In the wake of the news that the pilot crashed the plane on purpose, should we require that they undergo periodic psychological evaluations to enhance our safety on flights?
I imagine some will say that pilots should not be burdened with that kind of testing, as it violates rights, and we should solve it with more marshalls on planes, and equip all passengers with guns and battering rams to bust down the cockpit door if this ever happens again. And if other pilots copycat, then so be it. That's the price of freedom.
Of course, I say test the ever-loving sh*t out of them. If you don't like, then don't be a pilot.
If it were a pilot who wanted to own a gun, he would be on the couch all the time...
In the wake of the news that the pilot crashed the plane on purpose, should we require that they undergo periodic psychological evaluations to enhance our safety on flights?
That pilot just passed a periodic review.
in all seriousness.....what kind of review was it? I haven't read that yet. Is it the same type of testing that our police departments use on recruits, or something similar?
in all seriousness.....what kind of review was it? I haven't read that yet. Is it the same type of testing that our police departments use on recruits, or something similar?
I just heard it was some kind of psych test.
It's gotten to where flying is like having surgery or playing Russian Roulette. When you get on board that plane, you are surrendering everything to the guy in the left seat. For the first time in my life, I am having second thoughts about air travel.
Flights within and to/from the US require no fewer than 2 people in the cockpit at any one time. While not foolproof so to speak, it does provide a layer of redundancy (not sure if that is the right word, but you know what I mean) and is a key difference compared to the flight that was just brought down where such a rule was not in place.
in all seriousness.....what kind of review was it? I haven't read that yet. Is it the same type of testing that our police departments use on recruits, or something similar?
A person with depression can outwit a psych test if he really wanted to. I doubt that any psych exam would have found out anything about his illness.
I would think once you are in a position to transport the general public,(pilot,bus driver,subway etc..) you should be" burdened" with such reviews..
A person with depression can outwit a psych test if he really wanted to. I doubt that any psych exam would have found out anything about his illness.
True, the tests wouldn't catch everyone, but I do believe it could catch some that could be a potential danger. I've told this story here before, but I know a woman who is legitimately bipolar on a serious level. I've seen her get violent....punch and attack others, trashing convenient stores until security throws her out, screaming at the top of her lungs all day long, etc....just a total mess. She wanted to be a cop, because the thought of carrying a gun and busting people satisfied her rage. NYC, Philly, and Baltimore police departments all denied her for the same reason.....she was not fit to be a cop because she couldn't pass their psychological exams. After seeing all that, I have a lot of faith in those tests, and very happy to hear our police conduct them on recruits.
[Edited on 3/27/2015 by BoytonBrother]
A person with depression can outwit a psych test if he really wanted to. I doubt that any psych exam would have found out anything about his illness.
True, the tests wouldn't catch everyone, but I do believe it could catch some that could be a potential danger. I've told this story here before, but I know a woman who is legitimately bipolar on a serious level. I've seen her get violent....punch and attack others, trashing convenient stores until security throws her out, screaming at the top of her lungs all day long, etc....just a total mess. She wanted to be a cop, because the thought of carrying a gun and busting people satisfied her rage. NYC, Philly, and Baltimore police departments all denied her for the same reason.....she was not fit to be a cop because she couldn't pass their psychological exams. After seeing all that, I have a lot of faith in those tests, and very happy to hear our police conduct them on recruits.
[Edited on 3/27/2015 by BoytonBrother]
I understand what you are saying, but that was a case that seemed to be easy to spot. Depression is something else. Like many mass killers, the co-pilot was described as being quiet and really didn't show any outward signs of anything that would lead someone to conclude that he was a danger to others. people who suffer from depression are generally very inward directed and do not appear to be a danger to others. To take someone who is quiet and assume he is a danger would lead to some introverted people being diagnosed with an illness that they do not have. Depression is a very serious mental illness that is difficult to spot in someone. Unless the person seeks help, he may never be discovered.
Seems like he was diagnosed by a doctor as "unfit to work", which he hid from the airline. Had the airlines done the testing themselves, maybe this wouldn't have happened. I don't know. I admit that it may not be a practical solution, but man, I wish we could do something.
In the wake of the news that the pilot crashed the plane on purpose, should we require that they undergo periodic psychological evaluations to enhance our safety on flights?
That pilot just passed a periodic review.
While almost all pilots undergo a full medical examination once or twice a year, most of it is physiological: height, weight, heart, blood, urine, eyesight. Technical ability is tested on a simulator.
The psychological component of most airline medicals consists of a few “general questions” about aircrews’ mood, family relations, sleep patterns and alcohol use, and whether they have suffered any recent episodes of depression or suicidal feelings.
An LBA spokesman said the widely reported “special regular medical examination” (SIC) mark on Lubitz’s file could pertain to any medical problem.
AND
On Thursday, Lufthansa’s chief executive, Carsten Spohr, revealed that Lubitz had interrupted his training in 2009, but refused to say why. He would only say that Lubitz had eventually been cleared to return to work, after passing fitness and psychological tests.
On Friday, the German newspaper Bild said the Lufthansa flight school in Phoenix, Arizona, had designated Lubitz at the time as “not suitable for flying”.
The newspaper said he spent 18 months receiving psychiatric treatment. He was forced to repeat his flying classes several times because of depression, before he successfully finished his training. In 2009 he was diagnosed with a “severe depressive episode”, Bild reported. Süddeutsche Zeitung said the sicknote in question was written by a psychiatrist in Rhineland
REMARKS: He was declared from the flight school "not suitable for flying" had to repeat some of his simulation exercises, was seeing a psychiatrist in Rhineland, even in his Lufthansa file it had "special medical regular exam". Nobody connected all those things because each person/unit involved only did their part of it.
Anyone who has public lives/safety in their charge must NOT have depressive/homicidal/suicidal potential. People will say depressed people are controlled with medication so they can function in jobs, okay, but those jobs should not include positions where they have hands on direct responsibility for the safety and lives of others. They should be excluded from jobs such as firefighters, police officers, physicians, nurses, pilots, bus, train, limo drivers.
This is a perfect case in point. The guy did his job but when his emotional state deteriorated, the lives of the passengers were in jeopardy and ultimately were taken because of his emotional problems. He should not have been able to be a pilot due to having depression as a disease.
Depression is not just sadness, it is a neurochemical disorder, effecting their perceptions, thought procesesses etc. They have anger and are not able to control their emotions. Every time I work and find people with migraines, I know they too have a neurochemical disorder, it is not just that they get headaches. Most of them have depression.
It is easy to mis-label people, all I know is I don't want people with repressed/sometimes uncontrollable anger around me. The Dr.'s just give them drugs to make them feel better, they may need the drugs for awhile or forever but they also need to develop coping skills, better behavior management, decision making skills and taking responsibility for those choices. In short they need to be emotionally empowered and fully understand the consequences of their actions. They need to be in long term therapy. They most definitely should not be flying any planes.
[Edited on 3/28/2015 by gina]
[Edited on 3/28/2015 by gina]
in all seriousness.....what kind of review was it? I haven't read that yet. Is it the same type of testing that our police departments use on recruits, or something similar?
A person with depression can outwit a psych test if he really wanted to. I doubt that any psych exam would have found out anything about his illness.
Better exams written by psychoanalysts should be implemented, not just some Mickey Mouse 4 question generic test. They should get a a full comprehensive exam, 4 times a year, not just to focus on seasonal affective disorders, but also life changes that can precipitate their problems. Why do so many people die after holidays? Stress. They get heart attacks and die. To give the tests the pilots receive only once a year is not enough to factor in life changes that can occur in their lives in between those exams. Even if things are going well in their lives, how many of them have adjustable rate mortgages? If the economy gets worse, things get financially worse for them = more stress. If someone in their family gets sick, needs surgery etc. If they live in an area with weather problems, and a season is particularly horrible (we had 50 inches of snow here this year, double the normal amount), anything can impact the pilots. Tests 4X a year is a good thing.
[Edited on 3/28/2015 by gina]
Depressed people, even suicidally depressed people don't typically decide to take 150 with them. Something else was going on.
There's plenty of evidence out there that he was diagnosed by a doctor as mentally ill, and unfit to work. If we had laws in place that allowed our doctors to communicate potential dangers to authorities, then this could've been avoided. If the airline decided to do the same testing as his doctors, this could've been avoided.
For general psychological services, I do support that right to privacy between the patient and doctor. However, if you choose a certain occupation that can affect the safety of citizens, like a pilot or a cop, then maybe that right should be waived.
Depressed people, even suicidally depressed people don't typically decide to take 150 with them. Something else was going on.
Agreed 100%. It goes way beyond depression. Truly depressed people may want to kill themselves, but when you strategically wait to do it when you have 150 people on board, then it's beyond that for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if they find some link between the pilot and some radical group.
When I flew JetBlue home from Florida yesterday, the co-pilot stood up front and got on the mic to introduce himself and the pilot, telling us about their flight experience as well as the JetBlue policy since 9/11 (which as I said earlier, applies to all flights to/from/within the US) of never leaving just one person in the cockpit...if the pilot or co-pilot has to use the bathroom, a flight attendant will go into the cockpit until he returns. At the end he referenced the crash in France and that they wanted everyone to feel safe/comfortable about flying with them. Probably wasn't necessary for him to say all that, but I thought it was a nice touch.
As an aside, the co-pilot said he prior to flying for JetBlue he was a Marine for 20 years and for 3 years during the Bush 43 admin he was the pilot of Marine One (POTUS's helo). After that I wasn't really worried (not that I was to begin with).
[Edited on 3/30/2015 by gondicar]
Depressed people, even suicidally depressed people don't typically decide to take 150 with them. Something else was going on.
Someone told me they read that the ex girlfriend was pregnant with his kid, he was worried about losing his eyesight and then his job. IF those things are true, it could have been more than he could deal with at the time. But as another poster said, to take down a plane full of people with you is really not justifiable.
we should, and while we are at it, we should find out what their views are on gay marriage and abortion. Oh, and how many bullets are enough
Liberal inspired programs start with good intentions and spiral horribly out of control (i.e., Obamacare)
People who oppose gay marriage aren't prone to killing themselves and 150 other innocent people. Care to make an intelligent comment about it?
You make my point on the idiocy of some of these government policies enacted to "protect us".
For example, Obamacare forms wanted to know how many guns the applicant owned.
How does that have anything to do with getting sick or listing pre-existing conditions?
[Edited on 3/31/2015 by OriginalGoober]
[Edited on 3/31/2015 by OriginalGoober]
People who oppose gay marriage aren't prone to killing themselves and 150 other innocent people. Care to make an intelligent comment about it?
Not to be picky or particular, but that is a blanket statement. I would imagine that there are a few homicidal/suicidal cases among the homophobic public.
You make my point on the idiocy of some of these government policies enacted to "protect us".
For example, Obamacare forms wanted to know how many guns the applicant owned.
How does that have anything to do with getting sick or listing pre-existing conditions?
Pretty sure that isn't true. If you have a copy of the form or a link to it that shows where and how that question is asked, I will stand corrected.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/medicare.asp
You make my point on the idiocy of some of these government policies enacted to "protect us".
How so? I dare you to come up with an answer that makes sense. Should our police departments abandon the psychological tests on recruits? That's a government policy.
For example, Obamacare forms wanted to know how many guns the applicant owned.
Complete b.s. I applied for Obamacare, and no such question was asked.
Next.
quote:
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People who oppose gay marriage aren't prone to killing themselves and 150 other innocent people. Care to make an intelligent comment about it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Not to be picky or particular, but that is a blanket statement. I would imagine that there are a few homicidal/suicidal cases among the homophobic public.
Of course, but they are not "prone" to it.
There's plenty of evidence out there that he was diagnosed by a doctor as mentally ill, and unfit to work. If we had laws in place that allowed our doctors to communicate potential dangers to authorities, then this could've been avoided. If the airline decided to do the same testing as his doctors, this could've been avoided.
For general psychological services, I do support that right to privacy between the patient and doctor. However, if you choose a certain occupation that can affect the safety of citizens, like a pilot or a cop, then maybe that right should be waived.
The employers like airlines, police, etc. could have their own M.D.'s on staff to provide 2nd opinions where the employee's status is questionable. The Dr'.s would have to be totally ethical not like the rubber stamp clowns hired by the insurance companies to deny disability benefits to Workman's Compensation claimants. [in this instance they would certify the employee able to work] Any time you see a company that says they have panel Dr.'s to do independent medical exams, be aware many of them are part of the rubber stamp clowns on the payroll for the insurance companies thru clandestine contractual arrangements.
[Edited on 4/2/2015 by gina]
They report he had been having an affair with a stewardess named Maria just weeks before he crashed the plane.
Last moments before the crash.
from Paris Match also obtained information from the 'Cockpit Voice Recorder,' one of the aircraft's two black boxes, which recorded the sounds and conversations in the cockpit.
Its contents were described for the periodical by a special investigator. Here is his account:
10am: The airplane takes off.
10:10am: The Captain says to Lubitz: 'I didn't have time to use the bathroom before taking off.' Lubitz replies: 'Go whenever you'd like.'
10:27am: The plane reaches cruising altitude, which is 38000ft (11,500m).
The captain asks Lubitz to prepare the approach for landing and to verify that the plane can begin the landing process. Lubitz obeys. He repeats to the captain again: 'You can go. You can go now.'
10:28am: Noise can be heard coming from a seat. The captain removes his seatbelt. The door is opened. The captain says to Lubitz: 'You are in control now.'
Lubitz answers with a seemingly light tone of voice: 'I hope so.'
10:30am: Lubitz is alone in the cockpit. He locks the door with the 'Lock' button: it is no longer possible to open the door from the outside.
The sounds can be heard of automatic pilot being reprogrammed to accelerate the descent, pushing the plane from 38,000ft (11,000m) to 100ft (30m) in a matter of minutes.
10:33am: The landing begins. The plane drops 3000ft (900m) per minute. Air traffic controllers detect the problem. They try several times to contact the airplane by radio. Lubitz does not respond.
The captain's voice can be heard as he tries to open the door: 'It's me!' The captain is facing a camera connected to the cockpit. Lubitz sees him on screen but does not react.
The captain grabs an oxygen tank or fire extinguisher in order to break down the door.No response from Lubitz. The captain yells: 'For the love of God, open this door!'
10:34am: A first alarm goes off, audible and visual: 'SINK RATE, PULL UP.' No reaction from Lubitz.
Through the cockpit door, the first sounds of passengers running in the aisles can be heard.
10:35am: The captain asks for the crowbar hidden in the back of the plane. Louder bangs can be heard hitting the door, followed by metallic sounds. The captain tries to bend the door with the crowbar.
10:37am: A second alarm is set off, audible and visual: 'TERRAIN, PULL UP.' Still no reaction from Lubitz. The captain yells: 'Open this f*****g door!'
10:38am: Despite the deafening noises, Lubitz's breathing can cleary be heard through an oxygen mask he put on. He is breathing normally. The plane is at 13,000 feet (4000 ms).
10:40am: A violent sound can be heard outside. At the same time, inside, screaming. The Airbus hits the mountain with its right wing. No other sound, save for the alarms and the screaming passengers.
10:41am: The airplane hits the Estrop mountain range at 5,000 feet (1500m) at 800 km/h.
Remarks: The other pilot even tried to use a crowbar to get back in the cabin.
[Edited on 4/2/2015 by gina]
