We've had a few threads on this over the years.
Back on the table, what do you think, what should be in it, what should not be in it?
We can keep it light for easy discussion or get deep in the weeds if that is where we want to take it.
I think the Democrat proposal is too broad and too expensive, there are however vocal representatives on the left who think the White House's plan is woefully too small.
I also think the Republican proposal is too small from what I can tell. I especially come to this conclusion since one of President Trump's budget proposals had a $900 billion plan (we won't talk about the sincerity of their funding mechanism) and this Congress had come forward with something that is a little under $700 billion? If they saw the need for $900 billion just a few short years ago, why is it less now?
This is one of those issues were there actually is universal agreement, or as close as can be expected, that some level of infrastructure spending is needed, very few if any would disagree. It comes down to the definitions of what should or shouldn't be part of the package. I would really really hate to see it have to go through reconciliation. Will enough members of either side bend to have some things in the bill they don't agree with or leave things out they really want or will it be my way or the highway again.
Any thoughts?
I recently heard a Democrat representative critical of Republican definitions of infrastructure stating "they don't think clean water is part of infrastructure".
A month ago the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee passed a bill out of committee by a 20-0 vote S. 914, the Drinking Water and Wastewater Infrastructure Act of 2021 "to rebuild our nation’s water infrastructure".
That is 10 Republicans right there from that committee.
@nebish The far left Democrats consider good housing, day care, expanded safety nets and more tax payer support and benefits to the working class and poor infrastructure.
It's a debate between socialism and those who only want "traditional" infrastructure, bridges, roads, ports, airports, rail and yes better pipes for our water.
Today we have far left democratic socialists, moderate dems and republicans and far right conservatives that seem to come from a conservative religious perspective with others who seem to be sympathetic to white supremacists. Right now neither of these three groups seem not to have enough members seated to get their agendas passed.
If we get Washington, Douglas Commonwealth then the Dems will have two additional senators and several new representatives but will they be left wing socialists or moderate dems?
Will they join the squad in the Democratic party and call for the abolishment of police departments and support a high taxes, regulated giant socialist welfare state run by a very powerful central government with diminished states rights.
Hey spin Back In The USSR by the Beatles as we march toward our socialist eutopia!!!
Mainstream Dems are not calling for the abolition of police departments.
The same politicians who complain about wealth redistribution and helping with childcare, healthcare, and food complain about socialism and welfare state support continuing major tax breaks to energy companies, subsidizing corporate farming, and corporate welfare in general. Think of how many Fortune 500 companies don't pay taxes.
As far as an infrastructure bill goes, imo we need co-operation and compromise from both sides. Neither side has a monopoly of good ideas and the best things happen when both contribute. Unfortunately, that is impossible in modern Washington DC.
@stormyrider Fortune 500 companies will NEVER pay taxes. They haven't in my 74 years and they won't in the future. Companies such as Nike, FedEx and Archer Daniels Midland paid zero. But if the Biden Administration is successful in raising their tax burden from 21% to 28% expect them to continue to pay zero. Yes they may eventually actually write the IRS a check, but where did they get the money? By charging their customers higher prices.
Proctor and Gamble just announced price increases starting in September on everything...baby products, adult products, most all it's products from Tide to Crest. Kimberly Clark and Coca-Cola also are raising prices.
The reason is higher commodity prices and proposed tax increases.
The huge debt we now have and Biden is asking for another 2 Trillion 300 billion for infrastructure, this makes inflation much more likely which will mean even higher prices.
In 2020 oil consumption dropped to 1995 levels due to Covid 19. The U.S. used 18 million 120 thousand barrels of oil PER DAY in 2020. For all of 2020 we used 6 billion 630 million barrels. The world used 35 billion, 442 million, 913 thousand and 90 barrels.
That breaks down to 199 gallons for every person on earth per year.
How on earth do the oil companies meet that kind of demand. It is a miracle we can pull into a filling station anytime and there is enough to fill your tank.
I wouldn't be for ending oil company subsidies if it interupts their ability to meet demand or raise the price at the pump to 4 dollars a gallon. Last time we had $4 dollar gas most low income people who had an automobile were run off the road. I had to pick up some of my guys then as they couldn't afford to drive and buy groceries and pay rent at the same time.
1- I'd rather my tax dollar go to helping people get health care than to some oil exec's or investors pocket. The recent tax law proved that decreased corporate taxes do not trickle down to the little guy. The investment class in general don't pay their fair share in taxes and they produce nothing, yet their efforts result in them paying less taxes and the little guy getting screwed.
2-I hate to sound flippant, but everything has a down side. I don't want to return to $4 per gallon. Gas prices have as much to do with speculation and the futures market as supply and demand
3-Increased reliance on fossil fuels leads to increased air pollution which results in increased respiratory disease. You may not believe in the negative aspects of climate change, 1/2 of congress doesn't either. The department of defense does and is very concerned about it. They consider it a top threat to global security. This concern started long before the current administration. Possible ramifications include our bases / ports being underwater and increase war over land and food supply.
@stormyrider The U. S. Military is the largest institutional consumer of oil in the world. Every year our armed forces consume more than 100 million barrels of oil to power ships, airplanes, vehicles and ground operations. If you or I consumed that much oil we could drive our car around the world over 4 million times in one year.
Actually the lowering of corporate taxes to 21 percent from 35 percent made American corporations much more competitive internationally spurring expansion, better pay and more people hired. Remember before the Covid 19 pandemic the American economy was really humming. Unemployed was at historic lows for everyone including African Americans, Hispanics and women and wages were up. That is why Biden, who doesn't believe in taxes being as low as Trump who paid $700.00 one year recently which is a steal for a billionaire but Biden and his team admitted that returning to 35 percent ( many Dems want it higher than that. Sanders up to 70 percent) so Biden is going to ask congress to only go up to 28 percent to keep American corporations more competitive around the world. And these trade deals that sent millions of American blue color jobs to other countries so greedy corporations could get their stuff built for $2 dollars an hour instead of paying $24 here in the US.
As to climate change, we won't see Miami under water in our lifetime and corporate america is seeing money making opportunities in reducing CO2. Occidental Petroleum is going into the carbon capture business and so is Exxonmobil. It's doubtful the grid can meet the tremendous increase in demand from wind and solar only so carbon capture and nuclear will be in the mix. BP and Royal Dutch Shell are the leaders in installing wind power in Europe for electricity and they are installing charging stations at their filling stations. BP will make money if you fill up with gas or recharge an electric vehicle.
Pratt and Whitney has an aircraft engine out now that reduces CO2. Delta Airlines already has 49 jets with this new technology and over 150 jets ordered from Airbus. When one adds the new aviation fuel to this engine, the CO2 drops from a 20 percent reduction to 80 percent.
The US clearly needs to improve infrastructure, no question. I think updating the power grid and water availability in the west need to be top priorities. I'm not so concerned with highways. I would love to see high speed rail like the rest of the civilized world has, but it just seems like the US can't pull it off for some reason.
I have no problem increasing the corporate tax rates to do it. The whole fear that it will lead to higher prices is mostly nonsense. If a business could raise prices to increase their profits, they already would. It's the law of supply and demand. If a business needs to raise their prices a bit to cover a tax increase, well ok...but I'd they try to increase prices by, let's say 10%, well most of those extra dollars are going to CEO bonuses and shareholders, and not to the IRS. It will be just another shameful excuse to increase profits and shift the blame for it.
One concern I have is not even as it relates to debt, but just the sheer numbers of the spending and relief packages and how much overlap and inefficiencies are in them.
There is money from 2020 covid relief packages that hasn't been spent or accounted for yet - maybe it isn't needed, can that be reallocated?
The 2021 $1.9 trillion covid relief bill "The American Rescue Plan" will distribute money across the county. Youngstown Ohio is set to get $88 million over the next 2 years. The Mayor and city officials really do not know how or where it will be spent. There are many things it could be spent on, and infrastructure projects has been a popular area that keeps being suggested. That is with covid relief money, or so we were told that is what that money was supposed to be for....
...and now we have an actual infrastructure bill, which the White House calls "The American Jobs Plan" that is another 2 trillion piled on top of everything else.
A few of the things that I picked out which do not fit the traditional infrastructure definition and then beyond this there are 10s and 10s of billion spread around here or there to spur certain industries and job creation outside of what normally would be considered the infrastructure of the county. $688 billion below that I'm sure Republicans won't support as not being critical in their mind of infrastructure:
$400 billion for community and in-home healthcare
$213 billion for housing projects plus $40 more billion for public housing
$25 billion for child care facility expansion and upgrades
$10 billion for "Civilian Climate Corp"
And yet there is news of another multi-trillion dollar spending plan on the horizon, the forthcoming "American Families Plan" which the Washington Post as at $1.8 trillion with hundreds of additional billions for child care and pre-K.
All the trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars, not the normal fiscal budgets, but additional what at times seems like endless trillion dollar relief and aid and investment plans. Man, this is all a **** ton of money!
The Biden White House Plan (which Congress would carve up and add in all their own stuff anyway, but here it is):
The Republican Plan:
The federal government is spending money and adding red ink now at an incredible amount. I've even received some of the money, what, three times.
The infrastructure bill before congress now from Biden is 2 Trillion 300 billion and I saw AOC and Bernie Sanders and Ed Markey, very left Democrats,and they claim it is not near enough. It needs to be 10 trillion.
But the usual suspects in the Republican party say 585 billion is the right number and all this spending and debt will trigger inflation like never before.
10 trillion on infrastructure or 585 billion?
High speed rail would be a great option to flying for Atlanta to New York or Washington, D. C. to Boston but not New York to Los Angeles. Even if the high speed rail train was a non stop express it would take close to two days at 290 miles an hour.
Friday some of the far left Democrats announced they want Biden to ban gasoline and diesel vehicles by 2035. Guess the Hell's Angles will be on electric motorcycles then!!!
The more they ban the more likely they loose to the Republicans in 2024. But they say if the can make Washington, DC and Puerto Rico states, ban the filibuster and pack the Supreme Court, the right wing politicians will be blocked for decades and the left can finally remake this country into a place that lifts up the poor and people of color up and pushes the rich and large corporations to the back of the bus to use her expression. The Socialists States of America???
The deep red states may rebel then and become violent.
Perhaps we need to split into two different countries with a giant border wall and check points between the two, similar to how it was in Germany after WW2..
You then pick where to live.
I think all the stuff in Biden's plan needs to be done, sooner or later. Can we afford it all now? Probably not.
Like I said, I think raising corporate taxes or eliminating loopholes for the top 1% is fair game (and should be done)
We need both parties to sit down and come to a compromise, which unfortunately isn't going to happened.
The other thing that won't happen is the total ban on gas / diesel vehicles. The far left does not run the Dems.
@stormyrider Biofuels will allow the military and the aviation industry to clean up. Carbon capture will help tremendously too in addition to a growing market for electric vehicles and all electric new buildings and houses.
Unfortunately the far left doesn't want biofuel or carbon capture as they want to punish the fossil fuel industry and indeed they talk about them as if they are selling drugs on school playgrounds. Bernie Sanders recently repeated his position that fossil fuel companies and their executives should be criminally charged for all the damage they have done to the planet.
But as you said and thank the Lord, the far left does not run the Democrat party.
I am a supporter of moderate Democrats. When I was young and in my early 20's I usually voted Republican because so many Democrats were so racist. George Wallace, Richard Russell, Robert Byrd etc.
Here is Lyndon Johnson on infrastructure!
One concern I have is not even as it relates to debt, but just the sheer numbers of the spending and relief packages and how much overlap and inefficiencies are in them.
There is money from 2020 covid relief packages that hasn't been spent or accounted for yet - maybe it isn't needed, can that be reallocated?
The 2021 $1.9 trillion covid relief bill "The American Rescue Plan" will distribute money across the county. Youngstown Ohio is set to get $88 million over the next 2 years. The Mayor and city officials really do not know how or where it will be spent. There are many things it could be spent on, and infrastructure projects has been a popular area that keeps being suggested. That is with covid relief money, or so we were told that is what that money was supposed to be for....
...and now we have an actual infrastructure bill, which the White House calls "The American Jobs Plan" that is another 2 trillion piled on top of everything else.
A few of the things that I picked out which do not fit the traditional infrastructure definition and then beyond this there are 10s and 10s of billion spread around here or there to spur certain industries and job creation outside of what normally would be considered the infrastructure of the county. $688 billion below that I'm sure Republicans won't support as not being critical in their mind of infrastructure:
$400 billion for community and in-home healthcare
$213 billion for housing projects plus $40 more billion for public housing
$25 billion for child care facility expansion and upgrades
$10 billion for "Civilian Climate Corp"
And yet there is news of another multi-trillion dollar spending plan on the horizon, the forthcoming "American Families Plan" which the Washington Post as at $1.8 trillion with hundreds of additional billions for child care and pre-K.
All the trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars, not the normal fiscal budgets, but additional what at times seems like endless trillion dollar relief and aid and investment plans. Man, this is all a **** ton of money!
Well as the late, great Barry Goldwater once said, "A million here and a million there and it all adds up."
Just to give an idea about how much a trillion is. If you count a dollar a second, it will take 31,780+- years to count. Now that is a ^%&@(*! long time!
@stratdal Goldwater also said " They are talking about spending a billion here and a billion there and the next thing you know they are talking about spending some real money".
AOC, Bernie Sanders and recently Mayor de Blasio in New York City when commenting on all the money those on the left want to spend on climate change, income inequality, public housing, day care and child care and guaranteed $20.00 an hour jobs provided by the federal government, " This is the richest country in human history. There is plenty of money here. The problem is it's in the wrong hands".
Sounds like Fidel Castro. If you go down to Miami and Little Cuba and give just a hint of socialism, you are out. Socialism to American Cubans is fighting words.
we could drive our car around the world over 4 million times in one year.
Road Trip!!!! I call shotgun.
Friday some of the far left Democrats announced they want Biden to ban gasoline and diesel vehicles by 2035.
The other thing that won't happen is the total ban on gas / diesel vehicles. The far left does not run the Dems.
California has announced it. As have some other countries. Yet we are led to believe the market is leading us to the EV revolution when really governments are forcing markets to only offer what those governments want. So much organic demand for EVs by the American consumer. What does it make up, 2% of US auto sales. But we are going to go from 2% to 100% because that is what the government wants you to drive and buy. There 's nothing wrong with EVs I may even choose to own one some day. But it should be my choice. I may also want to continue buying gas or Diesel engine autos. That choice is intolerable.
@nebish New census data shows so many people have left socialist California that it is loosing a seat in the House of Representatives and red state Texas gained one.
Eventually Texas or California or both will leave the union and become an independent country.
The electric grid in the country will have to produce 100 times more electricity than it does now if all cars, trucks, trains and new homes and buildings are all electric.
Imagine how much electricity will be used with millions of cars and light trucks charging overnight!!!
Low CO2 biofule for internal combustion engine is the answer along with carbon capture. But the environmental lobby on the left are opposed to these measures because it allows fossil fuel companies to continue. They want them run out entirely for the damage they claim they have done to the planet.
I think Republicans should consider the childcare program for Americans that are working, only Americans that are working. If the intent is really to help more workers get into the labor market and if providing cost relief and availability of childcare can increase the participation rate then it is a worthy objective. I do worry about how it would impact cost of said childcare. What did John McCain use to say about free healthcare, something like "you won't believe how expensive it will get when it is free". Expensive for the government, once they create the demand and the deep pockets to pay what the costs go up up and up. Unless they say "here is what we pay for a child of this age per day in this part of the country" and limit it like that.
Not sure if they would do direct payment or tax credits for reimbursement.
Then I wonder, what about families that have their childcare handled by family? My wife watches 3 grand kids on a rotating basis 3 days a week while our kids work. Should she be compensated, better worded, should the parents of the kids, should they receive X amount of money as if they were paying for childcare even though they are getting it for free? I would think the benefit should be given universally right regardless of who is giving the childcare.
Anyway, complicated like everything, but if it can get up the labor participation rate, something the Trump White House was always trying to get up, we need more labor participation, childcare could get us there.
I really like the 15% minimum corporate tax compromise to try and encourage Republican support. Kind of calls them on the spot as well, since it will preserve their work on the 2017 tax cut plan while it gives the Democrats something they want. That is fair and clever compromise.
https://www.reuters.com/business/biden-offers-drop-corporate-tax-hike-proposal-source-2021-06-03/
Obviously Biden and company read my post in the other thread regarding my suggestion of a corporate Alternative Minimum tax rate..lol.....Although I think it should be around 20%...He must have missed that part of my post. 
U.S. senators haggle over funding of $1 trillion infrastructure compromise
WASHINGTON, June 20 (Reuters) - A bipartisan infrastructure plan costing a little over $1 trillion, only about a fourth of what President Joe Biden initially proposed, has been gaining support in the U.S. Senate, but disputes continued on Sunday over how it should be funded.
Biden told reporters last week that he will have a response to the plan as soon as Monday after reviewing it. Twenty-one of the 100 U.S. senators - including 11 Republicans, nine Democrats and one independent who caucuses with Democrats - are working on the framework to rebuild roads, bridges and other traditional infrastructure that sources said would cost $1.2 trillion over eight years.
"President Biden, if you want an infrastructure deal of a trillion dollars, it's there for the taking. You just need to get involved and lead," one of the 21 senators, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, said on Fox News Sunday.
Biden, seeking to fuel growth after the pandemic and address income inequality, had initially proposed about $4 trillion be spent on a broader definition of infrastructure, including fighting climate change and providing care for children and the elderly.
But the White House trimmed the offer to about $1.7 trillion in talks with senators in a bid to win Republican support which will be needed for any plan to get the 60 votes normally required to advance legislation in the Senate.
GAS TAX TUSSLE
Senate Budget Committee Chairman Bernie Sanders, who is working up a far more ambitious infrastructure blueprint of $6 trillion, panned as "bad ideas" some of the revenue-raising provisions the bipartisan group discussed, such as indexing the gas tax to inflation. On CNN's "State of the Union" and NBC's "Meet the Press" on Sunday, Sanders was unclear about whether he could support the bipartisan plan if those were removed.
"If it is regressive taxation, you know, raising the gas tax or a fee on electric vehicles, or the privatization of infrastructure, no I wouldn't support it. But we don't have the details right now," Sanders, an independent who caucuses with Democrats, told NBC.
The White House also has resisted indexing the gas tax to inflation, saying it won't raise taxes on people making less than $400,000 a year.
Senator Rob Portman, the lead Republican working on the bipartisan plan, said Sunday that the gas tax indexing provision might not survive, but then the administration will "need to come forward with some other ideas (for raising revenue) without raising taxes."
Portman charged that the $6 trillion package Sanders is assembling would require "the largest tax increase in American history" to fund it. Sanders wants massive outlays on climate change, healthcare and prescription drugs.
Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said on Sunday that Democrats would push to include dental, hearing and vision coverage in Medicare, the healthcare program for the elderly, as part of Sanders' plan. Speaking in New York, Schumer also said the plan would undo some of former President Donald Trump's tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations.
Graham also denounced Sanders' $6 trillion idea, saying it would be "more money than we spent to win World War Two" and would get pushback from every Republican.Facing such opposition, Sanders' approach would have to be advanced under a special "reconciliation" procedure that allows Senate passage by a simple majority, which the Democrats may have if none of their senators oppose it. Democrats say they are working on two infrastructure "tracks" simultaneously - the bipartisan bill and the reconciliation measure.
Having the gas tax go up with inflation is a decent idea. I would prefer it just go up $.03-.05 per year every year. This way they avoid the fights over wanting to raise it by some larger amount down the line. And it is easier to absorb, it goes up a few pennies every year rather than potentially $.10-20 cents at one time.
If we all benefit from improvements, why don't we all pay something? That is reality. Washington reality is pretending they can hide the costs and tell people they will get something for nothing.
Find the compromise and get some infrastructure package over the finish line. There seems to be atleast 11 Republicans onboard with supporting some $1.2 trillion dollar compromise bill. Or will the Democrats try and get all or nothing? That shouldn't be the way it works.
Some interesting story lines surrounding this the past few days for sure!
To think the President will not sign this bipartisan infrastructure bill that he announced outside the White House without the broader Families Plan (basically everything that was stripped out of the infrastructure bill that wasn't defined as infrastructure) is quite poor leadership in my opinion to the point of dishonest negotiations. Take what you have now and if Democrats want to work towards their other agenda items that is fine, see where it goes and what can be done. But to link the two together...one doesn't pass without the other - he is holding infrastructure spending hostage so he can get the other stuff that was negotiated out of the compromise bill. F cking Washington BS.
Speaking of infrastructure, the collapse of Champlain Towers South near Miami was inevitable unless addressed according to structural engineering reports of damage in 2018 and county officials who noted demonstrable sinking of the building since the 1990s. I'd be worried about just about all those buildings along that area - they were built as quickly as possible in the 1970s on what's essentially sand. Champlain Towers was only 13 stories; anything higher would be worrisome. There's a reason there are height limitations in Miami Beach.
That was horrific alright, the bldg looked like the Murrah bldg after the 1995 OKC detonation - death toll likewise sure to rise
today, 4 dead 1 critical in hot air balloon crash in Albuquerque NM, equally awful & was the aircraft as flawed as the bldg at Surfside 6, Miami Beach
but yes, saw that the politicians hammered out a bipartisan deal on infrastructure, should make Americans happy
Not following the news but know that area of N. Miami well. What I find so odd is that facts are facts - if you build on sand w/inferior materials, you're going to have problems. When you're told by experts there are problems, you act. If you fly unsafe aircraft, a crash is inevitable. So why does it taken superhuman efforts to address a problem like infrastructure? Rhetorical question & I'm sure there are reasons on both sides of the aisle that have everything to do w/politics & nothing to do w/lack of maintenance, planned obsolescence, or end of useful life.
Yes I know what you mean cyclone88 - it shouldn’t take a superhuman effort to address this stuff, but it does
why for instance would someone drive past gates, blinking red lights and bells, to try to beat an oncoming train across the track - especially w/your wife & 4 kids with you
he didn’t make it - parents & 10 year old dead, 3 other kids critical
this was in E. Chicago, IN - in Chicago, IL, sewer water is flowing into the streets after manhole covers blew off after severe weather in another infrastructure collapse - foul, infectious
Some interesting story lines surrounding this the past few days for sure!
To think the President will not sign this bipartisan infrastructure bill that he announced outside the White House without the broader Families Plan (basically everything that was stripped out of the infrastructure bill that wasn't defined as infrastructure) is quite poor leadership in my opinion to the point of dishonest negotiations. Take what you have now and if Democrats want to work towards their other agenda items that is fine, see where it goes and what can be done. But to link the two together...one doesn't pass without the other - he is holding infrastructure spending hostage so he can get the other stuff that was negotiated out of the compromise bill. F cking Washington BS.
This is the BS to which you refer, using 2018 as an example:
The government was initially funded through a series of five temporary continuing resolutions. The final funding package was passed as an omnibus spending bill, the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2018, enacted on March 23, 2018.
Budgets don't actually mean anything anymore.
Florida is riddled with underwater limestone caverns that are or can be permeated with sea water. I don't know and I ain't sayin' that this plays any part in the building collapse. Residents noticed and wondered about water in the parking garages that was present when there had been no rainfall. Back to the original topic of infrastructure - if a 41 year old building can be affected by the wear and tear of daily weather or environmental shifts, one must suspect that so might bridges, dams, roads and other aging public-serving structures. As Bob Dylan pointed out, "everything is broken". FDR isn't always looked upon kindly by historians, but the WPA not only served to create the original highways and facilities, it created some meaningful jobs and lifelong careers. Biden could reboot the WPA and put many Americans in well-paying jobs. As soon as America is ready to go back to work, that is. 😉
There are multiple theories about this building collapse, especially because its sister buildings are said to have been well maintained & don't show signs of the damage noted in 2018. The attorney who sued on behalf of an owner in 2015 to force repair of water damage/concrete exposure in her unit had contacted him as recently as April, 2021 w/pics showing a return of the problem even after the repair. The client & her family weren't there at the time of the collapse & may have moved. Public planning officials approved & approved & approved permission to build & issued occupancy certificates on questionable sites in the 70s & 80s. This isn't an unknown concern in So FL. Money plays a role - the residents of the tower were assessed $100K/unit to make just the repairs suggested by the 2018 report. Who knows if that would be sufficient? Or that owners readily coughed up the amount?
I'm commenting out of ignorance re the current infrastructure debate although I'm aware that the FDR's WPA has frequently been cited as a model. Makes sense to me.
