This whine is just as comical as the first time you made it years ago. Democrats are everything that is wrong with America, Republicans are the embodiment of human perfection. SSDD.
Your words, not mine.
I can see both sides of the argument, to be honest. Whatever way the law goes, one side is going to lose something. In a situation like this, the decision should be made by the people with a vote. Let democracy work. May the losing side show grace, understanding, and acceptance upon defeat. That's how America should be.
This whine is just as comical as the first time you made it years ago. Democrats are everything that is wrong with America, Republicans are the embodiment of human perfection. SSDD.
Your words, not mine.
Alright then.
What exactly should Governor Pence have known before he signed this bill? The rightwingoverse has made it a mantra talking point that the Indiana law exactly mirrors the Federal RFCA (it doesn't) and all the other State RFCAs (it doesn't)...so, did Pence make a mistake by just signing the law, or by signing this particular law?
Are you saying that there is nothing at all wrong with the Indiana law in its current state?
If adding new laws to the books goes towards the heart of the matter as far as the damage that liberals do and the danger of liberal thinking (most definitely your words) then why is this new law a good thing?
This is a great topic. A fun debate! Thanks Bill_Graham.
This is a great topic. A fun debate! Thanks Bill_Graham.
Believe it or not I can see the point of view from both sides on this so I am conflicted in this case which is why I am not participating but thought it would be a fun topic.
I applaud everyone for being civil in this discussion and it has been an interesting read for me. Gives me a lot to think about. 
This whine is just as comical as the first time you made it years ago. Democrats are everything that is wrong with America, Republicans are the embodiment of human perfection. SSDD.
Your words, not mine.
Alright then.
What exactly should Governor Pence have known before he signed this bill? The rightwingoverse has made it a mantra talking point that the Indiana law exactly mirrors the Federal RFCA (it doesn't) and all the other State RFCAs (it doesn't)...so, did Pence make a mistake by just signing the law, or by signing this particular law?
Are you saying that there is nothing at all wrong with the Indiana law in its current state?
If adding new laws to the books goes towards the heart of the matter as far as the damage that liberals do and the danger of liberal thinking (most definitely your words) then why is this new law a good thing?
1. 
2. Pence should have known the firestorm that would result. That it would be used against his party to further the myth that all Republicans are bigoted wacked out holy roller homophobes. The original RFCA was submitted by Chuck Schumer and signed by Bill Clinton. I wouldn't expect the Left to get in much of an uproar over that.
3. Let's put it this way. I'm much more concerned about a law that shuts a business down and fines them $375,000 a day because the EPA designated a drainage ditch running along the back of the property as a wetland area. Or Gibson guitars being dragged through the legal process, held and at gunpoint while inventory was seized, because they used the wrong wood. Or a 9 year old girl getting her lemonade stand on the side of the road shut down for not having the proper permits. Or somebody sitting in jail for five years because they got caught with a marijuana cigarette. The list goes on....
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
I thought you were defending the bill.
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
I thought you were defending the bill.
I'm starting to wish the damn thing was on Hil's email server.
Gone forever.
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
I thought you were defending the bill.
I'm starting to wish the damn thing was on Hil's email server.
Gone forever.
You and the GOP both. 😛
people have been very respectful on this topic compared to some others. I think that reflects the sensitivity of the topic. this is one of those things that is very difficult to find a good answer to. good job to everyone seriously trying to wrap their heads around this.
I just don't see how discriminating against anyone constitutes godly behavior. It goes against everything I understand about love, grace, Jesus, and the new testament. I've been involved in discussions about this topic with several Christians and am extremely disheartened at their stance and responses. Oh well. God is good, love is the answer
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
You are not being honest, either with yourself or with us or both. You have been deriding and denouncing people who have judged the law as bad and are speaking out against it and taking action in hopes of repealing it, yet at the same time you have refused at least 3 attempts by me and others to get your opinion on the law itself. Sorry, but that doesn't add up. You clearly have judged it on some level. Either that, or you are against the people who are against it.
[Edited on 4/1/2015 by gondicar]
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
I thought you were defending the bill.
I'm starting to wish the damn thing was on Hil's email server.
Gone forever.
You and the GOP both. 😛
Me? You know something I don't know??
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
I thought you were defending the bill.
I'm starting to wish the damn thing was on Hil's email server.
Gone forever.
You and the GOP both. 😛
Me? You know something I don't know??
You said you wished this would disappear like the the e-mails on Hillary's e-mail server yes? I am sure the GOP wish's this issue would disappear as well as it makes them look bad as Pence is Republican and you know this will be exploited by the DEMS
Another example from Indiana of a business owner who said the business is not discriminating against anybody...right.
I just don't see how discriminating against anyone constitutes godly behavior. It goes against everything I understand about love, grace, Jesus, and the new testament. I've been involved in discussions about this topic with several Christians and am extremely disheartened at their stance and responses. Oh well. God is good, love is the answer
Good post, Doug.
Sorry to hear of this. It's topics of controversy that reveal what's truly in one's heart & soul.
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
I thought you were defending the bill.
I'm starting to wish the damn thing was on Hil's email server.
Gone forever.
You and the GOP both. 😛
Me? You know something I don't know??
You said you wished this would disappear like the the e-mails on Hillary's e-mail server yes? I am sure the GOP wish's this issue would disappear as well as it makes them look bad as Pence is Republican and you know this will be exploited by the DEMS
10-4. This thing is disastrous, a PR nightmare. Doesn't Pence have handlers? Apparently not very sharp ones. And yesterday Pence was acting surprised at the reaction, meaning he should resign and retire to his cornfield or wherever the hell he came from. Clueless.
4. I haven't really judged the law as being good or bad. I'll let others make that determination.
I thought you were defending the bill.
I'm starting to wish the damn thing was on Hil's email server.
Gone forever.
You and the GOP both. 😛
Me? You know something I don't know??
You said you wished this would disappear like the the e-mails on Hillary's e-mail server yes? I am sure the GOP wish's this issue would disappear as well as it makes them look bad as Pence is Republican and you know this will be exploited by the DEMS
10-4. This thing is disastrous, a PR nightmare. Doesn't Pence have handlers? Apparently not very sharp ones. And yesterday Pence was acting surprised at the reaction, meaning he should resign and retire to his cornfield or wherever the hell he came from. Clueless.
On the other hand, he remains true to his beliefs & convictions. For that I give him credit even if I truly find his beliefs discriminatory & disgusting.
Anyone who has followed Pence certainly knows his views on social issues. This latest action should come as no surprise. Here's but one article.
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/02/21/3317231/mike-pence-marriage/
quote:
I just don't see how discriminating against anyone constitutes godly behavior. It goes against everything I understand about love, grace, Jesus, and the new testament. I've been involved in discussions about this topic with several Christians and am extremely disheartened at their stance and responses. Oh well. God is good, love is the answerGood post, Doug.
Sorry to hear of this. It's topics of controversy that reveal what's truly in one's heart & soul.
I echo this sentiment Doug.
Below is an Op-Ed by Mike Tully in today's Indianapolis Star. The Star, like many midwestern papers, is historically conservative. Here's the editorial:
Recent months have made one thing clear: You can put those Mike Pence for President campaign buttons, if there were any, back in the drawer.
Something else, meantime, is becoming more obvious with each new mistake: Pence was never meant to be a governor. A partisan and dysfunctional Congress that lives on bright line divisions was his home for 12 years, and that's where he belongs — in a place where a person can rise high by talking well and digging in and not really doing much. A place where, for the most part, you are not held accountable for results.
Being a governor is different. It's about being a leader who is forced every day to think pragmatically, who knows that doing no harm is high on the list of requirements, and who understands that the job is at its core about making sure your state's people have a better chance of earning a decent living or getting a great education tomorrow than they do today.
In recent days, Fortune magazine listed former Gov. Mitch Daniels among "the world's 50 greatest leaders." At the same time, Pence, the man who followed Daniels into office, has once again been exposed as a stunningly ineffective leader.
When you have to "clarify" a horribly damaging piece of legislation that you raced to sign, when you dodge a question on national TV about whether discrimination is legal in your state, when you deal your state a crushing economic blow, when you seem incapable of understanding the role you have played in creating this mess — well, that makes clear that you are not in the right job.
And to be clear, this is not just about the "religious freedom" bill fiasco, as bad as it is and as poorly as Pence has performed during the controversy. Let's consider the other malpractice in the governor's office in recent months.
In October, after weeks of work by members within his own administration, Pence quietly killed a grant application that was almost guaranteed to bring Indiana tens of millions of federal dollars for preschool programs. The money would have given thousands of low-income families and at-risk children access to high-quality, life-changing early learning programs.
The governor, caught flat-footed when the story broke, tied his decision to concerns about "strings" attached to the federal money. But time and again he could not offer one specific requirement or string that troubled him. He could not explain why he spiked an application that was little different than one he'd approved a year earlier and that experts on programs for children within his own administration supported.
A few months later, Pence became a national punchline when word leaked that he was attempting to create his own government-run news service. While it has become abundantly clear why he needs such a propaganda machine, the taxpayer-funded effort enraged both the left and the right and was soon spiked.
But to many, that public relations disaster was about more than a bad idea. The real damage, more than one Republican in political circles has told me, was Pence's defense: That he didn't know what staffers housed in his own office had been doing. He not only passed the buck, he cemented an image of an out-to-lunch governor who, perhaps because he was dreaming too many presidential dreams, had little control over his own administration.
And now comes the "religious freedom" bill, which has done damage to Indiana that sadly will linger for years. Pity those corporate leaders trying to lure top talent to Indiana. Or city leaders now facing another obstacle in their way as they bid for hotly contested conventions. Or parents who want their children to stay close by after graduation. Or people who just want to be proud of their state.
Diminishing this as a "perception" problem, as Pence did repeatedly during a news conference Tuesday, was a new example of leadership negligence. And it crystallized a thought that I've had for some time: He is simply not suited to be an executive branch leader. It is not his skill set. He is a talker, not a leader.
INDIANAPOLIS STAR
Tully: Statehouse Republicans embarrass Indiana. Again.
Pence is a thoughtful guy in many ways, but as a politician he is above all an ideologue, one whose actions and distractions have made clear that he doesn't truly understand what it takes to take on the state's massive challenges. He thrived while representing a gerrymandered congressional district, one where he could safely walk an ideological line and live largely in a partisan bubble. He has failed to understand that a governor's job is to represent a much more diverse state.
He said some of the right things Tuesday, such as "I abhor discrimination." Still, some of his top supporters, including one who was among a select few at a private signing ceremony for the "religious freedom" bill, have made clear the goal was to allow businesses to turn away gay customers.
It's a shame, because Pence has at times as governor worked to tone down divisions between the parties. For the most part, he hasn't engaged in the type of rhetoric that, as a congressman, once led him to recklessly tell a friendly partisan crowd that it was time to shut down the government. His speeches as governor have been calm, but the actions have been a disaster.
To be fair, there have been glimpses of hope, moments and actions that suggested Pence was growing into his job. Such as when his team negotiated a Medicaid waiver with the Obama administration that annoyed some on the right even as it opened up health insurance options for thousands of low-income workers in Indiana. Or when he created a preschool program, a small and temporary one, over the objections of some conservatives.
But each step forward has been followed by a colossal mistake: Turning down more significant preschool investments, the state-run news debacle, and now a political crisis that has turned into the most damaging self-inflicted wound many of us have ever seen in Indiana.
And that's just since October.
Comebacks are almost always possible in politics. But for Pence time is getting short. He's had multiples opportunities over the past week to lead. Instead, he has stumbled.
The most remarkable part of this is that he was given a roadmap, designed by Daniels, making clear what Hoosiers wanted. I'm not saying everyone agreed with Daniels' policies, but his focus was at least centered almost always on the right topics. With his famed call for a "truce" on social issues, Daniels showed he understood that issues like the one now on center stage can get in the way of tackling more serious matters.
Daniels was not perfect as governor. But it's worth remembering that only 27 months ago a solid majority of Hoosiers had a sense of pride in their government and in the idea that it had been led for eight years by a big thinker. A big thinker who worried not about being Indiana's pastor but about repairing the state's economic situation.
For Indiana Republicans, it must be particularly hard to accept what has been lost in these past 27 months: The hard-earned mantle of the party of action and the party of ideas. Under Daniels, it was also a party that had made inroads with minority groups and college students.
For Indiana Republicans, that mantle is lost. It was shattered by a governor who never should have given up his seat in Congress. It was shattered by a governor who is in the wrong job, and whose mistakes have cost Indiana dearly.
http://wishtv.com/2015/04/01/rfra-talks-ongoing-solution-expected-thursday/
"In the meantime, the governor wants this settled by the end of the day Thursday, a day when he has plans to leave on an Easter vacation."
Really? That just shows how important this is to Gov. Pence.
Public and industry pressure can work! Indiana political leaders have reportedly reached compromise and are proposing changes to religious freedom law: Refusal of service based on sexual orientation, gender identity would no longer be allowed.
As you probably know, the NCAA has been under some pressure on this due to the Final Four being in Indy this weekend. Here is their response:
Democracy at work.
I can see both sides of the argument, to be honest. Whatever way the law goes, one side is going to lose something. In a situation like this, the decision should be made by the people with a vote. Let democracy work. May the losing side show grace, understanding, and acceptance upon defeat. That's how America should be.
as Christians looking at and living in this world, would you say that our "grace, understanding and acceptance" has been tested?
well they have changed the wording this morning.
"The amendment unveiled Thursday morning prohibits service providers from using the law as a legal defense for refusing to provide services, goods, facilities or accommodations. It also bars discrimination based on race, color, religion, ancestry, age, national origin, disability, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or U.S. military service."
LOL, someone has pointed out that Women's only gym's will now be outlawed because of gender identity and sex.
what a can of worms.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see both sides of the argument, to be honest. Whatever way the law goes, one side is going to lose something. In a situation like this, the decision should be made by the people with a vote. Let democracy work. May the losing side show grace, understanding, and acceptance upon defeat. That's how America should be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------as Christians looking at and living in this world, would you say that our "grace, understanding and acceptance" has been tested?
Tested, yes. Whether we pass or fail has yet to be seen.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see both sides of the argument, to be honest. Whatever way the law goes, one side is going to lose something. In a situation like this, the decision should be made by the people with a vote. Let democracy work. May the losing side show grace, understanding, and acceptance upon defeat. That's how America should be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------as Christians looking at and living in this world, would you say that our "grace, understanding and acceptance" has been tested?
Tested, yes. Whether we pass or fail has yet to be seen.
as Christians looking at and living in this world, would you say that our "grace, understanding and acceptance" has been tested?
I'm a Zen Methodist, not a traditional Christian, who's grace, understanding, and acceptance is challenged everyday. Just being kind is a test. Isn't that the point of life no matter what religion you subscribe?
as Christians looking at and living in this world, would you say that our "grace, understanding and acceptance" has been tested?
I'm a Zen Methodist, not a traditional Christian, who's grace, understanding, and acceptance is challenged everyday. Just being kind is a test. Isn't that the point of life no matter what religion you subscribe?
Who's isn't?
Jesus was a liberal.
I'm not so sure. That abortion thing might have been a deal-breaker. Just guessing.
Remember that bombing of the abortion clinic at the Sea of Galilee? Abortion was a real hot button with those early Christians.
What was the prevalent scientific view of when life begins back then?
I don't think Jesus was a big fan of big government from my reading of his life. It's actually kind of silly to apply modern political concepts to ancient times.
