Was cleaning out my hoard of old magazines and realized I had never read this story in an old RS magazine
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/john-f-kennedys-vision-of-peace-20131120?page=2
The more I read about JFK the more I realize what a great man and a Great President he was for the short time he ran this country.
He saved this country from a Nuclear war by refusing to give in to the hawks in his administration and negotiated with the Soviet Union in a time when many were pushing for a confrontation.
Funny how others in Washington, including the military, were calling him a coward for not attacking Russia.
Sounds similar to the criticism Obama is getting now over his handling of the Middle East IMHO.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
How old are you, just curious?
How old are you, just curious?
Why do you ask?
Because it is easy to paint history in a more favorable light as it becomes, well, history.
I am 52, too young to have known the conditions during JFK's time, but I was curious some time ago, so started asking older folks what their recollections were.
I heard a ton of stuff that isn't in the history books about JFK, like how he and his family were not well liked across the board, in this country, as some history suggests.
I know the Oliver Stone movie was Hollywood fiction, but there is a scene in that movie (if memory serves) right when his assassination is reported, from a bar, where several patrons exclaim "good, I'm glad the sonofabitch is dead" or something to that affect. This really shook me as I (fed by favorable history) "assumed" everyone thought he was one of the greatest.
I was in third grade when he was assassinated and I was in class when it was announced over the P.A. My teacher was a young woman who started crying.
The Kennedy's were not a well liked family in general back then IMHO. Bobby Kennedy might have been one of the most hated people in Washington when he was Attorney General from what I have read. I think one of the reason's JFK was disliked was because he was a pacifist before there was really a pacifist movement spurred on by the Vietnam war. Not a surprise to me that a conservative Joe Plummer sitting in a bar would hate him so I would not base whether he was a good President on that.
Back then the Cold War was heating up and Kennedy wanted to work with Khrushchev to normalize relations through negotiation and wanted to end our involvement in Vietnam which was very unpopular in Washington. I am sure you have read the conspiracy theories that this was one of the reasons he was assassinated and that the U.S. intelligence community had a hand in it.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
Was cleaning out my hoard of old magazines and realized I had never read this story in an old RS magazine
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/john-f-kennedys-vision-of-peace-20131120?page=2
The more I read about JFK the more I realize what a great man and a Great President he was for the short time he ran this country.
He saved this country from a Nuclear war by refusing to give in to the hawks in his administration and negotiated with the Soviet Union in a time when many were pushing for a confrontation.
Funny how others in Washington, including the military, were calling him a coward for not attacking Russia.
Sounds similar to the criticism Obama is getting now over his handling of the Middle East IMHO.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
The two situations couldn't possibly be more different.
I was in third grade when he was assassinated and I was in class when it was announced over the P.A. My teacher was a young woman who started crying.
The Kennedy's were not a well liked family in general back then IMHO. Bobby Kennedy might have been one of the most hated people in Washington when he was Attorney General from what I have read. I think one of the reason's JFK was disliked was because he was a pacifist before there was really a pacifist movement spurred on by the Vietnam war. Not a surprise to me that a conservative Joe Plummer sitting in a bar would hate him so I would not base whether he was a good President on that.
Back then the Cold War was heating up and Kennedy wanted to work with Khrushchev to normalize relations through negotiation and wanted to end our involvement in Vietnam which was very unpopular in Washington. I am sure you have read the conspiracy theories that this was one of the reasons he was assassinated and that the U.S. intelligence community had a hand in it.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
JFK was a PACIFICST? Ok then.. moving on.
I was in third grade when he was assassinated and I was in class when it was announced over the P.A. My teacher was a young woman who started crying.
The Kennedy's were not a well liked family in general back then IMHO. Bobby Kennedy might have been one of the most hated people in Washington when he was Attorney General from what I have read. I think one of the reason's JFK was disliked was because he was a pacifist before there was really a pacifist movement spurred on by the Vietnam war. Not a surprise to me that a conservative Joe Plummer sitting in a bar would hate him so I would not base whether he was a good President on that.
Back then the Cold War was heating up and Kennedy wanted to work with Khrushchev to normalize relations through negotiation and wanted to end our involvement in Vietnam which was very unpopular in Washington. I am sure you have read the conspiracy theories that this was one of the reasons he was assassinated and that the U.S. intelligence community had a hand in it.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
JFK was a PACIFICST? Ok then.. moving on.
Instead of making a snarky comment how about offering your opinion? He did not cave in to the hawks and force a confrontation with the Soviets and he was planning on getting us out of Vietnam.
O.K. your turn.
Was cleaning out my hoard of old magazines and realized I had never read this story in an old RS magazine
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/john-f-kennedys-vision-of-peace-20131120?page=2
The more I read about JFK the more I realize what a great man and a Great President he was for the short time he ran this country.
He saved this country from a Nuclear war by refusing to give in to the hawks in his administration and negotiated with the Soviet Union in a time when many were pushing for a confrontation.
Funny how others in Washington, including the military, were calling him a coward for not attacking Russia.
Sounds similar to the criticism Obama is getting now over his handling of the Middle East IMHO.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
The two situations couldn't possibly be more different.
Really? Both did not cave in to the hawks and commit a knee jerk reaction by getting us deeper into conflicts we have no business in being involved in.
Now your turn.
I was in third grade when he was assassinated and I was in class when it was announced over the P.A. My teacher was a young woman who started crying.
The Kennedy's were not a well liked family in general back then IMHO. Bobby Kennedy might have been one of the most hated people in Washington when he was Attorney General from what I have read. I think one of the reason's JFK was disliked was because he was a pacifist before there was really a pacifist movement spurred on by the Vietnam war. Not a surprise to me that a conservative Joe Plummer sitting in a bar would hate him so I would not base whether he was a good President on that.
Back then the Cold War was heating up and Kennedy wanted to work with Khrushchev to normalize relations through negotiation and wanted to end our involvement in Vietnam which was very unpopular in Washington. I am sure you have read the conspiracy theories that this was one of the reasons he was assassinated and that the U.S. intelligence community had a hand in it.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
JFK was a PACIFICST? Ok then.. moving on.
There was a recent in detail biography of Kennedy's last 100 or 300 days in office. Painted a picture of a President who matured after the mis-handling of the Cuban Missile crisis. Apparently nuclear disarmament was becoming his cause as he was terrified for his kids. So he was moving that way. Book kind of said that the Civil Rights legislation would not have moved as quickly if Johnson didn't come into office.
I don't know that JFK was ever a pacifist by definition, but you could say that he was becoming a peace activist. His speech at American University in June of 1963 was where he laid out his vision for peace and represented the evolution of his thinking. That it came at the height of the cold war made it even more of a departure than most of us who are too young to have lived through it in person might imagine (I was born in in 66).
You can watch it on the JFK Library site here:
http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/BWC7I4C9QUmLG9J6I8oy8w.aspx
There are so many great quotes from that speech, many of which seemed "pie in the sky" to many people at the time, and maybe seems even more so in today's world of Al Queda and ISIS and [insert terror group name here]...
"First examine our attitude towards peace itself. Too many of us think it is impossible. Too many think it is unreal. But that is a dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is inevitable, that mankind is doomed, that we are gripped by forces we cannot control. We need not accept that view. Our problems are manmade; therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."
Here is an analysis of that speech that I think is interesting because it comes from unlikely source, Scientific American:
Anyway, was JFK a pacifist? IMO that label doesn't apply, but I would think that his vision for a peaceful world has appeal to a pacifist. Too bad he was dead 5 months after this speech, the country and world could potentially be a safer place today had he been re-elected.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by gondicar]
O.K. maybe he did not meet the strict definition of a pacifist but hopefully you all get where I am coming from with out splitting hairs. He handled the Cuban Missile Crisis without starting a war with the Soviet Union, as the hawks in the Government wanted, and he was planning on getting us out of Vietnam which are two pretty major conflicts. He believed in diplomacy first from what I have read.
As the Scientific America article states he was not exactly a pacifist but as close to one as you can come compared to most of the Presidents of our age.
I see a parallel with what Obama is going through now as he is being labeled a coward for avoiding military escalation in the Middle East by the hawks just as JFK was in his time. Not exactly the same for sure but Obama is fighting off the hawks of our time right now.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
He did not cave in to the hawks and force a confrontation with the Soviets...
Actually he did. It was called Bay of Pigs. But he did learn to question his advisors after that.
He did not cave in to the hawks and force a confrontation with the Soviets...
Actually he did. It was called Bay of Pigs. But he did learn to question his advisors after that.
True but that operation was initiated under Eisenhower and JFK was guaranteed it would succeed so he reluctantly approved it. According to RFK Jr.'s article on his uncle the hawks purposely lied to him hoping to force his hand into a bigger military intervention.
But you are correct he learned not to trust the Military and the Intelligence Agencies after that.
I was in third grade when he was assassinated and I was in class when it was announced over the P.A. My teacher was a young woman who started crying.
The Kennedy's were not a well liked family in general back then IMHO. Bobby Kennedy might have been one of the most hated people in Washington when he was Attorney General from what I have read. I think one of the reason's JFK was disliked was because he was a pacifist before there was really a pacifist movement spurred on by the Vietnam war. Not a surprise to me that a conservative Joe Plummer sitting in a bar would hate him so I would not base whether he was a good President on that.
Back then the Cold War was heating up and Kennedy wanted to work with Khrushchev to normalize relations through negotiation and wanted to end our involvement in Vietnam which was very unpopular in Washington. I am sure you have read the conspiracy theories that this was one of the reasons he was assassinated and that the U.S. intelligence community had a hand in it.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
JFK was a PACIFICST? Ok then.. moving on.
Instead of making a snarky comment how about offering your opinion? He did not cave in to the hawks and force a confrontation with the Soviets and he was planning on getting us out of Vietnam.
O.K. your turn.
I am a big admirer of JFK and how he handled the Cuban Missile Crisis. But really the last thing on earth he was was a Pacificst. The very last thing.
Was cleaning out my hoard of old magazines and realized I had never read this story in an old RS magazine
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/john-f-kennedys-vision-of-peace-20131120?page=2
The more I read about JFK the more I realize what a great man and a Great President he was for the short time he ran this country.
He saved this country from a Nuclear war by refusing to give in to the hawks in his administration and negotiated with the Soviet Union in a time when many were pushing for a confrontation.
Funny how others in Washington, including the military, were calling him a coward for not attacking Russia.
Sounds similar to the criticism Obama is getting now over his handling of the Middle East IMHO.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
The two situations couldn't possibly be more different.
Really? Both did not cave in to the hawks and commit a knee jerk reaction by getting us deeper into conflicts we have no business in being involved in.
Now your turn.
Ok here goes.
JFK was faced with a situation where any action he took could have led to nuclear war. He was fully prepared to do it and no doubt would have if the Soviets didn't see sense and back down.
Obama is faced with a situation where he is simply caving in to whatever Iran wants and is taking action that will ultimately let them get nuclear weapons. He is doing so with NO immediate threat of nuclear anihilation.
It would be the equivalent of JFK saying to the Soviets "Ok we will let you keep your nukes in Cuba as long as you sign this agreement not to use them."
I was in third grade when he was assassinated and I was in class when it was announced over the P.A. My teacher was a young woman who started crying.
The Kennedy's were not a well liked family in general back then IMHO. Bobby Kennedy might have been one of the most hated people in Washington when he was Attorney General from what I have read. I think one of the reason's JFK was disliked was because he was a pacifist before there was really a pacifist movement spurred on by the Vietnam war. Not a surprise to me that a conservative Joe Plummer sitting in a bar would hate him so I would not base whether he was a good President on that.
Back then the Cold War was heating up and Kennedy wanted to work with Khrushchev to normalize relations through negotiation and wanted to end our involvement in Vietnam which was very unpopular in Washington. I am sure you have read the conspiracy theories that this was one of the reasons he was assassinated and that the U.S. intelligence community had a hand in it.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
JFK was a PACIFICST? Ok then.. moving on.
There was a recent in detail biography of Kennedy's last 100 or 300 days in office. Painted a picture of a President who matured after the mis-handling of the Cuban Missile crisis. Apparently nuclear disarmament was becoming his cause as he was terrified for his kids. So he was moving that way. Book kind of said that the Civil Rights legislation would not have moved as quickly if Johnson didn't come into office.
Ronald Reagan was also a huge proponent of nuclear disarmament (not unilateral of course). No one would ever accuse him of being a pacifist. Supporting nuclear arms reduction is not pacifism.
Bottom line with JFK? He sought a peaceful world and like most at the time was very disturbed by the threat of nuckear anihilation. That said at no point did he ever shy away from confronting the Soviets on their immorality. Recall his famous Berlin Speech not too long before his death. As some have noted here, weakness as in the Bay of Pigs invited the danger of the Missile Crisis. Strength and willingness to confront and stand up to the Soviets led to mutual respect and a thawing of relations. The same was true during Reagan's time.
There is a mischaracterization of the Missile Crisis. It was not a confrontation betwen Hawks and Doves. At no point was the permission of missiles in Cuba ever an option. Had the Soviets not wisely climbed down an attack WOULD have happened. It's just that the hawks (which included most of the Excom group he put together) felt that the failure to attack immediately would lead to the arming of the missiles and the end of the ability to remove them. JFK gambled that if he gave Kruschev a secret out he would take it. At the same time he created a blockade which was an act of war in and of itself (He called it a Quarantine so the Soviets could avoid the need to respond). But there was no apeasement and no rewarding of Soviet agression like Iran is being rewarded for its intrasigence today. Rather JFK made the options perfectly clear, war or back down, and the Soviets backed down. Of course we know that the U.S. did offer something secretly, the removal of obsolete missiles from Turkey. That was the carrot. The stick was the threat of military action which was real and which Kruschev clearly believed.
I was in third grade when he was assassinated and I was in class when it was announced over the P.A. My teacher was a young woman who started crying.
The Kennedy's were not a well liked family in general back then IMHO. Bobby Kennedy might have been one of the most hated people in Washington when he was Attorney General from what I have read. I think one of the reason's JFK was disliked was because he was a pacifist before there was really a pacifist movement spurred on by the Vietnam war. Not a surprise to me that a conservative Joe Plummer sitting in a bar would hate him so I would not base whether he was a good President on that.
Back then the Cold War was heating up and Kennedy wanted to work with Khrushchev to normalize relations through negotiation and wanted to end our involvement in Vietnam which was very unpopular in Washington. I am sure you have read the conspiracy theories that this was one of the reasons he was assassinated and that the U.S. intelligence community had a hand in it.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
JFK was a PACIFICST? Ok then.. moving on.
There was a recent in detail biography of Kennedy's last 100 or 300 days in office. Painted a picture of a President who matured after the mis-handling of the Cuban Missile crisis. Apparently nuclear disarmament was becoming his cause as he was terrified for his kids. So he was moving that way. Book kind of said that the Civil Rights legislation would not have moved as quickly if Johnson didn't come into office.
Ronald Reagan was also a huge proponent of nuclear disarmament (not unilateral of course). No one would ever accuse him of being a pacifist. Supporting nuclear arms reduction is not pacifism.
I guess you caught my poor language usage; the point I was making that he was not Hawkish rather than being a pacifist
I was in third grade when he was assassinated and I was in class when it was announced over the P.A. My teacher was a young woman who started crying.
The Kennedy's were not a well liked family in general back then IMHO. Bobby Kennedy might have been one of the most hated people in Washington when he was Attorney General from what I have read. I think one of the reason's JFK was disliked was because he was a pacifist before there was really a pacifist movement spurred on by the Vietnam war. Not a surprise to me that a conservative Joe Plummer sitting in a bar would hate him so I would not base whether he was a good President on that.
Back then the Cold War was heating up and Kennedy wanted to work with Khrushchev to normalize relations through negotiation and wanted to end our involvement in Vietnam which was very unpopular in Washington. I am sure you have read the conspiracy theories that this was one of the reasons he was assassinated and that the U.S. intelligence community had a hand in it.
[Edited on 5/18/2015 by Bill_Graham]
JFK was a PACIFICST? Ok then.. moving on.
Yes he was.
Six weeks before his death, on October 11th, 1963, JFK bypassed his own National Security Council and had Bundy issue National Security Action Memorandum 263, making official policy the withdrawal from Vietnam of the bulk of U.S. military personnel by the end of 1965, beginning with "1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963." On November 14th, 1963, a week before Dallas, he announced at a press conference that he was ordering up a plan for "how we can bring Americans out of there."
The Vietnamese aren't fighting for themselves. We're the ones doing the fighting. After I come back from Texas, that's going to change. There's no reason for us to lose another man over there. Vietnam is not worth another American life."
Remark: if he was a war monger, he would have wanted to stay there. The war was not even the reason he was killed. Jackie said it in video from the car, "they got him". He was going to tell the American people about the Federal Reserve Bank and that the country did not have the gold to back up the money we use. it was for THAT reason he was killed. By who? The power elite who run things, they were not going to tolerate someone changing their lifestyles. Fast forward to the Wall Street crises where Congress was told if they did not vote for the bailouts martial law would be implemented on US streets. You know who really holds those mortgages that people defaulted on, that same group of people through it's subsidiaries.
http://ecclesia.org/forum/uploads/bondservant/jfkP.pdf
[Edited on 5/22/2015 by gina]
hawk/dove, war-monger/pacifist...
None of that mattered -- he was Cmdr in Chief of the armed forces (army/navy/air forces/marines/coast guard), so he had to take a hawkish 'stance' wearing that hat
but, like most people, he favored a war-less world, and spoke eloquently as a 'pacifist' -- "we all want the best for our children -- we all breath the same air -- and we are all mortal"
striking a balance between hawk-and-dove, freedom and communism, to the satisfaction of all resulting in a happy, strife-free world, was (and remains) an unrealistic expectation -- JFK knew that & did his best -- his vision of peace was tempered by war
hawk/dove, war-monger/pacifist...
None of that mattered -- he was Cmdr in Chief of the armed forces (army/navy/air forces/marines/coast guard), so he had to take a hawkish 'stance' wearing that hat
but, like most people, he favored a war-less world, and spoke eloquently as a 'pacifist' -- "we all want the best for our children -- we all breath the same air -- and we are all mortal"
striking a balance between hawk-and-dove, freedom and communism, to the satisfaction of all resulting in a happy, strife-free world, was (and remains) an unrealistic expectation -- JFK knew that & did his best -- his vision of peace was tempered by war
Precisely. But he was also as was Reagan later, a strong foe of international Communism which clearly stood as the greatest threat to peace. As Reagan also demonstrated one can be a strong and passionate foe of something without immediately going to war against it.
