hey 'hawk 
man...
I agree...this thread is good for a laugh... 
This is getting out of control. Yes, I'm a Pats fan it's fairly obvious. Yes, I was extremely disappointed when this story first leaked, but the more it goes on the more I believe this is just a huge media stunt created by ESPN.
Look at the facts:
1) the NFL has not released any official statements, everything is coming from "ESPN unnamed sources"
2) the story first leaked from an Indy beat writer, the cause of the story was based on Jackson mentioning the ball seemed deflated after his second quarter interception. Jackson has gone on record saying he NEVER said anything like that, in fact he went on record saying he would never be able to tell the difference... so where is the groundwork for this story now? As a side note I find it funny how ESPN is hiding this article, when it should be front page news like all the Patriots hatred and satire. Shouldn’t the original reason for the investigation (that was obviously a media fabrication) be front page worthy, or is this story solely based on assumptions that Brady and BB are lying? Clearly the only person proven to be lying at this point is the Colts beat writer saying it was Jackson who claimed the balls were deflated.
3) 11 out of 12 balls were deflated according to a report. Patriots have gone on record saying they bring the balls down to the minimum requirement of 12.5 PSI. Wouldnt it be much easier for balls to fall below the minimum threshold throughout the evening since they are already on the cusp? No data from the colts balls have been released except for the fact they were still within regulation. What if the Colts balls started at 14.5 PSI (within regulation) and deflated to 13 PSI throughout the course of the game? Still within regulation, but still showing similar signs of deflation? Why hasn’t the nfl released any of this information yet?
4) The NFL never released the refs protocol of checking the balls before the game, it has never been said that the refs measured these balls at all before the game. The only comments were that they were "checked" but how were they "checked?" Something tells me the ref gave them a quick squeeze and said okay lets go.Guilty until proven innocent. I strongly believe there is a good chance the Patriots did nothing wrong, and yes I do believe there is a chance they did.
Having said that, the media is doing a great job of destroying two legacy's and patriots haters are doing a great job of casting the first stone without any concrete evidence whatsoever. I hope if found innocent the Bob Kraft sues ESPN and other media outlets for defamation. This so called “cheating scandal” is a joke.
Just like after the Ravens game everyone wanted the Patriots heads for running LEGAL formations while APPROPRIATELY notifying the refs of eligibility, but since it was the Patriots it was foul play.
Give me a break, and move on with your lives.
Sorry Pats fan. You are dead wrong. The Patriots need to be pulled from the Superbowl. I say let the Colts play. Bellicheck and Brady should both resign. The league just doesn't need dishonorable men in the game.
The Colts? They got beat 45-7. 45-7.
I have a better idea, if you want to toss the Patriots.
How about the Chiefs? They actually beat the Pats.
or Miami.
or wait! The Bills!
no no, GB. After all, if it wasn't for a dude trying to catch the ball with his facemask on an onside kick, they would've won. Let's make it an NFC v. NFC SB.
I know a lot of fans who hate the Patriots because of how cocky and arrogant their fans are.
I understand that completely. Same thing people say about the yankees.
Patriot's by 20 huh? Denver thought the same thing last year and things did not work out so well for them.
That's nothing compared to how Pats fans felt in 2007/08. We know the bitter taste of defeat.
Oh no your team lost one game that season. Must of been so hard to watch. Now watching a team lose all 16 games in a season, well that left a bitter taste in my mouth.
I will be curious how Patriot fans will post here after the Seahawks beat them. Should be very interesting.
If that happens, I for one will be here to offer congrats, same as I have done every time my team has lost in a big game.
Oh no your team lost one game that season. Must of been so hard to watch. Now watching a team lose all 16 games in a season, well that left a bitter taste in my mouth.
I was a Patriots season ticket holder when I lived closer in the early 90s. The years I had tix they were 1-15, 6-10, 2-14, 5-11. I get it.
Oh no your team lost one game that season. Must of been so hard to watch. Now watching a team lose all 16 games in a season, well that left a bitter taste in my mouth.
I was a Patriots season ticket holder when I lived closer in the early 90s. The years I had tix they were 1-15, 6-10, 2-14, 5-11. I get it.
To a degree I agree. The Patriots have also made the super bowl in the 80's, 90's, 2000's, and again this year. At least the bad years have balanced out with good years. The Lions have a banner hanging for making the playoffs as a wild card.
Oh no your team lost one game that season. Must of been so hard to watch. Now watching a team lose all 16 games in a season, well that left a bitter taste in my mouth.
I was a Patriots season ticket holder when I lived closer in the early 90s. The years I had tix they were 1-15, 6-10, 2-14, 5-11. I get it.
To a degree I agree. The Patriots have also made the super bowl in the 80's, 90's, 2000's, and again this year. At least the bad years have balanced out with good years. The Lions have a banner hanging for making the playoffs as a wild card.
Fair point. I will say that one nice side benefit of them sucking at the time was more access. We used to be able to get into the players parking lot after the game where they were tailgating like fans do before the game. Got to meet Steve Grogan at one of those tailgates while hitting a keg that was in the trunk of someone's tiny sports car. Good times. No one hated us back then.
[Edited on 1/24/2015 by gondicar]
If only there was the same outrage and anger over the tax status of the NFL...Only in America do we blow these absurd media driver controversies up like their actually important while at the same time ignore an issue that is. Just my opinion of course...
Oh no your team lost one game that season. Must of been so hard to watch. Now watching a team lose all 16 games in a season, well that left a bitter taste in my mouth.
I was a Patriots season ticket holder when I lived closer in the early 90s. The years I had tix they were 1-15, 6-10, 2-14, 5-11. I get it.
To a degree I agree. The Patriots have also made the super bowl in the 80's, 90's, 2000's, and again this year. At least the bad years have balanced out with good years. The Lions have a banner hanging for making the playoffs as a wild card.
Fair point. I will say that one nice side benefit of them sucking at the time was more access. We used to be able to get into the players parking lot after the game where they were tailgating like fans do before the game. Got to meet Steve Grogan at one of those tailgates while hitting a keg that was in the trunk of someone's tiny sports car. Good times. No one hated us back then.
[Edited on 1/24/2015 by gondicar]
Maybe if the Lions spied on their oppenets and deflaterd balls we'd be as good as the Patroits 😛 ;). Or we could get a great coach and a hall of fame QB (fingers crossed that Caldwell is that coach and Stafford can elivate his game even more)
Some questions for the Patriot apologists who think this is nothing. At what level of cheating should it be punished? If the Patriots are so good, why do they risk it by cheating?
The balls were deflated two pounds under the MINIMAL acceptable limit. AND they were de-flated AFTER they had been originally inspected. That makes it deliberate, not accidental or incompetence.
Chris Simms has always had a fascination with footballs. As a towheaded seven-year-old, he played catch in the backyard of his leafy New Jersey home with his famous father, Phil, then the starting quarterback of the New York Giants. Little Chris thought all the footballs in their home were the same until, one day, his dad started oohing and aahing over a particular ball, holding it in his hands like it was a precious piece of art and admiring it as if it was a rare find. “Now this ball has been broken in perfectly,” Phil told his son, showing him the slightly scuffed ball. “See how you can grip it really well.”
From that day forward, the younger Simms became something of an expert in analyzing footballs. After starting two seasons at the University of Texas, Simms played six years in the NFL, mostly as a backup. But through his stints with Tampa Bay (2004-06), Tennessee (2008 and ’10) and Denver (2009), his pregame ritual never changed.
“Before every game I ever played in the NFL, I went over to the opposing team to check out their game balls and see how the other quarterbacks liked their footballs,” Simms said. “I wanted to know how Peyton Manning liked his ball or how Brett Favre liked his. And I never, not once, felt a ball that wasn’t inflated to regulation standards.
Greg McElroy, a backup quarterback for the Jets and Bengals from 2011-13. "every quarterback is different and has different things they like in a football. I like high laces. Andy [Dalton] likes his footballs to be worn in. Evidently, Tom Brady likes deflated balls.”
One NFL coach, who requested anonymity, strongly believes New England has crossed a line between trying to gain a competitive advantage and cheating. “There was one year we played them up there and it snowed,” the coach said. “They sprayed their shoes with silicone so that the snow wouldn’t cake up on their cleats. We didn’t know to do that and they kicked our ass. That’s smart on their part. This is different.
Several former quarterbacks, current coaches and current general managers all shared a similar theory with B/R about what they believed happened on Sunday.
“I think this has been going on all year with Tom [Brady] and the equipment guys,” said one quarterback, echoing the statements of others. “It’s become unspoken. The equipment guys know that Tom likes a softer ball and so they do this trying to make him happy. The equipment guys secretly take some air out of the balls after the referees have inspected them before the game. It’s just this time, they got caught.”
I am convinced that the Patriots followed every rule to the letter. The world owes BB, TB, and the Patriots as a whole an apology. This entire thing has been the biggest farce in sports history.
This is getting out of control. Yes, I'm a Pats fan it's fairly obvious. Yes, I was extremely disappointed when this story first leaked, but the more it goes on the more I believe this is just a huge media stunt created by ESPN.
Look at the facts:
1) the NFL has not released any official statements, everything is coming from "ESPN unnamed sources"
2) the story first leaked from an Indy beat writer, the cause of the story was based on Jackson mentioning the ball seemed deflated after his second quarter interception. Jackson has gone on record saying he NEVER said anything like that, in fact he went on record saying he would never be able to tell the difference... so where is the groundwork for this story now? As a side note I find it funny how ESPN is hiding this article, when it should be front page news like all the Patriots hatred and satire. Shouldn’t the original reason for the investigation (that was obviously a media fabrication) be front page worthy, or is this story solely based on assumptions that Brady and BB are lying? Clearly the only person proven to be lying at this point is the Colts beat writer saying it was Jackson who claimed the balls were deflated.
3) 11 out of 12 balls were deflated according to a report. Patriots have gone on record saying they bring the balls down to the minimum requirement of 12.5 PSI. Wouldnt it be much easier for balls to fall below the minimum threshold throughout the evening since they are already on the cusp? No data from the colts balls have been released except for the fact they were still within regulation. What if the Colts balls started at 14.5 PSI (within regulation) and deflated to 13 PSI throughout the course of the game? Still within regulation, but still showing similar signs of deflation? Why hasn’t the nfl released any of this information yet?
4) The NFL never released the refs protocol of checking the balls before the game, it has never been said that the refs measured these balls at all before the game. The only comments were that they were "checked" but how were they "checked?" Something tells me the ref gave them a quick squeeze and said okay lets go.Guilty until proven innocent. I strongly believe there is a good chance the Patriots did nothing wrong, and yes I do believe there is a chance they did.
Having said that, the media is doing a great job of destroying two legacy's and patriots haters are doing a great job of casting the first stone without any concrete evidence whatsoever. I hope if found innocent the Bob Kraft sues ESPN and other media outlets for defamation. This so called “cheating scandal” is a joke.
Just like after the Ravens game everyone wanted the Patriots heads for running LEGAL formations while APPROPRIATELY notifying the refs of eligibility, but since it was the Patriots it was foul play.
Give me a break, and move on with your lives.
Sorry Pats fan. You are dead wrong. The Patriots need to be pulled from the Superbowl. I say let the Colts play. Bellicheck and Brady should both resign. The league just doesn't need dishonorable men in the game.
The Colts? They got beat 45-7. 45-7.
I have a better idea, if you want to toss the Patriots.
How about the Chiefs? They actually beat the Pats.
or Miami.
or wait! The Bills!
no no, GB. After all, if it wasn't for a dude trying to catch the ball with his facemask on an onside kick, they would've won. Let's make it an NFC v. NFC SB.
The Hawks did all they could to give the game to Green Bay and they still could not beat them , in the end the Packers just were not as good as everyone thought , Beast Mode 120 yards in the second half , Karen Rodgers QB rating wasn't much better than Wilson's even though Wilson had a goose egg at the end of the first half . GO HAWKS
I am convinced that the Patriots followed every rule to the letter. The world owes BB, TB, and the Patriots as a whole an apology. This entire thing has been the biggest farce in sports history.
Why? Because Belichick ran this closed door experiment and proclaimed himself innocent? Explain why the Colts footballs were also examined and found compliant, The fact is that the balls were checked by the officials and were compliant and then returned to the team. At that point, no further work is permitted to be done on the footballs and the air pressure should not have changed. The Patriots should have admitted their mistake and moved on. As with all of these type things, the cover up becomes worse that the original mistake.
I am convinced that the Patriots followed every rule to the letter. The world owes BB, TB, and the Patriots as a whole an apology. This entire thing has been the biggest farce in sports history.
Why? Because Belichick ran this closed door experiment and proclaimed himself innocent? Explain why the Colts footballs were also examined and found compliant, The fact is that the balls were checked by the officials and were compliant and then returned to the team. At that point, no further work is permitted to be done on the footballs and the air pressure should not have changed. The Patriots should have admitted their mistake and moved on. As with all of these type things, the cover up becomes worse that the original mistake.
The ball is in the NFLs court to explain what happened. No pun intended.
This is getting out of control. Yes, I'm a Pats fan it's fairly obvious. Yes, I was extremely disappointed when this story first leaked, but the more it goes on the more I believe this is just a huge media stunt created by ESPN.
Look at the facts:
1) the NFL has not released any official statements, everything is coming from "ESPN unnamed sources"
2) the story first leaked from an Indy beat writer, the cause of the story was based on Jackson mentioning the ball seemed deflated after his second quarter interception. Jackson has gone on record saying he NEVER said anything like that, in fact he went on record saying he would never be able to tell the difference... so where is the groundwork for this story now? As a side note I find it funny how ESPN is hiding this article, when it should be front page news like all the Patriots hatred and satire. Shouldn’t the original reason for the investigation (that was obviously a media fabrication) be front page worthy, or is this story solely based on assumptions that Brady and BB are lying? Clearly the only person proven to be lying at this point is the Colts beat writer saying it was Jackson who claimed the balls were deflated.
3) 11 out of 12 balls were deflated according to a report. Patriots have gone on record saying they bring the balls down to the minimum requirement of 12.5 PSI. Wouldnt it be much easier for balls to fall below the minimum threshold throughout the evening since they are already on the cusp? No data from the colts balls have been released except for the fact they were still within regulation. What if the Colts balls started at 14.5 PSI (within regulation) and deflated to 13 PSI throughout the course of the game? Still within regulation, but still showing similar signs of deflation? Why hasn’t the nfl released any of this information yet?
4) The NFL never released the refs protocol of checking the balls before the game, it has never been said that the refs measured these balls at all before the game. The only comments were that they were "checked" but how were they "checked?" Something tells me the ref gave them a quick squeeze and said okay lets go.Guilty until proven innocent. I strongly believe there is a good chance the Patriots did nothing wrong, and yes I do believe there is a chance they did.
Having said that, the media is doing a great job of destroying two legacy's and patriots haters are doing a great job of casting the first stone without any concrete evidence whatsoever. I hope if found innocent the Bob Kraft sues ESPN and other media outlets for defamation. This so called “cheating scandal” is a joke.
Just like after the Ravens game everyone wanted the Patriots heads for running LEGAL formations while APPROPRIATELY notifying the refs of eligibility, but since it was the Patriots it was foul play.
Give me a break, and move on with your lives.
Sorry Pats fan. You are dead wrong. The Patriots need to be pulled from the Superbowl. I say let the Colts play. Bellicheck and Brady should both resign. The league just doesn't need dishonorable men in the game.
The Colts? They got beat 45-7. 45-7.
I have a better idea, if you want to toss the Patriots.
How about the Chiefs? They actually beat the Pats.
or Miami.
or wait! The Bills!
no no, GB. After all, if it wasn't for a dude trying to catch the ball with his facemask on an onside kick, they would've won. Let's make it an NFC v. NFC SB.
The Hawks did all they could to give the game to Green Bay and they still could not beat them , in the end the Packers just were not as good as everyone thought , Beast Mode 120 yards in the second half , Karen Rodgers QB rating wasn't much better than Wilson's even though Wilson had a goose egg at the end of the first half . GO HAWKS
LOL the Pack beat the Hawks ass for 55 minutes and gave the game away with a couple of stupid errors and a lucky bounce. I would not be so arrogant based on such a poor showing on your home field. The Hawks are not as good as you think my friend and as much as I would hate to see it there is a good chance the Pats kick their ass next week. Can't think of the last Super Bowl where I wished both teams could lose.
This is pretty funny. SNL's treatment of the Patriots press conference:
Passing 1st downs GB 11 SEA 10
Rushing 1st downs GB 6 SEA 10
3rd down efficiency GB 3-14 SEA 8-16
Total Plays GB 65 SEA 70
Total Yards GB 306 SEA 397
Yards per play GB 4.7 SEA 5.7
Passing GB 171 SEA 203
Yards per pass GB 4.9 SEA 5.8
Rushing GB 135 SEA 194
Yards per rush GB 4.5 SEA 5.5
Red Zone (Made-Att) GB 1-3 SEA 2-3
Possession GB 32:15 SEA 31:04
Hardly a mauling , Seattle played horrible and it had nothing to do with Green Bay , Wilson was aweful , when they had a good drive going Wilson throws a pick , Packers defence played well but so did the Hawks defence . Seahawks were beating themselves , worst game they played all year , and that is why they were losing for most of the game , but when they absolutely had to make plays they did , on three straight drives the Packers could not stop them . GO HAWKS
The guy that sings does a very good Bon Scott.
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
Passing 1st downs GB 11 SEA 10
Rushing 1st downs GB 6 SEA 10
3rd down efficiency GB 3-14 SEA 8-16
Total Plays GB 65 SEA 70
Total Yards GB 306 SEA 397
Yards per play GB 4.7 SEA 5.7
Passing GB 171 SEA 203
Yards per pass GB 4.9 SEA 5.8
Rushing GB 135 SEA 194
Yards per rush GB 4.5 SEA 5.5
Red Zone (Made-Att) GB 1-3 SEA 2-3
Possession GB 32:15 SEA 31:04Hardly a mauling , Seattle played horrible and it had nothing to do with Green Bay , Wilson was aweful , when they had a good drive going Wilson throws a pick , Packers defence played well but so did the Hawks defence . Seahawks were beating themselves , worst game they played all year , and that is why they were losing for most of the game , but when they absolutely had to make plays they did , on three straight drives the Packers could not stop them . GO HAWKS
So you figure GB defense had nothing to do with Wilson's struggles or that Rodgers was playing on one leg which limited GB's offense? Really? The one time Rodgers moved out of the pocket and extended the play it resulted in a Cobb TD pass. The Hawks were lucky Rodgers was playing on one leg.
The Hawks won on 2 trick plays. If GB recovers the on side kick it is game over.
Good luck next week as the Hawks are going to need it.
So yesterday Dean Blandino admitted that there was no documentation of ball measurement before the AFC Champ game (something I have suspected since the beginning of this nonsense), and so now the NFL absolutely owes an apology to the Patriots. Of course we all know that the NFL will never apologize, but if the Patriots are fined one cent, Kraft has every right to go ballistic on the league.
Time to play football.
[Edited on 1/30/2015 by gondicar]
Tom Brady says no one from the NFL office has contacted hm about this. So WTF has the NFL been doing all week? That was the most shocking thing I heard yesterday. This entire stupid mess has taken on a life of its own and turned into an outright media witch hunt the likes of which I have never seen, and the NFL is largely to blame.
Brady and Belichick have both told their side of it in pressers that IMO did nothing other than make a mockery of the media circus that this has turned into. If you don't believe them, then that's fine and the truth will be whatever you want it to be. But they denied any role in violating any rules as it relates to the handling of the footballs, and so the onus is now on Goodell to come out TODAY and present whatever evidence they have about what actually happened and either punish them or clear them (not that either one will satisfy the sharks that are out for blood no matter what). If he doesn't/can't do that, then Goodell really needs to go.
PS - Mark Brunell is an freakin idiot.
[Edited on 1/23/2015 by gondicar]
"they denied any role in violating any rules as it relates to the handling of the footballs"
Welll, that's easy, other people were responsible for inflating the balls to the pressure they were found to be at. 11 out of 12 balls underinflated is not a mistake because two people handle the balls. Were both their gauges defective? Not likely. Looks like it was deliberately done, and that one ball that had the correct weight, that's probably the first one handed to the officials when they went to check the balls in the routine procedure. It's no different than pine-tar on baseball bats. Giving yourself an advantage that the other team does not have is cheating.
What did the gauges say the PSI was when the balls were inspected before the game? When were gauges actually used? Who used them? Were gauges even involved? These are just a few oif the questions that have no answers almost a week after this story broke. So how do you possibly conclude that it "looks like it was deliberately done" given how little (as in ZERO nada nothing) we know about the process to inspect them balls before, during and after the game? I am surprised that such a committed conspiracy theorist like yourself would lap up the media hype and be so easily duped into believing what they want you to believe with little to no evidence to back them up.
When they were inspected prior to the game, the balls were at proper inflation pressure between 12.5 - 14.5 pai. More than one gauge was used reportedly. Later on, when there was a question and a ball was found to have 10.5 psi (2 lbs lower than the minimal acceptable pressure, that's when they tested all the balls).
A day after it was reported the NFL is eyeing a locker room attendant in the Deflategate debacle, NBC’s Pro Football Talk has reported video evidence shows that attendant going to a bathroom after he removed a bag of game footballs from the officials’ locker room on his way to the field.
According PFT’s league source, the attendant carried the two bags of footballs, 24 total, into the bathroom for about 90 seconds. The Patriots found the video evidence and turned it over to the league, according to the report.
Comments: Now a locker room attendant taking two bags of balls into the bathroom before bringing them onto the field sounds like it was a procedure that they had in place on how and where to do deflating.
When they were inspected prior to the game, the balls were at proper inflation pressure between 12.5 - 14.5 pai. More than one gauge was used reportedly. Later on, when there was a question and a ball was found to have 10.5 psi (2 lbs lower than the minimal acceptable pressure, that's when they tested all the balls).
Comments: Now a locker room attendant taking two bags of balls into the bathroom before bringing them onto the field sounds like it was a procedure that they had in place on how and where to do deflating.
You are confusing unconfirmed/unsubstantiated media reports with reality as conveyed by the NFL. The NFL has made no statements regarding the specific PSI that were measured. Further, the head of NFL officiating said in a press conference yesterday that the NFL does not document the PSI of the balls from the pre-game and in-game inspections, revealing that this is an ever bigger joke than first thought.
As for the locker room attendant, he had to take a pee for cryin out loud!
Gondicar
Newest rumor is that Billy B. had paid off Sherman's wife's OBGYN to ensure a Sunday delivery of the baby
Gondicar
Newest rumor is that Billy B. had paid off Sherman's wife's OBGYN to ensure a Sunday delivery of the baby
Sounds plausible. 😛
Another theory is that it has all been a publicity stunt orchestrated by the NFL...
How the NFL Made a Fool of You With DeflateGate
[Edited on 1/30/2015 by gondicar]
Gondicar
Newest rumor is that Billy B. had paid off Sherman's wife's OBGYN to ensure a Sunday delivery of the baby
Sounds plausible. 😛
Another theory is that it has all been a publicity stunt orchestrated by the NFL...
How the NFL Made a Fool of You With DeflateGate
[Edited on 1/30/2015 by gondicar]
Someone from MA,with an opinion,acomputer and blog...that is a novel idea. 😉 😛
No bias at all I am sure. 😛 😉 .
This is pretty funny!!
Everyone has a plan, till you get punched in the face,
News Flash:
Billy B. seen out last night at a restaurant with Pamela Anderson who looked like she suddenly had "B" sized cups. Bellicheck blamed the cold weather for the "deflation"
Ha ha ha haaaaaa! Suck it, haters! I'm sure the media will rush to correct their "deflategate" reports, and everyone else will apologize for calling the Pats cheaters. While we wait, we will plan a parade!
http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/02/01/deflategate-only-one-patriots-football-underinflated
Only one of the 12 New England Patriots footballs used in the team's AFC Championship game win against the Indianapolis Colts was under-inflated by a full two pounds, according to NFL.com's Ian Rapoport.
"Several" other balls were found to be roughly one pound under-inflated, and "several more" were either right at, or barely beneath, the correct inflation mark.
The one football under-inflated by two pounds is in the NFL's possession for purposes of its ongoing investigation as to whether the Patriots purposefully deflated their footballs in order to gain an advantage over the Colts.
Footage exists of an "elderly" employee carrying both the Patriots and Colts' footballs into a Gillette Stadium bathroom before the AFC Championship game for approximately 90 seconds.
NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said Friday in his press conference that the league has not made any judgments yet as to the Patriots' guilt or innocence in the matter.
[Edited on 2/2/2015 by gondicar]
There is a big difference between joking and hating; that was most surely a joke
There is a big difference between joking and hating; that was most surely a joke
What was?
The Pamela Anderson comment; thought your haters comented was responding to that - you do have a sense of humor about EVERYTHING BUT THE PATS
