https://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-dumps-mbs-start-war-172746296.html

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/saudi-arabia-russia-dig-long-150723525.html

Basically the Saudis lowered costs, the US has been using the shale deposits to profit from, and Russia was losing money by going along with the OPEC request to cut production to increase profits for the OPEC members. Russia has manners, but enough is enough.

Those are helpful links.

From EIA.gov in 2019:

US imported 9.10mill barrels a day of petroleum products of which crude oil was 6.79mill barrels.
US exported 8.57mill barrels a day of petroleum products of which crude oil was 2.98mill barrels.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=727&t=6

We imported a little over 500,000 barrels a day from Russia in 2019. They want to put the foot down on US shale producers. Cut that 500,000 from Russia and either source it from other countries or prop up our own oil producers. Why import when we should be supporting American jobs and economic activity? Keep the money here!

Peak oil just called from 1998, said never-mind

😛

Those are helpful links.

From EIA.gov in 2019:

US imported 9.10mill barrels a day of petroleum products of which crude oil was 6.79mill barrels.
US exported 8.57mill barrels a day of petroleum products of which crude oil was 2.98mill barrels.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=727&t=6

We imported a little over 500,000 barrels a day from Russia in 2019. They want to put the foot down on US shale producers. Cut that 500,000 from Russia and either source it from other countries or prop up our own oil producers. Why import when we should be supporting American jobs and economic activity? Keep the money here!

I thought shale is not of the same quality of oil and it damages the land like fracking.

I thought shale is not of the same quality of oil and it damages the land like fracking.

I don't know, but google searches can tell me...I mean how much about this stuff do any of us really know off the cuff without the internet at our finger tips?

So most of US oil is considered light good for gasoline.
Most of the imported oil is medium to heavy good for diesel and jet fuel. We should do as much biodiesel as possible to offset any need for imported oil to refine diesel fuel.

As for the land and the extraction fossil fuels, it depends what you think about the balance of economic need vs land preservation and cleanliness. An oil well can never be "green" simply because of the invasive nature and construction footprint that results from the wells. Then on the other hand, nobody wants gross polluters either. It's all in striking the balance.

Let's keep here what we need for ourselves and only bring in what we can't produce alone.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=41033

From a WSJ article:

Russia hasn’t given up on returning to the OPEC negotiating table. But it now faces Saudi intransigence. This week Russia signaled it would join a technical conference call next week for OPEC and its allies to discuss market conditions—a sign it intends to maintain lines of communication with the cartel, according to oil officials. Saudi Arabia’s delegates didn’t agree to participate, these officials said. The call was canceled.

I paid $1.79 for gas today. It took a while to drop but it’s finally arrived.

At present I'm reading a fascinating biography about Thomas Edison written by the recently deceased Edmund Morris. In one section Edison, in 1909, posed the question of why mankind is so foolish to continue the scheme of combustion to get power. The "Prometheus scheme of fire" as he called it.

Whereas Electricity is all around us in nature and should be as cheap as oxygen, for it cannot be destroyed. What we need to do is invent a way to capture the electricity created by the largest generator in the solar system, the sun.

Had the electric automobile, at that time still competing with the internal combustion engine, won the day at the beginning of the transportation revolution, the world might be a far different place today. Less warfare over finite fossil fuels, less environmental destruction, etc...

No traffic on the road during rush hour these days. Good bet gas will drop below $3 in CA in two weeks. Works for me!

No traffic on the road during rush hour these days. Good bet gas will drop below $3 in CA in two weeks. Works for me!

I haven't paid over 3 bucks for years. Glad I got out of that place

Laterz

At present I'm reading a fascinating biography about Thomas Edison written by the recently deceased Edmund Morris. In one section Edison, in 1909, posed the question of why mankind is so foolish to continue the scheme of combustion to get power. The "Prometheus scheme of fire" as he called it.

Whereas Electricity is all around us in nature and should be as cheap as oxygen, for it cannot be destroyed. What we need to do is invent a way to capture the electricity created by the largest generator in the solar system, the sun.

Had the electric automobile, at that time still competing with the internal combustion engine, won the day at the beginning of the transportation revolution, the world might be a far different place today. Less warfare over finite fossil fuels, less environmental destruction, etc...

If they'd listened to Nikola Tesla, things would be way different Edison had his moments, but was a back compared to Tesla when it came to innovation in electricity.

At present I'm reading a fascinating biography about Thomas Edison written by the recently deceased Edmund Morris. In one section Edison, in 1909, posed the question of why mankind is so foolish to continue the scheme of combustion to get power. The "Prometheus scheme of fire" as he called it.

Whereas Electricity is all around us in nature and should be as cheap as oxygen, for it cannot be destroyed. What we need to do is invent a way to capture the electricity created by the largest generator in the solar system, the sun.

Had the electric automobile, at that time still competing with the internal combustion engine, won the day at the beginning of the transportation revolution, the world might be a far different place today. Less warfare over finite fossil fuels, less environmental destruction, etc...

If they'd listened to Nikola Tesla, things would be way different Edison had his moments, but was a back compared to Tesla when it came to innovation in electricity.

I wouldn't say a hack, but arguably not on Tesla's level. And yes, had the world listened more to both inventor's things would be far different today.

Edison's brilliance was his ability to invent things way beyond just the area of electrification. Edison's inventions in mining technology alone would be a magnificent career for anyone else. For Edison it was but one area of many that he developed technology that changed the world. Portland cement being such an example.

Much has been made of the rivalry between Edison and Tesla....While there was rivalry certainly, there also was genuine respect and admiration between the two. Even a fondness for one another. So much so that Edison offered Tesla the use of one of his laboratories after Tesla lost everything in a fire that destroyed his entire scientific apparatus in the late 1890's....Strangely, at that point Tesla was very wealthy but had not insured his laboratory or the even the more valuable equipment it contained.

Like in the modern era of today, the press created and then hyped the level of rivalry between these two titans of discovery and inventiveness. Even after both were quoted numerous times in written print and personal letters praising one another.

I do not know much about the competition between electric vs internal combustion vehicles back at their infancy. Would certainly be an interesting topic to read about. I suspect one thing, as big as any other, was Ford built the model Ts with the gas engine and the production and success of that car seems to be what everyone else followed. What does the book say about Ford and Edison's relationship and their EV vs internal combustion ideas?

I do not know much about the competition between electric vs internal combustion vehicles back at their infancy. Would certainly be an interesting topic to read about. I suspect one thing, as big as any other, was Ford built the model Ts with the gas engine and the production and success of that car seems to be what everyone else followed. What does the book say about Ford and Edison's relationship and their EV vs internal combustion ideas?

Here is some good stuff.

https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/expert-sets/101111/

I do not know much about the competition between electric vs internal combustion vehicles back at their infancy. Would certainly be an interesting topic to read about. I suspect one thing, as big as any other, was Ford built the model Ts with the gas engine and the production and success of that car seems to be what everyone else followed. What does the book say about Ford and Edison's relationship and their EV vs internal combustion ideas?

Ford loved Edison...Later in life they became very close friends and Ford along with Harvey Firestone took frequent trips by car with Edison to various locations around the country for weeks on end.

Ford and Firestone convinced and helped capitalize an Edison led effort to grow rubber trees here in America as all three realized early on the threat to American industry should the supply of rubber be halted from the very few locations in the world where rubber trees grew. Especially during times of war given all three were arguably at their peaks of power and wealth during and between both world wars.

In the last years of Edison's life his effort at creating a domestic strain and productive crop of rubber trees became his biggest obsession and he devoted large sums of money, time, effort, etc. at producing such a vital product....Ultimately with limited success.

On other thing about the Ford Edison relationship....Henry Ford financed many of the museums and historic recreations that in the early 20th century and still to this day honor Edison....Literally millions of dollars of his own vast wealth were spent by Henry Ford to memorialize a person who was first his idol and later a very dear friend.

No traffic on the road during rush hour these days. Good bet gas will drop below $3 in CA in two weeks. Works for me!

Looks like it will be tomorrow or Wednesday. Saw earlier that oil was $28 and change PBL.

I do not know much about the competition between electric vs internal combustion vehicles back at their infancy. Would certainly be an interesting topic to read about. I suspect one thing, as big as any other, was Ford built the model Ts with the gas engine and the production and success of that car seems to be what everyone else followed. What does the book say about Ford and Edison's relationship and their EV vs internal combustion ideas?

Here is some good stuff.

https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/expert-sets/101111//blockquote >

Ford loved Edison...Later in life they became very close friends and Ford along with Harvey Firestone took frequent trips by car with Edison to various locations around the country for weeks on end.

Ford and Firestone convinced and helped capitalize an Edison led effort to grow rubber trees here in America as all three realized early on the threat to American industry should the supply of rubber be halted from the very few locations in the world where rubber trees grew. Especially during times of war given all three were arguably at their peaks of power and wealth during and between both world wars.

In the last years of Edison's life his effort at creating a domestic strain and productive crop of rubber trees became his biggest obsession and he devoted large sums of money, time, effort, etc. at producing such a vital product....Ultimately with limited success.

On other thing about the Ford Edison relationship....Henry Ford financed many of the museums and historic recreations that in the early 20th century and still to this day honor Edison....Literally millions of dollars of his own vast wealth were spent by Henry Ford to memorialize a person who was first his idol and later a very dear friend.

Thanks.

The link had a photo and story of how Ford and Edison would travel around and camp. One such location was near me due to their friendship with Harvey Firestone who was born in Columbiana OH just down the road.

So I still wonder, why didn't Ford choose to mass produce the model Ts with electric motors then?

 

WTI was low $20s Wednesday close. Brent mid $20s. Went up some Thursday.

Below $20!

My brother is a salesman for a chemical company that depends on oil - their stock went down to $0.88 a couple of days ago.....

This is a national security concern combined with huge job loss exposure. A couple Senators we’re talking about tariffing imported oil.

We’re aiding Saudi Arabia in Yemen and this is how they thank us? Sure they have either own interest and financial needs, but the timing is just the worst.

Crazy.

Closed higher. One analyst thinks it could go below $10 as storage for unneeded oil shrinks.

U.S. crude futures rose 1.9% to $20.48 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange, a day after crashing to a fresh 18-year low. Prices ended Tuesday down 54% for the month and 66% for the quarter, their largest monthly and quarterly drops ever, according to a Dow Jones Market Data analysis of figures going back to 1983.

Brent crude, the global gauge, edged down 0.1% to $22.74 a barrel on the Intercontinental Exchange on Tuesday.

There was a segment on the local news this morning and this economist was talking about the price of gas. Under 2 bucks a gallon here in Chicago which is really cheap. On the surface one might think that this is a good thing. But he said that line of thought of counter intuitive and if you think about it, I believe he is correct.

There's very little demand for gas which means the economy stinks. He made the argument that when the price starts to rise, that will be a good sign for the economy.

I tend to agree.

I agree too.

In a normal economy, low gas prices could spur travel and increased economic activity related to things that use and consume oil. Low gas prices now has no effect on demand. It could be .89 cents a gallon and the demand would still be the same. And the double edge of the sword now is that we produce so much oil, it is crippling. Outside of the last decade, the US economy would always have wanted cheap oil, gas and diesel - but now, what we really want is a happy medium...where the consumer economy can function on $x oil and the US producers can stay alive at $x oil.

I've always found oil prices pretty intriguing, and sometimes confusing, never-the-less I like to know about it. Probably until it returns to some kind of "normal", which might be $30-35, I'll probably keep posting some things in the thread.

The world is awash in crude oil right now, there is getting to a point where there aren't many places to keep and store it. And the US hasn't idled much capacity yet. And Saudi Arabia hasn't fully ramped up yet. It's all pretty crazy what is going on right now in so many aspects of life, health, economic and energy issues.

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but a big worry with oil this low is that domestic producers, some of which are highly laden with debt, could find themselves bankrupt before the prices rise again to the "healthy" middle area of pricing Nebish mentioned above.

As we've bantered about in this forum for several years now, a great deal of the oil security and affordable prices we've enjoyed in America and around the world for several years now is because of the tremendous growth of domestic production. Should that end due to a mass exodus of companies and the financing to make such production happen, then we're back to the good ole days of OPEC nations and others holding tremendous sway over the price of oil and the political leverage that entails....If the prices stay too low for too long anyway.....How long is anybodies guess.

Can you believe that some people have uttered the words "oil bailout". Yes, they have.

Not for the Exxons of the world, but all the small producers that are deep in debt like you say Chain.

Trump wanted to buy more oil for SPR, but Congress wouldn't approve the spending, not sure if it was supposed to be in the Phase Three or where that failure for funds comes from. So they are thinking about leasing space in the SPR for private company crude storage, which is an interesting proposal and a unique way to raise some money.

I wonder if we should tariff imported oil? As was mentioned in this thread, there may be types of crude produced abroad that we can't extract here for different refining blends. To the extent possible we should only refine as much domestic oil as possible. That isn't going to help Exxon or Chevron or Conoco since their operations are global efforts, but all these smaller companies in Texas and the Dakotas on the verge of bankruptcy, it could be a lifeline to them.

Supposedly Trump spoke to Putin and MBS about their production and the price being too low. Everyone agrees the price is too low, but not sure where that can go when actions out of Russia and Saudi Arabia intentionally have put it there. What concessions would Putin want if he agreed to cut production? I do think if US can convince Russia to cut back MBS will follow suit because after all that is what they wanted Russia to do in the beginning.

[Edited on 4/1/2020 by nebish]

No traffic on the road during rush hour these days. Good bet gas will drop below $3 in CA in two weeks. Works for me!

Looks like it will be tomorrow or Wednesday. Saw earlier that oil was $28 and change PBL.

You can find gas now in parts of So Cal for less than $2.

The U.S. has been through oil booms/busts countless times. It all works itself out both domestically and internationally eventually. After 9/11, for a brief time, gas was less than a buck a gallon. In 2008, it was almost $5 and by the end of the year was $2ish.

I don't like to see any industry suffer by those in the oil industry know (or should know) what they're getting into.

It will be interesting to see what happens in Texas..... people have been moving there for years because of low taxes .... which are low because of the energy busunesses there. Houston, Dallas, Austin, etc. have seen big increases in population.