God forbid the president make a statement....... damned if you do, damned if you don't.....sigh....
Here is the full text of his speech........in case you missed it
"Good afternoon, everybody.
This morning, I spoke with and Vice President Biden spoke with Mayor Joe Riley and other leaders at Charleston to express our deep sorrow over the senseless murders that took place last night.
Michelle and I know several members of Emanuel AME Church. We knew their pastor, Reverend Clementa Pinckney, who, along with eight others, gathered in prayer and fellow ship and was murdered last night, and to say our thoughts and prayers are with them and their families and their community doesn't say enough to convey the heartache and the sadness and the anger that we feel.
Any death of this sort is a tragedy. Any shooting involving multiple victims is a tragedy. There is something particularly heartbreaking about a death happening in a place in which we seek solace and we seek peace, in a place of worship.
Mother Emanuel is, in fact, more than a church. This is a place of worship that was founded by African Americans seeking liberty. This is a church that was burned to the ground because its worshipers worked to end slavery.
When there were laws banning all-black church gatherings, they conducted church services in secret. When there was a nonviolent movement to bring our country in closer line with our highest ideals, some of our brightest leaders spoke and led marches from this church's steps.
This is a sacred place in the history of Charleston and in the history of America.
The FBI is now on the scene with local police, and more of the bureau's best are on their way to join them. The attorney general has announced plans for the FBI to open a hate crime investigation. We understand that the suspect is in custody, and I'll let the best of law enforcement do its work to make sure that justice is served.
Until the investigation is complete, I'm necessarily constrained in terms of talking about the details of the case. But I don't need constrained about the emotions that tragedies like this raise.
I've had to make statements like this too many times. Communities like this have had to endure tragedies like this too many times.
We don't have all the facts, but we do know that once again, innocent people were killed in part because someone who wanted to inflict harm had no trouble getting their hand on a gun.
Now is the time for mourning and for healing. But let's be clear. At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries. It doesn't happen in other places with this kind of frequency.
And it is in our power to do something about it. I say that recognizing the politics in this town foreclose a lot of those avenues right now. But it'd be wrong for us not to acknowledge it, and at some point, it's going to important for the American to come to grips with it and for us to be able to shift how we think about the issue of gun violence collectively.
The fact that this took place in a black church obviously also raises questions about a dark part of our history. This is not the first time that black churches have been attacked, and we know the hatred across races and faiths pose a particular threat to our democracy and our ideals.
The good news is I am confident that the outpouring of unity and strength and fellowship and love across Charleston today, from all races, from all faiths, from all places of worship, indicates the degree to which those old vestiges of hatred can be overcome.
That certainly was Dr. King's hope just over 50 years ago after four little girls were killed in a bombing at a black church in Birmingham, Alabama.
He said, "They lived meaningful lives, and they died nobly. They say to each of us," Dr. King said, "black and white alike, that we must substitute courage for caution. They say to us that we must be concerned not merely with who murdered them but about the system, the way of life, philosophy which produced the murders. Their death says to us that we must work passionately and unrelentingly for the realization of the American Dream.
"And if one will hold on, he will discover that God walks with him and that God is able to lift you from the fatigue of despair to the buoyancy of hope and transform dark and desolate valleys into sunlit paths of inner peace."
Reverend Pinckney and his congregation understood that spirit. Their Christian faith compelled them to reach out not just to members of their congregation or to members of their own communities but to all in need. They opened their doors to strangers who might enter a church in search of healing or redemption.
Mother Emanuel Church and its congregation have risen before from flames, from an earthquake, from other dark times to give hope to generations of Charlestonians, and with our prayers and our love and the buoyancy of hope, it will rise again now as a place of peace.
Thank you."
Boy, that's really trashing your country...... geesh.... get a grip....
The Norway killer killed about half the number Timothy McVeigh did - how is Norway the site of the worst mass killing? How many mass killings happen in Great Britain? Japan?
A list of German school shootings shows 6 schools, with the most dead 17. Since 2001, there are 41 school shootings in the US, the most dead being 33 in Virginia. I would say the worst school shootings have occurred here......
But let's be clear. At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries.
Let's be clear. This is an absolute and total LIE.
It doesn't happen in other places with this kind of frequency.
How convenient that you missed the very next line you weasel born of racists.
The United States is my country as well and I'm tired or right wing fascists holding up some kind of shining torch polished with the confederate flag and acting like all is well and good.
This country needs improvement. For you to think this act wasn't motivated by racism is blatantly ignorant. To think that actual real gun control wouldn't save lives is STUPID.
But let's be clear. At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries.
Is this a truthful statement? A simple yes or no.
Oh, I get it. Inclusion of another line in the speech makes that statement magically truthful?
Sure.
If you choose to have yourself misled by a proven serial liar, be my guest. There are millions of gullible LI sheep that don't know any better. Obama knows it and it's perfectly fine with his vast legion of bed wetters.
As far as the "frequency" Obama might have a point. In other "advanced" countries the chance of being killed by a crazed gunman in a mass shooting is .0000012. In the USA, it's .00000124. So there's that.
To think that actual real gun control wouldn't save lives is STUPID.
What "actual, real gun control" do you propose?
What "actual, real gun control" do you propose?
Melt the guns. Take them away. There is no way in hell that guns are going to protect the citizens from the government. A well armed militia? Where? How? Under who's command?
Only 36.4 per cent of the eligible voters bothered going to the poles in 2014. You think our lazy ass citizenry deserves guns?
We rank well below the world average in Math, Science, and Reading... you think a bunch of stupid people deserve guns?
http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12
What's the next argument? Oh yeah... there are enough laws on the books already. They don't stop criminals from getting guns.
Wow. Great argument. Why don't we just legalize murder since those laws don't stop folks from murdering.
Back to the question...
None of the laws we currently have work. So, if it were up to me, I'd outlaw hand guns.
It isn't. I'm sure the violence will continue. Alloak and his ilk will continue to site bull $hit statistics, and people lie whoever the heck you are will wrap themselves up in the 2nd amendment while innocent people die.
And I'll scratch my head wondering why evolution hasn't effectively removed full blown idiots from the face of the Earth.
Oh. That's right. You idiots don't believe in evolution.
I can't believe anyone can continue to argue that more guns don't lead to more gun violence. Let's really look at the data (again).
Firearm fatalities per 100,000 residents- a selected comparison, easy to find complete lists
Mexico 11.17
US 10.24
France 3.01
Germany 1.24
Norway 1.78
Sweden 1.47
United Kingdom 0.25
Most mass killings 2009-2013 - indents/number of fatalities/% per 1,000,000 residents
Norway 1 77 15.3%
Slovakia 1 8 1.47%
Israel 2 11 1.38%
Finland 2 8 1.85%
Switzerland 2 6 0.75%
US 38/227 0.72%
Are you kidding me? Looking at this as a percentage of total population discounts every human life lost. Look at the freakin' numbers! Saying, "Oh, I know Norway only had one really bad incident, but their percentage is higher because they're such a tiny country, which means restrictive gun laws don't work" is just being obtuse. Such a statement implies that our numbers are acceptable collateral damage. And that doesn't even consider firearm fatalities per 100,000 residents. I heard someone say, "Cain killed Able with a rock. It's not a gun problem, its a heart problem." BS. Walk into a church and try to kill 9 people with a rock.
We need to disarm. Disarm the citizenry except for hunting rifles and shotguns. Disarm criminals by adding 10 years to every prison sentence for anyone caught with an illegal firearm during the commission of a crime. Then we can begin disarming, or at least de-arming law enforcement. It will take 50 years to change the culture, but it will be worth it. Instead we a re passing open carry laws. Geez, I just can't believe it.
And these numbers are only through 2013. Think we've had more, or less mass killings and gun violence in the last two and a half years than other countries?
[Edited on 6/20/2015 by DougMacKenzie]
What "actual, real gun control" do you propose?
Melt the guns. Take them away. There is no way in hell that guns are going to protect the citizens from the government. A well armed militia? Where? How? Under who's command?
Only 36.4 per cent of the eligible voters bothered going to the poles in 2014. You think our lazy ass citizenry deserves guns?
We rank well below the world average in Math, Science, and Reading... you think a bunch of stupid people deserve guns?
http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-rankings-2013-12
What's the next argument? Oh yeah... there are enough laws on the books already. They don't stop criminals from getting guns.
Wow. Great argument. Why don't we just legalize murder since those laws don't stop folks from murdering.
Back to the question...
None of the laws we currently have work. So, if it were up to me, I'd outlaw hand guns.
It isn't. I'm sure the violence will continue. Alloak and his ilk will continue to site bull $hit statistics, and people lie whoever the heck you are will wrap themselves up in the 2nd amendment while innocent people die.
And I'll scratch my head wondering why evolution hasn't effectively removed full blown idiots from the face of the Earth.
Oh. That's right. You idiots don't believe in evolution.
While I appreciate your response to my question, I certainly hope you're not lumping me in with the "idiots" that you refer to. My guess is that you are as it's clear that you don't believe that anyone can be a responsible gun owner.
Are there other things that the "lazy ass" & "stupid" citizens do not deserve to own or is it limited to guns (or just handguns, since you mentioned those specifically)?
I hate that guns are used to commit acts of violence. Certainly, the world would be a better place had they never been invented. I do enjoy mine and have a great time shooting them but I'd learn to live without them. My family and extended family would have to change their diet considerably, though).
I don't own an arsenal, just the basics: 12 gauge shotgun for hunting and home protection, a .22 varmint rifle, big game rifle (typically just for deer) and, yes, a handgun for personal protection and fun.
we'll have a difference of opinion here, but a law requiring an outright ban and meltdown would not make me feel safer. Plenty of bad people capable of doing unspeakable acts of violence without guns. I'd like to protect myself from those guys and I will as long as I'm allowed.
Hey Iwonderwho, I understand where you are coming from, and you probably represent the vast majority of gun owners. Do you think you could feel protected/safe with the hunting rifles and shotgun? You could still hunt, target shoot, whatever. Couldn't we do away with assault rifles and handguns and still enjoy our basic second amendment rights while increasing the safety of our citizenry?
Hey Iwonderwho, I understand where you are coming from, and you probably represent the vast majority of gun owners. Do you think you could feel protected/safe with the hunting rifles and shotgun? You could still hunt, target shoot, whatever. Couldn't we do away with assault rifles and handguns and still enjoy our basic second amendment rights while increasing the safety of our citizenry?
For the most part, yes.
There are places and situations (that I try to avoid of course) where protection in close quarters would make a handgun a more reasonable choice. I do have a carry permit and I do carry where allowed (car, etc.). I'm not one of those yahoo's who walks around with a .44 magnum showing on his belt.
Unfortunately, there are bad guys out there. there always will be. If they're not carrying guns, then it's knifes (or lead pipes, or bats). I've taken self defense classes but am too old, fat and inflexible to go all Karate Kid on somebody. I sure as hell can't outrun anybody anymore.
I've been faced with that situation once. Approached by a guy in a parking garage in Atlanta. I don't know what he had on him, might have been nothing but I felt threatened. one look at the weapon that I pulled from my hip holster was all it took to get him away and me to my car. I hope that it never comes up again but i will be prepared, as long as I'm allowed, if it ever comes up again.
I'd prefer to keep the second amendment until they give back all the rights they have taken away from us at break-neck pace since 9/11.
Hey Iwonderwho, I understand where you are coming from, and you probably represent the vast majority of gun owners. Do you think you could feel protected/safe with the hunting rifles and shotgun? You could still hunt, target shoot, whatever. Couldn't we do away with assault rifles and handguns and still enjoy our basic second amendment rights while increasing the safety of our citizenry?
For the most part, yes.
There are places and situations (that I try to avoid of course) where protection in close quarters would make a handgun a more reasonable choice. I do have a carry permit and I do carry where allowed (car, etc.). I'm not one of those yahoo's who walks around with a .44 magnum showing on his belt.
Unfortunately, there are bad guys out there. there always will be. If they're not carrying guns, then it's knifes (or lead pipes, or bats). I've taken self defense classes but am too old, fat and inflexible to go all Karate Kid on somebody. I sure as hell can't outrun anybody anymore.
I've been faced with that situation once. Approached by a guy in a parking garage in Atlanta. I don't know what he had on him, might have been nothing but I felt threatened. one look at the weapon that I pulled from my hip holster was all it took to get him away and me to my car. I hope that it never comes up again but i will be prepared, as long as I'm allowed, if it ever comes up again.
Thanks for the response. I tend to favor doing away with handguns and assault rifles, but also understand your scenario above. As a responsible gun owner, do you have any ideas about this?
I apologize for lumping you in with all the idiots "iwonderwho". Mass shooting make me passionate.
I do feel anyone thinking their guns will stop the tyranny of government is straight up moron. So I do feel the 2nd amendment is outdated. When Katrina plunged New Orleans into darkness the authorities had no trouble taking guns from the residents of New Orleans.
I have no trouble with hunting weapons. My tirade stems from the last ten years of no gun control measures being adopted. I think a great first step would be increasing the penalty for committing any crime with a gun. I think that if background checks can't be performed at gun shows then gun shows should be stopped until they can be regulated.
As Doug has pointed out, more guns do not stop gun deaths. More guns increase gun deaths.
Less guns makes sense.
Thanks for the response. I tend to favor doing away with handguns and assault rifles, but also understand your scenario above. As a responsible gun owner, do you have any ideas about this?
I could see a ban on semi-automatic rifles. I don't own an AR-15 or AK kind of thing (though I'll admit they are really run to shoot) as I've never seen the need. Even bolt-actions (forgive me as I don't my audience and I'm not trying to imply that you're not familiar with weapons) like in American Sniper or lever action like in cowboy movies can have high capacity but it takes some time to chamber the next round. It's not as simple as just squeezing the trigger like on a semi-auto.
I could also see a ban on semi auto handguns or simply reduced capacity like in California. I would not be in favor of an outright handgun ban.
I don't particularly like waiting periods but for a first-time purchaser I'd be OK with it. I would have no problem with a requirement for gun owners/purchasers to be licensed and required to take training classes (poor comparison, but it hasn't exactly helped automobile safety).
Reports are conflicting but i think this a$$hole in Charleston was a felon who could not legally own a gun. He was also using a .45 which has a lower capacity (due to size) but he had several magazines.
The problem will always be the criminal element.
Thanks for the apology Billy. it's a difficult time for us all. We can all agree that any loss of life by any means is a tragic thing and I' as sick of gun violence as the next guy. I agree that guns won't stop the tyranny of government on a federal level. I don't know that I trust any current group of politicians to start rewriting the Bill of Rights (they've done a good enough job simply ignoring it). I agree with getting guns away from criminals, with harsher penalties and destroying those weapons.
I wish all of the difficult problems in the world had simple answers. There would be no hate, violence, hunger, poor, etc.
Unfortunately, all of those things have existed as long as man. We're just not as highly created or evolved as we should be.
What an incredibly sad event.
Yes. Truly heartbreaking, so sorry for this. Deepest sympathies out to the families torn asunder and waking up this day to the reality that this actually occurred and wasn't just a nightmare. It sure hasn't helped my mood since it happened. Just can't wrap my brain around this one. Another one of those awful tragedies that stabs us all in the heart as a nation. The public forgiveness displayed is an inspiration, a step toward healing for all of us, and certainly has lessened the toxicity of my personal reaction.
You hurt a lot of people but God forgives you, and I forgive you." Felecia Sanders -- mother of victim Tywanza Sanders
sitting here about 5 beers into evening i was thinking about race and the issues we have as a society that some think we have and some don't. i was wondering where the conversation needs to start. last night i had an old old friend over that i hadn't seen in maybe 2 years except at a concert or two. he was here to show me some guitar stuff as i don't know how to play and we were smokin i was drinking, anyhow, politics come up a few times and a few times he said some pretty racist things. now i don't drink as much as i used to but as i sat there i wondered about calling him out on some of it.
i didn't.
which gets me back to the wondering part, the conversation, how do you call out a family member or a friend about racists comments without ruining an otherwise good relationship? can doing that actually be helpful, can we change their minds? this forum and others tell me no.
then i though about how we say that the muslim community needs to fix itself and they need to call out the radicals within their mist.
maybe , just wondering, but maybe the conversation needs to start with white americans too.
next round is on me
cheers
Good post Brer Hemp, I think you nailed it. It starts within every individual. Unfortunately racist corruption starts in childhood, so will always be transmitted to the next generation, as adults are seldom cured of this disease.
As far as calling people on it, when people make racist comments or jokest they are fishing for a response to see if you will join in the psychological cancer, it is a disease that thrives on silence trying to spread. If you comply with silence it grows. So a response is called for. I have found the best approach is just a quick cool "racism makes me uncomfortable, way i see it we are all just the human race" direct shot, or some one-liner, without any judgement attached, load the bong up for them or hand them a beer and move on to another subject.
You can't expect people to change, but at least they won't make those comments or jokes with you any more. And they know it is inappropriate, and might think twice before spreading their sickness to others. Don't let it pass by.
I called out a friend with a "joke" I came up with, worked good:
"Why did Negroes have to ride in the back of the bus?"
then have them guess a few times, feed them plenty rope. Encourage their worst responses.
then:
"Because in the Reconstruction Era after the Civil War there was an extreme backlash by whites against the free Negro, which led to the Jim Crow laws, whose purpose was total separation of the races in all aspects of society. Despite the Civil Rights movement and integration, these attitudes persist into the present day."
I've been faced with that situation once. Approached by a guy in a parking garage in Atlanta. I don't know what he had on him, might have been nothing but I felt threatened. one look at the weapon that I pulled from my hip holster was all it took to get him away and me to my car. I hope that it never comes up again but i will be prepared, as long as I'm allowed, if it ever comes up again.
Unfortunately, no statistics kept on the frequency of this type of scenario. I'm a firm believer that more guns in the RIGHT hands (like yours) would certainly reduce crime.
What's the next argument? Oh yeah... there are enough laws on the books already. They don't stop criminals from getting guns.
And I'll scratch my head wondering why evolution hasn't effectively removed full blown idiots from the face of the Earth.
1. Good point.
2. Like those who think a few more gun laws on top of what we already have would have prevented this tragedy, for instance?
Guns are intimate metal objects, but the first impulse is always to blame the object. If too many people are writing hot checks, do we start trying to ban pens?
What's the next argument? Oh yeah... there are enough laws on the books already. They don't stop criminals from getting guns.
And I'll scratch my head wondering why evolution hasn't effectively removed full blown idiots from the face of the Earth.
1. Good point.
2. Like those who think a few more gun laws on top of what we already have would have prevented this tragedy, for instance?
Guns are intimate metal objects, but the first impulse is always to blame the object. If too many people are writing hot checks, do we start trying to ban pens?
Nobody blames the object. They blame the ease that people who should not own the object are able to buy the object.
In the 1950's you could buy a gun in a hardware store, the Sears catalog, even some gas stations. No fingerprints, no background check, no waiting period. Total amount of mass shootings in the 1950's? One.
Obviously there are other factors at play besides the ease of getting a firearm.
But go ahead and keep blaming the object....
[Edited on 6/22/2015 by alloak41]
In the 1950's you could buy a gun in a hardware store, the Sears catalog, even some gas stations. No fingerprints, no background check, no waiting period. Total amount of mass shootings in the 1950's? One.
Obviously there are other factors at play besides the ease of getting a firearm.
But go ahead and keep blaming the object....
[Edited on 6/22/2015 by alloak41]
As was just stated in the post previous to yours, no one blames the object, its the ease at which the object falls into the hands of people who would use it for evil intentions. UK firearm related fatalities per 100,000 residents :0.25. In the US its 10.24. What's the difference in the two countries?
Hey, I've got an idea. Let's give anyone who wants one a nuclear weapon, after a quick background check for prior arrests. Should make everyone safer, right?
Melt the guns. Take them away. Ban semi automatics, ban handguns, ban a certain type of magazine clip, ban assault style weapons, ban this, ban that. None of these comments and commonly heard solutions have anything to do with the ease of obtaining a firearm. They call for bans, and we hear it constantly. It's all over this thread.
That's not blaming the object? If the object is not to blame, why call for banning them, melting them down, taking them away?
This discussion has taken place word for word many times in recent years -- 32 dead in W.Va college massacre, more dead in Denver movie theatre massacre -- going back to Columbine, Kip Kinkel etc....
...and will take place many more times in the future
as long as there are guns, massacres will occur -- the human track record, aka history, proves it
I still say, the people who commit these crimes forfeit their right to "due process" "right to a legal trial" .... Neo-Nazi skinheads, KKK types, types who kill in the name of racial supremacy -- isn't that what Hitler was all about?
furnishing these people with rights only makes it worse for the loved ones of the victims
UK firearm related fatalities per 100,000 residents :0.25. In the US its 10.24. What's the difference in the two countries?
The UK has a lower suicide rate and is only 3% black?
UK firearm related fatalities per 100,000 residents :0.25. In the US its 10.24. What's the difference in the two countries?
The UK has a lower suicide rate and is only 3% black?
Try again.
But let's be clear. At some point, we as a country will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries.
Let's be clear. This is an absolute and total LIE.
This happens in every advanced country? Really?
In the 1950's you could buy a gun in a hardware store, the Sears catalog, even some gas stations. No fingerprints, no background check, no waiting period. Total amount of mass shootings in the 1950's? One.
Obviously there are other factors at play besides the ease of getting a firearm.
But go ahead and keep blaming the object....
[Edited on 6/22/2015 by alloak41]
As was just stated in the post previous to yours, no one blames the object, its the ease at which the object falls into the hands of people who would use it for evil intentions. UK firearm related fatalities per 100,000 residents :0.25. In the US its 10.24. What's the difference in the two countries?
Hey, I've got an idea. Let's give anyone who wants one a nuclear weapon, after a quick background check for prior arrests. Should make everyone safer, right?
Roof shouldn't have been able to purchase a gun. He posted his Manifesto in February and by the time he purchased the gun in April he had been arrested for a felony. This assumes the reports are accurate that his parents gave him the money and not the gun for his birthday and he purchased the gun himself.
Melt the guns. Take them away. Ban semi automatics, ban handguns, ban a certain type of magazine clip, ban assault style weapons, ban this, ban that. None of these comments and commonly heard solutions have anything to do with the ease of obtaining a firearm. They call for bans, and we hear it constantly. It's all over this thread.
That's not blaming the object? If the object is not to blame, why call for banning them, melting them down, taking them away?
This conversation is far too intelligent for you to take a meaningful part in it. Please stop. Thanks.
