ATM's, industrial robots, pay-at-the-pump, self checkout, etc., etc. Machines never call in sick, don't take bathroom breaks, and don't demand $15 an hour.

Over the past couple of years we've had several interesting discussions about workers becoming obsolete because of advances in technology and machines. I heard a story on the radio last week about how economies must prepare for an age of idol populations - including how to feed, shelter and clothe people for free. Paying people to do nothing.

Most people hear this and immediately think of free-loaders who just don't want to get off their a$$es and work. But the fact is, more and more jobs and functions that have traditionally been performed by people are now being done by machines. In many situations, people are basically being phased out.

The idea is like something out of Alvin Toffler or George Orwell.

Think about the far-reaching effects of a world where people - for the most part are not required to produce goods and services. When the governments begin paying most of the populations for doing nothing - they become our parents. They'll be able to dictate every facet of our lives. The old, "as long as you're living under my roof ..." thing.

Does this scare you?

Think about the far-reaching effects of a world where people - for the most part are not required to produce goods and services. When the governments begin paying most of the populations for doing nothing - they become our parents. They'll be able to dictate every facet of our lives. The old, "as long as you're living under my roof ..." thing.

Does this scare you?

Similarly, with government control of the health care system virtually any human activity can be regulated under the guise of controlling health care costs.

As far as the minimum wage goes, why not $45/hr? No....$60/hr.

As far as the McDonalds thing goes, I predicted something like this (self-serve kiosk) back when the workers started demanding $15 an hour. If they (or any company) are forced to pay higher wages, they'll seek ways to produce the same goods (or services) using fewer workers. If they could figure out how to have your burger prepared in Indonesia and put it in your hands before it gets cold ...

Don't you think that if no one has jobs no one will buy crappy hamburgers?

I don't know how people eat that gray matter anyway. I've not eaten any fast food in years.

Similarly, with government control of the health care system virtually any human activity can be regulated under the guise of controlling health care costs.

Are you talking about Canada?

It has been said that the $15 minimum wage would increase the cost of a Big Mac $0.17.

The Tribune today had an article about all the CEO's in the Chicago area - they are now ranking each company by how many times more a CEO makes than an average worker. Some of them are 200-400 times what an average worker makes. Makes it hard to get worked up about this $15 thing...if more people are making a good wage, they will buy more things.... instead of just hoarding cash like the top 1 percent are doing .........

Similarly, with government control of the health care system virtually any human activity can be regulated under the guise of controlling health care costs.

Are you talking about Canada?

It has been said that the $15 minimum wage would increase the cost of a Big Mac $0.17.

The Tribune today had an article about all the CEO's in the Chicago area - they are now ranking each company by how many times more a CEO makes than an average worker. Some of them are 200-400 times what an average worker makes. Makes it hard to get worked up about this $15 thing...if more people are making a good wage, they will buy more things.... instead of just hoarding cash like the top 1 percent are doing .........

Like it or not, labor is a commodity (not the individuals involved, but the overall value of their effort economically).

As a commodity, the normal economic equation of supply and demand applies. The more labor is readily available, the less they will make.

As economic conditions have altered over time, making the USA no longer the top location for global investment in productive activities, opportunities have lessened. Less opportunity means more available labor, resulting in stagnant or lower wages.

I found out something two weeks ago that was shocking to me - the company I currently work for hasn't had to change their entry-level salary for sales people since 2003. To a real degree, they get what they pay for, but they seem fine with that (and with 20-30% turnover every year). These are tasks that automation can not replace, unlike some manufacturing processes

So if the goal is to have the lower and middle classes make more, it has to be achieved by increasing the opportunity level to cause a higher demand for labor. Its the only way that is economically viable.

In 1976, I was tired of being a broke college student and took a year leave of absence. Living in Rochester, NY at the time, I did what everyone there did - got a job at Eastman Kodak. I worked 2nd shift, and was paid $18/hr. I was working in one of their factories, printing nameplates on aluminum sheets that would get finished on punch presses. I tell that story to younger co-workers now to make the point of just how stagnant wages have become, as many would consider a $18/hr salary today - 39 years later - to be a decent wage. Mighty sad indeed.

FYI - I don't mean to take sides - with McDonalds or anybody else. Just pointing out the obvious and inevitable.

I've told this one before - a friend of mine visited an auto plant in Alabama. It's been a while, but he told me it takes something like 4 hours to build the car and only a handful of actual workers are involved. The question arises - how much automation is too much automation? One day, manual labor jobs might be at a premium. Imagine living in a world where a garbage collector's (sanitation engineer) or landscaper's (the guy doing the actual digging) job is coveted.

Union wage demands (a whole separate argument here) can be blamed for the disappearance of many manufacturing jobs (especially here in the south). Automation - like those self-serve burger kiosks could easily lead to the reduction of many non-skilled jobs.

Well Rusty, we are hearing the opposite - it's the union wages in Ilinois that are making car makers open their plants in the south - where there are many 'right to work' states that make it hard for unions to exist.

Our new republican governor is trying to get right to work rules implemented in Illinois, against a heavy democratic house and senate - but I don't get it - to Fuji's point, how does bringing in lower paid jobs actually help?

Oh, and by the way, I stopped at a McDonald's in a small town for breakfast the other day - the place was packed, the drive thru was backed up 12 cars deep, and there were an awful lot of people working to keep up with the demand..............

[Edited on 8/10/2015 by Sang]

Oh, and by the way, I stopped at a McDonald's in a small town for breakfast the other day

How did you feel the next day?

Bacon egg and cheese biscuit isn't too bad - but I get only breakfast there about 5 times a year - even when both my boys were working there.........

Personally I will boycott any establishment who switch from real servers to kiosks. If they wanna be cheap bastards then they can lose my business and I hope many others follow.

Having said that I think maybe $15 is a little bit much for anywhere other than in big cities like NYC where the cost of living is through the roof. $15 might be fair for them but in more rural areas where the cost of living isn't so high minimum wage should be maybe $12 or $11 per hour. They can't pay everyone living everywhere the same $15 per hour because $15 an hour is worth less for someone working and living in a high cost of living area like a big city where they have to pay for things like mass transit just to get to work and housing, gas , and food prices are through the roof.

The US Postal Service is a good example. They wonder why they are always in the red but it is simple to see. They pay all employees the same pay rate regardless of where they live and the cost of living there. Those living in rural areas with low cost of living have it made making the same salary as someone living in a place like NYC or Long Island where I live. It is like they are making a third more for doing the same job!!! If they would just adjust salaries to cost of living in different areas they would be in the black every year. It is just stupid to pay people from different cost of living areas the same exact salaries for the same jobs.

[Edited on 8/11/2015 by sixty8]

[Edited on 8/11/2015 by sixty8]

[Edited on 8/14/2015 by sixty8]

Exactly, that's why the federal minimum wage doesn't work on a nationwide basis.

http://www.universallivingwage.com/

Go to the State/City tab on the left click on that, then scroll down, find your state and see what a living wage is for different counties/towns in your state. Then tell your state Senators, Assemblymen to get with the program and raise the wages in your state. $15 per hour isn't a living wage in NYC or the metro area, the living wage is more like $22 per hour. But the state thinks that $9 or 10 would be enough.

With the availability of technology and innovations, companies like McDonald's might end up paying $15 - $22 per hour ... just to a smaller workforce. A few more people making more money - a few more out of a job altogether. It could happen.

And I'm not trying to be the rain on the picnic - just stating the obvious.

[Edited on 8/14/2015 by alloak41]

This may appear to be a big concession on the part of McDonalds. Don't get duped. Fact is, the total amount they'll wind up spending on labor won't change all that much, if at all.