I almost posted this last night but decided it wasn't important, oops. it has nothing to do with the attack today and maybe everything to do with it as it relates to French society.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30694811
6 January 2015 Last updated at 19:26 ET Share this pageEmail Print Share this page
Furore over novel depicting Muslim-run FranceFrench writer Michel Houellebecq (November 2014)
Houellebecq argues that the idea of a Muslim party changing the face of French politics is perfectly plausible
The BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris reports on the publication of a provocative new book which depicts France as an Islamicised country where universities are compelled to teach the Koran, women are made to wear the veil and polygamy is lawful.
In the year 2022, France has continued its slow collapse and a Muslim party leader takes over as the country's new president.
Women are encouraged to leave their jobs and unemployment falls. Crime evaporates in the banlieues. Veils become the norm and polygamy is authorised.
Universities are made to teach the Koran.
Anti-Islamic scare-mongering?
Torpid and decadent, the population reverts to its collaborationist instincts. It accepts the new Islamist France.
A wall covered with mosaics the Paris Mosque (April 2007) Parts of France have a rich Islamic culture, with the Paris Mosque widely admired for the beauty of its architecture and its minaret which is 33m high
Muslims demonstrate in Strasbourg, eastern France, over satirical images of the Prophet Muhammad (11 February 2006 ) Houellebecq says French Muslims are conservative by background and do not feel at home with the left - especially since the introduction of gay marriage - but are equally alienated by the political right Such is the characteristically provocative plot of the new novel by France's most famous living author Michel Houellebecq.
Soumission (Submission) goes on sale on Wednesday, but for a week now the arguments have been raging.
Is the book anti-Islamic scare-mongering in the guise of literature? Does the excuse that it is fiction have any validity if the book gives succour to the far-right?
Or on the contrary, is Houellebecq simply doing the job of an artist: holding a mirror to the world, exaggerating perhaps but honestly telling the deeper truths?
The row is all the more intense because Islam and identity are already at the heart of a fierce national debate in France.
Runaway success
Last year the anti-immigration National Front made an extraordinary leap forward by winning a national election - for the European Parliament - for the first time.
Nearly 150 Muslim war graves n Ablain-Saint-Nazaire, France's biggest war cemetery, desecrated by vandals (April 2008) Outbreaks of Islamophobia sometimes happen in France - these Muslim war graves were desecrated by vandals in 2008
A person holding the latest book by Michel Houellebecq, Soumission, in Paris (16 December 2014) Soumission (Submission) goes on sale on Wednesday, but for a week now the arguments have been raging
Its leader Marine Le Pen is a serious contender for the 2017 presidential election. Indeed in Soumission, it is in order to keep Le Pen out that the mainstream parties rally behind the charismatic Mohammed Ben Abbes.
Background to the new novel is also shaped by the runaway success of the book Le Suicide Francais (French suicide), by right-wing journalist Eric Zemmour, one of whose themes is also France's moral collapse in the face of newly-confident Islam.
Critics of Houellebecq say his novel lends intellectual credibility to the theses of Mr Zemmour and other "neo-reactionaries".
For Laurent Joffrin of the left-wing newspaper Liberation, Houellebecq is "warming Marine Le Pen's seat at the Cafe Flore" - legendary haunt of the left-bank philosophers on the river Seine.
"Whether or not it is the intention, the novel has a clear political resonance," wrote Mr Joffrin.
"Once the media furore has died down, the book will go down as a key moment in the history of ideas - when the theses of the far right made their entry - or re-entry - into great literature."
Others have gone further. Television presenter Ali Baddou said that "this book makes me sick... I felt insulted. The year kicks off with Islamophobia disseminated in the work of a great French novelist."
From the other side, supporters say Houellebecq is addressing issues which the metropolitan and left-leaning elite pretend do not exist.
'Stupidest of religions'
Philosopher and member of the Academie Francaise Alain Finkielkraut described Houellebecq as "our great novelist of what might come to be".
France's far-right National Front party leader Marine Le Pen (22 December 2014) The premise of the novel is that the the mainstream parties of France rally behind the charismatic Mohammed Ben Abbes in order to keep Marine Le Pen out of power
"By raising the eventual Islamisation of France, he is touching where it hurts - and the progressives are all crying Ow!"
Houellebecq, who once described Islam as the "stupidest of religions", has denied any desire to be provocative.
In interviews ahead of publication, he said the idea of a Muslim party changing the face of French politics was perfectly plausible - though he agreed he had accelerated the timeframe.
"I tried to put myself in the place of a Muslim, and I realised that, in reality, they are in a totally schizophrenic situation," Houellebecq told the Paris Review.
Muslims, he said, were conservative by background and did not feel at home with the left, especially since the socialists introduced gay marriage. But equally they felt alienated by a political right that rejected them.
Enlightenment demise
"So if a Muslim wants to vote, what's he supposed to do? The truth is, he's in an impossible situation. He has no representation whatsoever," he said.
Pupils attend an Arabic course, on 16 October 16, 2012, in Saint-Leger-de-Fougeret, central France. The book paints a picture of the Koran being compulsory at French universities Houellebecq said the wider theme of his book is the return of religion to the centre of human existence, and the demise of the Enlightenment ideas that have prevailed since the 18th Century.
"The return of religion is a worldwide movement, a tidal wave… Atheism is too sad… I think right now we are living through the end of a historic movement which began centuries ago, at the end of the Middle Ages," he told Le Figaro.
In the end Houellebecq implies in his interviews that the return of religion is a good thing - he says he himself is no longer atheist - and that even Islam is better than the existential emptiness of Enlightenment Man.
"In the end the Koran turns out to be much better than I thought, now that I've re-read it - or rather, read it," he told Paris Review.
"Obviously, as with all religious texts, there is room for interpretation, but an honest reading will conclude that a holy war of aggression is not generally sanctioned, prayer alone is valid. So you might say I've changed my opinion.
"That's why I don't feel that I'm writing out of fear. I feel, rather, that we can make arrangements. The feminists will not be able to, if we're being completely honest. But I and lots of other people will."
At the end of the book Houellebecq's hero Francois has himself "made arrangements" - going back to his teaching job at the Islamicised Sorbonne, tempted by a pay increase and the promise of several wives.
I like this quote....I'd post it in another thread also but I think i'll let that one pass.
Statement from Salman Rushdie, British author
Posted at 16:51
The Booker Prize-winning writer has released the following statement: "Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms.
"This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.
"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.
"'Respect for religion' has become a code phrase meaning 'fear of religion.' Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."
I like this quote....I'd post it in another thread also but I think i'll let that one pass.
Statement from Salman Rushdie, British author
Posted at 16:51
The Booker Prize-winning writer has released the following statement: "Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms.
"This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.
"I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.
"'Respect for religion' has become a code phrase meaning 'fear of religion.' Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."
EXACTLY.
Sounds like a Muslim version of Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale , an extrapolative fiction depicting a crippled USA under a conservative Christian regime. Christianity and Islam both become oppressive tyrannies without the limitations of secular government. Same sh*t, slightly different package.
A return to witch-burning? Yaaaaayyyyyy !!!!!!! Free public entertainment !!!!!!!
an extrapolative fiction depicting a crippled USA under a conservative Christian regime.
We have already had that here in America and it was not fiction. It was called the Bush Administration. 😛
an extrapolative fiction depicting a crippled USA under a conservative Christian regime.
We have already had that here in America and it was not fiction. It was called the Bush Administration. 😛
__________________________________________________
President Bush saw evil for what it is and went after it.
His predecessor was too busy trying to quell his self-inflicted scandals to pay attention and the result was the 9/11 attacks.
His gutless coward successor doesn’t even have the balls to call it what it is: Islamic Extremist Terrorism.
The liberals are invited to join the world and fight evil.
They will of course follow their usual response; comment on it and go back to protesting against police officers.
"When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race. America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect. Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value."
President George W. Bush
Speech at the Islamic Center of Washington, DC
September 17, 2001
"When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race. America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect. Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value."
President George W. Bush
Speech at the Islamic Center of Washington, DC
September 17, 2001
😛
The ironic thing about Mule's rant is my post had nothing to do with Muslim's or terrorism.
The ironic thing about Mule's rant is my post had nothing to do with Muslim's or terrorism.
_______________________________________________
The ironic thing about the above is the poster hasn't a clue about the root of the problem.
The ironic thing about Mule's rant is my post had nothing to do with Muslim's or terrorism.
_______________________________________________
The ironic thing about the above is the poster hasn't a clue about the root of the problem.
The ironic thing is that Mule ridicules other posters education and intelligence.
lol i think all 3 of you don't understand irony. 😛
lol i think all 3 of you don't understand irony. 😛
That is a matter of opinion. I would guess, however, that we all can spell furor. 😛
lol i think all 3 of you don't understand irony. 😛
How very ironic.
lol i think all 3 of you don't understand irony. 😛
That is a matter of opinion. I would guess, however, that we all can spell furor. 😛
you can take the spelling errors up with the BBC, I typically just cut and paste and don't edit articles for spelling errors. 😛
lol i think all 3 of you don't understand irony. 😛
That is a matter of opinion. I would guess, however, that we all can spell furor. 😛
you can take the spelling errors up with the BBC, I typically just cut and paste and don't edit articles for spelling errors. 😛
The spelling error is in the thread title. You didn't cut and paste that. 😛
Furore over novel depicting Muslim-run France
its the title of the headline in the article. if you clicked the link you would see that.
sigh....is there a point to this conversation?
Furore over novel depicting Muslim-run France
its the title of the headline in the article. if you clicked the link you would see that.
sigh....is there a point to this conversation?
Relax. I was having a little fun. I guess it was fun for you as long as you were on the giving side of it. 😛
Furore over novel depicting Muslim-run France
its the title of the headline in the article. if you clicked the link you would see that.
sigh....is there a point to this conversation?
there will be when gina shows up.
oh...wait a minute...maybe not. 😛
Furore over novel depicting Muslim-run France
its the title of the headline in the article. if you clicked the link you would see that.
sigh....is there a point to this conversation?
there will be when gina shows up.
oh...wait a minute...maybe not. 😛
Stop crushin' on Gina... 😛
"When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race. America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect. Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value."
President George W. Bush
Speech at the Islamic Center of Washington, DC
September 17, 2001
What an evil Christian fundamentalist he was. How intolerant of him.
"I did forget that this statement was made by Bush and attributed it to Obama in my reply. However I opposed it then. Many of us who became Bush supporters felt he was too apologetic to Islam in his efforts to not inflame the Muslim world agqainst us do to our totally correct response to the events of 9/11. I do not approve of that statement."
dougrhon, in response to the same Bush speech quote, 9/12/12
"I did forget that this statement was made by Bush and attributed it to Obama in my reply. However I opposed it then. Many of us who became Bush supporters felt he was too apologetic to Islam in his efforts to not inflame the Muslim world agqainst us do to our totally correct response to the events of 9/11. I do not approve of that statement."
dougrhon, in response to the same Bush speech quote, 9/12/12
Now that is amusing.
I almost posted this last night but decided it wasn't important, oops. it has nothing to do with the attack today and maybe everything to do with it as it relates to French society.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30694811
6 January 2015 Last updated at 19:26 ET Share this pageEmail Print Share this page
Furore over novel depicting Muslim-run FranceFrench writer Michel Houellebecq (November 2014)
Houellebecq argues that the idea of a Muslim party changing the face of French politics is perfectly plausibleThe BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris reports on the publication of a provocative new book which depicts France as an Islamicised country where universities are compelled to teach the Koran, women are made to wear the veil and polygamy is lawful.
In the year 2022, France has continued its slow collapse and a Muslim party leader takes over as the country's new president.
Women are encouraged to leave their jobs and unemployment falls. Crime evaporates in the banlieues. Veils become the norm and polygamy is authorised.
Universities are made to teach the Koran.
Anti-Islamic scare-mongering?
Torpid and decadent, the population reverts to its collaborationist instincts. It accepts the new Islamist France.
A wall covered with mosaics the Paris Mosque (April 2007) Parts of France have a rich Islamic culture, with the Paris Mosque widely admired for the beauty of its architecture and its minaret which is 33m high
Muslims demonstrate in Strasbourg, eastern France, over satirical images of the Prophet Muhammad (11 February 2006 ) Houellebecq says French Muslims are conservative by background and do not feel at home with the left - especially since the introduction of gay marriage - but are equally alienated by the political right Such is the characteristically provocative plot of the new novel by France's most famous living author Michel Houellebecq.Soumission (Submission) goes on sale on Wednesday, but for a week now the arguments have been raging.
Is the book anti-Islamic scare-mongering in the guise of literature? Does the excuse that it is fiction have any validity if the book gives succour to the far-right?
Or on the contrary, is Houellebecq simply doing the job of an artist: holding a mirror to the world, exaggerating perhaps but honestly telling the deeper truths?
The row is all the more intense because Islam and identity are already at the heart of a fierce national debate in France.
Runaway success
Last year the anti-immigration National Front made an extraordinary leap forward by winning a national election - for the European Parliament - for the first time.
Nearly 150 Muslim war graves n Ablain-Saint-Nazaire, France's biggest war cemetery, desecrated by vandals (April 2008) Outbreaks of Islamophobia sometimes happen in France - these Muslim war graves were desecrated by vandals in 2008
A person holding the latest book by Michel Houellebecq, Soumission, in Paris (16 December 2014) Soumission (Submission) goes on sale on Wednesday, but for a week now the arguments have been raging
Its leader Marine Le Pen is a serious contender for the 2017 presidential election. Indeed in Soumission, it is in order to keep Le Pen out that the mainstream parties rally behind the charismatic Mohammed Ben Abbes.Background to the new novel is also shaped by the runaway success of the book Le Suicide Francais (French suicide), by right-wing journalist Eric Zemmour, one of whose themes is also France's moral collapse in the face of newly-confident Islam.
Critics of Houellebecq say his novel lends intellectual credibility to the theses of Mr Zemmour and other "neo-reactionaries".
For Laurent Joffrin of the left-wing newspaper Liberation, Houellebecq is "warming Marine Le Pen's seat at the Cafe Flore" - legendary haunt of the left-bank philosophers on the river Seine.
"Whether or not it is the intention, the novel has a clear political resonance," wrote Mr Joffrin.
"Once the media furore has died down, the book will go down as a key moment in the history of ideas - when the theses of the far right made their entry - or re-entry - into great literature."
Others have gone further. Television presenter Ali Baddou said that "this book makes me sick... I felt insulted. The year kicks off with Islamophobia disseminated in the work of a great French novelist."
From the other side, supporters say Houellebecq is addressing issues which the metropolitan and left-leaning elite pretend do not exist.
'Stupidest of religions'
Philosopher and member of the Academie Francaise Alain Finkielkraut described Houellebecq as "our great novelist of what might come to be".
France's far-right National Front party leader Marine Le Pen (22 December 2014) The premise of the novel is that the the mainstream parties of France rally behind the charismatic Mohammed Ben Abbes in order to keep Marine Le Pen out of power
"By raising the eventual Islamisation of France, he is touching where it hurts - and the progressives are all crying Ow!"Houellebecq, who once described Islam as the "stupidest of religions", has denied any desire to be provocative.
In interviews ahead of publication, he said the idea of a Muslim party changing the face of French politics was perfectly plausible - though he agreed he had accelerated the timeframe.
"I tried to put myself in the place of a Muslim, and I realised that, in reality, they are in a totally schizophrenic situation," Houellebecq told the Paris Review.
Muslims, he said, were conservative by background and did not feel at home with the left, especially since the socialists introduced gay marriage. But equally they felt alienated by a political right that rejected them.
Enlightenment demise
"So if a Muslim wants to vote, what's he supposed to do? The truth is, he's in an impossible situation. He has no representation whatsoever," he said.
Pupils attend an Arabic course, on 16 October 16, 2012, in Saint-Leger-de-Fougeret, central France. The book paints a picture of the Koran being compulsory at French universities Houellebecq said the wider theme of his book is the return of religion to the centre of human existence, and the demise of the Enlightenment ideas that have prevailed since the 18th Century.
"The return of religion is a worldwide movement, a tidal wave… Atheism is too sad… I think right now we are living through the end of a historic movement which began centuries ago, at the end of the Middle Ages," he told Le Figaro.
In the end Houellebecq implies in his interviews that the return of religion is a good thing - he says he himself is no longer atheist - and that even Islam is better than the existential emptiness of Enlightenment Man.
"In the end the Koran turns out to be much better than I thought, now that I've re-read it - or rather, read it," he told Paris Review.
"Obviously, as with all religious texts, there is room for interpretation, but an honest reading will conclude that a holy war of aggression is not generally sanctioned, prayer alone is valid. So you might say I've changed my opinion.
"That's why I don't feel that I'm writing out of fear. I feel, rather, that we can make arrangements. The feminists will not be able to, if we're being completely honest. But I and lots of other people will."
At the end of the book Houellebecq's hero Francois has himself "made arrangements" - going back to his teaching job at the Islamicised Sorbonne, tempted by a pay increase and the promise of several wives.
France has been anti-Islamic, the fervor and even legislation passed over the last ten years particularly under the Sarkozy administration. Women were forbidden to wear the veil in public, they were made to feel like outcasts, and it was stated quite clearly that Islam was at odds with social norms in modern French society. They do not want Muslims in their country. True Islam , as True Christianity or True Judaism does not force people to convert or die, if people are allowed to study the Quran, and can easily obtain one, some of the wrong ideas about Islam would be dispelled.
People should not fear religion, they should fear their Lord, and is is he they should strive to please.
As for France, if Britain falls, and there are more masjids than churches so that is quite possible, France may come under Islamic belief and eventually governance. They have a socialist governance now, and they are quite happy with their culture. They fear being overrun by Muslims, and part of that fear may be justified. It depends on who is running things. Isis or some other group.
I do think satire related to religion is ill mannered. Religion, prophets, messengers and God himself deserve respect. Whatever your faith or beliefs are, you don't want somebody knocking yours, don't knock theirs.
isn't france the most muslim country in europe? ok western europe?
[Edited on 1/9/2015 by LeglizHemp]
I was going to bed when I asked the above question.
France opens its doors to allow immigration to Muslims seeking to escape repressive regimes, looking for better economic opportunities or more tolerant social conditions feel they are not treated fairly by the country they fled to.
that pretty much much explains the problem right there Gina if that is what you believe. I find that to be a pretty amazing statement.
[Edited on 1/9/2015 by LeglizHemp]
lol and another thing, could I move to a muslim country and live a lifestyle that I enjoy now? hell no I couldn't.
I would be told assimilate or die.
[Edited on 1/9/2015 by LeglizHemp]
Furore over novel depicting Muslim-run France
its the title of the headline in the article. if you clicked the link you would see that.
sigh....is there a point to this conversation?
there will be when gina shows up.
oh...wait a minute...maybe not. 😛
Stop crushin' on Gina... 😛
gina knows I'm just pokin' around and goofin' on her... 
after all, as our resident foreign relations expert, meteorologist, spiritual adviser, conspiracy theorist and soothsayer, she is well aware of my antics...
France opens its doors to allow immigration to Muslims seeking to escape repressive regimes, looking for better economic opportunities or more tolerant social conditions feel they are not treated fairly by the country they fled to.
This drives me crazy. Everyone comes to free countries and then the next thing they hate the freedom and want to change it into the type of country they came from.
France opens its doors to allow immigration to Muslims seeking to escape repressive regimes, looking for better economic opportunities or more tolerant social conditions feel they are not treated fairly by the country they fled to.
This drives me crazy. Everyone comes to free countries and then the next thing they hate the freedom and want to change it into the type of country they came from.
I certainly don't condone what happened in France, or defend it as justified, but I think you are making a very broad generalization based on a small faction of fanatics who perpetrated the killings.
While I think the Muslim's certainly need to try to assimilate into the French culture as best as possible expecting them to give important religious, like prohibiting women from veiling their faces, and cultural beliefs is a very difficult proposition.
my coments were in response to Gina
quote:
___________________________________________________________________________________
France has been anti-Islamic, the fervor and even legislation passed over the last ten years particularly under the Sarkozy administration. Women were forbidden to wear the veil in public, they were made to feel like outcasts, and it was stated quite clearly that Islam was at odds with social norms in modern French society. They do not want Muslims in their country. True Islam , as True Christianity or True Judaism does not force people to convert or die, if people are allowed to study the Quran, and can easily obtain one, some of the wrong ideas about Islam would be dispelled.
_____________________________________________________________________
