Thread: Skynyrd. Dowd bashing

BrerRabbit - 5/10/2020 at 06:09 PM

Just got done reading some Ed King Dowd-bashing on Steve Hoffman forums. How Tom Dowd wrecked LS sound. How Dowd "couldn't mix a cake". Maybe King was just pissed because he wasn't part of the cake.

I saw them in 74 and 76 and not blaming Ed King but they were way cleaner with two guitars. For one thing, the guitars were in tune. Way more compressed, sinister, streamlined and polished - spooky swamp stealthy like a water moccasin, snake up on you and bit you when you didnt even know it - 74 was stunning but never chilled your spine, there was something new and dark on board in 76. 76, punchy original sounding hard rock outfit not the wahoo party dueling guitars sound of three guitars duking it out - which was a blast for the melee on the end of Free Bird but a mess on the rest. Could have solved that with an extra guitar added end of show.

Long story short - 74, more fun, big party, high energy. 76, way better sound, serious music you had to pay attention, you couldnt just wave a Schlitz around and yell, and tell your grandkids in the meth lab you saw Lynyrd Skynyrd back in the day - but you never actually heard them, not really.

Just going on record in favor of Tom Dowd, Bullets was their best sounding record, thanks to Dowd. Not talking about best songs, strictly recording and musicianship - top of their game. As for King trashing Dowd all over the web, sounds like sour grapes to me.

For a short time LS sounded different, a sound unto itself, a big rock sound with room to grow, heading into the realm of the British supergroups.

Not saying they weren't epic when they went back to three guitars, I am saying epic was the trouble - I just think it locked them into guitar army, cumbersome - big orchestra playing the hits. They would have been able to move and change with the two guitar sound. Think Infantry vs Special Forces.

So in 1976 caught a glimpse of a whole different beast - but the audience didn't buy it so LS doubled down with a hired gun on the tried and true - I get it, but 1976 was pearls before swine. The audience didn't get it at all. It just wasnt the big hootnholler they were expecting - wait a minute, I gotta figure out actual music?????

So back tf off Tom Dowd, Kingsters.

[Edited on 5/10/2020 by BrerRabbit]


DeadMallard - 5/10/2020 at 06:47 PM

I read an article several years ago with Bobby Whitlock just putting a dagger into Tom Dowd and his impact on the Layla album. It was in a major London newspaper several years after the albums release. The gist of Whitlock's point was that he and Eric produced the album and Dowd was a minor player in the actual process.


robslob - 5/10/2020 at 07:36 PM

quote:

I read an article several years ago with Bobby Whitlock just putting a dagger into Tom Dowd and his impact on the Layla album. It was in a major London newspaper several years after the albums release. The gist of Whitlock's point was that he and Eric produced the album and Dowd was a minor player in the actual process.


That's a big pill to swallow and I personally am having NONE of it. Clapton and Whitlock produced Layla? To me that's got to be a load of BS but Whitlock has been known to have sour grapes regarding a number of issues.

There's a great AXS documentary on Clapton's career through all of the 70's. It's so good that I watched it for the second time last night. It goes into every facet of Clapton's 70's career. Every record, every tour is broken down into detail as well as Clapton's personal life. And there in this same documentary was Bobby Whitlock talking about what broke up the Dominoes: "We weren't high when we were recording Layla. After we were done for the day? Well, there was tons of drugs and drink. We may have started the day straight, had some food, maybe a massage before we went to the studio. Problem is, heroin and cocaine do not go out of your system right away and the lingering effects are still there the next day." The narrator goes on to say that basically that is the reason that the Dominoes never made any headway on a second studio recording, because everyone's habits had become so bad.

So Whitlock admits that all of them were raging addicts and yet wants me to believe that the band members, after they were finished recording for the day, were playing back the tapes, mixing the sound, and taking care of every other little detail that being a producer involves?

Uh-Huh. Sure Bobby.





[Edited on 5/11/2020 by robslob]


blackey - 5/10/2020 at 08:50 PM

Butch Trucks exploded on his forum when the Ed King take down of Tom Dowd was published. Butch was vicious in his verbal assault of Ed King. Butch revealed he has never care for Ed King as a musician, a person or his critique of anything.

Butch said Tom Dowd was fantastic and was absolutely the producer for the ABB and Tom was their choice to produce and the only reason he didn't produce every album was when Dowd wasn't available or then current contracts wouldn't allow it.

Yes I remember Bobby Whitlock saying he and Eric produced most of Layla on the studio floor. That they ignored most of Dowd's input and about all Dowd did is tell the engineer when to turn on the tape machine.

But Duane Allman praised Tom Dowd in a late 1970 radio interview and was glowing about Eric Clapton and his singing and guitar playing. Someone called in an asked which parts was Duane and which parts were Eric. Duane said he played a Gibson Les Paul and Eric played a Fender Stratocaster and if you know how the typical tone of each guitar sounds then that is how you can tell. Then Duane said if you can't tell a Paul from a Strat don't worry about it. Just sit back and enjoy some great music.


BrerRabbit - 5/10/2020 at 09:02 PM

quote:
. . .yet wants me to believe that the band members, after they were finished recording for the day, were playing back the tapes, mixing the sound, and taking care of every other little detail that being a producer involves?


It takes SO MUCH TIME to do all that. Not even sober people can record all day and mix all night. This Whitlock character sounds pretty mean, he has popped up here recently.


@blackey, any way we can dig up the Ed King anti-Dowd manifesto and Butch's rebuttal? Sounds like some good drama.


BrerRabbit - 5/10/2020 at 09:14 PM

Then again, I hate to say this, but Layla is pretty muddy here and tbere.
Maybe they did blow off Tom Dowd. Or maybe Tom Dowd saved it from total botch job by those guys. Who knows. I do know I have a decent ear, and Layla sounds pretty bad in places. I have the MFSL, the 40th, etc, there are definitely some weak spots. Interesting stuff.


CanadianMule - 5/10/2020 at 10:32 PM

All that matters to me when it comes to LS and guitars.

The best player that they ever had died in that plane crash sadly. Steve Gaines added so much to the band in such a short time with them. I will disagree with Bullets being the best sounding. Street Survivors is to me - the tightest that they ever were.

Also Gaines added song writing and singing to the mix also.

Sad


BrerRabbit - 5/10/2020 at 10:42 PM

Sad indeed. long time no see Canada - figured you would be killin the Name that Band thread


Dino - 5/11/2020 at 12:03 AM

What CM said

Further listening:
Steve Gaines - One in the Sun


CanadianMule - 5/11/2020 at 12:27 AM

He brought life to the band and definitely inspired Ronnie to some of his best lyrics and vocals.

The songs that he brought in were just killer.
I can only dream of what his 2nd, 3rd etc albums would have been like.


owencarol - 5/11/2020 at 12:46 AM

I've been a music junkie for a very long time. LS never caught my ear and as a matter of my personal taste I never cared for Free Bird. Too much musical masturbation. Tom Dowd produced some of the most amazing music over his time period. He was the musician behind the scenes. In my opinion he was the master of the Layla album. He, once again, is in my opinion, the equivalent of George Martin to the Beatles. Guess this will piss off a bunch of LS fans, but oh well. Music is a subjective topic and all of us, no matter our preferences, are entitled to our opinions.


blackey - 5/11/2020 at 01:21 AM

http://thebutchtrucks.blogspot.com/2011/12/studpiest-statement-i-have-ever- read.html?m=1

See if this works BerRabbit. This is one of Butch's Ed King bashing.


WaitinForRain - 5/11/2020 at 02:12 AM

Either you like the music or you don't.

But

Loved Butch's smackdown lololol.
We were howling with laughter on this end.

Way better read than people quoting magazines and old interviews 3rd hand to 'tell a story'
cause even the people who were there don't agree.


blackey - 5/11/2020 at 10:50 AM

If you read some of the comments on Butch's blog, some of the more stinging and colorful responses to Butch were later deleted. As a matter of fact, some fans??? were getting so rough on Butch by 2011 that he quit posting soon afterward. I was disappointed. Just let him say what he wants like it or not. It was Butch's blog. I didn't understand why he didn't eliminate the comments section. Some people were getting very NASTY to Butch.

Around 2010 and 2011, some were pointing out to Butch Gregg Allman's sloppy performances. I think Gregg's 2011 Beacon run had a good share of missed vocals and miscues on the organ. Butch's response was he had NO control over how Gregg Allman sounds and if you don't like what you hear including Butch's long drum solos then don't come to the shows.

When Butch began posting on this site in the 1990s it was wonderful. We got an direct inside look at the band. Some of the rumors about current and old band issues were wrong according to Butch when he was asked and people were able to prod Butch into pushing the band to mix up the set lists. He answered questions fans had about the albums, old shows, the original band etc. After 2000AD Butch made clear his dislike for Dickey, Dickey's moving the sound of the band more country on Brothers and Sisters and Butch not being proud of the influence the post 1972 ABB had on modern country music and that they should have fired Dickey after Duane died and hired two new guitar players and stuck to the sound the original band laid out.

Personally I was embarrassed at how hateful some on Butch's blog were to him and to the band in general. I guess some of the things Butch began to say about other bands, Skynyrd, Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin and Dickey Betts and other ABB problems ticked off some of the readers of his blog. I never liked what he said about Dickey myself and he couldn't let it go over the years. Dickey was a bigger deal to the ABB than Butch was to me. And around 2009 Butch slammed Led Zeppelin saying Robert Plant is what Atlantic Records wanted Gregg to look like. Get the lead singer from behind that organ, put a cucumber down his pants and let Gregg dance around or this band will never make it. Butch said he went with Duane to see Led Zeppelin and Duane was so angry at how they dressed and played that they walked out. Interestingly someone in the press asked Dickey about that around 2008 or so and Dickey said it wasn't true. Dickey said Duane loved Jimmy Page and owned a similar pair of pants. So who do you believe?? Take it from any of those guys with a grain of salt I suppose.

I liked Butch and his drumming and Butch spoke his mind including negative things to say about Warren and Derek after 2014. But that was Butch. Once he looked Duane Allman in the eye and told him what's what when drugs were beginning to mess with Duane's playing.

RIP Butch.

[Edited on 5/11/2020 by blackey]


porkchopbob - 5/11/2020 at 01:04 PM

The Ed King comments must have been from ages ago - didn't he die a couple of years ago? None of it sticks if you listen to Fillmore East - it's not easy capturing a live band and that album sounds fantastic.

I brought up Bobby Whitlock's Dowd and Duane-bashing in another thread just last week. That guy sounds bitter and insecure. I get the feeling he thought the Dominos was going to be a big thing for him but then Clapton went on a 3-year tailspin and the band fell apart. Think of it - after touring with Delaney & Bonnie, you're writing songs and recording in Clapton's new band and then along comes Duane Allman? And then Duane turns down an invitation to join a band that is the biggest thing that ever happened to you? Who the hell is he? Just sounds like sour grapes.

quote:
Then again, I hate to say this, but Layla is pretty muddy here and there.

I read somewhere that Clapton wanted to go lo-fi and used a Fender Champ. Some of it does sound muddy, but all of those layers on "Layla" and "Keep on Growing", etc, without sounding like a mess is all Tom Dowd.


CanadianMule - 5/11/2020 at 02:43 PM

Dowd was able to take heroin addicts and create a masterpiece.

He earned his cut. Likely deserved more.


BrerRabbit - 5/11/2020 at 03:30 PM

quote:
Dowd was able to take heroin addicts and create a masterpiece.

He earned his cut. Likely deserved more.


Lol, and the heroin addicts were able to provide material to create a masterpiece with. Miracles from every quarter.

Here is the genius behind Dusty In Memphis ffs, straight stellar pro, top flight.

Must be the Skynrd talk - Just stumbled across "Tuesday's Gone " on piano last night, super simple, such a satisfying song to sing. Would help to memorize the lyrics, instead of mumbling some lines about trains then doing the chorus


CanadianMule - 5/11/2020 at 05:27 PM

Well the addicts were pretty much playing the blues so if you get the band to make it through the tunes and then capture some magic moments. All those killer songs also have tracks that were not used. LOL

Tuning at times is questionable but Dowd blends them in the mix.

Producers in that era had to deal with far more than just the playing/recording. They were dealing with people who were pretty high and stretched out. They were also musical geniuses and the trick was to catch the magic. I think Dowd did a fine job all around. The album had many worried and when it didn't initially sell then the blame would have fallen on Dowd. People were asking "Where are the hits?". In truth there really weren't any. At least not in the conventional sense of the music industry.

The true stroke of genius was in bring in Duane. He changes the entire landscape of what it would have been.


hotlantatim - 5/11/2020 at 06:37 PM

I didn't like the mix/sound as much on Give Me Back My Bullets, but I loved the sound on One More From the Road and Street Survivors (and Layla!), but Ed King's comments were dumb.

Butch's response personal attack back at Ed to level he did was as bad as Ed King making it personal about Tom Dowd.


tbomike - 5/11/2020 at 06:39 PM

Well even when he was alive to say Ed King speaks for Lynyrd Skynrd is a stretch.

For those who might like to read it a pretty cool Tom Dowd interview with great comments on lots of this including his thoughts on D&D, Duane, the Allmans, Ronnie, Dickey, Warren and a bunch more.

http://swampland.com/articles/view/title:tom_dowd

part 2

http://www.swampland.com/articles/view/title:tom_dowd_part_2




blackey - 5/11/2020 at 08:37 PM

Enjoyed the interview. No question Dowd was brilliant and working with these creative and sensitive and high and drunk artists had to be challenging and an art.

Ed King and Bobby Whitlock were wrong. Whitlock is noted for embellishing stuff. You better not take what any of them say as gospel. Gregg always told the story of hanging up with Duane and catching a ride cross country with a bass player Duane knew but didn't like and rode with him all the way from Los Angeles to Jacksonville, Florida. But a couple roadies for the original band would say Gregg must be confused because they know that Duane sent a plane ticket and Gregg flew.

I really liked Ed King in Lynyrd Skynyrd. I thought he was their best guitarist. I remember being in Virginia, either Richmond or Norfolk and we had tickets and Ed wasn't there. Found out the next day Ed King went AWOL on the band. Got his amp and Stratocaster and disappeared without telling anyone. Supposedly Ronnie was going to beat him silly for that but who knows if it's true. Well it is true Ed left the band mid tour with no notice. Just vanished.


tbomike - 5/11/2020 at 09:02 PM

quote:
Enjoyed the interview. No question Dowd was brilliant and working with these creative and sensitive and high and drunk artists had to be challenging and an art.

Ed King and Bobby Whitlock were wrong. Whitlock is noted for embellishing stuff. You better not take what any of them say as gospel. Gregg always told the story of hanging up with Duane and catching a ride cross country with a bass player Duane knew but didn't like and rode with him all the way from Los Angeles to Jacksonville, Florida. But a couple roadies for the original band would say Gregg must be confused because they know that Duane sent a plane ticket and Gregg flew.

I really liked Ed King in Lynyrd Skynyrd. I thought he was their best guitarist. I remember being in Virginia, either Richmond or Norfolk and we had tickets and Ed wasn't there. Found out the next day Ed King went AWOL on the band. Got his amp and Stratocaster and disappeared without telling anyone. Supposedly Ronnie was going to beat him silly for that but who knows if it's true. Well it is true Ed left the band mid tour with no notice. Just vanished.


Here is Ed's answer for you right here on his old forum. Fairly detailed.

https://edking.proboards.com/thread/30/leaving-band


StratDal - 5/11/2020 at 10:56 PM

quote:
Dowd was able to take heroin addicts and create a masterpiece.

He earned his cut. Likely deserved more.


That's one way of putting it!


BrerRabbit - 5/11/2020 at 11:38 PM

lol! Certainly not one to mince words.


blackey - 5/12/2020 at 12:55 AM

Thanks tbomike. Ed was very generous to explain it. It was wrong but I understand why he didn't tell anyone he was leaving mid tour. Ronnie would have exploded. May have put Ed in the hospital.


mikedc3 - 5/12/2020 at 01:46 AM

Butch was set up by a guy named Kent Griffith when he blogged that **** , and to anyone who knew about it, he looked like a fool. Butch didn't even know who Ed King was beforehand.

King BTW, was talking about what Dowd did to the 91 Skynyrd CD. They didn't like the way it sounded, King took some of the tapes and reworked them, Dowd got mad and severed ties with Skynyrd, and it caused some internal Skynyrd conflicts. Ed king was the artist, and if he didn't like the work Dowd did, it was his right to change it.

Also, If you read some of the Skynyrd books, especially the Ron Eckerman book, or interviews of their crew, Even Ronnie Van Zant lost confidence in Dowd in 1977. The Street Survivors record was rerecorded and mixed by their sound guy mostly with the Dowd stuff shelved. I believe the quote from RVZ is something like "Fuckin Dowd man, He's lost his mind" So there's a long history of Skynyrd people who didn't agree with the Dowd work on their stuff. Maybe their type of music wasn't Dowds forte.

Again, Butch was set up, bought Kent's hate for Ed King hook, line, and sinker, and made an ass of himself, and later apologized. Butch wouldn't have known Ed King if he bumped into him in the street. Ed King wrote and played one of the most popular and most recognizable songs and guitar intro's in music history. Butch played drums in the Allman Bros.


BIGV - 5/12/2020 at 02:00 AM

quote:
Then again, I hate to say this, but Layla is pretty muddy here and tbere.
Maybe they did blow off Tom Dowd. Or maybe Tom Dowd saved it from total botch job by those guys. Who knows. I do know I have a decent ear, and Layla sounds pretty bad in places. I have the MFSL, the 40th, etc, there are definitely some weak spots. Interesting stuff.


I agree here, Layla sounds worse than awful in spots. "Weak" doesn't even com close, I would use the term "muddy". Maybe it's the origin of the recordings, maybe it's the mix, whatever it is, Dowd's name is all over it...


mikedc3 - 5/12/2020 at 02:37 AM

Another thing about this that I just remembered. When Butch was attacking Ed King, completely ignoring his writing of Sweet Home Alabama, Ed was laying in a hospital days from death awaiting a donor heart to become available. Ed came days from dying, Butch who didn't even know of him was attacking him. Ed King "a arrogant, ignorant, redneck" said Butch. Ed King was from CA. As far from redneck as he could be. Meanwhile it was Butch who came across as arrogant and ignorant.


BrerRabbit - 5/12/2020 at 02:51 AM

^ Took me buying several different releases all different remasters to figure this is just how it sounds, and stop chasing the Holy Grail of the Perfect Layla.

Mustnt forget the listener is part of the production as well. One thing has changed since I was kneehigh to an amp and that is in the early 70s we cranked this record so damn loud the "mix" was not a concern. Now that I think on it I didn't even know what a "mix" was. What I did know was this was one of those records that you had to feed. The speakers had to be inflated to the spec psi.

Maybe the record requires more air movement than modern playback gear and contemporary listening habits offer, and the "mud" is that we just aren't unfurling the sheets letting the sails fill up, and becalmed like bored sailors we start picking at details. I cant recall the last time I cranked this record up to the volume it demands.

I sure don't recall any sound problems back when I was feeling the wind from the ripping cones listening to Derek and the Dominoes..Other than ringing ears, it sounded great.

Another analogy - if the tires are low and you dont run it up to the sweet rpm, your Porsche is gonna suck. So maybe we all need to revisit the correct amplification of Layla, then discuss Tom Dowd.

Turn it up!

[Edited on 5/12/2020 by BrerRabbit]


blackey - 5/12/2020 at 03:20 AM

I was just thinking. Did Tom Dowd mean Jim Gordon played the piano on Layla's long coda?

It's often regarded as THE solo from Bobby Whitlock.


lonomon - 5/12/2020 at 11:27 AM

quote:
I was just thinking. Did Tom Dowd mean Jim Gordon played the piano on Layla's long coda?

It's often regarded as THE solo from Bobby Whitlock.


i think you mean Rita Coolidge






blackey - 5/12/2020 at 01:09 PM

Wow I never knew this. Thanks lonomon for making me curious. Just did some digging and Rita Coolidge came out a few years ago saying that her then boyfriend Jim Gordon stole that song from her. She said Eric Clapton wrote the main part of the song then they tacked on the coda. When Rita heard it the first time on the radio, she immediately recognized that part as her song "Time" which was presented to Clapton as a demo. Rita said she wrote the melody and the bridge by herself and Jim Gordon contributed little to it.

Rita said she rushed to see a copy of the album and the credit was Eric Clapton, Jim Gordon. Rita contacted the record company and said she wrote that and her name has to be on the record moving forward.

It went to Robert Stigwood's office and he rejected her demand. Rita was going to fight for her share but was advised to drop it. Rita was told Robert Stigwood was wealthy, powerful and very mean and Stiggy usually gets his way. In short she couldn't afford to take him on and he could also damage her career.

And in recent years Bobby Whitlock has admited that one of the world's most famous piano solos in rock history is mostly Jim Gordon. Whitlock said he added some support parts because Gordon was a terrible piano player. Rita said the same and said Gordon wasn't much of a song writer either but Clapton loved his drumming so he got hired for that. I think Clapton recently said Jim Gordon is the best drummer he has worked with. I read that in the last few years.

In 1983 Jim Gordon brutally murdered his mother with a hammer and continues to be confined to a California prison for the insane.

[Edited on 5/12/2020 by blackey]


Marley - 5/12/2020 at 05:31 PM

quote:
Just did some digging and Rita Coolidge came out a few years ago saying that her then boyfriend Jim Gordon stole that song from her. She said Eric Clapton wrote the main part of the song then they tacked on the coda. When Rita heard it the first time on the radio, she immediately recognized that part as her song "Time" which was presented to Clapton as a demo. Rita said she wrote the melody and the bridge by herself and Jim Gordon contributed little to it.

She tells the story here. https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/7318951/rita-coolidge-layla -memoir-delta-lady-eric-clapton-derek-dominos

Rita's sister Priscilla was married to Booker T. Jones and they recorded the song together a few years after Layla, with its original title and lyrics. It's clearly the exact same piece of music, so it's kind of crazy that this was kept so quiet for 40 years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IJPLcwHOes

quote:
And in recent years Bobby Whitlock has admited that one of the world's most famous piano solos in rock history is mostly Jim Gordon.

I don't think that's a recent admission. I've known it ever since I first heard Layla, and that was probably 25 years ago.

[Edited on 5/13/2020 by Marley]


robslob - 5/13/2020 at 02:07 PM

Here's more on Jim Gordon from Wikipedia. According to this, Gordon and Rita Coolidge were in a relationship for awhile............but it didn't end well.

quote:

Mental health
Gordon developed schizophrenia and began to hear voices, including those of his mother, which compelled him to starve himself and prevented him from sleeping, relaxing or playing drums.[8] His physicians misdiagnosed the problems and instead treated him for alcohol abuse.[citation needed]

While on tour with Joe Cocker in the early 1970s, Gordon reportedly punched his then-girlfriend Rita Coolidge in a hotel hallway, thereby ending their relationship.[9]

Murder of mother, conviction and incarceration
On June 3, 1983, he attacked his 72-year-old mother, Osa Marie Gordon, with a hammer before fatally stabbing her with a butcher knife; he claimed that a voice told him to kill her.[7][10][11]

Only after his arrest for murder was Gordon properly diagnosed with schizophrenia. At his trial, the court accepted that he had acute schizophrenia, but he was not allowed to use an insanity defense because of changes to California law due to the Insanity Defense Reform Act.[8]

On July 10, 1984, Gordon was sentenced to 16 years to life in prison.[12] He was first eligible for parole in 1991, but parole has been denied several times. At a 2005 hearing, he claimed his mother was still alive. In 2014, he declined to attend his hearing and was denied parole until at least 2018. A Los Angeles deputy district attorney stated at the hearing that he was still "seriously psychologically incapacitated" and "a danger when he is not taking his medication".[13] In November 2017, Gordon was rediagnosed with schizophrenia. On March 7, 2018, Gordon was denied parole for the tenth time and is tentatively scheduled to become eligible again in March 2021.[14] As of 2018, he is serving his sentence
at the California Medical Facility, a medical and psychiatric prison in Vacaville, California.[15]



BrerRabbit - 5/13/2020 at 02:59 PM

Awful story behind one of the prettiest pieces of music ever recorded. Dowd must have really had a lot of extra bs to deal with. Other than Duane, the impression I am getting from that bunch thru the echoes of time is pure @ss-holery.


Marley - 5/13/2020 at 02:59 PM

It's a very upsetting and very sad story.


blackey - 5/13/2020 at 03:41 PM

Yes that is the wildest and scariest rock story I've heard. Think of the money Rita Coolidge missed getting. And Gordon's cut is waisted. Hopefully Rita or some one in Gordon 's mothers family gets it.

I remember reading people saying for years that was Bobby Whitlock playing on the coda. And Butch Trucks during an interview while they were recording Seven Turns that the piano Bobby Whitlock played on Layla is in the next room at Criteria in Miami.

Wow obviously Claptom did the right thing when he withdrew from playing for some time and left those people and Duane did the right thing when he declined to join the Dominos. Maybe he would still be alive now if he had been doing a show with them instead of being on break in October, 1971.

All these years I thought Clapton and Gordon wrote Layla but in truth Clapton wrote all of it and the coda was tacked on later and Gordon didn't write much of that either. Stole it from Rita Coolidge.


blackey - 5/13/2020 at 03:46 PM

Also I didn't know Robert Stigwood was demanding and could be nasty and mean. Not who Clapton should have joined for manager. Sounds like a Twiggs.


Wayne - 5/13/2020 at 03:51 PM

quote:
Yes that is the wildest and scariest rock story I've heard. Think of the money Rita Coolidge missed getting. And Gordon's cut is waisted. Hopefully Rita or some one in Gordon 's mothers family gets it.



_________________________________________________________

"There was no way Jim could have forgotten we’d written the song together. If I sound bitter, I’m not. “Layla” has generated hundreds of thousands of dollars in songwriting royalties -- maybe millions -- over the years for Eric. But I know that part of Jim’s share actually went to his daughter, Amy. And that, finally, was how I was able to deal with it, just knowing that she had something from her dad."

All these years I thought Clapton and Gordon wrote Layla but in truth Clapton wrote all of it and the coda was tacked on later and Gordon didn't write much of that either. Stole it from Rita Coolidge.


[Edited on 5/13/2020 by Wayne]


blackey - 5/13/2020 at 03:52 PM

https://youtu.be/t54NeRX03_o

Here they are. Watch that drummer Johnny!! Don't get too close.


Marley - 5/13/2020 at 07:00 PM

quote:
I know that part of Jim’s share actually went to his daughter, Amy. And that, finally, was how I was able to deal with it, just knowing that she had something from her dad."

That's very thoughtful. I'm glad it helped her come to terms with it, not that she had much choice. But I didn't know that she'd played her song for Clapton, and that puts him in a different light, to me, because that's the second person who contributed to Layla and didn't get a penny for it. We know Clapton promised Duane a cut of the royalties on the album and they never materialized until Galadrielle pursued it in recent-ish years, and then there's this story. When I thought that only happened to Duane, I though maybe Clapton just wasn't paying attention to business and finances because he was a mess at the time. Knowing Rita Coolidge also deserved money she didn't get and that Clapton's manager told her to get lost, you might start to wonder if that manager was doing what his client wanted him to do in both of those cases.

[Edited on 5/13/2020 by Marley]


BrerRabbit - 5/14/2020 at 03:02 AM

Excuse me while I physically assault you and steal your chops


CanadianMule - 5/14/2020 at 05:14 AM

Lesson rarely learned in the music industry especially in that era. When you are high and playing is smoking and someone says "we'll work out the details later" then you better have fun because you won't get paid.


lonomon - 5/14/2020 at 11:04 AM

quote:
Lesson rarely learned in the music industry especially in that era. When you are high and playing is smoking and someone says "we'll work out the details later" then you better have fun because you won't get paid.


Kinda was thinking the same thing.


stormyrider - 5/14/2020 at 06:32 PM

To Dowd's credit (according to one of the bios I read, can't remember which), he and Ertugan pulled Duane and Gregg aside summer of 71 and told them they needed to stop - not only were they wasting Dowd's time, but they were throwing their careers and lives away. He then gave Parker, Holliday among others as examples.


grahambrunsdon - 5/17/2020 at 11:50 AM

It is very easy to knock the sound of an album recorded nearly 50 years ago like Layla. Tom Dowd did an excellent job with the tools available. And like all older recordings it depends on which version and equipment you listen to it on. There is no doubt that my original 1970 vinyl two disc LP is the truer sound. But listening to hi resolution versions through studio quality headphones or balanced IEM, to me the 20th anniversary edition is the best. This remastered version brought the guitars forward and with the IEM, you to get to hear all the guitars as they would have sounded on the day.
And another point on the album, Bobby Whitlock like Carl Radle and Jim Gordon however good musicians they were and whatever their contribution they were only sidemen to the two greatest white blues guitarist of all time.


blackey - 5/17/2020 at 01:33 PM

That is true. Eric and Duane are the stars on that album.

Same with Duane and Dickey. AlPaul interviewing Reese Wyman both agreed that Duane and Dickey are the best twin lead guitar team for this kind of music. Not Warren and Derek.....who did a great job recreating what Duane and Dickey did the best.


Stephen - 5/17/2020 at 03:12 PM

Recreating, replicating, imitating, original band uppermost in mind during shows etc
Never heard any of that in this century’s ABB
Warren & Derek helped forge a fantastic sound that gave the band its own identity irrespective of its origins - just my .02 cents worth


DeadMallard - 5/17/2020 at 06:17 PM

quote:
All that matters to me when it comes to LS and guitars.

The best player that they ever had died in that plane crash sadly. Steve Gaines added so much to the band in such a short time with them. I will disagree with Bullets being the best sounding. Street Survivors is to me - the tightest that they ever were.

Also Gaines added song writing and singing to the mix also.

Sad


He's my favorite player from the band also. Awesome all around performer and songwriter.


blackey - 5/17/2020 at 07:35 PM

Yes I too would say Gaines was their best player. And it was over before we got to enjoy it.

Stephen the 21st century Allman Brothers created and forged it's own sound and idenity? And irrespective of what the original band and Duane and Dickey did? So to you the Allman Brothers is the 21st century band and the original band was a different, separate unit that just happened to use the same name?

Well what was the deal with pictures of the original band on the screen behind them? And what are they doing playing all those songs from the original band or the Chuck Lamar lineup? Why didn't they created their own just as Butch wanted ( except with Butch it was only Dickey's songs he wanted axed).

I guess that is why Derek and Warren never topped what Dickey and Duane did with those songs on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach. Derek and Warren were trying to forge and create the new band's sound from scratch and it just fell a little short.

Link me a One Way Out, Statesboro Blues, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, You Don't Love Me etc by the 21st century band that tops what is on those live tracks from 1971 and 72. Love to hear it.

And I say that with all due respect to Derek and Warren who are fantastic players. If they topped what Duane and Dickey did together in 1970 and 71 then I haven't heard it so far.

[Edited on 5/17/2020 by blackey]


Stephen - 5/17/2020 at 09:59 PM

Separated by 40 years as they are, it’s tough for me to conclude/compare who was better on the songs both bands played
I hear ya, nothing tops the original band for me either

But my gosh, the Dreams from 1998 Beacon - the whole band is feelin it, but Dickey is the star of my copy (doesn’t have a date) - it’s blissful playing - Jack’s is too, but awesome that Dickey got a chance to shine on it too

The TNMore from Meadowbrook 2009 - he sang it a million times, & all I hear in Gregg’s singing is how unsick & tired he is of it

I adore Instrumental Illness - their first one w/out Dickey & its fantastic - different, & ABB thru & thru - it showed how comfortable in their own skin they were

So each lineup was great & the comparisons, while fun, are also often futile for me
Yes those boys were trailblazers in every possible sense of the word alright - they paved the road, did the grunt work - beyond compare


[Edited on 5/18/2020 by Stephen]


Chain - 5/17/2020 at 11:34 PM

One thing I do wonder is had Tom Dowd not been present for the recording of the one Derrick and The Dominoes album, would Duane Allman ever been involved? We all know the legend is Tom Dowd was the person who made the connection between Clapton and Duane.

Had it been a some other producer, with no history with the Allman Brothers Band, would Clapton and/or other members of the Dominoes attended the ABB show where the famous meeting occurred? Without the involvement of Tom Dowd there most likely would have been no Duane Allman. Ponder that for a moment....


pops42 - 5/17/2020 at 11:53 PM

Duane was a well respected session guy by then, and The Allman Brothers Band was touring their asses off, and Duane found time to play live with Delaney and Bonnie, and the time of [Layla] maybe Duane and Clapton would have not played on that album together if it werent for Tom Dowd, no doubt about that.


blackey - 5/18/2020 at 12:12 AM

No Chain I seriously doubt Duane would have. If it wasn't for Tom Dowd , Eric Clapton and the others wouldn't have gone down to the ABB show. Of course Eric a few years earlier called Atlantic Records' Jerry Wexler to find out who is playing guitar on Wilson Pickett's Hey Jude. And was told Skydog Allman.

Yes Stephen Instrumental Illness is very good. I think Warren and Otiel wrote that. Butch Trucks was pushing the guys to come up with instrumentals to replace Jessica, Liz Reed etc. Butch said on this website he himself would be involved in the writing of new instrumentals, so I was expecting to see his name of the album and was surprised it was just Warren and Otiel.

The last lineup certainly had the talent to make the latter day Allman Brothers all their own but never really put it together. They could have erased the original band to a big extent with 3 or 4 new albums of originial material including instrumentals on each album. Well I'm not sure anyone in the last lineup would have wrote some stuff that would sunset Jessica and Elizabeth Reed from the band's legacy and fan demand as Butch wanted. And when they returned Blue Sky, the audience reaction was incredible. It was clear expunging Dickey from the band's legacy or not...people expected to hear Blue Sky at a show called the Allman Brothers Band. A lot of the original band stuff is so good and long part of the band's musical legacy it would be real hard to remove it from the band's fanbase as Fleetwood Mac did with the Stevie Nix era. The fans who bought the albums with Stevie Nicks on them cared little about the original band and the original band was basically erasee from that band's legacy to me.

Derek and Warren assumed they would sunset the band in 2009 but Butch talked then into going another 5 years and on Butch's blog by 2011 he was getting complaints about Gregg's subpar performances at the Beacon. But Butch said he had NO control over how Gregg Allman sounds so don't come if you don't like it. In short the last lineup never shifted the legacy and reputation of the band's catalog forward and away from the original band and the Brothers and Sister's lineup. I think Warren and Derek was willing but they just couldn't get another album done not to mention 3 or 4 after Hitting The Note. But it would still be a tall order because the old stuff by the ABB is so popular with the fans and from their best selling albums not to mention how good the original band played on those albums and how groundbreaking what Duane and Dickey did in creating that ABB twin lead style.

[Edited on 5/18/2020 by blackey]

[Edited on 5/18/2020 by blackey]


pops42 - 5/18/2020 at 01:25 AM

quote:
No Chain I seriously doubt Duane would have. If it wasn't for Tom Dowd , Eric Clapton and the others wouldn't have gone down to the ABB show. Of course Eric a few years earlier called Atlantic Records' Jerry Wexler to find out who is playing guitar on Wilson Pickett's Hey Jude. And was told Skydog Allman.

Yes Stephen Instrumental Illness is very good. I think Warren and Otiel wrote that. Butch Trucks was pushing the guys to come up with instrumentals to replace Jessica, Liz Reed etc. Butch said on this website he himself would be involved in the writing of new instrumentals, so I was expecting to see his name of the album and was surprised it was just Warren and Otiel.

The last lineup certainly had the talent to make the latter day Allman Brothers all their own but never really put it together. They could have erased the original band to a big extent with 3 or 4 new albums of originial material including instrumentals on each album. Well I'm not sure anyone in the last lineup would have wrote some stuff that would sunset Jessica and Elizabeth Reed from the band's legacy and fan demand as Butch wanted. And when they returned Blue Sky, the audience reaction was incredible. It was clear expunging Dickey from the band's legacy or not...people expected to hear Blue Sky at a show called the Allman Brothers Band. A lot of the original band stuff is so good and long part of the band's musical legacy it would be real hard to remove it from the band's fanbase as Fleetwood Mac did with the Stevie Nix era. The fans who bought the albums with Stevie Nicks on them cared little about the original band and the original band was basically erasee from that band's legacy to me.

Derek and Warren assumed they would sunset the band in 2009 but Butch talked then into going another 5 years and on Butch's blog by 2011 he was getting complaints about Gregg's subpar performances at the Beacon. But Butch said he had NO control over how Gregg Allman sounds so don't come if you don't like it. In short the last lineup never shifted the legacy and reputation of the band's catalog forward and away from the original band and the Brothers and Sister's lineup. I think Warren and Derek was willing but they just couldn't get another album done not to mention 3 or 4 after Hitting The Note. But it would still be a tall order because the old stuff by the ABB is so popular with the fans and from their best selling albums not to mention how good the original band played on those albums and how groundbreaking what Duane and Dickey did in creating that ABB twin lead style.

[Edited on 5/18/2020 by blackey]

[Edited on 5/18/2020 by blackey]
Duane had the backing of Ahmet Ertegun, Jerry Wexler, and Phil Walden, he most certainly would have "made it" without Tom Dowd, but Tom did help put Eric and Duane together.


PhotoRon286 - 5/18/2020 at 12:26 PM

From Dana Dowd on facebook:

quote:
Wow, just wow are we really re-addressing this?!?! The Steve Hoffman Forum and Ed King all in one! hahahaha....... I have so much to say and truly very little. I will let Uncle Butch's words hold true to my fathers defense. And as I said at Uncle Butch's memorial the man was loyal to a fault. The guy who wrote one famous song in the 60's "Peppermint and Incense" and one famous guitar riff in the 70's and never actually worked in the studio with my father has what creditability? He doesn't (god bless his dead pathetic soul). The ONLY time Ed King ever worked in the studio with my father was "Lynyrd Skynyrd 1991" and he wrote him very kind words in thanks to him after (which I have). My assumption is that Ed was friends with Al Kooper who got angry because Al claimed my father said he discovered Lynyrd Skynyrd in my fathers documentary, which was never said. But Al's ego clearly interpreted it that way. Re: Ronnie getting angry with my father was not the case. It is very personal and my father walked away from the Street Survivors project because of a very personal dispute, but he actually saved the project when it was in the mixing stages as they had messed it up. The less personal part my father talks about in his memoirs which will be published in approximately 2022. The personal stuff remains personal. It was taken to Ronnie's and my fathers grave along with a few of us in the know. I will say that the only producer Ronnie's widow Judy thanks at the Skynyrd R&RHOF induction was my father,, so that speak mountains to that.
Bobby Whitlock bashing my father and claiming he and Eric Produced Layla? HAHAHA (NO COMMENT). What do Eric and Duane say? I think I'll trust those accounts.
As far as the Steve Hoffman Forum goes, there is so much Tom Dowd bashing on there it is hysterical how guys who come up in the industry on automated Neve boards and such want to bash the man who started with rotary knobs and direct to disc and at Atlantic has to move office furniture to make a makeshift studio at night until Atlantic finally let him build a proper studio where he conceptualized the linear fader console and racking systems in the late 1950's that are still used as industry standards today. There was minimal sound isolation when most of those records they initially bash were made and the recording technology was 2 and 4 track onto 8 track in makeshift studios with NO automation in most cases. So let them all bash their silly heads around. None of them invented linear faders or knew how to shellac a room to prevent sound bleed let alone cut direct to disk. I will pray for them!


Marley - 5/18/2020 at 02:24 PM

quote:
Stephen the 21st century Allman Brothers created and forged it's own sound and idenity? And irrespective of what the original band and Duane and Dickey did? So to you the Allman Brothers is the 21st century band and the original band was a different, separate unit that just happened to use the same name?

Well what was the deal with pictures of the original band on the screen behind them? And what are they doing playing all those songs from the original band or the Chuck Lamar lineup? Why didn't they created their own just as Butch wanted ( except with Butch it was only Dickey's songs he wanted axed).

I guess that is why Derek and Warren never topped what Dickey and Duane did with those songs on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach. Derek and Warren were trying to forge and create the new band's sound from scratch and it just fell a little short.

Link me a One Way Out, Statesboro Blues, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, You Don't Love Me etc by the 21st century band that tops what is on those live tracks from 1971 and 72. Love to hear it.

And I say that with all due respect to Derek and Warren who are fantastic players.

This isn't respectful even though you threw in a "with all due respect" at the end.


Wayne - 5/18/2020 at 02:42 PM

I guess that is why Derek and Warren never topped what Dickey and Duane did with those songs on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach. Derek and Warren were trying to forge and create the new band's sound from scratch and it just fell a little short.
___________________________________________________________________________ _________________

I really don't understand your reasoning sometimes. I don't believe they were trying to top them, they were carrying the torch in addition to creating some incredible new music that is the ABB sound to some. To me it is all the same. Just different players continuing the sound, my mood dictates which version of the band to listen to but it is all the ABB.


OldDog - 5/18/2020 at 02:51 PM

Marley, Blackey could turn a post about cornflakes into the original ABB being better than anyone and that there is no comparison to later editions. No matter how hard you try to say beauty is in the ear of the beholder he will just continue on his way. He simply can't conceive of anyone disagreeing with him. I have said on more than 1 occasion that IMHO Derek trucks is the best guitar player ever in the ABB. Does that mean he is "better" , no, it just means I like him better. With regard to the material, what seems left out is that both Warren and Derek had their own bands during their ABB tenure and I would say most of their material went to those bands, not ABB. Another point to note was the original guys were in their 60's approx. when the last guys played with them. If it wasn't for the family connection I don't think Derek would have stayed on near as long as he did. I say this as a person who saw the original band twice with one being the seminal Fillmore concert. I love the original band but they require no defense nor a put down of the later editions. The ABB was lucky to get Warren and Derek and they created some beautiful music. I will leave it at that as these " best " arguments leave me cold.


blackey - 5/18/2020 at 04:47 PM

Marley what is not respectful about it? Let me know and I will apologize. Are you saying I'm being disrespectful to Derek and Warren?

I am very fond of Derek and Warren. Just the facts ma'am. Derek and Warren didnt create the twin guitar way of playing those songs the way the Allman Brothers do it...it was Duane and Dickey. And they didn't write ANY of the songs on Fillmore East, Eat A Peach and Brothers and Sisters. Isn't it obivious their job was to RECREATE Duane and Dickey's parts with the freedom of putting their own stamp on the solos? But the structure of those classic songs sounded the same to me whether original band or last lineup.

Derek and Warren didn't top what Duane and Dickey did on the live tracks on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach because Duane and Dickey played perfectly with fire and energy ( especially Duane) and set an awfully high bar on those songs. It would be like Derek and Warren being asked to improve the Mona Lisa if they were painters. It's already perfect. How would one decide where the guitars on Statesboro Blues on Fillmore East be improved? How could the singing Gregg does be improved. How could Humphrey Bogart's performance in Casablanca be improved even if you think Tom Cruise is a better actor??

All they could do is the same Jack Pearson could do. Put their own spin on it and give their interpretation of classic playing on classic songs.

Would a young Dickey and an alive Duane top what Warren did in Gov't Mule or Derek in TTB? No. Or Lowell George in Little Feat? No. It's already done to perfection. Ready to play and listen.

When I say Warren and Derek fell a little short of Duane and Dickey I'm actually talking about Gregg and Dickey. Firing Line, Bag End etc etc are real good. But the last lineup never came up with something that tops Dreams, Whipping Post, Blue Sky, Jessica, Southbound, Ain't Waisting Time No More etc etc. That is what I'm addresing. Not talking licks. That is subjective and as Old Coot pointed out is different to each person. There are people who think Fillmore East and all lineups are boring or too heavy or just not their kind of music. I knew a guy from Minnesota who only liked Guy Lombard and Poka Music and could stand the ABB or J. Gilles.

And I may add Dickey had Seven Turns and Dickey and Warren had True Gravity but Gregg and Dickey didn't top what they wrote back then either to me. And Dickey didn't play as well as Dickey as the band got around the 40th anniversary except some nights he could still bring it pretty good.

Old Coot it's fine you think Derek is the best guitar player ever in the ABB. I like Duane Allman the best for really putting the petal to the metal. Link me a Liz Reed solo from Derek so I can listen then listen to Duane on Liz Reed from Fillmore East. No doubt it would be a close hores race because Derek is that good. Indeed Duane was a huge influence on Derek was he not?


tbomike - 5/18/2020 at 04:58 PM

Why would anyone link you to any solo or performance blackey? Every single one of us KNOWS exactly what you would post no matter what was linked so talk about a waste of time. We all have our opinions. You seem to be the one who confuses your opinion as though they were actual facts.


BrerRabbit - 5/18/2020 at 05:00 PM

quote:
As far as the Steve Hoffman Forum goes, there is so much Tom Dowd bashing on there it is hysterical how guys who come up in the industry on automated Neve boards and such want to bash the man who started with rotary knobs and direct to disc and at Atlantic has to move office furniture to make a makeshift studio at night until Atlantic finally let him build a proper studio where he conceptualized the linear fader console and racking systems in the late 1950's that are still used as industry standards today. There was minimal sound isolation when most of those records they initially bash were made and the recording technology was 2 and 4 track onto 8 track in makeshift studios with NO automation in most cases. So let them all bash their silly heads around. None of them invented linear faders or knew how to shellac a room to prevent sound bleed let alone cut direct to disk. I will pray for them.


Waaaahhooooo! Excellent smackdown, puttin the baby to BED! Dont waste your prayers on em tho, Steve Hoffman Forum was conceded to the underworld years ago.

Layla shmayla, moot point for me - my favorite Tom Dowd work by miles is Dusty In Memphis


Stephen - 5/18/2020 at 05:30 PM

God bless ya blackey for your passion
your posts today are Identical to past years, & in years to come - no different, & that’s a good thing -

Too heavy on the comparing tho - can’t begrudge people their tastes - I dig my 2004 shows, & other new-century ABB, as much as any, & Nobody Knows is the best studio thing they ever did - to my ears

Saying how much you like W & D, then following with “falling short” “not as good” “recreating” & generally dismissing them etc, doesn’t sit well

Respects to you, one of few here who saw the original band


blackey - 5/18/2020 at 06:37 PM

Stephen Old Coot saw the original band including one of the shows used on the Fillmore Album and OC thinks Derek is the best guitar to ever be in the band.

You see when I saw the ABB those times back then they and me were early 20's. I'm 73 now. I had never heard a band play like that or those songs , Dreams, Whipping Post, Elizabeth Reed etc etc before. What I experienced was new and made a huge impression on me. And to me. Duane Allman had so much swagger, drive and energy in his playing. Just set the stage on fire and the other 5 right there with him.

When I went to see other lineups except the Chuck/Lamar Brothers and Sisters lineup, that was a different vibe in many ways using the ABB name...one guitar, two keyboards, different style on bass...took awhile to take to it but Gregg, Dickey, Butch and Jaimoe were still there and it sounded like the ABB in places...but when I heard the Warren/Dickey lineup or the last lineup, I was hearding a recreation of the sound and songs I first experience 50 years ago! So to me it's a recreation of what was new and transformational for me musically and spiritual for me....and it's real good to experience it again by later lineups but it's not as good to me as the lineup I saw 50 years ago several times, a lineup that invented the Allman Brothers and those songs and their way of playing the covers on those albums and shows. No lineup can top the original to me maybe because it was the first for me with the ABB way of playing and vibe. You know no other band has that sound and vibe that stretched from 1969 to 2014. It hit me like a freight train in 1970 and it was new and spiritual.

My position is probably personal and mine only but in no way reflects on Derek and Warren or any of the great musicians who played in this band. The original band invented this band and those classic songs and that is what I fell in love with. But the original band died October 1971 and later lineups recreated and extended the ABB very very well and Derek and Warren brought that wonderful experience and music to a close in 2014 in fine order with reverence to the legacy.

Then we got that vibe again this year with the The Brothers at MSG. Only one original left but Derek, Warren, Chuck, Reese, Duane Trucks, Otiel, Marc knew what to do and they brought to goods to the stage. I thought it brought that special and unique Allman Brothers spiritual experience to my ears. I was extremely impressed and satisfied.

But 1970 and 1971 apparently will never be equaled to me. And it has no disrespect to Derek and Warren at all. I'm sorry it seems that way. They were not in the band in 1970 and that's all it means. And I don't buy the position the last lineup didn't recreated anything, they paved their own path with their own ideas and creation. To me that is BS. How can somebody listen to any subsequent lineup including the last play Jessica, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed, Whipping Post, Dreams and say that??? I heard an ABB play all that in 1970. That is when it was created from scratch. Not in the 21st century which was RECREATING what was written and arranged years ago. At MSQ this year didn't they use the same arrangements on Jessica and Blue Sky from the 1970's??? Well?


JimSheridan - 5/18/2020 at 06:44 PM

Original ABB = great!

Every musician who ever played in this band = great!!!

Leave it at that.


hotlantatim - 5/18/2020 at 07:17 PM

Ed King was stupid in the way he criticized Tom, so I get Dana’s point...but she’s way off that Ed was simply 1 song in the 60s and 1 famous riff in the 70s.


playallnite - 5/19/2020 at 12:30 AM

As long as we are on the topic of Tom Dowd and his work I will say I'm blessed to have seen the band half dozen times in '71 including the 3/11/71 F.E.show ( the added show, w/ horns, etc.) Adrian Barber who produced the first album got a sound out of those guys that has never been duplicated and me personally I'm glad for it.The material on the first album is "heavy" at least heavier than Idlewild and Mr. Barber did justice to all those tunes. I really have no idea what the first album would have been like if Tom Dowd did it., I'm just pleased with Barbers' work which does get overlooked. BTW Barber recorded the Beatles in Hamburg, not the F. E. but historical none the less.


BrerRabbit - 5/19/2020 at 12:41 AM

That first record is scary good


blackey - 5/19/2020 at 12:24 PM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Allman_Brothers_Band_(album)

Interesting info on the first album here. Now some Wikipedia info on any subject could be incorrect.

Apparently they were expecting to work with Tom Dowd but he wasn't available so Atlantic put them with Andrian Barber who has other interesting credits including the Beatles live in 1962, Cream's Goodbye, Velvet Underground's Loaded and Barber plays drums on two tracks. The Rascals Freedom Suite. Buffalo Springfield, Bee Gees and Aerosmith also produced by Barber.

Also I didn't know Tom Dowd remixed the first album for it's 1973 rerelease with Idlewild South as Beginnings. The individual releases of the first two were not successful but Beginnings was earning a gold record for sales in excess of 500,000 copies.

Gregg didn't like his vocals and wished later he had not given in to Barber that they didn't need to be redone. I like Gregg's singing on the first album. Gregg also was spooked by a red light that came on when he began to sing so he unscrewed the bulb.

Dickey, Jaimoe and Berry were inexperienced with a big recording studio but not intimidated.

Surprisingly Duane struggled with his solo on Dreams. Duane finally turned off all the lights and sat alone behind his amp and recorded. Butch said it was so beautiful it brought tears to his eyes and Everytime they played music on that level, it just came out of nowhere, on the spot and unrehearsed.

There is Please Call Home on Idlewild South that was recorded at Regency Studio in New York and produced by Joel Down. They were said to have been in New York but Tom Dowd again was unavailable so they went in in July 1970 without Tom. I use to hear Dickey doesn't play on the track. It's all Duane. Perhaps this is the studio with no windows.

Dowd said the band was determined to build a following and Duane and Gregg were not interested in getting involved with a record compay that wanted to micromanage the studio looking for top 40 hits. Dowd said they didn't want a hit and would be happy with moderate record sales and build a following so they could earn 3 to 4 thousand dollars a show. Dowd said so they were on the road doing over 300 nights in 1970 so they popped in and out to record the second album in Macon, Miami and one track in New York City.


Stephen - 5/19/2020 at 01:10 PM

Very cool info blackey, thx for sharing - yeah to say Beginnings gave the 1st two records a new lease on life would be an understatement - nice essay by Jean Costa w/it


porkchopbob - 5/19/2020 at 01:22 PM

quote:
There is Please Call Home on Idlewild South that was recorded at Regency Studio in New York and produced by Joel Down. They were said to have been in New York but Tom Dowd again was unavailable so they went in in July 1970 without Tom. I use to hear Dickey doesn't play on the track. It's all Duane. Perhaps this is the studio with no windows.


I always thought Gregg was crazy to want to re-record the first album, he sounds great. But I totally understand an artist seeing the warts on their early work.

However, I can't think of a better example of Tom Dowd's expertise as a music engineer than Idlewild South. "Please Call Home" sticks out like a sore thumb, sonically. I'm not sure if it's really bad tape hiss, or if the mic is picking up the vibration of a snare, but it's present through out the track and mars an otherwise great performance. The piano sounds like mud. The rest of the album is nice and clean, can only imagine how much better it would have sounded had Tom Dowd been in the room.


OldDog - 5/19/2020 at 03:25 PM

Blackey you refer to me twice as Old Coot. Are you trying to tell me something? If so I'm not getting it.


hotlantatim - 5/19/2020 at 04:00 PM

But Gregg never sounded better than on Please Call Home.


blackey - 5/19/2020 at 07:17 PM

My apologies Old dog. Born in 1946 and need to get my glasses updated. I thought your handle was oldcoot. Isn't there an Old Coot on this weboard?

Anyway sorry for the oversight and mistake.


rmack - 5/19/2020 at 07:57 PM

The first time I heard "Layla" I was on a hallucinogen and I had just been through having my heart broken. It was a shattering experience. In the years since, I have also thought that it was muddy in the recording and the mix, but I saw the Tom Dowd movie in which Jaimoe said that before Dowd would roll tape, he'd come out of the booth as the band played, stand by each musician, then go into the booth and reproduce as closely as he could the way they sounded in the room. Maybe that's the way the Dominoes sounded - lots of powerful powdered drugs, booze, a disgruntled Whitlock, a future murderer on drums, Clapton in a phase in which he wouldn't stop drinking until the last bottle was empty…and 22 or 23 year-old Duane Allman, as explosive a musician as I ever heard and a very powerful personality, dropped in like a grenade as he played with one of his idols. Maybe that record sounds hazy because a heavy and heady haze was swirling in Criteria Studios and Dowd nailed it.


PhotoRon286 - 5/20/2020 at 12:18 AM

quote:
My apologies Old dog. Born in 1946 and need to get my glasses updated. I thought your handle was oldcoot. Isn't there an Old Coot on this weboard?

Anyway sorry for the oversight and mistake.


I was confused as well.

Yes, there is an oldcoot on this site.

Steve Cogley from kneebraska.

Great guy who I got the pleasure of meeting at the first BoboFest in Pixberg, 7/16/05.


robslob - 5/20/2020 at 02:21 AM

quote:

The first time I heard "Layla" I was on a hallucinogen and I had just been through having my heart broken. It was a shattering experience. In the years since, I have also thought that it was muddy in the recording and the mix, but I saw the Tom Dowd movie in which Jaimoe said that before Dowd would roll tape, he'd come out of the booth as the band played, stand by each musician, then go into the booth and reproduce as closely as he could the way they sounded in the room. Maybe that's the way the Dominoes sounded - lots of powerful powdered drugs, booze, a disgruntled Whitlock, a future murderer on drums, Clapton in a phase in which he wouldn't stop drinking until the last bottle was empty…and 22 or 23 year-old Duane Allman, as explosive a musician as I ever heard and a very powerful personality, dropped in like a grenade as he played with one of his idols. Maybe that record sounds hazy because a heavy and heady haze was swirling in Criteria Studios and Dowd nailed it.


I think that's the most accurate summary of the Layla record anyone has come up with in this thread.

[Edited on 5/20/2020 by robslob]


Marley - 5/20/2020 at 01:59 PM

quote:
Marley what is not respectful about it? Let me know and I will apologize. Are you saying I'm being disrespectful to Derek and Warren?

It's a little disrespectful to them, but it's probably more disrespectful to the people you're talking to. The 'problem' isn't that you like the first lineup best because 99% of fans probably do. It's that every time someone makes a pretty basic observation about the final version of the band, you have to chime in and say that it fell short of the original somehow and wasn't as good and everybody should agree with you. And even if people just say it was a very good band in its own right, you get sarcastic like you just did. Everybody has favorites, but this isn't a fun way to talk about music.
quote:
I am very fond of Derek and Warren.

I have to ask - are you? It feels like every time they're mentioned, especially with Derek, you feel obliged to say someone else was better.
quote:
Derek and Warren didnt create the twin guitar way of playing those songs the way the Allman Brothers do it

We know all this. Everybody knows all this. It's not going to be forgotten if you give us a little credit and assume we know this.


blackey - 5/20/2020 at 03:57 PM

Marley to me Duane Allman had more swagger, drive and engegy than the others in his stage presence and playing. And the band, while several lineups were very good, was never the same after Duane died. But I posted earlier somewhere on here about Gregg saying Jack Pearson was the closest to Duane but it was actually Jaimoe. And I said wonder if Gregg quoting Jaimoe in his book was before Derek joined? Because to me, Derek Trucks is the seconding coming of Duane Allman.

Also yesterday on the Jesse Ed Davis - Statesboro Blues thread, I linked Derek and Warren doing excellent playing on Statesboro Blues.

I disagree with some I've met here that the last lineup is the best and better than the first and that Derek is the best guitar player the band ever had. I say Duane Allman was and Dickey was the most creative and came up with wonderful melodies and songs too that are huge for the band's legacy.

I object to those who say the last lineup was not recreating anything. Had no concern for what the original band did and the last lineup forged it's own sound, it's own music and wasn't copying or recreating anything. Standing on their own feet with their own way, covers and sets. That when they think of the Allman Brothers Band it's the last band which was the lineup that defined the band's sound and outlasted any other band using the ABB name.

I'm not saying you take that position and feel that way but to me I feel the legacy of the band, it's founding and the arrangements and original compositions of the band and the contribution of Duane and Dickey and Berry is being insulted.

To me, one can say those things about Govt Mule and TTB and it is TRUE about those bands. But NOT the Allman Brothers!! The Allman Brothers, it's arrangements, sound and how the old songs are played was created by the original lineup and the Chuck/Lamar band. Even The Brothers at MSG this past March was RECREATING what was original way before. Blue Sky, Jessica, Whipping Post etc followed a pattern, a musical arrangement created long before the last lineup.

I'm betting Derek and Warren agree with me. Derek and Warren are excellent musicians with tremendous talent. Both men were crucial in extending the Allman Brothers well beyond it's experiation date with very good RECREATIONS of what was created years ago.

Maybe I was imagining it but on the old stuff and even on the studio album Hitting The Note, I would hear Derek and Warren including Duane and Dickey licks. On the Fox Box if Warren isn't added licks Dickey often used on Jessica and Blue Sky etc, I would be shocked. Derek, Warren and Otiel were the ones looking for opportunities for Dickey to sit in or come back. Dickey wanted a personal call from Gregg and he and Butch didn't want to be on the same stage again, but I've always felt Dickey knew age and lifestyle had taken it's toll and he couldn't stand toe to toe and play on that level like he could with Derek in 1999, Warren in 1988, 89, 90-94. And Duane Allman 1969-1971. Back then Dickey could deliver the goods with his unique and melodic style.

No sir Marley. I have ears and I've seen Warren and Derek lots of times. They are two of the best gutarists I've seen. Can they play those live tracks on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach better than Duane and Dickey? I say no. I don't see how it could be improved. Those tracks are perfect. Like the Mona Lisa. But they could play those leads !! It would be different not better. I've heard Derek and Warren leave a trail of smoke on the stage. I think they are fantastic!!!

I apologise to anyone who thinks I'm being disrespectful to the last lineup. All the musicians in the last lineup are heros of mine. I was born in 1946 and got hooked on this band in 1970 and it was almost two years later before Duane died. To me, other lineup were carrying on a family tradition not creating it from scratch. If I had gotten bitten by this music in 2004 instead of 1970, maybe the last band would feel like they created this to me too. But if I becane a huge fan in 2004, I imagine I would be curious and buy Fillmore East and Eat A Peach and notice the old stuff is what I hear on classic rock stations.

Again I apologise to anyone who thinks I don't have tremendous respect for Warren and Derek. I've always seen their bands when they are close. I saw Warren in 1992 on his first solo tour and got him to autograph my copy of his new CD. He is a very nice man and a tremendous player and seems to have more songs memorized than anyone.


Stephen - 5/20/2020 at 04:13 PM

quote:
Original ABB = great!

Every musician who ever played in this band = great!!!

Leave it at that.


Marley - 5/20/2020 at 08:16 PM

quote:
I'm not saying you take that position and feel that way but to me I feel the legacy of the band, it's founding and the arrangements and original compositions of the band and the contribution of Duane and Dickey and Berry is being insulted.

I appreciate that you acknowledged that. I don't know if there's anything I can say that would change your mind about this, but it's too bad you feel that way. It's kind of sad because everyone here has enormous respect and appreciation for what they brought to the band and what it did while they were in it. I don't know if you would enjoy this site more if you recognized that no one is insulting or diminishing them, but you might. Respecting later versions of the band and complimenting them for having their own strengths and identities doesn't bring down the first lineup in any way.





To me, one can say those things about Govt Mule and TTB and it is TRUE about those bands. But NOT the Allman Brothers!! The Allman Brothers, it's arrangements, sound and how the old songs are played was created by the original lineup and the Chuck/Lamar band. Even The Brothers at MSG this past March was RECREATING what was original way before. Blue Sky, Jessica, Whipping Post etc followed a pattern, a musical arrangement created long before the last lineup.

I'm betting Derek and Warren agree with me. Derek and Warren are excellent musicians with tremendous talent. Both men were crucial in extending the Allman Brothers well beyond it's experiation date with very good RECREATIONS of what was created years ago.

Maybe I was imagining it but on the old stuff and even on the studio album Hitting The Note, I would hear Derek and Warren including Duane and Dickey licks. On the Fox Box if Warren isn't added licks Dickey often used on Jessica and Blue Sky etc, I would be shocked. Derek, Warren and Otiel were the ones looking for opportunities for Dickey to sit in or come back. Dickey wanted a personal call from Gregg and he and Butch didn't want to be on the same stage again, but I've always felt Dickey knew age and lifestyle had taken it's toll and he couldn't stand toe to toe and play on that level like he could with Derek in 1999, Warren in 1988, 89, 90-94. And Duane Allman 1969-1971. Back then Dickey could deliver the goods with his unique and melodic style.

No sir Marley. I have ears and I've seen Warren and Derek lots of times. They are two of the best gutarists I've seen. Can they play those live tracks on Fillmore East and Eat A Peach better than Duane and Dickey? I say no. I don't see how it could be improved. Those tracks are perfect. Like the Mona Lisa. But they could play those leads !! It would be different not better. I've heard Derek and Warren leave a trail of smoke on the stage. I think they are fantastic!!!

I apologise to anyone who thinks I'm being disrespectful to the last lineup. All the musicians in the last lineup are heros of mine. I was born in 1946 and got hooked on this band in 1970 and it was almost two years later before Duane died. To me, other lineup were carrying on a family tradition not creating it from scratch. If I had gotten bitten by this music in 2004 instead of 1970, maybe the last band would feel like they created this to me too. But if I becane a huge fan in 2004, I imagine I would be curious and buy Fillmore East and Eat A Peach and notice the old stuff is what I hear on classic rock stations.

Again I apologise to anyone who thinks I don't have tremendous respect for Warren and Derek. I've always seen their bands when they are close. I saw Warren in 1992 on his first solo tour and got him to autograph my copy of his new CD. He is a very nice man and a tremendous player and seems to have more songs memorized than anyone.


blackey - 5/20/2020 at 10:19 PM

Sure Marley. Thank you for the advice. I haven't seen the 4 guys I recall specifically here in the last few weeks and 1 in a year or more. To them the Allman Brothers is the last lineup only. After 2001 they forged their own sound, style, songs and identity that is separate from the original band. I felt it was an insult to even Gregg. The last band was still doing Gregg's songs the way the original band arranged and recorded them. And slowly more and more of Dickey's songs were being played the way the band did them years ago. Even old covers such as Statesboro Blues and Done Somebody Wrong are arranged the way the original band arranged them.

There are two classic rock stations I can pick up and they don't play the ABB in heavy rotation but when they, do it's always the original band or Brothers and Sisters. On deep cuts day I have heard Good Clean Fun, Seven Turns, Nobody to Run With and Soulshine. And those aren't by the last lineup.

Yes the last lineup and all the lineups wrote some new songs and added a few new covers but the big guns in this band has always been off albums from the original band and Brothers and Sisters.

The last lineup had great players and Derek Trucks is the second coming of Duane Allman to me and as you know, Duane Allman was Derek's biggest influence. He said just a few years ago in an interview its Duane Allman, Elmore James and some Eastern musicians. Derek also said these days he doesnt listen to other guitar players but horn players for inspiration.

To me its false and a red herring to claim the last lineup paved their own way with their own style and with their own music and sets and are not emulating or recreating anything...
but paving their own musical roadway and identity. That has to be impossible in a band like the ABB or Little Feat or Lynyrd Skynyrd. The big hits had already happened. I'm sure Warren and Derek and the current guys in Little Feat and Skynyrd don't feel they are severed from the original band and are paving their own musical identity albeit using the name of a diffent band from the 1970's!!

My zeal for the original lineup and how it felt when I heard them when I was 24 and 25 years old may have triggered an exaggerated push back from those guys I won't name because they thought I didn't like Derek and Warren. If so I apologise to them. I really like Derek and Warren and they have made it clear they love the original band and Duane Allman too.

Yeah guys I want to put this behind me. More of a misunderstanding I think.


pops42 - 5/20/2020 at 10:55 PM

I liked Ed King. I didnt always agree with him [On Tom Dowd, politics etc] but I will say this, Lynyrd Skynyrd would would have been much lesser of a band without his contributions. He was a fine guitarist, he had a hand in writing: Sweet home Alabama, Swamp Music, The ballad of Curtis Lowe, Sat. Nite Special, Whiskey Rocka Roller, Workin for MCA, Poison Whiskey. now do you think they would have made the big time without those tunes in their cannon?. Ed left the band after a drunken and enraged Ronnie Van Zant held a broken lamp to his throat and threatened to kill him after he broke 2 strings during "Freebird". Ed said he would have come back if Ronnie asked him, and apologized to him, he did not. the rest is history.


BrerRabbit - 5/20/2020 at 11:13 PM

Did king come up with on the hunt?, great song and riff., very Kossoff like


pops42 - 5/21/2020 at 01:24 AM

quote:
Did king come up with on the hunt?, great song and riff., very Kossoff like
I believe Allen Collins took Ed's riff from [MCA] and inverted it for On the hunt. thats what I remember about that tune.


pops42 - 5/21/2020 at 01:43 AM

Ed King had the utmost respect for Duane Allman [huge fan] and he saw The Original ABB @ The Whiskey a Go-Go in L.A. in 1971 a few weeks before Duane's Accident.


rmack - 5/21/2020 at 01:51 AM

quote:
Ed King had the utmost respect for Duane Allman [huge fan] and he saw The Original ABB @ The Whiskey a Go-Go in L.A. in 1971 a few weeks before Duane's Accident.


As did I.


pops42 - 5/21/2020 at 01:52 AM

quote:
quote:
Ed King had the utmost respect for Duane Allman [huge fan] and he saw The Original ABB @ The Whiskey a Go-Go in L.A. in 1971 a few weeks before Duane's Accident.


As did I.


hotlantatim - 5/21/2020 at 04:19 PM

Two of my favorite concerts ever were the back to back nights I saw the Lynyrd Skynyrd Tribute Tour in 1987. Ed, Gary, Leon, Artimus and Billy back together. I give Ed credit because he jumped in and played the Steve Gaines parts and many of the Allen Collins parts from the first album....a talented eam player and he had the chops to pull it off.

Ed helped give Skynyrd that "pickin" strat sound between the Gibsons, much like Gaines did when he joined. Ed also played some memorable slide parts. He was much more than just a famous riff.


blackey - 5/21/2020 at 04:48 PM

Ed King played a Strat everytime I saw Skynyrd. Great playing too. I think Gary was on a Les Paul and Allen was on a Gibson Explorer. I used to know a guy who swore he saw Clapton in concert many years ago and he played a Gibson Explorer.

The only time I saw Steve Gaines, he was playing a Strat. I've seen pictures of Ed and Steve playing Les Pauls.


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