So before anyone gets wrapped around the axle for the thread title I did a paste and cut from the article headline.
Not surprising Pence is a Republican.
So I am sure there will be plenty of differing opinions on this subject so let's hear them.
Is this discrimination or just an affirmation of religious freedom?
It's discrimination wrapped in religion.
I think it's a political strategy, and he's probably going to be the new golden boy for the Republicans in the next election. I'd love to see it, so I can then watch him get destroyed. If it was a sincere attempt by the Governor to do what he believes is right, then he's just a bigot, plain and simple.
Although, I do support a state's right to make these kinds of decision on their own, if the people get to vote it in or out. Just as I support citizens and businesses to boycott and leave the state. I think there could be some value in creating societies for different groups of people. If you are an ultra-conservative, maybe there should be ultra-conservative states, with ultra-conservative laws, so all the ultra-conservatives can go live there and be happy with one another. And vice-versa with liberals.
As for the law, I don't understand the correlation between religious freedom and selling a product to gays. First, how do you determine if the customer is gay? Second, where in the Bible does it say that it goes against Christian beliefs to associate with homosexuals? How does selling products to gay people prevent you from practicing Christianity? The answer of course is that it doesn't. And refusing service to gays has nothing to do with religious freedom, and everything to do with bigotry.
1st i believe it is an unneeded law.
2nd i don't know why Indiana is being singled out other than the Final 4 is going to be here next week. 19 other states have versions of RFRA and i don't know why their laws are acceptable and Indiana's is not.
3rd i think Pence looked like a fool for going on TV and not being prepared to better explain the law.
a couple of examples where i think it can be used.
A few years back, the people got their panties in a bunch when Muslim cab drivers in Milwaukee refused to carry passengers with alcohol or dogs...even service dogs. They were made to set aside their beliefs if they wanted to continue their profession.
and
Another good example is Pharmacists denying birth control or other medications
It's discrimination wrapped in religion.
Absolutely
It's discrimination wrapped in religion.
Have said it before that I vote primarily based upon social issues. Any wonder why the GOP drapes itself in being the anti party for social issues? Hope this is one of the issues that comes up in the primaries & debates. I'll enjoy hearing the rationalizations coming out of the mouths of bigots. This is far larger than states' rights. Let them tell us what they really think. Furthest one to the right is a winner in their minds.
2nd i don't know why Indiana is being singled out other than the Final 4 is going to be here next week. 19 other states have versions of RFRA and i don't know why their laws are acceptable and Indiana's is not.
Illinois passed a similar law in the 90's - the difference is in Illinois you cannot discriminate against someone for their sexual preference, which trumps the religious rights law. Indiana has no such protection for LGBT people, and Pence says he's not going to do that in Indiana.
the first amendment of the U. S. constitution, passed December 15, 1791 says:
"Third Article:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
I'm sorry to say I live in Indiana. But I'm having a really hard time understanding why the state bothered to pass legislation to "protect religious freedom." Seems like the first amendment would have been good enough.
Quite embarrassing! It's not the first thing that has embarrassed me about living in Indiana for the last 40 yrs!!!!!.....Joe ftom LaPorte, Indiana. Damn shame too, Indiana is actually a pretty nice place.
[Edited on 3/30/2015 by crazyjoe]
2nd i don't know why Indiana is being singled out other than the Final 4 is going to be here next week. 19 other states have versions of RFRA and i don't know why their laws are acceptable and Indiana's is not.
Illinois passed a similar law in the 90's - the difference is in Illinois you cannot discriminate against someone for their sexual preference, which trumps the religious rights law. Indiana has no such protection for LGBT people, and Pence says he's not going to do that in Indiana.
Sang do you know if Indiana is the only state with this law and without statewide protection, I say statewide because some cities in Indiana do have laws against sexual discrimination.
Kansas I think is supposed to pass this same law this week.
Quite embarrassing! It's not the first thing that has embarrassed me about living in Indiana for the last 40 yrs!!!!!.....Joe ftom LaPorte, Indiana. Damn shame too, Indiana is actually a pretty nice place.
[Edited on 3/30/2015 by crazyjoe]
Agreed.
I'm right around the corner in Valparaiso, which is a nice college town about an hour from Chicago.
At first glance, the new Indiana law doesn't look much different than other religious freedom laws, but there's no doubt this is a right-wing republican reaction to Indiana's "loss" over same-sex marriage. There are some notable differences in this law compared to others that are easily googled.
I'm not confident this statute will "legalize" discrimination, but it sure won't chill intolerance.
[Edited on 3/30/2015 by aekdbmoid]
it may be getting easier to google as the days go by but over the weekend it was hard to find exactly how Indiana was different than all of the other states. I read about 10 of the other states laws and the legalese was hard to figure out in some of them. I did notice that South Carolina had the same definition of a person.
in other backroom news, I heard from guy at work whose daughter is concierge at one of the big downtown hotels, that they had lost 26 conventions. one worth $600,000. and that the NFL combine told her unless something happens they prob will not be back next year.
Voting with how one spends their $ can be very effective in changing social policy. The bottom line is, well, the bottom line.
I still think Indiana is being singled out because of the NCAA Tourney. Only 4 of the 19 states with RFRA have nondiscrimination laws protecting gays, lesbians and bisexuals.
"Illinois' RFRA was approved in 1998. But Illinois also passed a same-sex marriage law in 2013 that codifies equal status and protection for couples and their families.
Illinois' Religious Freedom and Marriage Fairness Act at the same time preserved religious rights by explicitly saying religious officials would not be required to solemnize any marriages that went against their beliefs, nor would religious facilities be required to hold such marriage ceremonies."
"States with Religious Freedom Restoration Acts
Alabama, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia.
Religious freedom states that have nondiscrimination laws protecting gays, lesbians and bisexuals: Connecticut, Illinois, New Mexico, Rhode Island.
Religious freedom states with cities or towns that have non-discrimination ordinances that include either sexual orientation and/or gender identity protections with respect to employment and public accommodation: Arizona, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Missouri, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas.
Source: American Civil Liberties Union"
This is one of the sites comparing the Indiana bill with the Federal statute:
This is one of the sites comparing the Indiana bill with the Federal statute:
good article.
Bet they didn't count on this:
Better Article, I may have to support this now. 😛
Who give a crap if other states have the same bigoted law? It doesn't matter if Indiana is the one state being singled out right now. I heard some conservative pundit go off on a rant about why liberals aren't attacking the other states that have the same law. The answer is simple....because those stories weren't publicized. And thanks to the conservatives for pointing it out, because now those other states might start facing the same heat.
"The problem with this statement is that, well, it’s false. That becomes clear when you read and compare those tedious state statutes. If you do that, you will find that the Indiana statute has two features the federal RFRA—and most state RFRAs—do not. First, the Indiana law explicitly allows any for-profit business to assert a right to “the free exercise of religion.” The federal RFRA doesn’t contain such language, and neither does any of the state RFRAs except South Carolina’s; in fact, Louisiana and Pennsylvania, explicitly exclude for-profit businesses from the protection of their RFRAs.
The new Indiana statute also contains this odd language: “A person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a violation of this chapter may assert the violation or impending violation as a claim or defense in a judicial or administrative proceeding, regardless of whether the state or any other governmental entity is a party to the proceeding.” (My italics.) Neither the federal RFRA, nor 18 of the 19 state statutes cited by the Post, says anything like this; only the Texas RFRA, passed in 1999, contains similar language."
i thought this would start happening.....gonna be a quiet summer in indiana. i hope this doesn't drive the smaller venues out of business.
http://wishtv.com/2015/03/30/wilco-cancels-indy-concert-because-of-rfra/
Wilco cancels Indy concert because of RFRA
Voting with how one spends their $ can be very effective in changing social policy. The bottom line is, well, the bottom line.
In the end, the $$$$ or rather loss of $$$$ along with bad PR will triumph over right wing ideology. If it doesn't, then Pence and his lackeys are dumber than dirt. In the year 2015 we shouldn't even be having these discussions. I hate how people hide behind some false preoccupation in the name of religion.
alloak - Are you reading & listening? It's reasons like this why your beloved conservatives will be on the outside looking in at a dem in the WH come next prez election. Bobby Jindal said after last prez election that the GOP needs to stop being the stupid party. Thanks, Governor Pence for carrying the water for stupidity. We know that much of what politicians do is driven by pure calculation. I guess either he forgot about this or felt this would add more votes than votes lost. Moron or genius? Either way - a bigot.
NCAA president Mark Emmert to Doyel on RFRA: 'If we have to move events, we'll do it'
"I hate to see the Final Four, which you fully appreciate as this extraordinary event — second only maybe to the Super Bowl, and certainly the dominant collegiate event in America — get caught up in a political debate," Emmert told me Monday. "This is a very, very important political issue. Make no mistake about it. It's why we take it so seriously. But it would have been preferable obviously to not have it connected to the Final Four."
NCAA president Mark Emmert to Doyel on RFRA: 'If we have to move events, we'll do it'
"I hate to see the Final Four, which you fully appreciate as this extraordinary event — second only maybe to the Super Bowl, and certainly the dominant collegiate event in America — get caught up in a political debate," Emmert told me Monday. "This is a very, very important political issue. Make no mistake about it. It's why we take it so seriously. But it would have been preferable obviously to not have it connected to the Final Four."
The Final Four, which happens next weekend, is not going anywhere. All the tickets have been sold, fans have made plane and hotel reservations and there is no way to move this on short notice.
yea but the women's final 4 is here in 2016 and the men's is back in 2020? the NCAA left kansas in 99? i think, can't remember, there were political reasons they left then.
These RFRA's have been around for decades and Christians have yet to establish segregated lunch lines. And the Indiana RFRA does nothing to allow discrimination.
This is nothing but the latest attempt of the Left to demonize a group it doesn't like, or views as the opposition. That's all it is.
Settle down, brothers and sisters. There are not hordes of Christians hiding around every corner, waiting to refuse services to any certain group. It's gonna be alright.
Regardelss of the intent of the law, which was to shield people from government on matters of individual decisions based on religious grounds, its been hijacked into a discrimination against gays bill , so it needs to be repealed.
Affarmitive action had unintended consequences too, but it was ok because the group on the receiving end of the discrimination was not a liberal cause.
Regardless of the intent of the law, which was to shield people from government on matters of individual decisions based on religious grounds, it's been hijacked into a discrimination against gays bill , so it needs to be repealed.
I agree with the second part of that sentence.
Regardless of the intent of the law, which was to shield people from government on matters of individual decisions based on religious grounds, it's been hijacked into a discrimination against gays bill , so it needs to be repealed.
I agree with the second part of that sentence.
Me, too.
As for the first part, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits, among other things, the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion and/or impeding the free exercise of religion. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights. So why, over 200 years later, is such a law even necessary?
