I have follow up point to this, a leader in Isis said if there had not been a torture camp in Iraq, they would not have even united or gotten the Islamic State together. Our torture breeded the contempt which lead to the formation of the Islamic State.
an incredible scoop, the Guardian's Martin Chulov interviewed a senior leader of ISIS— one who came up through the ranks with the group's top leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. The single most interesting quote from the ISIS leader, whom Chulov refers to as Abu Ahmed, is quite disturbing: he credits the group's rise, in large part, to American prison camps during the Iraq war, which he says gave him and other jihadist leaders an invaluable forum to meet one another and to plan their later rise.
Abu Ahmed was imprisoned in a US-run detention center in southern Iraq called Camp Bucca in 2004. That's where he met al-Baghdadi, among others who would later form ISIS. According to Ahmed, Baghdadi managed to trick the US Army into thinking he was a peacemaker, all the while building what would become ISIS right under their noses:
"He was respected very much by the US army," Abu Ahmed said. "If he wanted to visit people in another camp he could, but we couldn’t. And all the while, a new strategy, which he was leading, was rising under their noses, and that was to build the Islamic State. If there was no American prison in Iraq, there would be no IS now. Bucca was a factory. It made us all. It built our ideology."
When they entered the US-run prison, Baghdadi and many of the others were members of small Sunni militia groups. But the organizing space allowed them to unify under the name al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), led at the time by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
"We could never have all got together like this in Baghdad, or anywhere else," Abu Ahmed says, sounding almost grateful to the Americans. "It would have been impossibly dangerous. Here, we were not only safe, but we were only a few hundred meters away from the entire al-Qaeda leadership."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/-sp-isis-the-inside-story?CMP=share_btn_tw
I do think 40+ days of this crosses the line but short term because of an immediate danger....I'm not sure.
I am not knowledgeable enough about interrogation techniques and what works and what doesn't to really say one way or the other.
I do know I would not like to be treated this way and would sing like a canary if I knew it was coming.
The part of the report that was released did not even get into even worse things that go on, ie. they use a surgical scalpel and make slits in the most sensitive part of the man's private parts to cause him terrible pain, and they don't just do that once, they do it more than once. When it starts to heal, they do it again. It was reported that Prisoners from Britain being held in secret rendition locations had experienced this.
They push their fingers thru your eyes trying to blind you, they put your head down a toilet and simulate drowning. In Egypt, they tie them down nude on a metal wired bed called The Bride and they electrocute them while questioning them. (per Ayman al Zawahiri who experienced it first hand). There is even video of him in jail during those times.
In Pakistan they will shove a truncheon up someone's butt filled with hot pepper sauce to violate them and cause them pain, that is one of their tactics. In Israel they will torture people and when they die, they reportedly sell their organs on the black market, (there have been photos by coroners). If they do not die, they end up paralyzed and Mossad gives them a free wheelchair as a parting gift from their correctional facilities.
Brutality is brutality, people either have to say it is okay in certain conditions, or they need to say no it is not acceptable to anyone because it is a crime against humanity.
I do think 40+ days of this crosses the line but short term because of an immediate danger....I'm not sure.
I am not knowledgeable enough about interrogation techniques and what works and what doesn't to really say one way or the other.
I do know I would not like to be treated this way and would sing like a canary if I knew it was coming.
The part of the report that was released did not even get into even worse things that go on, ie. they use a surgical scalpel and make slits in the most sensitive part of the man's private parts to cause him terrible pain, and they don't just do that once, they do it more than once. When it starts to heal, they do it again. It was reported that Prisoners from Britain being held in secret rendition locations had experienced this.
They push their fingers thru your eyes trying to blind you, they put your head down a toilet and simulate drowning. In Egypt, they tie them down nude on a metal wired bed called The Bride and they electrocute them while questioning them. (per Ayman al Zawahiri who experienced it first hand). There is even video of him in jail during those times.
In Pakistan they will shove a truncheon up someone's butt filled with hot pepper sauce to violate them and cause them pain, that is one of their tactics. In Israel they will torture people and when they die, they reportedly sell their organs on the black market, (there have been photos by coroners). If they do not die, they end up paralyzed and Mossad gives them a free wheelchair as a parting gift from their correctional facilities.
Brutality is brutality, people either have to say it is okay in certain conditions, or they need to say no it is not acceptable to anyone because it is a crime against humanity.
New definition of torture. Reading gina's posts.
No one is getting charged and no one is going to jail. This too shall pass and by this time next week everyone will be freaking out about something else.
Congress has what, a 15 per cent approval rating?
96% of the incumbents that earned that rating just got re-elected.
They got punished for shutting down the government!
No one is getting charged and no one is going to jail. This too shall pass and by this time next week everyone will be freaking out about something else.
Congress has what, a 15 per cent approval rating?
96% of the incumbents that earned that rating just got re-elected.
They got punished for being too "extreme."
No one is getting charged and no one is going to jail. This too shall pass and by this time next week everyone will be freaking out about something else.
quote:
Congress has what, a 15 per cent approval rating?96% of the incumbents that earned that rating just got re-elected.
They got punished for being too "extreme."
Do you think Congress has been doing a good job?
No one is getting charged and no one is going to jail. This too shall pass and by this time next week everyone will be freaking out about something else.
Congress has what, a 15 per cent approval rating?
96% of the incumbents that earned that rating just got re-elected.
They got punished for being too "extreme."
Troll
I do think 40+ days of this crosses the line but short term because of an immediate danger....I'm not sure.
I am not knowledgeable enough about interrogation techniques and what works and what doesn't to really say one way or the other.
I do know I would not like to be treated this way and would sing like a canary if I knew it was coming.
The part of the report that was released did not even get into even worse things that go on, ie. they use a surgical scalpel and make slits in the most sensitive part of the man's private parts to cause him terrible pain, and they don't just do that once, they do it more than once. When it starts to heal, they do it again. It was reported that Prisoners from Britain being held in secret rendition locations had experienced this.
They push their fingers thru your eyes trying to blind you, they put your head down a toilet and simulate drowning. In Egypt, they tie them down nude on a metal wired bed called The Bride and they electrocute them while questioning them. (per Ayman al Zawahiri who experienced it first hand). There is even video of him in jail during those times.
In Pakistan they will shove a truncheon up someone's butt filled with hot pepper sauce to violate them and cause them pain, that is one of their tactics. In Israel they will torture people and when they die, they reportedly sell their organs on the black market, (there have been photos by coroners). If they do not die, they end up paralyzed and Mossad gives them a free wheelchair as a parting gift from their correctional facilities.
Brutality is brutality, people either have to say it is okay in certain conditions, or they need to say no it is not acceptable to anyone because it is a crime against humanity.
geez gina...really?
well at least there's a parting gift.
Merry Christmas!!!
Mark Fallon served as an interrogator for more than 30 years, including as a Naval Criminal Investigative Service special agent and within the Department of Homeland Security, as the assistant director for training of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. He says torture to extract information does not work, and they all knew they did not get any intelligence information that was useful from their tactics used in Guantanamo.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/torture-report-dick-cheney-110306.html#ixzz3Lu4QQ6in
“Like many Americans, I was shocked and disgusted by the Senate Intelligence Committee’s publication of a torture report today,” Cheney said in a prepared statement. “The transparency and honesty found in this report represent a gross violation of our nation’s values.” “The publication of torture reports is a crime against all of us,” he added. “Not just those of us who have tortured in the past, but every one of us who might want to torture in the future.” Saying that the Senate’s “horrifying publication” had inspired him to act, he vowed, “As long as I have air to breathe, I will do everything in my power to wipe out the scourge of torture reports from the face of the Earth.” Cheney concluded his statement by calling for an international conference on the issue of torture reports. “I ask all the great nations of the world to stand up, expose the horrible practice of publishing torture reports, and say, ‘This is not who we are,’ ” Cheney said.
REMARKS: So, in his verion of America, nobody has a right to know that governmental officials and trained abusers are torturing people. That's his solution. Brutality and torture are fine, but letting people find out about it isn't.
[Edited on 12/14/2014 by gina]
why does all this need to be made public? why do these politicians, Feinstein in particular, have to parade themselves and this report and wave it in the publics face? all embassys are on high alert. what purpose does it serve? do I really need to know this information? that should be a matter between the WH and the CIA and the military; strictly an in house affair. All it did was piss off al Qaeda. Certain things I just don't need to know. It's like we're saying, "yes, al Qaeda, we tortured, unjustly, your kin. We're sorry". I think it's idiotic.
We are a democracy. This was done "in our name". The taxpayers paid for this. The people were systematically lied to by the CIA and the Bush administration. Bush himself, nearly two years after he knew the facts said the USA does not torture.
Our actions are a direct violation of the Geneva Conventions. The people responsible are war criminals. That is a fact.
Why do you not want to know? This is allegedly a government by the People, for the People.
Why do you want to keep trusting a government and a CIA that systematically manipulates the Press into feeding the people lies?
You think Feinstein is the bad guy in all this? That seems a really warped take away.
okay...so now you know. Now what? What are you (not you, us) going to do with this info? Chastise the CIA? Bush? Feel bad that we aren't the ethically all American people we say we are? I just don't see the point in making this a huge...and public issue. I have no real problem with Feinstein being the point person on this, it could've been Mickey Mouse for all I care. And we all know this will pass, here and nationally after a while until something else comes along to divert our short attention spans. This will be page 2 in a week and we still won't trust the government.
again, what do you want to do about this?
The only way to stop it and make sure it doesn't happen again is to know about it.
right. That's why my ex girlfriends are ex girlfriends. They just kept doing it, as much as I often knew they were lying. Knowing about it changes or fixes nothing and no one.
again, what are we, as American citizens, supposed to do with this information? ok, so we know. Now what? March to Crawford, Tx and demand W's head? Picket the CIA?
One of the things Bush Jr. did before leaving office was to sign an executive order that he and all members of his administration were IMMUNE to any prosecution for any war crimes going back to 9.11.01. Additionally,
http://warisacrime.org/content/obama-doj-asks-court-grant-immunity-george-w-bush-iraq-war
SAN FRANCISCO, Calif., (Aug. 20, 2013) — In court papers filed today (PDF), the United States Department of Justice requested that George W. Bush, Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice and Paul Wolfowitz be granted procedural immunity in a case alleging that they planned and waged the Iraq War in violation of international law.
Plaintiff Sundus Shaker Saleh, an Iraqi single mother and refugee now living in Jordan, filed a complaint in March 2013 in San Francisco federal court alleging that the planning and waging of the war constituted a “crime of aggression” against Iraq, a legal theory that was used by the Nuremberg Tribunal to convict Nazi war criminals after World War II. "The DOJ claims that in planning and waging the Iraq War, ex-President Bush and key members of his Administration were acting within the legitimate scope of their employment and are thus immune from suit,” chief counsel Inder Comar of Comar Law said.
The “Westfall Act certification,” submitted pursuant to the Westfall Act of 1988, permits the Attorney General, at his or her discretion, to substitute the United States as the defendant and essentially grant absolute immunity to government employees for actions taken within the scope of their employment.
In her lawsuit, Saleh alleges that:
-- Richard Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz began planning the Iraq War in 1998 through their involvement with the “Project for the New American Century,” a Washington DC non-profit that advocated for the military overthrow of Saddam Hussein.
-- Once they came to power, Saleh alleges that Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz convinced other Bush officials to invade Iraq by using 9/11 as an excuse to mislead and scare the American public into supporting a war. -- Finally, she claims that the United States failed to obtain United Nations approval prior to the invasion, rendering the invasion illegal and an act of impermissible aggression.
REMARKS:
As to what we are supposed to do with the information is demand that a government of the people, for the people and by the people do not ALLOW torture to continue. The United Nations recognizes that the US as a signatory to a treaty against torture has VIOLATED it, and somebody has to be held responsible for that. Am I naïve enough to think if we legislate against torture it will stop? Probably not in the foreseeable future, but we should be complacent and say just let them do whatever they want.
[Edited on 12/14/2014 by gina]
Mark Fallon served as an interrogator for more than 30 years, including as a Naval Criminal Investigative Service special agent and within the Department of Homeland Security, as the assistant director for training of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. He says torture to extract information does not work, and they all knew they did not get any intelligence information that was useful from their tactics used in Guantanamo.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/torture-report-dick-cheney-110306.html#ixzz3Lu4QQ6in
“Like many Americans, I was shocked and disgusted by the Senate Intelligence Committee’s publication of a torture report today,” Cheney said in a prepared statement. “The transparency and honesty found in this report represent a gross violation of our nation’s values.” “The publication of torture reports is a crime against all of us,” he added. “Not just those of us who have tortured in the past, but every one of us who might want to torture in the future.” Saying that the Senate’s “horrifying publication” had inspired him to act, he vowed, “As long as I have air to breathe, I will do everything in my power to wipe out the scourge of torture reports from the face of the Earth.” Cheney concluded his statement by calling for an international conference on the issue of torture reports. “I ask all the great nations of the world to stand up, expose the horrible practice of publishing torture reports, and say, ‘This is not who we are,’ ” Cheney said.
REMARKS: So, in his verion of America, nobody has a right to know that governmental officials and trained abusers are torturing people. That's his solution. Brutality and torture are fine, but letting people find out about it isn't.
[Edited on 12/14/2014 by gina]
Eh Gina, that was a reprint of a satire column in the New Yorker Magazine. I have no doubt he was thinking it after he found out about the report being published but Cheney never said the things in your post. It was humour. 😛
Dick Cheney appeared on Meet the Press
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/cheney-torture-report-innocent-detainee
Host Chuck Todd asked Cheney to respond to the Senate Intelligence Committee report's account that one detainee was "chained to the wall of a cell, doused with water, froze to death in CIA custody." "And it turned out it was a case of mistaken identity," Todd said.
Todd pressed Cheney, asking if he was okay with the fact that about 25 percent of the detainees interrogated were actually innocent. "I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. And our objective is to get the guys who did 9/11 and it is to avoid another attack against the United States," Cheney responded.
REMARKS: Who planted the bombs in the World Trade Center? The bombs that the FDNY, NYPD felt and experienced while trying to save lives? Couldn't have been the Arabs, they did not have access.
Mark Fallon served as an interrogator for more than 30 years, including as a Naval Criminal Investigative Service special agent and within the Department of Homeland Security, as the assistant director for training of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. He says torture to extract information does not work, and they all knew they did not get any intelligence information that was useful from their tactics used in Guantanamo.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/torture-report-dick-cheney-110306.html#ixzz3Lu4QQ6in
“Like many Americans, I was shocked and disgusted by the Senate Intelligence Committee’s publication of a torture report today,” Cheney said in a prepared statement. “The transparency and honesty found in this report represent a gross violation of our nation’s values.” “The publication of torture reports is a crime against all of us,” he added. “Not just those of us who have tortured in the past, but every one of us who might want to torture in the future.” Saying that the Senate’s “horrifying publication” had inspired him to act, he vowed, “As long as I have air to breathe, I will do everything in my power to wipe out the scourge of torture reports from the face of the Earth.” Cheney concluded his statement by calling for an international conference on the issue of torture reports. “I ask all the great nations of the world to stand up, expose the horrible practice of publishing torture reports, and say, ‘This is not who we are,’ ” Cheney said.
REMARKS: So, in his verion of America, nobody has a right to know that governmental officials and trained abusers are torturing people. That's his solution. Brutality and torture are fine, but letting people find out about it isn't.
Eh Gina, that was a reprint of a satire column in the New Yorker Magazine. I have no doubt he was thinking it after he found out about the report being published but Cheney never said the things in your post. It was humour. 😛
These issues are not satire, he wants an executive order to be implemented to stop the release of any future reports. Nobody was prosecuted for the tortrures at Abu Ghraib, the military thought it was great fun, the public saw the pictures. What will be done now that everybody knows what went on at Gitmo? Will be people who were cleared for release but are still there, ever get out?
[Edited on 12/14/2014 by gina]
Mark Fallon served as an interrogator for more than 30 years, including as a Naval Criminal Investigative Service special agent and within the Department of Homeland Security, as the assistant director for training of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. He says torture to extract information does not work, and they all knew they did not get any intelligence information that was useful from their tactics used in Guantanamo.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/torture-report-dick-cheney-110306.html#ixzz3Lu4QQ6in
“Like many Americans, I was shocked and disgusted by the Senate Intelligence Committee’s publication of a torture report today,” Cheney said in a prepared statement. “The transparency and honesty found in this report represent a gross violation of our nation’s values.” “The publication of torture reports is a crime against all of us,” he added. “Not just those of us who have tortured in the past, but every one of us who might want to torture in the future.” Saying that the Senate’s “horrifying publication” had inspired him to act, he vowed, “As long as I have air to breathe, I will do everything in my power to wipe out the scourge of torture reports from the face of the Earth.” Cheney concluded his statement by calling for an international conference on the issue of torture reports. “I ask all the great nations of the world to stand up, expose the horrible practice of publishing torture reports, and say, ‘This is not who we are,’ ” Cheney said.
REMARKS: So, in his verion of America, nobody has a right to know that governmental officials and trained abusers are torturing people. That's his solution. Brutality and torture are fine, but letting people find out about it isn't.
Eh Gina, that was a reprint of a satire column in the New Yorker Magazine. I have no doubt he was thinking it after he found out about the report being published but Cheney never said the things in your post. It was humour. 😛
These issues are not satire, he wants an executive order to be implemented to stop the release of any future reports. Nobody was prosecuted for the tortrures at Abu Ghraib, the military thought it was great fun, the public saw the pictures. What will be done now that everybody knows what went on at Gitmo? Will be people who were cleared for release but are still there, ever get out?
[Edited on 12/14/2014 by gina]
Gina, the report you posted was a New Yorker's Magazine satire piece. Cheney did not really say the things in the article you posted it was a humour piece. The subject may be serious but the article was not. You really need to read the stuff you post before you post it.
Here is the original New Yorker article written by a comedian. Take a look at the link. Notice it says "humor". Also you can get the authors satire e-mailed to you at the bottom of the article. It is "news satire" that means it is not a real story. 😛
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/cheney-calls-international-ban-torture-reports
[Edited on 12/14/2014 by Bill_Graham]
[Edited on 12/14/2014 by Bill_Graham]
Gina, Here is another satire article written by the same author in the New Yorker. Now I would not put anything past Dick Cheney but do you really believe this absurd article is real?
The interest, outrage, lack of outrage, acceptance, support of... American sponsored torture on this site lasted a couple of days.
Great.
Gina, Here is another satire article written by the same author in the New Yorker. Now I would not put anything past Dick Cheney but do you really believe this absurd article is real?
Well, no not the way he puts it.
Megyn Kelly from Fox News on her show The Kelly Report inrterviews James Miller, one of the torturers. Tonight is the second part of the interview. Last night's was interesting, the guy explained it was just going to work and doing his job. He also said he feels like Senate democrats have a Fatwa on him to make him be the fall guy for any negative public outcry. He said the Senate Intelligence Committee never asked him anything about the tortures, and recently there have been death threats against him. A police officer recently called him and told him he had to leave his house at that moment, so he feels there is political payback against him.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/James-Mitchell-interrogation-methods/2014/12/16/id/613320/
http://www.foxnews.com/shows/the-kelly-file.html
[Edited on 12/16/2014 by gina]
Senate Democrats have a Fatwa.
you've finally snapped.
Senate Democrats have a Fatwa.
you've finally snapped.
That's not my perception, that's the torturer, who said that is what he feels like. Watch his interview with Megyn Kelly, links were put up. I wonder if he endured waterboarding just to know how it feels.
I watched the interview.
He never said "Fatwa".
you did.
I watched the interview.
He never said "Fatwa".
you did.
I watched the interview and YES he did in part one.
I watched the interview.
He never said "Fatwa".
you did.
I watched the interview and YES he did in part one.
This is the problem. You don't understand what you hear.
I watched the interview.
He never said "Fatwa".
you did.
I watched the interview and YES he did in part one.
ok...I watched and listened intensely to all 12 minutes again and I never heard him say "Fatwa".
could you please tell me exactly where in Part 1 he says it? Maybe I missed it.
I watched the interview.
He never said "Fatwa".
you did.
I watched the interview and YES he did in part one.
ok...I watched and listened intensely to all 12 minutes again and I never heard him say "Fatwa".
could you please tell me exactly where in Part 1 he says it? Maybe I missed it.
I watched the original interview which I think was 15 minutes not 12, but I will look into it and get back to ya.
I watched the interview.
He never said "Fatwa".
you did.
I watched the interview and YES he did in part one.
ok...I watched and listened intensely to all 12 minutes again and I never heard him say "Fatwa".
could you please tell me exactly where in Part 1 he says it? Maybe I missed it.
I watched the original interview which I think was 15 minutes not 12, but I will look into it and get back to ya.
and...? Did you find where the Democrats in the US Senate have a fatwa?
He said he felt like they did.
He said he felt like they did.
he said he felt like they had a fatwa against him?
he used the word "fatwa"?
Yes Piacere he did in the live broadcast. And Megyn discussed it with him. And here's a little something for ya!
Published on Jan 6, 2015
CIA Inspector General David Buckley is stepping down to pursue a career in the private sector. The agency’s top internal watchdog was instrumental in revealing the spy organizations potentially illegal accessing of Senate computers while it was investigating CIA torture practices, but officials claim this has no link to his sudden departure. RT’s Gayane Chichakyan has more from Washington.
in the live broadcast he used the word "fatwa"?
so he said, "The Democrats in the US Senate have a fatwa against me".
I'm calling you on this. I never heard it.
prove it and I'll let it go.
