway" from Jimmy Page 1983

pops42 - 5/22/2020 at 06:47 PM

Not even Jeff Beck and Clapton could save it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlEVtA_TGQ


DeadMallard - 5/22/2020 at 06:54 PM

Did Zep write this one or cop it from one of the blues guys?

Their manager Peter Grant was one of the biggest **** s in the history of the music business. A real tough guy as long as he'd had a bump of coke and the road crew backing him.


blackey - 5/22/2020 at 07:05 PM

Wow. I heard Jimmy play a little rough on TV but I didn't realise he could be that rough. Tons of clams in this. Clapton and Beck had to have been embarrassed for him. This has as many clams as Dickey did when he came back in 2018 playing that modified SG with the knobs and pickup switch laid out like a Les Paul. It later came out Dickey had a mild stroke. But with both of these guitar icons it has to be drugs and booze.

Jimmy Page needs to be sat down and made to listen to this!!

https://youtu.be/Vq-M3QJ4-fc


Zambi - 5/22/2020 at 07:39 PM

I think this was around the peak of Page's heroin addiction.

This was from the ARMS tour, which was a fund raiser / awareness raiser for MS in honor of Ronnie Lane from Faces. I had the VHS tapes both Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 that were recorded at Royal Albert Hall. Page's playing seemed worse there than on this, based on memory alone. But it was also weak material. This tour was in 1983 so Page used it basically to support his 1982 solo album which was the soundtrack for the movie Death Wish II. For the ARMS tour, Page played 3 songs from that album and then Stairway. And then came out for the encore during Clapton's set to play Layla with Jeff Beck and then a Ronnie Lane song to close out the evening. Page's playing on the Death Wish stuff was worse than this, and he had a horrible tone playing a Tele and Strat except for Stairway.

Also, Page more or less played with a pick-up band that was basically Jeff Beck's band with Stevie Winwood on vocals. Monster players, but not well suited for Page music.

Jeff Beck stole the show playing a mini-set from There and Back and Wired. Admirable on Duane's part on Layla, IIRC.

Most if not all of it is on Youtube and worth a viewing.

[Edited on 5/22/2020 by Zambi]


Zambi - 5/22/2020 at 07:53 PM

Should clarify that Steve Winwood did only the UK leg of the ARMS tour. Page had Paul Rogers singing on the US leg of the tour, which led to The Firm the next year.

Also, that tour was the first time that Clapton, Beck & Page shared a stage. Yet didn't do a Yardbirds song. Odd looking back on it.

I think Beck also missed an opportunity to bring Page out to play on Beck's Bolero, which Page played on for the original recording for the Jeff Beck Group's Truth album. But maybe with the way Page was playing at the time perhaps not a bad idea after all.

Page & Beck at Beck's RR HoF induction: https://youtu.be/laXXXJ_1dHQ

[Edited on 5/22/2020 by Zambi]


pops42 - 5/22/2020 at 08:18 PM

Looks like he had his "guitar face" and "rock-star posing" down good though.


blackey - 5/22/2020 at 08:29 PM

Yeah pops42. Turn the volume down and he looks like he is killing it!

I remember Leon Russell being ask what happened to the guitar player he had last tour. Leon said I had to cut him and before that have the sound man mix him light. He held his axe real good though.

Yes Jimmy was on smack back then they say. Looks as if these guys would realise if they can't drive a car like that then why do they think they are playing like Harry James on trumpet on stage???


KCJimmy - 5/22/2020 at 09:25 PM

Not certain that one was as bad as Live Aid 2 years later...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBk-iRihSUg

I always thought Zeppelin was an incredible studio band. And on good night live they pretty darn good. But the original ABB on bad night live (if you can find one) was still extremely good.


CanadianMule - 5/22/2020 at 09:29 PM

The Atlantic Records Anniversary show is worse. Page abandons the solo completely. In their defence, Zeppelin played very late after a day long affair and likely more than a few drinks.

As for Peter Grant, I say it every time. DeadMallard could not be more wrong. All of it coming from one tale that has been written about by hundreds since who were not there. Not sure why the hatred but your information is very misguided and well....wrong.

Peter Grant who I have met, did not need anyone fighting for him and that is fact. Ask anyone who dealt with him if Peter needed anyone to be tough.

He is also one of if not the most important manager in Rock History. Because he was tough and demanded the money and wouldn't back down. Bands like The Stones were playing for !0-15% of the gate before Peter Grant came along.

He also is responsible for changing the touring industry and getting musicians paid instead of just promoters. Took merchandise to a new level which is an artists biggest revenue. Every band since owes him thanks as his change created billions of dollars to artists.

Those are facts.


Zambi - 5/22/2020 at 10:21 PM

Peter Grant should be in the R&R HoF inducted with an Ahmet Ertegun Award (non-performers).


Stephen - 5/22/2020 at 10:51 PM

quote:
Did Zep write this one or cop it from one of the blues guys?




The band Spirit, or maybe a band member, claimed Zeppelin copped the STHvn riff from one of their songs - Spirit sued for back royalties, copyright infringement etc - but unsuccessfully - the case was finally resolved in the last year -


dimplesjbc - 5/23/2020 at 12:14 AM

Zeppelin were lucky to have Peter Grant just google him and itís all there for your reading pleasure , a shrewd businessman indeed .


blackey - 5/23/2020 at 12:42 AM

KCJimmy. To me that one with Plant was a little better than the one with Clapton and Beck but it still sucked. I saw Led Zeppelin live twice in the early 1970's and Jimmy Page was hot as I remember. I wasn't aware his playing became worse than a teen age garage band. It is surprising. It's actually awful guitar playing.

Can you imagine Dickey playing like that on that spring 2000 tour?? If Jimmy Page was in the Allman Brothers not only would Butch tell Bert Holman I'm never going to play with that SOB again, he would have kicked Page's butt. Butch said a couple of times that back in the 1970's he wanted to kick Page and Plant's butts and that Duane couldn't stand them either. But the second time Butch said that to the press, about 2005 or so wasn't it?, Dickey was asked about it and Dickey said it wasn't true. That Duane liked Led Zeppelin. Butch said one reason he wanted to physically assault Jimmy Page were those pants he wore but Dickey countered that too and said Duane had a pair of pants like that too. This was several years after the fax and Dickey leaving the band so I don't know how much of this was Dickey just messing with Butch but I imagine Duane probably did like Led Zeppelin.


blackey - 5/23/2020 at 12:47 AM

Peter Grant needed to sit Jimmy Page down and talk to him like this!!!

https://youtu.be/Vq-M3QJ4-fc


CanadianMule - 5/23/2020 at 04:58 AM

quote:
Zeppelin were lucky to have Peter Grant just google him and itís all there for your reading pleasure , a shrewd businessman indeed .


Absolutely. Jimmy Page had also already learned many lessons early on and from how others were robbed.

I can easily wager it was also Grant who suggested screwing anyone on royalties.

What is never actually credited to Zeppelin though is that the actual artists/families received cash from them. If they had originally given credit, the artists would have received none as they had all signed absolutely terrible deals. The Blues guys made no money from album/45s/78s or any publishing as they signed it all away.

You want the real thieves, it is not Zeppelin. They ended up rich because of Zeppelin. Ask any if they are complaining? LOL

You want bad Page - here it is - Heartbreaker is where is all goes wrong. LOL - By Stairway - He surrenders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GeZs3LBYdY


CanadianMule - 5/23/2020 at 05:44 AM

Here is what The Yardbirds and Zeppelin have to say about Peter Grant.

Chris Dreja "Before Peter Grant was our manager I never made any money.". Says it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM6jG6OxfjE


DeadMallard - 5/23/2020 at 03:05 PM

quote:
The Atlantic Records Anniversary show is worse. Page abandons the solo completely. In their defence, Zeppelin played very late after a day long affair and likely more than a few drinks.

As for Peter Grant, I say it every time. DeadMallard could not be more wrong. All of it coming from one tale that has been written about by hundreds since who were not there. Not sure why the hatred but your information is very misguided and well....wrong.

Peter Grant who I have met, did not need anyone fighting for him and that is fact. Ask anyone who dealt with him if Peter needed anyone to be tough.

He is also one of if not the most important manager in Rock History. Because he was tough and demanded the money and wouldn't back down. Bands like The Stones were playing for !0-15% of the gate before Peter Grant came along.

He also is responsible for changing the touring industry and getting musicians paid instead of just promoters. Took merchandise to a new level which is an artists biggest revenue. Every band since owes him thanks as his change created billions of dollars to artists.

Those are facts.


Man I am really impressed you actually met him. That's amazing.

Did you get an autograph?

Trying to rationalize him as a human being because he made a lot of money for client is sickening.

As far as comments explaining Zep's plagiarism as a good thing, minimizing it or denying it that's beyond moronic. Fanboy's becoming fanatics.


Dino - 5/23/2020 at 04:33 PM

Thread starts out with an observation of Jimmy Page being sloppy.

Devolves into a Peter Grant argument in 17 posts. Outstanding!


DeadMallard - 5/23/2020 at 05:00 PM

Led Zeppelin plagiarism. My hand got tired so I didn't post parts 3 & 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M


JimSheridan - 5/23/2020 at 10:39 PM

I think Jimmy Page's decline is a real tragedy.

If you watch the Zep footage from that 1969 Danish TV special, his chops are seriously sharp. And obviously, the Led Zeppelin albums have very well-crafted music, iconic guitar riffs and leads. Those albums are a textbook of hard rock playing.

But really, post-Zep, his decline both in chops and in songwriting vision was immediate and sharp. I've never seen such a precipitous drop.

And really, for 4 decades now, he has not offered much that is memorable and complete. A cool riff here, a nice song idea with bad singing there, but.....


pops42 - 5/23/2020 at 10:42 PM

"Rain Song" is my favorite work from him.


JimSheridan - 5/23/2020 at 10:57 PM

pops, that is a great song. I love the live version in particular.

Jimmy tried to recapture that magic in the song "Wonderful One" on the UnLedded album, but it just doesn't get there.


PeachNutt - 5/23/2020 at 11:17 PM

Jimmy Page has always been a sloppy player in Live settings - that's just him....


JimSheridan - 5/24/2020 at 12:31 AM

PeachNutt, that is true, but he was pretty sharp live 1968-1971, still very good 73-75, hit and miss 1977.

In 1979, his chops were notably off in terms of being able to pull of some of the trickier / faster stuff, and they've been really rough since. He has moments in which he will competently hit the same notes as on the album - something like the "Celebration Day" solo maybe - but boy, the live Firm stuff is very rough ditto the ARMS material. With Page/Plant, the best he did was try to echo the studio versions.

Compare a 1973 "Song Remains the Same" to the version from the O2 reunion in 2007. In 2007, he just arpeggiated the chords during the solo spots rather than trying to play leads. It was a clear concession to where he is at.

So, sloppy at times with Zepp yes, but at markedly different level post-1979.


Stephen - 5/24/2020 at 12:50 AM

Was underwhelmed by the Outrider album - no doubt that for such a prolific writer & monster guitarist, Jimmy pretty much vanished post-Zep
But thereís Zep still & heís one of the greats in my book - must disagree about Wonderful One, love that one, great lyrics

[Edited on 5/24/2020 by Stephen]


CanadianMule - 5/24/2020 at 06:29 AM

I actually did get his autograph. I rarely ever ask anyone for them but Icons like that - definitely.

You also clearly have no knowledge of anything he accomplished out side of some Bill Graham tale that hundreds have written about and as tales do - they vary. And who cares? You as you mention it over and over as if you were the one beaten. Guy beat his son and then got his ass kicked for it. Guess the security shouldn't have beat up a kid.

As for royalties, if you read what I wrote you may understand. Those blues artists that deserved royalties would not gave got them had they originally been given credit.

They signed publishing away immediately. Many of those artists cleaned the studios to make a few bucks. They were ripped off long before Zeppelin ripped them off.

Don't bother with facts though. In case you were wondering, the families/heirs were award cash from Zeppelin - thus they got the cash as I stated.

Glad I impressed you but sad to say it wasn't mutual.


CanadianMule - 5/24/2020 at 06:34 AM

Heroin was the decline and killer but Page quite simply - didn't play often and it showed.

You can't pick it up once every 5 to 10 years for a Reunion gig and be good.

When they did the Page/Plant tours, I think that was Jimmy's modern peak. Saw a bunch of shows on those tours are Jimmy was real good at all of them. Having another guitarists helped immensely.

Page/Crowes had moments and over all I liked it.


bettyhynes - 5/24/2020 at 12:57 PM

if Jimmy Page was sloppy Live the fans in the early days either never noticed it or cared. Saw them live in '70,71,73,74,75 and the energy was so incredible. Never noticed a bad performance.Think I saw them around '77 but was not memorable,he may have started to lose it for a bit. The other kind of average performance was a Firm tour in the mid 80's.
Saw Page again with Plant in the mid 90's and was still good-not the energy of before but great shows.
He set the bar really high with his early shows-iconic being the best description of the entire band!!
(think they should've turned up Jeff Becks guitar level in the video above though)

[Edited on 5/24/2020 by bettyhynes]


blackey - 5/24/2020 at 01:12 PM

I saw them twice in early 1970's too bettyhynes. Loudest shows I ever attended. Actually too much for my ears. Page had a double neck SG and a beautiful Sunburst Les Paul he played some with a violin bow. I didn't notice him playing sloppy. Years later on TV long after Led Zeppelin Page was surprisingly sloppy. Drugs is what I figured. But these videos posted here recently was far worse. One would think they guy was just a beginner. Enough clams to fill up a big picnic basket.

But in the 70s I was in pressed with Page, Plant and especially the drummer


musicmann - 5/25/2020 at 02:58 AM

quote:
Jimmy Page has always been a sloppy player in Live settings - that's just him....

Exactly!!


Spinaltap - 5/25/2020 at 12:11 PM

Yea, he is and sounds sloppy, but beyond that,his amp, the clean sound isn't clean enough, and the distortion isn't good. Makes the while thing sound way off. Clapton sounded great though.


robslob - 5/25/2020 at 02:26 PM

quote:

Jimmy Page has always been a sloppy player in Live settings - that's just him....


Someoone already "seconded" this remark but I will again. Jimmy is sloppy, that's always been his style. I didn't think the video was all that bad but I'm not a guitar player either. What I AM is a Jimmy Page fan going back to first seeing Zeppelin in 1971 and twice more in '73. All three of those shows were EPIC, still imprinted in my brain as my early rock education and rock FASCINATION. I never bothered seeing Zeppelin again. I knew that they could NEVER top what I heard at those three shows.

In another thread people are arguing about the length of ABB shows in the early days. Well, I'm not mistaken. That 1971 show (Zep III was the latest record) was 3-1/2 hours including 5 encores. My guitar playing buddy convinced me to go.............I didn't even know who Led Zeppelin was.........I was 16.


DeadMallard - 5/25/2020 at 03:46 PM

quote:
I actually did get his autograph. I rarely ever ask anyone for them but Icons like that - definitely.

You also clearly have no knowledge of anything he accomplished out side of some Bill Graham tale that hundreds have written about and as tales do - they vary. And who cares? You as you mention it over and over as if you were the one beaten. Guy beat his son and then got his ass kicked for it. Guess the security shouldn't have beat up a kid.

As for royalties, if you read what I wrote you may understand. Those blues artists that deserved royalties would not gave got them had they originally been given credit.

They signed publishing away immediately. Many of those artists cleaned the studios to make a few bucks. They were ripped off long before Zeppelin ripped them off.

Don't bother with facts though. In case you were wondering, the families/heirs were award cash from Zeppelin - thus they got the cash as I stated.

Glad I impressed you but sad to say it wasn't mutual.


So you support slapping a kid around? Nice.

Now this guy really looks like he's a tough guy doesn't he. Keep that autograph in good shape. I'm sure it'll be worth a mint eventually besides the emotional attachment you have to Peter.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=%2f3Qw3PRv&id =15F36FDB9FB9B348022A35CF305B6492C0D6C112&thid=OIP._3Qw3PRvYMBkloujZI8L VgHaF8&mediaurl=http%3a%2f%2fc8.alamy.com%2fcomp%2fB506ND%2fpeter-grant -manager-of-the-group-led-zeppelin-in-his-office-B506ND.jpg&exph=1043&a mp;expw=1300&q=Peter+Grant+LED+Zeppelin&simid=607994157110330351&am p;selectedIndex=8&ajaxhist=0


JimSheridan - 5/25/2020 at 04:26 PM

Some great live Zeppelin from 1969. Consider Page's speed, dexterity, and accuracy here versus anything post 1979:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnfgRfhdpeQ


CanadianMule - 5/25/2020 at 06:21 PM

quote:
So you support slapping a kid around? Nice.


You need to keep up with the script here. I can't keep propping you up.

I said the exact opposite about hitting a kid. The incident that you constantly mention was caused because the Security (biker) hired by Bill Graham beat up Peter Grant's kid. So he got beat. You constantly refer to Grant needing helping. Actually just a matter of being tired and giving someone else a chance to beat him. I don't condone it in any way. But that is what happened.

I have seen many similar biker beatings over the years.

Even funnier now that you don't even know the story you quote so often. So to be sure here - Grant's son got beat up - the guy who did it got beaten for it. You are feeling sorry for the child beater. Grant is better than me as if you touch my kids - they won't even find you.

Don't mess with a man's kid especially Peter Grant. Reasonably sure that the lesson was learned.


jszfunk - 5/25/2020 at 10:03 PM

quote:
quote:
So you support slapping a kid around? Nice.


You need to keep up with the script here. I can't keep propping you up.

I said the exact opposite about hitting a kid. The incident that you constantly mention was caused because the Security (biker) hired by Bill Graham beat up Peter Grant's kid. So he got beat. You constantly refer to Grant needing helping. Actually just a matter of being tired and giving someone else a chance to beat him. I don't condone it in any way. But that is what happened.

I have seen many similar biker beatings over the years.

Even funnier now that you don't even know the story you quote so often. So to be sure here - Grant's son got beat up - the guy who did it got beaten for it. You are feeling sorry for the child beater. Grant is better than me as if you touch my kids - they won't even find you.

Don't mess with a man's kid especially Peter Grant. Reasonably sure that the lesson was learned.


Thanks for setting the record straight......I was about to go there. There was a podcast I posted recently with the author of a new book about Peter Grant. Very interesting. I hope to read it someday.

We all have moments in our life when we are not at our best. I can attest to that. I am the farthest from being self righteous. It's easy to point fingers.

We live in a society where the focus is more on the bad than good.....unfortunately.
Whether it's Jimmy Pages playing and Peter's approach to business in this thread
or whoever and whatever in the public eye.

I was going to go into this thread with more of a defensive attitude. Nah..ain't worth it.
I WORSHIP at the foot of Page,and Blackmore is right there with him as probably my top 2. I was listening to some live DP this weekend. Lord and Blackmore on stage were a dangerous duo.

Yeah I won't deny any of the posts about Jimmy's playing over the last few decades. I get it , it is what it is.....video is proof. I don't want to focus on negativity on this site like the WP and in the world of media

All I have to say is bury me with Physical Graffiti..nuff said.

[Edited on 5/25/2020 by jszfunk]


JimSheridan - 5/26/2020 at 01:28 AM

JSZ, when I critique Page's post-Zepp playing, it's not with any sense of joy, more a sense of bewilderment.

From 1968-77, Page wrote the textbook for hard rock playing. I think after Hendrix, he's the most influential "guitar hero" out there. That's what makes the immediate shift into not being as guitar heroic so remarkable. It's the kind of mysterious fall that makes ya want to believe the "deal with the devil gone wrong" stuff.

I still do buy just about anything that has his name on it. Jump on the "Jimmy Page's best post-Zepp stuff" and put some good recommendations on there!!

For that matter, we could use a "best Blackmore tracks" thread too.....


Buzzy82 - 5/26/2020 at 02:35 AM

I have always been blown away that an artist could even get on a stage high on heroin; let alone play or sing.


CanadianMule - 5/26/2020 at 02:35 AM

Deep Purple is right beside Zeppelin in the heavily "borrowed" dept. Many of their riffs were straight out lifted.

Most of the Zeppelin borrowing came more from the lyrics.

We could point out millions.

Chuck Berry didn't come up with the 1-IV-V chord progression but based virtually every one of his songs on it. Then thousands borrowed from him. Somebody's family should be billionaires but they are not.


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